Bishop Estate Discussion
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-08-24
Guests: Randall Roth (host); Charles Kekumano (Monsignor; Broken Trust co-author); Gladys Brandt (retired principal, Kamehameha Schools; Broken Trust co-author); Samuel P. King (U.S. District Judge; Broken Trust co-author); Walter Heen (retired Judge, Intermediate Court of Appeals; Broken Trust co-author)
Duration: 1:05:10

[00:00:05] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic this morning is Kamehameha Schools Bishop Estate. I had hoped as guest we would have one or more Bishop Estate trustees or one or more of the Supreme Court justices who select Bishop Estate trustees. Unfortunately, the trustees and justices declined our invitation without explanation.
[00:00:48] Randall Roth: But don't touch your radio dial because I've got what I think will be a fascinating show for you. With me in the studio this morning are three of my favorite people in the whole world, Gladys Brandt, Sam King, and Monsignor Kekamano. Gladys, currently, is supposed to be retired, but she's on the go more than anyone I know, so I'm not too sure about this retirement stuff. Anyway, for many years, she was principal of Kamehameha School for Girls and Director of the Secondary Division of Kamehameha Schools. She also served as chairwoman of the University of Hawaii Board of Regents. Gladys, good morning.
[00:01:21] Gladys Brandt: Good morning.
[00:01:21] Randall Roth: Sam King is a former state Circuit Court judge, and currently is senior federal District Court judge. Sam, good morning.
[00:01:27] Samuel P. King: Good morning.
[00:01:28] Randall Roth: Monsignor Kekamano is a retired Catholic priest who has served on numerous commissions and boards, including terms on the University of Hawaii Board of Regents and the Police Commission. Currently, Monsignor is chairman of the Queen Liliuokalani Trust. Normally, we use only first names on this show, but I don't even know Monsignor's first name, so if he doesn't mind, I'll just call him that. Monsignor, is that okay with you?
[00:01:50] Charles Kekumano: That's fine. Thank you. Good morning.
[00:01:52] Randall Roth: Good morning. I thought what we would do is just briefly have each of you say a few things about what you think is central to this Bishop Estate controversy, I'll call it. And then a little bit sooner than normal, we'll go to calls, and we'll just encourage people to ask any question, make any comment they would like to. We'll do our best to respond, and we'll just try to hear as many voices this morning as possible. Sam King, there's been a tremendous controversy, at least the media, on a daily basis, has been talking about some aspect of what I'm calling the Bishop Estate controversy. What's something that is central to the whole thing, something that you would like to put on the table initially in this conversation?
[00:02:34] Samuel P. King: Well, I'm not too sure it's the most important issue, but I would like to clarify that when we came out with our statement Broken Trust, we were talking about the trustees, not the trust. And of course, it's a good technique for the trustees to answer that we were attacking the Bishop Estate. But we're not attacking the Bishop Estate. We think the trustees are the focus of what we've been saying, and that everything was lovely before they started interfering, particularly in the educational program. They haven't done so well in the even in the making money and the trust. So I think it's important to bear that distinction in mind that it's not the estate that's under attack, it's the current trustees.
[00:03:21] Randall Roth: Well now, in in watching the TV news or reading in the newspaper, the responses to what we've been saying haven't been coming from the trustees. They've been coming from people who work for the Bishop Estate. What I'm hearing you say is that that's not appropriate.
[00:03:37] Samuel P. King: Absolutely not appropriate. It's similar to their spending money of the estate to try to prohibit the intermediate sanctions law from going through. That was a law that would help the estate. So no justification at all for spending estate money. It's as though they got in an automobile accident and got sued. They can't hire they can't use Bishop Estate personnel to help them defend a tort action for instance.
[00:04:07] Randall Roth: So so the point you're making, I think, is that this controversy is directed at the five individuals as trustees, or really four, as trustees, and that there's been a pattern of and we're seeing a continuation of Bishop Estate funds being used for the personal benefit of these trustees.
[00:04:26] Samuel P. King: Precisely, and that's why I think I said back early on in the first program that I was on that they were squandering the estate's money for personal purposes.
[00:04:38] Randall Roth: Okay. And also you and I right before the show started, we were chatting a little bit about this five CEO structure that they have, and that's especially timely because if if listeners haven't looked at their advertiser yet, this morning's advertiser has what I think are a couple of really good stories. They've obviously put a lot of resources into addressing this in in a responsible and helpful way. Tell us just a little bit about your thoughts, and then we'll move on.
[00:05:05] Samuel P. King: Well, I think one of the silliest things that they are maintaining is that they have five CEOs at the Bishop Estate. One is enough. In fact, most corporations would like to get rid of their one CEO. But five CEOs in charge of each in charge of a small department, getting that kind of money, that's absolutely silly.
[00:05:30] Randall Roth: Some people say if everyone's in charge, no one's in charge.
[00:05:33] Samuel P. King: That's right, and that's what's happening. So what they're doing now is is delegating their responsibilities to one member who is the CEO in charge of this thing, and the CEO in charge of that thing, and understand one of the trustees is in charge of legal matters. Getting $900,000 a year for charge of legal matters. They could get a lawyer to do it for nothing.
[00:06:05] Randall Roth: Okay. And we're starting to get calls already. And and folks, please don't call us yet. In fact, those people who call before we've invited calls, we're we're just going to we're not going to take those calls because [unintelligible — audio glitch] topic like this, too often we get people who've got an ax to grind or a bone to pick and they're calling too early so that they're sure in line. So don't call yet. In a little bit, we'll invite calls and then it's just going to be the luck of the draw. Whomever happens to to get through is is the voice that we're going to we're going to be listening to. Monsignor Kekamano, what do you think about this controversy in terms of of what's at the core or what really ought to be on the table right now in this conversation?
[00:06:39] Charles Kekumano: Well, obviously, over the past few months, there've been many criticisms. There's been much gossip about what's happening to the Bishop Estate and to the Kamehameha Schools. Perhaps many of these criticisms are unfair, and if so, let's say so. But if there's any validity to any of these criticisms, I think they should be faced. And if there's any correcting that needs to be done, then let's do the corrections. But you know, Hawaiians have always been very, very tolerant of others and whatever they want to do. And I think Hawaiians have tolerated the problems at Kamehameha School until finally they could tolerate it no more. And I think that's the general opinion in the public.
[00:07:22] Randall Roth: Mhm. You know, the the line in our article back that was published in the Star Bulletin on on August 9th, the line that I've had more people repeat to me is that that two-word statement, no more. Okay. Gladys Brandt, first of all, thank you for being here this morning. Um this morning you said you're not sure how how I got you into this pickle. Um, what what comes first to your mind when we start talking about this Bishop Estate controversy?
[00:07:56] Gladys Brandt: Well, frankly, Randy, I had no idea I'd find myself in this. I won't call it pickle.
[00:08:02] Randall Roth: And and we're talking about the radio show. We're not talking about the article that you coauthored.
[00:08:07] Gladys Brandt: But um I got involved because faculty members were calling me telling me of their unhappiness at school, and being afraid to speak out and I knew them many many years and knew that they wouldn't feel that way if they didn't actually feel that way. And then I became concerned that certainly faculty members find themselves in a harness so to speak, then they're not free to teach. And so I became involved and attended a meeting of Napua Powahi, and there were not there weren't any faculty members there as I recall, but there were parents and past graduates of Kamehameha School, and they too voiced their concerns of what was happening on the hillside, and they were planning for this march.
[00:09:02] Gladys Brandt: And when I saw what was being done and how people were so concerned, I became involved. I went to a meeting at Kwaho Plaza with some of the members of the Napua Powahi Group. And then I felt that I needed to get myself into the fray, if I may use that term, in order to see how we could just settle the situation in order that things come back to normalcy. That's how I became involved. And now you see, I'm not at all schooled on matters investments. And now that this has come on to the table so to speak, I think that maybe if I had to do this over again, Randy, I'd do the same thing although it's not a happy situation for me.
[00:09:55] Randall Roth: Mhm. As as a former principal out there and head of the Secondary Division, um what do you think is going through the teachers' minds and the administrators' minds out there? And there's been a lot in the press about Michael Chun having been mostly for the most part stripped of his his power out there. Um, tell us a little bit about what's going on at the school itself.
[00:10:20] Gladys Brandt: I think right now, because of the airing of the situation, that things the faculty members feel that someone is caring for their welfare. High school students have a sort of uncanny way of letting you know when when they are unhappy. I've attended the song contest and I could see the support they have and the aloha they have for their principal in just their applause. I could I was able to witness that at the graduation, and it was not right in my mind, but I think things are beginning to open up there and I hope and pray that we'll get over this and things will be settled and we get back to normalcy.
[00:11:11] Randall Roth: I didn't attend the Kamehameha School graduation this year, but I'm told that that the President Michael Chun gave a particularly inspiring speech. And I'm told that not only did the students stand up and applaud which occasionally they'll do, I'm told that the entire building almost stood and applauded.
[00:11:33] Gladys Brandt: Very much so. Unprecedented in my mind was that the faculty stood up right after the students and then the the audience did likewise.
[00:11:44] Randall Roth: I can relate to that as a faculty member. We're pretty stubborn about that sort of thing. Sam King.
[00:11:48] Samuel P. King: I just I just wanted to remark about what Gladys said about the faculty feeling that they were uh under pressure. And uh I understood they were told they couldn't speak and they even signed contracts recently not to speak. I don't know if that's true, by the way. But if any of them are uh disciplined for speaking out, there's a possible federal action against those who discipline them because uh the uh Bishop Estate receives federal funds, it's acting uh under the uh aegis of the state of Hawaii, it doesn't exist unless the state of Hawaii allows it to. And so uh there might be some reaction to that and the fact that they signed a contract giving away their constitutional rights is meaningless. That's not that's not binding on anybody.
[00:12:36] Randall Roth: You know, it is amazing, especially with a charitable organization that has ties to both state and federal government receiving monies and and enjoying tax exempt status, for them to try to muzzle their employees like this is is pretty amazing.
[00:12:49] Samuel P. King: Well, it's a violation of federal law.
[00:12:51] Randall Roth: Gladys?
[00:12:52] Gladys Brandt: You know, one of the nicest things I think that's come out of this was this beneficiaries. I was amazed to hear uh members of the Napua Powahi Group uh relating that the trustees state that the beneficiaries are not the people, not the parents, not the students, but the buildings. And as a school principal, I couldn't imagine that that this was what I was aimed or paid to do, was to take care of motors and stones and wood and what have you, but I notice in the papers of late, which to me is a very plus aspect that now it is termed by the Attorney General that the beneficiaries are certainly the students, the people that I involved.
[00:13:45] Gladys Brandt: I think that's a very plus thing that has come out of this.
[00:13:48] Randall Roth: I I do too. I think maybe the or the trustees might be a little bit concerned because the buildings that they were hoping were the beneficiaries don't sue trustees for any kind of breach, but individuals sometimes do. Monsignor, uh any thoughts you'd like to share on this?
[00:14:04] Charles Kekumano: Except that I think that the argument was that they will kept speaking about, I want the school this, I want this for the school and so forth, and so they evidently put the emphasis on the school rather than on why the school exists.
[00:14:18] Randall Roth: Well, folks, uh you've been listening to Sam King, Gladys Brandt, Monsignor Kekamano. And we're at the time in the hour where we're going to encourage people to call and ask their questions and make comments. Our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. If you tuned in late, we're talking about Kamehameha Schools Bishop Estate, specifically all of the uh the controversy that's going on. It's multifaceted. It's hard to keep up with what's appearing in the newspapers and what you can see on the TV, but we strongly encourage every member of uh the state or every citizen of the state, every member of individual communities within this state to do their homework because there there just isn't a single more important topic I think than than this that we could be talking about.
[00:15:06] Randall Roth: If you tuned in late, want to catch the show in its entirety tonight on KIFO at 8 o'clock, that's 1380 AM, you're going to be able to to hear the show in its entirety. Also, if you watch channel 2 News tonight, KHON at 6 and 10, we have uh Hans Kolo, the cameraman, and Rod Antone, and I think they're going to be doing uh a report on the show. And in fact, I'm told there's a another crew outside and and I'm not sure what station they're from, but if you're watching your TV tonight, there should be something on the um uh show today. I just was told by our technical wizard through my microphone that it's Channel 9 that's also here, so either Channel 2 or Channel 9.
[00:15:44] Randall Roth: Um, okay, we're going to start taking calls, and uh the first one up is Catherine from Nuuanu. Good morning, Catherine.
[00:15:50] Catherine: Good morning. Good morning. Uh Princess Poahi's will has served KSB well for over 113 years. The school has never produced more or better students. The will expresses Poahi's desire. Who are you to change it so radically? Who are you to try KSBE on your radio show and in the newspaper?
[00:16:10] Randall Roth: Okay, Catherine, stay on stay on the line. I want to respond to that, and um and then we want to let you make your other points. Um Monsignor Kekamano, are we attacking the will?
[00:16:21] Charles Kekumano: Certainly not. There's no intention of having any uh attack on the will itself. The question is to be sure that the will is being followed in these days.
[00:16:30] Randall Roth: So it goes back to what Sam was saying about this is directed at the individuals, the trustees, that it's not directed at all at the will or Kamehameha Schools or Bishop Estate.
[00:16:42] Charles Kekumano: Correct.
[00:16:43] Catherine: Yeah, I don't think it's fair to try the trustees on your new show or in the newspapers. I don't think it's fair.
[00:16:50] Randall Roth: Okay, and tell me what you mean by try them. In other words, should we should we not be raising our concerns in any form?
[00:16:56] Catherine: Well, I guess you know, I I feel that we don't know anything that goes on in any of the private school in the state. But boy, we sure know what's going on there at Kamehameha school. And I just I just feel very uncomfortable. As a Hawaiian, I feel very uncomfortable about what's going on. I'm not happy about this situation. It doesn't make me feel good. I I'm waiting. I'm hoping that Judge Yim is going to come out with layer all the cards on the table, so we'll understand better. That's what I'm hoping for.
[00:17:23] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you, Catherine. Sam King.
[00:17:27] Samuel P. King: Could I uh remark about what Judge Yim is retained to do. His report has nothing to do with what we raised. He's not going to be looking in as to to the questions of whether the trustees have violated their trust by self dealing, uh by uh taking inappropriate action, by not meeting and making decisions by a majority of the five. He he's not going to get into that at all. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure what he's going to do, and I've seen the questionnaire that he sent out to people, and uh doesn't look to me like he's going to get very much information out of it.
[00:18:06] Randall Roth: Well, we we can we can hope that he's going to accomplish something, but it's real clear that what he's focused on is um while related to what we wrote about, uh we didn't address that at all in our article. We feel that the concerns are are much deeper and broader than what he's been asked to look into. Let's go to Peter on the Big Island. Good morning, Peter.
[00:18:29] Peter: Peter, are you there? Yes, I'm here.
[00:18:31] Randall Roth: Okay.
[00:18:32] Peter: Uh just a follow up to your uh uh last discussion. It seems to me that the what I've heard and read is that the Internal Revenue Service the state has assigned a master every year to review their the trustees' uh activities. Uh beyond that, you have Judge Yim, who you've just discounted his activities, and beyond that, we have the recent uh you know legal probe by the again by the State Attorney General. See how that turns out. And it just seems very premature to request
[00:19:00] Speaker 1: the four of the five trustee you sped down. I don't understand why you uh that seems very premature to me.
[00:19:07] Speaker 2: Well, let's let's address that and Peter stay on the line because [unintelligible — audio glitch] sense that you've got more points to make. Um Sam King, you want to say anything about the call for having that debate. I think the Attorney General has already said that um if she moves, she's going to move cautiously and doesn't see any requirement to request immediate removal.
[00:19:28] Speaker 3: So, um, you know, more of mine have gotten into the act and that's good.
[00:19:33] Speaker 2: Okay. Peter?
[00:19:34] Speaker 1: Well, it was just your point. I think I believe that it was that you folks went down to see uh and see if four of the five could be removed and I uh don't think that that was uh just shows the spirit of it. I don't It seems like you have a personal vendetta against four of the five trustees.
[00:19:49] Speaker 2: Oh uh Peter, hang hang on. Um [unintelligible — audio glitch] couple things on that and and Sam King's King has a point, and then then I want to make a point if I can remember it. Go ahead, Sam.
[00:19:58] Speaker 3: When one of the trustees admits in the in the newspapers that he's been dealing against the the bishop estate uh representing somebody that's selling something to the bishop estate, and says that it's okay because I recused myself from voting as a trustee, you know, it boggles the mind.
[00:20:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, the Peter, the the
[00:20:22] Speaker 1: These are these are legal matters that you're bringing up and I I think there is a a forum for them. I don't believe that the forum for such legal matters is over a radio show or in the newspaper.
[00:20:31] Speaker 2: Peter, do you think the Attorney General would be looking into this now if we had not written our article and if we had not uh started a public conversation about this?
[00:20:40] Speaker 1: The Attorney General has been looking through the master has had a constant look at the uh estate and if there were malfeasance, uh then then the Attorney General wouldn't be doing the job.
[00:20:51] Speaker 2: Well, you you should talk to the you should talk to the masters sometime in terms of just uh what their power is and what their charge is and to what extent they've gotten cooperation. Do you think the IRS needs to be uh brought in a little more than they already are? You know, Peter, this is our greatest fear. And and I think if there's one thing that has pushed us to to write our article and to carry on this conversation is that we fear that if this isn't done, if significant change isn't made, that tax exempt status is sooner or later going to be lost and that would be disastrous to schools and and that is our concern. We don't want that to happen.
[00:21:29] Speaker 3: Sam King has a response. Peter, I'm going to come back to you. I know you've got more to say, Sam King. Well, I uh kind of lost what he was arguing about, maybe monthly.
[00:21:39] Speaker 2: Montse or anything to add?
[00:21:41] Speaker 3: No, I think that they there may be a misunderstanding on the role of the master. The master does look at the the estate and then make a report. But you know the the hugeness of the bishop estate makes it almost impossible for a man to look at the one-year performance and then come out with a a very accurate statement. So it's not very thorough. And uh by and large, we've had nobody ever question it because most people look upon it as somewhat inconsequential. I think someone once mentioned most of the work of the masters is a question of mathematics. How much they spent and how much they didn't spend. Well, I know what I wanted to to say now. Um, following up on what Montse said, the master used to be chosen by the Attorney General. And then in the 1970s, the probate judge took it away from them. So which is another piece of of a Little history. patronage.
[00:23:01] Speaker 2: Okay. So it isn't true that the uh Attorney General has been looking into it since 1970 something or other. Yeah. In fact, no Attorney General in the 113 year history has gone after the trustees. Never. Okay. So, and we're we're one of the few states, one of six states remaining that have an appointed Attorney General. Uh, and and I think everybody understands when you have an appointed Attorney General, even if that is a real good lawyer and and an independent individual, has a practical matter, it's much more a part of the political process than than in in other jurisdictions. Uh, Peter, why don't you make another point or two and then then we need to move on.
[00:23:36] Speaker 1: Well, I just I just think that uh the proper place to do an investigation is in the uh either in the courtroom if it gets to that or in the quiet uh of a chamber where you can really get down and bear down on on uh uh numbers and [unintelligible — audio glitch] irregularities that you might find. Continually fluffing up uh the uh newspaper as it's been doing is uh it is not helping uh KSBE and its mission. And I don't feel and also one more point and that is many people have uh said that all of the students are students, parents, alumni, teachers, staff, etc, etc. That's not all of the parents, all of the students, all of the alumni, or all of the staff, and I think you folks know that and I think it's uh uh just trying to uh use a little uh bit of rhetoric to uh presume too much.
[00:25:08] Speaker 2: Okay. Peter, we we appreciate your call this morning. Thank you. Um and I would just add, I I too would agree with Peter that that I would like to see this in a courtroom. I think everybody understands that that the rules that are followed once you get into a courtroom are designed to provide a level playing field and they're designed to enable each side to get as much information about the other side as is possible. And especially because of the secrecy with which the uh Bishop estate has been run in recent years, I think the courtroom is the only place where someone's going to get to the bottom of exactly what has happened and figure out the appropriate action to take.
[00:25:45] Speaker 4: Uh, we go to Bill from uh Come on.
[00:25:48] Speaker 5: How are you doing? Good morning, Bill. Let me make a couple comments about the previous caller and the caller before that. It seems to me like they're more embarrassed than caring about the truth. I mean, it's the lady who said it makes me uncomfortable. Well, for God's sakes, if we didn't discuss things that made us uncomfortable, we'd still be living back in the Stone Age. There's a very real possibility that crimes have been committed here, and for God's sakes, we're not trying. We're starting to talk about it. Excuse me, isn't there first Amendment?
[00:26:14] Speaker 2: Bill, that's uh that's an awfully good comment, but it ended with a question mark. So, I'll see if I'll see if any of our get I think they feel like you've uh you've said it all.
[00:26:25] Speaker 4: Anything anything to add to that, Bill?
[00:26:26] Speaker 3: Well, he mentioned God, but we have we have a real representative. We here so we're covered.
[00:26:31] Speaker 4: Bill, thanks for your call this morning. Um folks, you're listening to Price of Paradise Radio show. We do have a few open lines, which uh surprises me based upon the flood of calls that we had two weeks ago when we addressed this topic. So we do have room for you. If you'd like to get in and let us hear your voice, please call us at 955-8821 or from a neighbor island 1-800-955-8821. John from Kikiki. Good morning, John.
[00:27:58] Speaker 6: Good morning, sir. Curious point regarding Mr. King, Mr. Heen and the gang. How come this never arose when they were in their full dressed uniform in the courts?
[00:28:14] Speaker 4: Oh John, John, let me let me respond to that question. Um a judge and and for listeners say key, he he says Mr. King and Mr. Heen, but but Sam King currently is a a federal court judge and Walter Heen, who is our fifth coauthor uh was a a state court judge for many years. John's question is is basically saying why doesn't the judge now or the former judge then why why didn't they look into this when they had the robes on and and could do it in a courtroom setting? And John, uh a judge cannot on his own do that sort of thing unless it happens to be the probate court judge and and it's in the context of reviewing a master's report or an annual counting or something like that.
[00:28:57] Speaker 4: The Attorney General has what's called parent's patry and what that means is that in Hawaii, it's the Attorney General's job and and perhaps only the Attorney General's job to determine when something has to be brought into the courtroom when it affects a charity. So, a judge could be sitting there anxious to take a look at this and yet powerless to do so until the appropriate party, in this case, the Attorney General, brings the action.
[00:29:25] Speaker 6: Second note.
[00:29:27] Speaker 4: Oh, oh, John John, I'm I'm going to be corrected by the judge here, I think. Sam King.
[00:29:31] Speaker 3: No, no. Well, he said anxious to take it. Of course, if anything like this came before the federal court, I'd have to disqualify myself.
[00:29:37] Speaker 4: Okay.
[00:29:38] Speaker 6: Second point, aren't all these fellows the ones that have dinners together?
[00:29:43] Speaker 4: Uh, when you say these fellows, who are you referring to?
[00:29:46] Speaker 6: The whole gang. That from the King, Heen, to Peters. I mean, where does these people all have their uh dinners?
[00:29:52] Speaker 4: Oh, you're you're saying the the authors of the Broken Trust article are are somehow closely associated with the trustees that the article is criticizing? Interwoven. Interwoven.
[00:30:05] Speaker 6: With the trustees?
[00:30:07] Speaker 4: Uh, John, I'm getting some uh incredulous looks in the in the studio. I I guess it's safe to say that that none of the five coauthors feel as though they're closely aligned with the trustees. Um, I guess we'll just have to leave it at that, John.
[00:30:22] Speaker 3: God save us all. Okay. Have a good day.
[00:30:25] Speaker 4: Thank you, John. You know, John's call reminds me, two weeks ago when we did this show, somebody called in, I think it was the first caller, and asked a number of questions, and I neglected to address one of those questions. And it basically was, if I remembered correctly, and I I listened to the tape and this is the reason I know we missed it. It was something to the effect, do any of the five co-authors have some sort of financial interest in bringing down four of the current Bishop Estate trustees? Uh and I know I don't. Uh Gladys, financial interest in this? Not at all. Uh, Sam King, Montsenor? No. No. Okay. Well, Walter couldn't make it with uh this morning but uh but I I feel real confident to uh well I'm sure he doesn't. [unintelligible — audio glitch] am too. But again, somebody asked the question two weeks ago and I I neglected to respond just inadvertently and [unintelligible — audio glitch] wanted to say that, Montsenor.
[00:31:17] Speaker 3: But again, this is not a question of personal attacks. Uh we were interested in the basic problems. Uh, is the Bishop estate being run correctly? Uh when all the gossip is around, it begins to raise some smoke and you wonder whether there is fire there. Mm-hmm. Well, actually, there's more than smoke. I mean, they're actually admissions by the trustees as to what they've done.
[00:31:40] Speaker 4: Well, this is the amazing thing. If if you just take what we put in our article and it's not been refuted even though Dickie Wong wrote a 4,000 word or so response, it it's not been refuted, the They never denied a single These very very serious charges and if there is an answer that we don't know about and and again, we're the first to admit that there is this shroud of secrecy around how things are done over there. If there is a response, if there is a way of explaining these things that we have addressed, uh we would be the first to to acknowledge that. We would like to hear it. Um that's one of the reasons we invited the uh trustees to come on the show today with their own moderator, as opposed to me, and to uh respond to these charges or to simply share their own perspectives about how the Bishop estate is is run.
[00:38:00] Randall Roth: the teachers and the students and and others at the school as individuals. Gladys Brandt.
[00:38:06] Gladys Brandt: um there was that March George if you recall, Napu tried to get their voices heard. Uh that was at a standstill. We couldn't go to speak with faculty at Kameme because that was just allowed. Faculty was afraid to speak out at that time, George. Uh I think I'm answering your question. Maybe I could go a little further. I tried uh to speak with one of the trustees. As a matter of fact, I had lunch with her, found her very personal and tried to well, I did suggest that she along with Patium, call in maybe the National Association of Independent schools to come and look at the lay of the land and Kameme and uh interview people there and come out with recommendations because their recommendations would be nationwide and well-accepted. But uh nothing came to that. I think you are registering your concern that this is gone as far as it has gone and I share your concern. But uh we did try to do what you suggested.
[00:39:29] George: Yeah, I all I'm saying is this article does not help what is happening at Kame today with the students and everybody up there, along with Mike Chun.
[00:39:40] Randall Roth: Well, you know you know because George let go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
[00:39:44] George: Well, there there's a uh because everything is now being focused on the trustees. And there is I I see no support for Mike Chun. I see no support for the teachers and for the students who are going to school. Right now, they've already started.
[00:40:00] Randall Roth: Yeah. George, let me just say something and then then ask others to to comment. When the the group of us got together and and talked about whether to write the article, whether to take that that step, um we anguished over it. Uh it was not a black and white sort of thing and we didn't do it with with big smiles on our faces. Um we have fears that that things won't work out the way we would like them to work out but inaction sometimes is is riskier than action. Um my other Sam King.
[00:40:36] Samuel P. King: Well, I would like to point out that shortly after our article came out, the teachers who had not gotten the contract yet, whereas all the other teachers in the state had gotten contracts, all of a sudden got a contract with 4% raise, and Mike Chun all of a sudden got another year's contract. Now, of course, they may have said they were planning to do that all along, but you know, if it uh if it uh talk if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, and it lays duck eggs, it's a duck.
[00:41:08] Randall Roth: Um George, why don't you make a another point and and then we're going to have to move on but but [unintelligible — audio glitch] really appreciate the issues you're raising you're raising. Go ahead.
[00:41:16] George: Well, just there's only one thing and I I know Miss Brandt will will know what I'm saying. And there what I'm uh what I want to say is Ohana. Mahalo.
[00:41:32] Gladys Brandt: Mahalo, George. Thank you, George. Gladys, can you for for those of us that uh that didn't understand that, can you tell us what he's saying the spirit of it at least? That he has love for and we all do, and he wants he wants this to be peaceful and to end quickly. And I think we want that to happen also. That was very nice, George.
[00:41:58] Randall Roth: That was, George. Thank you very much. We go to and I'm not sure of my son's writing. I think it's uh Wati from Kona. Yeah, he wrote it right. Good morning, Wati.
[00:42:08] Wati: Good morning. Hello? Yes, you're on the air, Wati. Yes. I just wanted to uh I just wanted to bring to the attention if they don't already know it about land and power in Hawaii. Uh I don't know if any of the judges ever read the book, but Oh, we all own it. Okay. On page 49 through I believe uh 50 63, it does indicate how the trustees are paid. And I I think it's important uh to realize that they've tried to lower the fee until someone was promised development rights of the lands of Bishop State, and that's how the trustees got or are getting the money that they're getting through the percentages that they get. Yeah. I I don't remember that that part of the book. Um but just so listeners understand the the reason the fees are so high is that there is a statute that's uh enacted by the state legislature that provides for a formula, a formula that basically measures activity as opposed to success. Um it's been criticized by many in every year for a long time. Somebody has had a bill in the legislature to to change it. It's uh anachronistic, and yet for whatever reason, the politics have been such that those bills to change it have just not gotten anywhere. Um there are some people who think maybe this coming session will be different. Uh another thing that I wanted to bring out that I I didn't see it mentioned, but isn't Miss uh Mrs. Lindsey a first cousin of um Mr. Wahe?
[00:44:05] Randall Roth: I don't know and I'm not sure that that's really relevant.
[00:44:08] Gladys Brandt: Well, it is how an appointment was made. Well, what, I think all of it has to be looked into, I I think when you are choosing a trustee, you have to choose a person who is going to um is is knowledgeable in what they're doing for the trust.
[00:44:29] Samuel P. King: I think that's much more important, yes.
[00:44:32] Randall Roth: Yeah, we we would certainly agree with that, Wati. Um, [unintelligible — audio glitch] one of the points of this show is that we want everybody's voice to be heard, and and we assume that they're going to be different points of view. We feel that what a person brings to the job is terribly important, but the fact that they might have a a relationship by blood or marriage with someone else and, you know, shouldn't by itself either put them in the seat or keep them from from taking the seat. Sam King.
[00:44:57] Samuel P. King: Maybe I just say that [unintelligible — audio glitch] really think that having a politician as a trustee is not a bad idea. Two is probably one too many, and three, if they had appointed Wati, would have been absolutely terrible. Mhm, that's true. Okay, but one is not too bad. Wati, thank you very much for your call. We appreciate it.
[00:45:19] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about the Bishop Estate and with me in the studio is Mon Senior Kimono, Sam King, and Gladys Brandt. We're taking calls. The number is 955-8821 or from a neighbor island 1-800-955-8821. We go to Thomas from Waikiki. Good morning, Thomas.
[00:45:41] Thomas: Good morning.
[00:45:43] Randall Roth: You're on the air.
[00:45:44] Thomas: My uh concern about this, uh, I am not a Hawaiian heritage but uh, looking at the purpose of the estate, which is to operate the Kameme schools, it seems to me that the point of having a board of trustees is to have a group of if you will, wise persons overlooking the operation of the estate and the schools. And what they've done is carve that estate up into five fiefdoms, in which each trustee acts unchallenged. Therefore you don't have the board of wise persons overseeing the operation and acting as a check on the operations of CEOs, you've got five CEOs acting unchallenged, and in the case of the schools now, you have a school that is operating, uh in a climate of fear and intimidation. I can't see how in the world you can have a school in which teachers are afraid to teach and students are intimidated.
[00:46:52] Randall Roth: Mhm. Thomas, we appreciate uh your sharing your thoughts with us this morning.
[00:46:56] Thomas: Thank you.
[00:46:57] Randall Roth: Thank you. We go to Peter from Kailua. Peter, you're on the air.
[00:47:01] Peter: Thank you, Randy. Uh, it's a wonderful show. And the question I have is whether or not the uh a method of appointment of trustees of charitable trust like as a Bishop estate which flows from the will, is that really legal when the statute invests the power to appoint trustees and the probate judge? Uh, Sam King, let's talk you know, this is is um not simple. This is this is a complicated issue. But Sam, can you give us a a quick response to Peter's excellent question? When the original when the will was written over 100 years ago, the Supreme Court of Hawaii, the Kingdom of Hawaii was the probate court also. Now, when we became a territory, that uh the probate law was passed and it no longer was and and the appointment power was challenged. Well, of course the then Supreme Court justices, three of them, decided that no, that was all right. They they did have that power. Then we became a state, and even more so the probate power was no longer in the Supreme Court. And yet the justices I I one of the reasons I'm here, I filed that suit 26 years ago with Tom Gill and the then Justices of Supreme Court, five people now, uh decided that no, there was nothing wrong with it. And they point to a a um opinion by the judicial whatever it is, I can't commission, yes, that said that they uh they could do it. But but the bottom line of that opinion was providing they didn't do anything unethical. So it's it's sort of like a rat biting its own tail. And of course, they went ahead and did something unethical when they fired the board that they had picked, which the opinion specifically mentioned was a very good idea, and then picked somebody without any board input, uh you know, blue blue panel or whatever it was. Mhm. So [unintelligible — audio glitch] question of who's going to decide that the probate probate court has the power, if you go up to the Supreme Court and the justices who have that power they think, uh reverse the probate court. We were in a terrible position. It's it's not a good situation. Peter, uh anything else? No, thank you very much. Thank you, Peter. We go to Don from Waikiki. Good morning, Don. Good morning, Aloha.
[00:49:24] Don: Aloha. I um also a graduate of Kamehameha, and uh I have been listening to the program and I have to admit to being a little confused about uh first of all, the assertion that the five of you are not trying to um break the trust, and yet I have read and I have heard that you are uh fully in support of of um the will's provision which allows for the appointment by the Supreme Court of the trustees to be overturned. Now I know that Judge King just attempted to explain a little bit about that, but that's what confuses me too because earlier in the program, Judge King also seemed to malign the um probate court and in its wisdom now appointing the the masters as being I'm not sure what his inference was but uh it was almost as though there was some collusion and that the the appointment of the master by the probate court was to be discounted. And yet, is this what I'm hearing that you want that probate court now to be in charge of of appointing trustees, even though that's in violation of the will? Well, that's that's the only court that has jurisdiction in the state of Hawaii to do that. And the court that was named in the will doesn't exist anymore. The the Supreme Court of the Kingdom of Hawaii just doesn't exist, and we say, well, what was the Supreme Court at that time? It was the probate court, and the history of our system is that then and now that the probate court is the one that has jurisdiction for this. If you if you're if your question, Don, is is are we not concerned at all about the possibility that the probate court won't do any better at trustee selection than the justices have done? We're very concerned about that, and and we don't see one way of doing this that will guarantee to everybody that it's going to be done right. But for a lot of reasons, and and I understand your confusion because this is not a simple issue. Whether you're on one side of the issue, another side of the issue, or or a third side of the issue that hasn't been mentioned today, it is not simple. And anyone who thinks it's simple is is it it hasn't yet caught on to just what's inherent in this question. Your question's a great one, and all we can do is share with you our position and invite the other side, invite the trustees to step forward and to address these issues. Well, I I have a follow-up to that if I may. Um it does seem a bit ludicrous, if you are saying then that all the decisions on the responsibilities of the Supreme Court of the Kingdom of Hawaii has not um transferred as we have transferred governments Oh no, that's a completely different issue. It is. Yes. Well, okay. If I may while I have you, I I just got my morning run just so I could get to a pay phone because the Well, we appreciate uh your weighing in on this. I um I wanted to ask about whether or not you feel that what you as a group of five did was I guess the only word that I can think of is ethical in taking what was obviously inside confidential information to the State Attorney General um in a very public way. I mean, it was like with whistles and drums leading that you were doing this. Um when in fact, if there was wrongdoing, whoever provided you with that inside confidential information should have taken the responsibility to have either filed suit or gone through other some some other non-public uh way uh than what has been uh enacted. I don't think uh that you should read that statement again because every statement that wasn't already admitted by a trustee had a name attached to it. Well, I guess what I'm hearing is that though No, and and Sam Sam is talking about the the specific charges against the trustees. You know, there were some things having to do with the Judicial Selection Commission, for example, where we would uh talk about an unnamed source because they just were fearful of putting their their name in the paper. But if you go down the list of the accusations that we put in our article against the trustee, uh there are names and and our names are right there. Um nobody's hiding behind a tree on this one, Don. So you're saying that whatever you took into Marjorie Bonster and took several hours in discussing and she would not later disclose, was all out there in public? I mean, this is what is now led to her saying there's going to be a several months investigation, which she won't disclose what the issues are, and I'm glad she didn't but she yeah, she shouldn't at this point in time. Um I we are we're happy with the way it's progressing. She talked to others. Yeah, she's talked to to many individuals, many groups, and and I guess all, I would say personally Don, is that if if a person cares about the beneficiaries of of any charitable trust, and right now we're talking about Kame schools, Bishop Estate, if you care about the wellbeing of the beneficiaries, and if you personally are convinced that breaches of trust are being committed, if you're convinced that the beneficiaries are getting a raw deal, the way I was brought up, you have a moral obligation to step forward and do what you can. But but there are ways to do it. So to me, given given the way I was brought up, what we're doing is is not unethical but [unintelligible — audio glitch] understand what you're saying. I I hear you, I'm glad you're saying it. I I just disagree with you, Don. I just feel like whether you realize it or not, the damage to the trust is going to be far-reaching because of this kind of media feeding frenzy that's going on that you have contributed to. Well, [unintelligible — audio glitch] hope not, Don, but but we wouldn't be so presumptuous as to say we we know not, but but we sure hope not. Don, thank you for your call. We've We've got a number of people who have been waiting and we're down to 10 minutes but we're going to to get to everyone and if someone wants to try to get in line, maybe we'll get through these and and take some more as well. Our number is 955-8821. We go to Molly from Makiki. Good morning, Molly. Molly, are you there? Yes, good morning. Good morning. Uh I've been waiting. Thank you so much. I wondered if you wouldn't not sure it would be a big help if you could publicize again the exact terms of the will we keep hearing Oh, Molly, thank you. I I was supposed to tell everybody about this and and I just got so interested in the conversation, I forget. We have on the internet uh an an address, it's it's popweb.org. And so for those of you who aren't familiar with the computer, ask somebody to help you find popweb.org and what you'll find right there on the home page is the entire will. And it's the the reconstructed will that will reflect the the codicils as well as the original will itself. And we encourage everyone to go to the will itself and to read exactly what is there. And I guess I would just emphasize what Mon Senior was saying earlier. We're not attacking the will. We're not saying ignore the will. We're not attacking Kame Schools Bishop Estate, um we simply are saying in our opinion the trustees have
[00:57:00] Randall Roth: committed some breaches of trust that, in all probability, should result in their being removed. But at this point in time, it's subject to investigation and and we're looking forward to seeing what happens from the investigation, Sam King.
[00:57:12] Samuel P. King: One of the papers printed excerpts from the will.
[00:57:16] Randall Roth: That's right. The Star Bulletin, I think, about a week or so ago.
[00:57:19] Samuel P. King: The Advertiser or the Bulletin, one or the other. Yeah.
[00:57:21] Randall Roth: So if you can't find the internet site, if you don't have an old newspaper, um, call the radio show right after we go off the air. We'll get your name and address and we'll make sure you get a copy of the will.
[00:57:33] Molly: That will be fine. Thank you.
[00:57:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Molly. We go to Carrie from Kaimuki. Good morning, Carrie.
[00:57:39] Carrie: Oh, good morning. Uh, first of all, I'd like to say that I do think that education is probably one of the most important things that could be passed down to the people of Hawaii, kind of to to better the situation of everyone. And I have uh two questions I have for you about this. The first is one of the points I would have most liked to have seen addressed in the article that uh five of you wrote, would have been talking about the failure of what I would call kind of the system that chose the current trustees to recognize with one exception, the kind of I would say what should have been the success of the educational process by choosing more trustees who had graduated from the Kamehameha schools.
[00:58:28] Carrie: That as you've seen with your one exception of Trustee Stender, someone who had been associated with the school. How did all the feeling towards Oh, by not choosing them. It seems like the Supreme Court Justices were saying, jeez, we have no qualified applicants from the school.
[00:58:45] Randall Roth: Mhm. Somebody who's been there, in all probability, is going to understand what the legacy is is all about. And Gladys, I think I noticed that you were agreeing with uh with this first point.
[00:58:55] Gladys Brandt: Yes, I I agree with that completely. I think that that would have been most helpful, but it didn't turn out that way.
[00:59:04] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, would you like to make one more point and then we need to move on? One more quick point. The second would be what I think would be most helpful to come from the process which I think you started, would be if it would be at all possible for there to be essentially something like a constitutional convention made up of the bishop estate, not that, I'm sorry, Bishop estate, Kamehameha schools, graduates and beneficiaries to charter direction for the estate, because I think the financial resources of Bishop estate, plus the capabilities of its of its graduates, if they were actually brought together, would be a force for change in Hawaii, uh, which would be truly revolutionary for this state.
[00:59:47] Randall Roth: Carrie, I appreciate your calling. We're going to have to move on. Sam King has a response that I need to move on. I just wanted to to make a point that which I should have made long earlier. The reason I got into this was because of Na Pua a Ke Ali'i Pauahi.
[00:59:59] Samuel P. King: If they hadn't started it, um, I would have just sat back and said, you know, let it go. But then we keep hearing that the teachers are under duress, they have signed contracts, not to talk, and they can't meet on the campus. And, uh, you know, so much is going on. And one of the trustees is throwing something at another trustee. Then I decided that I'd get involved.
[01:00:20] Randall Roth: You know, so much has gone on, I've I've forgotten, but clearly with me, that's that's what pushed me in in this direction. Yeah. So we support Na Pua a Ke Ali'i Pauahi.
[01:00:29] Gladys Brandt: Well, that's how I got into it also. Yes.
[01:00:30] Randall Roth: I I think what they've done is is inspiring. Uh, far more courageous, I think than than what we did. We we followed in behind them.
[01:00:38] Samuel P. King: Well, they suffer possible retaliation. We don't. We're almost untouchable. We hope we're untouchable. Except for the law school prof. Well, we hope we're untouchable but the people that marched with Na Pua, they're they're not and and we really admire those folks. Gladys.
[01:00:54] Gladys Brandt: I was just going to say, we didn't march either. They marched.
[01:00:58] Randall Roth: That was a hot day too. Okay, let's go to Oh, a treat. Bud Smiser is calling. Bud is a columnist for the Star Bulletin and uh another one of my favorite people in the whole world. Good morning, Bud.
[01:01:12] Bud Smiser: Good morning. I think I hear some of the callers asserting a sort of a right to privacy for the estate. The estate is the biggest public institution private institution in Hawaii. Uh, its educational arm is out and can directly affect the one fifth of the population row, or Hawaiians. Its land policies and so on, affect everybody in Hawaii. So, it if if there's if they're concerned about serious mismanagement of the estate, that seems to me as a statewide concern, uh, going far beyond any right of privacy. And I personally think that the broken trust article that ran on August 9th is the most needed piece of investigative reporting I have seen in 51 years in Hawaii.
[01:01:58] Randall Roth: Not bad for a bunch of amateurs anyway, huh? Good. Thank you, Bud. Um, we're running down. We just have a couple of minutes and uh let's let's take as many calls as we can. Francis from Kauai. Good morning, Francis.
[01:02:11] Francis: Good morning. Uh, I only want to make a comment. Um, it's uh a wonderful institution and children who graduate from Kamehameha have the right to be proud. But I feel and have felt for many years that a very important uh aspect of uh Princess Pauahi's will has been neglected. And that is that there has not been a sufficient effort to reach out to the poor and needy children, orphans, uh children who uh need the help that the school can give them. And I feel that this has not been done adequately and I have had for years
[01:02:57] Randall Roth: Francis, and in fact, they're the ones who were specifically mentioned in the will.
[01:03:01] Francis: They were. I'm aware of it. I have read the will in the original Hawaiian.
[01:03:05] Randall Roth: Right. Francis, thank you. We really appreciate your call. You know, folks, and and I have to apologize where our lines are full right now, but we're we're just playing out of time. If uh if the people who are on the line would would like to stick around and and chat, I'll be happy to um to talk to them off the air in just a few minutes. But we're down to less than 2 minutes and I just want to to thank our guests. Um number one, it's I just I have really enjoyed being associated with uh with these people. Gladys Brent. Uh, anything you'd like to add to what we've discussed this morning?
[01:03:38] Gladys Brandt: No, I was a little bit hesitant in arriving coming here Randy, but I'm glad I did.
[01:03:44] Randall Roth: A little hesitant, you said? How did I get you into this pickle?
[01:03:48] Charles Kekumano: Monseigneur Kekumano, anything you'd like to add? Only that I detect a a certain amount of animosity on some people with regard to what we've done. As if we were deliberately attacking the will or the estate. Uh, we were trying to respond to a problem and uh we felt that um in order to respond, we would have to put as much of the facts on the table as possible.
[01:04:14] Randall Roth: Mhm. Sam King, you get to wrap it up.
[01:04:16] Samuel P. King: I just have to agree with whatever was said. And I would like to note that the reason uh Walter is not here is because he's on the mainland. And I think last time you had a meeting, I was on the mainland, so we do have to move around. Tomorrow I'll go. Okay.
[01:04:32] Randall Roth: Gladys says it's her turn. Uh Gladys Brant, Sam King and Monseigneur Kekumano, thank you so very, very much. Folks, if you tuned in late, you want to see the show in its entirety, hear it tonight at 8:00 on KAFO, that's 1380 AM. You can do that. KHON channel 2 news tonight at 6 and 10. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.