Public Discourse
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-01-01
Guests: Dolores Foley (Professor of Public Administration, University of Hawaii); Peter Adler (Executive Director, Hawaii Bar Foundation)
Duration: 0:34:01

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Professor of Public Peter Adler, a fellow who helped establish the Neighborhood Justice Center of Honolulu and the Judiciary Center for Alternative Dispute Resolution and currently is executive director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation. Delores, could you tell us just a little bit about this TV programming that you and some others are putting together?
[00:00:17] Dolores Foley: Well, the program is called Hawaii Forum confronting issues in an island society and we've just completed the first program which what are the limits to growth and how do we find them? We began well, over a year ago when we started talking. I think we started talking in Peter's living room about the real concern we all had about that there was not enough discussion of public issues. And so Dick Pratt, my colleague at the program in public administration, and that we started talking with other people and trying to decide on a format and we came up with this format which is modeled after the Constitution that delicate balance.
[00:00:56] Randall Roth: Peter, it sounds like you're trying to rile people up.
[00:01:00] Peter Adler: I think so. I think actually we are trying to do that. We're just one of a number of things going on in the community that are either trying or are in fact riling people up. And I frankly think that's a good thing. I think there's a mood out there right now, people want to think hard about issues, they want to engage some of these the problems we have in our community and Hawaii Forum is just one of lots of mechanisms to do that. Price of paradise that you added is quite is another one and there are lots of others.
[00:01:27] Peter Adler: So I think we're there's something going on in our state today and where there are important issues and there's a need to confront those issues and take a look at them.
[00:01:36] Randall Roth: Is there an agenda other than just getting people to talk more about the issues?
[00:01:40] Peter Adler: I think everybody's got lots of different agendas. I think in this particular case, we don't come at this with a particular political view one way or the other. For example, in this first series, we were confronting issues about development and growth and environmental preservation and the need to balance economy and environment, and I don't think Delores or Dick Pratt or myself entered into it with a particular slant on that. What we were committed to was having really good engaged conversation on that that teases out the complexities, because these are real tough complex issues, and we wanted to get those issues up and on the table.
[00:02:10] Randall Roth: Delores, can you tell us a little bit about that first episode? Uh, when it aired, uh, on what stations and um, who was involved?
[00:02:18] Dolores Foley: Well, it aired in December, uh December, um, 16th and 18th on KTN and also was broadcast on Hawaii public radio.
[00:02:29] Randall Roth: Oh, wonderful.
[00:02:31] Dolores Foley: And we had 14 different panelists that represented all different perspectives. We had, um, um, ex-politicians, former politicians, we had Hannibal Tavares, we had Marilyn Bornhorse. Yeah, why would you have former politicians rather than people who are in political office now?
[00:02:49] Dolores Foley: Well, we wanted to do was have people that could discuss things freely, that wouldn't be vested in a particular situation or in doing any grand standing. And generally what we wanted, and that's why we used a hypothetical, we wanted to explore what the perspectives are that underlie the different issues and, and so in order to explore that more fully, we wanted to get to get some distance from that. And so that people would understand the multiple perspectives that come to any issue. In this case was a growth issue.
[00:03:21] Peter Adler: Well, one of the things that was important in that though is, uh, to make sure that we have a balance of all the different interests around the table. So we had people, for example, like Pat Tummins, who is a very strong spokesperson for environmental issues, and on the other hand, we had people who could speak very competently and just as tough about the the need for good quality development issues. So there was a balance around the table, that was very, very important in that, just as there is in the whole community. We need these different voices.
[00:03:46] Randall Roth: Um, who else was involved?
[00:03:51] Peter Adler: Well, for example, we had, uh, Meredith Ching and, uh, Dan Davidson. Uh, Meredith is the vice-president at Alexander and Baldwin, and Dan Davidson heads the land use Research Foundation. Uh, Chuck Friedman, who is, uh, vice-president for corporate relations at Hawaiian Electric company, and we actually had cast him into the role of the director of the department of development and economic economic development and tourism.
[00:04:12] Randall Roth: Oh, so they were playing roles.
[00:04:14] Peter Adler: They were they were cast loosely into some roles, yeah. Some of them were playing roles, but they were roles that were familiar to them. Uh, Chuck, obviously, is a good example of someone who's been in state government for many years, understands, uh, the, you know, the role of, of DBDT, and could speak competently to the issues that that department faces.
[00:04:31] Randall Roth: So what did this group conclude, uh, what are the limits to growth?
[00:04:35] Dolores Foley: Well, the point wasn't to conclude anything, wasn't come wasn't to come to any solution, but was to get everyone to see all that goes into all the multiple perspectives, the whole range, and get people to discuss that. And one of the things we'd like to do is to have this go into schools and to stop it and to get people to see um, what they think about these different aspects.
[00:04:59] Dolores Foley: And and also for people that are in decision-making roles to understand what are the, what drives the other perspective? Because I don't think we listen to that, any of us, to all the different perspectives that come to any issue. And in this case was a growth issue.
[00:05:12] Randall Roth: I uh, I watched the show and enjoyed it very much. I thought it was extremely well done. I especially got a kick out of Jim Lahy. Uh, he was playing the role of of Kimo, the bartender who had his Kimo's bar on the North Shore that perhaps would have been directly affected by uh, this proposed development. Um, can you tell us a little bit about uh, how he responded to the possibility of this major development in his area.
[00:05:35] Peter Adler: Well, it was interesting. He was kind of a lightning rod or a barometer for what was going on for the mood of the entire, uh, uh, group in some ways. There was a lot, as the project unfolded, uh, the project proposal in this hypothetical scenario. Essentially there is a company that proposed to build a large retirement community on the North Shore. This is all hypothetical. And uh, everybody had different views on this thing. Jim was one of the people from the community who was saying, gee, we're going to have this massive new thing coming into the neighborhood, we're going to lose the quality of our old way of doing things and I don't think I like this very much.
[00:06:06] Peter Adler: So Jim was a spokesperson for many of the kinds of resistances that any development project would meet from adjacent land owners and adjacent communities. But what was interesting was as [unintelligible — audio glitch] scenario unfolded, one of the things that we did was we put a couple of wild cards in there. One of those wild cards at the end was a change in the economy a downturn in the economy, and when we went back to the group and said, group, if uh, if the economy gets worse than it is right now, how does that change the way you start thinking about this project?
[00:06:34] Peter Adler: And Jim was one of the first people who said, gee, you know, maybe uh, maybe I got to rethink this because I'm an oppose of this, but I want my kids to have a place to work and I want them to be able to live here and so, so it kind of Jim Jim was terrific. He was really uh, you know, a spokesperson I think for for the real cross currents that go on in everybody's thinking.
[00:06:50] Randall Roth: My reaction as a viewer was um, that this process is a lot more complicated than I realized. When you hear Marilyn Barnhorst respond how a councilwoman might approach this and and you hear um uh Hannibal Tavares talk about uh how the the mayor might approach this and you go down the list, especially when you get to the environmentalists and the people who are concerned about uh quality of life as measured in a variety of ways. And you find, gee, this is not something that can be done quickly and perhaps can't be done at all if uh if you're going to have the community supporting this.
[00:07:22] Peter Adler: One of the interesting things about this, I think one of the underlying, um, how should I say, complexities that underlies this is how everybody feels somewhat victimized by the process. I mean, the developer sort of feel ganged up on and beat up on by everybody. The politicians feel misunderstood. The community people and the environmental uh spokes people feel very much like they're out of the loop and not part of the conversation.
[00:07:44] Peter Adler: So it in a sense this was kind of a microcosm, and and teases that out. Everybody was frustrated. Everybody's frustrated with the the process and unhappy and worried about [unintelligible — audio glitch] future and whether the outcomes will really uh, do the right kind of balancing and is the game a level playing field? Those are the undercurrents that were starting to come out.
[00:08:01] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and my guest this week are Delores Foley, UH Professor of Public Administration, and Peter Adler, Executive Director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation. Well Delores, why do we need a program like this in Hawaii?
[00:08:16] Dolores Foley: Well, one of the things I want to emphasize, we just think that this is the beginning of the process because it didn't offer any solutions, but what we have to do first is to get informed about, as you said, none of us probably, many of us around that table didn't realize the complexity of the issue. And that's true for many issues.
[00:08:34] Dolores Foley: The point is we have to come better informed. I think we need programs like that to do this, and we have to promote dialogue among many groups, and one of the things that we'd like to see is many more groups getting together to discuss issues like this, maybe in a format like this, just as a beginning.
[00:08:53] Randall Roth: Other than have it air on on, you know, the public TV or or KHNL or whatever, um, how are you going to use this particular program to to get conversation in the community?
[00:09:05] Dolores Foley: Well, we are we're having discussions with a number of people. One of the ideas is to to um, offer it to neighborhood boards and to other community groups. Um, there've been a number of uh, different groups that have called in and asked for tapes because at the end of the program it says, tapes are available for educational and other institutions that want to use it. So, in any way that they would want to use it.
[00:09:16] Randall Roth: If one of our listeners, a school teacher or a neighborhood board member or whatever, would like to get a hold of the tape, who would that person call?
[00:09:21] Dolores Foley: They call the public administration program at 956-8260.
[00:09:44] Randall Roth: Peter, um, why is it that here in Hawaii, um, people like you have to work hard to, to get the community talking about these sorts of things? Uh, is it that way everywhere or, uh, is there something unique to Hawaii?
[00:09:57] Peter Adler: I got my own view on this, and I think that there are some, uh, reasons why we don't have better public discussion on public issues. And I think, uh, there's a couple of them. One of them has to do with the legacy of the plantation era and the monarchy. I mean, the history is one of of political elites controlling the conversation. I don't see that negatively because it's just it's a reality.
[00:10:20] Peter Adler: And um, you know, people have very often been in danger when they when they speak their hearts about real issues. So we don't have a political tradition here that uh, tends to allow that kind of conversation to go on. We tend to have uh, more conversations that are sort of behind closed doors or in the hallways at the legislature or in the capitol or in the corridors of power.
[00:10:40] Peter Adler: There's another take on this too that I have and I it's a speculation. But I think we have, uh, we don't have a town hall tradition here as you might have in New England or even where I grew up in Chicago 25 years ago. Um, you know, we just don't have those kinds of discourse traditions where people uh kind of engage each other and really roll up their sleeves and go at the issues hard as they can, and then walk away. They shake hands afterwards and walk away.
[00:11:03] Peter Adler: The the the Pacific traditions and the Asian traditions mitigate against public confrontation. And I think part of the the confusion is that we don't confront the issues because we're afraid to confront people. And in a small island, in a microcosm society like we live in, those can, you know, have repercussions. But I think we need to find ways to talk about the issues without necessarily saying, oh, he's a bad person because he holds a different view.
[00:11:26] Randall Roth: You used you used the word confusion. Uh Delores, I know previously in talking to you, you commented that there's a sense of alienation. Is is that related to what Peter was just describing?
[00:11:36] Dolores Foley: I think it's it's very related. I think one of the the problems that we have is that uh people do feel alienated from the system and and they don't know they don't think there's any point in trying to get involved. And I think that's a problem and I think it's something that, you know, one of the things that we've talked about before, um, is that we have to have more participation in the system and
[00:12:01] Randall Roth: They they feel there isn't a point because they're powerless to change anything or because nobody's listening to them or I guess perhaps that's the same thing?
[00:12:10] Dolores Foley: Well, I think it's a combination of things. I think that you know, there is [unintelligible — audio glitch] sense that it's there's a system and why that you can't fight the system. I don't think that's only true here. I think that's true in in many places. But I think uh, getting, you know, you see a very few people that, you know, the the percentage of voter turnout is very, very small and and just a general sense of alienation.
[00:12:35] Randall Roth: Peter, you agree alienation?
[00:12:36] Peter Adler: I do. Yeah, I do. I I think that there's a sense of cynicism out there that people can affect any kind of issues uh that affect them. Uh there's a sense of distance between these very tough issues. I mean, for example in this particular tape, we were trying to talk about uh, [unintelligible — audio glitch] balance of growth and preservation kinds of issues. In future ones we want to look at other issues, education and so on. And I think people are sort of cynical that they can have any impact on that for that anything that they might think or say or do will make a difference.
[00:13:04] Peter Adler: I think frankly, we're optimistic that that can happen. And I think uh there's a lot of projects going on around this town. There's a kind of an interesting moment in our local history when there's lots of little undercurrents, things bubbling up where people really are are curious and it's a what I would call kind of a intertidal moment in politics. The the tide's not going out, it's not going in, and there's an opportunity out there. And uh so [unintelligible — audio glitch] tend to be optimistic that these things can have a real valuable long-run effect.
[00:13:30] Randall Roth: Delores, uh, we've been talking about reaching out to individual members of the community. What about our institutions? Uh, aren't they doing what institutions should do? Aren't they affecting the quality of life in Hawaii, and [unintelligible — audio glitch] reflecting, uh individual thoughts?
[00:13:45] Dolores Foley: Well, one of [unintelligible — audio glitch] problems I think is that there's been a a weakening of what what I call the the mediating institutions. It's the the organizations that are between the individual and the state. And these are, you know, the family, the sense of neighborhood, the community. And you know, this is something that that the number of people are concerned about um across the country and saying saying that these institutions have weakened over the decades and this [unintelligible — audio glitch] a problem in into for democracy, that in order for democracy to work that we have to strengthen, we have to build these institutions.
[00:14:24] Randall Roth: I see. Are there other institutions, Peter, that that you think of, uh in terms of of what could be improved here in Hawaii?
[00:14:30] Peter Adler: Well, I I've always been infatuated with the idea of communities on small scales, whether they be neighborhoods and cities, or whether they be clusters out in the rural areas, of communities uh, exerting a a kind of a magnetic force and people come together and they look at the best and they look at the worst, and even people who don't like each other, get around the table or get around the cracker barrel or get around the uh, you know, whatever it is that they get around, and they talk about issues and they think hard about issues. And over time, what distills out of those conversations is some kind of better balance for the community.
[00:15:02] Peter Adler: So I think communities, I mean, I agree with Delores that families are are critical and then we have the political institutions as well, the schools and churches and all these kinds of things are institutions, but I think the the community is a is a really important one because we're we're on the brink of having it lost where people don't live in communities anymore. So I think there's part of this may be trying to sort of get back in touch with some of that and exert influence through those.
[00:15:26] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests this week are Delores Foley, UH Professor of Public Administration, and Peter Adler, Executive Director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation. Well, Delores, tell us a little bit more about Hawaii Forum, specifically what's your next episode? What's next?
[00:15:43] Dolores Foley: Well, hopefully the next episode will be on education. And what we'd what we will do is we'll begin with just as we did in the last program, and that is going out and talking to all different people that are involved in education in all different ways, just as we did with the first one which really represents a collaboration between many individuals that helped us think through the ideas and to develop a hypothetical. So it will take a long time in trying to develop the the conceptual framework for this to what are the questions that we need to to face. So in this one we'll be talking to educators at all different levels.
[00:16:24] Randall Roth: I'd I'd love to listen to that because it seems as though everyone in the community is deeply concerned about the quality of education here and it seems as though everyone is frustrated. Nobody seems to have a real good fix on exactly what's clogging things up, why we aren't getting positive change. Uh you suppose if you got a whole bunch of people around the table, uh the the roadblocks if you will would start to emerge? We'd get a sense for why things haven't been changing?
[00:16:50] Peter Adler: [unintelligible — audio glitch] think we would. I think we would at least start to understand the complexities that underlie those things. I think for example, if you have good, cogent voices for teachers and students and community members and and uh, administrators and principals and government people, all the people who have their spoons in the soup of the education uh, pot, if you have them around the table and we can ask them questions that are designed to sort of illuminate what are the forces that are driving them to take the views that they take.
[00:17:16] Peter Adler: I think that in itself becomes educational. If you can kind of distill that and then say, here, world, here's what all the different players are thinking. And as Delores said, the problem is if you get all of the ones who are actively involved in governance around the table now, they'll probably do a lot of posturing. So we want to find the people who are reflective, who've been in the positions of power or in those cross currents but can stand back from them for a little while and think about them.
[00:17:38] Randall Roth: Someone like Charlie Taguchi after he's served his term as superintendent.
[00:17:41] Dolores Foley: That's right, exactly. That would be that would be what we'd want. I think something that emerged in in the first forum was that I think people that sat around the table learned a great deal. I think people that watched it learned how complex the issue was. But I also think that we tend not to understand the other side or the other sides, and I think something like this can help.
[00:18:03] Randall Roth: It seemed as though the people who took part in that show really enjoyed it. I think they did learn something even though these are folks who have been dealing with issues like this for many, many, many years.
[00:18:12] Dolores Foley: I well, a number of them said so afterwards and and I'm I'm I hope I'm hopeful that the next one will be the same.
[00:18:19] Randall Roth: Well now, earlier you said hopefully there will be a next one and just now you said I'm hopeful. Uh, what's the problem? Why wouldn't there definitely be another episode and even more?
[00:18:31] Dolores Foley: Well, it's called resources. And the first, uh, program involved, um, pursuing a number of, uh, foundations and Who who funded the first one? Well, we had the the Atherton family foundation funded it, the, um, Hawaiian Electric company funded it, was partially, uh funded, the Wallace, um, Alexander Giboti foundation, and the the College of Social Sciences, um, also, helped, and, and, funding. We also should acknowledge KG&L, which put in lots of time and energy on this, and that was very, very helpful.
[00:19:07] Randall Roth: These have to be difficult times in which to be raising some money. And you're out there competing with a lot of organizations that, uh, that are suffering right now.
[00:19:15] Peter Adler: It is, it's a very difficult time, and we, we all know how the demand keeps rising and yet, the resources are shrinking. So it's it's not an easy time to try and raise money to do something like that.
[00:19:28] Randall Roth: On the other hand, what better time? This is a political year. This is the year we have to look at choices, we have to look at, at, uh, tough issues, and why not? Why I mean I, and I appreciate what you're saying, but I think if ever there's a time to to, uh, try and do these kind of enterprises, this is the year. This is a political year, and we we've got to find innovative ways of talking about the issues. I may be influenced the politicians.
[00:19:50] Peter Adler: I also think that it might be easier now that people can see it and see that it's a success, because, for the first year, we were talking about this idea that nobody could visualize how it would really work. And people said, well, I don't think that'll work here. You know, people won't come forward, but we had no one refuse any of the people that we approached to be as a panelist. I mean, that was something that some people said, you won't get them to come.
[00:20:16] Randall Roth: And we're still hoping that some others, there are other kinds of contribution, because, as Delores mentioned earlier, one of the things we want to do is continue to find a way to put these tapes in the hands of people in the community who can use those to spark conversations in smaller groups, whether it be a community itself that's wrestling with a growth issue or whether it be a civic club, or whether it be, uh, you know, a religious organization or whatever it is.
[00:20:38] Randall Roth: So, part one of this is trying to make these tapes and use these conversations. And part two is using them to provoke really good discussions at the community level. So we're still engaging in part two on this tape, even as we start up part one, part one of a new issue.
[00:20:52] Peter Adler: And ultimately, as I understand it, the goal is to is to build a stronger community. That's right. to empower individuals within community and to to make the community better than it is. That's right. I think to help articulate a vision. I think ultimately that's going down some from this, but ultimately, I'd like to see is how do we as a community, and how do we as neighborhoods or whatever, start to articulate a vision about what we want?
[00:21:19] Randall Roth: Wouldn't that normally be part of the political process? Wouldn't candidates who are asking for our vote be giving us their vision, and then we would be choosing which is the best vision for Hawaii by casting our vote one way or the other?
[00:21:30] Randall Roth: They should be, but that's also very much dependent on people demanding a vision from them, or and also asking them questions about how that vision will work given the complexities. Have we not been demanding that they share that vision? I don't think so. I don't, my just personal view is [unintelligible — audio glitch] don't think so. I think we have very low expectations of public officials. We sort of presume that they're, uh, just going to be put in office and kind of do the best they can. And we don't, I don't think we demand a lot from them. We certainly don't have a lot of competition for those seats. I mean, Dan Boyle's been talking about that for years, about the, uh, you know, low low number of people running for office.
[00:22:03] Randall Roth: So I don't think we've been doing that. But again, I'm sort of optimistic. I think I don't know if the title turned, but I think that there's an interesting moment right now where people are are kind of mad, and they're also curious, and they're asking for answers and they they want want better discussion right now.
[00:22:17] Peter Adler: I don't know that I want someone to articulate a vision for me. I want leadership, but I think what we have to do, too, is as a community, to start to articulate a vision, that we need to get to more of a we, and not I think constantly you hear they. Mm-hmm. But we are, you know, the the community. And so I think a lot of responsibility lies with us as individuals to come together.
[00:23:03] Randall Roth: Well, um I guess, if I could think of one single event, it would be a group of people in a particular community on any island, coming together, and um, either through the use of one of these tapes or through whatever other devices they can, sitting down and really working through methodically, debating a tough issue that it's going to impact them directly, not hypothetically, but directly. So to use this example, this thing would be successful if one community out there picks up this tape and then uses it to confront a growth issue and find the new balance between preservation and development in their community.
[00:23:37] Peter Adler: Well, yeah, I, I would think, uh, that would be a way that I would I would really enjoy. Um, also, I think to hear from people that, um, that they've used it, that it's really, um, been helpful in getting them to get past some roadblocks that they've been having in their neighborhood or their community, that they were able to stop just arguing with one another and listen to some of the multiple perspectives to try and find what's the common ground that they can that they have in their neighborhood.
[00:23:58] Dolores Foley: but they were able to stop just arguing with one another and listen to some of the multiple perspectives to try and find what's the common ground that they can that they have in their neighborhood.
[00:24:10] Randall Roth: One last question. What's that phone number again if somebody would like to get a hold of that tape?
[00:24:14] Peter Adler: 956-8260.
[00:24:15] Dolores Foley: 9568260.
[00:24:18] Randall Roth: Thank you very much. My guest this week, were Dolores Spoley, UH professor of Public Administration and Peter Adler, executive director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation. This week's show was produced by Jill Center with technical assistance from Jeff Illardi. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.