Energy Alternatives to Oil
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-01-01
Guests: Richard Rocheleau (Associate Researcher, Hawaii Natural Energy Institute); Maurice Kaya (Energy Division Manager, Hawaii DBEDT)
Duration: 0:37:45

[00:00:04] Randall Roth: Good morning. I'm Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Today's topic is energy sources other than oil. And with me to discuss it are Richard Rocheleau, a researcher with the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute, and Maurice Kaya, the energy program administrator for the State Department of Business, Economic Development and Tourism. Maurice, I'm curious. What sorts of things does a state energy program administrator do?
[00:00:28] Richard Rocheleau: Well, Randy, we do several things for the state in the area of energy, not the least of which is trying to move the state toward a greater degree of independence from oil. As most of your listeners will know, I'm sure, Hawaii depends on oil for a large portion of its energy needs. And in addition to developing alternatives to oil, we of course run the state's energy conservation programs and we're responsible for the contingency planning for energy emergency preparedness as far as disruptions to our oil supplies would occur in the future. So those are some major aspects of our our organization.
[00:01:08] Randall Roth: Maurice, is it unusual that a state would be looking for alternatives to oil, or do most states in the United States have a program like yours?
[00:01:16] Richard Rocheleau: I would say that there are a fair number of states that have programs like ours. Some of them are much more aggressive in their pursuit of these alternatives than others for various reasons. In addition to that, several of these states have been quite successful as it comes to finding these alternatives to oil, particularly in the electricity sector. So Hawaii is not alone in its search for this energy independence.
[00:01:39] Randall Roth: Rick, tell us a little bit about the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute. What's that?
[00:01:43] Maurice Kaya: The Hawaii Natural Energy Institute is a research institute within the University of Hawaii. It was established in about 1975 by the state legislature to assist the state in its pursuit of this greater independence from fossil fuels, to enhance the use of renewables. In recent years, in addition to serving in that role, the institute conducts basic research, a lot of it under contract to the federal government and to other organizations on a host of energy and environmental related issues.
[00:02:19] Randall Roth: Now, I'm going to play the bad guy here for a minute. Um, here we are trying to find alternatives to oil, and yet we're extremely dependent upon oil. Have we not done a good job, or we simply climbing a very, very steep mountain, Maurice?
[00:02:35] Richard Rocheleau: Well, I think it's a combination of both. I, I for one, look back at the 20 years since the first Arab oil embargo and look at statistically whether we've achieved some of these objectives or not. And in fact, it turns out statistically we're even more dependent on oil today than we were 20 years ago. We need to look at some of the reasons for this. I think the state has long had a supportive state policy for these two decades in trying to develop alternatives to oil. But it has not really buckled down and come up with specific and discreet goals and an implementation plan that allows us to achieve some of these objectives. Certainly, we've spent a lot of money on basic research and development and looking at the kinds of technologies that will help us wean ourselves from oil, but I think the commercialization aspect of these technologies have a lot to be desired. In other words, we have not done as good a job as I think we can do.
[00:03:29] Randall Roth: Um, I think the the number, and correct me if I'm wrong, 80 million dollars that we spent over the last 10 or so years?
[00:03:36] Richard Rocheleau: That's approximately that the that the number. A lot of a lot of these resources have of course been invested in a number of technologies including biomass, ocean thermal energy conversion, more recently geothermal development. And a fair amount of that money has gone into conservation technologies as well. As I indicated earlier, the office does support conservation programs throughout the state, and about a third of that money has been invested in these types of conservation programs for institutional facilities.
[00:04:04] Randall Roth: I see. Rick, is it wrong for someone like me to be looking for results now, as opposed to something down the road? In other words, should we be spending a lot of money thinking, well, someday it's going to pay off, even if it doesn't pay off right now?
[00:04:19] Maurice Kaya: Well, there needs to be a balance. People can't put money into researching renewable energy and and a future vision without some demonstration that there's been success. And there there are successes. Technologies for instance, in biomass, there's real opportunity in Hawaii for a short-term success for utilization of biomass both to make liquid fuels and to produce electricity.
[00:04:46] Randall Roth: Now, when you say biomass, I assume you're talking about sugarcane, the remnants, and the and the burning of that?
[00:04:52] Maurice Kaya: Well, at the current time, essentially all production of electricity using biomass is from the bagasse, the remnant of the sugarcane processing. As the sugar industry declines, which it seems to be doing or certainly is doing and seems to be on a track to continue doing, there is the possibility of establishing other crops, either terrestrial on land or even ocean oriented crops that could support other sources of material for use in the biomass to electricity production.
[00:05:24] Randall Roth: Well, if you're asking me for funds to do that, what are you going to tell me the measurements are by which I can determine whether those funds were well spent or not. What would the goal be?
[00:05:35] Maurice Kaya: The goals from the state point of view would be to establish some infrastructure to establish education of both policymakers, planners, and the utility. On a broader view, there are still technological issues to be solved, and certainly the state of Hawaii can't be dependent upon to provide all the funds for that. And in fact, at the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute now, we get over a million dollars a year, almost a million dollars a year from the federal government working on biofuels from biomass sources. So it is a partnership, there's some industrial involvement, the state's involved, the federal government is involved and there is near-term demonstration of technology, which is being developed now, and also long-term research being undertaken.
[00:06:23] Randall Roth: I see. Maurice, why wouldn't we simply give up? And I know you've got some good answers to this, but why wouldn't we say that energy derived from petroleum products is so much less expensive than energy from alternative sources? Um, what are your goals here in trying to find alternatives?
[00:06:41] Richard Rocheleau: Well, first of all, my direct response to your question about whether or not we should give up is absolutely no. I think in in relying predominantly on oil and ignoring the desire to develop alternative sources basically causes us to live on borrowed time. I think, you know, the the very fact remains that oil is a finite resource. While it's plentiful today and while it's inexpensive relatively speaking today, we're really using up these resources at a rate which cannot be sustained over a long period of time. So in effect, [unintelligible — audio glitch] you're having to deal with is a situation where we're we're using up the oil that might be available for our children's or their children's future as well. So I think we need to recognize the desirable attributes of oil, including its low cost, but at the same time continue to invest prudently in some of these longer range alternatives such as renewable energy sources. At the same time, I think we need to recognize that oil, like other fossil fuels, are other other fossil fuels rather are [unintelligible — audio glitch] kinds of energy sources that lead to more environmental damage as well as compared to some of the renewable sources which are you know don't rely on combustion for utilization.
[00:07:43] Randall Roth: Now tell me a little bit about that and as I understand it, a keyword here is externalities, and the environmental impact is a part of that. Can you tell us what what's meant by externalities?
[00:08:04] Richard Rocheleau: Well, externalities is a term that's come into recent usage that basically refers to the fact that there are costs associated with certain alternatives like oil and burning coal and burning natural gas that aren't really factored into the way we make our economic decisions right now. In other words, when we pay for the gallon of gasoline and or we pay for the kilowatt hour of electricity, that dollar and fifty per gallon or that 10 cents per kilowatt hour doesn't include those types of damages to the environment and the costs that we need to incur, what we would incur if um, the oil was spilled in the ocean for example, it doesn't, it doesn't include the subsidies that the federal government pays for keeping the streets of Hormuz open when there's a Persian Gulf crisis and so on. So those are external costs that are not factored into it, into the economic decisions right now.
[00:08:57] Randall Roth: I've got to ask, why aren't they factored in? If, if that's a reality, that there is that threat to the environment, if it's a reality that it is um, having some some bad effects now and potentially worse effects in the future, why wouldn't we increase it from a dollar 50 per gallon or from 10 cents per kilowatt hour?
[00:09:15] Richard Rocheleau: Well, I think part of that answer or a large part of that answer has to do with the political system within which these decisions are made. If you look at the most recent example, President Clinton, um, some months ago, proposed what was referred to as a BTU tax, which would have uh attempted to make the economic decision making a little bit more uh favorable with respect to comparing comparing uh alternate energy sources or renewable energy sources with uh fossil fuel sources. When this BTU tax was proposed, it caused quite a bit of an uproar, as we all recall, which ended up in uh something like a four cent per gallon gasoline tax being imposed uh at the pump as opposed to a broad BTU tax. So, it's it's a very difficult question for elected leaders to undertake because when it involves pocketbook types of issues, um for their consumers or for their uh for the electorate, it's it's a difficult decision for them to deal with.
[00:10:22] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Richard Rocheleau, from the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute, and Maurice Kaya, the head of DBED's Energy Division. Rick, what do you think about externalities and the political will to go ahead and do whatever it takes to to get the price of energy to reflect those externalities?
[00:10:31] Maurice Kaya: Well, a good bit of the problem is the political will and and the political lobbying. Uh some of the externalities [unintelligible — audio glitch] very direct. They're they're tax credits and they're subsidies that the large oil companies, the energy companies have gotten established over years, you know, essentially decades of use that that are direct payments uh that give them credit for exploration costs of oil that are actually relatively easy to measure. So in that case, uh legislative decisions could be made that that would adjust those subsidies and could phase them out over time. One of the other problems is that a lot of the externalities are not easy to measure, and even among the people who agree that externalities should be considered, uh for instance, what are the health effects of of burning oil, of burning coal, uh what's the environmental degradation, uh how is the impact different if it's in downtown Los Angeles and people are breathing it and and you know you have an air quality problem versus uh how it affects forest that are in relatively virgin areas. So it's two issues, it's both the the political will and the the difficulty of measuring some of the effects.
[00:11:40] Randall Roth: Let's talk about the alternatives. You mentioned uh biomass a little bit ago. What about solar? One would think out here in the middle of the Pacific with the the sun shining so often and so brightly that uh that we could do something with it. Rick, what are the the chances?
[00:11:54] Maurice Kaya: Well, solar is a really interesting technology and I've been involved in it for a number of years. And the problem with solar comes down largely to cost. Uh and that is impacted in two ways. One is there's a high capital cost. Certainly once you're operating it, it's it's very low cost. There's no fuel cost involved, but there's a high upfront capital cost that somebody has to pay. And the other problem with the solar technologies, which also occurs with the wind, is you can't depend on it. The technology itself is dependable, but you can't depend on the sun. So you don't know at what time of day for sure you will get the electricity. And when you talk to the utility and the utility then is going to depend on that to meet the demand, the production of the energy is not necessarily matched to demand and that makes it very difficult economically to deploy solar in very large amounts.
[00:12:49] Randall Roth: Maurice, Dbed looks at it the same way?
[00:12:51] Richard Rocheleau: Well, uh by and large I would say we look at it the same way, but I would like to make one clarification. I think uh Rick's description is is accurate uh as it relates to these large-scale solar technologies which have been are being pursued for utility use, utility development as stand-alone central solar plants. But we have an application here in Hawaii that I think, you know you know your your listeners would would be well to note. And that is the solar thermal technologies, a common solar hot water heating application, which is just a perfect example of a type of solar technology which is available today. It's it's a commercial. Uh there's a state tax credit of 35% to encourage people to use these things and it's cost effective immediately. In fact, we're so uh we're so strong in our belief that solar thermal technologies for heating your residential hot water is is here to stay and should be encouraged. Even greater is is you know, due to the fact that the utility companies, as part of their integrated resource plans will be coming up with measures to encourage the use of these technologies in individual homeowners with actually will go out and offer uh some financial incentives for people to put these systems in. And in concept what they're doing here is by developing these or by encouraging the use of these solar technologies, it'll prevent them from having to build uh new power plants in the future uh by by reducing the demand for energy that that all of us use on a day-to-day basis.
[00:14:23] Randall Roth: That that one sounds to me like a a relatively easy one because I don't think there are too many constituencies out there that would be fighting it. But what about geothermal?
[00:14:31] Richard Rocheleau: Well, geothermal, as uh as all of us know, has had a storied history here in Hawaii. Uh the state of course, uh believes strongly that geothermal is one of those renewable energy technologies that has a real place in Hawaii. And of course, the road to its development has been quite rocky. Uh there's been quite a bit of controversy on the Big Island with respect to the develop development of this commercial resource. We're fortunate to be able to say today that we do have a 25 megawatt power plant that's been up and running. It probably took two or three years longer to get it up and running than most people uh believed that it would take. And so, um, uh we still feel that it uh will play a major role in our in meeting our electricity needs. Uh so [unintelligible — audio glitch] just want to express our confidence in that.
[00:15:18] Randall Roth: Okay, Rick, can you tell us a little bit about the opposition? What is it that they're concerned about?
[00:15:24] Maurice Kaya: Well, I've my I haven't had a lot of intimate interaction with the opposition. Uh It's kind of a not in my backyard uh attitude and and there's a combination of both societal concerns, environmental concerns, and the spiritual concerns that are are really difficult from a technical point of view to address. I agree with Maurice that geothermal from a technical point of view works very well. It does have one uh limitation in Hawaii, which is that the geothermal resource is really located on the Big Island and the population and the energy need over there is not so large. So there certainly needs to be a a mechanism of getting it to Oahu, if it's really to impact the state as a whole.
[00:16:05] Randall Roth: Is it dependable?
[00:16:07] Maurice Kaya: There have been examples of technologies that have had some problems, but on the whole, it's a very dependable technology. It's a similar to a combustion type process in that it's a very conventional technique for making electricity from a hot steam source.
[00:16:23] Randall Roth: So this isn't an experimental sort of thing per se, that the technology has been established elsewhere?
[00:16:28] Maurice Kaya: That's correct. There are are I think literally hundreds of uh plants established worldwide. And I don't have the number on the top of my head, but there are thousands of megawatts of electricity being produced by geothermal worldwide.
[00:16:42] Randall Roth: I I don't know what a megawatt is. Maurice, can you tell me does geothermal have the capacity to provide all of the energy needs of the Big Island for example, and if we could figure out a way to get it from island to island, could it provide even more than that?
[00:16:56] Richard Rocheleau: Based on what we know today, we think that uh a geothermal can provide a significant amount but not all of the energy needs on the Big Island. It it it remains to be seen whether it's available in large enough amounts to make it make sense for it to be exported to other islands. Uh one of the major criticisms in the past uh was uh the state's effort to encourage the development of an undersea cable coupled with the geothermal development on the Big Island to ship some of this power um off to Oahu. And a lot of that criticism I think was warranted because uh when we were pursuing this project, we really did not know to what extent that resource was there and in what quantity. So that that question has yet to be answered.
[00:17:42] Randall Roth: As we speak about externalities, I know that uh hydroelectric is something that uh at least scientifically looks pretty good. Um, but I know on the Big Island there are some objections to um uh the damage that it does to expansion of wildlife preserves or changes the uh the surfing or uh gets in the way of taro farming or whatever. It seems as though there are there are a host of of reasons why hydroelectric shouldn't be expanded. Um, is that in the same league with geothermal in terms of uh uh the problems?
[00:18:14] Richard Rocheleau: It's interesting that you should ask that, Randy. You know, some people would would believe that it's in the same league as as geothermal in so far as its problems. I know that from our experience uh in trying to look at the possibility of developing these hydro projects throughout the state, there's there seems to be uh a very intense feeling, depending on where they're located as to its detrimental effects, say, on stream light uh the the stream ecosystems, for example. And uh these are very deep-rooted feelings amongst the some of the people that are that oppose them. I think what we are experiencing with all of these alternatives as as we go through each and every one of them, is that you will always find that there will be some detractor to a lot of these a lot of these alternatives. So that makes uh a powerful
[00:19:00] Richard Rocheleau: Any person and a planner's responsibilities all the more difficult in trying to sort through what people can readily accept as far as some of these technologies. But I think it is fair to say that any energy development technology will have its upsides and its downsides.
[00:19:14] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Rick Rochel from the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute and Maurice Kaa, the head of DBED's Energy Division. Uh, Rick, what about wind machines? I call them windmills, but I think they're called wind machines?
[00:19:29] Maurice Kaya: Well, wind machines or wind turbines, generally, now they, they call them, uh, the wind technology has been one of the real success stories in renewable energy or alternate technologies. The cost has dropped rather significantly, the machines have improved and the current estimates are that new machines deployed in a region of, of, of a good wind regime, of which Hawaii has many, can produce electricity at around six to eight cents per kilowatt hour, which is a little bit more expensive than what you're paying by from conventional fossil fuels with current technologies, but not that different.
[00:20:10] Maurice Kaya: And and so that technology has advanced a lot. The new machines are very good, and it will have a role in the energy mix in the future, probably both here in Hawaii and elsewhere.
[00:20:20] Randall Roth: I thought I read a couple years ago where a large number of wind machines were going out of use in Hawaii. Is is that not right?
[00:20:29] Maurice Kaya: There have been machines that have been taken out of use on the Big Island of Hawaii. Also you may have read not too long ago that the Kahuku farm, which was owned by Hurs, which is the Hawaiian Electric Electric Renewable Systems, a subsidiary of Hawaiian Electric, was closed down. Uh, that wind farm was bought by a third party and is now operational again. So there's been a a shift of ownership, uh, there have been some machines which have been turned off. Uh, generally, those machines were early generations that were less efficient and more costly, so the operating and maintenance costs were quite high.
[00:21:09] Maurice Kaya: There have been new wind turbines that have also been installed in the last year or two and some new farms, so it's a it's a changing technology and it's a changing, uh, mix within the islands here.
[00:21:21] Randall Roth: Maurice, what about H Power? I I heard Mayor Fasi the other day talking about it, and it sounded as though it was a complete success. Uh, I don't know enough to know whether that's true or not.
[00:21:31] Speaker 1: Again, that depends on your point of view. I think from the perspective of uh, dealing with our our uh, trash situation and and generating energy through its combustion, I think it's been a remarkable success.
[00:21:45] Randall Roth: What are its shortcomings?
[00:21:47] Speaker 1: Well, one of the short one of the major shortcomings, um, is the criticism that's levied at projects like H Power, where, you know, there's the so much of a push to get the trash to H Power to burn it for energy production that some of the environmentalists feel that that is a that that's that's a detrimental factor in supporting recycling programs throughout the state.
[00:22:07] Randall Roth: Worse than burying it?
[00:22:09] Speaker 1: No, not uh, I don't believe that it's worse than burying it. For one thing, I mean, you know, we we live in a state which has such limited land area and that's the reason why we have a lot of these problems with sighting for all of these alternate energy projects. But uh, I I think clearly, uh, a project like H Power in my mind is uh, superior to uh, burying the unprocessed refuse uh in a in a landfill.
[00:22:31] Randall Roth: Okay. Rick, what about OTEC? Can you tell us what that is and whether its future is bright?
[00:22:37] Maurice Kaya: It's it's it's future, I think, is bright. The question is when. Uh, again, it's another one of these technologies that uh, there are technical issues still to overcome. Uh, to back up a little bit and explain what OTEC is for those who aren't familiar with it. OTEC stands for Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion. And as in any uh, it OTEC makes use of the warm surface water and the colder deep waters to drive a conventional, uh, cycle engine to produce electricity.
[00:23:12] Maurice Kaya: So the the heat source is now the sunlight which heat is heating the upper surface of the water, instead of burning coal or burning oil. The problem with OTEC is the temperature difference that you are working with is not very large, so the process itself is not very efficient and so there is again a high upfront capital cost. Uh, currently there is progress in Hawaii in developing that technology. There's a demonstration site which is currently operating a plant. There are discussions ongoing for increasing plant sizes.
[00:23:42] Maurice Kaya: I think over the next to be realistic, 20 to 50 years, you'll see a growth of that technology. It has some very uh, significant advantages in that OTEC properly sited can produce electricity throughout the day, all 24 hours so that the utilities can make good use of that electricity.
[00:24:01] Randall Roth: Maurice, what's the ultimate goal here? Are we after energy self-sufficiency or something else?
[00:24:07] Speaker 1: No, I think uh, the ultimate goal here is to diversify our energy resource base so that the risks that we face in continuing to rely on these energy sources are in in our view, uh, readily assumable. Where the way it is right now, when we when we are dependent on one source of energy, which is oil, for over 90% of our energy needs, at least in my mind, and in our minds within the state, that risk is not something that we it's that it's it's bearable.
[00:24:35] Randall Roth: In just a few seconds, what's the single most important message that you hope the listener has gotten during this program, Maurice?
[00:24:43] Speaker 1: Well, I think if anything, uh, I'd like to just uh, reiterate the fact that uh, we we have a a very precarious energy situation within this state. It requires our uh, the very diligent effort in trying to look for alternative sources. These investments, while they may be far out in the future are extremely important for us to keep going after, uh, and it's really dependent on on ourselves to make these investments so that um, we can ensure that we will have a sustainable future for [unintelligible — audio glitch] generations to come.
[00:25:13] Randall Roth: Rick, anything to add to that?
[00:25:15] Maurice Kaya: I think the one thing I'd like to say is that people should have an appreciation that it's a complex issue, uh, and that there are many alternates that can make a contribution to this energy mix, and education of both the public and those involved in the utility and in the transportation sectors of the state is important and that that education will help to foster the increased use of these alternate energy forms.
[00:25:37] Randall Roth: Thank you Rick. Thank you Maurice. Our guest this week were Richard Rochel, a researcher with the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute, and Maurice Kaa, Energy Division Manager of the State Department of Business, Economic Development and Tourism. This week's show was produced by Jill Senner with technical assistance from Rick Stanley. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha. This program is produced by the consortium of Price of Paradise authors in cooperation with Hawaii Public Radio. The Price of Paradise is a best-selling book that has become a must read for every concerned citizen of Hawaii.
[00:26:14] Randall Roth: The Price of Paradise is a best-selling book that has become a must read for every concerned citizen of Hawaii. A sequel, Price of Paradise, Volume 2, has quickly become another bestseller after recently arriving in Oahu bookstores. Please tune in next week when Randal Roth, a special guest, and one of his 65 co-authors from the two Price of Paradise books, will take on another question of importance to listeners in Hawaii. Cassette copies of this program are available from Hawaii Public Radio for $10 by calling 955-8821.