Are Race Relations Getting Better or Worse?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1993-09-01
Guests: Susan Yim (freelance journalist; former editor, The Honolulu Advertiser); Eric Yamamoto (Professor, University of Hawaii School of Law)
Duration: 00:30:17

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Today's topic is ethnicity in Hawaii, and with me to discuss it are freelance journalist Susan Yim and UH law professor Eric Yamamoto. Sue, are are race relations in Hawaii getting better or getting worse?
[00:00:18] Susan Yim: Uh, it's a tough question, but the short answer is I think race relations in Hawaii are getting worse. Um and just very another short answer. I think it may be exacerbated by the increase in population and our limited size, as well as the economic downturn of the state.
[00:00:40] Eric Yamamoto: Eric? Well, I would just, I agree completely. I think things are getting worse. I would add that things are getting worse, but people aren't recognizing that things are getting worse. And perhaps that's as much a problem as uh increasing racial tensions.
[00:00:56] Randall Roth: But why would we want to talk about it? Uh if it's bad and people don't want to talk about those sorts of things. Is there some advantage to discussing it, Eric?
[00:01:05] Eric Yamamoto: I think there are several advantages to discussing it, as painful as it is, uh in part because all of us are impacted by race relations in Hawaii. We have been uh for the last 150 years and we continue to be today, and race relations and the tensions that are generated uh from those relationships, impact upon us not just morally or spiritually, but economically, educationally, and how we behave towards one another each day. So it's something we do need to talk about.
[00:01:33] Randall Roth: Sue, you agree that this is something that needs to be discussed?
[00:01:36] Susan Yim: I do. I think it's something that, as Eric said, uh we tend to shy away from. I don't know if it's uh because of cultural values, um some of them that that um lead us not want to accent the negative, but instead emphasize the positive. Uh but I I agree that that possibly the bigger problem is that we don't want to address these problems or think about the fact that um there are problems ahead.
[00:02:07] Randall Roth: When you say problems ahead, what what sorts of problems could we be looking at?
[00:02:11] Susan Yim: Um I guess we addressed this in the in a chapter in the Price of Paradise, um and we call them ethnic pressure points. And uh one of the problems is, well the first one I'll talk about is, um we tend in Hawaii to be very distrustful or suspicious of the newcomer, whether it's a newcomer from the mainland US or for that matter, the newcomer from Asia or the Pacific Islands.
[00:02:44] Randall Roth: So regardless of the newcomer's race, the newcomer is looked at with suspicion?
[00:02:48] Susan Yim: I I believe the newcomer is. And granted uh what's going to be happening and is has started to happen and we'll see more of a pattern maybe in the decade ahead is how um say Filipino, Chinese, Korean, the um older generations, who've been here for several several decades and in some cases a century, how they are going to react to the newcomers who are coming from the home country. And I think that will be something interesting to watch and possibly a problem that that could become a racial tension.
[00:03:24] Randall Roth: And and how might this racial tension um be seen by others, people outside that particular community? If it's for example the older generation that's been here for a while and the the immigrants that are newly arrived?
[00:03:37] Susan Yim: How will, I'm sorry, how will the groups outside of the ethnic group? Well I guess I'm just wondering people who have their own little world, their job, their neighborhood, their family, um how does any sort of ethnic tension in another group in another neighborhood, how does that impact on them?
[00:03:55] Susan Yim: Um I think that you'll see, I guess if we look back in Hawaiian history, there have been times when there's been tension, I think among the Filipino groups um and it just it it looks like they, well they become a disruptive uh force in some way in the community. And so, therefore whatever changes that that group might um be pushing for or like to see happen, might not, might have a they might have a tougher time seeing changes made, positive changes made.
[00:04:32] Randall Roth: Eric, what do you think about this first pressure point that Sue has mentioned?
[00:04:36] Eric Yamamoto: Well, I think there has been historically and there continues to be uh a real distrust of newcomers or so called outsiders. And I think a word that describes that is localism or being local. And I think uh especially back in the 1970s, when I was going to school, going to college, being local was a very important source of identity. And I at that time saw that that or perceived that being local was tied to a perception of a breakdown in community structure, breakdown in the neighborhood, the store, uh the mom and pop stores, the changing lifestyles, the high rises that were coming up all over the island, and a perceived sense of loss of community of communal bonds. And so the perceived bad people were the outsiders. There was, it was the Japanese investors. There was a yellow peril in the early 70s. It was the uh Caucasian newcomers coming in, it was beginning a little bit with the immigrants, but it was us, meaning the local people, however that was defined against them, meaning the outsiders.
[00:05:43] Randall Roth: So if there's uncomfortable change, it must be the result of the outsiders?
[00:05:46] Eric Yamamoto: That's right, that was the perception, and in fact in the early to mid 1970s, there was a political movement to try to restrict in-migration into Hawaii. And all of this was not dealt with on explicitly racial terms, or even ethnic group terms, it was sort of local insiders versus whoever they were outsiders. But there were, I think very strong ethnic or racial underpinnings which continue on today and perhaps being manifest today.
[00:06:22] Randall Roth: That's interesting. I'm Caucasian. My kids tell me they're locals, and the way I hear that word being used, I don't think they're locals, but what does that word mean? Somebody who's local?
[00:06:33] Eric Yamamoto: Well, it has many meanings. Uh but I I think local has become an identity for anyone who is in Hawaii, who has embraced certain kinds of values, certain kinds of communal values, values that people thought were being destroyed, of sharing, of certain kind of tolerance, of appreciation for the land, appreciation for the various cultures. And so in that sense, the local identity uh is a multi-racial identity. Uh and I will say that um other people now are saying local identity in some ways has been useful for people in Hawaii and in defining values, but it's been somewhat uh has somewhat hampered the native Hawaiian sovereignty movement by by de-emphasizing uh race and specific ethnic group culture. So there's a couple of different ways at least to look on this this notion of localism or local identity.
[00:07:18] Randall Roth: Sue, you you mentioned pressure points. Uh anything more about that first pressure point before you give us another one?
[00:07:25] Susan Yim: No, but I did want to make a comment about localism or this local culture and I I'm curious about what Eric thinks. Uh when I did um some interviews about two years ago with uh various public officials, um people like Franklin Odo, who's the director of the University's Ethnic Studies program, the governor. Um what what some of them said to me was what holds holds people together in Hawaii, what makes us a model, is our local culture.
[00:07:59] Randall Roth: Do you agree with that, Eric?
[00:08:04] Eric Yamamoto: What holds us together is our local It's the glue, someone used the the phrase, it's the glue that that um gives us something in common.
[00:08:12] Eric Yamamoto: I think that's true. I think we do have a common base, and I think people from each ethnic group can um see themselves as participating, as belonging because there is uh something that we might describe as a local culture. But I think uh that local culture can also be problematic because then it can begin to uh blind us to some of the very important racial ethnic differences that do exist. And I think this notion of the melting pot or melting pot giving rise to a local culture to which we all belong, while there is some truth and it's it's wonderful in certain respects, really doesn't accurately portray the whole picture. And I think there are some very significant ethnic tensions that are arising that that I think linking to your second pressure point about immigrants uh and perception people's perceptions of immigrants.
[00:09:03] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Susan Yim, a freelance journalist, and Eric Yamamoto, a professor at the University of Hawaii, Richardson School of Law. Sue, what's another pressure point that we as a community need to be aware of?
[00:09:17] Susan Yim: Well, Eric just mentioned it. I think the second pressure point that we should be aware of is um um the fact that we have lower income groups, many of them immigrants, who are um working so hard just to put food on the table. And as a result, don't have the time to really keep an eye on the younger generation, their children. And often this is not just mom and dad, but uh the older brother and the older sister. So the the children are are unsupervised in a sense and in some cases, this is, I think, created a rise in in the youth gangs, which we all recognize as a growing problem.
[00:10:02] Randall Roth: I was at a function the other day and and a woman uh I think was Hawaiian, I'm not sure, was commenting in a very negative way about uh people from the Philippines and from Vietnam who are coming here and working for in her words peanuts and um taking jobs from uh those of us who who really live here. Is that um is that common that people are saying those sorts of things, feeling those sorts of things? Sue or or is this something that you see as a as a possible problem down the road, that it isn't here yet?
[00:10:35] Susan Yim: I I have a feeling that it's probably more common than we realize. Um and I think this is what what I was mentioning in the first pressure point, um that it's a suspicion and a a distrust we have for the newcomer. And too often we think of the newcomer mainly as the Caucasian. But um you know, a goodly number of newcomers today are coming from Asia, and um and perhaps this is where where we would we and why we see this happening. Um, I think it's going to increase as our economy continues to suffer. I think whenever we have economic problems, um we look for scapegoats. It's just human nature. And unfortunately uh we may look for ethnic scapegoats. I think this is happening nationally in the case of Japan.
[00:11:27] Randall Roth: Eric, I I'm sure you have something to say about that.
[00:11:31] Eric Yamamoto: Yes, I do. Try to put this into my thoughts into words. I think it's a maybe there's things to be learned from what's happened in Los Angeles in California on this point. When there's a shrinking economic pie, uh there are long-term residents who are still struggling economically. There's an influx of uh immigrants from various countries of differing ethnic cultures. Um, what seems to happen is that um people are struggling over a small pie and the different racial groups begin to look at each other as enemies. And then what happens is a development of arguments of racial entitlement. Who's entitled to the piece of the pie as opposed to who is not. And the focus then becomes between racial groups. And in California, there's a some very significant problems between uh Latino groups, African-American groups, uh Asian-American groups, um all fighting over this perceived shrinking and not perceived, actual shrinking shrinking pie. And part of the problem about that kind of racial divisiveness and tension is that I think this discussion over entitlement doesn't focus on the larger picture of the fact that it's a dying economy or shrinking economy, and that really the groups shouldn't be fighting against each other, but should be brought into a larger effort to to expand the economy, improve the economy. And so the discussion, I think, is very easily focused on on perhaps the wrong things.
[00:13:03] Randall Roth: What about sovereignty? Sue, how does sovereignty fit into this?
[00:13:06] Susan Yim: Well, we do I do think of sovereignty as a a pressure point. Um it's a little ironic in the sense that I think sovereignty has really been a a positive thing for the Hawaiian community in the sense that they've been able to see that um their voices are being heard and recognized and um that I think there's a perception that they can as a group um work towards change and possibly um see some change made that that they actually like and that they participated in in um in in dictating or really or more or more positively um that change will come in a for for them in a democratic way, that their voice will be heard and recognized and and so that's a positive thing for the the native Hawaiian group. I think unfortunately um that their progress is a little threatening to some of the other ethnic groups, large or small, and um and I hope that's because this is we're just in the beginning of uh a process, probably a a long process and so we're we're new to this. It's it's going to mean change and so people tend to be uh a little wary.
[00:14:32] Randall Roth: Wary in the sense that whatever the the Hawaiians get has to come from somebody else?
[00:14:37] Susan Yim: Right, they think it's a loss.
[00:14:39] Randall Roth: Um, a couple years ago, there was a a brouhaha over Hanani K Trask, something that she had said to a student at the University of Hawaii and I I believe that was about the time you wrote the article that you had mentioned earlier. Could you tell us just a little bit about what was going on there and um the degree to which the community seemed to get involved in that?
[00:15:01] Susan Yim: Mhm. Um I don't want to oversimplify what happened, but for the listeners who don't remember or weren't here, uh very simply, um Professor Trask had responded to a letter to the editor, I believe, that was published in this the University of Hawaii newspaper, and um the student had had said in the letter that he um had been discriminated against, had not been treated, I guess as he had expected to be in Hawaii. And uh Professor Trask responded that um I believe if he didn't like the way he'd been treated, then he should go back to uh the state from which he came. Am I wrong? Is that pretty much what happened? Um as a result uh it got people talking. It certainly got people talking about race, which they don't, I feel they usually don't talk about in public. At the newspaper, I was then an editor at the Advertiser. We were deluged with letters to the editor from people on both sides, people who agreed with Professor Trask, people who disagreed. And what struck me was how passionate the letters are. People are passionate, granted, when they write letters to the editor, but these were, I think uh much more emotional than usual and um and [unintelligible — audio glitch] was very curious about the reaction because I think in general, people in Hawaii tend to be temperate. They tend to moderate their emotions, maybe because we're a small island and we have to get along uh with each other.
[00:16:38] Randall Roth: Is is there such a thing as Kill Haole Day in the schools, or was there ever?
[00:16:42] Susan Yim: You know, I'm I think I'm I don't know if I went to the right schools. Um, but I went to schools where I didn't encounter that, and Where did you go to school? I went to public schools and I went to Waili Elementary in Kaimuki. I went to Kaimuki Intermediate uh and I went to Kalani and I for a brief 2 years, I did go to a school in I called Elvis Scott. I never encountered that, but I I've heard about it and you know, and I certainly um believe people who've told me about it. Eric, what have you heard? Or what do you what have you experienced?
[00:17:13] Eric Yamamoto: Well, my experiences were back again when I was going to college in the early 1970s and I was aware that in in the high schools, some some high schools, they had kill Haole days. Uh I'm not sure that there was actually any violence, but it was sort of the threat at that time. And I also recall a letter in the Caleo uh University of Hawaii student newspaper and it was entitled 'Haole's Busting a Few'. And that letter to the editor uh reflected uh local person's anger at feeling like a second class inferior citizen in that person's homeland. And so I think that at least the the notion or the concept existed and I'm sure there may have been some violence connected with that. I try to place that in in context. I think especially when those those days or that those concepts uh, whatever you call them, arose, it was a time where people I think were really struggling with still feeling, even though there's statehood, um certain people feel very much like inferior second class citizens in Hawaii, and a lot of anger attached to feelings of historical oppression and that was one way of venting that. I'm not saying that was a good thing. I don't think it was a good thing, but I think there was an explanation for that. I'm not aware if that has continued today or or not. I'm not aware at this point.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: the chapter is um the fact that we see tension building uh towards the Japanese-American community in Hawaii, which many people perceive as the model minority. Um, they're perfect. Their children go to school, they go to college, they get professional jobs, they can afford to buy homes, they don't commit crimes. Um
[00:19:23] Eric Yamamoto: Sounds like you're describing Eric Yamamoto to me.
[00:19:26] Randall Roth: But the fact is, while it's true for Eric, it's not necessarily true for uh for the Japanese-American community. They are as imperfect as any group. But they do have this image. They also have the image, and some people will argue the reality, uh that they run government. A lot of people believe that the Japanese Americans run the state. Um
[00:19:46] Eric Yamamoto: Do they?
[00:19:48] Randall Roth: I I don't believe they do. I think that the Democratic Party does, and I think it's an ethnically uh diverse organization, um but unfortunately, I think we do see many of the figureheads as Japanese-Americans, and um the the news, the stories, and recent stories in the newspapers about uh government tend to be quoting Japanese-Americans. I I don't know, what do you think? Do you think they run government, Eric?
[00:20:18] Eric Yamamoto: Well, I can respond to that from a slightly different angle in terms of the model minority status. I think that that idea is is a very damaging one from several directions. One from how people perceive Japanese-Americans in Hawaii and then how Japanese-Americans perceive themselves. Uh, I think in terms of the perception that Japanese-Americans have made it and are in control, uh certainly in in some ways they are, but in other ways they are not. I recall looking at a list of the top paid CEOs in the state of Hawaii and I think the first 17 there were any Asians. So, in terms of business, the businesses that really have power in this state, that's certainly not true. Um but it is true that that and and it also is true as you indicated that Japanese-Americans, like every group, uh have dysfunctions within them. Uh I think male-female relationships in some respects are are not uh totally functional and need examination. I think um there's a whole range of problems that are attended to um each ethnic group and Japanese-Americans included that don't get addressed by this, once this label of model minority or we've made it the status gets attached. And so I think there are a lot of misperceptions, and there are there's some truth to this perception of Japanese-Americans sort of being uh um uh somewhat in power and someone in control but not quite, not quite. And for Japanese-Americans, this is a problem because then [unintelligible — audio glitch] begins to um prevent self-inspection and self-criticism. And it also, I think, Japanese-Americans in Hawaii came from um the plantations, they came from uh being outsiders to eventually moving through the political process to be insiders in many respects. Um and I think in some ways they've lost touch. We, as a group, have lost touch with the struggles of other groups. And in that way the model minority status uh I think inhibits our own self-growth.
[00:22:17] Randall Roth: Is there such a thing as ethnic politics? Is it important to get the the vote of the Japanese-American community or the vote of the Filipino community or whatever, or is that a myth?
[00:22:29] Eric Yamamoto: Sue? I from what uh reporters and uh political pundit pundits tell me, that is not a myth uh to be elected in Hawaii because everyone is a minority. Um, you have to have the votes of more than one ethnic group. And um, and so [unintelligible — audio glitch] think ethnic politics is very much alive and well in Hawaii.
[00:22:56] Randall Roth: What about Frank De Lima? Is Frank De Lima's unique brand of ethnic humor a good thing or does it hurt in terms of uh stereotypes and in the way we think about one another?
[00:23:12] Eric Yamamoto: Well, I'll take a stab at that and I don't know uh Frank De Lima personally. Uh I do know he's very um aware of comments and concerns about his brand of humor, so I do want to first say I do appreciate what he does and it tries and tries to do. Uh I do think there's some good and some not so good about his brand of ethnic humor and the good is that it does put race and ethnicity and culture on the table and it makes it an issue and it makes the things we talk something we talk about. It's also good because um there is humor in what he does, and we do need to think about ourselves in that way, but also there's a potential problem of stereotyping. When the humor is based on stereotypes as opposed to incisive, satirical uh comments about ethnic groups, then I think we run into a problem perpetuating stereotypes.
[00:24:04] Randall Roth: We've just got a minute or so left. Um, Sue, what do you hope happens if we do as a community start talking about race more than we have? What do you hope it leads to? What specific actions?
[00:24:17] Eric Yamamoto: I I really would like us to to recognize race relations as as a problem that we've that's increasing. Um, realize that we shouldn't tolerate tolerate growing tensions. Even have a formal conference where we might talk about race relations, address them as these four pressure points or talk about them as issues, uh youth gangs for example, or talk about tourism as what some people are calling the new plantation. I I'd like to see some public policy coming out of this, or at least our leaders who who formulate public policy getting some ideas about what they can do to address the problem.
[00:24:37] Susan Yim: these four pressure points or talk about them as issues, uh youth gangs, for example, or talk about tourism as what some people are calling the new plantation. I'd like to see some public policy coming out of this or at least our leaders, who who formulate public policy, getting some ideas about what they can do to address the problem.
[00:24:57] Randall Roth: Thank you, Sue. Thank you, Eric. Our guests this week were freelance journalist Susan Yim and UH law professor, Eric Yamamoto. This show is produced by Jill Center with technical assistance from Rick Stanley. We would like to hear your thoughts about what we've said or not said. Those comments can be sent to me in care of Hawaii Public Radio, 738 Keka Street, Honolulu, Hawaii, 96814. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha. Those comments can be sent to me in care of Hawaii Public Radio, 738 Kaheka Street, Honolulu, Hawaii 96814. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
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