Public School Challenges
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1993-09-01
Guests: John Dolly (Professor, University of Hawaii College of Education); Charles Toguchi (Superintendent, Hawaii Department of Education)
Duration: 00:34:27

[00:00:05] Randall Roth: Good morning. I'm Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. With me today are UH Dean of Education John Dolly and State Superintendent of Schools Charles Toguchi. John in your chapter in the the Price of Paradise you said that we have a public school system here in Hawaii that's doomed to failure. What's the single biggest reason why you are pessimistic about our future?
[00:00:30] John Dolly: I'm sorry I ever made the quote. Uh it was taken out of context when it was published in the newspaper. And what I was saying was that we have an education system, and by system I'm talking about the entire United States of America. We have a system that's based on a model that Charlie Toguchi himself has said, is an agricultural model and an industrial model. We still bring kids in for nine months. Uh we we know that we have a system that's not effective, but we put the kids last. We worry about will change impact the vacations of parents. What impact will it have on teachers and our contracts? What impact will it have on principals, instead of saying, what's good for kids? And then let's design a system that'll make our education system effective for those children rather than all the people participating in the process. I would include university professors in that by the way. Uh we're part of the problem, not necessarily the solution.
[00:01:29] Randall Roth: Charlie do you agree that we have a system that doesn't really fit society today?
[00:01:35] Charles Toguchi: Randy I fully agree with what John is saying. Uh, in fact, I can add to that. I know John had a section on the, with some comments about the contract. If you look at both the teacher's contract as well as the administrator's contract, they place as a priority the employee and the youngsters are secondary. And this is why, you know, we have been having some difficulty making some changes in the schools. Uh there are some good signs uh ahead in that in school community based management in which we currently have 160 schools uh into that that uh that concept. It provides for waivers and and exceptions to collective bargaining contracts. I like to see more proposals put in by schools to ask for exceptions from the union contracts. In fact, the unions are supporting some of the changes, so I see some hope. But uh but I tend to agree with John that uh we need systemic change uh if we really want to address uh the concerns of our youngsters.
[00:02:42] Randall Roth: Now, as I understand it, school community based management or what some people call SCBM, is a form of decentralization where you're pushing authority down to the trenches, the people in the trenches?
[00:02:54] Charles Toguchi: I guess a simple way of describing SCBM or school community-based management is to say that we are trying to democratize the system to get the people at the school level and these are the professional, the teachers as well as the administrators. And and we should also include the parents to create some ownership, to provide them with the flexibility and the decision making so that they can address the unique needs at their school. So in a way, we're trying to democratize the system rather than to have a big bureaucracy and there's no way that Charlie Toguchi at the state office can make all the decisions for the 240 schools. Uh the school people know better than the superintendent, and even the Board of Education members what they need to do at the school level.
[00:04:05] Randall Roth: Are we talking about how to spend money or are we talking about hiring and firing or just what's the extent of the decisions that are going to be given to the principals and others at the school level?
[00:04:16] Charles Toguchi: Randy, I place them in three major categories. Uh we basically talking about budget uh in terms of resources, we're talking about the utilization of second, secondly, the utilization of personnel and third, the area of curriculum and instruction.
[00:04:22] Randall Roth: I see. John, do you think this movement toward SCBM is is a good one and how does this fit in with your notion of of choice being very very important to the parents?
[00:04:32] John Dolly: Well, I think it's the best hope we have in Hawaii. I think the fact that so many schools have already come forward with plans to change. Uh that's a good sign. I think people are aware of the fact that they're responsible for their children's education and that if they want to ensure that at their own child has a good education they've got to get involved. And they need to help set some of the directions. I think there's enough evidence certainly in industry that getting the people who actually deliver services and the recipients of those services involved in planning and instituting the process of how we're going to deliver good education, that that's critical if we're going to change things. So I I'm very optimistic. I think it's going to lead to some interesting questions uh down the road. I think as schools develop some unique characters in terms of their own philosophy, their operating styles, uh what they decide to emphasize or de-emphasize, I think the state will be forced uh into a situation where we're going to have to open up more choice for parents. And the choices will be more clear-cut because we will in fact have schools that are very, very different.
[00:05:39] Charles Toguchi: Randy I I just want to add two things to what is being said here. Uh we need to always remember that site-based management or SCBM or school community-based management is just to create the environment. It's what you do with that environment or that empowerment that's going to make the difference. Uh and and this is where I think the participation of parents and and all the professionals is very critical number one. Secondly, uh we need to have these people in touch with the university community uh so that we are in touch with the latest in terms of research and development and third, the in-service training is going to key be a key to the transformation of our schools, that is we need to in-service our teachers and our administrators as to what they need to do in the schools. And this is where I think John Dolly and the university community can be of help to the schools that are going to school community-based management.
[00:06:10] Randall Roth: It seems to me that that with SCBM, there's a lot more authority and responsibility given to the principal of each school. And yet John Dolly has has written that having principals in a union is a bizarre tradition and generally was was critical, I think of of the way that's working right now in Hawaii. Is that a problem [unintelligible — audio glitch] is it not, Charlie?
[00:06:44] Charles Toguchi: Well, let me just correct one thing, Randy. Uh it is not the intent, it is not my intent to provide this empowerment only to the principal. We're talking about the empowerment to the school and the school is made up of several uh representatives from many different groups and the parent group, the business, the the teachers, and the administrators. Uh so we're trying to empower the school. The principal in that kind of a setup becomes a facilitator, able to bring different people together to work for a common vision. Uh and that is what the SCBM is all about.
[00:07:10] Randall Roth: John, is that something that you expect to work well? I know in in your chapter you talked about our having a closed system and the principals were people who had worked their way up through the ranks and sometimes weren't the most innovative of people. They weren't necessarily the best leaders. Uh is that something that could be a problem with SCBM?
[00:07:50] John Dolly: It can be a problem with any organization. I mean leadership is the key to change and if you don't have a leader, you're not going to get the level of support you need in the community, or among the teachers to really bring about the changes needed. Um my concern is that if you're going to be a professional I think you have to be a risk taker. If you're going to be a leader, you have to be a risk taker. I don't see uh being in a union worried about protecting your job in a particular school as being the kind of risk taker I see leading schools into the 21st century. I think we've got to build into the system as we change the schools and they are changing and I think many of them are moving in a positive direction, but I think there has to be some empowerment for the removal of people who are ineffective leaders, and for teachers who are ineffective teachers, and the assessment and accountability that goes with change has to be in there and there has to be some teeth in it, or we're not going to bring about any major change. We're going to have schools that are ineffective and the state is going to be stuck in a position where they can't get rid of the people who are basically ineffective in that system.
[00:08:57] Randall Roth: Charlie, were you nodding just just then were you agreeing with that?
[00:09:01] Charles Toguchi: Yes, I I agree with uh the dean that uh we need to make some changes. Uh for example, currently, uh unless I go within the system first, I'm not able to recruit someone from the mainland. Uh this is not true with the teacher contract but it is true with the administrator contract. As long as someone uh applies from the state of Hawaii, I'm not able to uh recruit a principal let's say applying from uh from California.
[00:09:34] Randall Roth: That's the union contract that you're referring to?
[00:09:36] Charles Toguchi: Yes. Uh it we cannot consider all applicants. We have to uh first consider the internal applicants prior to uh going outside. How could that get changed, assuming that's not a good way to do it? How would that get changed? Well, I think change, we just have to keep the pressure up. I think that I see some changes already occurring with the educational officers. I think we need to look at the contract again. Uh for example, I have no problem with uh principals being in the union, and it's a matter of maybe what should be uh the things that are negotiated as union members. For example, being part of a group to negotiate their compensation, their wages, and their fringe benefits. I see nothing wrong in in having collective action on that part. But when it gets to management rights, traditional management rights, things such as the recruitment and and the hiring and the retention and the evaluation, the personnel matters, maybe that should not be part of the contract and is currently part of the the principal's contract.
[00:10:50] Randall Roth: It it is odd I think that middle management which is basically what the principals are that that they would be in a union.
[00:11:06] Charles Toguchi: So maybe a limitation in terms of the scope of negotiations in their contract.
[00:11:10] Randall Roth: I see. You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are John Dolly, Dean of the College of Education at the University of Hawaii, and Charles Toguchi, State Superintendent of Schools. John, let's talk about teachers just a minute. You're in the the business of educating teachers. Do you feel that there are proper incentives right now to to attract the most qualified and motivated of of students?
[00:12:28] John Dolly: Yes and no. I think if you look at the students coming to the College of Education at the University of Hawaii and at UH Hilo, we're getting absolutely top quality students. So the the quality of the students is not the issue right now. Um, I think in terms of the DOE, if you look at DOE projections and needs, the issue is we're not getting enough of them, and we're not getting them in areas where DOE is projecting their greatest shortages. So we're getting very good people, but we're not getting enough people, for example, in science, mathematics, foreign language. We're not getting enough people willing to work in rural schools, in neighbor island schools.
[00:12:35] Randall Roth: You mentioned math. I I read recently where [unintelligible — audio glitch] don't know if this was accurate or not, but I read where something like 80% of the teachers in math were not certified to teach math. Is is that anywhere near being accurate, Charlie?
[00:13:28] Charles Toguchi: I I'm not sure if uh it's as low as uh 20% being qualified. I think there are more teachers I think qualified. I think where we have difficulty is when we have split lines where you have uh maybe someone with a minor in mathematics teaching a major uh math class. Uh but I'm not sure if it's 80% to that extent. Do you have a problem, uh is there a teacher shortage from your standpoint? Do you have trouble hiring competent people to fill all the slots that you have to fill? Well, Randy, we are growing as a system. Uh for example, this this September, in fact, school started yesterday or that a few days ago, uh we had an increase of over 3,000 youngsters uh and we're hiring approximately, uh 900 to 1,000 teachers every year, uh that is due to retirement as well as the increased and enrollment. Uh we have had to go to the mainland to hire additional teachers. We actively recruit on the mainland. I hire about close to 200 teachers from the mainland every year. There's I think a plus and a minus [unintelligible — audio glitch] that, in that it's nice that we go to the mainland and we bring in people from the outside, and as John pointed out, it is true we like, with the principals we should have really a good cross-section of people that we can hire. And so that's the good part. I think the the bad part is that uh we struggle every year trying to get qualified people, and there's no question that in some situation we have had to hire people not fully qualified to teach some of our classes, especially in the areas elaborated by uh John.
[00:14:46] Randall Roth: It's always nice to have more funding, but do you feel generally you've got enough funding in order to to pay what you need to pay to attract the quality of of applicant that you would like to attract? I know these are tough budgetary times right now and you've got school population. I think if you compare just the dollars, straight dollars I think uh we are uh can be considered I think uh average in terms of pay for teachers. But when you take into consideration the cost of living, the cost of purchasing a house, the cost of uh uh even renting a house here, uh then you run into major difficulties and this was shown very clearly when uh we go on a when we go on our recruitment uh trips uh we have uh we might have 300 saying, okay, we'll come to Hawaii, and we'll take a job in Hawaii and when they start looking into uh the housing situation uh then we lose about a hundred saying we can't afford to come to Hawaii and work in Hawaii for that pay and expect to pay uh you know, over $1,000 uh to to rent a place. Uh so this it's caused some difficulty in terms of the cost of living here in Hawaii. So, Randy, in terms of pay, uh if you take the cost of living into account, I think that uh uh it's teachers have a difficult time making it here.
[00:15:37] Randall Roth: John, I know uh once your students get out into the field, um there is some evaluation of the job they're doing. Is is that adequate or should we be approaching that differently?
[00:16:20] John Dolly: Uh that's it it probably should be approached differently. We do some follow-up ourselves on our graduates. Uh the DOE has their own assessment of teachers and principals do assess the teachers in the schools. Um I think there's probably more of that going on today and there's more mentoring going on in the DOE, which I think is critical. I think one of the problems we have with the teacher turnover we are currently into this situation where we have large numbers of retirees. You are in fact losing some very good senior teachers. And so you're putting in some of these schools large numbers of new a brand new neophyte teachers who don't have a lot of experience and we don't have really some senior teacher leadership in those schools to work with them and mentor them. And I think that's something we're going to have to look at because uh if you don't provide that kind of support, one you're not going to bring the teacher along and have that individual develop the skills they need to be effective teachers. And two, if they're left out, they're floundering. They're the ones most likely to drop out of teaching and you don't want to lose good people because we're not providing adequate support. Uh I think we're aware of that. I know the DOE is aware of it, but that's a high-cost item because it means you've got to physically take a very qualified teacher and assign that individual as a mentor for say five to seven new teachers. And so that becomes a major cost item.
[00:17:34] Randall Roth: Charlie, when I was preparing uh to do this show, I talked to a a number of people about their perception of public education in Hawaii. And without exception, there seemed to be a sense that uh the quality of public education is not just low but but lower than it should be. And I know you've commented before that uh uh people don't complain so much about the school their own children go to, but they do feel the system as a whole is is not doing as well as it should be doing. Why is that?
[00:18:04] Charles Toguchi: Well, Randy, uh it's you know, well, let me put it this way, we took several surveys and uh we asked parents the same questions and uh in addition to asking the parents how do you feel about your school, which is by the way rated higher than if we ask them how do you rate the system as a whole, uh we did ask them, where do you get news about the public school system. They said, well, I know about my youngsters school because I attend the Ohana meeting, the PTA meeting, and I attend parent conferences, but I don't know anything about the system as a whole, and I primarily my news about the system uh is from the uh the dailies. Uh it also uh the television news and I think if you look at the dailies or the television news, uh a front page uh page A3, primarily negative things about the public schools. Now, we also I showed, it showed in the survey, both the survey, it paralleled the Gallup poll in that uh here in Hawaii
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Yeah. Two thirds of the adults do not have children in K to 12. Only one third of the adult population uh send their youngsters to, or have youngsters that they send to, to K to 12. So what about the other two thirds? Well, they get their news primarily from the media also. And so, I'm not uh surprised that uh they have a certain perception, uh that perception of the schools.
[00:19:27] John Dolly: Why do you suppose the percentage of of students in the private schools is so high in Hawaii? As I understand it, it's it's the highest in the nation. Is that because of the the history of of uh society here in Hawaii or is there some other reason?
[00:19:42] Randall Roth: Randy, if you look at the uh uh if you look at the statistics of over the past uh 10, 20 years, it has not changed that much. It has always remained about 16-17%. Uh, in fact, every year we're finding that the public school population is going up. Uh and and as I pointed out, it'll be like that for the next 10 years, over 3000 a year. Uh, the we expect the private uh school population to kind of hold steady. Uh, the high percentage uh, it's uh uh, has been there for what? Over 125 years.
[00:20:20] Randall Roth: Yolani has been there quite some time. Uh it's been a tradition. Uh if you look at these private schools and parochial schools, they've been there for quite some time. Uh and uh I don't think it's a recent uh happening.
[00:20:34] John Dolly: John, you've written about uh the importance of having an enforced uh code in the schools and that disruptive students have to be removed. Oh, I I think somewhere we've gotten um a little crazy in education um and I blame the federal government for a lot of this. Uh, if you ever looked at the rules and regulations imposed on public schools in this country, they're beyond belief. I mean, Hawaii is not alone on this. I've got a daughter working in a district on the mainland, and then you know, when I listen to her and listen to the problems they have enforcing rules and regulations, it's really, it's it's beyond belief.
[00:21:15] John Dolly: We have kids in the schools that we simply can't handle and yet we have no mechanism in some cases for getting them out of there. I don't think schools should be required to keep youngsters in there who are so disruptive they are ruining the learning environment for other people. I think you have a right to attend school, I think you have a right to an education, but you lose that right when you start interfering with other people's right to that education.
[00:21:45] Randall Roth: Charlie, is that something that the DOE could do on its own or would that take something from the legislature to to start uh expelling students that are disruptive? Randy, in Hawaii, we've always had a law which is uh called the compulsory uh school attendance law. Youngsters in Hawaii from 6 to 18 uh are required to attend school, and we are required to provide the education. Uh, we've had a number of debates in the past and the legislature, uh Senator Ron, whether we should lower the age to 16, and I think one Senator even proposed 14, and that make it uh voluntary after that age.
[00:22:30] Randall Roth: Uh for example, after age 17, 18, make it voluntary, and leave it up to the parents and to the youngsters. Uh, I would be concerned if we don't put something else in place prior to lowering that age. Uh I don't think we want to be in a position to uh just to throw kids out of school uh into the community, and we're just going to suffer the consequences uh if we do that. I believe that if we're going to move to lowering the age, we need to provide some alternative for for our youngsters. And that might be the the way of addressing that issue.
[00:23:04] John Dolly: John, do you feel that that we as a community here in Hawaii have have misplaced priorities? Um, we talk about wanting [unintelligible — audio glitch] top quality system of education, but the funding doesn't seem to be there and the community doesn't seem to be outraged about it. I think to a certain extent, um, the, you know, here, I'm going to blame the private schools. I think we have so many people who are in fact well educated, uh who are well connected in the community, who have an interest in the community, uh have their identity with private schools and don't necessarily have it with public education.
[00:23:50] John Dolly: I also think we need to make a greater investment in preschool and early childhood programs. I think there's enough evidence that if you can get the kids early and give them some good basic skills and simply attending in school besides verbal and and other kinds of skills that we can really make a difference.
[00:24:10] John Dolly: And I, I mean uh this is probably heresy for me to say it, but I would look at the total education budget in the state and you know if we have to take funds, look at it as an enterprise, I'd be more inclined to put the money in, in in preschool programs than I would in, uh say research programs at the university if you're looking at long term state needs. Charlie, how do you feel about that?
[00:24:30] Randall Roth: I I tend to agree with the um the need for a very comprehensive preschool program. Uh that is I think key because we're not meeting the uh the first goal of the the national goal for education that is to get children ready to attend school. That all children will be ready to attend school by the year 2000. We'll never make it uh at the rate we're continuing. I hope that all of the policymakers in Hawaii can make the same commitment to public education as they did the recently uh with the Convention Center. Uh and in fact, prior to that, there was a commitment to put in a mass transit system.
[00:25:14] Randall Roth: Why can't we make the same kind of commitment for to our youngsters and one good area to start is the preschool program as John pointed out.
[00:25:22] John Dolly: John, after listening to all of this and I know you and Charlie talk a lot, are you optimistic? Yeah, we've got good people. I think uh if we give the people the necessary support to bring about the changes that the system needs, I think they'll do it. But I think we've got to get rid of some of the bureaucratic nonsense and to me, that includes some of the union contract language that has to be changed to give people the freedom they need to make the positive changes. Any final thoughts from you, Charlie?
[00:25:52] Randall Roth: Yeah Randy, I don't want to leave without letting you know that we are graduating good students from public schools. In fact, I can vouch for uh many of these youngsters who still attend the Ivy League schools, the the schools on the East Coast, etc. I think what we're not doing is that we're not providing a good education for all children and and it's the bottom third that I'm very concerned about.
[00:26:20] John Dolly: Well, my daughter graduated from the public high schools and she's doing fine in college, so I'm I'm a proud parent of public school children. Thank you, gentlemen. Our guests this week were UH Dean of Education John Dally and State Superintendent of Schools Charles Toguchi. For information about future programs, send a self-addressed, stamped envelope to Hawaii Public Radio, 738 Kaheka Street, Honolulu, Hawaii 96814.
[00:26:46] Randall Roth: We also would like to hear your thoughts about what we've said or not said. Those comments can be sent to Hawaii Public Radio or faxed to me at 956-6402. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
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