Public Education in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-04-01
Guests: Karen Knudsen (member, State Board of Education); John Dolly (Dean, University of Hawaii College of Education)
Duration: 01:08:46

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: version on public education in Hawaii. The Price of Paradise regularly airs Saturday mornings at 9:00 on this station, and then again Sunday mornings at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 and KKUA 90.7. Hawaii Public Radio recently installed equipment that allows listeners to call in their questions and comments. Today's show is a test run of sorts, so I hope you'll be patient if we have a technical glitch or two. We'll be taking your calls in just a few minutes. Our number is 9558821. As mentioned, today's topic is public education in Hawaii, and here to discuss it are Karen Knutsen, member of the State Board of Education, and John Dolly, Dean of the UH College of Education. John, the Lieutenant Governor's task force in 1980 or 1991, called Hawaii's educational system unwieldy and inefficient, a confusing and top heavy complex that diffuses and dilutes responsibility and renders accountability impossible.

[00:01:00] Randall Roth: Last year, Board of Education member Lex Brody wrote a critical report where he lamented that something is desperately wrong. Just last week, Bud Smiser ended a series of articles on public education in Hawaii, and he called our system simply awful. John, is our system really that bad?

[00:01:20] John Dolly: It's probably no worse than state government in general. I think that the system is too large, too bureaucratic, but I think there have been attempts made at trying to decentralize, and I think that's the goal. I think that's what the Lieutenant Governor was getting at. That we need to make decision-making real, it has to be at the school level and somebody has to be accountable for that decision-making, and right now it's very hard to tell who's making decisions, why they're being made and who's accountable for those decisions.

[00:01:46] Randall Roth: So, if you were to change one thing, tell me what it would be.

[00:01:52] John Dolly: I would do a massive decentralization of sorts. I would have smaller districts, I would have those districts held accountable for the schools within their region or area, and I would hold principals and district superintendents far more accountable for performance of students within the schools.

[00:02:09] Randall Roth: Karen, what would you do? If you had the power to change something, what would be tops on your list?

[00:02:15] Karen Knudsen: First of all, I'd make sure that education is a top priority for all of my people. If I were, you know, big political leader in the state. I'd also make sure that our schools were adequately funded. I think it's dismal when you see how much money is actually earmarked for education in the state, and I think that's where the message is sent that education is not important.

[00:02:35] Randall Roth: Why has change been so slow in coming, Karen?

[00:02:38] Karen Knudsen: Well, we are a statewide, we're the only statewide system in the whole country, and with that come a lot of problems. But I must say that we also have a lot of real positive things that we've been able to do because of our highly centralized system. We don't have the disparity, or the lack of of equity that you find in many other states, and I think we have to keep that in mind.

[00:02:59] Randall Roth: I see. John, several years ago, the Governor committed himself to an educational system second to none. I hear you saying that ours has a lot of problems. What went wrong?

[00:03:11] John Dolly: Well, I think all systems have a lot of problems. I mean, it's a nationwide problem. People are looking at public education, and a lot of people are saying it's simply not working. And I think a lot of that's tied to social problems, but that's getting off the topic. I think the Governor did make a very strong commitment. I think he made education within his own platform a high priority. He increased the salaries of teachers. He increased the salaries of principals. He provided funds for new construction. The schools today look significantly better than they did when John Waihee first stepped into the governorship. I think the only mistake John Waihee made was that before he gave the money and before he made that massive commitment of resources, he should have gotten something in return, I think from the unions. He should have gotten some concessions. I think it's very difficult to get after the fact.

[00:03:57] Randall Roth: In case you've just joined us, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are Board of Education member Karen Knutsen and UH Dean of Education, John Dolly. The topic is public education in Hawaii, and the phone lines are open. To ask a question or make a comment, just dial 9558821. That number again is 9558821. We have George from Manoa on the line. George, welcome.

[00:04:25] Caller: I'd like to try out an idea on your panel. Um, all of the I I have lived here 30 years and I've taught at the university for 30 years, and it seems to me that there are some improvements but they're few and far between. I'd like to make a suggestion and see what your panel thinks about it. Um number one, uh, pay all your uh, teachers from K to 12, $100,000 a year, minimum. Number two, uh, keep the class size to 15, and number three, limit the time a teacher can keep teaching the system to 10 years. Um, it's and then then number four, get rid of the whole bureaucracy, the board, and everything else. You don't need all that. You need somebody to do bookkeeping and see if a a teacher-oriented rather than uh, politician-oriented, kind of uh educational system would work. Uh, I'd like to hear what you say about that.

[00:05:22] Randall Roth: Well, first of all, George, I wish you were in charge of salaries at the University of Hawaii, where I work. Um, Karen, what do you think of George's suggestions?

[00:05:30] Karen Knudsen: Uh, first of all, I like the idea of making our school system teacher-oriented and always foremost think of what the impact will be in the classroom before any decisions are made. Um, paying teachers K to 12 $100,000 a year, I mean, I'd like to be able to do something like that, but unfortunately that's not realistic. Um, but I do think the change in philosophy to become more teacher-oriented is excellent.

[00:06:10] Randall Roth: What about the limiting of teaching to 10 years and having people coming and going?

[00:06:17] Karen Knudsen: I don't think that's very realistic, nor fair. I think a lot of people in many professions even get better and better as they grow professionally.

[00:06:44] Randall Roth: John, what do you think?

[00:06:45] John Dolly: Well, I mean, the reality is if they paid $100,000 to be a classroom teacher, I'd probably sign up to be a classroom teacher. It would certainly draw an entirely different type of individual to teaching. It would clearly send a message that teaching is important in our society, and it would make it a premier occupation. So obviously, I would support that. Class size 15, I I don't I haven't seen any great data that that indicates to me that a class size of 15 is going to be any better than say 20 other than you can give more individual attention. That's only if the teacher is really equipped to give individual attention. Um, to say that we're going to have teacher oriented schools, I'd rather have student oriented schools. Not worry about the teachers. I think that's one of our problems. We're worrying about teachers and principals, not about students. And the issue of more than 10 years, I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is that we have some very good teachers, but those teachers need to keep up with their fields. And if people are paid appropriately and are required to maintain their knowledge level, I think that would make, make up for any concern that people are getting perhaps out of touch with with their knowledge base or with their skills, teaching skills.

[00:08:14] Randall Roth: I see. Lines are open. The number is 9558821. Well, what I heard in in George's suggestions basically was that the school system is underfunded, that we need to come up with more money. Karen, I assume you would agree with that.

[00:08:28] Karen Knudsen: Yes. Uh, how how much underfunded is it? Well, I think we're considerably. Looking at our facilities, looking at the the fact that we're 800 classroom short statewide. Um, we could just go on and on with that. I can't really put a dollar figure on it right now, but I know it's more than a billion dollars just to begin with, with our um facilities. Let alone bringing salaries up to what they should be competitively.

[00:09:11] Randall Roth: Why wouldn't our community, through our elected officials, uh, support education more than we have when it comes to the dollars?

[00:09:59] Karen Knudsen: You know, with poll after poll, people are saying they are willing even to pay an extra tax to support education. So I'm not sure why the message isn't getting through to the legislature. Uh, the fo the folks at the legislature seem to be very committed, but I'm not sure at the end of each legislative session, we come up short.

[00:10:14] Randall Roth: John, do you have any theory on that?

[00:10:17] John Dolly: I think there's a great distrust of education among legislators. I think there is confused as the general public on how we should be organized and how we're going to hold people accountable, and I think they're nervous about giving a massive infusion of funds into a system where they feel no one is really accountable for performance. And until that changes, I don't see the money coming.

[00:10:36] Randall Roth: The phone lines are open. To ask a question or make a comment, just dial 9558821. The number again, 9558821. Well, John, I know that there's a study being conducted right now that's trying to pin down the exact percentage of the budget that's actually getting to the classroom. Uh, what's that all about?

[00:10:56] John Dolly: I'm not sure what it's about, other than I think there is a concern that too much money goes to bureaucracy, administration, um, support activities, but the money is not getting directly to students. Um, we were talking before the show, I had a chance to visit a rural school in South Carolina a week ago. And what was interesting is they spend significantly less per pupil than we do. Uh, nevertheless, the classroom environment was very rich with computers, materials, support uh, for teachers. I think those are the right questions to ask. Where are the dollars going? And our concern should be that the money goes to support students, not the peripherals, but students. I'd be much more concerned with having a high quality education for a student, rather than a brand new building.

[00:11:38] Karen Knudsen: I'm looking forward to the outcome of this audit as well, um, to find out how much actually is getting into the classroom. And of course, we're we're told that by the time cafeteria workers, maintenance workers, um, and a number of other areas need to be taken care of. Therefore, the little bit that is left over goes into the classroom, and of course, that's wrong. Now how do we get around that, how do we take some of that off, I'm not really sure, but I think this audit, unfortunately, we should have done this ourselves, I think, but um I I welcome the outcome of this audit.

[00:12:07] Randall Roth: Something that I don't understand at all. There's, there seems to be a $200 million fund that's been earmarked for school construction and yet it can't seem to be tapped. Uh various candidates for for governor are saying, I'm going to tap it. Well, why hasn't it been tapped before now? Karen?

[00:12:44] Karen Knudsen: I can't give you a real straight answer on that. That, um announcement in the Governor's State of the State address took the board by surprise. Uh, I I don't think that money is just sitting there, not being used. There are, we have a lot of different rules and regs and and working with a number of different agencies that makes it very difficult to move our construction forward. Um, I don't think it's a full $200 million in the in the um information we had gathered immediately after that, it gave a really clear explanation as to why this money was not being moved, but that's still not an excuse. I mean, we need to then figure out how to move it quicker. But I think it was um a comment that probably I would have preferred the Governor with a little bit more information when he made a public comment like that.

[00:13:07] Randall Roth: John, I know at the beginning of this show, you said something about our public school system wasn't any worse than government in general and I know communities around the country are considering different forms of privatization. For example, a private company is functioning as Superintendent of Schools in Minneapolis. Why would a private company be hired to run a public school system?

[00:13:28] John Dolly: Well, I think it just it it indicates a degree of frustration um, both among politicians and the general public with not getting the kinds of results they'd like to see from tax money spent on education. Um, I don't know whether I'm opposed to it or in support of it. I think it's an interesting experiment. Uh, I think it's something we ought to take a hard look at, and to see if in fact, uh there are ways of making schools more effective. That doesn't mean we have to buy into the privatization, but they may be doing things that would make our own public schools far more effective, and therefore we should, at least, take a hard look at what's working and what's not working.

[00:14:06] Karen Knudsen: I'd like to comment on that. Feel free to be about the privatization. Um, I would like to see something like that, perhaps, started here. I wouldn't try to block it. However, in meeting with some of the different companies who offer the privatization, they make it very clear that they also want to be able to have the ability to choose what students they can have come to school or not to have. So they can get rid of students if they are troublemakers. They have a lot more freedom and flexibility than the public schools now have. So there are a number of things like that that makes it look very good. Um on the other hand, some of the ideas that they brought out, um I'm thinking why don't we look at that and do it ourselves, um and I think we can learn from them.

[00:14:44] Randall Roth: Well, Karen, what should be done with disruptive students?

[00:14:48] Karen Knudsen: That's a great question. I'm almost at the point of zero tolerance, kind of like Clinton's three strikes you're out. Um I think we need to take a much harder stand um when students are disrupting the classroom. And it's a very difficult uh dilemma because often the way the process is, a teacher needs to back up her allegations and it goes on and on. Um I would like to have a classroom set aside for students perhaps who are disruptive and then take them immediately out of the classroom. The teacher makes the decision right away and those students know her limits, and therefore there's no argument. Therefore, they they know their behavior that will be accepted in that classroom, because otherwise, it's not fair to the other students, and we're paying a price.

[00:15:28] John Dolly: I agree. I think uh we have to take a hard look at what's good for the majority of students. And particularly in some high schools, I think we have situations where a handful of disruptive students are so destroying the learning environment for a majority of the students that it's simply counterproductive, and it's simply unfair. Nobody is entitled to engage in that kind of behavior and be supported by state funds forever. Uh I think you have to give students some chances, but uh the three strikes you're out rule uh would make sense.

[00:15:59] Randall Roth: It's been said that no one is accountable under the current structure. Governor Waihee initially pushed the idea of an appointed school board, but that didn't fly. Recently, he suggested that the school board be given taxing authority. John, what are your thoughts on this?

[00:16:14] John Dolly: Uh, I don't like either one, but um I think it's kind of confusing right now. I still remember my first uh opportunity to vote in the state of Hawaii, looking at a list of 34 people running for a school board, not knowing who any of them really were. I happen to know one because I had met that individual prior to the election. Uh that kind of a system is crazy. I think we need to have elections in in such a way that people are elected from districts where you know who you're voting for. Uh, how you do that, I don't think matters a whole lot. Uh, whether or not we're going to have a If we had an appointed board, I'm not so sure it would be better. We'd have some people perhaps involved from the business community, some leaders who in fact uh might have more prestige, those kinds of things. Uh interesting in Hawaii, very few of those people would probably have their own children in public schools. So I'm kind of opposed to the appointed board, but I would like to see an election process where people would actually know who they're voting for.

[00:17:10] Randall Roth: I want to come back to that in just a moment, but right now we have a caller, Peter. You're on.

[00:17:15] Caller: Um, I'd like to address the issue of accountability. Um, kind of from both ends. You all are talking right now about accountability from the top end. And as we've noticed, there's a huge difference between what people say at the decision-making level at the top and what actually happens at the school. Um, one of the things that seems to me that that needs to be done in a company with the SCBM movement, is to uh get ourselves a situation where we have principals in individual schools have a great deal more decision-making and monetary fiscal power, and at the same time, have a responsibility to that school who can be hired for their account for their abilities rather than for their seniority and fired for the same reasons. Um, and at the same time point, I think we also need to articulate what exactly it is we want each of our schools to do. It seems to me we all can agree generally we want a better education, but there's some disputes as to what exactly we mean by that and how we're going to assess that.

[00:18:06] Randall Roth: Great comments. Karen, uh, how are we going to assess that?

[00:18:11] Karen Knudsen: Well, I think you brought up a lot of good points and uh [unintelligible — audio glitch] whole notion of um an SCBM council hiring a principal, which kind of alluded to, um is something that I don't think we're going to see in the near future, although I think we can kind of work towards that a little bit. And yes, more accountability, more getting down into the individual schools, that seems to be the way we're trying to promote it, trying to get to that.

[00:18:35] Randall Roth: Why, why is it that the principal is such an important person in the schools, Karen?

[00:18:40] Karen Knudsen: Well, he can inspire as any leader or head of a company, he can inspire and he can also destroy morale. And good principals, you can see the staff, the parents, the people get behind that person. A principal's responsibilities are immense and incredible. Good principals are terrific uh human interactors. Um they also know their profession very well, and I think we really need to develop our principals to be strong leaders.

[00:19:00] Randall Roth: among some principals, and I think that that's too bad. I think it's it's something that the state bargained away, that it should never have bargained away and it's going to take I think a courageous governor, whoever that person may be, to deal with that issue and take it head-on in the next negotiations with the union. It's interesting in Lex Brody's report where he was talking about having visited all the schools, he said he could he got to where he could tell what the principal would be like by looking at the school. That the principal really had an impact on that school. John, what are your thoughts about the importance of the principal in the schools?

[00:19:17] Caller: Let's go back to our caller Peter, are you there?

[00:19:21] John Dolly: Oh, I agree. I think a principal's key, um as are the are the faculty, the teachers themselves. A good principal will have I think tremendous support among the faculty. There'll be a good feeling about the schools. I think there'll be a greater level of participation in decision-making, and so that person is a key and I kind of agree with the caller. I mean, we're going to have to hold principals more accountable. The notion to me of principals having tenure in the schools is absolutely absurd. I'm totally opposed to that, and I think that's something that has to be changed if we're serious about school reform in this state.

[00:19:22] Caller: Um, I I think that the discussion on the principles is is very good, certainly I agree with what's just been said. It seems to me though that that we're still reflecting here a notion that if there's a a problem, let's say with an individual principle, we've got here a system where you go up from there through the bureaucracy. There's decision made, processes followed and comes back down to that level. The problem with the individual schools, it seems to me is that the parents are left out of that loop and if you want parent involvement, which gets back to the whole issue of student behavior in the classroom, if you want parents concerned about what their children are doing, if you want parents to feel that they have a a voice in the system, then you can't say, well, you get to vote every so many months on who's going to run the school system and they will take care of your concerns.

[00:19:51] Randall Roth: John, can you tell us just what you mean by tenure as an administrator?

[00:19:55] John Dolly: Oh well basically, if you get hired as a principal in a school in Hawaii, um you're in there for life if you want to stay there. I mean, there's no way people are going to get rid of you unless your performance is so incredibly bad and you're documenting that over time that you can follow the due process and the union contract to get rid of that person. Uh for example, at the university, if you're appointed as an administrator, you may maintain your tenure as a teacher or a professor, but not your tenure in terms of um as an administrator, you're never tenured. You might have a year to year contract, but at the end of that year, you're assessed and if the institution doesn't want you anymore as an administrator, you're gone. And I think that's the kind of system we should have in the public schools.

[00:20:05] Caller: The parents have to be able to say, my child is not getting what they need in this school and I have to have a valid way of expressing my frustration. And as a parent with children in the public school system, um and also who has now placed his children in private school situations, I've done that specifically because I was unable to uh get through the bureaucratic hurdles to actually not only express but have something happen about my concerns with the educational system. Um it's maybe SCBM isn't the way to go in terms of hiring principles or in terms of reviewing faculty performance, but there needs to be a more direct sense for individual parents that in fact their voices are being listened to, not just given lip service to.

[00:20:36] Randall Roth: Why would our principals in the public schools be in a union? I I think it's unheard of that supervisors in private industry are in unions, and certainly administrators at UH as you say aren't in unions. Why in our public school system would they be in unions? Mhm. Let's talk a little bit about SCBM. Karen, can you tell us what the status of that program is right now?

[00:20:50] John Dolly: Well, I I think um we have a union mentality in this state that's kind of running amok, but that that's my own uh view. I think there's a great deal of insecurity obviously

[00:20:51] Karen Knudsen: It's ongoing. It's very dynamic right now. It sometimes can take a community a little while to um really pull together their proposals to implement and the committee that I just chaired up until last week looked over the SCBM. And I expressed some concern that in some instances, it would take up to three years for an SCBM council to put together their proposal to implement. I'm not that patient. I want to see things move much more quickly. However, if that community took that long and it was up to them, that's what we have to respect. Um SCBM is there. There are a number of things that can be done through SCBM and I think we're we're going to start seeing schools take a really bold steps and I encourage them to.

[00:21:31] Randall Roth: Well now, SCBM as I understand it, basically means that the parents and in the community itself will be involved in running the school. Right. And yet, there's more to it than just hiring a principal?

[00:21:42] Karen Knudsen: Oh, yeah. Can you tell us some of the other specific things that that group would do? Hiring the principal was one uh I guess a couple of schools have come to the board and and then to the unions wanting to hire a principal, but they also can have incredible say over the kind of curriculum taught. Um my elementary decided to go to a four-day school week and uh spend the fifth day on enrichment activities, so there's flexibility in scheduling. Um there are a number of different ideas. In fact, I can't even tell you everything because they can the sky's the limit with that. I'm waiting for for an SCBM council to come with a really bold proposal. Either we're going to have all students wearing uniforms because it will help our behavior or this is what we're going to do for discipline and you know, sky's the limit.

[00:22:24] Randall Roth: In case you've just joined us, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Board of Education member Karen Kunuun and UH Dean of Education, John Dolly. The topic is public education in Hawaii, and the phone lines are open. To ask a question or make a comment, just dial 955-8821. People on the neighbor islands can call collect. That number again is 955-8821. Well Karen, I know recently there have been some articles in the newspaper that the the SCBM at Lanikai has been quite upset that they asked the union for an exemption in hiring their principal. Evidently they've had six principals in four and a half years. And as I understand it, they have no choice. They have to hire the applicant who has the most seniority. Is that true?

[00:23:15] Karen Knudsen: Basically, that's I mean we do have that system in place so that they cannot just go out and hire whoever they want to.

[00:23:21] Randall Roth: There there must be a reason for that, but it strikes me as as crazy if we're really trying to do what's best for the kids.

[00:23:26] Karen Knudsen: Again, it is the the board has supported the SCBM council's proposal, but the union was not comfortable with that at this point. Now I'm hoping at some time, uh we will be able to have more flexibility with our unions and particularly, um the the Principals Union. I think that's something that's being said loud and clear over and over. Um Lanikai has had a large turnover because it's a very small school and the salary is often based on the um size of the school, so it's not a reflection on the school. It's because of promotion opportunities there and I can certainly appreciate their um desire to have somebody with a commitment to that community.

[00:24:02] Randall Roth: Uh, Peter, our caller a little bit ago was asking, how do we measure quality? Uh John, the community at least seems to have the impression that our public school system is is not very good right now. Certainly not as good as we want it to be. How do you measure that? Is it test scores or something else?

[00:24:20] John Dolly: Uh, no one is real happy with um their education system by and large across the country. I think everybody wants their schools to be better and what's interesting is when you have polls, very often parents who have kids in schools say that their individual school is doing uh reasonably well or doing very well with their own children, but that the system itself has problems. And that that's kind of a fascinating piece of data that's pretty consistent across things. I think we need to have assessment that's reasonable. Uh, I think having assessments fine um I support assessment. I think what what has scared me in this state is we've used the um uh the Stanford test um and I think to a certain extent it's been misused by both the press and the general public in terms of making assessments of the school.

[00:25:03] John Dolly: You need to have some general measures of how kids are performing, you need to have some measures of how schools are performing, but you also have to realize what the mix of kids are in in different schools and you simply can't compare school A with school B. Uh, those kinds of things don't work. One thing that's always made me nervous in this state, having a single statewide system, is that the people doing the assessment are the people who are in the system itself. In other states, the state superintendent often has an evaluation arm that's totally independent of the school system, and that evaluation arm in a sense provides data to the legislature, the general public, the governor, and that data is public about how schools are performing, how principles are performing, how teachers are performing.

[00:25:42] John Dolly: We don't have that accessibility to data in this state. We have one test score.

[00:25:46] Randall Roth: Why don't we?

[00:25:47] John Dolly: Partly because of the way the state departments organized. Uh the the state superintendent and the entire the entire evaluation arm are part of the system. They're not an independent agency.

[00:25:58] Randall Roth: Getting back to uh this this authority question or the accountability question, uh the governor recently suggested that perhaps it's time to give the school board taxing authority. So that if things aren't going well, the community will know just who not only is calling the shots, but can raise the money in order to um uh provide for what it is that the community is asking for. Karen, you're on the Board of Education, how do you feel about that suggestion?

[00:26:22] Karen Knudsen: I thought it was a very bold suggestion. Um I think it would have taken a while. We were the idea was to put together a couple of teams to credit to try to work this out. It was such an unusual idea. Um I think it made a lot of sense. I would like to have seen it taken a little bit farther, although I can understand the concern of of many people. Um we also, in addition to perhaps having the authority to raise taxes, we could also lower taxes. I don't know if that's ever been done, but that is, you know, definitely a possibility, but at least we would have some control over the funds. And it's it is a crazy system right now to go begging each year to the legislature, and uh then have them say, no you can't have this, but my district, we're going to build this over here, we're going to give this in my district.

[00:27:04] Karen Knudsen: It's crazy that way, so I would like to have been able to um have a little bit more authority.

[00:27:09] Randall Roth: We have a caller from Manoah, Mike, you're on the air.

[00:27:12] Caller: Hi, yeah. Comments and a question. The comment is that I've often thought that the reason for the somewhat run-down and underfunded state of uh education in Hawaii, including the University, by the way, uh could be the economy, namely that when uh tourism and a few other sort of service industries are the main thing out there, um in a way the state perhaps has tacitly come to the view that it doesn't want very highly and well-educated children. I mean what would they do if we suddenly started turning out people who had uh aspirations beyond the hamburger flipping or menial jobs in tourism? Uh the question is whether uh school based community management and privatization are really a way to go.

[00:27:48] Caller: It seems to me it's like the state throwing up its hands and saying, okay, you do it. We've we've made a mess of it. See if you can do any better. And I want I've never understood and perhaps you can enlighten me what the protections are. Should we really go this uh either of those routes against um say wealthy uh school districts or wealthy areas and more I'd like my parents uh getting their school uh in good shape, getting the the principle, perhaps even getting exemptions from union restrictions on hiring, for example, uh and then down the road in Kalihi, perhaps um things aren't going too well and the rich will get richer, the poor get poorer?

[00:28:20] Randall Roth: Interesting question. Karen, what's the answer?

[00:28:23] Karen Knudsen: Um I think there are some valid concerns with that. However, I think Hawaii has a lot more protection against anything like that, the equity problem than we see on the mainland. Um that we still run into the problems. There are certain areas of the state where people are a lot more adept at going and lobbying the legislature. You'll find certain pockets of the state where it's the schools are in really good repair as opposed to others and a lot of that is from the lobbying effort with the legislature.

[00:28:46] Randall Roth: Won't that get worse though, as we decentralize?

[00:28:49] Karen Knudsen: Could. Yeah, I think that could be. Although there is, well, yes, it could be.

[00:28:54] Randall Roth: John, do you have any thoughts on this?

[00:28:55] John Dolly: I think the caller's right, um the rich may get richer and the poor may get poorer. I mean, in in a sense, that's going to happen. Um it it's already happening on the mainland and it may happen here. That's that's not going to necessarily hurt things. I think the the key is the state still has an obligation to see that there's equitable funding, and if there's equitable funding with some accountability, the state can still hold the school to the fire in terms of how our kids performing, are they being well-served? regardless of the system. I think we know we have a system that's not working, so we need to look at changing the system. but we can't keep putting up barriers to change because we're afraid a school may get better, and that school's going to be better than school B and C over here because school A is going to have extra resources.

[00:29:38] John Dolly: Uh yeah, sure. If it's an upper middle class neighborhood, you're going to have more parental involvement. That's a fact of life. But you don't penalize everybody and lower the standard to the least common denominator to ensure equity, you try and bring those other schools up to that higher level.

[00:29:52] Randall Roth: We have several callers on the line. Uh first, Ursula from Kailua, you're on the air.

[00:29:57] Caller: Hi. Um I'm uh been a public school uh parent for many, many years, and I've been very active as a public school parent. And uh at the same time, I'm also probably real supportive of radical uh education reform and I've lost a lot of patience through my volunteer work because it seems to just be at an incredibly slow pace. My question to the panel is that we know what works, we know there are a variety of ways to uh um educate children successfully. But one of the things that doesn't seem to come out enough in the discussion about education is how do we create choice? I have three children, all of them have different learning styles. I'd love to have the choice of going to several different type of curriculums for each one of them, but I don't.

[00:30:41] Caller: I have to go to my local public school, I've got to do whatever curriculum or lack thereof uh and take it. And um so I'd really as a parent would love to be able to have in one district have a Montessori public school, have a Waldorf public school, have a multi-age un uh ungraded uh public school. Um

[00:34:29] Randall Roth: So how do we find a way that's going to get these type of options available? Great question Ursula. Karen, do you have an answer for her?

[00:34:36] Karen Knudsen: Yeah, a lot of it, um problem could be for individual schools like that, just resources. If you have an individual school with a Waldorf or the Montessori, uh you have to have the trained teachers, you need to have the backup, you need the equipment for the Montessori. Um and actually I've mentioned to some parents, why not through the SCBM, come and and with a proposal to have a Montessori teaching method, for instance for the younger grades or even the older grades? There is a possibility to go that way. With SCBM, you can um have a develop a curriculum, or say you want this curriculum. Of course you need the agreement of other members of the community.

[00:35:07] Karen Knudsen: But I'd say the reason we can't individualize different schools that much is just the lack of resources.

[00:35:12] Randall Roth: In case you've just joined us, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are Board of Education member Karen Kunuun and UH Dean of Education, John Dolly. The topic is public education in Hawaii and the phone lines are open. To ask a question or make a comment, just dial 955-8821 from the neighbor islands, just call collect. The number again is 955-8821. Well we have a caller, George from Pukakea. George, you're on the air.

[00:35:38] Caller: Uh, thank you. I talk about sticks of dynamite. It seems to me that the uh um real decentralization of the system uh might be a stick of dynamite. It would help but I I would like to comment particularly on the question of uh of the elected versus the appointed school board. We everyone's talking about what we ought to do is have an appointed board, as though it were something entirely brand new. And of course, we went for over half a century with an appointed board and the people of Hawaii decided in their constitutional convention that they didn't want it any longer. They wanted to put the the governance of the schools in the hands of the people and so then we went to an elected school board.

[00:36:17] Caller: I agree with Dean Dolly that the method that they use for electing is kind of crazy because they have that one-shot deal because the the constitution mandates a a non-political election, which is crazy to think about, uh school governance is not being a political question, it most certainly is a political question. But even with that, the legislature didn't have to have just a single uh one-shot deal. That's why you got 35 people running for the same seat. They ought to be a runoff election. They can have a runoff election without having a a political party thing if that's what they're concerned about.

[00:36:47] Randall Roth: So George, you're saying stick with uh the election approach, but do it right.

[00:36:51] Caller: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:52] Randall Roth: Let's see what Karen has to say about that.

[00:36:54] Karen Knudsen: The first year I ran was the first year they had a primary. When my name was first placed on the ballot, there were like 35 names. But then we had the primary and it was narrowed down for Oahu at large to six candidates and then three of us made it. So that made it a lot more manageable, so if we can keep that primary, that should help.

[00:37:09] Randall Roth: Yeah, I must have missed it.

[00:37:11] Karen Knudsen: Well, you'll see it next year.

[00:37:13] Randall Roth: John, what do you think about all this?

[00:37:14] John Dolly: [unintelligible — audio glitch] totally agree with George. I think the system we have is crazy and we've got to do something where people know who they're voting for and the philosophical and practical positions that that person's going to take on the board. It's too important to leave up to chance. I want to respond to to Ursula's question before about choice. I think we could have more choice options in the public schools. I think we've demonstrated, I think I look at elementary over in Hawaii, uh they got four wonderful schools within a school over there. Oh why can't other schools do that? I think it's going to take parental involvement, I think the parents ought to demand it, I think they ought to put pressure on to have those options in their schools.

[00:37:49] John Dolly: We have schools that are doing it in Hawaii, so the idea that we can't do it is simply wrong. We have good leadership in that school and a very creative staff and they're doing some wonderful things with kids that really give the parents a choice.

[00:38:02] Randall Roth: George, you mentioned uh a stick of dynamite. Where would you put that stick of dynamite?

[00:38:06] Caller: No, I said uh decentralization, it ought to be, each island ought to be governing its own uh business and not have it done from a central office in Honolulu. Uh Oahu ought to be really divided up into a couple parts, with the people in the community electing their own school board.

[00:38:21] Randall Roth: And and why isn't that happening?

[00:38:23] Caller: Why? Well, because we have this tradition in Hawaii, we had since monarchical days of having a centralized government. Uh, we very lately got uh city uh and county government uh in the state that was meaningful, that is in this century. And uh it's been uh the part of the central government very reluctantly giving up any power.

[00:38:43] Karen Knudsen: Karen, is it that your view? One of one of the concerns because the the idea of District School boards has been, yeah, bandied around quite a bit. I think one obstacle I've heard is that the legislature, the thought of having a lot of different school boards coming and lobbying them was a little bit overwhelming. Um, I'm just not sure if that's real that is, but Yeah, let's

[00:39:00] Caller: Sure. No doubt. But if but if if the funding were set up in such a way that it wouldn't that it would be a lump sum kind of a thing. Right. Right.

[00:39:08] Karen Knudsen: No, that's a good idea.

[00:39:09] Randall Roth: Sounds great. Thank you, George. Um Karen, I read something a few weeks ago about a possible lowering of standards, so fewer students would fail. What's that all about?

[00:39:19] Karen Knudsen: I'm glad you brought that up. Last week I was named chair of the curriculum committee for the board and that is the first thing that will be on our agenda next Wednesday, to address that. And, um, I've had a lot of comments, a lot of concerns. I just came from the HSTA convention breakfast this morning. Teachers are concerned about that. I think we need to reconcile the the memo that was developed by the Department and where what I'm sensing most of the board members are coming from with this. Um if the message is being sent that we're lowering standards, we've got to stop that right away. And I'm not comfortable with the idea of substituting um anything for a language requirement or a math requirement.

[00:39:56] Karen Knudsen: So um we will address that next week and I'm certain that um it will come to a good outcome.

[00:40:02] Randall Roth: John, are there many people out there that would support a lowering of the standards? As as I understand it the whole idea is to give the kids more self-esteem, that it hurts their self-esteem to fail, so we lower the standards. Is that a serious movement?

[00:40:16] Caller: I I don't think so, but I think there are a lot of misguided people that think if you make kids feel good, that somehow that's going to lead to better performance, and there's no evidence that that's true. I I don't think we push kids enough, quite frankly. I think schools have become too easy. I think we do try and pass on too many kids. We don't hold them accountable. Students too need to be accountable. Everybody keeps talking about teachers being accountable, parents being accountable, the principal being accountable. Well, students need to be accountable and school is hard work. School is not a lark. It isn't fun. It is something that you have to put time into, effort. There does take certain perseverance to get through courses, particularly if you're having difficulty.

[00:40:54] Caller: And I think we're short-changing students by not demanding more. We're turning out people who can't function. And I mean, I would rather see them suffer a little stress in school and be good productive citizens than get out of school and be non-productive, non-producing and people who can't really participate in our society.

[00:41:11] Karen Knudsen: Can I, I'd like to follow up. I I can't tell you how much I agree with what Dean Dolly said about that. School has to be work and you with that comes self-confidence with feeling good of what about what you've accomplished. And I joke a little bit about wanting to pass a policy saying we won't use the word self-esteem the term anymore. I'm maxed out on self-esteem. I think it's good, we need to keep that in the forefront, but that can't guide everything. Hard work builds the confidence and the capability.

[00:41:34] Randall Roth: The topic is public education in Hawaii, the guests are Board of Education member Karen Kaneson and UH Dean of Education, John Dolly. Phone lines are open. To ask a question or make a comment, just dial 955-8821. Neighbor islanders, just call collect. Again, the number is 955-8821. Well, we have a caller, Jerry in Kailua, you're on the air.

[00:41:56] Caller: Uh yes, I have a question concerning uh the idea of independence funding for uh education in Hawaii. And doesn't this leave uh the board open to uh people cutting off the funds. If they don't have children in the public schools, uh you could have a tax revolt. It's very easy to see which taxes go for where, and then uh you would wind up with less. Interesting question, John. Well, I I think that that's one of the dangers of of going to something like a property tax or allowing the school board to raise taxes. I just came back from South Carolina and it was interesting. Their legislature just had a major battle over this. And what's happened is so many retirees have moved into the state that they're simply revolting against the significant increase in property taxes, almost 300% in four years. I know, I own property back there and I'm paying it. Um and what happened in the legislature, they actually garnered 40% of the vote. They almost roll back those taxes, which would have had a devastating effect on public schools.

[00:42:58] Caller: And I think that's one of the realities that if you're going to give people that power, that the assumption that they're going to increase money and increase funding to go to the schools, uh that's a happy assumption. It can work the other way when times are bad and people are hard pressed, they may say, no, enough's enough, we in fact are going to cut our taxes and we're not going to support the schools to the level we're currently supporting.

[00:43:20] Randall Roth: I guess here in Hawaii, where we have the nation's highest percentage of kids in in private schools, that that could be a an especially big concern?

[00:43:28] Caller: I think so, because you could have a lot of upper middle-class parents saying, what are the public schools doing for me? My child's in Iolani or Punahou or whatever. Um, I don't see any benefit. The same thing. We have a large number of retirees in this state. Uh, many of whom may say, hey, I really have no contact with the public school. I don't think it's important. I'd rather have my money going elsewhere.

[00:43:49] Randall Roth: Jerry, are you still there? Okay, next topic, performance standards. Uh John, I think you've said some things about this in the past. At the time I didn't realize that it's a pretty sensitive topic. Can you tell us what that's all about?

[00:44:03] Caller: Well, I think we we've we've tried to muddle through this for the last 20 years. And um particularly in in the field of education, we've tried to identify what students should know. Uh and and this gets down to instead of worrying about say a standardized test score, um that doesn't really mean anything. I mean, if somebody says you have a score of 80 in math, what does that mean? Uh and instead I think there there's a push now to really specify what a student can do. If you complete four years of high school and we give you a diploma, what does this represent in terms of skills and ability? And I think that's what we're trying to set in terms of performance standards.

[00:44:44] Caller: And I think that's a big step. I think the interesting thing about that is, as we get more precise in that area, we may have more failures because we're going to know precisely what's wrong with whom, who can perform what skill, who can't perform what skill. And it it's a two-edge sword. It's going to prove to some people that they're more incompetent than than they think they are. Others are going to find out they're more competent than they think they are. But it's going to put the schools under tremendous pressure because now you're going to have very accurate data on how students are performing and in what areas they're strong, what areas they're weak. And then I think the schools are going to be under tremendous political pressure to address those weaknesses.

[00:45:25] Randall Roth: We have another caller, John in Waikiki, you're on the air.

[00:45:28] Caller: Yes, I have a question focusing not on school governance or hierarchy or administration, but on students themselves, especially those who are motivated. Mhm. Um, what constraints prevent Hawaii from establishing a a math science residential school for its upper academic and students. For example, based on the uh North Carolina School of Science and Math model or Illinois Math Science Academy model, or even the South Carolina Governor School model?

[00:45:56] Karen Knudsen: Karen, good question. I'm not sure that there's anything in place or in writing that prevents that. Um, I'm not familiar with these schools. So, it's something I'd like to look into. Um, it probably just has not been a high priority yet. Again, it's it's not an area that I'm really familiar with.

[00:46:09] Randall Roth: I know Charlie Taguchi in the past commented that if you draw the best kids from various schools to put them in a special school, then you're bringing down the level of the schools that they were at. John, how big of a concern is that?

[00:46:21] Caller: I I think that is a concern. Um, I know North Carolina's done this and South Carolina's done this. And and they're very selective. So we're not talking about massive numbers of students but like in science and math, we may be talking about the top percentile from schools around the state and it gives these students an opportunity to really excel. I think [unintelligible — audio glitch] fear and I think it is a fear in Hawaii, we've already drained off the top 20%. And in effect, if you look at the tests for many of our private schools, they're IQ tests. So we've drained off both the upper middle class in terms of parental involvement and some very bright kids. I don't know if we want to have a public system school system that then takes another cut at the top group and removes them from the school. I think it could do harm to the overall tenor of the academic achievement in schools.

[00:47:07] Karen Knudsen: Karen. It just to to comment about that. I just need to make the statement a little bit when we use as Dean Dolly did we drained off the top, we took the highest IQ, they're in Punahou. Well, I have two kids in the public school, and I like to think that they're very bright, sharp, motivated children. So, I don't think all of us in public schools are just the dredges of society. Um a lot of us are very professional people with a real strong commitment to public education, and I choose to have my children in public school. I think they're getting a fine education. Um, and I also take the responsibility myself to make sure that they do their homework and that kind of thing. And I've never had them tested for Punahou or anything, although I have no problems thinking they would have, at least one of them would have an opportunity to go in if they so chose. So I just want to say that every now and then I get a little bit um

[00:47:51] Randall Roth: We're you're getting a little red as I can tell. Yeah. Because I am a public school and I'm not a, you know, I, my my kids are not in the the top elite perhaps, but I feel very comfortable with where they're at. I I want to comment. I mean, my kids went to public school too, and my youngest daughter completed Kailua intermediate school and Kailua high school, she's a student at UH, so I'm totally committed to public education. But the reality is and and the biggest problem I think in Hawaii is we've got a social class difference here. I mean, people are in private schools on the basis of social class. And and when you pull those people out, all I'm saying is you're pulling out a level of involvement and agitation in a community. I think a lot of those parents who have their kids in private school simply wouldn't tolerate some of the things going on in public schools. And you would have had changes in our public school system years ago.

[00:48:36] Randall Roth: So losing the kids isn't as big a factor as losing those parents.

[00:48:39] Caller: I think that's true.

[00:48:41] Randall Roth: The phone lines are open to ask a question or make a comment. Just dial 955-8821, 955-8821. We have a caller, Marge from Kailua. Marge, you're on the air.

[00:48:51] Caller: Yes. I am so glad I had a chance to hear the last comment. I called because of performance standards. Uh I'm a teacher and a parent. I've had children in public school and still do. I believe in public school education. After coming from uh six months living in Australia, I would like to say that they also have a very heavy involvement into the private sector, and what you do have as a result of that is not the quality of education with the people that you need across section. So I am not at all for private education in the state of Hawaii getting any stronger. Now, how do you make public education better or make it more accountable? You don't minimize the standards at any point. You don't minimize the discipline at any point, and you start holding students accountable by not passing them.

[00:49:41] Karen Knudsen: Karen, you're nodding approval? Great. Thank you. I appreciate those comments.

[00:49:44] Caller: Uh the other point is I have thought about starting a movement called Public Education Private School education at public school prices. Don't know why, having lived in different places that we in Hawaii even tolerate um people not doing their homework. I mean, I have asked questions of different people, and it's real easy. When people are satisfied with public school, you'll find mostly they're satisfied in under sixth grade from my experience. But as it gets higher into higher levels, people seek harder work for their children, because they know they're going to have to compete on the mainland and in schools if they want to get them a better education, and be able to make a commitment to have a good work background. And work background comes from what they have to do in school. No children, no matter how interested, parents will say, well, my student isn't interested, [unintelligible — audio glitch] blah. But if they they'll get interested fast if they know they're not going to pass. But we're passing an awful lot of people in my estimation, who are not going to be able to perform at the end of the stick. 12th grade year. So, I don't know. I've seen Project Keaho. I am not at all impressed by the different changes that I see. SCBM can turn into a nightmare in some cases if a political group starts taking control of a school. I think there's many avenues here. We, I'm not shooting down everything, but some of the way that has been depicted, I can't understand why they don't just start right in the classroom with the teacher and the child and say, you have to do this or you don't pass. Coming from different backgrounds, people on the East Coast that parents smoke, spoke Italian, Russian and whatever, and they all worked minimum wage jobs. It has nothing to do. These people are lawyers and leaders of um, businesses today. I don't think it really matters what language you speak or whatever, if you have a leveling influence in the school, and the school takes charge, and gives people the advantage of a good, quality education. But we shortchange our children if we try to put blame everywhere and don't take charge in rains now. I hope it's not too late.

[00:51:53] Randall Roth: Marge, those are those are great comments and you sound like somebody who can can get some things done. I hope you um roll up your sleeves and I'd like to have your name because I'd like to write you a letter. Okay. You stay on the line and our producer will give that to you. We've got several uh callers waiting. Shell in Moiliili. I never can say that right. Shell, you're on the air.

[00:52:13] Caller: Moiliili, Eli.

[00:52:14] Randall Roth: Oh, thank you. I've been wondering.

[00:52:16] Caller: Um, a very interesting discussion. I I guess [unintelligible — audio glitch] one question is, uh Hawaii is not like uh uh say Kansas. Uh, I do know that uh we have a huge immigrant population here. Many, uh I read somewhere there were over 50 first languages spoken on Oahu. And I guess my question is, how do we do if you take into consideration all of these children from all these different backgrounds and different languages coming into the same system and [unintelligible — audio glitch] at some point, I mean, are we not doing a fairly good job of of at the at the at the end of the stick, someone said, uh graduating a lot of kids who go on to college. I mean, uh I listen, I mean, we can knock the system as much as we as we want, but in in with that fact taken into consideration, is the system not functioning fairly well?

[00:53:11] Caller: Shell, that's a that's a great observation. Uh, I once saw a statistic that something like 25% of the kids in the public schools lived in homes where English wasn't the primary language. Um, I happen to be from Kansas, and everybody is like me. We don't have that kind of diversity. John, is it possible that we're doing a a tremendous job here in Hawaii given certain challenges like that? Yeah, I think that the, you know, I think the caller's asking a right question here. I think the schools in this state face tremendous challenges. Uh, there are some states like Hawaii, like California that has this tremendous uh multilingual, bilingual problem in a in a sense, in trying to educate children where English is not the primary language in the home. And I think we've done a reasonably good job of that. Uh, I think the stats would bear us out. Uh, but that still doesn't deal with the overall issue of total school performance. Um other schools and in other states are doing it uh and I think some people might perceive they're doing it better than we are. But this is the problem of making an assessment of a system. It's very difficult because individual schools within our system are doing better than others. And so, when I look at schools, I look at schools, my kids went to, um because that's the school I'm more familiar with. And that school may be doing fine, but in fact the school down the street may not be, and this is one of our problems.

[00:54:31] Caller: Well, would would it be that that school down the street has a larger concentration of uh foreign language people? It might, but [unintelligible — audio glitch] don't necessarily see that as a problem, because I I mean, I I've seen schools with rather high percentages of students who are of immigrant parents or immigrants themselves, who seem to be very, you know, functioning very effectively and doing a very good job with the children. I think, again, it gets back to the staff and whether or not the teachers and the principal are committed to working with students and doing a good job with students instead of worrying about what's good for them.

[00:55:04] Randall Roth: Right. I know my wife teaches English as a second language in the public school system, and she said, often times the kids that come from outside the United States are are the better students.

[00:55:12] Karen Knudsen: Highly motivated.

[00:55:13] Randall Roth: We have another caller on the line. Oh, thank you, Shell, very much. We have another caller from downtown, Andrew. You're on the air.

[00:55:21] Caller: Andrew, are you still there? Yes, I'm still here. Oh, thank you. Thank you for waiting. You're on the air. Okay. First of all, I'd like to get some background out of the way. Uh I am the product of a public school system uh on Long Island, New York. And uh I have I am also a recruiter for a private college. And I therefore have to go to the very some of the high schools here in order to look for potential high school students. So I'd like to point out that there seems to be a lot of mythology going around about the difference between public and private uh education. Uh the idea that all private education is expensive or more expensive than public education is ridiculous. Uh the talk about the the upper middle class being separated out and and moved into Punahou, uh ignores the history of these islands. My wife's family, two out of three of the uh or two out of four of the children at least, went to private school, one to Damien and one to Maryknoll. And they were by no means upper middle class. They were blue-collar. And there are many private schools that provide education, a good quality of education to all levels, and they do it at a much cheaper cost than the public school system does. And what we look at is we we look at what, you know, the idea that if we if we close all the public schools, all these poor children are not going to have any schools to go to. And who's going to provide schooling for them? Well, the schooling will be provided by private providers, and the money that is being taxed out of people's pockets and removed from their paychecks, that prevents them from being able to afford something, will be used to pay for

[00:57:00] Randall Roth: cation. And for those instances where people are really too poor to afford, why wouldn't there be a scholarship system that would exist, just like there is for upper-level education?

[00:57:08] Karen Knudsen: Karen, what do you think of that? Um, I think there are some interesting concepts there, but I don't think we're at that point, or ever will be at that point to be able to close down the public schools as I heard right and just have private I don't think we're at that point.

[00:57:20] Randall Roth: And I'd like to react to the prior caller's uh statement about the difference in language here. Uh, back in '75 when all the boat people came over here from uh Vietnam, uh, the Vietnamese children that came over here adapted very rapidly to the language that was being spoken. I had very close friends who had children in the range of three to five years old, and within two years you couldn't tell the difference between those children and any other local children as far as the way they spoke the language here. So I think it's patently ridiculous to assume that just because we have a varied population here, uh, our schools have a much more difficult time of educating anybody. I think the real problem is the overcentralization, the control that prevents individuals from, uh, being treated as individuals, the fact that we have a system where seniority seems more important than the capability of the individual. And, uh, I think that that kind of attitude is what stultifies the education system and it's not specific here to Hawaii.

[00:58:31] Randall Roth: Andrea, I really appreciate your comments. I've got a bunch of people stacked up, so if you don't mind, I'm going to move on, but thank you very much. We have Jim from Kapiolani Boulevard. Jim, you're on the air.

[00:58:41] Caller: Yes, sir. I want to commend you for your program. You've touched on many important problems. I hope that you will influence some change.

[00:58:51] Randall Roth: Thank you. What

[00:58:52] Caller: There are many issues that I'm interested in, but today I want to bring up early childhood education. Uh, it's a general observation that children learn best early in life. Much verbal support is heard, but no significant move is seen. I want to see strong community, government, DOE, BOE move to give massive support to early childhood education. Am I off base?

[00:59:23] Randall Roth: Well, let's ask our Board of Education member. Karen, what do you think?

[00:59:27] Karen Knudsen: Well, right now the board's mandate, or the department's mandate, is only kindergarten through 12. Um, early childhood education is something that would take a lot of funding from the legislature. It's something, of course, I I would support. I think that would be that's really important, but that's out of out of our purview right now.

[00:59:41] Randall Roth: In fact, I think you've commented in the past, we need to go down to the legislature and not leave until they

[00:59:46] Karen Knudsen: That's a bring your sleeping bag.

[00:59:49] Randall Roth: We've got another caller. Thank you very much, Jim. We have another caller, Clint, from Waikiki. Clint, you're on the air.

[00:59:54] Caller: Fine. Thank you. Uh I want to address the whole issue of pre-service and in-service teacher training. Um, the whole issue of uh uh public education today is no different from what we're the problem that we're having in industry and that the whole issue of uh uh preparing uh teachers to really understand uh how we educate children in terms of the kind of world we're moving into. I'd like to address the question to Dean Dolly and to Karen in terms of uh what what uh is really being done in terms of uh in-service pre-service training and to what extent in terms of the uh amount of money that's spent for for public education uh is uh spent on teacher in-service.

[01:01:10] Randall Roth: Clint, your question is an excellent one and I have to apologize by saying there's only about 30 seconds left for an answer. So, John, can you do your best?

[01:01:18] John Dolly: Yeah, the the uh pre-service programs we're making them more field-based. We're trying to put them into schools and in some cases even schools with problems. So teachers learn how to address those issues that that are critical in the DOE. The in-service is a bigger problem because we have people scattered throughout the state, and we're one of the states that really doesn't mandate that teachers come back and demonstrate certain skills over periods of time. And I think that's something we're going to have to do to improve the system.

[01:01:23] Randall Roth: College of Education dean John Dolly. This program was produced by Jill Senner with technical assistance from Mark Wagner and Al Holson. We hope that you've enjoyed this one-hour special, and that you'll tune in for our regular program each Saturday morning at nine on this station, or Sunday morning at eight on KHPR 88.1 and KKUA 90.7. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha. Thank you, Clint. Thank you, John. My guests for this special one-hour version of the Price of Paradise radio show have been Board of Education member Karen Knutson and UH College of Education Dean John Dally. This program was produced by Jill Senner with technical assistance from Mark Wagner and Al Holson. We hope that you've enjoyed this one-hour special and that you'll tune in for our regular program each Saturday morning at 9:00 on this station, or Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 and KKUA 90.7. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.