The Military in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-07-03
Guests: Paul Lister (President, Chamber of Commerce of Hawaii; Major General (ret.)); Ron Hays (Admiral (ret.); former Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Command)
Duration: 1:00:36

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: inside.

[0:00:01] Ron Hays: Well, you know, you can't predict with any degree of certainty what's going to happen. But there is a very significant drawdown occurring in the US military at the present time. I think that's appropriate in view of the changed world situation. But, the US interest in the Pacific uh, require a military presence. Uh, it's it's to protect our vital interest out in this area. There is no better uh, geographic location than Hawaii. Uh, to position uh, military forces that will attend to our national interest out in this, in this region.

[0:00:43] Randall Roth: Mhm. Now, there are a lot of people, I think, who who see some negative impacts that the military has here in Hawaii. And yet as Paul has mentioned, there certainly are some some positive economic impacts. Uh, as as a spokesman for the military, or I shouldn't say that, you used to be a spokesman for the military. As someone who comes from a military background, uh, how does the military look at their situation in Hawaii? Uh, do they feel as though they're appreciated by the people of Hawaii, that that the people understand the benefits as well as any possible drawbacks?

[0:01:17] Ron Hays: Oh, I think Hawaii receives mixed reviews in that regard. Most military people, in my experience, uh, appreciate uh, living in Hawaii, working in Hawaii, and they appreciate the relationship that exists between the civilian community and the military community. It's a good relationship. But there are exceptions. People that have difficulty finding a place to live, the cost of living here, those kinds of negatives, uh, bear on many military people who have to struggle here, uh, in order to get by. But, on balance, the relationship uh, between the uh, military community and the civilian community is good, and the military looks on duty in Hawaii with a very positive light.

[0:02:06] Randall Roth: Paul, what do you think?

[0:02:08] Paul Lister: We hear from military people who are stationed here, two principal areas of difficulty in living in the state of Hawaii. One of those is, as Ron has already said, is the cost of living, and particularly the cost of housing. That really uh, creates a burden particularly on some of the lower-rank military folks that are stationed here. Uh, the second thing is our public education system. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with our public education system, military families move all over the country, and of course, they compare education systems wherever they go. And frankly, ours doesn't rate very highly. Although that is improving, some some things have been done by the DOE to really try

[0:02:08] Paul Lister: to improve that and, and particularly to improve the relationship between military families and the school system, but we still have a long way to go with that one.

[0:02:56] Randall Roth: So folks in the military uh, are not particularly happy to be stationed in Hawaii because of uh, schools that aren't as good as they should be or because of a high cost of living?

[0:03:06] Paul Lister: I wouldn't say that they're particularly unhappy. Though I think that those are the two factors that create whatever level of unhappiness is there. Those are offset by other things. Certainly, living in Hawaii is uh, is not the worst place in the world uh, to be stationed, and and frankly, an assignment in Hawaii is still seen by many military people as being a real plum. So it's it they they're offsetting things to those, but those are the the two factors I think that are the largest negatives.

[0:03:33] Randall Roth: Ron?

[0:03:34] Ron Hays: Uh, I agree with Paul. It's unfortunate that many good people who would like a tour of duty in Hawaii, decline coming here, because of the two points that Paul has made, the schools and the cost of living. The military knows about uh, Hawaii, the fact that it is a great place to live, but it also knows about its negatives, and that prevents many people from seeking a tour of duty here in Hawaii. Sometime to the detriment of the military uh, capabilities.

[0:04:07] Randall Roth: In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm here with former commander in chief of Pacific Forces, also known as CINCPAC, Admiral Ronald J. Hayes, and Chamber of Commerce of Hawaii President Paul R. Lichter, who is a major general in the US Army Reserve. Your calls are welcome, the number is 955-8821. Well, could you talk just a little bit about uh, the so-called post-Cold War era? Uh, the end of the Evil Empire. Uh, just how much can we as a country relax so far as our defense is concerned, Ron?

[0:04:42] Ron Hays: Well, I would say that we could not relax to the degree that was anticipated when the uh, the Evil Empire uh, dissolved. Is that a an accurate term, by the way? It was used very effectively by uh, by uh, our past president, but uh, I I think while um, there's a lot of uncertainty in in today's world, and that is more frustrating for us, because in the old days we knew exactly what our uh, what the opposition was, uh, what to expect from them. And today we don't enjoy that certainty. We have to deal with a great amount of uncertainty, and when you're in an environment of uncertainty, you had better maintain proper military forces

[0:04:42] Ron Hays: uh, to address the unknown.

[0:05:38] Randall Roth: Mhm. So you think that uh, that the military isn't necessarily going to be scaled back dramatically, even though there isn't one specific enemy out there to be worried about?

[0:05:49] Ron Hays: Well, I think the military is being scaled back presently, in a rather dramatic, excuse me, dramatic fashion. Cuts are being made. Cuts should be made uh, in order to preserve taxpayer dollars. But uh, you have to phase down uh, the military forces uh, very cautiously, very deliberately. And you know, we have been in this position a number of times in our history, in the last 200 years, and we have always done a very poor job in phasing down the military when it was appropriate to do so. We encountered unbalances that affected adversely our capabilities, and we must be cautious not to do that on this occasion.

[0:06:39] Randall Roth: Paul, what do you think about that?

[0:06:40] Paul Lister: Well I think there's another factor, particularly in the Pacific that weighs into this too that we we can't overlook. And that is that we have a number of very friendly nations out here in the Pacific today, that really view a United States military presence in the region as a stabilizing factor and welcome our presence uh, in in in the Pacific. Uh, Japan certainly feels that way about us, South Korea feels that way about us, uh, Australia feels that way about us, uh, the Philippines feel that way about us. Uh, I think that uh, this is this entire Pacific region is has a lot of potential flash points, that has potential uh, confrontations that are based

[0:06:40] Paul Lister: on on ethnic lines, on religious lines, on economic lines, uh, and the very factor that the United States has long been a major presence out here is is welcomed by those nations that don't want to see those things escalate into some sort of a military conflict. And uh, I think our presence out here is a real peacekeeping role as well as a, as a war fighting role.

[0:07:40] Randall Roth: We have a caller, uh, Mr. Leong from Honolulu. You're on the air.

[0:07:44] Caller (Mr. Leong): Thank you very much, sir.

[0:07:46] Randall Roth: Good morning.

[0:07:47] Caller (Mr. Leong): Good morning. My question is, what activities or programs are being promoted to bring the military and the civilian population closer together?

[0:08:01] Randall Roth: Good question, Paul.

[0:08:04] Paul Lister: Well, this sounds like a question aimed almost directly at the Chamber of Commerce and it's one of the things that we have worked on very hard. We have within the Chamber an organization called the Military Affairs Council. Uh, Admiral Hayes sits on the Military Affairs Council. Uh, and that group has worked now for some seven years to do just exactly what Mr. Leong asked, in order to bring the civilian community and the military community closer together and to show the the support of the civilian community for the military community. The most public set of events that occurs around that is Hawaii Military Week, which occurs every year the uh, third week in May and as

[0:08:04] Paul Lister: can uh, happens to occur at the same time as Armed Forces Day. Um, and we have an entire series of events uh, that really uh, showcases and highlights the military in Hawaii. The other thing that we do uh, with that is we we have a very active uh, education committee that works as I mentioned earlier, there's a a perceived problem uh, between the military community and our education system. We have an education committee that works very hard at trying to solve some of those those uh, problems that exist out there. In addition to that, the Military Affairs Council does a number of other things.

[0:09:22] Randall Roth: Uh, Ron, anything to add to that?

[0:09:25] Ron Hays: I would like to underscore the point that Paul made about the Military Affairs Council. The Chamber's Military Affairs Council is somewhat unique. And in my experience, it contributes um, a great deal to smooth relations between the military and the community. It's a very effective organization that meets frequently, deals with substantive problems, and produces good results. I'm very high on the Military Affairs Council, that concept and the results that it produces.

[0:10:01] Randall Roth: Mr. Leong, from your question, does does that suggest that you believe there there is a problem with this in this area?

[0:10:07] Caller (Mr. Leong): No, I think that's a a a very effective means of uh, achieving that goal between the military and the civilian population. I might just add another uh, sort of a question to it is, sometimes there are, you know, specific problems that arise. And in that case, I guess, you may need to develop, you know, some kind of a special uh, thrust, you know, to to try to ease tensions between the military and the civilian populations.

[0:10:38] Randall Roth: On a specific issue?

[0:10:40] Caller (Mr. Leong): Yes.

[0:10:40] Randall Roth: We'll see what Paul Lichter says about that.

[0:10:43] Paul Lister: We also have another organization that is not widely known to the public uh, that is the that is based in the Chamber of Commerce that we coordinate, something called the Oahu Council. Uh, the Oahu Council consists of the governor uh, of the state of Hawaii, the mayor of the city and county of Honolulu, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, uh, each of the principal uh, the major commanders from each of the services here, CINCPAC, uh, the president and the chairman of the Chamber of Commerce of Hawaii and the and the chairman of the Military Affairs Council. This group gets together twice a year to do just exactly what Mr. Leong is talking about. It's

[0:10:43] Paul Lister: an off the record uh, very quiet sort of thing, but it's a way in which you can always bring up any really touchy issue and figure out how you're going to deal with a very effective group.

[0:11:29] Randall Roth: Thank you for your call, Mr. Leong.

[0:11:31] Caller (Mr. Leong): Oh, thank you, gentlemen.

[0:11:33] Randall Roth: Phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are invited to call collect. Again, the line is 955-8821. Well, just a little bit ago before Mr. Leong called, Paul was naming some of our our allies, the friendly folks out there supporting the military here in Hawaii. What about some of our elected officials in Washington? Do they fit into that category? Uh, I'm thinking now, in particular of Representative uh, Neil Abercrombie and he's said a few things that I know some of the folks with the military have reacted to in a in a negative sort of way. Um, Ron, what do people in the military think about the the elected uh, folks back in Congress

[0:11:33] Randall Roth: here from Hawaii? Are they supporters of the military? Are they not supporters? What are your thoughts?

[0:12:05] Ron Hays: That sounds like a question that ought to be directed to the Chamber of Commerce. I think uh, that you can uh, conclude that the Hawaii delegation back in Washington is very supportive of the military. Now we have our differences, uh, we, the military, uh, frequently is on the opposite end of the argument so far as uh, the issue is concerned. But there's nothing wrong with that. Fundamentally, the military in Hawaii gets good, solid support from its uh, congressional delegation in uh, in Washington. And Senator uh, uh, Inouye uh, has done so much for the military forces here in uh, in in Hawaii that he ought to be recognized for that.

[0:13:10] Randall Roth: Mhm. Paul, what do you think?

[0:13:12] Paul Lister: I would absolutely agree with Ron on that and uh, Senator Inouye is uh, well known in both Washington and in Hawaii for his support of the military and the military presence here. He's been an extremely effective advocate for the military in Hawaii. Uh, your original question though had to do with Representative Abercrombie and I think that uh, many of the headlines that he has received have been in in a context that sometimes has been has been perceived as being anti-military. But you know, he's he sits in a very important position as far as Hawaii and the military's concerned because he is on the House Armed Services Committee. And in that role, he has also been

[0:13:12] Paul Lister: very effective, particularly at getting money to bring housing, uh, military housing into the state of Hawaii. So I I would hate for our listeners to think that uh, that Neil Abercrombie is always perceived as an an enemy of the military in the state, because he certainly has not always behaved that way.

[0:14:06] Randall Roth: Mhm. A lot of those headlines had to do with his position on on Bellows. And I know this is simplistic but basically he has suggested that it's time for the military to to give that land back. Um, what would the possible impact of that be, Ron?

[0:14:21] Ron Hays: Well, this is one of those areas that I referred to earlier about disagreements. Uh, there is a very serious disagreement between Representative Abercrombie and the military on the uh, future of Bellows. The military takes the position that uh, Bellows is necessary for its uh, training uh, here in in Hawaii and training areas and opportunities are absolutely vital to the military and they must have those in areas that are convenient to the base. So we have a very serious uh, problem here and I would, I would make the point that uh, if the military is unable to train and to exercise and to acquire [unintelligible — audio glitch] land uh, that is necessary to realize that,

[0:14:21] Ron Hays: then in the long run, the future of the military in a given area is in jeopardy. So I think we must be very careful about uh, decisions that affect the ability of the military here in Hawaii to do its job through uh, training and evolutions.

[0:15:38] Randall Roth: So what I hear you saying is that if Bellow goes, it's if Bellows goes, that it's conceivable that that's the first card and that it's going to push some others over and uh, potentially it could have a big, big impact on the military's presence in Hawaii?

[0:15:54] Ron Hays: Well, yes, I think it could. Uh, you you uh, you could uh, even cite the domino theory here, uh, continually chipping away at the uh, at the areas where the military uh, trains is a uh, is something you got to be very careful about.

[0:16:16] Randall Roth: I was mixing my metaphors there, I guess, with my cards falling on one another. Uh, Paul, I'm sure you're aware of the fact there's some people in the community who feel that that's uh, you know, an an empty uh, subtle threat, that that really uh, the military could do just fine without that particular uh, site. Wha- what do you think?

[0:16:36] Paul Lister: Well, I that particular site, we talk about that site as if it is one one thing that has to go one way or the other. I'm very hopeful that what will finally come out of the Bellows issue is some sort of a a negotiated agreement where uh, everybody who has an interest in it uh, comes out with with some component of that. Certainly, it is a very vital place for the Marines to train amphibious operations, uh, and I think that we need to retain at least a portion of Bellows for that kind of training for the Marine Corps. Uh, but that's not to say that all of Bellows has to remain in military hands and

[0:16:36] Paul Lister: and hopefully, what may come out of this is is some uh, compromise situation in which a portion of that land may be be given back. But before people begin to deal with individual plots of land like that, I think what is needed, and what is in fact going on right now, is a study that really takes a careful look at what the military's land needs are and where where those lands are are most appropriate to military use. Such a study is now going on uh, with the state of Hawaii and with CINCPAC, the current CINCPAC, Admiral Larson, it was initiated out of uh, Senator Inouye's office and my understanding is that sometime before the end

[0:16:36] Paul Lister: of this year, we're going to see the report of that land use study. And hopefully that'll that'll point us in the right direction on land use in Hawaii for the military.

[0:17:58] Randall Roth: Great. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, and I'm here with Ron Hayes and Paul Lichter talking about the military in Hawaii. Ron is a retired admiral, and Paul is a major general in the Army Reserve. They're available to answer your questions and respond to your opinions. Phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. We have a caller from Pearl City. Chris. Chris, you're on the air.

[0:18:22] Caller (Chris): Uh, hi, Dr. Roth. Good morning.

[0:18:23] Randall Roth: Good morning.

[0:18:24] Caller (Chris): I I'm a recent UH graduate and I heard you speak one time and I think you have a lot of good ideas.

[0:18:29] Randall Roth: Oh, thank you.

[0:18:30] Caller (Chris): Um, my question uh, focuses more on the global aspect but it has to do with Hawaii. Uh, know my, well, uh, you know how Hawaii has uh, one of four light infantry division and uh, well Hawaii, like you guys said, uh, it seems to be the pivotal point, a pivotal point. It seems to be in the middle of everything. And uh, with the and with the things situation in Korea right now, there seems to be a possibility of a second Cold War Um, well, my question is, is there any effort by Sync Pack to help Washington recognize this, and if so, are the cutbacks affecting the rest of the nation relatively less than that of

[0:18:30] Caller (Chris): Hawaii?

[0:19:12] Paul Lister: Well, we have former Sync Pak, Sync Pank, Sync Pack. You can tell I'm not a military person. Uh Ron Hayes, what do you think of Chris's question?

[0:19:23] Ron Hays: I think the statistics will show that the cutbacks that have occurred here in the Pacific region is far less than those that have occurred in other areas of the world. And the reason for that is that there are more uh uncertainties here that the nation has to deal with and it's a reflection also of the importance the nation attaches to the Pacific region. So I think in the future, that situation will not change appreciably and that uh places like uh North Korea, which is indeed of great concern right now, will uh will be in the fore and require that the nation maintain credible military forces out here in order to cope with situations like that.

[0:20:13] Paul Lister: Chris, are you still there?

[0:20:16] Caller (Barry): Okay, we've got another caller, Barry from Kaimuki. Barry, you're on the air. Hi, good morning gentlemen.

[0:20:22] Paul Lister: Good morning.

[0:20:23] Caller (Barry): Um I just, I kind of have a question about what I've been witnessing since I've been in Hawaii as a little bit of conflict between the diverse cultures of the islands and the military presence here. And in particular, I guess I could cite just a few things, you know, there's these different cultures, different ethnicities that we have here. A lot of the folks from the military are um from more homogeneous areas, and, you know, on the mainland and stuff. But in particular, um has been a lot of like homophobia and racism within the military, and in particular I would cite like the John Knight murder trial that we just had. Where a number of military

[0:20:23] Caller (Barry): folks who were stationed here in the island took the stand and said some very hateful and homophobic things, and it seems like they need a lot of education in that area. We also have, I think that was the Baker case that was recently heard where a um military person was um charged with murdering a prostitute in Waikiki. And I've just, being in Waikiki, there is a lot of conflict between local folks, you know, Hawaiian folks, and um the military presence, and I'm just wondering is there education going on to help the military understand that this is different community, that we are more accepting and more open.

[0:21:41] Paul Lister: Let's ask Paul Lister. Well, and let me answer the last question first and that is yes there is education going on, there are active programs going on in the services right now to to try to make everybody that is stationed in Hawaii uh considerably more aware of the history of the islands and the cultures that exist here in the islands. Uh and I appreciate uh uh Barry's comment but I would also having and Admiral Hayes I'm sure would probably bear this out having been stationed in a number of places, I think that you find far less uh racial tension in the state of Hawaii than you find almost anywhere else in the United States or

[0:21:41] Paul Lister: anywhere else in the world for that matter. And yes there is some. Uh it's an unfortunate factor of human nature, but there is far far less of it here than there is almost anywhere else. It's one of the really attractive things about Hawaii. I know uh the state of Hawaii has been uh struggling as a community with uh the same-sex marriage issue and the military has been trying to figure out exactly uh how to deal with with gays in the military. Ron uh you've been out for a few years now and uh I'm wondering what's what's your perspective on all of this?

[0:23:00] Ron Hays: I would like to uh identify myself with Paul's comments. I think he's absolutely right. You see less uh strife, turmoil uh here in Hawaii than you do most any place else that I have lived and worked. And I think that is one of the great pluses of uh life and duty in Hawaii for the military.

[0:23:27] Paul Lister: So when when Barry says we have problems here, you're saying there are problems everywhere and if you have the perspective you would say that that we seem to be doing at least as well here in Hawaii with those challenges as other people in other places.

[0:23:41] Ron Hays: I think better.

[0:23:42] Caller (Barry): Yeah, could I just ask is there any specifically thing being done to you know, educate people about homophobia because I was there at the night trial and I watched John Knight say that you know, he went back to the barracks and said I kill I got a fagot to everybody and everybody was excited about it. And you know, three or four other military folks testified that yeah, you know, we just regularly do that. Is there anything like any reducing prejudice workshops going on? Is there anything specific because there is a problem and it's not being addressed?

[0:24:11] Paul Lister: Good question Paul, anything specific? I don't know of anything that is specific to homophobia. Uh as I said, there are things that are more racially oriented. Uh I think uh Barry's comment is probably a a valid one. Uh there is certainly a high level of homophobia in the military. Uh there's no question about that. I think that there's that not and been a tradition of having gays in the military. Military is adjusting uh to that entire situation though. And they're and there's some conflicts that are associated with it. I I'm I'm not at all convinced that the level of homophobia that's in the military, though is is not simply representative of of the level that

[0:24:11] Paul Lister: exists in the society as a whole. Thank you, Barry for your questions.

[0:24:58] Caller (Barry): You're welcome. Thank you. Uh this is the Price of Paradise Radio show and today's topic is the military's impact on Hawaii. We're live and our phone lines are open. Just call 955-8821. Well, we have a number of people on the line. Uh Phillis from Honolulu, you're on the air.

[0:25:15] Caller (Phillis): Okay. Um my question is for Mr. Lister and he is as I understand with the Chamber of Commerce, which is a private organization and as it its name suggests is oriented to business interests. So I'm wondering how much public money does the Chamber of Commerce receive from the state annually.

[0:25:38] Paul Lister: Paul? At the present time, we get about $100,000 a year in contracts uh through Dbed. These are basically economic development contracts. Uh that is less than 5% of the total budget of the chamber.

[0:25:54] Caller (Phillis): Yeah, do you get any for um does the military affairs committee get any military affairs committee of the Chamber of Commerce get any?

[0:26:05] Paul Lister: Yes, we do have a contract with Dbed that uh puts some money into the chamber supporting the efforts in military affairs.

[0:26:11] Caller (Phillis): How much?

[0:26:12] Paul Lister: Uh that contract this year is, and I'm trying to do this off the top of my head without any papers in front of me, but I believe uh the total amount of the contract this year was $72,000.

[0:26:27] Caller (Phillis): What is this, I don't know exactly what does this really entail?

[0:26:31] Paul Lister: Well, basically, it supports the activities of the Military Affairs Council in in supporting and trying to continue the economic presence of the military in the state of Hawaii. Uh it's it's a whole range of activities that the military affairs council performs. Uh probably the best example that I could give you was the announcement that was made this week that we're going to get a deface, uh department of defense finance and accounting system regional center located here in Hawaii, which will put about 500 new civilian jobs into the economy.

[0:27:07] Caller (Phillis): Thank you, Phillis.

[0:27:08] Caller (Barry): You're welcome. Uh we've got a couple more people on the line and I want to go to them first but uh don't let me forget Paul. I want to hear a little bit more about that recent development. Uh we have Ray from Waikiki on the line. Ray?

[0:27:21] Caller (Ray): Hello, good morning.

[0:27:22] Caller (Barry): Good morning.

[0:27:23] Caller (Ray): Thanks for taking my call. You bet. Um I have actually have two points I want to talk about. Uh one, um I wanted to talk about like [unintelligible — audio glitch] military and the social issues as far as like the gay in the military thing and the same-sex marriages. I was wondering, why is it that the military officials or the politicians or or the powers that be will allow the military to sort of like get involved with social experiments as far as the community and the society is concerned because to me, and and from what I've always been led to believe, the military is a is a a force and is is designed to protect

[0:27:23] Caller (Ray): the uh the citizens of this country and they shouldn't be compromised in any way I think. And I just, I've always wondered why was that you know, put up with at all and I was wondering if if if either of your uh two guests could comment on that for me.

[0:28:11] Caller (Barry): Is part of your question that uh the military seem to be functioning well before uh the gays in the military issue took center stage?

[0:28:19] Caller (Ray): Uh exactly, before the whole issue took because for one thing, I mean, I'm sure there were gays in the the military long before the issue ever came up and it's you know, from the dawning of time or whatever. But I just, you know, it baffles me as to why why it's ever even put up with. I mean, it should be just like, you know, I always wondered if if if you gentleman can comment on that for me.

[0:28:37] Caller (Barry): Let's ask Ron Hayes.

[0:28:40] Ron Hays: Well, the military in many ways is a reflection of our society and as standards and mores change in our society, you have to expect it to impact upon our military. Now, I would disagree with uh the suggestion that social experiments are widespread in the military. Uh that is uh just not the case. We do not engage in social experiments and resist them mightily. And many of the uh critical uh editorials that you see in the newspapers around the nation now uh are a result of the military's resistance to what might be classified as social experiments.

[0:29:33] Caller (Barry): Ray, thank you very much for your call. Today's topic is the military and its impact on the state of Hawaii. With me in the studio are Ron Hayes, a retired Navy Admiral who has held a host of key positions and received numerous awards. Currently, he is a technology consultant. With him is Paul Lister, a Major General in the Army Reserve, who also is president of the Chamber of Commerce of Hawaii. Paul previously commanded the famous 100th Battalion, 442nd Infantry. We have some callers on the line. Larry from Waikiki, you're on the air.

[0:30:04] Caller (Larry): Hello. Uh I would just like to take a comment to the two military officers there that I'm not sure that they're not in Waka key when we get hit by an influx of a bunch of Navy ships arriving in and you get thousands and thousands here in Waka key, that to me, uh as a 10-year veteran, are practically disgraceful. They seem to take over the entire part of Waka key with their alcohol, their profanity. They're assuming that they can have any little girl they want, how frightening they can be with Japanese girls especially, and I think it's just real bad that we as people who live here have to see this time and time again.

[0:30:44] Caller (Barry): Well, Ron Hayes, is uh is that because these young fellows are in the military, or uh uh what what's your response to what Larry's comment?

[0:31:06] Ron Hays: And the are in uniform.

[0:31:22] Paul Lister: Well they aren't in uniform. That's the basic. If they were in uniform they wouldn't be acting this way, they got earrings on their hair and bands on their head and bottles of liquor in their hand. And when I did my 10 years in the Navy, we were basically in uniforms and we were young gentlemen at 17.

[0:31:37] Ron Hays: Well, the point that I was going to make is that uh young men will be young men. And if they're not in uniform uh who knows their background, who knows whether or not they're in the military. Now, you're making the uh assumption and I think probably quite correctly that uh they are in the military. But that's young men who have uh been at sea for a prolonged period of time, uh coming in and uh enjoying the uh the the Wakiiki and that lifestyle.

[0:32:11] Paul Lister: Paul Lister? I I would like to respond to that because uh uh as Admiral Hayes, I have been in the military now uh for well over 30 years and I have seen the quality of the enlisted soldier, sailor, marine, and airman improve dramatically over the last 10 years. We have a quality uh soldier, sailor, service person out there today uh that is vastly superior to the soldiers that I served with as a as a young officer in the in the early 60s and into the 70s.

[0:32:48] Caller (Barry): How do you measure that? How how do you quantify?

[0:32:51] Paul Lister: You look at it in number of ways. You look at educational level, you look at test scores coming into the military, you look at uh at the amount of difficulty that you have disciplinary difficulty that you have with them. And all of those factors show that the quality of our of our service people today are are is improved dramatically over the last few years.

[0:33:10] Caller (Barry): Mhm. There is though this perception in the community and I think the the stereotype is the quote drunken sailor uh in Waikiki. Um is the military doing something at least to address that perception if it's not any more of a reality than than what the two of you seem to be suggesting?

[0:33:29] Paul Lister: Well, certainly they do something to address the perception and it's and they do more than simply to try to address the perception. They really try to to uh uh change and affect the the behavior and they talk to our soldiers and sailors constantly about their behavior [unintelligible — audio glitch] make them more aware of it. But you know, one of the things that we have seen uh is that [unintelligible — audio glitch] very nature of our junior enlisted people in the service today has changed remarkably. Uh they used to be predominantly single, today they are predominantly married. Uh many of them have their families with them uh on assignment and uh you you just don't

[0:33:29] Paul Lister: see the kinds of things that you used to see in the military.

[0:34:12] Caller (Barry): Larry, any other question?

[0:34:14] Caller (Larry): Well, I I make one comment. Well I wish the Admiral and the General come and sit in Waikiki when the next influx of 25,000 sailors come into Waikiki. Thank you.

[0:34:23] Caller (Barry): Thank you. We have several people on the line. We have uh Leela from Aiea. Leela, you're on the air.

[0:34:29] Caller (Leela): Hi. Um I'm curious of the 500 jobs um that uh the compilation of the administration of the military matters, you know, they're putting together the various groups throughout the nation. Right. Of those 500 jobs, how many will be filled locally and how how many will be transfers?

[0:34:50] Paul Lister: Great question, Paul Lister. Uh the total number of jobs that is estimated to uh be associated with that deface program is somewhere between 800 and 900 and about.

[0:38:00] Ron Hays: 300 of those will be transfers, the others will be 500 brand new jobs. Uh they will be created locally and uh will be filled locally.

[0:38:09] Caller (Leila): Okay, the 300 transfers, are those uh higher echelon type jobs and the other ones like clerks?

[0:38:17] Ron Hays: No, I think what you're going to see with that is that the both the transfers and the new jobs are going to be spread across the entire spectrum.

[0:38:24] Caller (Leila): Mm, okay. Now, I have another question. Um the military controls 26% of the land on Oahu.

[0:38:33] Paul Lister: Oh, Paul Lister is shaking his head. No, let let's have him respond to that and then Leila, I want you to finish your your question. Go ahead, Paul.

[0:38:38] Ron Hays: Yeah, military actually controls about 5% of the land totally in the state of Hawaii.

[0:38:43] Caller (Leila): No, but on Oahu, it's 26%.

[0:38:46] Ron Hays: I I don't know where you're getting your figures, but that's absolutely not true. Leila, do you know where that figure comes from?

[0:38:52] Caller (Leila): Um, it comes out of the stats, um and it's a figure that people who have studied the military here in Hawaii have used time and again, even in the state uh state people have spoken, they've used that.

[0:39:05] Randall Roth: Let's let's just note that that Ron and Paul are in in disagreement with that, but go ahead with your question.

[0:39:10] Caller (Leila): Okay, the question is this. I realized, and I think people in Hawaii realize, rest and recreation is important R&R here. But on Oahu, now, we're discounting not even um all the golf courses that you have in contact with the military bases, plus some of the beaches that the local people don't realize are beautiful that are connected with military bases. But of the R&R places that we know about, you have, you know, Fort DeRussy, and the hotel there. Um, you have Waini, and you have Bellows. Um do you believe that uh Bellows, for example, is strategically important? Or is the military really keeping it for its recreational uh reasons?

[0:40:02] Randall Roth: Uh Leila, we talked about Bellows earlier but but let me ask Paul and Ron to respond to your your general suggestion that maybe the military has has too much of the the prime beach property and is using it for recreation as opposed to strategic purposes. Paul, why don't you go first?

[0:40:19] Paul Lister: Well, first of all, I would uh answer the question about Bellows' strategic importance. Uh it's strategic importance is there because of its importance as a training site for the Marines of Kaneohe who use it as an amphibious landing uh of training site during the week. The other point that I would make is that with the exception of I think the only exception that I can think of is some of the beaches that are on actually on the base at Kaneohe uh that are not necessarily available directly to the public. Uh those other beaches are open to the public. The Bellows beach is open to the public on weekends. Uh, the public can use it. Uh,

[0:40:19] Paul Lister: the Fort DeRussy beach is open to the public, uh all the time. It's always open down there. Uh, and so,

[0:41:10] Caller (Leila): Now, there I'm talking about the beach at Hickham. There's one there. There's one uh down at Barber's Point that the military is trying to keep.

[0:41:20] Randall Roth: Let's ask Let's ask Ron Hayes about that.

[0:41:24] Ron Hays: I'm not uh aware of the arrangement. It was my view that most of the military beaches are opened whenever they can be for uh general use by the uh public. I think that is the um that that's the way it's being managed at the present time.

[0:42:15] Randall Roth: Well, thank you thank you for your questions, Leila.

[0:42:37] Caller (Leila): You're welcome.

[0:42:44] Randall Roth: Uh, I'm Randy Roth and I'm here with Ron Hayes and Paul Lister talking about the military in Hawaii. Uh, all of you out there, do you think life in Hawaii is made better or worse by the military's presence? Here's your chance to talk about it with two knowledgeable and straight-talking fellows. Your calls are welcome. Phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. We have a caller from Honolulu. Bob, you're on the air.

[0:42:52] Caller (Bob): Oh yeah, I have a couple questions and comments. First of all, I'd like to take issue with your comment about the racism here. I think that uh Hawaii has a high degree of institutional racism. Um, I know personally in the Department of Education, the institutional racism against the against Howlees and Howlee teachers. Um, and on the part of the whole state government, you find uh disproportionate representation of uh Japanese Americans and under representation of other minorities uh, Howlees and others.

[0:43:41] Randall Roth: Bob, let me throw throw that that comment to to Ron Hayes get his reaction then come back for for the rest of of your points. Uh Ron, is there a sense by people in the military that uh that Howlees who are in the majority in just about every other place where they might be stationed, aren't in the majority here? Is there a sense that perhaps there's some discrimination against them?

[0:44:24] Ron Hays: In my experience, no. Uh there there isn't that perception. Uh, I know um exactly what the uh Bob is is talking about so far as uh as the Howley problem is concerned. You know, I was uh on duty here for three years and I heard vague reference to being a Howley made, but it uh wasn't within my frame of reference, really. But now that I'm a citizen of Hawaii, I uh I have a greater appreciation for the use of the word uh Howley. But I think it goes back to the point uh that was made earlier. The inner relational uh relations uh relationships here in Hawaii are better than you will find any place else

[0:44:24] Ron Hays: in the world, in my experience.

[0:45:44] Randall Roth: Bob, go ahead with your your comment.

[0:45:46] Caller (Bob): Okay, yeah, I'm getting back to the uh military. I look upon um the military presence in Hawaii as the first step away from the American Republic. And under the Constitution, we're guaranteed a Republican form of government. This has never gone to be adjudicated in the courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court. But as I understand it, a Republic does not have troops stationed beyond its own borders. In 1893 when the Queen was overthrown by the coup d'etat, that was the first step America took towards becoming a worldwide empire. Now we're 100 years into the empire phase of American history, and uh I personally believe that I wish we had a commander-in-chief who looked

[0:45:46] Caller (Bob): at it like this, who would withdraw all the troops from all the foreign bases and keep them only stationed on American soil. Now in that regard, Hawaii is now part of uh American soil. So, therefore, I have no problem with American forces being based here uh in Hawaii. But um I would like to see other priorities. I think the national security is mainly threatened by the invasion of illegal immigrants coming into the country and the national security is threatened by the injustices that haven't been resolved to the uh as far as the uh Native American Indians. And seeing as this is July 4th, I have a very short little poem just take about uh 35

[0:45:46] Caller (Bob): seconds, I wrote it last Saturday. It's called The Ship of State.

[0:46:18] Randall Roth: You've got 35 seconds, Bob.

[0:46:21] Caller (Bob): Okay. I am the candle in the night, I am keeping America alive. We can do it if we have faith and courage to try. Take our heads out of the sand and look up to the sky. America has a rendezvous with destiny and there's a part in it for you and for me, as we look to the future and improve on the past, building the quality, you know that will last. Come on America, it's never too late, to protect the house, you take care of the gate, to protect the land, the fence forces are at home. No more foreign bases, no more posturing like Rome. This is the American Republic built on Indian's bones, the

[0:46:21] Caller (Bob): nation that shall live is the nation that atones and finds a way to get land back to the first people of the land and once upon this journey, the great spirit himself will lend a hand to help us create a canal that will halt the invasion band. And then the ship of state, my friends, with its grand white, red and blue will forever sail the seas and reflect the heavens view.

[0:47:35] Randall Roth: Bob, that was longer than 35 seconds, but that was better than I thought it was going to be.

[0:47:47] Caller (Bob): Well, thank you very much and I wish you all a happy 4th of July, and I hope America becomes a constitutional republic and our troops home.

[0:47:55] Randall Roth: All right. Thanks a lot, Bob. We have another caller. We have Terry from Kaimuki. Terry, you're on the air.

[0:48:14] Caller (Terry): Yes, I just like to uh make a comment related to some other questions.

[0:48:18] Randall Roth: Will it will it be in will it be in verse, Terry?

[0:48:23] Caller (Terry): No.

[0:48:25] Randall Roth: Oh, okay. Well, that's all right. Go ahead. I wish I was as creative as your last caller, but Great. Go for it.

[0:48:33] Caller (Terry): Um, the ways I've been taught with the military and what I like about the military is um, its purpose is to provide freedom for for United States and for other countries. And when I see, whether it's blacks in the 40s, or gays in the 90s, it's not a social experiment, but it's incongruous when it discriminates against and does not provide freedom for any class of people. And I've had friends who are gay in the military who have been drummed out. Uh, I know there's not the same justice in the military, but this this uh, philosophically, it's a hypocrisy. And also, there are bashings in um, the military, and it's heightened by higher public officials, and

[0:48:33] Caller (Terry): I'm really glad to hear your guess seemed to be more um, educated and not ignorant like a lot of people. I I have seen like on TV, um Senator none for one, and what they're what they're doing to people and I hope that your speakers can be as eloquent. In this statement, this is not a social experiment. This is what the military is supposed to be, freedom and justice for all people, whether they're blacks in the 40s, and thank God for Harry Truman, or whether they're gays in the 90s, and just let President Clinton do his job for all of American citizens and I hope that the military can quickly be a reflection of where

[0:48:33] Caller (Terry): society is going.

[0:50:00] Randall Roth: Okay, thank thank you very much, Terry. Appreciate your call. In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm here with the former Commander in Chief of Pacific Forces, also known as CINCPAC, Admiral Ronald J. Hayes and Chamber of Commerce of Hawaii President Paul R. Lister, who is a Major General in the US Army Reserve. Your calls are welcome. The number is 955-8821. Well, gentlemen, environmentalists often criticize the military. The military generally, and the military here in Hawaii. Uh how would you describe the military's impact on Hawaii's environment?

[0:50:57] Paul Lister: Well, I think that the military like our general population has only recently come to a level of awareness about environmental issues. Uh, I know that when I first joined the Army, uh we used to take oil and spread it on the ground in the motor pool to keep the dust down, uh and nobody thought anything about it because the same sort of thing was done in the civilian community on roads, and and uh people are simply more aware now. And I think that this is one of the areas where the military is actually doing a much better job than the general public is doing, but it's not getting a lot of recognition for it. There's

[0:50:57] Paul Lister: some very significant uh environmental initiatives that are occurring. I can tell you for sure that every military commander is extremely aware of all of the environmental issues that exist on their basis, and they're trying to do everything that they can within the resources that they have to remediate those environmental issues out there.

[0:51:36] Randall Roth: Ron, a caller earlier uh left a question and it has to do with uh nuclear submarines and uh what's going to happen to nuclear waste. Uh especially with respect to the state of Hawaii. What level of concern should we have about uh, you know, the nuclear submarines that come and go here in Hawaii?

[0:52:04] Ron Hays: I don't think that there's any justification for great concern on the part of uh nuclear submarines uh coming and going. The Navy has demonstrated over 35 or so years that nuclear power can be harnessed and used very effectively. A large percentage of the ships in the Navy today are nuclear powered and we have yet to have a serious incident of any kind. There have been minor incidents, but uh nothing of any major proportion has occurred. So the anxiety that uh you often see reported in the newspapers is not all that well-founded quite frankly. Now, the disposal of nuclear waste is a major problem because nobody wants to receive it. No state uh wishes to have

[0:52:04] Ron Hays: nuclear waste stored in its uh within its territory and that is understandable, but we have got to devise a scheme for the disposal of nuclear waste and that's being worked on by a lot of very smart people right now.

[0:53:10] Randall Roth: Let's hope they figure it out. We have several callers on the line. Bill from Kailua, you're on the air.

[0:53:18] Caller (Bill): Hi. I was just uh wanted to observe that uh considering how critical Hawaii has been to the US military since the Spanish-American War, it's just a shame that there is no national museum devoted to the Pacific War and uh out here. And uh I was wondering if Barbara's Point uh when it shuts down would be a good site for a museum.

[0:53:47] Randall Roth: I think that's a a great question, and I'm going to uh ask Paul to respond to it. And then I'm going to ask Ron to talk a little bit about the USS Missouri Battleship. Paul?

[0:54:04] Paul Lister: Well, I think uh I'm not sure that Barbara's Point would be the best place for it. I personally have a a different point of view about where it ought to go, but I I agree wholeheartedly. Uh, I think that our nation needs a uh a national memorial site uh that commemorates uh the Second World War, and I can't think of a better place to have that than here in Honolulu. And I think the best place to have it is in Pearl Harbor. And uh Admiral Hayes and and his efforts to get the USS Missouri here is a major uh factor in all of that. If we could get the USS Missouri here, and have the

[0:54:04] Paul Lister: Arizona and the Missouri, which are the sort of the alpha and the omega, the the two symbolic bookends of the Second World War, and then ashore from from those two vessels, build a World War II memorial that's the equivalent of what Gettysburg is to the Civil War, I think it would be a great thing for our nation and it would be a great thing for Hawaii.

[0:55:15] Ron Hays: There's no national museum for uh Korea or Vietnam either.

[0:55:21] Randall Roth: Ron, I think more than anyone individual, you're thought of as being the the force pushing to have the USS Missouri brought back here to Hawaii. Uh can you tell us a little bit about why you're doing that and what you you hope would be accomplished?

[0:55:42] Ron Hays: Well, there are a great number of people that uh endorse the idea and are supporting it uh in a variety of ways. This is real opportunity for the state. I think it's real opportunity for [unintelligible — audio glitch] Navy and the military, for that matter, because here you have a proud symbol of uh not only naval might, but uh our accomplishments uh over the years in uh in a military sense. Uh it's it's right from a number of perspectives. And I would like to see the Missouri towed out here from Bremerton, Washington, and converted into a uh uh museum, a memorial that all Americans, and others for that matter, can be uh proud of.

[0:57:00] Ron Hays: the importance to the military of having land available to exercise to store its ammunition to do the things that are necessary for military preparedness. That is a requirement.

[0:57:07] Randall Roth: Mm-hmm. And I think we're going to do it. Oh, you do? Soon?

[0:57:15] Ron Hays: We have as an objective having the ship here for the 50th uh anniversary of the VJ Day uh for uh that commemoration, which will be a very big event, consuming several days and we hope that the President will be here. What better venue for the President's major speech than the fantail of the USS Missouri, where the armistice that ended World War II took place.

[0:57:17] Randall Roth: and to your knowledge, there isn't extra land that the military currently holds or controls?

[0:57:23] Ron Hays: to my knowledge, there is no extra land. Now, as Paul mentioned earlier, there is a commission that is looking at the military use of land throughout Hawaii. And what it will find is yet to be determined. Appreciate that the military is reducing in size right now, and there well may be opportunity for the military to release some of the the land that is now in use, but I I don't have any specific knowledge of that.

[0:57:58] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Paul, do you have any luck finding the the quote from Leroy Laney who is the chief economist at First Hawaiian Bank? He has a a study called the role of the military in Hawaii's economy that I suspect First Hawaiian Bank has a number of copies of, and if listeners out there interested in knowing more about the impact of the military on the economy of Hawaii, they might want to check with First Hawaiian Bank.

[0:58:07] Randall Roth: Mm, interesting. We have another caller on the line. Larry from Makiki, you're on the air.

[0:58:17] Caller (Larry): Hi, I wanted to support the previous caller who felt that a good deal of Oahu land was occupied by the military and I went to the Hawaii data book. The data book I'm looking at is um 1988, which is pretty old, but it's the only one I have. And it does say that the land uh area of Oahu is 403,154 acres, of which 93,888 um is uh acreage owned or controlled by the US Department of Defense. That's about 23 or 24% of the total area of Oahu. And it uh it is a substantial amount of coverage, don't you think?

[0:58:24] Randall Roth: Gentlemen, I want to thank you. Today's topic was the military's impact on the people of Hawaii. My guests have been Admiral Ronald Hayes, US Navy retired and Major General Paul Lister of the US Army Reserve. He also is the president of the Chamber of Commerce of Hawaii. This week's show was produced by Susie Roth with help on the phones from John Roth and technical assistance from Mark Wagner. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

[0:59:16] Randall Roth: It certainly is quite a bit. Go ahead.

[0:59:19] Caller (Larry): Yeah, well, uh, I guess, I guess the point is the feeling that some people may have that it is a large area and that uh the um feelings uh of military occupation might arise. And also my own my own particular concern is that uh uh the importance of Hawaii as a military installation can't be underrated. It's a very important site, particularly with the closing of the bases in the Philippines. And that entails in our modern nuclear age a certain amount of risk, um that we are also a very large target, and I'd like to ask uh the guest to please address that.

[0:59:38] Randall Roth: Okay. Paul, any thoughts on that?

[0:59:42] Paul Lister: Well, on the on the fact that we're a target, I think the fact that the Cold War is now over and the any targeting that would have been that would have occurred is probably much greatly lessened uh by the fact that uh the Soviets are no longer pointing their nuclear missiles at us. Uh, it's at one point, I think we probably would have been a major target, but so would have every other major city in the United States. Um, I'm not I don't think that that's a something that should really concern our citizenry to any great extent today.