Public Education in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-07-17
Guests: Herman Aizawa (Superintendent, Hawaii Department of Education); Karen Knudsen (member, State Board of Education)
Duration: 1:08:52

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: This is Randy, the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's topic is public education in Hawaii and my guests are two people who are right in the center of all the action. Herman Aizawa is state superintendent of schools and Karen Knudsen is a member of the State Board of Education. Listeners are invited to participate by calling 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are invited to call collect. Well, I'm looking right now at something that was written by Herman Aizawa, it's called Success Compact, every student every time, and one of the things in it is a a statement that across the nation and in Hawaii public education is not enjoying high satisfaction ratings. I guess Herman a good way to

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: start this conversation would be to ask you how would you describe the quality of our public schools in Hawaii today.

[0:00:51] Herman Aizawa: I think the quality of education in Hawaii has been growing over the years. and uh what former superintendents Hatanaka and Toguchi have done I think is to lay a real solid foundation, to bring people together, to look at how we can tie in uh families, the community with the schools, which is a real important issue today. um more so than it has been in the past, because in the past maybe there was a given. Today, we have to work at it. And I think the foundation that was laid leads to I think uh a basis for us to move forward. The status of education in Hawaii, especially when we uh review what has happened or

[0:00:51] Herman Aizawa: what is happening in other school districts across the nation, uh we find that there are so many things that we do well, there are so many things that the state of Hawaii can be proud of. For example at the most recent educational commission of the states conference, we had over a thousand people including about a hundred plus people from Hawaii, from across the nation uh repeatedly, we saw how the kinds of things we're doing with school community-based management, the fact of decentralizing, the fact of bringing parents together through parent community networking centers, our various programs that foster this. SCBM itself mandates that we have parents uh who need to be involved. I think the overall

[0:00:51] Herman Aizawa: development that is going on in the state of Hawaii and what has had hap what has happened in the past clearly leads to me to believe that the quality of education is very well in Hawaii. Now, to say that we don't need to improve, no, that's not what I'm saying.

[0:02:31] Randall Roth: Karen, uh you're a member of the Board of Education and uh Herman has invited the board to hold him accountable for improved student performance. So I guess we need some sort of baseline. How would you describe the situation today?

[0:02:45] Karen Knudsen: I think we have to look, I hate to make a blanket statement. The education system in Hawaii is good, bad, we have pockets of excellent schools, teachers, principals, classrooms, students. We have other areas that need some support and help, and I think it's very difficult to make a blanket statement about a whole system statewide. I do think the role of schools have been changing over the years. People are still wondering what the role of the school is. If we're only looking at academic excellence, that's one thing. But our schools aren't only doing academic uh work. We're we're addressing social problems, we're a place where students can come, we could be the only solid thing in

[0:02:45] Karen Knudsen: that child's life. So I think we need to look at the academics plus everything else. And we have a lot of challenges out there. But I do think we have been and it's hard for us living here to recognize as Dr. Aizawa said, we have been a model for the nation in terms of a lot of the different innovative programs that we have initiated. People are amazed when they come here and see what we have done. It's just that we have a huge one centralized system and in some areas it works better than others and we're very quick to criticize ourselves. But if you go to Los Angeles, Chicago, Denver, and you see the real

[0:02:45] Karen Knudsen: problems they're facing, hey, we have problems but we don't have near the problems some of them face.

[0:04:00] Randall Roth: Why, why the perception in the public that the quality isn't what it should be? Why the report from Lex Brodie that something is quote, desperately wrong? Uh the con the columns from Bud Smiser saying that there're big big problems right now in public education in Hawaii. Karen?

[0:04:16] Karen Knudsen: I think there are some big problems. I don't want to comment about the Brodie report. I disagree with a lot of that was in his report. A brand new board member brand new into the system when that was written. I think now, uh Lex might have a different viewpoint on some on some things. Um we do have problems. I won't deny that we have problems in terms of the whole state in a recession, we have problems in a lot of different areas. There are pockets of problems. But there are also some very good things going on out there and it's I wonder about this too, I think about it we we have this overall feeling

[0:04:16] Karen Knudsen: of no, things aren't right. And yet I visit school after school and I see these children performing in the teachers, and I'm thinking, why is this perception we're doing so poorly?

[0:04:58] Herman Aizawa: Herman, why is this perception out there? Well, I I think uh the farther you are away from it, the more you would tend to feel that it's not doing as well. And I don't fault our public uh for having the perception that in essence things should be better. You know, I I think it's important that we continue to work towards that all the time. And um people have a sense and education is one thing that people have all experienced. And the older you get, the better you used to be. I think that has a factor, you know, you think that wow if things were like it were before, how great it would be today. But

[0:04:58] Herman Aizawa: I know we'll be talking a lot more about this issue, but I think the public sometimes have seen and experienced things that make them really believe that the school system is not really working well. And sometimes we don't fault them, especially when we have to follow up when some of the issues that take place in our schools. On the other hand, there are so many great things. Look at the scholarships, look at the awards, look at the recognition that our students receive. And you know, I I think it's overwhelmingly on the positive side.

[0:06:03] Randall Roth: Want to remind listeners that our phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. Well let's talk about yardsticks. Um I think it's it's really uh noteworthy that you've invited the Board of Education to hold you personally accountable for improved student performance. How do we measure it so that we know whether or not it has improved?

[0:06:24] Herman Aizawa: Um thank you for asking that question. It's a great question. I think it's it's uh it's absolutely mandatory that we in the state of Hawaii come up with uh and I'm talking about the Department of Education and working together with our community, come up with a process that we can really hold uh myself, the department, the people in the department, um everybody who's related to education accountable. One starting from how resources are given to the schools and then of course how schools use the resources and if and in effect, how do we measure whether we've gotten where we need to get to. I think it's important that an accountability and an assessment system that is

[0:06:24] Herman Aizawa: comprehensive that not only looks at whether the students are learning, but looks at things for example like the teacher evaluation system, the principal evaluation system, including the superintendent too. What kinds of things do we do to assure that there is quality education happening in the in the classroom. As you know, my tenure is based on looking at literacy and looking at developing literacy skills in students and the and the place that it's going to make a difference is in that classroom. So, what kinds of things do you measure? You should measure what kinds of things are happening in the classroom. You should measure what kinds of things for example the total school is doing. For

[0:06:24] Herman Aizawa: example, uh attendance, and not only student attendance, but teacher attendance. Look at the kinds of disciplinary problems or lack of it that we find in the schools. Look at how well the school campus is kept. So you have school kind of indicators then you have classroom indicators. You hear education educational people talking about portfolios, which is really a compendium of the kinds of work that the students have done in the classroom. Artwork, reports, reports uh, essays, written work. Then the third leg, school type indicators, classroom type indicators and the third leg is a real important one. One that we believe is should not be excluded, and that is your comparative standardized norm reference test. We

[0:06:24] Herman Aizawa: do need to be able to show that our students in the state of Hawaii can do as well or better than other places. And that's the role of that last leg. Now, it's a three legged stool. It's not a one legged stool. I think when you come to perception also, when we talked about earlier, people really believe that that one last leg is the indicator, and that's not true. We need to take a look at all of the other uh portions of that that make up this assessment system and and doing well on the Stanford achievement tests and doing well on the scholastic assessment tests are important, and we should also be very uh concerned

[0:06:24] Herman Aizawa: about how well our students do there.

[0:09:10] Randall Roth: Okay. We have a caller, Herman from Maui. Herman, you're on the air.

[0:09:15] Herman Aizawa: Thank you. I have a well, a whole lot of questions about the school system and and the Board of Education and the library system. But I I really like to get it down to one basic fundamental thing and I'd like to ask the other Herman who has the same initials HA as I do, and we've met a lot of times when he's come to Maui and argued a lot of times about philosophies and things. Uh I think it's it's hardware uh and using numbers, the people who want to say the schools aren't doing any good uh use their numbers and the people that say they're doing better than other places in the United States, use

[0:09:15] Herman Aizawa: their numbers. And I don't think that any of them mean anything. What means something to me in the quality assurance business in construction and soils testing and and flood control and what not is can you take someone 18 years old who's not going to go to college and get any further education and explain what we're trying to do. And if he in the 12 years that he was in Herman Azawa's system, learned how to learn, he could then read plans and specifications and what not. And I don't mean be uh a 20-year experience consultant or anything but Herman Herman on Maui, let's ask Herman on Oahu, what his reaction is to that. Hi, Herman. Good

[0:09:15] Herman Aizawa: morning. How are you?

[0:11:00] Randall Roth: How you doing? You know, three out of three is great. First, you have my first initial, then my second initial, and I'm also from Maui. So, I think any response I give you, you're going to really appreciate and like.

[0:11:14] Herman Aizawa: Um basically Herman, if you saw my uh success compact and it was um in the in the newspapers, about the Star Bulletin and an advertiser and let me say the news media did a good job with uh presenting it to the public. Uh you'd you would see that one of the greatest things that are my whole effort is based on is literacy. We strongly believe, Herman, that if we can provide the students with the ability to read, to write, to relate, which is so important today, we need to work together and we need to be able to deal with each other. If we provide those skills, they'll be able to deal with any content area.

[0:11:14] Herman Aizawa: And what's going to happen in the schools is the curriculum is really going to skyrocket when the students have the ability. So, to answer your question directly, yes, this student who leaves the public school system, after going through the success compact process like we're talking about, we provide those skills to our students, is going to be able to read that blueprint. Is going to be able to sit down and meet with his manager or supervisor and say, look, I see a flaw here. Maybe we need to do this. The thinking process is also one of the greatest legs of this literacy stool and I think it's it's it's very critical and we support your concept

[0:11:14] Herman Aizawa: and you're right. It's not so much the comparison on a statewide or district-wide basis. It's what every student can do when he leaves our system and our commitment is to provide those skills so he can deal with any content area. Be he a doctor, a lawyer, be an engineer, be a person who's going to work in our service system. I don't care if he works in a gas station. You know, I I really don't care where he works or what he does Exactly. Yeah. If if he has the comprehension and and my sincere problem, my argument has been and and you know it personally and I'm I'm not saying it on the air to down

[0:11:14] Herman Aizawa: you or or the state system. I think that the matrix of a highly centralized state administration of schools and the highly centralized Board of Education is intentionally or unintentionally aimed at college.

[0:13:28] Randall Roth: Okay. Herman, let's let Herman on Oahu respond to that.

[0:13:35] Herman Aizawa: Okay. Okay. That's exactly why the Board of Education and the department have moved to things like school community-based management, where a school could work with his community or community work with the school to make a difference on their own uh objectives, where they want to head to, what kinds of things they want to do. The most recent uh omnibus bill that was passed provides for student-centered schools where you talk about a school being able and its community being able to be free of all statutory controls. Can you imagine that? Herman, you talk about decentralization. I don't know how much more decentralization you want.

[0:14:11] Randall Roth: Herman, Herman on Maui, I really appreciate your questions. We want to give some other folks uh an opportunity to ask some questions. Uh appreciate your call.

[0:14:19] Herman Aizawa: Okay.

[0:14:20] Randall Roth: Um in case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and I'm here with the head of the State Department of Education, Herman Aizawa and a member of the State Board of Education, Karen Knudsen. Your calls are welcome. The number is 955-8821. Well a real big point that Herman on Maui raised is uh who's in charge, accountability, all that sort of thing and Karen I know that uh in the not too distant past, there's been some discussion of uh perhaps giving the Board of Education the power to raise taxes which would certainly uh uh put it in a hotter seat than it's in right now. There also

[0:14:20] Randall Roth: is current uh discussion and the possibility of our going from an elective school board to an appointive school board. Right now, I think there's the perception the governor is not really in control because the board members are are elected. The board isn't really in control because the legislature appropriates the money. Uh who should be in control and how do we get there?

[0:15:19] Karen Knudsen: I'd like to say that first of all, I want to make a statement about the um elected versus appointed and uh outcome of the students and their performance. Um I recently sat on the Governance Task Force and in in preparing for a lot of the hearings we had statewide, we asked a lot of questions and one of them were looking we looked at states that had appointed boards versus states that had elected boards, and we looked at their performance and how well the students did. There was no difference. You couldn't say this state with their appointed board did much better than this state with an elected board. So we can put that aside, basically. Um

[0:15:19] Karen Knudsen: I do think in terms of of accountability and who should be in charge, I would say an elected Board of Education for the state of Hawaii. We have a very centralized system of government and I think we need an independent voice for the children of this state because often, you know, politics and very serious politics start to play in to how decisions are made, and I'm not really faulting that. That just happens to be part of the process and I think it doesn't hurt to have a board of education that meets year round only on education matters throughout the state, as opposed to a legislature that meets you know, so many months out of the

[0:15:19] Karen Knudsen: year and they're dealing with everything in the whole state. So I think that we need a board of education who can set education policy but working with the governor and with the legislature we shouldn't be adversaries at all and that's that's crazy how this whole feeling has developed. We need the governor, governor is very important for the leader of the state to kind of set the tone and we need the legislature.

[0:16:49] Randall Roth: You know, what you've said makes great sense to me, but I'm curious how many people do you think who walk into the voting booth really recognize most of the names of the people running for the board of education?

[0:17:01] Karen Knudsen: I would hope many people do. If they don't, I'm wondering if they've know if they know their legislature, legislator. If they know who they're voting for the senate or the congress or anything else. I would think that somebody who went into the to the voting booth would know who they're prepared to vote for, whether it's Board of Education, um city council member or anything else. Now, years ago, we didn't have a primary for Board of Education, they just put all the names down and there could be 20, 30 names. But we now have a primary and the the for Oahu at large of which I'm I'm running, it's now down to six people. Now, I

[0:17:01] Karen Knudsen: don't think that's too many, you know, for people to have some idea about the philosophy.

[0:17:39] Randall Roth: I would hope not. We have a caller from Kailua, Norma, you're on the air.

[0:17:45] Caller (Norma): Good morning, Norma. Hello, um one concern of mine was we're basing some of our opinions on the SAT scores, but one assumption is, are the children the same as they were 15-20 years ago? I know they're drug babies, um alcoholic syndrome type children that are coming into the school system. Are the children the same?

[0:18:13] Randall Roth: Let's have uh Karen Knudsen say something since she's chomping at the bit here.

[0:18:17] Karen Knudsen: Our children aren't the same and not only the children not the same, the families aren't the same. And that I started to say earlier, you know, what is the role of the schools? We we right now, in fact I had a conversation with a teacher just last week who dreads parent-teacher conferences, not because she doesn't want to get to know the parents, but because they don't focus about the academics in the classroom. She learns all about the child's problems, the family problems and the parents are looking to her for answers, and she feels very inadequate trying to be a social worker in addition to being a teacher. And I think we're finding more and more

[0:18:17] Karen Knudsen: of our our teachers facing that. So the children are different although we also can't say they're all bad. These kids with what they know

[0:19:00] Speaker 1: about communications and and computers. I mean, our teachers now are having to keep up with them. So it's a real challenge.

[0:19:06] Randall Roth: I know it. You have both ends of the spectrum

[0:19:09] Randall Roth: Norman, let's also get Herman's thoughts on your question.

[0:19:12] Herman Aizawa: Yeah, no, I I just wanted to put a light touch on this. Um, you know, as we started in the program earlier, if you were with us at the beginning, uh what Randy was talking about, the whole issue of accountability and measurement and what kinds of things we're going to be held responsible for, and the SAT scores, of course, as I mentioned, is one important leg of this triad on how we assist schools, but uh uh if you're if you haven't seen in the newspapers or heard on television and the radio, um I would like to be measured, assessed on how well I do within the school year. You know why? They're going to renorm

[0:19:12] Herman Aizawa: the SATs. We understand that it's going to go up by 25 points. And you know how significant one or two points is? I would like to say that in my short tenure one year a superintendent, I will have raised SAT scores, which is the the scholastic assessment by 25 points. That would be fantastic. But that's a light touch. I think it's important to to follow up on uh what what Karen has said here. Um you know, we are faced with so many different things today that we weren't faced with in the past. You know, one quick example, you know, when we were going to school, that was back in 19, I don't want to say

[0:19:12] Herman Aizawa: when I was went back in school but uh I think it's uh uh we remember that if we got into trouble in school, we'd go home and we'd get double. Yes. You know, it's it's it's not like that today. And and I think maybe for the better. Personally, I used to be in I used to be in so much trouble when I was in high school. But, you know, it's um it it's it's a kind of a thing that we we look at how individual rights have really skyrocketed, and I think that's important. What we need to do today though is to balance. We are faced, yes, with many different things, but we need to

[0:19:12] Herman Aizawa: work with the system with the schools today and no sense really saying that's not the way it used to be. What we need to do is see what we can do to make appropriate changes, appropriate moves, so we can deal with the with the various problems that students come to us with. But we are we do feel frustrated many times because we just can't get to the academics or the cognitive development as quickly as we'd like to.

[0:21:27] Randall Roth: Norman?

[0:21:27] Herman Aizawa: Yes.

[0:21:28] Randall Roth: Is that answer your question?

[0:21:29] Herman Aizawa: Thank you.

[0:21:30] Randall Roth: Thank you. You know, talking about not getting to that, I know there's at least a perception that discipline is is a big problem in the schools and uh and that safety in the schools is a a growing concern. If I recall correctly, there was a study conducted by the Teachers Union that indicated that something like 24% of the teachers' time was spent just um with disciplinary matters. Herman, how big of a concern is that and what's being done about it?

[0:21:57] Herman Aizawa: It's a big concern, and I think it's something we need to work very closely with our teachers uh with their union. Uh we need to work on things that will help make our students successful. And again, I'm, you know, we started this whole dialogue with the with some statements that included questions about how we might help students um have a better self-image and better self-esteem. The important thing here is to have students become successful in school, and this is why I'm focusing on the classroom. We really believe that a lot of the disciplinary problems, yes, well, some of it anyway, maybe brought into school because of the situation in the community and the home, but

[0:21:57] Herman Aizawa: more than that, we believe that if, in fact, we can help the students be successful to read, to write, to be able to say, you know what, I can read. You know, where so many of our students cannot say that. And that what what we need to do is to assure that our teachers continue to get the kind of help and support they need to help our students learn. That student-teacher interaction, that instructional process, what goes on in there, and this is where I'm placing my focus. I'm putting resources, people, dollars to assure that we have that kind of development. Students being successful, student literacy is not just helping students to read and write. Student

[0:21:57] Herman Aizawa: literacy helps to develop the kind of responsible citizens we want. Student literacy helps to support our democratic viewpoint. If we don't have people who can who can look at um our world today and see what our responsibilities are to ourselves and each other, it's not going to happen. Being able to read and write, being successful in school will directly speak to the disciplinary problems, we believe.

[0:23:47] Randall Roth: Okay. We have several callers on the line. The first is Lee from Oahu. Lee, you're on the air.

[0:24:03] Caller (Lee): Uh hello. Good morning. Good morning, uh Dr. Aizawa. Uh I have a question for you. First comment. I uh need to be honest. I have no doubt that you're qualified to be the uh superintendent. But uh I must say I was pulling for Phil Bossert and I was hoping you would keep him on your staff. Yeah, I've uh known him for a number of years, but my main reason for favoring him was his proactive stance on uh educational technology, uh telecommunications, networking, and that sort of thing. I haven't heard much from you in that line. Could you uh comment on your uh ideas and how proactive you are on uh educational technology?

[0:24:37] Herman Aizawa: Very proactive. We're, you know, part of a whole literacy effort is really the combination of the Office of of Info- information telecommunication services and the Office of Instructional Services. That partnership is going to get us where we want to get to. You're going to find in a very near future as we begin our new school year, there shall be uh tremendous more opportunities for our schools to get directly involved, not only in preparing the infrastructure in our schools and the computers and the hardware, but to get on things like the internet, to be able to expand the curriculum. You know how exciting it would be for a child working at Royal Elementary School to be

[0:24:37] Herman Aizawa: working [unintelligible — audio glitch] student in uh in Wisconsin, uh one of the elementary schools in Wisconsin, or Japan, or or Finland, or Germany, and these are the kinds of opportunities we're going to foster. We're going to make it possible for the use of the various hardware to help our students get more information, for example, to the CD ROMs and things like this. There's no question that it has to play an important part. If we are to prepare our students for the 21st century, they have to be prepared relative to the technology of today. Uh as we all know, though, technology uh that we use today would probably be old stuff by next year, by

[0:24:37] Herman Aizawa: the following year. We have to continue to work towards constant improvement. But the role of technology relative to helping our students get data, massage data, analyze, bring together thoughts, ideas, share with people, and then come up with good decisions, take one issue for example, like the environment. Can we get the same kind of information that we used to through an Eric search? No way. Compared to what we can today through the internet and other other opportunities that we have to tie into professors, people doing research in various places in the world. So yes, these are the kinds of things that we are going to focus on, and it shall be part of our our literacy

[0:24:37] Herman Aizawa: effort to make people capable to uh be knowledgeable enough to deal today with information and, of course, pointing to the future, too.

[0:26:47] Caller (Lee): Lee, does that sound proactive?

[0:26:49] Herman Aizawa: Very good, I'm somewhat reassured. Thank you very much. Thank you, Lee.

[0:26:53] Randall Roth: We have another caller, Mike from Manoa. Mike, you're on the air.

[0:26:57] Caller (Mike): Oh, good morning. Uh I'd like to follow up uh on Herman's uh comments on literacy. Um the perennial issue, or one of the perennial issues in Hawaiian education is pidgin or Hawaiian Creole English. Um the territorial government's approach was to create the English standard school system, uh and this was overturned by the Democratic Revolution of 1954. And since then, uh HCE is considered by some, has been come to consider by some as a language or a source of identity. Um two questions. Do you think it's a problem, and if so, how would you address it? And I think maybe Herman and Karen could both speak to that subject, and I'll hang up.

[0:27:42] Herman Aizawa: Thank you very much, Mike. Thank you. Okay Mike, um it's a good question. As we look at helping our students become responsible citizens, as we look at helping our students be able to be functional, creative, responsible uh people that function not only in our society as I mentioned earlier, but in the global society, it's important that we assure that they have the skills to deal with standard English. There's no question about that. Uh there's been policy by the board, the Department of Education, to assure that in fact that is the language that is used in the schools. Uh I think it's a time and place issue also. You know, uh we have live in Hawaii,

[0:27:42] Herman Aizawa: those of us who have grown up here um and for a long time and have dealt with people who utilize it, our parents, our uncles and aunts, our friends, and it's not something to look upon as not a good thing, but I think it's the one that we try to deal with our students as an appropriate time and place issue. There are times when I use pidgin as I deal with some of my friends, and sometimes without thinking about it. And then when I say it, I say, did I say that? You know, but it's it's kind of a shocking kind of a situation. And yet I do not look down upon Pidgin because sometimes

[0:27:42] Herman Aizawa: I do use it as I deal with my 85-year-old aunts and uncles. You know, I think it's important that a student be able to turn it on and turn it off, and not to put a positive or negative value on the issue. No question, we teach standard English. That has to be the basis, and you know, English or other Asian-Pacific European languages uh really help a person to develop his thinking process. And you know, as you know, there are a lot of uh push now to have more than one language be at the the hands of our students.

[0:29:28] Karen Knudsen: Yeah, I'd like to sort of echo a little bit of what Herman has said. I I don't like to put a negative value by any means on Pidgin. I mean, that's part of the cultural heritage here. People interact, they communicate that way, and I certainly wouldn't want to send the message that the language you spoken at home is not a good language. But English is a tool. It has to be looked at. Standard English is a tool um to use in business and that's how we operate and that has to be very important. But my kids growing up here, I hope they learn Pidgin. They look a little ridiculous right now trying it. They don't

[0:29:28] Karen Knudsen: quite have it, but um but I think it is it is something that is part of Hawaii and it's fine. But English has to be a tool of the classroom, a tool of business and what we use uh professionally and in other fields. Okay. We have another

[0:38:00] Randall Roth: for callers. Let's take them and then, Karen, I want to come back and let you finish your thoughts on that. Morris from the Big Island, Morris, you're on the air.

[0:38:06] Caller (Morris): uh, good morning. Um, I'm a public school teacher on the Big Island. I'm an elementary teacher and um, I just like to make a couple comments and ask for some kind of response to them. It it seems to me that the from my perspective, the major problem uh that I face is um, class size. And regardless of whether it's academic achievement uh and success on the part of the students or dealing with what was called earlier the social worker role that teachers have to uh take nowadays, when you have anything in any grade over grade two, when you have upwards to 30 or more students in a classroom, uh your success in being able to

[0:38:06] Caller (Morris): deal with that many children is uh really hampered.

[0:38:57] Randall Roth: Morris is, Morris, is that typically the size you're looking at in your particular school, about 30?

[0:39:03] Caller (Morris): Uh, anything over grade two, yes, at least 30.

[0:39:06] Randall Roth: Let let me get Herman's thoughts about your first comment then I want to come back to you.

[0:39:10] Herman Aizawa: Okay. Okay, Morris uh um, that's that's a really good question. It's uh something that we commit to continue to work at because we believe uh one individual trying to personalize the education of the 30 children or so that you have, for example, in your own classroom, cannot do as as good a job as if as if it were 20 or 15. And the magic number as we look at research is about 15. And they say that it doesn't make a difference if you change from like 30 to 25. I think those researchers haven't been in a classroom. But I think it does and the whole issue is that we are committed to try to continue

[0:39:10] Herman Aizawa: to work towards lowering it. We're very happy that we got for K 1, 2 and 3 a 20 to 1 ratio. It is costly. It is uh an issue of priority, and I know we have to continue to work with teachers, with our principals, with the unions uh and our community to to see what can be done, but we believe that the the high number of students that we or large number of students that we deal with in the classroom does have an impact on the quality of education.

[0:40:14] Randall Roth: Morris?

[0:40:15] Caller (Morris): Uh, I yeah. Um I think from my perspective, one of the main problems, uh the school that I teach at, we've had over the last few years a number of portable buildings constructed. Each of those portable buildings costs in excess of $100,000 to put up. Uh, the reasons why they cost so much to my understanding is that there is a state law uh requiring that all work done for the state be done by union contractors. Uh I realize that uh the union is very beneficial to very many people, but the fact of the matter is when you have a a union uh contractor subbing out to other union contractors, there's a tremendous cost inflation to

[0:40:15] Caller (Morris): putting up these portables and uh it's a it's an enormous waste of money uh to be uh putting up a portable building for in in excess of $100,000. If that money, if it was done differently, a whole lot of money could be uh saved and put into hiring more teachers and building more classrooms.

[0:41:30] Randall Roth: Morris, I I let pull it back into education. Um, your your comment is a real interesting one, uh but uh we need to save that one for when we got different guests. Uh do you have another comment that uh either Karen or or Herman might want to address?

[0:41:46] Caller (Morris): Yeah, the last the last thing on my mind had to do with uh testing and Mr. Aizawa's statement earlier looking at comprehensive assessment and you mentioned the three legged stool um analogy. It still seems to me from everything that I've heard you say this morning, and everything that I've heard uh over the last number of years from the uh state department as well as my district as well as my principals, that it still comes down to SAT scores.

[0:42:23] Herman Aizawa: No, it doesn't.

[0:42:25] Caller (Morris): Well, that that's the message that really comes across.

[0:42:27] Herman Aizawa: Yeah, you talk about perception, yeah, and we hope to change that because there's no question every time I say that, if you notice Morris, whenever I talk about that issue with the news media, I talk about the three legs. Guess which one is reported? So it's not so much as we not thinking about taking a look at some school indicators, taking a look at the classroom indicators as much as and you know, I don't want to fight with the media as often as I do about the issue. But a lot of the times what happens is the reporting comes out only one way. And I try to assure that by challenging them, and I say

[0:42:27] Herman Aizawa: that I know I'm spending 15 minutes with you talking about assessment and accountability, and I know what you're going to say in the end through the media. And it's going to come out that all we're looking at is a comparative norm reference standardized SAT score. And I hope by doing that to them, they kind of want to assure that that's not what happens. And over the last couple of reports that I've had after interviews, they have mentioned the other areas. And and also some of them say, you know, we get edited too and a lot of the times they write things but it doesn't come out completely because, you know, there's only so much space

[0:42:27] Herman Aizawa: in the news media, etc. But let me assure you that when we go out, when we talk to the legislators, when we when I talk to the public, when I talk to school people, I do talk about a comprehensive approach, a more authentic approach versus only focusing on the SAT.

[0:43:58] Randall Roth: Morris, thanks a lot for your call.

[0:44:00] Caller (Morris): Thank you.

[0:44:01] Randall Roth: Uh, want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise radio show and today's topic is public education in Hawaii. My guests are Superintendent of schools Herman Aizawa and board of education member Karen Knutson. We're live, and our phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. We have a caller from Makiki. Frank, you're on the air.

[0:44:23] Caller (Frank): Good morning. I wanted to ask well uh first just to make a comment about Pigeon. I don't think that we need to apologize for it, but everybody needs to remember that uh you need to remember that when it's appropriate, that you who you're talking to. Um, would it be interesting for Hawaii to uh consider that unfortunate uh term year-round schooling? I'll hang up. Thank you.

[0:44:51] Randall Roth: Thank you, Frank. Karen Knutson, what do you think?

[0:44:53] Karen Knudsen: It's already available. We're doing it on on Maui. And uh it can be done. So, and it is up to individual schools as I understand it. So the the process is there, it's up to the schools now to determine if that's what they want. There are some things we need to um work out a little bit, but it's there.

[0:45:11] Randall Roth: How how do we accomplish that when the other day we were celebrating because the governor said we're not going to reduce the budget. In other words, your budget is is not being increased and you're wanting to bring down class size and you're wanting to spend more money on on better teacher training or what have you. How can we do all of this in this climate of of resources not increasing, Karen?

[0:45:36] Karen Knudsen: You know, I would like there are some things we're going to have to maybe push at at our level. Um, I don't know, board level but uh superintendent level. We might have to look at staggering hours, somehow increasing the class day by and we have to work with the teachers and the unions on this and work that out, but perhaps adding an extra hour or so to the day. Teachers still teaching the same amount so we don't have to, you know, pay that extra.

[0:46:00] Randall Roth: Now, now, just to play devil's advocate, if I were working for the teachers union, I'd say, no, wait a minute, you're asking us to do more without recompensation.

[0:46:07] Karen Knudsen: No, no, no, no, you just might start, start maybe 15, 20 minutes earlier some of the teachers and some teachers might work for an extra 15, or not extra, but start a little bit later, but work until say 3 o'clock instead of 2:30.

[0:46:18] Randall Roth: So the kids are at the school longer but the teachers as a whole aren't.

[0:46:21] Karen Knudsen: Right. You can kind of start a little bit early or later and there may be some cost in terms of, I don't know, custodial opening up. But those are the things I think we're going to have to look at, and particularly as we're running out of school buildings, we may have to go to that. Dr.

[0:46:34] Herman Aizawa: You're around school uh it's a wonderful concept, I think. Uh as you know, we built our former system on a very agri based system relative to you know, needing to have the children home to help harvest. Sure. But the whole idea of providing additional, I mean, a more year-round versus a long two and a half month break where there's a lot of regression relative to learning, is, you know, is an important issue. Now, it doesn't cost any more. All we're doing is splitting up the two and a half months over the entire year. So, there's no additional cost. It's a matter of the the community and of course the staff and the children getting uh

[0:46:34] Herman Aizawa: used to to it, but we have a lot of about five or six other schools who are really taking a hard look at it, and there will be probably two or three come on in September.

[0:47:20] Randall Roth: Okay. We have several callers on the line. The first is Ron from Maui. Ron, you're on the air.

[0:47:26] Caller (Ron): All right, good morning.

[0:47:26] Randall Roth: Good morning.

[0:47:27] Caller (Ron): Yeah, thanks a lot for a chance to talk to the top head of our school system. I'm a school counselor here on Maui. Uh Dr. Aizawa.

[0:47:37] Herman Aizawa: Yes.

[0:47:38] Caller (Ron): Yeah, and I really agree with your approach about comprehensive education, but one of the things that has really bothered me, you know, last two years is that I've been a Hystic test coordinator. Mhm. And 80 80 to to 85% of the kids pass with no problem. But I don't know if you're really familiar with the content of this particular test. Yes, I am. And I feel that the Hystic is a very very bias test, economically and culturally, you know for people who come from Tonga or the Philippines or from Korea, who are not familiar with the language.

[0:48:17] Randall Roth: Ron, let me get uh Herman's reaction to that.

[0:48:20] Herman Aizawa: Okay. Basically, uh if you have any particular concerns, we'd really like to hear it, you know, Ron because it's it's important as we look at uh Right. That my my main concern is the whole testing program, starting off with the Hystic and the standard of achievement test. Yeah. Okay, we can we can get into all of that um, you know, [unintelligible — audio glitch] basically what it is is any analysis of a test, of course we try to make it, you know, as non-biased as possible. And anybody who can point out areas that really reflect that, we'd be very happy to take a hard look at that. It is a standard English test. And I

[0:48:20] Herman Aizawa: understand, for example, we're not looking for how well a student in a second language be it French, Japanese, Tongan, Samoan and Filipino would be able to do in Filipino, Tongan, Samoan, Japanese or French. It is a standard English test and I, you know, the students need to be able to read, write, understand English and that's the purpose of the test. If it were just to look at how well a student is developing in a school, how well that student has developed his cognitive skills, then the approach could be different and you could have people use their native languages to express that.

[0:49:32] Caller (Ron): Okay, but what I like to say, Dr. Aizawa, the Hystic, in my opinion, is no way of gauging a Okay. And that's what I'm saying. If you have specific you interrupted me a few weeks, can you let me finish, please? Okay. Okay. The Hystic test in no way gauges to me a student success in later life like like you folks wanted to. I mean, if you want something to gauge how a student is going to perform later on, and we're talking about a public school where we have kids in special education all the way to kids go to MIT, you cannot have a test that cuts across all these different social economic stratifications, like you

[0:49:32] Caller (Ron): could maybe at a Punahou or the Alani where you can choose your students and public schools we can't choose our students. If you want to see a student succeed in life, I think you have to go to achievement oriented basis, not not testing kids to see if they're going to do well or not do well. Achievement means, I mean, we had kids, we have kids who come to school every day and they may not pass the Hystic so they don't get a high school diploma. Is this fair? I mean, what what you're doing with the test like the Hystic, you're knocking down kids who are doing their best and you have kids who come from

[0:49:32] Caller (Ron): upper middle class families who may come school half the year and pass this stick with no problem and get a high school diploma. What I'm saying in a public school, I I don't think you can have any test that can gauge all students. I think you have to go toward what their record is in class, you know? Are they coming to school? Are they doing their work? If they achieve and they're they're reading a third grade level to no fall at their own, and if they're achieving, they deserve a high school diploma unless you can have different kind of high school diplomas which we don't right now in the public school, we don't have different

[0:49:32] Caller (Ron): kind of high school diplomas.

[0:51:19] Randall Roth: Ron, I've got somebody else waiting and I need to get to them. I appreciate your call.

[0:51:23] Caller (Ron): Okay. All I'm all I'm trying to say is our legislatures and our educators they only try to gauge the success of schools through testing, right, through testing. [unintelligible — audio glitch] it's it's ridiculous.

[0:51:36] Randall Roth: I understand. Thank you, Ron. You know, one thing that Ron does raise, I know a few months ago there was something in the newspapers about a lot. It sounded like a lot of people wanting to lower standards so that we could work more on self-esteem. And uh I've got somebody who's been waiting patiently on the line for for quite a while, and I want to get to them, but but just real quickly, Karen, what's your reaction to the possibility of lowering standards so that the kids can have better self-esteem and and move on and whatever else it might be that they would do.

[0:52:07] Karen Knudsen: I I think our previous caller raises some points that people are talking about. He mentioned even though students might have a third grade um, you know, reading capability, they should still get a high school diploma. I can't buy that. I am very concerned that we are putting too much on self-esteem, and yet I can understand the feeling when you're working with children and they cannot do it for whatever reason, but I think we can't lower our standards. And uh I get very concerned about that. I talk with teachers and principals who, for instance, I just had a comment discussion with a principal the other day who because their library isn't open and the kids won't

[0:52:07] Karen Knudsen: go to the library on their own, they're taking the whole class once a week and because she says the students won't go on their own and they'll fail. And my idea, well, the consequence is if you don't fill fill your assignment, well, that's that's a consequence. But she says, but you're not there working with these kids every day and seeing that some of them can't do it unless we help them. So it's a dilemma, but I think we cannot. But Dr. Aizawa took the took quite a bit of heat on that self-esteem, so.

[0:53:05] Herman Aizawa: Right. And and basically I I mentioned something earlier about that and it essentially it's this. Help our students. This is my my my statement to my professional staff in the schools, the teachers and the principal. Help our students to be successful in that classroom and the self-esteem will skyrocket. Right. When students believe and can see that they are achieving, we don't need to have programs that work on self-esteem.

[0:53:31] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh, Desmond from Kaimuki has been waiting very patiently. Desmond, you're on the air.

[0:53:37] Caller (Desmond): Hello.

[0:53:38] Randall Roth: Is that Desmond Burn?

[0:53:39] Caller (Desmond): Right.

[0:53:40] Randall Roth: My old friend. What do you have to say for yourself?

[0:53:43] Caller (Desmond): Well, I always got a few things to say for myself. Um, my question is, the Nation at Risk came out 11 years ago and time has slipped by and what is a persistent question of mine to the board of education is where is the plan overall to get from here now to the system we really want to have say by the year 2000 so that we have a plan, it's spelled out and the results to be achieved are targeted for each year, so we can benchmark ourselves. Otherwise, I'm afraid, despite a lot of initiatives and things going on, the years will just slip by and blame will be apportioned to the legislature or whatever. But

[0:53:43] Caller (Desmond): there must be an an enormous sense of urgency with the national international competitiveness for our students and they have to be prepared to leave Hawaii and compete. So we must have a plan that by the year 2000, we will have raised the standards appreciably, but we must all be able to see this plan and hold everybody accountable for it.

[0:54:52] Randall Roth: Desmond, let me uh add just a thought to that and then ask Herman to respond to it. Uh Herman in in your vision statement, uh you mentioned that there's a Hawaii Commission on Performance Standards and that they were currently coming up with some of the sorts of things that Desmond was just referring to. How do you react to what Desmond is saying and and how does this Commission on Performance Standards fit in?

[0:55:16] Herman Aizawa: Hi Desmond. Hi Herman. How you doing? Good. Um, he comes to our board meetings every once in a while. It's like old old home week here. Um, basically uh we do have the Commission on Performance Standards and they have just finished, in fact the report is being printed right now, the uh content standards and performance standards for students. In there, they also talk about what they call system standards or what kinds of facilities, classroom, instructional materials, uh capabilities of principals and teachers that we need to have in order to hold our students accountable for their success in school. So it's not only identifying what students need to do, but what kind of things do we

[0:55:16] Herman Aizawa: set up to help that student learn. Uh, that's that's the beginning because when you look at wanting to be able to measure like Desmond is talking about, you need to know where you want it to go. And the content standards that the Commission has come up, which uh if the board approves and and goes through that process of approving that, would basically take the place of our foundation program, performance expectations and uh educational competencies. Those are similar kinds of things, but let me identify that. That's the start. What do we do in our schools to help our students get there is the middle portion, and then the assessment portion what Desmond is talking about, what

[0:55:16] Herman Aizawa: kind of indicators do we have that our students are getting there or not. That's important, that needs to be laid out, that's exactly what we're working on. And one important leg there is of course, as you know, is our goals 2000 planning funds [unintelligible — audio glitch] Hawaii received from Secretary Riley last week. It's the first state in this union because we were so energetic about it. We sent in our proposal and we were the first state to receive the dollars. We, I, we had the process of selecting from 400 applicants, one

[0:57:00] Randall Roth: 100 people to be on this panel that's going to work on this comprehensive plan that you've also talked about. And this panel then will begin starting work, once the governor and I review them and identify who specifically will be on.

[0:57:12] Randall Roth: How's that sound to you, Desmond?

[0:57:14] Caller (Desmond): Well, I look forward to reviewing a copy of this. This is not for my children, it's for my grandchildren.

[0:57:19] Randall Roth: Thank you, Desmond. Appreciate your call. Uh we have a number of people on the line and I'm going to go to them in in just a moment. Uh but I do want to mention that almost everyone that you talk to, who knows much about the school system seems to say that the principal is a terribly important person in in the equation. And Herman, I know you've been principal at Waimanalo and Barrington, Kaiser, Pearl City. You've been principal in a number of different schools. Um, what are your thoughts? Just again, real quickly, because we've got some folks on the line. But what are your thoughts about how we can strengthen that that particular position?

[0:57:54] Herman Aizawa: Um that, you know, that's absolutely right on the button, Randy. It's the principal as a leader makes such a difference that without the creative initiative showing leadership, it doesn't happen in the school. I don't care how well a group of teachers may want to do something or the total staff, without that that leadership from the principal, it doesn't happen. Somehow, we need to assure that the principals we place in our schools one, have the basic skills and then secondly, we need to continue to upgrade those. So, our Leadership Academy, our preparation of the University of Hawaii, we are working with those people need to focus on what kind of skills they need. For example, real

[0:57:54] Herman Aizawa: quickly, today, versus what happened in the past, we need more people who want to show the initiative, to bring parents and community people in. A principal cannot feel that he's going to or she's going to do it by himself. One very basic difference 20 years ago compared to today.

[0:58:53] Randall Roth: Karen, can you give us 10 seconds on your thoughts on the importance of the principal?

[0:58:56] Karen Knudsen: No, I think the principal is key to whether a school moves forward or just stalls. And I do think that we need to whatever they need in terms of negotiating skills or as things change, we need to be sure that we're supporting them and being quick to to identify the fact if they're not um comfortable or if they can't relate to that community, we need to offer options and then put somebody in there now because the parents and the community as Herman said are playing a bigger and bigger role.

[0:59:21] Randall Roth: Okay. We're in the last 5 minutes of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm here with State Department of Education uh Superintendent Herman Aizawa and a member of the State Board of Education Karen Knudsen. The first of our list of callers waiting is Warren from Nuuanu. Warren, you're on the air.

[0:59:37] Caller (Warren): Uh, good morning. Uh, I've heard a lot of discussion on discipline and principles, etcetera, etcetera. But nobody's talked about what the purpose of schools are. The purpose of schools is not to teach rote English or math or whatever. Yes, there are some basics but to think and I've heard no discussion of that. Let me give you an example.

[1:00:00] Randall Roth: Right, I thought that's exactly what Herman was saying.

[1:00:03] Caller (Warren): No, it's it's it's never rewarded in schools. As a former math teacher in the school here, I can tell you it's never rewarded. Rote memorization is these SAT tests. But how to approach a problem, how to do stuff, and that's precisely what businesses want.

[1:00:20] Randall Roth: That's exactly what Herman was saying but let me ask you Herman, how are you going to make it happen?

[1:00:24] Herman Aizawa: Well, as I said, through our success compact, we have a process of extensive teacher support, teacher preparation to help our teachers interact better with the students so they can focus on the reading, the writing, the comprehension, the thinking, uh looking at uh issues, looking at data, analyzing and synthesizing, and pulling everything together. You're right on the button. No question, thinking is the focus.

[1:00:48] Randall Roth: Warren, I think you and uh and Herman are kindred souls on this one.

[1:00:52] Caller (Warren): Well, um let me give you an example. I also happen to be a graduate student in UH, and I'm in a department that is predominantly foreign students. Uh this is a science department at UH, and the students that come in score very, very high on their tests. But once they get in a place where they have to perform research, where they have to think and so forth, they completely fall apart. And that's where the American students do so much better because we're doing Yankee ingenuity, and that's not being emphasized. That is the uh strength of the American system.

[1:01:28] Herman Aizawa: Well, we agree.

[1:01:29] Caller (Warren): Uh, ingenuity, and we're not emphasize that. We'll be just like any other school system that emphasizes memorization.

[1:01:38] Randall Roth: Thank you, Warren. You've got a couple of people here in the studio smiling. I think they're in agreement with you. Thank you very much. We have another caller, Frank from Makiki. I'm sorry, Frank. Go ahead.

[1:01:50] Caller (Frank): I just wanted to share this I I called before, but I wanted to first of all, say thank you to that wonderful principal at Kapalama during the '40s, early '40s, when I was there. She ran such a beautiful ship, that title that I uh that book called everything I learned I learned in grade school. It was like that. They were wonderful.

[1:02:12] Randall Roth: That's nice, Frank. Frank, can you give us a quick one? We got another caller we want to get to.

[1:02:16] Caller (Frank): I just wanted to share this. When I'm in the classrooms, I like to tell the kids your parents have a job to take care of you, and your job, you have a job and that job is to learn and we try to teach them how to do that.

[1:02:30] Randall Roth: Thank you very much, Frank. We have a caller from Maui, Rosemary. You're on the air.

[1:02:35] Caller (Rosemary): Good morning. Um I agree completely with what Karen was saying in regards to not lowering standards, but my concern comes with special ed children with the mainstreaming that I see going on. How can they go ahead and progress when they're in with kids they can't compete with? Thank you.

[1:02:52] Herman Aizawa: It's not a matter of competition, it's a matter of support. And I think if you look at the integrated model that we have where special ed students are working with uh with with if you must, regular students, there's no question the kind of interaction and learning and support and relationships and really, all students benefiting from it. Cognitively, academically and from a human connection standpoint, you can't go wrong.

[1:03:18] Randall Roth: You a special ed child may not be able to come up to the same academic standard depending upon what the special ed need is. Well, that's what I meant. I didn't mean competing in that sense, I meant how are they going to perform and how are they going to advance and get that high school degree.

[1:03:33] Herman Aizawa: Um do you know Do you know everything about cars? No. Okay. What if there were a team of us who were wanting to learn about cars? I mean know a little bit more about that. I could help you. That's the concept of integration, and I think it really is working beautifully. Our model that was developed in Hawaii is now being utilized in the East Coast because our person is there working with the school the school system over there. And I think it's uh you should take advantage of going and visiting the schools and seeing a place where that is actually taking place.

[1:04:03] Randall Roth: Rosemary, thank you very much for your call. We're out of time and um my guests this week were state Superintendent of Schools Herman Aizawa and State Board of Education member Karen Knutson. Karen is running for re-election for the Board of Education and anyone who's interested in more of her thoughts on the subject, I'm sure, are welcome to give her a call.

[1:04:24] Randall Roth: This week's show was produced by Suzy Roth with help on the phones from John Roth and technical assistance from Jeff Ailardi. Next week we'll be talking about welfare reform and a host of related issues. Our guests will be Winona Rubin, director of the State Department of Human Services, and Tess Holum, director of Hawaii Advocates for Children and Youth. I hope you'll tune in for what promises to be a lively exchange of ideas and concerns. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

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