Welfare Reform
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-07-24
Guests: Winona Rubin (Director, Hawaii Department of Human Services); Tess Holam (Executive Director, Hawaii Advocates for Children and Youth)
Duration: 1:08:35

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Good morning. This is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio show. Today's topic is human services in Hawaii, our community's attempt to provide a safety net for people in need. With me in the studio today are Winona Rubin and Tess Holam. Winona is director of the State Department of Human Services. This department, often referred to as DHS, is in charge of a host of social service programs. And Winona has been at the helm for seven and a half years. Tess is executive director of Hawaii Advocates for Children and Youth, sometimes called Haecy. It's an independent, non-profit organization, whose self-described mission is to speak on behalf of Hawaii's children.
[00:00:44] Randall Roth: I'm reading now from their mission statement, Haecy works to effect better public policy for children, to raise the visibility of children's issues, and to ensure that the health, safety, education, and basic needs of Hawaii's children are met. Tess, Winona, welcome to the Price of Paradise Radio Show.
[00:01:04] Winona Rubin: Good morning, Randy.
[00:01:05] Tess Holam: Thank you, Randy.
[00:01:06] Randall Roth: I know that the Department of Human Services does many, many things. But one of those things has to do with what many people call welfare. And I'm not sure that's the best term or not, I guess you can tell us about that. But during the campaign, Clinton talked often about ending welfare, as we know it, and currently, there are some proposals on the table to at least change welfare. Winona, what do you think about the notion that welfare does need to be changed? And, you know, any thoughts in general about Clinton's proposals?
[00:01:44] Winona Rubin: Number one, welfare does need to be changed. The old system did not provide for enough opportunities for individuals within the system, the clients in welfare, to have more opportunities for self-sufficiency. And the changes now are aimed toward giving the individuals within the system those opportunities. With the Family Support Act of 1988, it was a start. Jobs began through this particular legislation, and we have been building since then, in the state, in preparation for something like this, saying, let's try to address this area of self-sufficiency.
[00:02:19] Winona Rubin: What has happened now is that nationally, the move for welfare reform is saying, take job opportunities and move that in a substantial way into the system and make that the core of welfare.
[00:02:32] Randall Roth: So is it safe to say the biggest criticism of the system as it exists right now is that it doesn't really push the recipient toward getting a job? Instead, it simply gives that person a check.
[00:02:46] Winona Rubin: That's correct. That was formerly the major purpose. The individuals were given financial assistance, particularly on behalf of the children, naturally, within the system.
[00:02:56] Randall Roth: Now that you raise children, Tess, I read with some interest that I think two out of three people who are on Aid to Families with Dependent Children, AFDC, which I think is the primary welfare program, two out of three people are children. So when we talk about the welfare system is screwed up, most of the people affected by that are kids.
[00:03:21] Tess Holam: That's right, and that's why we're dealing with a pretty important subject because it's not only children today, but our future leaders and parents and teachers who will be taking care of us tomorrow.
[00:03:34] Randall Roth: And you would agree that welfare as we know it is in a bad shape.
[00:03:40] Tess Holam: I agree with Winona that we need to change it, and I'm excited that Clinton's plan talks about pushing forward job opportunities because welfare cannot be looked at in isolation from our economy. And we need to talk about not only job opportunities, but jobs that pay livable wages. A parent who has two children working at minimum wage is still living under poverty level, and that's unacceptable.
[00:04:06] Tess Holam: So when we talk about self-sufficiency, which I think every American probably supports, we need to talk about if you do work full-time, then you need to be able to support a family. And we're not talking about humongous families. The average size of a welfare family is just about two kids, which is just about as many as a non-welfare family has. So livable wages and also childcare.
[00:04:33] Randall Roth: How do we do this in an era of budgets that aren't going up and maybe even are coming down? Winona, I assume to do it differently is going to be at least as expensive as doing it the way we've done it in the past.
[00:04:51] Winona Rubin: Well, actually, it means that individuals within the system are going to have to change some of the functions, change the way that we're doing it. What we've had to do is to automate the system a little better than we have in the past. And that's happened, and that's in the process of being refined to the point that in fact, for the past few years, four years, we are number one in the nation for accuracy. For food stamps and in other programs as well, but food stamps, we get a million dollars from the federal government for that accuracy.
[00:05:31] Winona Rubin: And so, therefore, that automation that allows us and the workers to spend a little more time in addressing other things within the system, becoming a little more efficient in what we're doing. In the process, however, we're also addressing a number of other things that are changing within the system. As I mentioned, the need for jobs to be more effective, I think, and in addressing self-sufficiency for people, is also for people to become aware of some of those resources that are out there.
[00:06:05] Winona Rubin: And so, one of the steps that had been taken a little earlier was to join in partnership with the private sector and ask 2000. And so that information resource is readily available to everybody, and it takes, it had taken more time for the individuals to try to access the system to try to get the answers to the questions, and taking people's time away from what they were doing to help people. And now, that's being done outside the system.
[00:06:37] Tess Holam: And I think ask 2000 and other information referral sources are terrific. I agree with you, Winona. People have to know what is out there and outreach and public information is essential to folks getting what they need to support their children. However, even the Jobs program, which again, I'm excited about, you know, pushing work. I I think most people do want to work.
[00:07:02] Tess Holam: Even the Jobs program, however, was only funded at 11%. And so we're telling people, get out there and work, support yourself, you lazy folks. And then, and, and we know that you didn't get to finish high school or that the education you got didn't provide you with the with the skills that you're able to get out there and and earn an income that supports your family. So we're going to help you with job training so you can get out there and get self-sufficient. Oh, but we have a waiting list of hundreds of people because we didn't quite get the funding we needed to provide the job training.
[00:07:46] Tess Holam: In fact, only 11% of the people who wanted job training were able to be covered with the funding that was provided. And is that correct, or has it gotten any better in Hawaii?
[00:07:59] Winona Rubin: There's been a, there's been a national quota that there has to be at least 11% that's addressed within the waiting list. Here in Hawaii, there are approximately 8 to 10,000 people who are eligible for the Jobs work AFDC assistance. And we have then assisted about 3,500 to date. With the most recent legislative session, Jobs works is another facet of jobs that takes the individual practically right off the application form and says, if you're ready right now, we'll want to take you into some work experience types of things, etc.
[00:08:36] Winona Rubin: This will reduce your dependency on the system almost immediately. This will give you some work experience, but it certainly won't make you able to become self-sufficient. You'll need some more support from the system, but at least we we can help you with this, etc. And so 1,600 more of those people will be assisted coming with those resources. So a little at a time.
[00:09:01] Randall Roth: I want to read something from the Clinton Administration. It's describing welfare reform quote, reaching the next generation. It says, welfare reform will send a clear and unambiguous message to adolescents. You should not become a parent until you are able to provide for and nurture your child. Tess, to what extent are the problems with the current system a result of people too young to have children and not assuming responsibility for those children, having children?
[00:09:31] Tess Holam: Well, anytime teenagers are having children, I think that, you know, it's a problem. And the statistics are pretty clear, that in fact even in Hawaii of the 8,637 Hawaii families that began in 1990 with the birth of a first child, about 39% started out with one or more of the following reasons. The mother had not finished high school, was a teenager, or was single when her first baby was born.
[00:10:00] Tess Holam: Now the prospects for that mom being able to and dad being able to take care of that child are pretty gloomy, especially in times when our dollars are are having to be stretched further and further due to the decreasing buying power of our dollars in this economy. So I think teen pregnancy is a big problem. I fully support doing something about that. I think teaching abstinence is important. It's one part of it, unless if we follow our teenagers around and try to keep MTV turned off, and all the other messages that they're getting to go ahead and do it.
[00:10:41] Tess Holam: I think that we're going to have a problem with only a teaching abstinence kind of message, and I think we need to start talking about being reasonable and realistic about providing birth control to our kids. We only have three school-based health clinics in our state. And even those school-based health clinics are not all providing reproduction information and pregnancy prevention services to their students. Now, if we're telling students, don't do it, and if you do it, be safe, but yet we're not providing them the information and tools to be able to carry that out, that's just crazy.
[00:11:20] Tess Holam: It's the same craziness with our welfare argument. We're telling people don't have babies, but yet we're not willing to talk about public funding for abortion. You can have your baby and you can't, we're not going to pay you to support that child, but yet we're not going to pay you to also terminate if you have gotten pregnant and you are unable to support that child yourself. So all kinds of mixed messages come up with this whole discussion.
[00:11:52] Randall Roth: Winona, what do you think?
[00:11:54] Winona Rubin: Welfare reform in people's eyes, welfare reform is focused at welfare, the financial assistant client, etc. When actually welfare reform involves a composite of a number of different things that includes the Department of Health and its types of programs and preventions, the Department of Education, the Department of Human Services, the, you know, the a variety of agencies that can provide human service support to the people involved. With the Jobs program, there's a special relationship between the Jobs program and the Department of Education to provide jobs support to those who are teens, pregnant teens, who are young parents, who need to get back to school and finish their education.
[00:12:37] Winona Rubin: And we provide childcare for those individuals while that happens.
[00:12:41] Tess Holam: In a minimum of cases, I wouldn't you agree by knowing that these are still small projects in comparison to the problem state wide?
[00:12:51] Winona Rubin: Yes. I agree. I agree. Too little in the way of resources.
[00:12:55] Randall Roth: I want to get back to resources in a moment, but in case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. The topic is human services in Hawaii, and my guests are Winona Rubin, Director of the State Department of Human Services, and Tess Holam, Executive Director of Hawaii Advocates for Children and Youth. We are live and phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are invited to call collect. Again, the number, 955-8821.
[00:13:27] Randall Roth: Well, Winona, as I understand Clinton's proposals to quote, end welfare as we know it. Number one, he's going to try to keep the mother of a young child, a young mother of a new child, in school. Two, force her to identify the father, and then hold him responsible to help support that child.
[00:13:49] Tess Holam: Child support enforcement. That's right.
[00:13:50] Randall Roth: Third, that that young mother can't move out of her home and establish an independent lifestyle, that she has to either live at home or with a responsible adult. Fourth, that that mother immediately has to start working out some sort of work plan, some sort of goal of being employed within a two-year period of time. And if a job is offered, it has to be accepted.
[00:14:17] Tess Holam: Yes.
[00:14:17] Randall Roth: And generally speaking, cash benefits end within 24 months, quote, no matter what. What do you think? Is that a dramatic change from what we have now, and if so, why haven't we done it before now?
[00:14:32] Winona Rubin: It is a dramatic change in that the line initially was to be drawn without much flexibility to the states. The states are still provided some flexibility here, depending on individual circumstances. The normal time frame for individuals on dependency who need that extra help just to get back on their feet again and out into the society is about 24 months.
[00:14:56] Winona Rubin: And so, therefore, the two-year period is a fairly good average to use. However, it does take longer for some of the people to provide for enough attention to the barriers that they have, the additional problems, and other problems that they have to face and resolve before they can be effective out there in either getting training or being placed on the job. We're working with a client population in the Jobs program, for example, the majority of whom are, have come from abuse circumstances. And they have to deal with some of these resolving some of these problems and other mental health difficulties before they can even be effective in learning and in being effective on the job.
[00:15:43] Winona Rubin: So there are these kinds of things that will require a longer period of time, and so some flexibility is necessary.
[00:15:51] Tess Holam: I've been a social worker for over 15 years and I agree with what Winona just said, some of the clients and consumers that I've worked with in my past, including teenagers, certainly have a whole lot more challenges in their life that need to be dealt with before they can effectively support themselves in their children. However, again, I push us to think about so-called welfare reform in the face of our bigger society because a number of of of mothers are are out there with, you know, being single parents. We follow only Sweden in the world in having the second highest number of children born to unmarried mothers, and two-thirds of those mothers are not poor.
[00:16:38] Tess Holam: So we're talking about bigger questions here. What's happening to the American family? Our divorce rates? What is the father's role, the cost of living, again, the minimum wage that doesn't provide a livable wage? We're talking about, you know, single parenting, broken marriages, we're talking about a bigger picture. The welfare discussion mirrors what is happening in our society at large. And so I really push your listeners to think about this, not just what's happening with those people who are on welfare, but what's happening to our society.
[00:17:13] Randall Roth: Let's hear from some of those listeners. We have K from Honolulu online one. K, you're on the air.
[00:17:20] Caller: Yes, my husband and I are both retired. We do volunteer work constantly everyday. And there's one thing I do not understand. And that is neighbors who have two and three children, teenagers with babies, I just can't feel that I'm responsible to support those children. When I was growing up, if a daughter got pregnant, the parents took care of it. But today it's just wide open. I agree with the last lady. Thank you.
[00:17:50] Randall Roth: I guess a question is if if no one is taking responsibility, someone should. If no one is, then I guess
[00:17:58] Caller: When World War II was over and mothers went to work, children went wild. I'll always feel that way. And in today it's that's they got too much time, there's nobody at home. And I just don't understand why I should have to pay for all these new babies that are coming into the world.
[00:18:20] Randall Roth: Winona, what do you say to K?
[00:18:22] Winona Rubin: It's very difficult to respond knowing some of the individual cases that we have to deal with. But certainly the general public should not be paying for the individuals and the families who are maybe irresponsible in some of the decisions that they're making. This is not the general situation, however, for those who are on assistance for us. The single parents that we're dealing with, if you can see that they are with us only for a short period of time. The single parents and their children, which are probably two two children, for are each of the single parents. They're with us for about 24 months or less than two years in many instances.
[00:19:09] Winona Rubin: they're needing child care assistance just to get their feet on the ground. They're needing some medical care to assist them for the period of time that they're starting their work and their job. And those are the primary people. The majority of the people within the system are those people who have somehow for whatever kinds of circumstances been thrust into a situation of eviction or other kinds of circumstances that have tossed them out there into dependency. There are other situations that we're still dealing with, and we're finding the effects of the jobs program dealing with the next generation and the next generation and reducing the multiple generational effects of this.
[00:20:04] Randall Roth: Tess, do you have some thoughts?
[00:20:06] Tess Holam: I don't know. Yes, I do. I I I really hear what you're saying, and sometimes those thoughts cross my mind as well. I I do know too though that when we talk about dependency or we talk about taxpayers having to support other people, we need to remember again the bigger picture. The biggest ways, the biggest programs that taxpayers are supporting are Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the federal retirement system for civilian and military personnel. We just read about this in last week's star bulletin, and what we found out is that the average retiree is getting far more money back than they ever paid in, an average of $40,000 more.
[00:21:01] Tess Holam: So when we talk about taxpayers supporting other people, we need to always remember the bigger picture. It's not just children born to teenage moms or people on public assistance, but we're talking about all the other tax-supported programs where people are getting back more than they paid in.
[00:21:24] Randall Roth: Okay, thank you for your call.
[00:21:27] Caller: Thank you.
[00:21:28] Randall Roth: We have another caller Dolly from Moiliili. Dolly, you're on the air.
[00:21:33] Caller: Yes, thank you. Good morning. I'm enjoying your program. I I applaud President Clinton's efforts in the welfare reform area. I do believe though that the minimum wage has to be increased before we start setting up mandates of putting people out off cutting them off after two years. There have to be jobs and there have to be better paying jobs. Do you have any, have you heard of any efforts to get the minimum wage increased?
[00:22:10] Randall Roth: Well, and along those lines Winona, from what I have read, if somebody on welfare goes out, gets a job at minimum wage, they're really not improving their situation at all because of the cutbacks in in their welfare checks. Could you respond to Dolly's comment and and mind you.
[00:22:34] Winona Rubin: Under the Welfare Reform Act, there will be an opportunity for that person to retain more of what they earn than currently has been allowed. Some states have been initiating waivers with the federal government to allow that to happen. That will no longer have to require a waiver by the state to allow for more to be earned by the people who are on welfare so that they can finally move off the rolls by retaining a little bit more rather than having it taken away from them. The Welfare Reform Act will allow the flexibility as an option rather than a waiver.
[00:23:24] Randall Roth: But doesn't that make it more expensive?
[00:23:27] Winona Rubin: No, it it will not do so. The earned income tax credit is a means of offsetting some of the the costs to the the federal government because they will allow for a minimum of $6.
[00:23:44] Caller: Thank you.
[00:23:45] Randall Roth: Thank you. We have another caller, Maria from Molokai. Maria, you're on the air.
[00:23:52] Caller: Maria Hughes from Molokai. I would like to make a suggestion. I'm enjoying your programs very much all the time. I have been among my other careers, a social worker for 15 years, and I I can understand some of the problems and the way they're being addressed. However, a few months ago, a very reliable source told me that the major ambition of a high school graduate of one of the high school graduates of Molokai High, when she was asked what she wanted to do, she says, I want to get out of school, I want to have two kids, and go on welfare.
[00:24:42] Caller: So my thinking is, is there something that we can do in the terms of using the media more effectively, so that this type of a situation is not encouraged?
[00:24:56] Randall Roth: We'll ask Tess Holum to respond to that, Maria.
[00:25:01] Caller: Thank you.
[00:25:01] Tess Holam: Well, hopefully that one Molokai student is the exception rather than the rule with our graduating seniors.
[00:25:10] Caller: Excuse me, but I think that that that one person is maybe saying something for a lot of other people, you know?
[00:25:20] Tess Holam: I don't know. I haven't seen any studies to that effect, Maria, but I do know that when an 18-year-old aspires to that ambition in life, something's wrong. I don't know what went wrong, but I do know that we need to be providing our children with education and and dreams and the opportunities to believe that life is beyond a welfare check, so that we don't have seniors making those kinds of statements. I I I just, uh, I'm amazed.
[00:25:58] Randall Roth: Let's see what Winona has to say.
[00:26:02] Winona Rubin: When we, um, for many years, we've been the we have been criticized in welfare for saying that people, for generations, would continue to be on welfare and expect to be on welfare, and there would be people expecting to be dependent on the system. And so when jobs was implemented, we initially opened it up to because it was going to be a required program. We initially opened it up as a voluntary thing and we tested the system and 80% of the people who stepped forward out of the client population were volunteers. They wanted to be off of welfare.
[00:26:50] Randall Roth: So the problem has been a lack of funding as opposed to a lack of interest by the recipient.
[00:26:59] Winona Rubin: So the people do not want to be on welfare. It's the in that particular instance, I would say, the individual has not had the opportunity to know what options they have.
[00:27:14] Caller: Well, perhaps there's a big segment of the population that is is in that same situation and I'm thinking with the media, the way it's used for so many things could perhaps more effectively be used to let people know that there are there are other options.
[00:27:37] Winona Rubin: They are other options. That's right.
[00:27:40] Caller: That's all I'm thinking is using the media for that.
[00:27:44] Randall Roth: Thank you, Maria. We have another caller Frank from Honolulu. Frank, you're on the air.
[00:27:52] Caller: Morning.
[00:27:52] Randall Roth: Good morning.
[00:27:53] Caller: in some of the schools I've been there, the kids have the social studies units where they uh they they carry around a five-pound sack of flour all day and they get penalties if they lose that sack to to give them the idea of what it's like to be saddled with a baby. And then they need to have the budget of what. Tell him it ought to be a 10 pound sack and it ought to be screaming at the kids.
[00:28:32] Caller: Yeah, right. And then and then And wet. And wet. And and smelly. And then some of the uh but and then the budget items like the hospital bills, the cost of the diapers, the food, etcetera, etcetera. They all have to know that. I wonder how much of this program is taught in generally in the education system. That would be a good idea.
[00:29:03] Randall Roth: I'm wondering Let me Let me ask Winona. Do you know Winona, whether this is common or or if this is some renegade teacher that has taught up this genius plan?
[00:29:18] Winona Rubin: I don't think this is a common type of program in the in the Department of Education.
[00:29:26] Caller: This was Roosevelt I was talking about. And then I'm wondering uh when when when the mothers do, when unwed mothers do have the kids, I know that maybe a lot of them are not well trained to be mothers. Part of the trade their training could be maybe of course, child care, uh uh proper child care. And maybe these mothers could be given the chance to participate in a child care program.
[00:30:01] Winona Rubin: And I think that's the attempt that is being made.
[00:30:06] Caller: That's great.
[00:30:07] Winona Rubin: uh, when when we fashioned the jobs program, we delayed about a year in the process of developing it with about 200 people statewide public and private sector planning it. Uh was different from this nationally because we wanted it to be different, and in that process this was done that uh, the program is not only from the perspective of the Department of Human Services, we include the Department of Health, the public health nurses, as well as the employment services involved there.
[00:30:47] Winona Rubin: And so the health of the family and the the training of the individuals, including the members of the family, not always the mother that's on welfare, but the teenagers and the other members of the family takes place.
[00:31:05] Caller: One one more thought please. Uh then it seems to me that when when the girl says, okay, you know, I'm going to I'm up high. I think that there's a, you know, a lot of the mothers, their mothers, the the grandmothers to be, have this mixed message that oh, god, what's happening. And on the other hand, oh, this baby is coming into our lives, how wonderful. You know, it's really mixed. When you're faced with that gorgeous little baby, who can resist it? So there's that mixed message. I'll hang up now, but thank you for your program.
[00:31:53] Tess Holam: Well, I'd agree Frank there are all kinds of mixed messages with uh, giving birth and raising children in our society. I did want to get back to your comment about some innovative programs and there are just a handful of programs going on in a few high schools. I know that Kaimuki High School and I believe Farrington, if you know any others, yeah, where the new parents can bring their children to school where they receive child care, the parent does participate in some education classes on child care in addition to completing their academic courses so they can graduate.
[00:32:42] Tess Holam: They have a better shot at earning an income that will support their their young family and they are learning some child care uh skills and techniques. So again, a handful of programs, there are a number of innovative ideas going on and a handful of programs happening but we need these to spread more. And it will take more money just like Clinton's welfare reform plan will take more money to mean to really provide jobs and opportunities for people to attain self-sufficiency.
[00:33:22] Randall Roth: I'm Randy. My guests are Winona Rubin and Tess Holum. Winona is director of the State Department of Human Services, and Tess is executive director of Hawaii Advocates for Children and Youth. We're talking about the safety net that our community has erected in an attempt to catch people, including children, who for some reason are in need of help. Some folks say the existing net is too high or too comfortable or simply unaffordable. Others feel the opposite is true and point with alarm to gaping holes in the net. Listeners are invited to join in the conversation, just call 9558821 if you would like to ask a question or make a comment. That number again is 9558821.
[00:34:18] Randall Roth: Well, is welfare overly generous? And Winona, I say that with tongue in cheek because I know you you feel that it it isn't. But it's my understanding that at least relative to the levels of welfare in other states, Hawaii is indeed generous, again, relatively speaking. Is that true?
[00:34:42] Winona Rubin: Um in comparison to the other states, that's correct.
[00:34:46] Randall Roth: Is that a problem in terms of people coming to Hawaii because of our welfare system or is that just a myth?
[00:34:57] Winona Rubin: No, that is a myth. Um I think studies have taken place um across the country into determine whether there is mobility of the welfare population from one state to the other to chase the better paying states. And uh uh number one, the studies have indicated no, there is not that kind of mobility. And secondly, the most recent uh kind of uh feedback and information uh on this particular area indicates that uh even though we are fairly high and I think we are second to Alaska in providing for services, the resources to to families in comparison with other states, and we used to be about number four.
[00:35:49] Winona Rubin: Um the number of people coming in versus the number of people going out, there's a tremendous number of people going out rather than in to this system.
[00:36:03] Randall Roth: I know we've had a welfare freeze in in Hawaii, and so if if we're getting more and more generous compared to other states, they must be giving less each year as opposed to uh our giving more.
[00:36:21] Winona Rubin: That's exactly right.
[00:36:22] Tess Holam: That's right, because our welfare benefits, as you mentioned, Randy, were frozen at the 1993 level, so there is no longer an automatic cost of living increase as had been authorized by state law. Um I I agree with Winona. There isn't this premeditated part uh that poor folks are chasing around the highest benefits and they'll go live in that state or that even poor folks think about uh wow, if I have one more child, I'll get $74 more a month.
[00:37:02] Tess Holam: In fact, I don't think there's a lot of premeditation going on at all, especially with our teenagers about how much more money they would have if they had babies on welfare. And we really need to quick kidding ourselves that that's happening. I do want to point out an important part of of welfare though, that sometimes we forget in this whole argument. And that is, the state of Hawaii, correct me if I'm wrong, Winona, does receive a 50% um influx of federal dollars uh for the welfare payments that it makes. Is that right? So for every dollar that the state of Hawaii's Hawaii's taxpayers spend on welfare, the federal government adds another dollar.
[00:37:57] Tess Holam: Okay, so That's right. So
[00:38:00] Winona Rubin: Actually, our public assistance program brings in more federal dollars to the state of Hawaii. And it also provides a tremendous number of jobs to a lot of people. If we were to ever do away with our uh public assistance program, I can guarantee you that there's going to be tremendous amounts of unemployment in addition to the all the misery that will be created with with young families who who need some assistance at the time. Uh in addition to a tremendous decrease in federal dollars from uh our federal government, that does give Hawaii additional money for providing assistance.
[00:38:36] Randall Roth: I want to come back to your point on jobs that might be lost. In just a moment, we have several callers on the line. First, Bobby from Makiki. Bobby, you're on the air.
[00:38:48] Caller: Thank you. Uh question. How can you discourage welfare mothers from getting pregnant while on welfare? Sometimes you have the feeling, as you've just said, the more babies, the more money.
[00:38:59] Winona Rubin: Well, Winona, I know part of Clinton's proposals is that the state would have the ability to say you have another baby, you aren't going to get any more money. In fact, I think you would have the flexibility to say you'll get less money if you have another baby. There is that uh option for the states uh forthcoming with this uh well, new welfare. Do you think Do you think that would influence the behavior of that young mother?
[00:39:27] Winona Rubin: I I would um I would say that the state should um take that as a very last resort uh of action. The action that we are taking now and that we are asking for the the individuals to take a a positive uh forward step in in planning for their future becoming self-sufficient is a much much better um step for the individuals to move out of the system and on their own and uh and take care of their own needs, etc. And so uh uh we're strongly supporting this jobs program and all the facets thereof.
[00:40:02] Tess Holam: We we see uh mothers on welfare with four children, one, two, three and four and that gives the impression that not too much is being done to not just to encourage them to get jobs or improve their lot, etc. But they have got to stop having more babies, period.
[00:40:20] Randall Roth: Let's ask Tess Holm about that. And and Tess, is there a point where society simply takes the baby from that mother? I mean, what do we do if if a young mother continues to have babies when that person doesn't have the ability to to take care of them?
[00:40:38] Tess Holam: Well, that's a a million dollar question, isn't it, Winona? I don't think um unless if we're going to talk about all kinds of court challenges that we'd be able to remove babies from their moms because their mom had too many and couldn't afford them. Uh luckily that again is the exception. Most welfare families have two children or less and I want to repeat that.
[00:41:02] Tess Holam: But I I do think yes, we need to give the message, don't keep having kids if you can't afford them. I think that's a valid message to do and I do think if we're going to give that message again, we need to provide them with the information and and technology such as birth control to be able to accomplish that. And also, we need to start looking at why do children or teenagers aspire to having baby after baby after baby? What's missing from their lives? And if we are not providing them with uh opportunities to where they see something beyond uh having children and and living on welfare, then something's wrong.
[00:41:43] Tess Holam: Yes. Thank you very, very much.
[00:41:45] Randall Roth: Thank you, Bobby. Bye-bye. You know, Tess, we we nobody wants to punish the children, but if there is a young mother who just keeps having child after child, and you don't want to punish the children, how do you deal with that?
[00:42:00] Tess Holam: Again, that's the exception and it it's a tough one. Uh you know, different states have experi you cannot force a mother, for instance, to have a Norplant, which is the birth control that you put in the in the upper arm that provides um pregnancy prevention for many, many months. Uh you can encourage that, you can make it available. You need to make it available free of charge because if they're poor, that means they don't have money, so they can't afford the several hundred dollars that this cost. So we need to balance what we're expecting with the tools to get there to these poor folks who are making those decisions, which I want to reiterate is the exception rather than the rule.
[00:42:45] Randall Roth: Right, right. We have another caller, uh Bert from Kaneohe. Bert, you're on the air.
[00:42:50] Caller: Uh good morning, everybody. Good morning. I've just got a couple of comments and uh I used to be with the military. I'm retired now but uh the five pound bag of flower, right. Well, that's uh that's pretty prevalent throughout the Department of Defense schools. Uh that's something they do. They dress it up like a uh whole doll. They make the boys and they make the girls carry it around all day and they it's something that everybody dreads. And when I came over here, I also saw the same thing in castle, so I think uh maybe y'all need to get out there. Take a look at what's going on out there.
[00:43:31] Randall Roth: Okay. The second point was is that uh if you've ever been to the nurses office in in schools and I've been several times pick up my son, it seems to be a uh a young girls pregnant support group because that's where they all hang out. So, this was and this wasn't seniors, this was freshman through senior.
[00:43:52] Caller: And that's where they seemed to spend most of their time at school was was in the nurse's office. I don't know if it was just to, I I know they weren't sick because they were they were, you know, joking and laughing. I think it was it was how they planned to spend their not their summer vacation but [unintelligible — audio glitch] education. So that's that that's a real problem there. I guess that the you know, it's it's awkward for them in the class and uh that's how they seem to to decide that they were going to spend their however much longer they had in school was in the nurse's office. Okay.
[00:44:32] Randall Roth: Thank you, Bert. Um, I want to ask Tess about that, but first another caller had called in and just left a message and I'm, I'm reading it. It says an intermediate teacher agreed with the comments that teens are interested in starting a family and going on welfare. And intermediate teachers, those are pretty young kids, I guess, uh that that she would be talking about. Tess, do you have a, a a comment either on that or on Bert's comments earlier?
[00:45:02] Tess Holam: Regarding the Bert's comments, let me say that there used to be a program near Diamond Head where uh pregnant teens could go where they would complete their school years during their pregnancy and would not be in the public school system uh with the all the other students and that was shut down and I think that was unfortunate because there are some teenage moms who are going to hang out in the nurse's office because they are embarrassed or ashamed or don't know what to do. So, they seek comfort with other teenagers in their situation. So, I think it's unfortunate when we reduce the options to these teens.
[00:45:41] Tess Holam: Secondly, regarding the intermediate teacher's question, I I hope that you and your fellow teachers talk about these things and brainstorm and push and advocate within the public school system. What can we do so that our 14 and 15 year olds are not thinking this, because there is a problem when we have children that young aspiring to those kinds of goals. Something is wrong.
[00:46:04] Winona Rubin: And if um the individual uh the youngster is coming from a welfare family, and if the parent is not involved with jobs, then they uh there has to be that kind of uh attention provided from the school to the jobs people to let them know because there is a decided change of entire attitude of not only the individual but family toward remaining independency. In fact, looking for self-sufficiency when they enter jobs.
[00:46:31] Randall Roth: In case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show and the topic is Human Services in Hawaii. My guests are Winona Rubin, director of the State Department of Human Services, and Tess Holm, executive director of Hawaii Advocates for Children and Youth. We're live and the phone lines are open. The number, 9558821.
[00:46:51] Randall Roth: Winona, I'm looking at a copy from the June 14th Honolulu Advertiser where the headline is State workers up 41% in Hawaii Era. And I go down the list here and it shows the governor's office up 175%, attorney general's office up 104%, etc., etc. But son of a gun, there's one department that not only isn't up, it's down 24%. Human Services. Is that accurate?
[00:47:15] Winona Rubin: Um, unfortunately, when I first came into the department and the consultants made a review of um the number of people that were needed by the department to provide for uh satisfactory services in Human Services, they told us we needed 1900 more workers. And uh, of course, we certainly couldn't add 1,900 workers just for the human Department of Human Services. We did ask the legislature for uh more workers though, and we did get I think a couple hundred workers.
[00:47:44] Randall Roth: So this is wrong when it says you've come down 24% over eight years?
[00:47:49] Winona Rubin: Thereafter, however, and during the intervening years, we have lost workers. We have not retained um many workers and over the past few years, we have been asked to reduce force uh the number of workers on uh in each of the departments. We've asked to to trim the number of workers and the legislature has reduced the number of workers that we've had if there are vacancies. And so when we've had vacancies, those have been eliminated. And based on that, yes, we have been reduced in the number of uh positions.
[00:48:22] Randall Roth: So our our community has not really been supporting Human Services, at least as measured by that.
[00:48:28] Tess Holam: Well, we're not only losing personnel, we're losing programs. Uh, just last week, uh on July 18th, we heard about how Holly Keepa shelter in Manoa for uh runaway kids, for kids who have been abused and have no place to go on an emergency basis, was shut down. And prior to that, they were turning away 35 kids a month, and now we shut down another program, this emergency shelter, due to the cuts that have been made at the Department of Human Services. It's unacceptable. We are really making some statements here, whether we know it or not, that kids don't really matter. And I think that the shrunken Department of Human Services budget, Holly Keepa emergency shelter being shut down, kids across the street, I understand Kona is in terrible shape with their children's protective services kinds of kids having to live out on the street. I think that we need to wake up here because we are bringing up a whole generation of of many children who are going to end up in prison or on dependency programs or who are going to be lost.
[00:49:35] Randall Roth: So when when we say welfare, a lot of times, I think people like me picture some able-bodied person that ought to get a job like the rest of us. But the reality is that the vast majority of people affected by welfare are the kids.
[00:49:51] Tess Holam: Oh, 67% of the people in Hawaii are children on welfare.
[00:49:55] Randall Roth: Okay. We have several callers on the line and and the note on one says, in a hurry. So we'll go straight to Colleen. Colleen in uh Kailua.
[00:50:05] Caller: Hi, thank you very much.
[00:50:07] Randall Roth: You bet.
[00:50:07] Caller: I'm just pleased to uh run across this program.
[00:50:10] Randall Roth: Great.
[00:50:11] Caller: Uh, I just feel very strongly that if we continue, this is not just Hawaii but nationwide, subsidizing teenage to have babies, we will just get more of the same and that's what we have now. We have like an epidemic of teenagers having babies and feeling that it's a worthwhile vocation.
[00:50:29] Randall Roth: Yeah. Yeah, earlier I was going down a list or a summary of some of the things in the Clinton proposal to change welfare quote, as we know it, and among other things, those kids would have to stay in school. They would have to identify the father. They'd have to continue to live at home or with a responsible adult. They'd have to start working toward getting a job and Winona was saying earlier that she's very much in support of of all of that.
[00:51:00] Tess Holam: Absolutely. Uh, and the comment of another caller about the pregnant girl staying in the nurse's office, I mean I cannot even understand that. If these girls are not in the classroom, they should be sent home.
[00:51:13] Randall Roth: Okay.
[00:51:13] Tess Holam: They're not certainly not getting an education sitting in the nurse's office, telling jokes and, you know, just just having fun.
[00:51:21] Randall Roth: Colleen, thank you very much for your call.
[00:51:23] Caller: Okay. Thank you.
[00:51:24] Randall Roth: You bet. We're in the we're in the last 10 minutes of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're live. Phone lines are open. 9558821. We have several callers both from Kaneohe. Let's go to Eva first. Eva, you're on the air.
[00:51:39] Caller: Yeah, hello. I just would like to hear some words about the cause of the pregnancy which is very much the boys also. I don't hear anything about pregnancy
[00:51:50] Randall Roth: Amen. Thank you, Eva. In fact, when I was talking to Tess earlier, she said that this welfare thing had become a female thing. Could you tell us a little bit about that and maybe respond to Eva's comment?
[00:52:03] Tess Holam: Well, I think um the female thing is that most the families of course uh who are on public assistance are headed by women, single mothers with their children and that those women came to public assistance either through divorce, unmarried parenthood, or widowhood. And so when we talk about welfare, we're really talking about women and children for the most part. And Winona is shaking her head here. She agrees with me. So I uh that's why I say it's become a female thing and it's a women's issue, not just a kid's issue.
[00:52:37] Randall Roth: You know, in fact something in Tess's organization's newsletter that I read that that shocked me, that when a when marriage break up according to this newsletter, that the mother and kids three out of four times will tumble below the poverty line as opposed to that as a as a result of that marriage breaking up.
[00:52:57] Tess Holam: And the statistics have also demonstrated, I don't have the numbers off the top of my head right now, that the uh departing father's um lifestyle eventually is more lucrative than when he was uh in that family unit. So I think the child care support uh provisions in Clinton's plan are good. I am happy that our own child support enforcement is improving here in Hawaii. We're still only at 70%. However, that needs to you know, that is better than what it used to be and I look forward to it getting even better. And I think the role of the father, not only within poor families but across the board in our country, again needs to be looked at and what are we expecting as a society from fathers.
[00:53:44] Randall Roth: Okay. Eva, thank you very much for your call.
[00:53:47] Caller: Uh thank you very much. And there is another thing also that's the economy as a whole which maybe need to be looked at, but that may be a big question. Thank you very much.
[00:54:00] Randall Roth: That's a big one. We've got some more people on the line. Very quickly, we'll go to Julie in Kaneohe. Julie, you're on the air.
[00:54:08] Caller: Uh yes, I wanted to bring up the question about automobile insurance which was canceled for Can I bring that up? Go ahead. Well, we're next week show is on automobile insurance.
[00:54:20] Randall Roth: Oh, I see. So I just want to know if there's any way they can do part payment or you'd you'd rather discuss it next week?
[00:54:29] Caller: You bet. Julie, we're going to have some guests that can answer that question. Thank you very much.
[00:54:35] Randall Roth: Bye. We have Janine from Kaneohe. Janine, you're on the air.
[00:54:39] Caller: Yes, I was just wondering I'm just concerned about what we invest in in general in terms of our our welfare programs, etc. And I think that what's happening now is we're really going to be, I guess, putting less money into human services, it sounds like in general.
[00:54:57] Randall Roth: Well, we have been putting less. And we have been doing that on a consistent level and when I look at that and juxtapose that against the um what should I say, the bigger picture and I see that we invest in um you know, that basically we we bail out banks and we do things like that, which with bigger price tags. And um, I think that we're making poor choices and I think that we need to make more more choices towards human welfare as opposed to bailing out other issues like banks.
[00:55:30] Randall Roth: Our our guests are smiling. I think they agree with you. I've got several other callers on the line and there are only six minutes to go, so Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Very quickly to Lee in Kailua. Lee, you're on the air.
[00:55:47] Caller: Thank you. Um, in reference to the last caller, just one comment. Um, unfortunately, the clients of uh the Department of Human Services aren't uh well-represented at the polls and I think that's why you don't see the legislature being more responsive to the human services needs. But um, my question uh, it's really a difficult question to answer, but it's been hinted at on the program today. Um, what do you do about pop culture? When pop culture promotes promiscuity, when pop culture, like MTV promotes gangster rap, where the values of probably the underclass are being increasingly transferred to the general pop culture, which our kids are all immersed in. It seems like um in the old days um the values you heard in songs on top 40 radio were um considerably different than they are now where you have Snoop Doggy Dogg and all of these performers uh that you can hardly turn on the radio without uh catching them. Um the idea that a job uh is a dead end job if it doesn't pay white collar wages, so it's beneath uh most kids are even kids in their 20s to take these kinds of jobs. It's a whole uh milieu.
[00:57:00] Caller: pop culture that seems to reinforce this on TV and radio and very difficult for kids to get away from that or to fight it.
[00:57:19] Randall Roth: Lee, both of our guests here in the studio are nodding agreement. I appreciate your call.
[00:57:32] Caller: Thanks.
[00:57:32] Randall Roth: We have another caller, Laura from Aiea. Laura, you're on the air.
[00:57:42] Caller: Yes, I just read in the that's outrageous article in the Reader's Digest and I was very disturbed that with the baby boom article that Hawaii is one of the states which help the make payments Medicaid program that pay for welfare mothers to receive fertility drugs and that seems absurd.
[00:58:22] Randall Roth: By fertility drugs, drugs to help the mother have multiple births? Winona, what I know there was a flap about that a while back. Can you tell us what's going on?
[00:58:46] Winona Rubin: Yeah, uh, Hawaii does have um, um, Medicaid um payments that are allowed for fertility drugs, but that's not to have children. Uh, fertility drugs uh approval is usually given for those people who have difficulty or having some kind of female difficulties, etc. Um and the the drugs do then are used for those purposes, but not to uh assist in the young uh in the in the person having a child.
[00:59:43] Randall Roth: I see. So, if if someone said I want to have a child, I'm having trouble, DHS would not provide fertility drugs?
[01:00:00] Winona Rubin: Normally, that's not the primary purpose for the fertility drugs being approved in uh in Medicaid. And so it's uh it's very distorted uh uh picture that people have of uh are approving through Medicaid. Thank you, Laura.
[01:00:30] Randall Roth: Thank you. I've got two more things that I want to get done in in the few minutes that we have left. Uh one, Winona, somebody faxed in a question. It says, I'd like to hear your opinion on how the press handled your budget controversy earlier this year. Did they treat you fairly? And just so folks um know, by budget controversy, evidently it was pointed out that some funds from one category were being spent in another category and a number of things were written and and said about it. What what your you know, how would you describe that situation?
[01:01:50] Winona Rubin: Um it's difficult for the press to properly cover anything. Ooh, with a balance because naturally they're interested in headlines.
[01:02:06] Randall Roth: What what what really happened and what's being done about it?
[01:02:15] Winona Rubin: Uh we we did because the um the the department needed additional funds. Um we went to the legislature for additional funds to finish the year. The additional funds were not available to us in time for us to be able to make the final payment in the quarter. And so, in order to do that, we had to pull from every every area where we had extra monies, and in order to do that make the transfers from uh um all sorts of places where normally this is not done. And so, this is what was done in that particular instance.
[01:03:34] Randall Roth: Do you regret having done it?
[01:03:39] Winona Rubin: No, because uh we got the uh payment checks to the families and the children, particularly and on a timely basis and that was important. An additional thing uh there was a query raised by the auditor about transfer of some federal funds. Uh there were no transfers of federal funds. There are non-general funds that come into us and uh there were $20 million as was uh cited, etc. The non-federal funds by statute I have um the authority to transfer.
[01:04:43] Randall Roth: All right. We just have one minute left, actually less than a minute. Tess, you want to give us a little plug with respect to your organization and some activities that it has planned?
[01:05:10] Tess Holam: Oh, Advocates for Children and Youth is a citizen-based program uh organization and we are You get lots of money from the government? No gut money from the government. In fact, our bylaws forbid that. So we retain our independence and have no conflicts of interest in being able to speak out for the children in Hawaii. So, I hope that you'll give us a call at 521-5986. We're also putting on a for community campaign forum. The gentleman who called earlier was correct. We need to have more people, more voters concerned about what's happening to children and expressing that commitment to kids by voting in November. The make kids count in 94 Community Forum campaign is happening across the state. Uh I'm sorry, across the state, uh not across the street, but we hope you'll give us a call 521-5986 if you would like to participate in making kids count in 94 with this next election.
[01:07:13] Randall Roth: Thank you, Tess, and thank you, Winona. My guests have been Winona Rubin, Director of the State Department of Human Services, and Tess Holm, Executive Director of Hawaii Advocates for Children. Today's show was produced by Susie Roth, with help on the phones from Wally and Tom Roth and Jenny Tanji. Technical support from Jeff Ilarte. Tune in next week when our guests will tell us why car insurance is so expensive and how come so many uninsured cars are on the road. It's sure to be interesting and informative. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.