Conversation with Bob Jones
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-01-15
Guests: Bob Jones (former KGMB news anchor)
Duration: 1:08:08

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: January 15th, 1995. My name is Randy Roth and this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. For the next hour you can sit back and listen to a discussion of issues that are shaping the future of Hawaii, or you can participate in that discussion by calling in a question or comment. The number to call is 955-8821. Neighbor islanders are invited to call collect. With me in the studio this morning is veteran journalist Bob Jones. Bob Jones I think is remembered mostly as the news anchor at KGMB Channel 9, but he, and I, Bob I have to put this in quotes, he retired last year, and I need to find out a little bit more about

[00:00:46] Randall Roth: that. Uh why don't you tell us just real quickly what else you've done besides the Channel 9 news anchor here in Hawaii?

[00:00:46] Bob Jones: Well, first of all I want to tell you that I did not retire. I have to keep correcting that uh thing and it keeps showing up in the paper. I simply uh uh resigned from uh KGMB and I don't think I've retired from the world at all yet. Um, actually, I guess most of my life uh, quite by accident, uh is in, has been in journalism. It wasn't what I intended, I went to law school and I was going to be one of the great uh Latter-day uh Clarence Darrow's. Um, it just didn't work out that way. I went to work for a newspaper while I was in school, uh the St. Petersburg Times, and

[00:01:23] Bob Jones: I really just never got away.

[00:01:23] Bob Jones: After that um, I worked for a couple of papers in Europe. I eventually came to the Honolulu Advertiser, from there to KGMB, from KGMB to NBC News as a foreign correspondent twice and uh back to KGMB, and uh now when people ask me what I'm doing, I just say I'm living it up.

[00:01:41] Randall Roth: Living it up, all right. Well now I know it's resigned rather than uh retired. What are some of the things that led to your resignation?

[00:01:49] Bob Jones: Oh, I think they're all very complex and uh I don't want to really point any fingers of blame. Probably a part of it was just a time in my own life when I felt it was uh, maybe time to do something else, maybe at least, uh if not do something else, to sit back and figure out where I was going, why I was doing what I was doing. I I feel very strongly that people sometimes your work becomes your life. And it's where you put all your energy and you get up every morning and you go to this job and I'm not sure that people always understand why they're doing what they're doing. I understand

[00:02:35] Bob Jones: why mechanically why they do it. You need money to get along. Uh you know people are taking care of mortgages and people are taking care of families.

[00:02:35] Bob Jones: Um and so they simply say, well this is what I do. I get up today and I go and anything. I drive truck, I I'm a journalist and but sometime I think you really need to sit down and say, where have I been going?

[00:02:47] Randall Roth: Well now you've had some months to get that perspective. Uh you've uh uh sat up if you will and ignored the brush fires for a while. What sort of perspective do you have on it now?

[00:03:00] Bob Jones: Oh I come to realize that um probably some of the things that I did or that I went along with, uh because they made good business sense, uh did not always make great journalistic sense, but you everybody I guess gets a great sense of rationalization about what you're doing.

[00:03:20] Randall Roth: Can you give us an example or two? Not to go into a lot of detail, but so we have a sense for what you mean by that.

[00:03:25] Bob Jones: Well I think what has most disturbed me um in the last uh maybe in the last month of really thinking about it is that I'm not sure it's really compatible uh for journalism to be both a commercial venture and a service to an audience out there. It's very hard to make those two mesh well and to make everybody happy with it. Uh, as a I wouldn't, I'm not saying that journalism should be a state enterprise. I mean I I really think it needs to be a private enterprise. But if you're going to make it something just like, uh, selling chickens or, or, or selling bread, um it's kind of difficult if you're, if your first,

[00:04:18] Bob Jones: uh, worry is we're owned by stockholders and we've got to make money for the stockholders.

[00:04:18] Bob Jones: And we need to raise our audience or we need to raise our readership and so we will do what the readers and the viewers want. Mhm. Um that makes great sense if you're in retail. It would make, it would make no sense to sell dresses that nobody is buying. I'm not sure though in journalism that you have to go to your audience and say, what do you want? And we'll give that to you because the tradition of journalism has been that the journalists give to the people what they think the people ought to have.

[00:04:54] Randall Roth: Well now, you are known as a bit of a, a critic of the media. Um here in Hawaii, what grade would you give the media in general and then explain a little bit why that would be the grade.

[00:05:08] Bob Jones: I don't know if I can grade and I'm not See, I'm a teacher, I need an A or a B or something like that. Um well, you're a teacher and as you know everybody wants an A and thinks they deserve one and so it's very hard to say that and you know grading is is very subjective. Um, I mean, you're you're waffling Bob. Well I taught, so Okay. Oh, I, and you're a lawyer as well. Okay. Um I, my I don't know that I want to get in into specific criticism all the time. I mean, some there are some little things, and we'll probably get to it sometime this morning, but overall, I think my

[00:06:05] Bob Jones: main um criticism over the years has been that people are awful timid, generally as journalists in Hawaii. One of the things that it seems that everybody wants to do is get along with their the people they work with. Not in the newsrooms, but I mean the people they cover.

[00:06:05] Randall Roth: More so here than elsewhere?

[00:06:06] Bob Jones: Much more so here and everybody who comes to this town from outside as journalists always remarks on exactly the same thing. This is not an in-your-face kind of journalism.

[00:06:17] Randall Roth: Why would that be? Is it just uh the culture or is there a sense that there might be political retribution or what could it be that would make it different here in Hawaii?

[00:06:27] Bob Jones: I think the culture says everything about it. This is not an in-your-face kind of place um and that everybody gets sucked into that, even the outsiders who come to work here are kind of told by the other people, boy you're being awful, you know you're making making A here and that's not what we do in this state. The other thing is it's very, very small, and everybody that you cover or deal with you're going to see in the next couple of weeks on the street, socially and I think a lot of people don't feel comfortable. Um having an adversarial relationship with people they see every day. Um I never had that uh in my outside

[00:08:48] Bob Jones: experience at all and I think one of the earlier jobs I had which was the Overseas Weekly, it was a paper published uh by a civilian group, it was circulated on military bases throughout Europe and it thrived on uncovering um unjust treatment of enlisted people, and one of the things that the editor told me when um when they first talked to me about working there is they said, um, I hope that, you know, one of your things in life aren't being liked by everybody that you're covering because if that's what you want, then you shouldn't work for this paper.

[00:08:48] Randall Roth: Well now, you couldn't change the culture if you wanted to, but let's pretend for a minute that you owned, if not the media, at least one of the media outlets. What would you change if you could change something?

[00:09:01] Bob Jones: I thought about that yesterday. I, I don't think there's any practical outlook that I will own any media agency. But, yeah, it just happened that that came to mind and I would love to see one agency here that put the money into hiring really top flight people. Really top flight. Um all Jim Dooleys if you will. From the Honolulu Advertiser. Um, a group of people who set out with an agenda to be advocates for the people who really don't care about toes that they may tread on, who are very experienced journalists. I'm not talking about just hellraisers for hellraisers' sake. I'm talking about people who uh research law, who uh research public right to know,

[00:09:33] Bob Jones: and uh who aggressively exercise all of that.

[00:09:33] Randall Roth: Well now, why wouldn't that happen especially now? There's a shake up going on with Channel 2 going over with Fox and we're having a, a new news station put together. Um I would think that the owner of one of these stations, and we're talking about the TV stations now, would be interested in getting some hot shot who would uh attract uh viewers because again it's all being shaken up right now. Why wouldn't that happen naturally?

[00:10:04] Bob Jones: I think mainly it's a matter of economics. It's a matter of cost. Uh really good journalists are not going to work very cheap. Um, it's unfortunate, but it's, it's it's reality. When I had when I was young and hustling and on the go, um I could have gone. In fact, when I went to the Louisville Courier-Journal, uh Mark Ethridge was the uh executive editor at the time, and one of the premier journalists in America, and he said to me the night that I arrived. He said, you know, we're really glad to have you, but frankly I wish that uh young people like you um went to work not for us, big paper, big name. I

[00:12:15] Bob Jones: wish you went to work for the uh Delta Democrat Times in Greenville, Mississippi, which really needs. It's a small paper, it's a aggressive paper. It was doing a lot of the integration coverage of the time. He said I wish that young people like you would go to these little places and lift them up and and carry them on to greater things. And uh good journalists are basically looking for uh better pay. And so to hire the people here, you'd have to say every one of them you're going to have to pay over $50,000 to hire them. Generally the stations here don't want to pay that much money. They would much rather get uh two people

[00:12:15] Bob Jones: for $25,000 each and helps to staff the place a little bit better instead of two people at $50,000. So, it has somewhat distressed me as I watch this new uh shake up of the stations here to see that um and without denigrating anybody's uh overall abilities, but uh Channel uh 13 in their initial hiring, for instance, their prime anchor, um Dan Cook, who is a really wonderful guy and I can't think of anybody that's got a nicer personality than he does or that, you know, a person that I I personally like very much, is not a an experienced journalist. He he's basically a disc jockey that moved into weather uh on TV and then they

[00:12:15] Bob Jones: put him on the anchor desk and he's been very successful at it. Um, and their first hires have been basically very young reporters. They hired one other reporter who was just recently a a cable reporter on Kauai. Um Emmy Tomimbang who is more of a personality than a hard journalist. So, you begin to see that the priorities are not necessarily I'm going to go out and hire the ten top journalists that I can find in town.

[00:12:15] Randall Roth: In case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth and my guest this morning is journalist Bob Jones. To ask a question or make a comment, just call 955-8821. Neighbor islanders are invited to call collect. The number again, 955-8821. Well, you also have been involved with the press. You're mostly thought of I think as being a a TV newsperson. Uh, what do you have to say about the press here in Hawaii? Whether it be something really good, or something that could stand some improvement. How do you think we stack up?

[00:12:52] Bob Jones: Oh, I need a little time to think. I just realized you don't have commercials on this this station. I can't take a breather and collect my thoughts. Um, I am uh not I think I've already said you know I'm not the greatest fan of uh of what is going on here in journalism. But I don't know it's any worse here other than that sometimes lack of aggressiveness than it is any place else. It happens that uh I had just had some correspondence uh with Bob Seevee who was my predecessor as the main anchor at KGMB. He lives in Olympia Washington and he wrote me that uh station that he watches up there, which I think

[00:13:52] Bob Jones: is Seattle, uh used to have a very aggressive and um what he thought was a top flight news organization and he said, you know, they're going the same way now that most of it is titillation, most of it is uh fluff.

[00:13:52] Bob Jones: Giving the people what the people want rather than what they need. As I say, it it's a business. Okay. And you have to market what's going to sell. Okay.

[00:14:02] Randall Roth: Well, we have a caller from Honolulu, Tom. Good morning, Tom.

[00:14:05] Caller: Good morning.

[00:14:06] Randall Roth: What do you have for Bob Jones today?

[00:14:09] Caller: Uh I wanted to ask a question uh pretty much a technical question about the Campbell uh estate uh land purchase for uh 65 million dollars. We're now hearing that it was uh way over the tax assessment on that land, which should be an easy fact to find out and to publish. So why are we hearing about it now uh when we could easily have heard about it two years ago.

[00:14:31] Randall Roth: Okay and you're talking about the funds that were uh supposed to be spent out at the airport that were diverted to buy uh this land and and now I guess uh number of people with the state have acknowledged that it shouldn't have been diverted and you're wondering why the media didn't uh dig this up a couple years ago, right Tom?

[00:15:05] Caller: That's right.

[00:15:10] Bob Jones: Well, it was uh covered and a good year ago, anyway, uh simply in a what happened kind of fashion and um in fact, I sat in on a an interview uh with the director of transportation and we discussed that uh that buy, and you know they justified why they were doing it. I think what's happening now is kind of since the change of administration it's getting a little a little more airing and obviously Governor Cayetano doesn't feel totally comfortable with it. Um, there was some coverage. No it wasn't big headlines and everything, but you have to remember there there are so many transactions and things going on. I don't think that anybody covers uh government

[00:16:16] Bob Jones: you know thoroughly enough to see everything that has happened. It's actually that's a, that's a relatively small purchase.

[00:16:16] Randall Roth: Well, I'm I'm curious and Tom I'm going to come back to you in just a second, but Bob, my sense and I could be way off on this, but I'm under the impression that Ian Lind at the Star Bulletin had more or less um broken that story. If that's true, if if one particular um organization, let's say the Star Bulletin uh found that one, does the rest of the media kind of ignore it or downplay it uh or or do they cover it just as enthusiastically as if they had been there at the at the beginning?

[00:17:17] Bob Jones: You have hit uh one of the more embarrassing aspects of our business or my former business right now. Um, that's absolutely true. What usually happens is when somebody, if it's a a story of an event, a car crash, a story in the paper yesterday, investigation of a deputy fire chief, um, a process story like that, yes, other people will jump on it. If it's a kind of exclusivity story, somebody's done a lot of research and comes up with uh something, which both Ian Lind and Jim Dooley do for their respective papers, the other media, the guy across the street tends not to get involved with that story. They say, oh, so and so is doing

[00:18:22] Bob Jones: that. He's done all the research, he's already so far ahead of us, uh what can we do other than parrot what he just printed yesterday? You know, that we can't get out in front of it.

[00:18:22] Randall Roth: And I'm I'm sure you'd be critical of that attitude.

[00:18:25] Bob Jones: Well, I don't know. Uh I I do I think there's something to be said for that, that if you are starting from scratch and not cribbing somebody else's research um, if if you're well on your way with the semiconductor, it's pretty hard for me to jump in there and say, gee I'm going to look into semiconductors, too. Uh, but uh it's absolutely true. I think so long as the story gets out, I'd never believed anything has to be done by all of the media. It depends on how much people read and how much TV they watch. TV does some some great stories um that are only on TV. And if you read the papers in

[00:19:15] Bob Jones: the morning, you'd never know that all this thing, this has occurred. Uh I but I don't necessarily think that every news agency has to replicate stories. This way if by both papers I guess. Tom, what do you think of this?

[00:19:15] Caller: Oh, I I like the answer. I'm still a little bit puzzled though about the purchase price. I I don't remember that being discussed in the media as being excessive or out of line with the tax assessment on the property and my uh impression is that tax assessment records are public.

[00:19:30] Randall Roth: Well Tom, I've got some real good news for you. Two weeks from today, uh we're going to have as our guest Harold Masumoto, who was the director of uh of planning for the state at that time and very much involved in that transaction. He and Ann Boccelli from the Advertiser are going to be here, and they're going to talk about a number of issues, but uh the 65 million dollar land purchase is uh the first one on the list. So, tune in in two weeks.

[00:20:13] Caller: Thank you very much.

[00:20:14] Randall Roth: Thank you, Tom. We have uh couple callers from the neighbor islands. First, Mark from Maui. Good morning, Mark.

[00:20:18] Caller: Good morning, Mark.

[00:19:00] Caller: I have a question for Bob Jones. Mr. Jones, I was um interested in um you describing to me how I would perceive the difference, how I would feel different if we had, let's say eight to 10 first rate journalists here who did study the law and had the people of Hawaii at their uh center of concern. What what what would be the [unintelligible — audio glitch] would I know anything had changed? How would I feel different?

[00:19:36] Bob Jones: Well, I think you want eight or 10 uh uh Jim Dooley's and Ian Lynn's uh out there working for you, that's all. Uh just as uh OJ Simpson has some of the best attorneys that money can buy working for him on his case and I'm sure the uh city of Los Angeles has some of the best attorneys that they can hire working for them. So, it's a matter of uncovering and delivering information and if you had all these fine, fine, well-trained people out there digging, uh you would get more than just Jim and Ian breaking major stories in the paper.

[00:20:15] Caller: Thank you.

[00:20:16] Bob Jones: Okay. Bob, I know this is simplistic, but uh is is part of what you're referring to the fact that so many individuals and organizations uh try to to manipulate the news. They they try to pretty much um direct how something's going to be covered through press releases and media events and all that sort of thing. And the media has to work harder and harder as a result in order to find out what's really going on as opposed to the picture that that organization is trying to paint. You have a remarkably good understanding of how the system works. I'm just lucky this morning. No, that's exactly what uh goes on. It's another thing. It's something I

[00:21:39] Bob Jones: forgot to mention in our general discussion. Is that's true. The the people are better and better at creating uh public relations for themselves and it does take a more discerning newsroom these days to cut through the crap if you will, to to get to the real issues of the day that need to be covered. Um if if a newsroom is just uh flooded with the news releases from people wanting coverage for things and they're much more creative these days and getting your attention, of doing it, they don't just necessarily send you a little fax anymore. They send a whole dancing team down to the newsroom to make a presentation and it's the easy way to

[00:21:39] Bob Jones: go is to cover events.

[00:21:39] Bob Jones: Mhm. It doesn't take a whole lot of work, if you've got all these people have told you of 10 events happening the next day, and they package it for you. And the editor, assignment editor, whatever it is can say, Boy, we got a full day tomorrow starting right at 8 o'clock in the morning. We got the dancing bears uh down in Chevrolet. We have the etc. And sure, uh if you if you take the obvious Mhm. you can fill your uh your new your paper, your newscast and something every day. But on the other hand, uh do you want to, or do you want these people out there examining for instance, the tax records and

[00:23:25] Bob Jones: uh the the purchase price of a piece of land. Uh what really happens is that the need to fill uh time, especially, I I can't talk about the papers very much because I haven't worked there in a newspaper for for years, so I don't know the process so well. I do television. Um, you have a newscast to fill. And it's every assignment editor comes to work every day at every station with exactly the same fear. What am I going to do, you know, what are we going to do today to fill those uh 16 minutes of news that's exclusive of sports and commercials. What's, you know, where are we going to find this stuff for

[00:23:25] Bob Jones: 16 minutes and I've only got four reporters working today because one's on vacation, another one called in sick and so, oh, here's several things. We got news releases, these things are happening. Most of them just can't afford to have uh a reporter, I mean a Jim Dooly is an incredible luxury in a television station. Somebody who can say I just look into things. And once every six months or something I'm going to come up with a real goody but the rest of the time I'm not going to contribute anything to the newscast.

[00:23:25] Caller: In fact, uh Jim Dooly did a chapter in The Price of Paradise volume two and he commented that the big difference between what he does and what other reporters do is that he's given more time to work up the story. We have a couple callers on the line. First Pam from the Big Island. Pam, good morning.

[00:23:38] Caller: Good morning. Um I would just had a question. Uh do you think the media realizes that with all the negative news, especially crime stories and whatnot that a lot of people just aren't listening anymore. They're just tired of hearing all the crimes and you know, myself personally, I just don't want to hear anymore about OJ Simpson. Yeah I'm tired of it and uh there's so many wonderful things going on in the world that the media leaves the general public feeling like nothing good ever happens and fact, an older neighbor down the street said, you know, I'm afraid uh just because of what I hear on the news, you know, and yet we feel like we

[00:24:46] Caller: live in a very nice safe neighborhood. But just because of all the negativism, you know, she feels like you know, she has to keep her doors super locked and you know, just be so so careful. So um you know, as far as radio and TV goes, I would have a suggestion you know have a half hour of just crime news for those that love to hear that sort of thing. It's kind of interesting. Kind of parents turn off your TV or whatever or optimist turn off the TV. There's a lot of adults. Uh you know, they just I've heard so many people say I don't watch the news anymore.

[00:24:46] Bob Jones: Well Pam, let me let me get Bob's thoughts to that. If if it bleeds, it leads, is something I've heard before. Is there truth to that, Bob? I know I don't necessarily think that's true at all. If if it's a good story or what [unintelligible — audio glitch] news editors feel is a good story, the best story, it leads. That's basically what it is. Uh that's that bleeds, it leads is is very old and um is only practiced by a few stations uh here and there that have that as a policy. There is a station in uh Miami that's come under great criticism uh because it has gone to those not only fast stories, every

[00:26:16] Bob Jones: story should be done in 15 or 20 seconds, but [unintelligible — audio glitch] crime. But most stations are simply looking for a good story. Now, about bad things, crime news, etc. Um I think that um we have found, I talked at the beginning about giving people what they want, whether you do it or don't. Most places the current thing is give people what they want. We do a lot of research. We pay big money for that. Uh KGMB we paid an enormous amount of money for AR&D, one of the largest research outfits in the country to come out here. Yeah, and say But but are they telling you that people want coverage of crime? Want

[00:26:16] Bob Jones: crime, yes that they that they're one of their prime things. I think we had uh 10 items that they said we should really stress, that everybody says they want coverage of, and very high on that list, one or two was uh was crime.

[00:26:16] Bob Jones: And as you were saying earlier, um whether we like it or not, since people want it and you're trying to get as many viewers as possible, there's a real tendency to um um magnify it. Yeah, I think uh Pam what you're talking about is that you are tired of it and you don't want to watch television anymore. But for every one of you, there are 10 other people out there that are saying, I want to hear more about crime because I know somebody in my neighborhood their house was busted in, they were beaten up or something. And I want to hear more about that. Yeah, I realize you you have to do some coverage on

[00:27:05] Bob Jones: it but I wondered if it could be segregated from general news. You know, people enjoy turning on the news station because they want to hear the weather forecast for their area, they want to know about sports perhaps. And there are so many wonderful things happening and I'm afraid the crime news is crowding out a lot of the other really good stuff.

[00:27:05] Bob Jones: I don't know. We're getting uh CNBC and uh court television. Maybe we could just have crime television. Separate channels for people who want. Well you know now that we've got a zillion channels, there should be, you know, the good news cast, right? Just the good news. I'm sure we will have that. Okay, thank you, Pam. Appreciate your call. From we have Lucy. Good morning, Lucy.

[00:27:24] Randall Roth: Hi, good morning. I have to make this quick because I have a a child clamoring at my knee, but you spoke earlier of uh practicing journalism at a higher level, and I wanted to talk about Environment Hawaii, and I think it's Pat Timmons Yes, who writes for that paper. Not everyone wants to read such in depth specialized reporting, but she does such a good job. I wanted to commend her and also ask why more media don't follow up on the research that she develops and the questions she raises.

[00:28:10] Bob Jones: Okay, we'll tell your child to to please bear with us a second because I think you brought up something very important. That's a marvelous uh newsletter that she puts out. It is extremely well-researched. It is journalism in my opinion at the highest, highest level, and you're absolutely right when you, unless you put a little flash and trash in it, uh it's very hard to get many people to read through it. You're usually preaching to the converted as they say, and it's it's unfortunate. And uh she probably needs um a little packaging as we say in television so that uh more people will uh pay attention to that. We we would probably do it with a

[00:29:06] Bob Jones: little uh music and a flashy pictures and set it all up and make sure that uh we say something very exciting in that first paragraph that grabs everybody's attention. But you're absolutely right about the quality of her journalism.

[00:29:06] Randall Roth: Well, you spoke earlier about not wanting to ride on someone else's research coattails, but um I wish people would in this case, take some of her work and and go with it and repackage it as you suggest so that it's more um digestible for the public because we need to listen to what um It's it's a great idea. I mean actually I wish that the one of the two papers would uh dovetail with her and say we'll we will actually uh print her stuff to give a wider circulation. I think Honolulu Weekly has done that in some cases. They did once that I know of. Mhm. Okay, I have to go, thank you. Thank you,

[00:29:38] Randall Roth: Lucy. Uh for those of you who aren't familiar with that publication, it's called uh Environment Hawaii and Pat Timmons is the editor, and uh Bob, do you know offhand how you would uh find out more about that publication? Um she's uh now uh resident on the Big Island so the only thing I can think of is uh to call the uh the operator, the information and ask for their number over there.

[00:29:38] Bob Jones: I know we had her on the show about a year or so ago and it was kind of hard getting a hold of her. But if any listeners out there are interested in finding out more about Environment uh Hawaii, if you'd give us a call here at the station and let us know, we'll get that number and and pass it on to you. We have several more callers on the line. Uh uh happy with it. all right that short statement here and ask Bob Jones to comment about it. Now uh recent Humanist Magazine had an article uh that uh addressed the subject corporate America calls the tune. And there's also a publication called fairness and

[00:35:11] Bob Jones: accuracy uh called extra put out by fairness and accuracy in reporting with some meat uh with uh what's dog for the press and the uh broadcast Accuracy and media I think is the name. No, accuracy and media is a is a phony as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry. Okay, what's your point, Jim? My point is that uh uh that I I wonder if we haven't found that uh uh new that the left uh is not really being represented and and because of the attacks from the right on on liberals that [unintelligible — audio glitch] center of gravity has been shifted so that we now have debates between centrrists and rightists and the left is

[00:35:11] Bob Jones: no longer really represented because it's unpleasant for the corporate masters to hear this.

[00:35:11] Bob Jones: Okay, now that's an interesting question because often times the media is accused of having a bias toward the left. What do you think What do you think, Bob? Of course Um [unintelligible — audio glitch] I've never really noticed a cross-the-board bias. Actually a lot of research has been done on that subject and what they generally find is that the reporters and newsrooms tend to be uh left liberal people. The owners of media tend to be more right conservative. Um so there's a sort of balancing act going on in there. [unintelligible — audio glitch] think if there's any um sort of influence that goes on it has to do, it's it's not an ideological thing, it

[00:37:08] Bob Jones: has to do with the practicalities of advertising and that is that that quite often the owners of media who are trying to make money are a little leery of uh overly antagonizing the people who pay the salaries, which is the which are the advertisers and may sometimes not want to uh tackle things as heavily as they would otherwise. And the other thing is if they have a particular uh agenda uh going uh before say government agencies, if somebody has a license pending, um they're going to have to do some business with the government agency. The owner probably isn't too happy if the reporters happen to be attacking that agency at the moment that your issue

[00:37:08] Bob Jones: is pending. All right, right. But I've never seen something that's institutionalized Okay. Control. You think this leads to unconscious bias on the part of reporters? Um, so that they don't get too far out of line. They think they're being free to write what they want, but they're they're free because they're writing what uh isn't disapproved of by their uh their publishers? Mhm. If if it's their uh I'm unconscious of it. Okay. Jim, I I appreciate you raising the issue, a very important issue. Thank you. Uh, Robin from Kailua, you've been very patient. Good morning.

[00:37:08] Caller: Good morning. I'd like to uh raise an issue about the reporting on environmental issues. Uh from my observation, there's an incredible lack of sophistication in our uh media. And I don't look for it in our broadcast media because they don't have the time to cover it, but the uh the print media who are making fantastic profits, especially their daily papers, uh could could cover it in more depth than with more sophistication. Um, and I'd like you to comment on that. One one additional uh matter to to elucidate this. Uh, the Hawaii uh environmental risk ranking study took a look at um risk to the environment and found that uh runoff um nonpoint source pollution was

[00:38:00] Caller: a much higher risk than uh than the uh city's uh wastewater discharge to the ocean, which they found

[00:38:00] Caller: be working just fine. Now, how many column inches of uh, of print were devoted to this suit against the city uh over wastewater and uh very little to this other problem.

[00:38:12] Randall Roth: Bob, what do you think?

[00:38:14] Bob Jones: Um, yeah, I guess so. It's just a matter of who's working on a story and when, uh you know, if you say there wasn't that much given to it in print. On the other hand, I remember um very specifically that uh Bob Loy, who was the uh eye on Hawaii reporter at KGMB when I was there, was doing many, many stories on this non point uh pollution issue. I think again that it's something that he's doing that, somebody looks at it from one of the papers and says, oh, Loy is already doing this thing, there's no use in us uh trampling on the same ground again.

[00:38:48] Caller: Uh well, I'd like to make one comment uh in response, and that is [unintelligible — audio glitch] read sometime ago in um in a small newsletter for journalists that uh a complaint that the um that the environmental uh journalists have been too much captive to environmental groups who bring them stories and uh uh scandals, and they build on that in their uh in the newspaper, um build on the controversy and miss the real issues.

[00:39:14] Randall Roth: Bob.

[00:39:14] Bob Jones: Yeah. Um, actually, uh if you tracked it through the years, you'd find out that most of the good stories that ever show up, what we call, I've got a good story here. Um come to us because somebody drops something in your lap. I mean, generally it does not happen. It doesn't happen to Jim Duley either. It doesn't happen because um you as a journalist we're sitting home at night and a light went off and you said, I think I'm going to go down and look at the tax records of so and so. It's it is because somebody brings you something and the best stories that I've ever had are broken, uh the ones that I'm

[00:39:59] Bob Jones: proudest of, were things where somebody called me up, either came and saw me or anonymously, um and said, I'm going to send you a bunch of documents and I think you ought to look this over.

[00:39:59] Caller: Yeah, but but the point is that uh that that can go too far. If you don't discern that the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund is making a mountain out of a molehill on uh ocean discharge of uh uh advanced primary treated sewage uh and then you continue to report the controversy with headlines.

[00:40:17] Randall Roth: And I guess that comes back to uh judgment and Bob you would say that we need people with um more experience and better judgment.

[00:40:25] Caller: More experience, better judgment, better discernment of the issues.

[00:40:28] Bob Jones: I have made no secret about this when I left, when I was doing some talking, when I wrote uh about it in Midweek, that uh that is one of the problems is that uh I felt for instance at my station that the reporters were by and large simply too young. Uh did not have enough life experience uh to say, well you know, anything that I get my hands on or anything that somebody brings to me. Life is complex. It's not all guys in white hats and guys in black hats. There's a lot of this gray in between uh that really needs to be explored. The most issues are not just one party's right and one's

[00:41:42] Bob Jones: wrong. And uh yes, [unintelligible — audio glitch] totally agree with you Robin that uh that uh sometimes um reporters can get into this rut of uh of saying, yes, here I've got this source, in this case, environmental stuff. And yes, I agree with you, um I think that the um the runoff uh that some of that pollution story has probably been uh oversimplified and mishandled, um by blaming it all on the sewage uh spills and not paying enough attention to uh that uh non-point pollution.

[00:41:42] Randall Roth: Thank you, Robin.

[00:41:43] Caller: Thank you. Bye.

[00:41:44] Randall Roth: In in case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guest this week is journalist Bob Jones. To ask a question or make a comment, just call 955-8821. Bob, how important is the news director at a TV uh to a TV news program? I've worked with channel two over the last year because of this Pop 94 thing and I became a bit of a fan of of Kent Baker. And the more I found out about the sort of job he had and the way he approached it, the more I realize that that's terribly important to the newscast that people see. You've seen it from the other

[00:42:24] Randall Roth: side, how important is the news director?

[00:42:24] Bob Jones: Um, it is the station. I mean I have been um the acting news director at KGMB twice, so once for over a year. Um, the news director sets the whole tone. I mean the philosophy uh of the newscast, the the personalities, who's going to be on and who's not going to be on, how long stories are going to be, what we ought to be emphasizing, um, the the look, the the graphic look of the show, and looking down the road at uh what it the place is going to be five years hence, and what kind of equipment, and what's going to happen technologically in the business. The news director is the the beating heart.

[00:43:07] Randall Roth: So when consumers like me see Joe Moore or or Bob Jones or whomever, they're on camera, um that's a little misleading in terms of of who's actually setting the tone for the show.

[00:43:20] Bob Jones: Absolutely because um if the anchor is doing things or presenting stories, uh his his manner of doing it is uh or her doing it is uh other than what the news director thinks it ought to be, the news director is going to call the anchor in and say, you know I don't like the way you are doing this or that. Now the news director is the boss.

[00:43:43] Randall Roth: Okay. We have a caller from Kiki. Ed, you're on the air.

[00:43:47] Caller: Yeah, first Randy, I never thanked you and congratulated you for putting all these programs on. I think you've done a heck of a lot for Hawaii. Sorry about that Bob but I think that Randy is owed a owed a great deal of credit. My main comment and question to uh Bob who I respect over the years, by almost inherently, television media, because of the short time constraints, seems to be oriented more toward emotional impact issues and drama rather than in-depth coverage. I'd like to get your comment on that.

[00:44:20] Bob Jones: Absolutely. Uh, there you have it. Well, no, you know, television is what it is. It's television and it needs people jumping up and down and uh singing and dancing in order to keep the viewer uh entertained. That's the way everything seems to be going. And actually uh, uh David Halberstam recently came out with a with a very strong and uh well thought out criticism of uh television specifically and and to a lesser degree, he said newspapers. But it is that we are moving more and more towards entertainment, um and less and less towards uh giving people essential information that they should have. Uh, everything is becoming much more tabloid journalism in style. And uh yes,

[00:45:29] Bob Jones: if you but you know, this is not new uh, remember back that um when Watergate broke in the Washington Post, um the networks later kind of flailed themselves for not having ever picked up on it themselves. But then they said, hey, uh Watergate's not a television story. It's a newspaper story. I mean, what would we use for pictures?

[00:45:29] Randall Roth: Well, well, well said, and I I guess I'll leave it there.

[00:45:32] Bob Jones: Thank you, Ed.

[00:45:33] Randall Roth: Okay. We have a caller from the Big Island, George, good morning.

[00:45:36] Caller: Hey, good morning Randy. Um, I um was going to talk to a little bit about the uh uh Pat Timmons paper but somebody mentioned that first, environment Hawaii. There's there's another paper that is really excellent here on the Big Island that maybe nobody knows about. It's Kau Landing. Uh comes out once a month. And excellent reporting, and if you've never heard about it, you should look into it.

[00:46:00] Randall Roth: George, how would uh someone find out about that uh, you know, the details about that publication, you know offhand?

[00:46:05] Caller: Well, yeah, I have a copy here in front of me. Uh let's see.

[00:46:11] Randall Roth: And while, while you're while you're looking at that, uh for anyone who's interested, our our producer Susie Roth has gotten Pat Timmons address. And if you would like that mailing address, you can call in to 955-8821 and she'll give that to you. George, have you found uh how to Yeah.

[00:46:28] Caller: Yeah, Kau Landing, uh Post Office Box 160, uh Pahala, P A H A L A, Hawaii 96777.

[00:46:39] Randall Roth: Okay.

[00:46:40] Caller: And it is an excellent paper.

[00:46:41] Randall Roth: Okay, we encourage people to take a look at it.

[00:46:43] Bob Jones: George, uh thank you for your call. I just have to interject here that I'm um really pleasantly surprised at the number of people who turn in tune in at this early hour of the morning and and call in. I when uh when uh Susie Roth first talked to me about coming on the program, I thought, who's going to be up at 7:30?

[00:47:00] Caller: Well, talking about excellent journalism, this program is is an example of excellent journalism, I think.

[00:47:05] Bob Jones: George, you're you're obviously a very insightful individual. Thank you very much.

[00:47:10] Randall Roth: Yeah, bye. We have a caller from Kailua. Jim, good morning.

[00:47:13] Caller: Hi Bob.

[00:47:15] Bob Jones: Yes, sir. Hello there.

[00:47:16] Randall Roth: Hi Jim.

[00:47:16] Caller: Have you read the book, What America, What Went Wrong by Donald uh Bartlett and James Steely, they're reporters from the Philadelphia Inquirer?

[00:47:24] Bob Jones: No, sir. I have not.

[00:47:25] Caller: America what went wrong, you got to look at that. It talks about all these leveraged buyouts and what it's done to jobs and industry in America. And in Hawaii, uh are are people generally afraid or uncapable of going after the Bishop Estate in in a really meaningful way considering all the incredible uh well, it's a lot of things in there that could be got gone after, but it seems like if you live in Hawaii, you got to keep quiet.

[00:47:51] Bob Jones: Jim, you're suggesting that just because they've got, you know, 10 or 20 billion dollars of assets that that might influence people's thinking.

[00:47:58] Randall Roth: Exactly. Bob uh Jim raises an interesting question. What do you think?

[00:48:01] Bob Jones: I don't think anybody is afraid to go after them. [unintelligible — audio glitch] sometimes think that uh actually Bishop Estate um takes some licks uh occasionally it doesn't deserve. I mean it is a uh albeit uh allegedly nonprofit, it is um [unintelligible — audio glitch] money making organization. It is large, it owns a lot of land, it can't help being in the at the center of uh some controversy and an important player in the in in policy in this state. But I I don't think I've ever heard that anybody is uh feels afraid of them. I mean reporters may live on leased land but I don't think they they figure if they do a tough

[00:48:45] Bob Jones: story that Bishop Estate's going to come around and and uh jack up their rent or something.

[00:48:45] Randall Roth: What do you think, Jim?

[00:48:47] Caller: Well, it's it's an incredible story. When I look at the the amount of money that the trustees get paid, it seems so out of touch with reality when you look at what's happening to all the little people in the in the country that salaries are, you know, going down in in so many industries now and losing out, and Hawaii is becoming for the middle class an increasingly difficult place for them to even, you know, contemplate existing here. I don't know what the answer is going to be, but

[00:49:13] Randall Roth: Well Jim, continue to tune in. I haven't put it together yet, but our producer Susie Roth is trying to get uh some of the Bishop Estate trustees to come in and and answer people's questions and and respond to their comments. And so hopefully sometime in the next month or two, we'll have a show on that topic.

[00:49:29] Caller: Well, that would be interesting.

[00:49:30] Randall Roth: Thank you, sir. Thank you. In case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. My guest this morning is journalist Bob Jones. To ask a question or make a comment, the number is 955-8821. Uh Bob, we've got a caller but before we we take that caller, I want to be sure to ask you before we run out of time, what would your reaction be if I asked you a question and you said, oh, I I really don't want to comment on that, and I said, well, just between you and me, just whisper it to me, what's your answer? Is that good journalism or is that problematic?

[00:50:07] Bob Jones: Okay, we're into the Connie Chung um Mrs. Gingrich uh matter and I think you have seen that uh Connie Chung has taken some heavy hits from her journalist colleagues over this that nobody's very comfortable with that. I understand what CBS's position too which is that they're saying that because there there was this interview going on and the lights are on and the cameras are all and everything else when Connie Chung leaned over Mrs. Gingrich and said well, tell me it's strictly between us, um that that's uh you know it's a little disingenuous for Mrs. Gingrich to say, well, I never knew it would be on TV. Connie Chung didn't say, this will be off the

[00:51:34] Bob Jones: record or we will not use this in our interview. On the other hand, it's pointed out that she spent like eight hours at the family home before this interview was done, uh kind of getting close to them and making herself like a friend. So it is also very possible that uh Mrs. Gingrich felt she was talking more to a friend than than to a journalist and may not be sophisticated enough to know, well the cameras are on, don't say anything in front of them that you wouldn't want repeated to the nation. Over in balance, um, I feel that probably Connie Chung stepped over the line. I mean, there was there was no need for her

[00:51:34] Bob Jones: to say that just between you and me. She could have pressed her and said, well, come on, tell us, you know.

[00:51:34] Randall Roth: Okay. We have a caller from Iaea. Lila, you're on the line. Good morning.

[00:51:38] Caller: Hi, I wanted to make a comment about the Bishop Estate Trustee salaries, and I am Hawaiian, and I am disturbed by the amount. Now, Senator Blair tried to pass a bill which would affect uh the salaries of all charitable trusts. So the way to change it is to pass it in the legislature. But the bottom line is uh that the positions are such political plums that that won't happen until all the people really band together. On the other hand, people have to realize that the Bishop Estate is a private trust that is supposed to educate the Hawaiian children. So we do need perhaps uh more legislation which emphasizes that fact and I don't know how

[00:53:01] Caller: to do that because that is a charitable trust. Many of us are disturbed but until perhaps the bishop uh estate uh alumni, that is the Kamehameha school alumni, really band together and demand that from uh the trustees and perhaps uh you know, thousands of Hawaiian parents. Okay.

[00:53:01] Bob Jones: It's not going to happen by itself, right?

[00:53:03] Randall Roth: Exactly. Lila, oh, I'm sorry, is it is it Lila?

[00:53:05] Caller: Yes.

[00:53:06] Bob Jones: Uh let me interject this. Uh most attention of course goes to the salaries and um I've written about that. So my opinion on it is up front that I think they they are being paid too much. But let's not forget the crux of the issue here, and that is who's going to be a trustee. It's a very important job, Exactly. And uh for me, every time I see, [unintelligible — audio glitch] begin to say to myself, if I were running the business, um Henry Peters, uh Lokilani Lindsay, uh these are not financial geniuses that we're getting up there. And if I were running a business, I would want uh five absolutely top drawer uh financial

[00:53:58] Bob Jones: people with experience in real estate, um with experience in investing money. And I think that's the issue that really needs to be examined, uh, why are some of these people trustees?

[00:53:58] Randall Roth: It's interesting uh to justify the salaries, they often times point to what the the heads of big banks and what not are are being paid. But with the exception of Oz Steiner, one wonders whether any of those uh trustees would would have a serious chance to be hired uh for a position like that. Lila, I really appreciate your call, and when we do a show on Bishop Estate, I hope you'll call in and and I I want to hear more of your thoughts at that time.

[00:54:21] Caller: Well, I hope somebody will really check into um the investment patterns.

[00:54:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I appreciate your call and and again, we're going to do a show on Bishop Estate sometime in the next several months so you'd be listening.

[00:54:33] Caller: Mahalo.

[00:54:34] Randall Roth: Mahalo. We have a caller from Palolo, Bill, good morning.

[00:54:38] Caller: Hey, good morning. Uh hi Bob, I sure do miss you in the afternoon and evening and all together.

[00:54:45] Randall Roth: Thank you, Bill.

[00:54:46] Caller: I would ask you uh will you please consider uh doing a talk show? It's not going to pay you any money. Uh, but uh we need uh views like yours uh and we need to further educate you on our uh drinking water, now you know who I am.

[00:55:06] Randall Roth: I know which bill this is.

[00:55:08] Caller: Well, just keep going Curly. We need you back on the air.

[00:55:11] Bob Jones: Well, listen, I I have to tell you that um actually, uh I've been trying to figure out what I really want to do. Uh you know, do I want to be a tour bus driver? Uh I don't know what I want to do. But one of the things I would like to do, quite frankly, is I would like to do a radio talk show, but you know there isn't much of it going on in Hawaii right now. It's it's it's mostly music.

[00:55:31] Caller: Well, that that involves you telling somebody you're available.

[00:55:35] Bob Jones: Well, listen, I I'm glad I paid you to call in and say this Bill. So hopefully the owner of some station will call me tomorrow night and say Bob, I want you to do a a good solid talk show.

[00:55:47] Caller: What I'd like to see you do is uh is write a book about our drinking water problem.

[00:55:52] Bob Jones: Thank you.

[00:55:53] Randall Roth: Thank you, Bill. For for listeners out there, Bill is well known for raising that particular topic and uh Bob, I'm supposed to ask the good questions, not you. Uh, I was going to ask you just what you're going to do in addition to being a radio show host, is is there anything that Bob Jones would like to be doing sometime in the future?

[00:56:13] Bob Jones: I don't know, that's that's one of the things I sit out on the beach uh and uh I get some reading done. I'm working my way through Edward Abbey's books right now.

[00:56:22] Randall Roth: You know you look awfully tan and relaxed, and you know that upsets the heck out of the rest of us, but but go ahead.

[00:56:28] Bob Jones: But no, [unintelligible — audio glitch] really uh don't know and I was quite serious about that that I would like to do a good uh radio talk show. And the reason is, when I have heard talk shows, not yours of course, which is brilliant and beyond reproach, but Uh And besides that too early in the morning for you to listen to, right? Uh, but you know I've always been dismayed by the kind of glib way that some of the hosts handle complex issues, and the fact that they also give out a lot of misinformation. There there tend quite often to be people who think I mean, you know everything. I'm listening to something and it's

[00:57:15] Bob Jones: a question of uh it's a legal point or something else, and I'm saying, no, no, that's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. But thousands of people out there believe that what if somebody has access to the microphone, they must be right.

[00:57:15] Randall Roth: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:57:16] Bob Jones: But I'm I'm not really sure where I'm going to go yet.

[00:57:18] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh in case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. My guest is journalist Bob Jones. To ask a question or make a comment, just call 955-8821. Bob, let's focus on Hawaii. Um Any big concerns out there?

[00:57:36] Bob Jones: Big concerns. Same ones that have been going on for years. Probably the biggest, uh like for me uh for everybody else. I have a daughter. She's 21 years old. She's just uh uh graduated from college, um and she's going to be moving on. Mm hmm. Um [unintelligible — audio glitch] good jobs uh other than the service industry and so forth are not here. And um as she says, here I am a brand new person in the workplace. Uh how am I ever going to afford uh to have an apartment in Hawaii? I'd have to pay 1,200 a month or something and can't do it. So I think like everybody else, we're faced with that uh

[00:58:17] Bob Jones: unfortunate thing of all of our kids moving on to other states who would like to live here.

[00:58:17] Randall Roth: Who do you admire most here in Hawaii? Whether it'd be a politician or a media personality or just um some older person down the block from you? Who do you admire most here in Hawaii?

[00:58:29] Bob Jones: Randy, it's you. No.

[00:58:31] Randall Roth: Well, that's why I asked the question. No, no, no.

[00:58:34] Bob Jones: I Who do you admire most? [unintelligible — audio glitch] don't know. I uh I have I don't have a most admired. I really admire people who give good public service. Um you know, a few selfless people. I've always really appreciated um David Hagino in in the house, Jim Sean, um people that I feel uh give more of themselves and don't necessarily ask to have their ego stroked every day in return. Mm hmm.

[00:59:05] Randall Roth: We're trying to get David Hagino to be a guest on the show. And so if if David, if you're out there, if anybody knows David, put in a good word for us because we really would like to hear his thoughts on all of this. Advice for young people?

[00:59:17] Bob Jones: Oh, probably uh do something other than um broadcast journalism which, you know, the future of it seems to be very much in doubt. Why? Uh Well, because of what's happening um all over with the revolution of uh television. Of Time Warner is already into this and it's going to spread like wildfire. And that is kind of television on demand. You'll come into your house now and push a button and it will give you um latest news, it will give you a movie on demand. It it's Time Warner's thing comes by satellite, giant storage thing of everything that's happening and movies and everything and instant replay to your home. So there's not going to be much

[01:00:01] Bob Jones: um out there that's kind of spontaneous journalism anymore.

[01:00:01] Randall Roth: Hm. And who's going to watch?

[01:00:04] Bob Jones: Now, why do you say that?

[01:00:05] Randall Roth: Well, if you can order up a movie, we're an entertainment-oriented society, I really believe. And if people have at their command, they don't have to wait for 8:00. Anytime they want to they can push a button and get first-run movie up on their TV set. Are they going to watch news?

[01:00:22] Bob Jones: How do we get more people feeling more responsible for the future of their community, as opposed to just wanting to be entertained? First rate education, liberal arts education. It's a practically a crusade of mine, that more people need to have their minds primed to receive information. And we just cannot afford not to keep encouraging people to have the best possible education out there. We have to keep pushing at them, that they have this responsibility.

[01:00:56] Randall Roth: Okay. Are you optimistic when you look at the future of Hawaii? Are you optimistic?

[01:01:02] Bob Jones: I'm all I'm optimistic for all of mankind. I really am. Sounds maybe sounds simplified, but um yes, um we we find ways to deal with things as they go along, and I don't think that every things are going to come to a crashing halt. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[01:01:21] Randall Roth: Well, we've got just a minute or so left. What haven't we talked about that Bob Jones feels strongly about? Or that is such an important topic that it really ought to be covered before we leave today.

[01:01:34] Bob Jones: I don't know. If I have strong feelings about anything, I usually exercise them in my midway column. So I that there isn't much left that I have not uh ever said anything about. Um again, uh if I have any worry at all, it's that um as I see our kids uh going through college and so forth, it's that maybe we are not teaching them enough about uh critical thinking.

[01:01:57] Randall Roth: Critical thinking. Okay. Well Bob Jones, I very much appreciate you taking the time to come down here today. Obviously, from uh the calls that we receive, people are very interested in your thoughts about what's going on. This week's show was produced by Suzy Roth, with technical support from Jeff Ailardi. We hope you'll join us next week and every Sunday morning when we hear the thoughts of local newsmakers as they discuss the issues that are shaping the future of Hawaii. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

[01:01:37] Bob Jones: exercise them in my mid-week column, so there isn't much left that I have not ever said anything about.

[01:01:45] Bob Jones: Again, if I have any worry at all, it's that as I see our kids going through college and so forth, it's that maybe we're not teaching them enough about critical thinking.

[01:01:57] Randall Roth: Critical thinking. Okay. Well, Bob Jones, I very much appreciate you taking the time to come down here today. Obviously from the calls that we received, people are very interested in your thoughts about what's going on.

[01:02:09] Randall Roth: This week's show was produced by Suzy Roth, with technical support from Jeff Ilardi. We hope you'll join us next week and every Sunday morning when we hear the thoughts of local newsmakers as they discuss the issues that are shaping the future of Hawaii. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show.

[01:02:26] Randall Roth: I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.