Conversation with Harold Masumoto
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-01-29
Guests: Harold Masumoto (President, Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii; former Director of State Planning)
Duration: 1:09:06

[00:00:01] Randall Roth: Good morning. My name is Randy Roth, and this is the Price of Paradise radio show. With me in the studio today is Harold Masumoto. Harold, for the past 8 years, served as Governor Waihee's director of state planning. Currently, he's the executive director of the Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii. This is a live broadcast and listeners are invited to join in our conversation by calling 955-8821. Harold, good morning and welcome to our show.
[00:00:37] Harold Masumoto: Good morning. Thanks for the inviting me.
[00:00:40] Randall Roth: Currently, you're at something called the Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii. And I know before you served in the Waihee administration, you were at the university as a vice president for administration for many years, 25 years I believe.
[00:00:54] Harold Masumoto: 25.
[00:00:55] Randall Roth: 25. Tell us a little bit what is the Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii?
[00:01:00] Harold Masumoto: The Research Corporation of University of Hawaii was created by the legislator legislature in the, I would say, 1965 and it's basically a service bureau for the university. Uh, as you can understand, the grantor, the federal government usually provides funds to the University of Hawaii and requires the university to start the project right away. They want their If they give the University the money, they want the University to do the research immediately and if you follow the state bureaucracy, the project would take six seven months to get started. So the legislature recognizing that way back in 1965, authorized the establishment of a Research Corporation. Basically what the Research Corporation does is hires people and purchases the goods and services for the University of Hawaii. That's the primary mission and 95% of their business.
[00:01:49] Randall Roth: So, in a way, you're like a little entrepreneurial unit there at the university that's designed to to turn on a dime, to move quickly.
[00:01:56] Harold Masumoto: Basically, to move quickly. You're right.
[00:01:58] Randall Roth: Okay. Now, I think when you were describing that process, you mentioned the federal government and I'm I'm told those folks are thinking about uh spending a lot less money in the future. How do you feel about that?
[00:02:08] Harold Masumoto: That is of great concern to us and the University of Hawaii, obviously. Uh, you know, the university gets about $80 million with the federal research funds and a reduction or cutting off of those funds will I think cause some disruption within the university. Uh, we basically need to put out more proposals, good proposals and just be more aggressive.
[00:02:30] Randall Roth: What what's the worst that could happen? Uh, are the Republicans in Congress, for example, talking about eliminating that completely or or simply reducing that sort of thing?
[00:02:39] Harold Masumoto: I don't know. I I had an opportunity to discuss that issue with Senator Inouye about a week ago, in fact, six days ago. I think he uh he expects that the defense sector research in the defense, the defense related sector will be maintained at the current levels, but that uh there'll be more universities applying for those grants. So, we just have to be uh sharper than the the other universities.
[00:03:02] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, and I don't remember the details, but maybe a year or so ago there were a series of articles in the newspaper and one of the points being made was that the Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii was somehow a a politicized organization. Can can you tell me just what it is that that's all about that somehow or another, that it's tied into the politics of Hawaii?
[00:03:26] Harold Masumoto: I don't remember specifically that article. I I do know that the Research Corporation wasn't in use along with the University of Hawaii. And what has happened is the regulatory climate in the uh federal grants area has changed tremendously. Uh, you may recall the uh Stanford University episode where the federal government said the uh they shouldn't have charged the presidency yacht to the federal government.
[00:03:51] Randall Roth: I see.
[00:03:51] Harold Masumoto: And that has, of course, trickled down to all universities including University of Hawaii. So it there's a tremendous amount of change occurring now.
[00:03:59] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, now as I understand it, something called the Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii, for most folks, we would assume that that's somehow under the University of Hawaii, that the president of the University, President Mortimer, would be in control of that. And yet, as I understand your explanation a few minutes ago, you're really independent of his operation.
[00:04:16] Harold Masumoto: Yes, we do have uh the Research Corporation's governed by a nine-member board. Uh, six appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Senate. Uh, the uh member of the uh governor's cabinet, the director of the Department of Business and Economic Development and Tourism, is a member, ex officio member, and the president of the University and the Vice President for Research are ex officio members, voting members. So, there are six outside directors, as you might uh I might I that I would uh define them as. And uh statutorily, they are an independent corporation. On the other hand, for those familiar with uh with state statutes, there is a statute that says that uh that um all boards and commissions, and uh Research Corporation is a board of commission, shall be assigned to and one of the existing departments. So, the Research Corporation is assigned to the University of Hawaii for administrative purposes. So there's a little um uh debate as to what does administration administrative purposes mean.
[00:05:17] Randall Roth: We call those Hoppa organizations.
[00:05:19] Harold Masumoto: Yeah, Hoppa.
[00:05:21] Randall Roth: Harold, there one of the deals that you worked on some years ago in the Waihee administration has been in the news recently. And as I understand it, and I'm sure you're going to give us more detail and probably correct uh some of this in just a moment, but my understanding is that $65 million of of so-called airport funds were used to buy a racetrack and surrounding land. And now there are a variety of people, including Governor Cayetano, who are saying that the use of those funds for that particular purpose was wrong and that the money has to be returned, but the land in question evidently can't be sold now for anywhere near the $65 million that was paid by the state. Uh, what are your thoughts on all of that?
[00:06:04] Harold Masumoto: Randy, thanks for bringing up that issue. I uh think there's a lot of background that people aren't aware of. Uh, this I think all started way back in 1988, when the legislature appropriated so probably about $90 million to acquire land in the second city area. Now, if you're familiar with the geography of Honolulu, the second city area is it basically extends from Ewa to almost Waianae and if you look at the land ownership, you'll discover that it's all owned by one land owner and by government policy, we're creating a monopoly. A land monopoly was being created.
[00:06:43] Randall Roth: And that landowner is Campbell Estate.
[00:06:45] Harold Masumoto: The State the State of James Campbell. Okay. So, the legislature, right in their wisdom, uh appropriated substantial amounts of money to buy some land. And of course, at that particular time, affordable housing was also a big issue. So, they authorized the acquisition of land in that area. The uh State started to move towards it. Uh, they broke it up into two phases. The first phase was purchase approximately, I I I recall now about 900 acres and the village of Kapolei was started and, of course, now it's it's a thriving uh bedroom community. I use the term bedroom because I'm not hap- quite happy with the way it's turning out, there's not just not enough jobs out there. There was some there was some money left over. Uh, they couldn't finish the negotiate, they couldn't uh reach agreement with Campbell Estate, the state of James Campbell on the price and, you know, terms and conditions of uh conveyance. So, the state filed a condemnation action against uh the state of James Campbell. That was going through the process of discovery and in the public purpose and all those other things for two I'm going to say, at least 18 months. And in the meantime, as you may recall, the uh economy was booming, and the airport thought they needed an expansion. So, they went to the legislature and the legislature authorized the start planning and design of of of a major, major uh international terminal. And as you may recall, international terminal, they had uh things like uh people mover, all those other things were supposed to be built. I remember we're talking about billions of dollars. Billions of dollars. Okay, so the airport starts to start the airport division starts the State starts to uh acquire land in the uh in the uh what we call the Ulen street area, near the airport. And they start condemnation proceedings and start negotiations. Uh, they I think there were about two large parcels of land owned by about three trusts involved and, I don't know, maybe a hundred uh tenants on on those parcels.
[00:08:45] Randall Roth: Okay. And and this is land right around the airport.
[00:08:47] Harold Masumoto: Airport, right.
[00:08:48] Randall Roth: Okay. And the discussion, and this is where I I I came in um into discussion. Uh, the uh uh the the landowner, uh I think it was the one of the trusts, I forget their name right now, indicated that they are a land holding trusts. They don't like to get rid of land. Is there a land that you could have that you could exchange. And that's where the idea of exchange buying land to exchange for Started. Well now, why wouldn't they just sell the land to you and then use the proceeds from that sale to buy land? Why would they need to get land from you?
[00:09:22] Harold Masumoto: Because they they'd have to invest in the mainland somewhere. You know, it's difficult to take that amount of money, you're talking about 70 to 80 million dollars worth of of of land land uh sale funds. You couldn't invest that in Hawaii. I guess what the 18 months invested invested in 36 months on an involuntary condemnation. So they were looking for a land. So that's where the discussion started. I see and so they were going to use your ability to condemn land to find $70 or $80 million or whatever of land that they could receive in exchange for the land at the airport. That that's the way it started. That's how it started. Now, Campbell Estate At the same time, as you may recall, the feedlot, Hawaii Meat company announced that they were going to close.
[00:10:07] Randall Roth: And uh Now is this a third parcel of real estate?
[00:10:10] Harold Masumoto: A third parcel of land. This is getting complicated. Very complicated. We've got the the race track and surrounding land that you bought from Campbell Estate for 65 million. That's out there. And then we've got the land right around the airport that you uh just really wanted to buy, but you're saying the people who own that land didn't want cash. They wanted land instead. And now we've got a third parcel of real estate that you're calling the uh the feedlot. Feedlot, right.
[00:10:37] Randall Roth: How does that fit into this?
[00:10:39] Harold Masumoto: That's about 124 acre parcel that's right uh along the beach in the Campbell industrial area. And it's under lease to Hawaii meat for I don't know, another 25 or 30 years and uh the feedlot operator, Hawaii Meat Company, had announced to all the ranchers that they were going to close their operations because it wasn't economical and their land owner, Campbell Estate had taken them to arbitration, I believe, at that particular time as to what the lease rental should be. So, of course, they went to the legislature and uh put pressure on the legislature and the legislature was trying to respond uh on uh trying to solve the uh the the ranchers' problems here. And of course it was interesting because I think the legislature was quite split. And this a little aside. I would you know, you would have thought that the uh the friends of the ranchers would be in favor of something uh you know, keeping the feedlot going, but in this particular case and I still remember the late Michael Keefe uh from the Big Island From the Big Island, raised questions about trying to assist ranchers. You know, it's says and if the ranchers can't make it on their own, why assist them? Um, we have a state policy that says, you know, we should try and help agriculture. So it that's a that's an issue that I think is it's there. But they there so there were three parcels of land and I think if I remember correctly and if the advertiser people are here, as the advertiser editorial said way back in 1990 or whenever thing this this thing was uh ex uh handled, it said it met three public purposes. Number one, we need a racetrack because it keeps people off the streets, you know, hot rods off the streets.
[00:12:13] Randall Roth: Okay, now the racetrack, that's not the feedlot.
[00:12:17] Harold Masumoto: No.
[00:12:18] Randall Roth: Okay, let's let First of all, I'm I'm trying to figure out how the feedlot land fit into this situation.
[00:12:23] Harold Masumoto: Well, what happened is that in the discussion with Campbell Estate, in trying to settle the condemnation action starting with a condemnation action over 2,000 acres, uh, Campbell Estate came back and said, look, we'd like to give you some other land instead of the land that the state wanted, which was the big open acreage of sugarcane land. Mhm. Um, then when uh, the airport's people started looking for a land to exchange with uh with with the land owners at the Ulen street area, you know, the question came, okay, do you have any land that can be used for relocation purposes? They threw out the racetrack which was agriculturally zoned, agriculturally uh uh uh classified, not zoned but classified. Also the Campbell estate wanted you to take the race track take a look at it because they had a lease with the city and county of Honolulu.
[00:13:15] Randall Roth: Okay, so so you're talking to Campbell Estate because you're in condemnation actions with them. Plus, they own all the land out there anyway. Uh, you need to find some land to give to the folks who own the land near the airport. You need that land near the airport, but you need to get some land to to give to them. And uh and now this feedlot is out there.
[00:13:36] Harold Masumoto: Feedlot, right.
[00:13:37] Randall Roth: How does that fit into this?
[00:13:39] Harold Masumoto: That's about a 124 acre parcel. That's right uh along the beach in the Campbell industrial area. And it's under lease to Hawaii Meat for I don't know, to another 25 or 30 years and uh the feedlot operators, Hawaii Meat Company, had announced to all the ranchers that they were going to close their operations because it wasn't economical. And their land owner, Campbell Estate, had taken them to arbitration, I believe, at that particular time as to what the lease rental should be. So, of course, they went to the legislature and put pressure on the legislature and the legislature was trying to respond, uh, on uh, trying to solve the uh the the ranchers' problems here. And of course, it was interesting because I think the legislature was quite split. And this a little aside, I would, you know, you would have thought that the uh the friends of the ranchers would be in favor of something, uh you know, keeping the feedlot going. But in this particular case, I still remember the late Michael Keefe uh from the Big Island, from the Big Island, raised questions about trying to assist ranchers. You know, if any if the ranchers can't make it on their own, why assist them? Um, we have a state policy that says, you know, we should try and help agriculture. So that's a that's an issue that I think is it's there. But there were three parcels of land and I think if I remember correctly, and if the advertising people are here, as the advertiser editorial said way back in 1990 or whenever this this thing was uh uh handled, it said it met three public purposes. Number one, we need a racetrack because it keeps people off the streets. You know, hot rods off the streets.
[00:14:13] Randall Roth: Okay. Now the racetrack, that's not the feedlot.
[00:14:16] Harold Masumoto: No.
[00:14:17] Randall Roth: Okay. Let's let First of all, I'm I'm trying to figure out how the feedlot land fit into this situation.
[00:14:23] Harold Masumoto: Well, what happened is that in the discussion with Campbell Estate, in trying to settle the condemnation action, starting with a condemnation action over 2,000 acres, uh Campbell Estate came back and said, look, we'd like to give you some other land instead of the land that the state wanted, which was the big open acreage of sugarcane land. Mhm. Um, then when uh, the airport's people started looking for a land to exchange with uh with with the land owners at the Ulen street area, you know, the question came, okay, do you have any land that can be used for relocation purposes? They threw out the racetrack which was agriculturally zoned, agriculturally uh uh uh classified, not zoned, but classified. Also the Campbell estate wanted you to take the race track take a look at it because they had a lease with the city and county of Honolulu.
[00:15:15] Randall Roth: Okay. So so you're talking to Campbell Estate because you're in condemnation actions with them. Plus, they own all the land out there anyway. Uh, you need to find some land to give to the folks who own the land near the airport. You need that land near the airport, but you need to get some land to to give to them. And uh and now this feedlot is out there.
[00:15:35] Harold Masumoto: Okay, and that's just kind of thrown into this because it involves a different sort of land than the sugarcane land. Right, and the ranchers jump in and said you know please get State solve the problem for us and keep the feedlot going at all costs.
[00:15:52] Randall Roth: I see and so uh the the goal here was to end up with that continuing to be used as a feedlot as opposed to being developed or whatever the case may be.
[00:16:01] Harold Masumoto: Right.
[00:16:02] Randall Roth: So you've got three public purposes. You know, you've got helping the agriculturalist, uh looking for industrial land for for the state and number three, looking for big open space lands. And number well, it's four actually, trying to keep trying to prevent uh Campbell estate from having a land monopoly in Ewa and in West Oahu. Okay. So, even our friends at the Advertiser in their uh editorial were basically saying this made sense.
[00:16:26] Harold Masumoto: Yeah, I think they did. I'm fairly certain they did. Okay. Let me let me you know, the other thing I like to point out on all of this is that um it was the the discussions with Campbell Estate was that, okay, all three parcels at one time, or nothing at all. And uh that's the way the condemnation was settled. Okay. It was a condemnation action that was in court and where everyone was looking for a settlement on a condemnation action rather than going through a long, protracted uh litigation.
[00:16:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Now, you describe it as though the Campbell Estate was in a in a position of of real power. And I'm not sure why, but I have this mental picture of the state being the 400-pound gorilla wanting to dance, and uh and the Campbell Estate uh not having nearly the power in those negotiations that the state had. Is my picture wrong?
[00:17:15] Harold Masumoto: No, your picture well the State had the power, we had the power, obviously, okay. And when the proposal was made, would it make and we looked at the issue, what Does it make sense to own industrial land to relocate the Ulen Street tenants. Mhm. and in the Campbell Estate area. Uh, the question was, okay, if the price is right, obviously, right?
[00:17:35] Randall Roth: The price is right.
[00:17:36] Harold Masumoto: So you look at the land and say, what kind of land is it? It's agriculturally classified agriculture, but we know that the state can urbanize that land. Mhm. We also know that the county city and county owns that land. Yeah. So, it wouldn't be difficult to upzone that land and get it to do the things that we wanted to do.
[00:18:06] Randall Roth: So, I assume that's that's how you would explain what what has um been written in the newspapers recently about the assessed value of that land being much, much less than $65 million. Um, somebody reading that article would say, well, the state paid far more than what the land is worth. And you're saying, well, it was only worth a million or two in agricultural use, but in other uses, it was worth $65 million or more. Is that uh the Is that the way it's being looked at now?
[00:19:07] Harold Masumoto: Well, I think only the market will tell, right, over time. Okay. And uh but that's why you're saying the assessed value wasn't relevant at that time?
[00:19:14] Harold Masumoto: Assessed value versus appraised value, now there's a difference. Taxes, you know, tax the the uh the tax assessor that's a certain price. But then when you go through an appraisal for condemnation purposes, you end up with a different price. You know, if you put it to 12 people, they may come out with a different number. Let me give an example, okay. As part of this this uh package of uh three parcels of land, the state acquired 1,100 acres. Now that 1,100 acres has been given away by the legislature and the state government already. 500 acres has been dedicated to the University of Hawaii. 200 acres went to the Department of Hawaiian Home lands as I remember after I left the office state planning. And 500 acres were used to exchange with lands up in the Wahiawa area, the Galbraith land exchange. Now, the interesting thing about it, I think the state has already made its money back. Let me give the reason why. In the exchange, 500 acres, which was part of that package of $90 million worth of land that was purchased from acquired from Campbell Estate. 500 acres was exchanged for 2,200 acres up in Wahiawa. And the I, because of appearing on the show, I called my friends at the Department of Land and Natural Resources and I asked for a copy of what they call a board submission. Uh, you have to understand, no one buys land or you don't exchange land, even a square foot of land without the board of land and natural resources reviewing and approving it. So they have a submission, what they call a submission that was submitted to the board. And I note that on the submission, uh they had $42 million uh shown as the appraised value. They went through an appraisal of the uh Galbraith lands for 2,000 somewhat acres. Well, the state gave up only 500 acres of state land for that. 500 part of the 1,100 acres or 1,300 acres they were acquired for Campbell Estate. Guess what happened? On the acquisition, if you divided it up into three parcels, racetrack parcel and the feedlot parcel and the 1,100 acres uh what the state did is tripled its money on the 1,100 acres already. Okay. You know, it's so you can't do that.
[00:19:00] Harold Masumoto: And [unintelligible — audio glitch] I wish I started talking about the wall in the street. So anyway the airport's division wants to build this large large uh and I can tell you this now because I'm no longer part of the administration and I I would never been able tell you these kind of things, you know, when I was part of the administration and uh and uh and trying to defend what they're doing. But they're trying to build a large airport, international airport, put in a people mover and all those other things so they make investments in land, they invest in design of a people mover, all these other things, right?
[00:19:32] Harold Masumoto: What happens? Two or three years ago they decide that the tourism, doesn't coming in as fast as they thought it was and growing as fast as they thought it was growing. Number one, number two, um the federal government provides more customs inspectors I guess what what is at the airport. Right. Uh the Japanese flights aren't coming in the way they used to come in all at between 6:00 in the morning and 8:00 in the morning, so the need for the uh for the international terminal kind of subsides.
[00:20:02] Harold Masumoto: So now, they've made large large investments for for land. They've acquired two large parcels of land and spent quite a bit of money for the people mover and design of the international terminal, etc., and I would suspect the amount is spent is is larger than the acquisition of the airfield and and the racetrack.
[00:20:22] Randall Roth: Oh my. So with hindsight we can see, we would have been better off not doing any of this, but at the time you're saying that you were addressing at least four public policy purposes etc.
[00:20:35] Harold Masumoto: And the point I'm trying to make is that and this is this is you know something that you know my people that uh talk about land always say, land the value of land may go up and down, but in the long run it always stays goes up. Always goes up. Okay. So what we have, if you spent $55 million of to buy land, let's say at in in on the Ewa planes and you spent $60 million designing a people mover, you're never going to use a people mover and the design technology is going to change. It's going to be thrown away basically, that's what happened.
[00:21:11] Harold Masumoto: Whereas on land, you still have it. You still have it. Okay, okay.
[00:21:15] Randall Roth: Well now, and I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Our guest today is Harold Masumoto, and we're talking about a number of things. Right now we're talking about a very complicated land transaction. I've got somebody on the line and and I want to get to her question uh very soon, but I first want to add a little bit of closure to our discussion. And when I say closure, it's out on the table now and listeners are invited to call in their questions or comments.
[00:21:43] Randall Roth: But why is it, Harold, that the Cayetano administration, I think, has been critical of this and they haven't stepped forward and said, well, now this is complicated. You have to realize that. They haven't stepped forward and said, well, there were some public purposes, public policy purposes being served. They haven't stepped forward and said, well, we still got land and we made a heck of a deal on some of these trades and in the long run, we're going to be in great shape. They've given people the impression that, number one, this was an improper diversion of funds that should have stayed at the airport.
[00:22:16] Randall Roth: Number two, they've let people uh have developed the impression and keep the impression that uh that this was a bad deal, $65 million spent on land that wasn't worth anywhere near that amount. In short, they haven't come to your defense or even explained it the way you have. How do you feel about that? What's going on?
[00:22:37] Harold Masumoto: Well, I, yeah, I I'm assuming that uh if they're going to do anything, they're going to be have to um investigate or do whatever they're going to do. And uh I can tell you, no one's talked to me from the administration. No one asked me what happened.
[00:22:50] Randall Roth: Well, as I as I understand it, he's asked his Attorney General uh to look into this.
[00:22:54] Harold Masumoto: And I think it'd be quite beneficial to all of us to clear the air.
[00:22:58] Randall Roth: Okay, you feel as though you can defend everything that's been done.
[00:23:01] Harold Masumoto: Well, it's not it's not my defending. It's the whole administration, state state government. Like, you know, people think that I did it. Well, there's no way Harold Masumoto can buy land and spend all that kind of money, you know. It's it's
[00:23:14] Randall Roth: Harold, you're being modest. I am told that uh that you had an awful lot of power in those days.
[00:23:19] Harold Masumoto: Well, you know what I was? I was a spokesman. I was a negotiator, but everything went back to Department and land and natural resources. So, you know, he to spend money budget in finance has to authorize it. Yeah. uh Airport have to release it.
[00:23:32] Randall Roth: What about the very top? For example, some people have said, you know, we got into this deal because of that race track and Governor Waihee is a real race fan. Is there anything at all to that?
[00:23:42] Harold Masumoto: I don't. Yeah, I don't believe that. You know, I the way I look at it, the people who are running race track right now are losing money. I think they've been to the deaths recently. You know, last since the that group took it over. And I would imagine the insurance premiums are horrendous. And I just can't see that kind of revenues out of that type of operation uh Okay. So I you know I I don't think it's a money maker, so.
[00:24:05] Randall Roth: Well, folks, if you've got questions or comments about uh anything that you would like to address to Harold, give us a call at 955-8821. Especially if you'd like to talk about this airport funds issue, um we'd like to hear from you. We have a lane on the phone and I am told that um, what? Elaine, are you there?
[00:24:24] Elaine: Oh, yes.
[00:24:26] Randall Roth: All right. Elaine, good morning.
[00:24:27] Elaine: Hi, sir. Um, yes, I'm I would like to make a comment. Um, I'm I'm a a student at the University um of Hawaii, and in the College of Education, and I'm um, student teaching this semester. And um, I'm not sure if [unintelligible — audio glitch] probably both aware of um, the situation with um, um, the College of Education? Yeah, and it's accreditation kind of uh on the line.
[00:25:06] Randall Roth: Right, there there are real serious threats to its accreditation as I understand it because of of funding issues and and I'm told uh by the Dean there that that there's going to be a real shortfall in terms of the number of teachers that they can uh prepare um compared to the the demand here in the state. So I know that they've got real challenges there at the College of Education.
[00:25:30] Elaine: And um, I'm I'm really appalled at hearing where our money goes. to construct a racetrack? Um, you know, where are the states priorities?
[00:25:47] Randall Roth: Okay. Harold, I know you're not with the administration now, but you were for eight years. Um, how do you address the concerns of people like Elaine and I think Elaine is uh is voicing concerns of a lot of people in Hawaii. That one word, priorities. It it seemed as though then an awful lot of money was going into airport expansion or whatever, while public education and some other issues that the public was quite concerned about weren't getting um, uh treated quite as well. How do you respond to that?
[00:26:18] Harold Masumoto: It's difficult to respond to uh to issues such as that that's that's been raised right now. Uh I think we just need to communicate better. The uh, the airport funds that was used to buy uh land or develop the international airport. It was used to design the design or build the uh airport are not uh quote public funds in the traditional sense. They're not funds that are come in through through your tax dollars. They're uh earnings from from the uh airport, you know, people that uh there's a a quote landing fee. Every time an airplane lands of so many pounds, uh they pay so many dollars, so many cents a pound.
[00:27:00] Randall Roth: So you're saying that money couldn't have been spent on education, even if you'd wanted to.
[00:27:05] Harold Masumoto: to. Yeah. That's what we're saying. I It takes a congressional act to do that. And uh just a little aside, uh if you may recall, uh the US Congress authorized um the state of Hawaii back in 1988 or 89 to take funds from the airport account and transfer it to the highway account. I think the number amount of money was $450 million. And uh but that, like I said, required a special act of Congress, and the argument here is that the existence of the airports uh you know, causes the traffics to uh increase around the airports and therefore is right to use airport funds to uh to to use for the general purpose, general community.
[00:27:56] Randall Roth: Okay. Elaine, uh thank you for your call. We really appreciate. Thank you very much. We have another caller on the line, Duke from Waikiki. Good morning, Duke.
[00:28:04] Duke: Good morning, Randy. Listen, um I have a a couple questions and this gentleman is the one to ask them to, I believe, since we're trying to cut back on um uh spending, state spending, this gentleman Harold should know uh where he may make the cut if he were still in the position. And one of the the places that I'm kind of concerned about uh is Dbed. You look in the telephone book and and Pritchard even had a cartoon on it this week, of um you look in the telephone book in the white pages and they take up a column and a half of offices and they're a relatively new agency.
[00:28:44] Duke: Is this money being well spent, or should we uh maybe even think of getting rid of Dbed and and folding it into some existing state agencies.
[00:28:55] Randall Roth: Um, Harold, general question, where would you cut, and a real specific question, why not start with Dbed.
[00:29:01] Harold Masumoto: Well, let me start by a caveat here. I was I'm not in a position to do anything and I never was in a position to do anything. You know, I was never in the financial side of the administration. Uh on the other hand, if you ask me, uh are there places that can be cut? I think maybe I I don't want to presuppose or look forward and uh give advice to the new administration because I think they're trying to do a good job and I I hope they do a good job because if they don't do a good job, we're all going to suffer.
[00:29:32] Harold Masumoto: On the other hand, I can look back and say, did we make some mistakes and would they have done something differently and I you know, I I give the uh example of a space port. I think the community is right in raising the questions of whether we should have spent the kind of money we did on a space port.
[00:29:47] Randall Roth: And that was something that the Dbed, Dbed is Department of Business and Economic Development and Tourism. Right.
[00:29:54] Harold Masumoto: So yes, there are things that I think that's going on right now that you can take a look at and decide whether it's worth it or not. I made a decision on I I made a looking back now, I would say, that was one of the mistakes we made, spending all that money we did.
[00:30:08] Randall Roth: What about, and this is an aside I want to come back to Duke in just a minute, what about that race car we spent, what, half million dollars advertising with a race car?
[00:30:17] Harold Masumoto: I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. I I don't, I don't know enough about uh which is a better way of doing spending the half a million dollar on uh I raced 15 seconds on the Super Bowl, maybe 15 seconds on the Super Bowl would have been worth more.
[00:30:30] Randall Roth: I raise that because again some people uh say and maybe this is a cheap shot that uh that was related to the governor's fascination with racing, but we don't know about that. Duke, what do you have to say about Harold's response to your question?
[00:30:42] Duke: Well, I I don't know if that's a easy way out because, you know, it was a specific question on on Dbed. I mean their function is like on tourism. I'm not really sure some of the things that we spend money on in the state really have any effect. I mean like, take tourism in in itself. That's a a large department.
[00:31:05] Randall Roth: Duke, are you suggesting that that we eliminate Dbed?
[00:31:08] Duke: Well, I'm not I'm just asking the question. I saw the cartoon from Pritchard and I mean, he must be basing the cartoon on something. And when I looked in the phone book and saw that it took up a column and a half in the white pages of different uh sub-agencies of Dbed, and I'm thinking of tourism, how we're spending lots of money building the convention center and uh trying to get tourists in here, but at the same time, uh a lot of other municipalities around the world are doing the same thing. I'm not sure if we're just spending a lot of money to stay where we are. Do you do you see what I'm trying to say? If if we really are making a net gain or not.
[00:32:36] Harold Masumoto: logically, rather than specifically, I I think we may probably have to spend money to stay where we are. I think that's part of the concern I think a lot of people have in the economy. But let me get back to something that you raised about uh, you know, the listing of uh the listing of uh activities within the Department of Business, Economic Development that runs a page and a half in the uh in the uh phone book. I know, in my new job at the research corporation, I'm I'm becoming very much aware of it.
[00:33:04] Harold Masumoto: Uh I I I'm very concerned that we have what you call an alphabet soup in the area that I'm concerned of working in right now, all these uh research activities and research and uh technology transfer entities, you know, we have NELHA, HC, H High tech Development Corporation, Hawaii Inc, etc, etc. And maybe you're right. Maybe it's time that uh we consolidate some of these activities. I know one thing, it sure make my job easier so I don't have to deal with so many people. And you know what, if it makes my job easier, it'll probably make it easier for the US government as well. Okay.
[00:33:38] Randall Roth: Thank you, thank you very much. Thank you for your call. You're welcome back. Uh I might mention we're we're going to try to get Sage Iya, the new uh director of Dbed on our show soon and and we'll get his thoughts on all of that. Uh just a reminder, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and I'm here with Harold Masumoto. Harold is uh currently the executive director of the Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii, and uh during the or during the Waihee administration was the Director of State Planning. Your calls are welcome, the number is 955-8821.
[00:34:12] Randall Roth: Well, one of the things that Duke raised uh led us to this suggestion that maybe we could do some consolidating. Um evidently, Cayetano in his state of the state address, not evidently, he did suggest maybe that some consolidating, especially in the area of land use regulation, etc. was in order. Uh that's your area. Good idea or bad idea?
[00:34:35] Harold Masumoto: Well, let me kind of answer that in general first and then maybe we get back to that specifically. Can remind me if I don't answer that question. I um I uh I started working for state government much too long ago, over 30 years ago, and I uh we've gone through the fiscal crisis that we have right now prior in previous administrations.
[00:34:55] Harold Masumoto: I think every 10 years or so you have a situation that we have right now. And uh, I remember that in the 1963-64 fiscal crisis, uh there was a major, major restructuring of government, and people forget this. And I I think what everyone is suggesting, I think what Governor Cayetano is suggesting is that maybe we should take the fiscal crisis as an opportunity to restructure government.
[00:35:20] Harold Masumoto: Let me give you uh some background on that as best as I recall it, because it was over 30 30 years ago. If people who are of my age or older will remember that uh the schools, public schools, maintenance, construction and maintenance of public schools were responsibility of the counties, and the uh uh maintenance and operations of hospitals, uh were of government hospitals were responsibility of the counties.
[00:35:45] Harold Masumoto: To do that, the counties used to make a retain well the counties used to get three and a half this well the excise tax was three and a half percent, I believe, and what the tax director was doing, used to separate the amount, keep 3% for the state and give half a percent to the counties, and the counties were using that plus the real property tax and other earnings to maintain schools etc. What happened because they had a fiscal crisis way back in the 19 in the 1960s, the legislature and the councils got together and redivided responsibilities, restructured government.
[00:38:15] Speaker 2: For better or worse?
[00:38:17] Harold Masumoto: For better or worse, and maybe it's the and what happened, of course, is the states took over all of the school maintenance and construction, all of the education, our statewide responsibility, and took over the hospitals. Now, we're talking about changing again, right? We're talking about maybe privatizing the hospitals, and it maybe it's time to do that.
[00:38:34] Speaker 2: So maybe uh Governor Cayetano, instead of focusing on on the lemon, should be making lemonade? That uh he should see this as as opportunity, this this fiscal crisis?
[00:38:43] Harold Masumoto: Oh, I'm pretty sure he's a bright person and can see all of those opportunities.
[00:38:48] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, we've got some callers on the line. First, Pauline from Kailua. Good morning, Pauline.
[00:38:52] Pauline: Good morning. Mr. Masumoto impressed me a lot during the Waihee administration as as being a a pretty smart man that could really cut through a lot of different opinions and come up with good solutions.
[00:39:06] Harold Masumoto: Boy, boy, you're making me feel good now.
[00:39:09] Speaker 2: Even the people who didn't like the job he was doing said he was a very smart man and sometimes they they didn't like that part, but uh at any rate, go ahead.
[00:39:17] Pauline: Right. Um, now that he can he's been sort of telling us the truth as to how we've gotten to a couple of places, how does he feel about the future of Barber's point? Where should that really go? Not where is it going right now or how did we get to where we are right now. But what does he really think the best use is for Barber's point?
[00:39:40] Harold Masumoto: I um, I don't think there's any question about what my individual my personal position is on that and I I had a hard time um stifling that I guess when I was chairman of the Barber's Point reuse Committee. I I think that uh, first of all, you started with a public purpose. You know, is there a public purpose for that those lands and uh I think that uh the state of Hawaii specifically the sitting county if I know needs a reliever airport.
[00:40:04] Harold Masumoto: As I told some of my friends, I said I just don't want to be say, you know, when there's a major accident at the airport and say, look, you know, I was really part of that. I I I know I should have uh pushed harder to have a reliever airport on Oahu.
[00:40:19] Speaker 2: Oh, so you think it's unsafe now, or
[00:40:21] Harold Masumoto: Well, you don't know, eventually it maybe, you know, you can't tell, right? You've got a large airport military use, civilian use and individual civilian planes all using the same runways in International.
[00:40:33] Speaker 2: What do you think is going to happen? Pauline was specifically interested in your thoughts about the future. Is that uh going to happen?
[00:40:40] Harold Masumoto: I don't know. I'm no longer in the position. But uh you know, if you ask me, my personal opinion is there should be a reliever airport. I did I we need a reliever airport. It seems logical that Barber's point be it.
[00:40:52] Pauline: How are we going to get there because it doesn't it seems like the local community is or at least the vocal local community is against that.
[00:41:01] Speaker 2: Nobody wants uh an airport in their backyard, huh?
[00:41:03] Harold Masumoto: But you know, that's what public policy decision makers are for. You're supposed to make decisions that in the best interests of people, whether, you know, you have a large vocal sector that doesn't like it. You know, and so it's uh it's part of the price of being in a position to make decisions.
[00:41:20] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:41:21] Harold Masumoto: You know I that's why I like to come up here on shows like this because it gives me an opportunity to kind of make comments without having to live with my decisions.
[00:41:29] Speaker 2: Okay. Pauline, thank you for your question.
[00:41:31] Pauline: Thank you.
[00:41:32] Speaker 2: We have another caller on the line. Ed from Makiki. Good morning, Ed.
[00:41:35] Ed: Good morning, Randy. Thanks again for the opportunity, and Harold, I've observed you in action over the years. I think you've had a tough job. You did the best you could with it. But instead of flogging the past on the broadest possible scale, where do you see Hawaii's economy headed?
[00:41:52] Harold Masumoto: Where do I see it heading? I I don't like what I see, actually. Um and you know, Randy probably can understand this. It probably is it probably has to do with the US Constitution. The way the Hawaii economy major sector of Hawaii economy is construction. And you know, to keep construction going, you do need to have more people come here. That's why you have more construction going, and personally, if I could find a way to, as I say, raise the gang plank so no, you know, additional people couldn't come here, I'd be in favor of that, but I I don't think the US Constitution allows us to do that.
[00:42:31] Speaker 2: Harold, some people would say that that raising the cost of living is the way you raise the gang plank, and some people think that that's something that the Waihee administration did knowing that it would hold down population.
[00:42:45] Harold Masumoto: I I wouldn't say that it was knowingly or deliberate, but uh but you know, I think population growth is going to be a major major problem for Hawaii. And you know, we've got the choice: more population growth to keep the economy going or cut back on population, which means we have to learn to do with less. Uh and you know, when the in the early 80s, I I I understand the numbers, uh the construction industry had about 18,000 employees. In the late 80s, I think they were up to about 32,000, 33,000, uh they've cut back a little now, of course, people are carpenters on the bench, etc.
[00:43:22] Harold Masumoto: But you know, we have a real problem in that area. Uh you asked me the general question, where do I see the economy going. Uh I think it's going to stabilize and uh we are going to not have the kind of growth that we had in the past, and and it's correct I think, right.
[00:43:37] Speaker 2: When we had uh Jim Dator from the University of Hawaii who's an expert on uh on futures studies, uh he suggested that that our community here in Hawaii hasn't decided which direction to go, that there's this fork in the road and it just can't decide which direction to go, Harold.
[00:43:53] Harold Masumoto: I I agree with Jim largely on that. I think we want economic growth, but we don't want population growth, and I what I'm suggesting here is I think it's going to be tough to have both. You have to give up one or the other.
[00:44:05] Speaker 2: And somebody's got to step forward. Somebody in a position of leadership and say, here's the direction I'm going. Elect me, support me if you want to go in this direction, but has somebody done that yet?
[00:44:16] Harold Masumoto: I think the new governor's trying to do that.
[00:44:19] Speaker 2: Which direction Which direction is he going?
[00:44:21] Harold Masumoto: I believe on the side of population slowdown. That's the way I read him, number one. Number two, I think he's doing something. If I may just uh just add something that uh if I I don't know if he's doing it, uh consciously or not. But he's doing something and I go back to what happened in 1963, 64. Uh, he's doing something that may turn out to be good in the sense that I think he's trying to redistribute population. If you look in the state plan, everybody agrees that's a good way to get things to do.
[00:44:51] Harold Masumoto: But, of course, no one can agree. No people on the big island just don't want anymore people, people on Kauai, I don't want any more people so you know, is a fine redistribute population, but somewhere else, right?
[00:45:02] Speaker 2: Okay. Ed, did uh did that respond to your question?
[00:45:04] Ed: No, it's it's the expected answer, and I think was very good and thank you.
[00:45:07] Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, Ed. We have another caller from Makiki. Ken, good morning.
[00:45:12] Ken: Good morning, sir.
[00:45:13] Speaker 2: What can we do for you?
[00:45:14] Ken: Well, I just wanted to throw a wrench in the whole stew of debate regarding uh where we should go or where we shouldn't go.
[00:45:23] Speaker 2: Oh, good. We like a wrench thrown into this. It makes it more interesting. Go ahead, Ken.
[00:45:27] Ken: Okay, it has to do with the uh principles and concepts in our educational institution. In other words, to me, uh it appears that the whole concept of educating our people have been on the basis as a labor. Why have we not ventured forth into the area of entrepreneurism because a men, as they say, can catch fish by himself if you show him how to put a hook on a line. Mhm.
[00:46:04] Speaker 2: Let's let's ask Harold to respond to that, Ken. Harold, do you feel that that we have had a system that is focused on on uh making people better workers as opposed to entrepreneurs?
[00:46:16] Harold Masumoto: You know, we're venturing in the area that I know very little about and I don't this is an area I don't even have an opinion on, and I'm fairly opinionated. Uh so I really would like would hesitate answering anything along the lines.
[00:46:28] Speaker 2: You know, Ken, I have the feeling that that your question is an awfully good one, and we're going to have a show in the next month or two on education and we're going to have a a policymaker and an expert from the Department of Education, and I'm going to save that question or if if you're listening, I hope you call in and ask it again. If not, I will ask it for you. I think that's a real good question.
[00:46:49] Ken: Thank you, sir.
[00:46:50] Speaker 2: Thank you. We have a caller from Manoa. Mike from Manoa, good morning.
[00:46:53] Mike: Oh, good morning. Uh general question for Harold about the Office of State Planning. Uh as I understand it, the Office of State Planning was created uh by the Waihee administration uh from the old Department of Business Economic Development and planning. The planning part was taken out and moved to the Governor's office. And uh, Harold, I believe you were the first director of the Office of State Planning?
[00:47:18] Harold Masumoto: Wrong.
[00:47:19] Mike: Oh, excuse me.
[00:47:21] Harold Masumoto: But I was the first director of state planning under in the resurrected Department uh Office of State Planning.
[00:47:30] Speaker 2: I think Mike's close enough.
[00:47:31] Harold Masumoto: Well, no, no, I think people forget. Let me let me I again historically. Okay. And after statehood in 1969, well 59, um you know, we had 18 departments and there was a Department of planning.
[00:47:46] Mike: Oh, in the old Territorial government.
[00:47:47] Harold Masumoto: No, no, no, State government. Uh in fact, I I just I just saw the uh uh former one of the former directors office of uh not the department of planning uh just the other day and what happened is that somewhere in the 70s, I believe, they consolidated, put it together.
[00:48:04] Mike: Oh, with D bed and D bed, yeah, and what happened. And then they split it again in under the Waihee administration.
[00:48:09] Speaker 2: Mike, what was your point?
[00:48:10] Mike: Uh, for example, the uh Pat Saiki campaign had proposed eliminating uh office of state planning uh on the basis that it wasn't needed and could be folded back into uh into D bed. Uh what would be your uh analysis of that uh especially in this time when people are looking at downsizing government and all I'll get I'll get off the phone. Now.
[00:48:33] Speaker 2: No, no, let me tell you, I I I it's a good question. I'll tell you why. I I I I I would be afraid of that right now.
[00:48:40] Harold Masumoto: Cuz state planning was more than economic development. And Department of Business Economic Development's primary mission is the economic development of the state of Hawaii, and I think we needed a balance and that's was one of the reasons I think uh Governor Waihee pushed for it.
[00:48:54] Harold Masumoto: And as you may recall that I at the early uh years of the Waihee administration, I was being uh attacked because I was trying to do things like put uh substantial acreages of land in the uh conservation district, etc., etc., to prevent development. And uh you know, if if if planning was under Department of Business Economic Development, I would sense that the their their uh balance would have been a little more on the economic development side rather conservation side.
[00:49:21] Speaker 2: You see Debed [unintelligible — audio glitch] proponent of the business sector, right? Right.
[00:49:26] Harold Masumoto: I would assume that their mission is advocacy of of the business sector, right. Right. And planning should be something that encompasses more than that. More More balance, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that. Thank you very much.
[00:49:37] Speaker 2: Thank you, Mike. You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and my guest this morning is Harold Masumoto. We're talking about anything that callers are interested in having uh Harold talk about. Harold currently is the executive director of the Research Corporation of the University of Hawaii, and for about eight years was the director of state planning for the Waihee administration. Harold, I don't want to use the word uh regret, right? None of us want to regret anything. We just want to learn from uh things that didn't work out quite like we had hoped they would work out.
[00:50:09] Speaker 2: Uh, you mentioned the spaceport a little bit ago. Uh any other things that looking back on you you learn something from and a nice way of saying maybe you would have done it differently if you'd known then what you know now.
[00:50:21] Harold Masumoto: Well, I I I think if I knew back then, I would have spent more time appearing on shows such as this. So, you know, you provide a forum to you can let people say what they want to you know and you can respond to people.
[00:50:31] Speaker 2: You know, I'm really surprised that that you would say that. Is that because now there there seems to be a lot of cynicism. There seems to be a growing criticism, if you will, of politicians and and bureaucrats and whatnot. Is that because there hasn't been as much public discussion of these issues as there could have been?
[00:50:48] Harold Masumoto: I think all of us have watched Newt Gingrich, and I you know, I think we've all learned from him. He's learned how to use the media, and I think most of us just don't know how to use the media.
[00:50:57] Speaker 2: Wait a minute. You're using you're using my show, Harold?
[00:50:59] Harold Masumoto: I'm not using your show in that sense, but, you know, you need to get your your views, you need people need to understand why you're doing things and get your point of view. And uh we I think we we rely we were passive about all of that. I think uh that's something that uh I think like I said Newt Gingrich is very good at. He's been very offensive about it. Not offensive in the sense of being offensive but uh taking the offense taking the offense type. But if you ask me about specifically is there anything I really regret, I tell you what I really regret, failure on mass transit.
[00:51:31] Harold Masumoto: And you know I I told you about the airport and you know I just don't want to be known as the guy who didn't push the airport at Barber's point and therefore, you know, there's an accident I'm I won't be able to sleep at night. But I I do really regret that on the mass transit issue we just didn't handle that bad better. You know we we should have handled that better because of traffic is going to be horrendous in Hawaii.
[00:51:52] Speaker 2: Now when you say you didn't handle it well, is the problem that you simply turned it over to Mayor Fasi and got out of his way or You said that, I didn't. Okay. Let's take a caller. We have uh Renee from Makakilo. Renee, good morning.
[00:52:06] Renee: Good morning. Uh I haven't heard any discussion about military land use uh on Oahu. I wonder what Harold's opinions are about Kahoolawe, Oahu, uh excuse me, Bellows uh just open that subject up for discussion.
[00:52:21] Harold Masumoto: Good question. Good question. That's uh an area that I was uh quite intimately involved in. Um I think uh if we could have had gotten Kahoolawe back and maintain the training areas for the military, I think there would have been a good compromise, but it was one or the other. And uh we got Kahoolawe back for for the uh for the people of Hawaii, and I think that's a good thing.
[00:52:42] Renee: Did you say it should have been maintained for training?
[00:52:45] Harold Masumoto: Well, no, I said that if we could maintain the training as well as get it back, that would make a lot of sense, but you know, it had to be one or the other, it couldn't be both so, you know, it just happens that my think Hawaii gained on that issue. Uh on the other hand, uh you know, we have other training areas. Uh the one that concerns me the most right now, or not concerns me now, but I still worry about things is uh the Pacific missile range.
[00:53:09] Harold Masumoto: It's a it's a very very important uh training area for the military, and the military still is a major contributor to the to the economic sector in in the state of Hawaii, and uh like you know, things like that I think should be maintained. On the other hand, I think uh Bellows, I I've been out there a couple of a year ago and I my military friends probably won't like me for saying this, but I see very little strategic or military value in Bellows [unintelligible — audio glitch] uh military base.
[00:53:43] Harold Masumoto: I also think that there might be some consolidations on Oahu. I I just can't see uh uh Schafter being maintained the way it is for Schafter. And then the the Schofield Barracks also up there, uh Camp Smith.
[00:53:56] Speaker 2: So so you're saying it needs to be looked at, a a close look.
[00:53:59] Harold Masumoto: Oh, and and uh the US Congress had set up a procedure, the base closure procedure. They go through and look at all military bases and they rank them. Uh and I think this is where we I think run some risk. We because if we don't provide training areas, they may say that it should be a lower on a priority and they should be closed.
[00:54:17] Speaker 2: Is this getting the kind of attention that it as I listen to you, it's clear this needs to get some attention. Is it getting it?
[00:54:23] Harold Masumoto: No. I uh Who's Whose ball should that be to run with? Whose whose are you bringing up? I think the press. Okay. Let me tell you why because I remember I remember about two years ago uh basically when the raceway issue arose and I we were meeting with some of the reporters and you know we talked about this kind of discussion. What other issues should they be worried about. And I brought out and said look you get people should be worried about Barber's point because that's going to be an issue. You ought to need to worry about military land use because that's an issue.
[00:54:53] Harold Masumoto: It's tied in to the Hawaiian sovereignty movement as well because if you look at most of the military lands, they were seated lands taken over by the military. Barber's point was the only one that was purchased not only but it's the largest parcel of land that was purchased by the military.
[00:55:07] Speaker 2: So you're suggesting if if the media doesn't make it an issue then it doesn't get the attention it should get?
[00:55:12] Harold Masumoto: That's right.
[00:55:14] Speaker 2: Okay. Renee, thank you for your question.
[00:55:16] Renee: Thank you.
[00:55:18] Speaker 2: Um let's carry that theme on just a little bit further, Harold. Uh how would you grade the media in Hawaii and another way of asking the same question. Um how well do you think it covered the activities that you were a part of over the last eight years?
[00:55:35] Harold Masumoto: In the most part, I think if you I like to ask I'd like to assume that your question is do I think they were fair to the Waihee administration. I think they were fair for the first six years. I think they didn't understand uh the Waihee administration as well as they could have understood it. I think what you have is a you had is a governor who was active, very active. You know, I I still remember the discussion with him once and uh I went up and said, sorry Governor, I made a mistake.
[00:56:02] Harold Masumoto: And I remember he's telling me, you know, Harold, I I prefer you telling me you made a mistake because you did something rather than you coming up and say, I'm sorry, and this is what happened because I failed to do something. You know his his theory, I think, the way he acted and the way he expected most of us to move, is that you're you know the error of a error of commission was a lot better for him than error of a mission. Mhm. And you know, and I think that's a reflection of what the public expected of him.
[00:56:28] Harold Masumoto: Cuz if you remember, the prior administration before him was being accused by the press of failing to do a lot of things. So he was reacting, right? Right. And in fact, that's why he was probably elected, because he said, I'll do these things. Right. And I think the administration you got the same situation, right? They were respecting the past administration.
[00:57:00] Harold Masumoto: You know, people say, 'Okay, this is what he did in year one, this is what he did in year two, this is what he did in year three, he's going to do these things.' And then about the year six and seven, he says, 'Look, I can't start things anymore. I just don't have time to finish them.'
[00:57:14] Randall Roth: So, focus shifts. So you're suggesting that maybe Governor Cayetano has started off on the right foot by telling people, 'I can't do anything because of this fiscal crisis,' with low expectations, nobody is going to be disappointed?
[00:57:26] Harold Masumoto: I, I really can't answer that.
[00:57:27] Randall Roth: You didn't say that, either.
[00:57:28] Harold Masumoto: I didn't say that, either, but, uh, you know, it's just, it's interesting because I think politicians and elected officials respond to the public. And I think you have these expectations that if you can't meet the expectations, people are going to start attacking, attacking you.
[00:57:42] Randall Roth: Okay. We have a caller from Hawaii Kai. Bob, you're on the air.
[00:57:46] Bob: Uh, thank you. Um, my question is dealing with, uh, Barber's point also, but I'm calling about the deep draft harbor. Uh, when that was constructed, I went to look in the, uh, state data book for the, uh, amount of freight that was arriving via the, what they called then the Barge Harbor and it was zero. And I went just this week to look and see how much freight is arriving in the, uh, deep draft harbor and it is also zero. And we've spent a lot of money on that place and I wonder, uh, and the planning aspect, what was, uh, what was the plan?
[00:58:21] Bob: Were we going to try and get freight arriving there, or what? I mean, it's not being used for that and I see that they're going to do some more work on the harbor.
[00:58:28] Randall Roth: Harold, what do you think?
[00:58:30] Harold Masumoto: This is something that I, I got into after three-fourths of all the decisions have been made, I think. Well, I would say maybe 90% of decisions have been made. My understanding is that it was supposed to be a deep-draft harbor with, uh, you know, the major container ships going in. The problem, as I understand it, is that they didn't do enough engineering and there's a surge there. And the, uh, large ships are reluctant, the pilots are reluctant to take large ships in. Uh, so my understanding right now is that there, there are studies underway, uh, funded by the US Corp of Engineers to look for the solutions, uh, for all of that.
[00:59:11] Harold Masumoto: Now, you know, we have two carriers now, two major carriers coming in, American APL and uh, I'll see them rather, C-Land and uh, Matson.
[00:59:19] Harold Masumoto: My understanding is that APL, American President Lines, which has a number of ships which are, uh, which have been fun, I guess, funded by, subsidized by the, on some federal act, and, uh, their their restrictions, I think, end in 1997, so all of us, of course, as a consumer, I'm hoping that it become a player in the market as well, you know, to, so that costs of, uh, goods and services coming to Hawaii will go down, and, uh, maybe you'll have some diversion of, uh, of a harbor use to Barber's Point if the harbor is built.
[00:59:55] Harold Masumoto: I do know that, uh, the, uh, the backland, you know, the land that you need for storage, the containers, and all those other things are there now. Uh, this was a difficult negotiation with Campbell Estate way back in 1987. I remember that discussion.
[01:00:09] Randall Roth: You probably know those folks at the Campbell Estate real well.
[01:00:12] Harold Masumoto: Yeah, as you say, they don't, probably they don't like me very well.
[01:00:16] Randall Roth: Well, I, I didn't say that. I don't know.
[01:00:19] Harold Masumoto: But but, you know, there there is a quite a bit of backland there now, so the conditions are there if you can solve the engineering problem and they can find the, you know, they can the the US Corp of Engineers will provide the funding for making that into full working harbor.
[01:00:32] Randall Roth: Yeah, I'll I'll be keeping an eye on the state data book, which is very entertaining. That's the one section I look at every year when it comes out is the, uh, the amount of trade that crosses that harbor. And it's still zero, and I, I'm waiting to see when it becomes some number in there under the freight.
[01:00:45] Harold Masumoto: It's going to be a number of years before that happens.
[01:00:47] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, thank you, Bob. We just have a a couple of minutes left and in case you tuned in late, this is the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guest today is Harold Masumoto. Uh, we've got time to take one more quick call, and then I'm going to get Harold's thoughts on some topics that that we haven't raised that he thinks perhaps we should address. Uncle Leslie from Maui. Good morning, Uncle Leslie.
[01:01:09] Uncle Leslie: Good morning. Good morning, Harold. Uh, That's great. Right on, uh. I want to congratulate Harold for coming forward as one that has been taking critical positions in the, uh, Cayetano administration, and it was a tough job. He really helped the situation in the toughs decision making.
[01:01:30] Randall Roth: Now Leslie, are you literally his uncle?
[01:01:32] Uncle Leslie: Oh, yes. I'm uncle, we all uncles with each other, okay?
[01:01:35] Randall Roth: Okay.
[01:01:35] Uncle Leslie: The only thing I think, uh, I think Harold is doing a great job, and I think the station should also invite the new person that is taking Harold's job in Cayetano's administration, so that this kind of issues can now be related to the general public and bring the issues out time to time by the new director in charge of, uh, what Harold would just, uh, be replaced with and, uh, hey, thanks to the station for having this opportunity for, uh, having this kind of input.
[01:02:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Harold, I don't know about you, but I think Uncle Leslie's had some brilliant things to say.
[01:02:07] Harold Masumoto: Well, Leslie is a friend of mine.
[01:02:09] Randall Roth: I I had that feeling. Thank you very much, Leslie.
[01:02:11] Uncle Leslie: Thank you. Thanks, Harold.
[01:02:13] Randall Roth: Harold, we're just down to the last minute. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you would like to, to mention?
[01:02:19] Harold Masumoto: Yeah, I let because I'm back at the university and I, uh, I, uh, I I told you earlier about the restructuring of government. You know, up to this year, I was always opposed to, uh, the proposals that the university hold on to their, uh, uh, earnings, such as tuition. Whereas, all most other major universities that the university holds onto the tuition, and the legislature supplements the appropriation. And the reason I was opposed to, uh, the university holding onto tuition is that whenever you have a fiscal crisis, the legislature will say, give us some money, raise tuition.
[01:02:54] Randall Roth: Oh, I see. Right, and I was in favor of low tuition.
[01:02:56] Harold Masumoto: But I think we probably reached that stage of developing in a society that we really ought to reconsider that position. I, I personally have changed now. I think maybe the university should be allowed to keep all these revenues, and like University of Washington, and Oregon, and California and everywhere else.
[01:03:11] Randall Roth: Okay. That sounds great. Harold, this has been very interesting. Thank you for coming in.
[01:03:14] Harold Masumoto: Thank you.
[01:03:15] Randall Roth: Today's show was produced by Susie Roth with technical support from Jeff Ailadi. We hope you'll tune in next week, when again we'll be talking with local newsmakers about issues critical to the future of Hawaii. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
[01:03:26] Speaker 2: You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show.
[01:03:28] Speaker 2: I'm Randy Roth, Aloha.

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