Why People Hate Government
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-07-16
Guests: Alex Santiago (State Representative); Norma Wong (political insider); Kem Lowry (Professor, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:04:38

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Good morning. Radio show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning from 8 to 9 on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM. And then rebroadcast each Sunday evening from 8 to 9 on KIFO 1380 AM. This radio show is entirely the product of volunteers with a goal of generating lively and informed dialogue about the challenges that are confronting the people of Hawaii. We believe such public conversations are absolutely essential if we as a community hope to meet our challenges. This morning we're talking about why people hate government. It's a topic that I think is very important and interesting. And we have three very interesting people in the studio to talk about it.
[00:00:44] Randall Roth: Kim Lowry is at the University of Hawaii. He's a professor in the Department of Urban and Regional Planning, and is very involved in mediation and conflict resolution. Norma Wong recently was in government and has held many positions, including Director of the Hawaii Office of State Planning. Alex Santiago is a social worker who has been a member of the state legislature for five years. Well, if you've seen this morning's newspaper, the Honolulu Advertiser, on page B3, in the focus section, there's an article by one of our guests, Kim, Kim Lowry. And in that he says, among other things, many see government as large, intrusive, expensive, and incompetent. Pretty strong language, Kim. And obviously you believe it or you wouldn't write it. Let me ask you, is it getting better, or is it getting worse?
[00:01:36] Speaker 6: Randy, let me cite two quick indicators. One is that voter participation in presidential elections is down 25 to 30% since 1960. Second indicator, the Roper Organization has been tracking voter responses to government for about 40 years. They say the distrust is up from about 30% in 1966 to 75% in 1993. So I think that's a fairly substantial increase.
[00:02:07] Randall Roth: Okay. Norma, you've been in state government for many years. Do you agree with Kim's assessment of the way people are looking at government?
[00:02:17] Norma Wong: I think I would agree that that's the way people are looking at government right now. And, uh, despite that, I think that you could also look at indicators that show that people have some expectations of government that, uh, are, you know, are sometimes fulfilled and sometimes not. So you say, you know, Kim mentioned certain statistics. Well, there's another statistic, and if you look at what people thought about government right after the Oklahoma bombing, people rallied to government and they thought that government did the right thing, and that they expected government to solve that crisis and, and, uh, and, and help people and government did. So you know, you see sort of these juxtapositions of where people are about government.
[00:03:04] Norma Wong: You know, I am a little concerned though that if we continue our conversation this morning, we talk about people hating government. I think that you know helps to spur the notion that somehow that there's, uh, something about, uh, government that we want to come up against, uh, in a way that is you know, may not be productive.
[00:03:25] Randall Roth: What what's the word, Kim? I know I used the word skeptical and that we, um, well, we're anxious. What's the right word? How do we feel? What's the national mood toward government?
[00:03:37] Speaker 6: Well, I think there's anger, but I'm not sure whether there's hate.
[00:03:40] Randall Roth: Okay. What do you think, Kim?
[00:03:42] Speaker 6: I think Norma's making a useful distinction, and without getting overly academic about this, I think there are people who hate government. And those are frequently people who think the Rothschilds, or the CIA, or the Trilateral Commission is trying to take over the US, and that computer chips are being implanted in people. So there is a fringe group of people who genuinely hate government. I think the group that we are most interested in, the group that we are talking about today, is that group which distrusts government. And that, to some extent, that distrust is growing, I think.
[00:04:15] Randall Roth: Okay. I'm sorry, Alex, you've been in the legislature for the last five years. You're still there, in the front lines, if you will, of government. How do you feel about all this?
[00:04:25] Alex Santiago: I think that, perhaps as a social worker, let me also mention that there's a lot of fear and frustration right now. Uh, as communities go through changes, and I guess, I'd like to speak a lot from the local perspective. Um, as people go through changes, as in my community, where massive crises are occurring in terms of employment. The future is unpredictable. The fear and frustration oftentimes is translated into distrust and then anger, and then there's a reaction. And those of us in public office, we're the front line guys, we're in the trenches, and we're the ones who will automatically be the first ones that people will point to and say, that's the reason why. And [unintelligible — audio glitch] reminded of a line that I heard Senator Inouye say in one of his speeches here during the election he was in.
[00:05:14] Alex Santiago: He said, we are no longer, and I'm speaking from the elected officials' perspective, we are no longer seen as the means to resolve problems. We are seen as the problem. And somehow, I think these types of shows, we need to start talking about what is it really that's going on in terms of the people's perception of those of us in public office and why we're there. Is it an accurate view that they have of us that's being portrayed in the media? And I can cite many, many examples of how I felt the media has been, perhaps not totally fair with some of our Well, let me let me come back to to the topic of the media in just a moment, but I'm I'm curious, Norma, what do you think about the why question? You know, why why is all this going on right now? Why are people increasingly distrustful, frustrated, um, why all the negativism?
[00:06:04] Norma Wong: Well, I think some of it has to do with the general environment we're in. Uh, you know it has to do with the economy, both locally and nationally. And, you know, when when things are are not going well, we tend to not look at ourselves, but to look at something else, and the biggest institution around is the government. And since, you know, government, uh, you know, and and having been in various parts of government before, including elected office, I know that, uh, part of your job when you're in government is to say that you can actually solve something. And if you can't solve everything, uh, then, you know, you become a, a very, uh, easy institution, uh, to, uh, to bash down. So I think part of it is the economy. But that isn't all of it. You know, we're we're, uh, government, like everything else, is realigning and hasn't found itself, and, uh, it's, it's very difficult to realign something as large as government.
[00:07:01] Randall Roth: Is realigning and downsizing, are those words related?
[00:07:05] Norma Wong: Well, I some of it is, uh, some of it isn't. Which is to say that there are there are very few people who would say, we actually need fewer teachers. Mhm. Okay. But we need less government. But we need less government. Uh, or say we need less public health nurses or need less, [unintelligible — audio glitch] people who will protect our children or less police officers, et cetera, et cetera. But we certainly need less government.
[00:07:29] Randall Roth: Well, I'm curious, Kim, you made the comment about how people increasingly think that we have too much government. And I know right above your piece in the paper this morning, there were two pieces, one by Sagee Inaya, uh, the Director of DBED, and, uh, the other by Senator Michael Liu. Uh, the piece by Sagee, I thought was, was especially well written. And one of the things he says is that we need to rethink our philosophy of what government can and cannot do. And he comments that government in Hawaii has grown dramatically, uh, over the last eight years or so.
[00:08:00] Randall Roth: Um, I think the implication is and in fact I think he he suggests that government does have to do a downsizing of sorts. Um, what's your reaction to all that?
[00:08:08] Speaker 6: Well, I think that, um, that's what's going on nationally as well as locally, but I don't think we have any clear consensus about what kind of downsizing ought to occur. And so, I think the question about what the philosophy ought to be is an appropriate one. But anytime there's downsizing, that encourages people to compare the priorities that are being set, to argue about those priorities, to suggest that other priorities ought to, to dominate. So that's partly, uh, where the, uh, distrust come from. And and unless we have a set of principles that everybody agrees on that ought to to guide the downsizing, there's going to be a fair amount of distrust, a fair amount of anger.
[00:08:44] Randall Roth: And I guess that makes me think of that word that I hear so often on this radio show, fragmentation. So oftentimes regardless of our subject, people comment that anymore, we have more and more special interest groups that are just focused like a laser on whatever it is that they're after. Alex, is that your perception from the legislature?
[00:09:03] Alex Santiago: Definitely. You know, you have these uh special interest groups that just come in and, and To heck with everything else, you know, absolutely. Because they believe that what they're fighting for is the one and only thing that matters, and everyone else will take care of their own. Mhm. And it's my job just to make sure that I take care of this one aspect.
[00:09:20] Randall Roth: Mhm. Mhm. Well, you mentioned the media earlier. To what extent is is the media involved in this equation where where people increasingly distrust government, uh, increasingly are are frustrated, or what have you?
[00:09:32] Alex Santiago: I think, you know, I'm I don't consider myself an enemy of the media or in any way shape or form, but I have on many occasions called them on the carpet about being responsible and what they report, and I can, I just go back on a number of things that have come out in the paper recently about the, uh, NCSL trip that we're leaving on that I'm leaving on this afternoon for.
[00:09:51] Randall Roth: That's the trip to That's the one to Milwaukee. Milwaukee, exactly. And it was printed up in the paper like we were off to some big party up on the mainland. Going to cost $60,000.
[00:09:58] Alex Santiago: $60,000, exactly. Now, why do you think that wasn't covered right? Well, I I don't think that it shows why we go and what we do when we get there. Um, I I remember the first year I got in office and I was encouraged to attend the NCSL that was held in Orlando, Florida. Obviously, there's Disney World and it was going to not play well in the in the media. And I I remember some of my colleagues say, I'm not going. I'm I'm not going to risk having my community think that I'm going off on a trip. And I said, you know, if we in office continue to just do what's politically correct, we and and everyone knows doing what's politically correct is easy. I went to that NCSL because I was encouraged to go there and find out what it is that we do when we get there. I worked harder during that one week and came back with ideas that resulted in legislation on my first bill that I pass, I'm very proud of. Non-point source pollution, which is a major problem in Hawaii. They didn't give much press because it's not a not one of those things that people understand easily. But I went there, I got some terrific information, came back and over the last two years, I've organized a national caucus of legislators who are social workers who are going to impact upon what's going on in Congress. I'm going up along with a Texas legislator, uh, Elliot Natish and we've been working for two years to get the 60 legislators nationwide who are MSW social workers in the legislators to organize. I'm going to be leading that. I think it's important that Hawaii not back off, but be a part of what's going on at the national level.
[00:11:18] Randall Roth: Okay. Norma, I'm curious. You've been in state government a long time, not right now, but uh, not long ago. Uh, what do you think about the media? Do you agree with Alex that um, that they haven't done a, I guess this is a fair description of what Alex said. They haven't done a particularly good job of covering uh, what government is doing and why it's doing it?
[00:11:37] Norma Wong: There there's a lot about government that is uh that can be seen as as necessary but boring. And so conflict is out is much easier to cover. It sells more papers, it you know, sells more advertising time and things of that sort. And, you know, and then there is also [unintelligible — audio glitch] uh if the more difficult My experience has been that the more difficult the issue is, the more difficult it is to cover. You know, when I was in government, I used to do a lot of Native Hawaiian issues, and I would come over and over again to situations where a reporter would essentially uh just you know, not spend the time to uh to look at the issue or what not. And they would go after the sensational headline. Mhm. Now, it to say that right now, you know, I have a point of view that we're in a general state of grumpiness. Grumpiness? Grumpiness, yes.
[00:12:32] Norma Wong: The electorate is grumpy. I mean, I'm talking about the people who actually uh decide that it's necessary to participate, you know, not even the people who don't participate, but those of us who are participating, we're not particularly happy with the state of things. We're grumpy and, uh, one of the results is we tend to elect grumpy people. And then the newspapers uh uh write grumpy headlines about about all of this. And then we begin to think that, uh, that, uh, and I'm talking about in, you know, as far as the political leaders, I think political leaders tend to think that, well, let's see, if I say something grumpy, I'll get a headline number one. Mmhmm. Strike a nerve. I'll strike a nerve, and that that is a nerve and I am therefore doing what is appropriate for what people think I ought to do. Now that is a really perverse way of satisfying your constituency. But you I could see that happening, you know, not only in Hawaii but all across the nation.
[00:13:16] Randall Roth: Let's see what Kim Lowry has to say about this before we leave the subject of the media.
[00:13:20] Speaker 6: I agree. I think that that the issue of conflict driving stories is a major problem. Um, it's not a problem that we understand that it's a way of getting attention and that the the news hole, the amount of time that can and the amount of space it can be spent on stories is limited. Uh there was a report done by the Catering Foundation a number of years ago that found that distrust of government was related in large part to the media, that citizens identified the media as one of the major causes.
[00:14:01] Speaker 6: Let me cite one local example that I think uh underlies the point that Norma was making about, uh, conflict and conflict driving stories. Last year, I think it was, there was a story, uh, about an environmental group in Kailua that talked about, uh, non-point source pollution, to follow up on Alex's point, talked about having found a pair of diapers on the beach and blaming the city for not doing an an adequate job of sewage disposal. And then the newspapers and the TV went to city officials who said, that can't be from the sewage treatment plant because has a fine mesh screen at the end of the pipe. Both newspapers and the TV story uh TV stations left it at that. It was a he-said, she-said kind of story, and there were plenty of experts around with whom anybody could have followed up, and in fact one of the local experts at the university did write a long letter to the uh to one of the papers describing uh the the engineering of sewage treatment and describing how that could have occurred, and the letter was printed on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve way back on the sports page. And and I I just think it's too bad that we can't provide more context for some of these conflicts and provide alternative perspectives.
[00:15:18] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, you're You're go ahead, Alex.
[00:15:19] Alex Santiago: I just wanted to I hope we're not going to completely leave the media because I think it's a major player. We haven't bashed them quite enough. No, no, no, no. I don't mean to bash them, but what I do want to say is that when those in leadership, who we I'm not a member of the, you know, leadership in in our house, we look to them to give the alternative perspective, right? And when they attempt to do that, it ends up as a 10 second blip on the television screen or a half a paragraph or played up on the morning radio shows or the Berian price or Michael Hughes saying I remember Ross Baker tried to defend what we're going to do up in the NCSL and came across sounding like, oh we have to go up there to to hear what they're doing on the mainland. There is so much that's done there but it never gets played up. I mean never gets really um fully discussed because, and that's where the fear now comes in and the politicians, those in leadership and many others, they begin to hunker down and they they begin to say, better I don't say anything, for for fear of being misled, or they do what Norma mentioned, which is really, which turns my gut when I hear politicians who who go out and regurgitate what they know people want to hear just so that they get the headlines and they play the play the press, and the press loves that. I don't.
[00:16:26] Randall Roth: Okay. In case you joined us late, this is Pop Radio. Our topic is why do people distrust government. With me in the studio, I have Kim Lowry, he's a UH professor in the Department of Urban and Regional Planning, Norma Wong, she's a former director of the Hawaii Office of State Planning, and Alex Santiago, a social worker who is also a member of the state legislature. If you'd like to ask them a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are always invited to call collect, the number again is 955-8821. We have a caller from the Big Island, David. Good morning, David.
[00:17:05] Speaker 1: Good morning Randy. Um the big reason why I distrust government is because they no longer represent us, they represent the special interest and you know we've lost our democracy almost, uh, just locally here on the Big Island on a lot of the people who live here do so because we like the rural lifestyle and the open spaces, but the mayor and the uh councilmen are you know, busy courting all the developers trying to get all the development in they can. This isn't what the people want, but this is where the money comes from for their campaign funds at the national level same thing.
[00:18:13] Randall Roth: David, let me Let me get a reaction to that. Uh, Norma, any thoughts on on whether politicians are are reporting us and by us, I guess focusing on on the community concerns, as opposed to just those folks who are there across the desk who may be made big political contributions, who are asking for something real specific?
[00:18:36] Norma Wong: You know, as much as we talk about the power of the special interests and there's no doubt that special interests do contribute money, uh considerable money to people's campaigns. Special interests don't have any more votes when it comes to an actual election than anybody else. And in fact, they have even less votes. But as Kim pointed out earlier, uh everybody else has fewer and fewer votes because they're not showing up. They're not exercising that uh privilege. I think you'll see that in many races, but if you look at uh Alex Santiago's race, most local races, you'll see that [unintelligible — audio glitch] uh they are turning they're turning now, they have competition uh that um uh people go into the voting booth and they actually vote. So I just say, you know, you have this juxtaposition which is to say that people elect people to office and then they forget about them for about four years or for two years.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: So we need to speak up more as citizens as opposed to special interests representatives.
[00:19:05] Speaker 7: I I'm sure Alex could tell you the many times when you have an issue that you consider to be of great importance to the people of Hawaii. We have a lot of headlines, etc, etc. And you don't get a single call, a single letter from someone who you might think they're being as as an actual constituent.
[00:19:24] Randall Roth: Uh huh, somebody who's relatively objective on that issue as opposed to having a a direct special interest linked to it.
[00:19:30] Speaker 7: essentially being a regular person.
[00:19:32] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh, Kim, I know your piece in the paper this morning toward the end, you talk about civic disengagement and that sort of thing. I think it's related to what David's saying.
[00:19:41] Speaker 6: Well, I I want to go back to his original point because I think it's an important one. I think organized money is a very important factor in the contemporary politics, nationally and locally. And the organized money makes it possible to finance media campaigns that are less important in a race like Representative Santiago's, but very important in an island-wide and a state-wide race, because that kind of money makes it possible to target ads, uh, to do the kind of uh, high-tech media campaign that is uh increasingly important if you want to get elected in a state-wide race.
[00:20:12] Randall Roth: Okay. David, I appreciate your call. We've got a bunch of people stacked up. I'd I'd have you talk a little bit more about this. You've raised a very interesting subject, but we do have to move on.
[00:20:21] Speaker 6: Thank you, Randy.
[00:20:21] Randall Roth: Thank you, David. Next on the line, Lila from Iaia. Good morning, Lila.
[00:20:25] Speaker 7: Good morning. One topic you haven't touched on regarding government is corruption. And you know, we can just just sit here and spend the rest of the morning, um, listing all the uh, illegalities that have occurred in government. Sweetheart, leases, you know, Sand Island, uh, the sewage and this is on all levels of government.
[00:20:49] Randall Roth: Lila, we've got one person in the studio who currently is a part of government. Uh, let's hear what Alex Santiego Santiago has to say about that.
[00:20:58] Alex Santiago: I think that the media plays a major role in being the watchdog. And I see we have a caller on there who's going to also mention as a watchdog that there's these things going on that we should clean up. And I am not going to apologize for anything that anyone in government has done has that has misused his power. Because we do have power. I like to think of it as responsibility. I also have to say, though, that the majority, the great majority of people that I work with really come there with the best of intentions. We give up so much and we sacrifice and we work hard. And it's very difficult for us to have to sit back and be painted with a broad stroke brush with those who have, in fact, done done things that we find just as objectionable as the people out there in the community. But we never, you know.
[00:21:40] Randall Roth: Let me ask Lila, don't you think it's a small percentage of the politicians who are who are acting improperly, Lila? Or or do you think it's a high percentage?
[00:21:47] Speaker 7: I'm not I'm not targeting politicians necessarily, but because let's face it, the Democrats have been been in power for a number of years, and they have been entrenched, um, you know, really illegal things have happened. Okay, what about the misappropriation of the airport money, what about contract.
[00:22:08] Randall Roth: Lila, are you suggesting that power corrupts, and we've had a one party system for a long time? Kim Lowry this morning in his paper in his article on the paper said, powerlessness corrupts, too, and uh, I I guess that's just another way of looking at this issue today. Lila, I appreciate your call. We've got a number of people on the line and so I'm going to have to move on, but thank you very much. Um, since Alex made a comment, we we so you folks know what's going on, when somebody calls in, our assistant producer uh writes a little note and tapes it in a window so we can see who's on the line. And one of the people waiting is is Desmond Burn and as Alex knows, he's the the head of Common Cause here in Hawaii, which is a a government watchdog. So since Alex has mentioned that he's one of the folks waiting, we'll go straight to Desmond online, too. Good morning, Desmond.
[00:22:55] Speaker 2: Good morning, Randy.
[00:22:56] Randall Roth: What do you have for us this morning?
[00:22:57] Speaker 2: I don't know, there are so many things, I'll just choose one. So many things.
[00:23:03] Randall Roth: Give us one.
[00:23:03] Speaker 2: Right. Just take the legislature. I disagree with Alex. We common calls get blamed with the media for sometimes the poor sort of press of the legislature and we can only get around to one tenth of the things that really need addressing there. Give you an example, uh, the their own budget process, uh they they don't have the amounts. Getting information out of the leadership is like getting uh, blood out of a stone. You have to push and push. I mean, it's not, and you take the uh, Jimeno thing, the gift thing, on and on the first class travel, they had to be hit over the head nearly by a two by four to change.
[00:23:40] Randall Roth: Desmond, let me get Norma Wong's reaction to what you've said and then then I want to get Alex's reaction as well and in fact it's it's such a a provocative statement. We'll we'll get all three guests reaction to it, but Norma Wong first.
[00:24:01] Norma Wong: Yeah. Um, fish bowl uh when you're in politics, you have to get used to uh to living in a fish bowl. And what that means is that, you know, even though people are going to watch you, uh even when you're not very elegantly uh swimming around or doing things that are not mentionable in morning radio, that it's going to be it's going to be visible. Um, and which is to say that um uh, the well let let me let me back up a little bit and give give an example. Um, it's no secret that I worked during the Yhi administration and that, which is now being used as a as a sort of an acronym for everything that uh uh people currently don't like about government.
[00:24:46] Norma Wong: And um I remember the in the first uh, uh first term of the administration, uh, the governor and and the administration, the legislature, were successful in passing a a bill that opened up government to a very large degree, uh, where the they have the most liberal public information law um, in the nation among all states and our information laws is even more transparent than the one that governs the federal government. You don't have to write a sheet of papers in order to uh, command a government agency to release information. I mean, it's very, very a liberal law. Not as liberal as some people would like, but it is quite liberal.
[00:25:30] Randall Roth: Relatively speaking, we're out there on the edge, right?
[00:25:32] Norma Wong: Right, relatively speaking, we're out there on the edge. And and uh, uh, and then and in the second term that there were uh a number of times when the governor would say to me, rather ruthfully, Well, we let the elephants in, uh but we forgot to tie down the furniture.
[00:25:52] Randall Roth: Did he really say that?
[00:25:54] Norma Wong: It is really.
[00:25:56] Randall Roth: Okay.
[00:25:57] Norma Wong: Hey, and and uh, and he wasn't referring like [unintelligible — audio glitch] like the Republicans, you know, there there's no in in terms of elephants. Saying that, you know, we intentionally said, this we wanted a more open government. And we have to live with the consequences of that, which is to say, everything guys, I mean, no clothes on. When the emperor has no clothes on, you have no clothes on. And you have to live with that. And uh, and it's it's especially difficult thing to do and uh, and you have to be careful about it when you're a politician and when you're in office, so that you uh so that you are on one hand understand that that's those are the rules of the game today. And on the other hand that you still you can still conduct the business of government.
[00:26:49] Randall Roth: Let's see what uh Alex First of all, I I agree with Desmond to to a large degree that it's very difficult to get quick answers to to some very complex issues. Uh, the budget is a great example. I served for two years on the finance committee, and I had a hard time understanding what was going on, and I'm still having a difficult time, and we are trying to reform that. But in terms of the other two things he mentioned, the first-class travel, I just want to remind everybody that when that hit [unintelligible — audio glitch] news wings, and they focused in on the very the I think they were only about two or three legislators who flew on that convention first class, and I was singled out as the one who flew for the cheapest fare, and [unintelligible — audio glitch] got my things coach went early and all that. Almost 80 90% of us who went up there flew coach. We got it the cheapest route we could possibly get, and we're very conscientious about what we were doing, but that never really that headline. No, the headline was those those two, and the one individual who they focused in on who had to fly first class because he wasn't going to go. He was asked to go by the speaker of the house to represent us and had to at the last minute go up and do this and I felt very bad for Representative Aupol, who tried to defend himself later on by saying, there were no other seats available. I had to take this last seat. But anyway, the the thing about the gifts, many of us refused the gifts that were given. All of these corporate memberships, most of us will not go. I don't golf. I don't take them. They're offered to us. We just don't take them. That doesn't make the airways. When the UH tickets were given to us, I paid for mine the first year. So not just I, there was a number of us who paid for it. But that didn't hit the airways or or get the news coverage that the others did. And it was and and I'm not saying that it's wrong for them to focus in on, but I say say the whole picture because there is an awful lot of reform going on, especially in the house, because of the the new members that came in said, we want quorums, and we want this, we want that, and the reforms occurring in the house, albeit as slow as they may be, I think are really making a difference.
[00:28:37] Randall Roth: Okay. Well our our one guest in the studio who is is not and I guess never has been a part of uh of government, not an elected official or a government official, Kim Lowry, University of Hawaii professor, what do you think of this? rather ruthfully.
[00:34:15] Speaker 6: I common cause, but uh, I do have in in my history a uh a brief tour as an appointed official. I was on the uh Charter Commission about 15 years ago and that experience gave me some sympathy with legislators, um, we were trying to make a lot of changes and hold public hearings and uh, manage a lot of information and keeping up with the reporting requirements and keeping on top of the information that people wanted on a timely basis and trying to keep track of which was the latest draft. I found it really very difficult uh process. So I always uh, I have a certain amount of sympathy with the legislators in particular who are trying to manage all this information to respect the meeting uh time requirements and all that sort of thing. Like to see reform like everybody else. Like to see greater access, but recognize that it's sometimes difficult to manage.
[00:34:55] Randall Roth: Desmond, one thing, I was referring to the budget of the legislature itself. Okay. How much they spend on themselves?
[00:35:02] Speaker 2: Right, and that doesn't go through a proper process like the rest of government and and Alex uh should know that.
[00:35:09] Randall Roth: Well, okay, thank you, Desmond. Uh, next on the line, Ray from Kailua. Good morning, Ray.
[00:35:15] Speaker 9: Good morning. I uh I'd like to get back to what you kind of opened your show with, and that is the the feeling that the the frustration and anger towards the government and I would I would say that it uh if we continue on this route, it's only going to get worse and I and I would apply this analysis, that right now we've got basically two groups um in Hawaii and and in the nation uh, who look at government entirely different. We've got a group of people who see government as the agency that's supposed to take care of them, much as their parents took care of them when they were children. Uh, you know, the government is supposed to provide free health care and the government's supposed to assume liability when they wreck their car, and the government is supposed to provide near free childcare uh in the schools, after school. And then you've got another group of people who feel government should be doing things that uh the very limited amount of things that they they absolutely have to do, you know, providing common defense, both external and internal. Um, maintaining the infrastructure and stuff like that. And in a real sense, it's a zero sum game between those two groups. You have to take from the second group in order to provide what the first group is looking for.
[00:36:31] Speaker 9: 20 years ago we didn't have anywhere near the frustration with government. Frustration with government was when a pothole didn't get filled on the street quick enough for to uh to satisfy you. But now, the frustration is is that the government is in the middle between those two groups. Every time they move over to to the people who want government as parents, they end up limiting the freedoms and increasing the taxes, taxes and doing all the things that irritate the second group and every time they try to move back to the other direction, we get the media throwing up signs that the the government is allowing people to go sick and the government is allowing people to go hungry and etcetera, etcetera.
[00:37:09] Randall Roth: Well Ray, you're making a a great point. I'm curious what our our professor has to say about that. It what what's describing rings true with me, Kim.
[00:37:16] Speaker 6: I I think it's true, and I think that's part of what what the current battle is about. Um, uh, you know, in this discussion we have sort of forgotten or de-emphasized the things that we all acknowledge that government does reasonably well. Our garbage gets picked up regularly. We have reasonably good security. Uh, the fire trucks come, the buses run on time. Uh, the kinds of of basic kinds of services get delivered and uh I mean we're all grateful, for example, that when we get on an airplane, that the that there are air traffic controllers to to guide us to where we're going to go. The battle, the current battle is about um what problems ought to be addressed and and how benefits uh ought to be distributed or how uh
[00:38:00] Speaker 10: How burdens are to be distributed. If if there are to be cutbacks, how those burdens are going to be distributed. Now, a good example of the point that Ray is making is the in the aftermath of the hurricane, a few years ago, Hurricane Eva, people called in the governor's office and wanted to know who was going to compensate them for the groceries they lost during the time that the electricity was off. And and that is a sense, that gives us, I think some indication of the ambivalence that people have about government.
[00:38:32] Speaker 9: And and and so using that example as a government official, you now have a choice. You can either tell that guy, you must be out of your mind to think that I'm going to replace your milk in there. That's not my job. At that case, now you have a frustrated person at government. Or you can come to me and say, Ray, cough up a buck and a half so I can replace this guy's milk in the refrigerator. And then you've got me mad as hell at you. So, and that you know and that is your dilemma, right there.
[00:38:56] Speaker 10: You I think you're I think you're right. Let me ask Norma, it it sounds to me like Ray is saying among other things that that we as a people have kind of on a philosophical level become a bit polarized and politics is the art of of compromise and so if something in the middle is done, everyone is frustrated.
[00:39:13] Norma Wong: Sure. And you know if you look at and and it's actually a little easier to look at at the national level than it is at at the local level which is to say that you know, people look at the big swing that happened between you know, President Clinton getting elected and then just two years thereafter the Congress swings to the Republican side and it's you know, [unintelligible — audio glitch] they look at that and I I've seen some people look at that and say, I think accurately, when President Clinton got elected, people thought people uh some people in Congress mistook that as actually being an ideological swing. And so they acted in that way. Okay, and that and and the electorate said, [unintelligible — audio glitch] that's not what it is. And so then Republicans got elected and then just a a few months after the election, you'll see that people like Newt Gingrich, etc. are not as popular as when they got uh as when as as during the electoral period. And so which you say the Republicans are got elected, mistook it and said it's an ideological swing to the right. And everybody said, [unintelligible — audio glitch] that's not what it is. You know, we're we're sort of uh we're in this we're in this state uh both nationally and locally where we're we've lost the vision of what we would like our place to be and you know, and we think that somehow our leaders are prophets and that they would be able to see this better than we will. Well, that's what we that's why we elect people to lead us. But uh uh we're in a state now where this uh lack of of place, a lack of vision uh is being reflected um in our in our leadership uh uh to some extent, I think uh fed by the media. I'm not as cynical about the media as maybe Alex.
[00:41:01] Alex Santiago: Well, ma'am, I'd like to make one last point then I'll get off the air here. Okay, and that is on the media. Uh there's no bigger critic of state government on this island probably than I am. But I got to tell you, I have absolutely no tolerance for laziness, and that's what we're seeing in the media. That supposedly enormous front page story about the state doesn't know how many employees they have. My god, I mean if you call me and ask me how many employees I have, and you don't tell me whether you want part timers or not or contractors or not, I mean, what stupidity? And then this the the letter this morning on the front page from a union boss. I mean, that is all that is is reporters and editors who aren't willing to take the time to find the real stories out there, so they find something that's easy.
[00:41:46] Speaker 10: Ray, I I've got to move on but I I will share with you our three guests in the studio are nodding uh that they tend to agree with what you've just said. Thank you very much, we appreciate that. In case you joined us late, my name is Randy Roth. This is Pop Radio. We're talking about why is it that people tend to distrust government? With me in the studio are Kim Lowry, a professor from the University of Hawaii, Norma Wong, a person who's been director of the State Office of uh Planning, and Alex Santiago, a member of the State Legislature. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, you can call us at 955-8821. And if you joined us late, you can catch the entire show this evening from 8:00 to 9:00 on KIFO, that's 1380 AM. The entire show will be rebroadcast beginning at 8:00 on 1380 AM. Our next caller who's been waiting very patiently, Malcolm from Manoa, good morning, Malcolm.
[00:42:37] Speaker 8: Oh, good morning. I have uh one brief observation and then a quick question as well. Uh when Lou Cannon of the Washington Post was here at a forum on government and the media, he said that uh among national journalists, Hawaii's press is has a reputation of being very friendly, very cozy with government.
[00:42:59] Speaker 10: Two friendly is what you're suggesting?
[00:43:01] Speaker 8: Uh yes. And uh my question here, in that article above Kim Lowry's uh Sagee article, this relates to the earlier caller's question about government taking from that that politics being a zero-sum game, they have to take from one person and give to another. Mr. Naya says that um cutting back well, stimulating the economy uh will they they win-win situation, right?
[00:43:28] Speaker 10: So a win-win situation, right?
[00:43:30] Speaker 8: Yeah, well, it should be a win-win situation, but he says um there stimulus plan involves accelerating government construction spending. And I'd like to ask uh Kim Lowry, I guess mostly, but any other panelists there, why a purchase of concrete is more stimulating than a purchase of bureaucratic fat? Why taking money from the private sector of the economy and spending it on concrete is going to stimulate anymore than leaving it in letting letting the private uh the taxpayers from whom it's being taken spend it or giving it to uh another layer of bureaucracy in the DOE, for example.
[00:44:12] Alex Santiago: Malcolm, I'm I'm going to direct your question to uh our former director of the Office of State Planning because I I think perhaps her experience is a little bit more directly related to [unintelligible — audio glitch] good question. Norma?
[00:44:23] Norma Wong: One of the key indicators of economic health is the state of construction. Which is, and and at the moment, uh government happens to be one of the few economic entities that has uh money to spend in construction. Now we have to make a [unintelligible — audio glitch] assumption before that, which is to say that we have made good choices with respect to what it is we want to have constructed. That the road that reconstruction is actually a road we need. The school is what we need. The sewage treatment plant is what we need and we make those assumptions. Then if you look at um a dollar that goes into construction actually produces more jobs than a dollar that goes to um uh Joe Blow who works as an accountant uh in in the office of State Planning, for example, um because all of that is it's not it's not actually built by government. Every public construction job is actually built by the private sector. Uh they hire real people. Well, you know, who who then uh uh use that money and they spend it on uh shopping, etc. It it act there actually um you get more for bang for your buck. It's actually one of the very few economic stimulus tools that government has. Mhm. You know as much as any government would like to say that you know they're going to do something about the economy, uh there's very little that government can do except stand out of the way. Right. Oh, and conduct public construction.
[00:45:50] Alex Santiago: One of the things in uh Sagee Naya's article is that he points out as a a percentage of of the state, um [unintelligible — audio glitch] state product each year, government expenditures has been going up fairly uh rapidly, and the suggestion is that as we're spending more and more and more on government itself, uh our ability to uh to support a high standard of living is is eroded each year. And um, I don't know. I I should uh since Kim was giving uh his disclaimer earlier, I should say that I'm I'm kind of a fan of Sagee Naya's, but I think in addition to Kim's excellent article in this morning's paper, the article by uh Sagee Naya very much is uh is worth reading. Um, let's see. Kim, anything Okay. Malcolm, we need to move on. Thank you very much for your call.
[00:46:35] Speaker 8: Okay, but I still like to hear uh someone else address that issue because I don't understand why um any less economic activity would take place if that money, that construction money was simply left in the taxpayer's hands.
[00:46:48] Alex Santiago: I'll tell you what. A long time ago, I majored in economics in college and uh I can tell you your your question is a very good one, but uh Norma's answer is is accurate. And other than uh trying to describe it in another way, I I don't think we can answer that any better. Um we've got a call from Maui, George. Good morning.
[00:47:05] Speaker 4: Good morning to you. I'd like to share with you one remedy for two good causes of our problem. The first cause is when a university or a business seeks to hire the best person to satisfy their problems, they work on qualification. But when people are brought into government or elected, they're elected for their ability to shake hands and to make promises that they may or may not have any intention of filling. It's telling them anything but just get elected. And the remedy for those problems or or the causation is if we could create a kind of impeachment process that impeaches people who do not address themselves to the things they say they will do in their initial platform uh during the election process.
[00:48:01] Alex Santiago: George, let me ask Alex Santiago, do you feel that that you're subject to an impeachment process uh every couple years or so? Every two years, and I'm definitely held to it. I think it's a crime to make the population wait two years when someone is hired for their own to serve their own purposes rather than to serve the purposes of the constituency to which they profess loyalty but have none.
[00:48:25] Kem Lowry: I have a slightly different take on uh George's comment and that that I think uh speaks to the issue of distrust that we've been talking about. Uh and it's less a problem I think uh at the local level than it is at the national level and that is that we're we seem to be increasingly in a permanent campaign mode uh in our politics and what that one of the consequences of that is that we uh are confronted constantly with attack politics. Everything, every initiative that anybody takes is described in terms of its impact on presidential politics or congressional politics. And uh we have four or five prominent examples of the past two weeks. Um President Clinton um uh recognizes Vietnam and says we're going to send a mission to Vietnam, a diplomatic mission to Vietnam. Right away, that's discussed in terms of uh its impact on his presidential aspirations. Uh Bob Dole talks about uh violence in the movies and there's no discussion of the content of that uh criticism, only what its implications are for campaigning. And we So so more and more everything is driven by or seem the discussion, the public discussion uh of issues is driven by its impact on somebody or another's uh uh presidential or or other electoral aspirations and I think that that constant attack politics is part of what feeds the distrust that we see.
[00:49:51] Alex Santiago: Okay. George, thank you for your call.
[00:49:52] Speaker 4: Thank you. And on that last issue, the reason is the fire that is fanned in terms of public policy is done by the press and we don't get double representation, we have one point of view.
[00:50:04] Alex Santiago: Okay. Thank you very much.
[00:50:06] Speaker 10: We have in uh Moiliili, Eva. Good morning, Eva.
[00:50:09] Speaker 3: Yes, good morning. Um, my plant is that uh we must not forget that the elected officials are supposed to be our servants. Is that not correct?
[00:50:20] Alex Santiago: Well, I guess that was called into question on uh the front page of this morning's newspaper. Is that what you're headed toward?
[00:50:26] Speaker 3: No, I well it goes further than that. I'm talking about our uh officials in uh elected officials in Washington DC, that's say our two senators and our Congress people. Mhm. They are when they ran for for reelection, they always promise to be our servants to serve the people to serve our needs and then it turns out when they get into this uh office, then all of a sudden they become our masters. And I think that's what the what the American people are mad about. It's as if you hired a domestic, maybe a butler or a maid and you have certain conditions, you say offer you that much pay and you have certain obligations and certain jobs, and then they agree to it and and then you let them into your house and before you know it, they run your house.
[00:51:04] Alex Santiago: Eva, you know, two things. I I'm hearing the specific words that you're saying and I think they're very important and I I want our guests to have an opportunity to respond to them. But also from you and I think from our last caller, there is this um this frustration. There is this uh cynicism etc that that is the topic of the day. And and that's coming through. Uh Alex, I'm sure you're hearing that from a lot of constituents. Yeah, and I you know, to be really honest with you, I'm not sure how you address that because when you take a perspective that I've taken since I've been in office and that is you know, I'm here for two years, I may not be back. I'm going to do what I think is in the best interests of all the people, I'm going to weigh everything out. I'm not going to be that concerned about any kind of special interest group and the impact that they're going to have on me or or how it's going to be perceived. And what often times happens is a complex issue comes before us, whether it be same sex marriage or whether it be the no fault insurance or any of the many issues and I've had my share in my community that shut down at the sugar company and Lee Hilani Development, etc. And what you try to do is you try to as best you can explain to the people why you do what you do and inevitably those who disagree with you will basically attack you and say you're not representing me.
[00:52:14] Speaker 3: Sure. Of course.
[00:52:15] Alex Santiago: You know and what happens is I have to just look at that and say, I'm sorry we disagree on this thing and you'll have your chance to pick someone else in the next two years. And I encourage everyone who's disagreed with me, put your name on the ballot and go take my place.
[00:52:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, you still have to vote your your best conscience but um isn't the ultimate guideline for our government, especially the federal government, the Constitution of the United States. Isn't that our highest law?
[00:52:37] Alex Santiago: Uh Let me ask Norma Wong. Um Eva's suggesting that that especially in in Washington DC, that the people we've elected, um they act as though we owe them something. Um They become our masters. They become our masters, as as she puts it, without talking about specific politicians. What What are you hearing, as you listen to to Eva? What What are you thinking?
[00:53:00] Norma Wong: Well, you know, I I'm thinking we have this um we have we have this these mixed expectations of the people that we elect, which is to say, we really do expect that the people we elect and the people everyone who works in government, everyone who works in government, would be public servants and I would make a distinction between servants and public servants, which is to say that you know, that um that someone who works in government must believe that they are servants to all the people, not any person individually, not any special interest individually, but to all the people. And even if that is so, even though we're public servants, that there that we also need to be leaders. Which is, you know, which is to say that we don't become the slave to whatever is happens to be the popular public opinion at the time just because it happens to be popular, but then you come into values of what is right, what is good, what you know, what are the foundations of I agree with you, but like I say, how is our highest law in this country is the Constitution of the United States. If this is what supposed to be governing everything, including the state of Hawaii, right? Yes, and and you will find that there would be people who disagree about what a particular uh preamble is in the Constitution, etc. There will be disagreement But don't they pledge allegiance to that? Yes, we do. Eva, we're we're going to have to to move on. Yeah, okay. I and I appreciate your call very much.
[00:54:26] Alex Santiago: Thanks for the opportunity. You bet. Kim, if you want to make one comment about that and then I've got a question to ask all of you.
[00:54:31] Kem Lowry: Okay. Quick, quick comment, and I think uh Norma has put her finger right on the difficulty that we have, namely that uh we have people that uh expect our elected officials to do their bidding. At the same time, we're looking for vision and leadership. Uh we're looking uh for people who will uh see over the horizon, anticipate the problems that are coming in in the global economy, be able to respond to them. And I'm not sure that we can have it both ways. We're we want something that that maybe simply uh can't be.
[00:55:01] Alex Santiago: Okay, well we have another caller uh from Honolulu, Harris. Good morning, Harris.
[00:55:06] Speaker 5: Hi. I just happened to see the paper. And um I have three comments to make.
[00:55:12] Alex Santiago: Okay, and you're referring to Kim Lowry's article in the focus section of this morning's newspaper? Yeah. Okay. And even then that article is stupid. because it doesn't give any phone numbers. You have to go look up the phone numbers. Well, no you have to listen to the radio show. You see that's the bait. We want you to listen to the show. Go ahead, Harris. Okay, anyway um elected officials are all put into office, supposedly uh through honest elections. Now, Mefassa is now alleging that uh the elections were fixed the last time. But that's uh side issue. But the people have the power to take out anybody who is uh not doing their job or who's dishonest, but they don't and that's because of two things. One, they elect people who are incompetent. And uh and that's because there are no valid um competency requirements for elective office. There are only three. One is age, depending on the office you're running for. Okay, Harris, you're going to have to you're going to have to get to your point pretty quickly, we're running out of time. Okay, the second one is you have to be a US citizen. Number three, you have to be a resident and registered voter in the district from which uh you're running and you can run for office. Any dumb head, even uh people sleep on the sidewalk at night, can run for office and can probably be elected if he's good looking and have a nice voice. Harris, is your point that we need to have higher standards uh applied to people who want to be elected officials? Yes, number one. They they should at least be qualified Okay for administrative jobs on the civil service record. Okay. And Harris, I I apologize, it's going to sound like I'm rushing you but we're running out of time, so you're going to have to make your other points very quickly. Uh the people, the voters are stupid because half of them don't even vote. There are
[00:57:00] Speaker 10: 900,000 people and eligible to vote in Hawaii, as you probably know. Okay. And half of them don't vote. And uh they don't even think why their votes don't count. And the reason the vote's count is because Okay, Harris, you're going to have to get to your third point. Uh the the third point is You're the first point was was the standards for running and the second one is we've got to vote more.
[00:57:20] Speaker 10: I mean more people are voting because the voters will not kick out the bums in the office. They become arrogant and a good example is this uh $66,000 that they plan to spend unnecessarily on uh this trip. Although the state has and they know that the voters are going to put them back in.
[00:57:40] Speaker 11: Harris, you've made you've made three you've made three um good points, a couple of which have been addressed by our our guests earlier in the program. I really appreciate your call. We're down to the last five minutes and and it's uh my custom to give the people here an opportunity to to add something to the conversation that that I haven't brought out in my questions. So Harris, I appreciate your call and your comments. But in the last few minutes, and we just have actually about three to go, uh Kim, is there anything that has to be added to the conversation?
[00:58:10] Kem Lowry: Well, I think there are lots of historical reasons why there is this distrust and and you you can choose your own events, Watergate, Iran, Contra, whatever at the national level. Uh and I also think that there is a problem that we haven't talked about and that is the disconnect between people's anxieties and what's happening in Washington and the fear, the the anxiety that their real concerns are not being addressed with uh in particularly in Congress. Um, you may we may want to talk about some remedies later on, but maybe Norma would like to say and Alex would like to say something first.
[00:58:41] Speaker 11: Okay, Norma.
[00:58:42] Norma Wong: Well, you know, uh just feeding off on what Kim said in terms of remedies, along with the articles in this morning's paper, I would bring to people's attention, article by uh Larry Johnson, which appeared to in this previous week and which Larry actually did a pretty courageous bold uh uh thing, where he said that there is much optimism um uh in in Hawaii and that there are many opportunities, not only challenges. And I think that uh and and Larry Johnson is a banker, and bankers are known to look more [unintelligible — audio glitch] the bottom line and and what their stockholders want. So it's a very courageous thing for Larry to say, which is to say that.
[00:59:21] Norma Wong: You know, we can be in a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know, we talk about uh remedies. And uh I think enough has been said about what doesn't work with government, but there is much about government that works. And we have to be very careful that uh we don't get to a point where we discourage so much the people who work in government, that the good people leave, okay, that good people don't run for office. That's a problem, okay? And that uh and that those who stay uh believe somehow that the way to stay where they are is to continue to beat up on government.
[00:59:59] Speaker 11: So as my kids would put it, we we talk stink about the politicians and then we get mad when good people don't uh become politicians.
[01:00:06] Norma Wong: Absolutely.
[01:00:07] Alex Santiago: Alex, that's the point I wanted to make before I leave. You know, I keep talking to these youth every year and every year I ask a question to these seniors leaving school, how many of you think about running for office someday, or getting involved in government? And I always used to get a few hands go up. This year, very few, almost none at some of these schools and they said, you know why, we would never subject ourselves to what you had to go through, what we saw you go through in the last election that I had in my district. And and that's my concern, then you ask the question, who will we attract? What type of individuals will come?
[01:00:34] Alex Santiago: I agree with the last caller, there is arrogance amongst those who have been in a long time, but there's also a lot of people out there who will not be running and those who are in office for the right reasons will not last, and they will leave. And that's a real big concern.
[01:00:49] Speaker 11: Okay. Well, we're just about out of time. I I want to thank our guests, Kim Lowry, who's a UH professor in the Department of Urban and Regional Planning, Norma Wong, who recently has been in government, has held many positions including director of the Hawaii Office on State Planning, and Alex Santiago, who's a social worker, who's been a member of the state legislature for five years. Uh I want to tell you about our show next week. I think it's going to be a a particularly interesting conversation. The topic is going to be the war on drugs. Uh are we winning it? Are we losing it? If we're losing it, uh what should we be doing about that?
[01:01:22] Speaker 11: We have two people who are uh equally articulate and passionate on opposite sides of the issue. We have Dan Topping from the University of Hawaii and Dan Bent, who's a former US attorney. I think you're going to enjoy that program a lot. Also, there is a debate coming up uh next weekend that isn't a part of Pop Radio, but I wanted to tell you about it at the University of Hawaii on Friday and on Saturday. They've got uh two of of the top experts on uh vouchers and privatization who are going to be talking about public education and the various things we might do to improve public education.
[01:01:57] Speaker 11: Uh again, articulate and passionate on opposite sides of the issue. It's the sort of conversation that that I personally think is very very valuable. Our director of operations is Jeff Ilarity, our producer is Susie Roth, our summer assistant producers are Cassie Roth and Aaliyah Yap. I'm being told to wrap this thing up. So if you want to catch the show in its entirety tonight on KIFO 1380 AM, please do so.
[01:02:22] Speaker 11: This is uh the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth, Aloha.
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