Political Campaigns in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-11-03
Guests: George Chaplin (retired editor, The Honolulu Advertiser); Bud Smyser (retired editor, Honolulu Star-Bulletin)
Duration: 1:03:20

[Note: Music/silence outro 2006s (confirmed no speech in final chunks; tail re-transcription attempted via chunk coverage).]

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Good morning. This is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. With me in the studio today are two longtime observers of local and national politics. They also happen to be two of my favorite people. George Chaplin is editor-at-large of the Honolulu Advertiser and Bud Smiser is contributing editor of the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. Each has been editor of his respective newspaper and has received more awards for journalism and community service than I have time to list. George and Bud have graciously agreed to share their thoughts about this year's political campaign and recent election. They also have agreed to answer your questions and respond to your comments. Anyone wanting to join in our conversation can do so by calling 955-8821. Neighbor islanders are invited to call collect. The number again, 955-8821. Well George and Bud, welcome to Pop Radio.

[00:00:56] George Chaplin: Morning. Thank you.

[00:00:58] Randall Roth: I'm mostly interested in your thoughts about our local elections. Uh but what do you say we start with that political earthquake of sorts that uh has put the Republicans in charge of of Congress. Um, Bud, what are your thoughts just real quickly on the implications, if any, to the direction that this country is going to go?

[00:01:17] Bud Smyser: Obviously, they're important. Second though, the the whole pressure of the American system is to drive people in the middle of the road. We aren't going to go totally the way Newt Gingrich wants to go, just as we didn't go totally the way Bill Clinton wants to go. I hope that um we're able to work things out and we just avoid gridlock.

[00:01:36] Randall Roth: Do you think the middle of the road is somewhere between those two people, Newt and and Bill Clinton, or do you think uh one of them is much, much closer to the middle of the road than the other?

[00:01:46] Bud Smyser: Oh, I think Bill Clinton ought to get right in the middle of the road if he can. I I I I think the very Liberal Democrats are the other side of the road and I gather the black caucus increased its numbers so that we have a very extreme left element and a very extreme right element in the Congress now who are going to be at each other's throats. And I think Bill Clinton has the chance to be a great statesman and move into the middle of the road.

[00:02:08] Randall Roth: George, do you expect that or do you expect something else?

[00:02:13] George Chaplin: Well, it's hard to do any predicting, but I think that the problem uh, essentially was that uh Clinton had higher expectations than he was able to deliver on uh, and that the people had uh higher expectations uh of him. He, both he and Jimmy Carter came to Washington, I believe feeling that the way you run a state is the way you run a a nation. And uh, they both tried too much, too soon. I think that Clinton felt that uh because he had a numerical majority, that meant that he had a philosophical uh, majority and he found that a lot of Democrats uh were really in what might be called the uh Republican camp and uh that he was disappointed. He also did a lot of vacillating.

[00:03:10] George Chaplin: He's a very bright young man. Uh, he might be able to recoup in the next two years, especially if Gingrich uh continues to play the pit bull and uh everybody's eyes on '96 and how you spoil the uh the party. But uh, I think some of it has to do with the question of what part of the spectrum uh, political spectrum, uh uh, the Democrats are in. But uh, I think it goes beyond that.

[00:03:39] Randall Roth: Well, I want to ask you a question. You use the word majority. If I recall correctly, because it was uh, a three-party race, he didn't actually get a majority of the votes.

[00:03:48] Bud Smyser: No, I meant a numerical majority in Congress.

[00:03:51] Randall Roth: Oh, I see. Yeah. If if part of this 1994 election relates to uh unrealistic expectations that this is a repudiation of sorts of uh of at least what people expected from Clinton. Is it possible some of that is related to the fact that most people didn't vote for Clinton? And of course, that gets us into what's going on here in Hawaii. Uh our new governor had roughly 65% of the folks who didn't vote for him. What does that portend uh so far as his ability to lead the state, George?

[00:04:22] George Chaplin: Well, I don't think that that's an an automatic uh uh negative for him. I think what people want in leaders locally and nationally is is hope and uh and a restoration of uh trust in government. And I think if he delivers on those two fronts, uh uh he will go down as uh as a very good governor indeed. He started off uh, his game plan for the first year, I thought, was impressive. Uh, he plans to work hard to improve the public school system, uh, which until now has not been preparing Hawaii's youth to cope with the kind of complex world they're going to be in. He pledges to revitalize and readjust state government, uh, you know, setting up a priority for programs, consolidating, trimming where indicated. He would lower the cost of workmen's comp, automobile insurance, and I think, terribly important, maybe most important is he would demand adherence to ethical performance. I think that's what is needed when people saw that you could uh get away or presumably well try to get away with uh, non-bid contracts and and that sort of thing. Uh, that undermines the the people's faith in government.

[00:05:43] Randall Roth: Well, let me ask Bud. Bud, you've been observing uh, elections here in Hawaii for almost 50 years. Um, what do you think about Cayetano's chances of uh, of giving us hope and and restoring trust in government? As you listen to George describe what uh, Governor Cayetano is saying he's he's going to be doing, are you optimistic, or are you something else?

[00:06:07] Bud Smyser: I, I see two sides to that. The first is very clearly he's the candidate of the establishment. He had the overwhelming majority of the union votes. Uh, he's, from the very beginning, he he he said he was for change, uh, but you look at it, he's the man who represents the continuation of the Democratic um, dominance of Hawaii politics. It became complete in 1962 and now it's going to go on for four more years. Uh, but he says he's for change. I kind of think he is and I think that possibly he may be more influential with the unions, working with them than Pat Psyche or Frank Fassi would have been going head-to-head against them. My own strong feeling is that it's tremendously important to get back, particularly from the education unions in the contract that expires next June 30th, some of the management rights that they have usurped. Usurped. I mean, they they got them legally.

[00:07:10] Bud Smyser: Uh, first of all, the law passed in 1970 or so gave them quite a few. The law I think made a big mistake in putting top education people in the union. They're going to resist coming out of the union. But at least they ought to give the Department of Education much more freedom to put principals where it wants them. Now principals have a seniority system. They tell the Department of Education where they want to go instead of the Department of Education putting them where it needs them. And their seniority rules all through the system. The seniority rules effectively keep out any mainland person come from coming in here to be a school principal. Now, that that's our choice. But uh, but it means there's not much competition for the principal's jobs. And Lex Brodie will tell you, having gone to school, we have some very good principals. And when you have a good principal, you tend to have a good school. And we have some principals who are kind of asleep on the switch. Mhm. And we we should try to put in every principal's post, that's 242 post, the most effective people we can get. And if Ben can work toward that, more power to him. Now Ben headed a task force on education a few years ago. I think he understands the problem. Sure he understands the problem.

[00:08:25] Bud Smyser: But um, even he said not too long ago, when I asked him how much had been accomplished as result of that task force, the answer is zero. Mhm. Well, I hope he raises the the number up from zero to a considerably higher figure.

[00:08:40] Randall Roth: You know, I think I heard a little bit of optimism. Uh, George, it sounded to me like, like Bud was thinking that perhaps Governor Cayetano is going to be an an agent of change and good change at that. Uh, do you agree with that?

[00:08:54] George Chaplin: Uh, I've known Ben for a good many years as a legislator and as a Lieutenant Governor. Uh, I also was with him on one of these tourism study missions that happened to go to the Mediterranean, and actually was a roommate of his at some points during that uh project.

[00:09:16] Randall Roth: That sounds like a junket to me, George.

[00:09:17] George Chaplin: Uh, no junket. Bud was, having been on one of those, those were the kind of study missions you ought to have. People work like a Dickens for about 12 hours a day and then if they could find some time to play in the rest of the hours of the day they were allowed.

[00:09:28] Randall Roth: And and they really got to know one another, is that what Oh you really get to know uh each other on something like that because the guard is down. Bud and I were there to to report on the uh the findings as we went around asking people, officials in Italy, and France, and Spain, and that particular one we all did one in Latin America one down of legislators, tourism official leaders and a couple of newspaper guys. So you you got to know Ben Cayetano very well.

[00:09:58] George Chaplin: Yeah. I think I think of Ben uh, as a pretty independent uh sort of guy who doesn't mind taking an unpopular uh stand. Uh, he he uh he's tenacious. Uh, I think he has something of a temper but he certainly keeps it under control. He stayed on the high road on this uh campaign and refused to get out in the gutter with uh with Fassi for example. Uh, kept his cool. Uh, he uh came up from a humble beginning, worked his way up the ladder. I think you learn a lot on that journey. And uh he uh I think he's a good man, he'll be a good leader and I think he's smart enough to know the things he has to do and if I may, I'd like to comment on just a couple of things that I think he needs to do right from the beginning to begin to restore confidence.

[00:11:00] Randall Roth: Give us a couple of those and then I I each of you have have managed to to mention Frank Fassi already in this conversation and I'm I'm anxious to ask you about the monopoly press, but go ahead and tell me uh what

[00:11:11] Bud Smyser: As a footnote, it's hard to keep Frank out of any discussion that touches on politics.

[00:11:17] George Chaplin: I I think if Ben puts aside uh any suggestions of cronyism and selects for uh government posts people of uh of integrity and uh proven ability, even going outside the party in some cases, to to get top people, uh that will help him. Uh, I think maybe more more important than almost anything else is his insistence on high ethical standards and his determination to crack down hard and fast on anyone that violates those. I think uh Governor Waihee was uh rather slow in doing that, not in terms of his own behavior, but in terms of some of the behavior of people around him and and I think that eroded trust and uh and cost him heavily.

[00:12:13] George Chaplin: I think that uh Ben's awareness and he's already indicated this, that you can't cover the whole spectrum at one time. Any good leader picks out two or three major projects and although the others have merit, he puts those aside until later. As I indicated earlier, uh neither Carter nor Clinton seemed to have known that and tried to do everything and therefore got, although Clinton does have some uh positive achievements uh in his first two years, uh uh that that tends to uh uh undermine and undercut. I think it's terribly important that he be uh very open with the public and engage in active communication, uh clueing people in not only on what's going well, but acknowledging what's not going well and putting it into context. You know, nobody expects perfection. So I think if Ben sticks to some of those principles, he will begin to build trust uh not only among the people who voted uh voted for him, uh which sometimes would maybe have been a vote against the other two, but also uh for some some of the people in the uh psyche and even the Fassi camps.

[00:13:36] Randall Roth: Okay. In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and I'm sitting here with the two deans of the journalism profession in Hawaii, George Chaplin and Bud Smiser. They're sharing their thoughts about politics and are willing to answer your question or respond to your comment. Just call 955-8821. Well, Bud, I I do want to ask about the monopoly press, but I've got to ask you first, do you agree with these principles that George has just suggested that Ben Cayetano follow uh or are there any that you would want to add to that laundry list?

[00:14:10] Bud Smyser: No, I I think I I agree with what George said. I I would add openness. I think openness is a very healthy thing in government and uh I liked Mayor Linda Lingle of Maui years ago when she said, do we need a code to tell us what's ethical? I think if we keep things in the open, they will tend to be ethical. Mhm. Some some folks say, you know, you you talk about ethics only when you don't have them. Otherwise, you you live by them. Uh, well, let's talk a little bit about Frank Fassi's um, accusation.

[00:14:55] George Chaplin: Well, I'd like to paraphrase Ronald Reagan and say Frank, there you go again because he goes and he goes and he goes. And the truth is, he gets more space in the paper than any other politician because he makes news, whether it's I mean, he will say, well, some of it's negative, but it's on the front page and he's there and the he he he he knows the story of the papers. He's managed this great feat, absolutely great feat of being the top dog for over 20 years now as mayor and always assuming the posture of the underdog and getting away with it, and they talk about this awful media. Well, he he he he wraps the media around.

[00:15:30] Randall Roth: Is there nothing to his accusations? Because there are an awful lot of folks that uh that seem to relate to to this accusation that we're all being led around by uh by the monopoly press. Is there nothing to that? Uh uh? Bud?

[00:15:44] Bud Smyser: A newspaper editor is always trying to pour a gallon into one pint jar every day. If you want to name a story that didn't get in the paper, you can run 10 stories that didn't get in the paper, you can do it. And Frank can always find some. Uh, I think there's there's a dislike of the press for many reasons because it's too powerful. I don't think I don't think a paper edited by God himself could avoid criticism and being disliked so that uh

[00:16:14] Randall Roth: Well, let me ask George if if there's a conspiracy. I I keep uh I keep waiting to to hear that one side or the other uh

[00:16:22] George Chaplin: Frank Frank uh uh is a local Spiro Agnew. He feels he's got an automatic issue anytime things are not going exactly the way he wants by attacking quote the monopoly press unquote.

[00:16:40] Randall Roth: Now now Spiro, is that the one that was convicted of a crime? I'm not I'm not I'm not referring to that that part of his life, I'm referring to his constant attack on the FE Eastern uh, in his case uh, television networks. Frank feels as there's a ready made issue there because a lot of people uh are upset about the media.

[00:17:05] George Chaplin: It's a question of the message and the messenger. Uh, there's a lot of bad news in the world and people pick up their paper at the breakfast table or in the afternoon and they see this negative stuff and so they blame the press for they blame them the messenger for the message. Now on the matter of the monopoly, uh if the two papers had not entered into a partial consolidation with ownership and editorial policy remaining separate and independent, we would have one newspaper in this town, and that would indeed be a monopoly. In some 25 cities in the United States, the community has two papers because of a joint operating arrangement. Frank sued the two papers and the Hawaii Newspaper Agency in federal court some years ago and lost uh uh he tried for 17 years to get a council majority to go along with him and it took that long to get one, and so one of the things he lost it on is what you lawyers call latches, he had waited simply too long. But the other is that he lost on the merits. And but that doesn't being proved wrong has never deterred uh Frank and uh he's never inhibited by the facts or the truth. So uh uh he said he's going to continue to fight the papers until he dies and I believe that.

[00:18:41] Randall Roth: Well, there you have it folks. uh I just like to add do we make mistakes? Do we do do a lot of things wrong? Yes, yes, yes. Of course, but we don't try Now now come on, don't make yourselves out to be the underdog. We've already got one there. Well, listeners Well I just want to add that we are writing history in a hurry.

[00:18:58] George Chaplin: Every every day Newspapers start with literally a couple of tons of clean paper, and by the end of that day they put down and printed enough words to fill a good-sized book day in and day out. Are you going to goof, you are going to goof every day. You hope the goofs are small.

[00:19:18] Bud Smyser: But they're out in the open unlike things in legal briefs and elsewhere that nobody. There are plenty of mistakes in history books and all around. Ours are right out out there in the open for everybody to see and we get corrected on it pretty fast.

[00:19:29] George Chaplin: Now, it sounds to me like you're slinging mud at the legal profession and I'll ask you what about mudslinging? In in this last campaign, we saw a lot of what everyone would acknowledge as negative campaigning. Did it slip below the belt? Was it so negative as to be unfair to to simply be the sort of thing that that we as a community should be upset about, but?

[00:19:53] Bud Smyser: I assume by historical standards it wasn't all that bad. On the other hand, it wasn't all that good. And I I really believe that if Frank Fasi had campaigned and said, look, we have a city of Honolulu that runs very well, wouldn't you want the state government to run just as well? And hardly said anything else the whole campaign, I think he might have won.

[00:20:15] George Chaplin: Yeah, I've I've had uh some other folks, a lot of folks say that if he had run a different sort of campaign, he would have won. George, what do you think about that?

[00:20:22] Bud Smyser: Well, first let me say that uh that Frank is incapable of staying on the high road.

[00:20:29] George Chaplin: I hope he's listening. The number for Frank is 955-8821. Go ahead, George.

[00:20:33] Bud Smyser: Call in, Frank, you've called me many times over the years and and uh some of the language had to be expurgated, but that's all right.

[00:20:40] George Chaplin: We don't have a turnoff button, so we're not like KGU. Go ahead, go ahead.

[00:20:44] Bud Smyser: I think I I disagree a little with Bud in the in and and uh as to the nature of this campaign, I found it uh and maybe it's because of my maturity and I'm forgetful, but I found it the nastiest and the most vicious and the most poisonous that I can recall in my 36 years. Uh

[00:21:08] George Chaplin: Is that? Why is that? Are there some specific things? Well, when I say historical standards, I was talking nationally, I would agree with you. It is probably as mean as any. Yeah. Oh boy. If the two of you say that this is the meanest we've had in modern memory. Well, I I I I think that's especially true of the commercials on television, and if uh I seem to be critical of TV, it's only because I am. Uh I think TV has trivialized the American political process and uh and much else in American life with its glorification of uh of crime and violence. And the only redeeming feature of the local TV commercials, such as those like morphing and is is that frankly, I think they backfired because it was so extreme. I think that type of campaign cost Frank heavily. And I think Bud was in a meeting something of that. He uh he he ran as a loner, which he is fairly typical for him. Who were the the commercials? Mostly his family. Uh, and that's fine. Families ought to be supportive. But uh, Frank wants the media to be a mouthpiece of City Hall in the old days and that's not the function of the press. That's not what Madison, Jeff and Ned Aal had in mind.

[00:22:28] George Chaplin: Let me ask the two of you, a lot of people during this campaign said, we want change. Um do the two of you feel that the win in Hawaii, number one, need change? And do we want it? And just how do you feel about that, Bud?

[00:22:45] Bud Smyser: Yes, I think we need change. I also offered the Republicans the motto that they didn't take, we'll make government lean and clean. And I think we want to make government lean and clean.

[00:23:01] George Chaplin: It hasn't been lean and clean in the past. It's not lean enough, it's not clean enough. And under John Whae, uh he will tell you there are some reasons that for this that but the state added as many employees more than 10,000 as are employed by the entire City County government of Honolulu. Now, that's pretty fast growth in eight years. And some of it was responding to to federal mandates. Some of it was an effort to increase programs, to marily in education and health, which the community approves of. But nonetheless, we've put up on the shoulders of our taxpayers a terribly, terribly heavy load and we ought to try to lighten that load. George? I think uh people want change, but uh I define change not not only in specifics of uh reducing waste uh etc. Uh but in in philosophical terms. I come back to saying that people want hope. I think that increasingly in recent years uh people in Hawaii have felt that they're losing control over their own destiny, that things are beyond their handling. And that government has no real interest despite the rhetoric, no real interest in them or less interest in them than in their own personal uh welfare. When the Democrats came into power here uh going on what, 40 years ago, uh a little less than that in terms of electing a governor, the house Bud was 54 the Democrats, they took control of the house and Senate in 54 and they governorship in 62. They got the whole ball of wax in 62 and they voted ever since. Okay. There was a an idealism at that time, of feeling that they were there to really serve the public. You you began to have land reform and other things. I think that uh that uh in Lincoln Steffen's autobiography, he talks about how reformers, if they stay in too long, become just as bad as if not worse than the people they they succeeded. And so I think there's a perception and with some justification, maybe abundant justification, that many in the legislature, not all, a good meaning in the legislature are more interested in personal welfare than in general welfare, or public welfare. And that uh I think, I so I think the the matter of change in substantial measure involves uh attitudes and people feeling if Ben Kayetano can generate a sense of hope and a sense of renewed trust in government, I can't think of a greater change. Okay, other things can follow. I'd like to volunteer what I think is one very nice aspect of this election, and that's regardless of your political beliefs, Hawaii has really proved itself a rainbow. Our first two governors were Caucasian, our second governor was Japanese, our third governor was Hawaiian with a splash of Chinese in him and our fourth governor is going to be Filipino. All of our ethnic groups have got a crack at the at the governorship, and I think that's just great.

[00:26:31] Bud Smyser: Only 12%, about 12% of the population, Filipinos about that. Something like that. Yeah, a minority interesting. Minority group. And yet, here is the guy coming out of of a group that on the socio-economic ladder is uh has not been faring all that well, in part because of a great influx of immigrants. They don't have to be bound by the quotas because they have families here, can get in quite easily. Fastest, it's the largest incoming group in terms of immigration in Hawaii, Filipinos. And for him to come out of that background and make it, I agree totally with Bud. I think that that is a is a validation of a democratic process, small D. Sounds good. I'm Randy Roth, and two of my favorite people are here today to talk about the recent election and anything else that um they think is important to share with us. The fellow on my left is George Chaplin, long time editor of the Advertiser. and then the fellow on my right is Bud Smyser, who for 48 years has been uh associated with the Star Bulletin in some editorial capacity. We are live and are in calls are welcome. The number is 955-8821. Well in a moment, I'm going to ask if it was just an accident, George, that you're on my left and Bud is on my right, or if that says something about the editorial uh leaning of of either newspaper. But first we have a caller from the Big Island. David, you're on the air. Good morning, Randy. Good morning. I have a question for your guest. Uh the question is what they think is the future for the Green Party in this state. Uh the Green Party candidate as you know got 4% of the vote. And here on the Big Island, we have the nation's first elected Green Party person in our County Council and she's been reelected and she is twice as good as anybody else on the council in my opinion.

[00:28:23] George Chaplin: Well, let me ask uh George Chaplin, what do you think about the Green Party? I guess the bad news is it didn't get the 10% that it was hoping for and a minimum. The good news is, I guess Kioni Dudley got an awful lot of, relatively speaking, compared to past campaigns, a lot of attention in the media. What do you think?

[00:29:11] Bud Smyser: Well, I admire uh people who have positive stands on public issues. And uh I don't, I think that an organization like the Green Party simply has to stick to its principles, hang in there. And uh so if it gets knocked down in this election or another election, so what? You pick yourself up and and you go on. So I think we need that kind of diversity. It'll be a long time in my judgment before the Green Party or the Libertarian Party or or uh other such organizations uh really come to the top, but uh people should stick to their principles. Let me ask, Bud, do you think that the the Green Party has done a good job of making clear to the community just what it is that's unique about the Green Party, what they have to offer that's different from what the other parties are offering? I think Kioni Dudley was a good spokesman. And um as as much as I read and heard about him, he's for less government, a little bit like the Libertarians. And I think the Green Party probably never will be a majority party in Hawaii. Maybe the Republicans won't be a majority party again either. I don't know, but they I think the Republicans, for all their problem problems, have more hope of becoming a majority party, but the Greens can do what parties, socialists and others have done in throughout American history, influence the two major parties. And I think the fact that the Green Council member on the Big Island has helped create the majority there means that she's going to have quite a voice and I assume it's going to be exercised to show her environmental concerns. And I if I were a developer on the Big Island, I would want to be mighty sure my project uh could pass all the environmental tests. Mhm. Okay. Well, David, uh any other question you like to ask? No, that's it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Our next caller is Jack from downtown Honolulu. Jack, you're on the air. Okay. You may have covered this. I'm not sure. Do you think that if Frank or Pat Saiki had run alone against uh Kono, the result would have been different?

[00:31:03] George Chaplin: George, what do you think? Uh let's we can talk about who would be uh on top of that ticket in a moment. But if they'd run together or if either had run without the other running?

[00:31:12] Bud Smyser: I I think it's quite likely that things could have been different. I think Bud's got some figures over there. I wish I don't have, but my recollection is that uh Cayetano had what about 100 and He had about 135,000 votes and the votes against him totaled up to nearly 235,000. Right. Now that's the question of if either Frank or Pat were running against him, how many of that uh combined vote would he have gotten? And I think that's a very iffy question. I think it's quite likely that with the mood uh of the country, Hawaii being an exception, but the exception may be because there were three people running for governor rather than just two. Who was I know that Senator Fong urged Pat Saiki to go on a ticket with Frank. And of course, that meant she'd have to take second place, because no way would Frank take second place. To anything. I I I think that uh that ticket very well might have won. Uh, and maybe four years from now, Frank would graciously retire, I got it. And and and turn the governorship over to Pat, but but that was an impossible thing. I I I have a feeling that in a one-on-one, it would be a horse race, and I I was tickled to see Ben say he would have liked to run one-on-one to show that he really could win. That'd be good. Who who was the spoiler? I I guess you're saying that uh Frank Fasi was the spoiler, if one of them has to be. Well, Frank said, give me the Republican nomination, or I start my own party. I guess that's the definition of a spoiler, isn't it? Jack, what do you think of all that? Well, I I think it's pure speculation, but uh No, wait a minute, you asked him to speculate. Frankly, I I was in favor of Frank, but I agree that he hurt himself by advertising too much in the first place. He had a lot of money to spend. Mhm. Secondly, uh you know, putting his little shenanigans, it really was typical of him but is not really his true character. I happen to know him very well. I I really believe he would have been a real excellent governor. You know, Bud said something similar to what you you started with, and and that is Bud feels that if if Frank Fasi had run a different sort of campaign, he probably would be governor right now. Yeah, well, that's what what do you think Frank's future is? He says he'll still remain in politics. Well, George Chaplin, what do you think? Well, But I But doesn't think he's going to retire ever. What do you think, George? Well, I think Frank is incapable of retiring. I think that massive ego uh is going to keep him somewhere in the political scene. But, a lot of people or some people are speculating he might run against Jeremy Harris for mayor two years from now. My own guess is that if Jeremy can Jeremy continues the way he's going, uh he's going to be unbeatable not only by Frank, but probably by any other mayoral candidate. He's put X, he's doing he's done some of the things that I would like to see Ben Kayetano do. He's picked out good people. Uh Bob Fishman, Ann Kayetano, uh And and and Kovayashi. and Kovayashi. Uh and and and people like that. and he's Frank's it's Frank's own managing director. It's going to be a little hard for Frank to come in and say what a terrible guy he is. Okay. Thank you Jack. Appreciate your call. Thank you for your answers. You bet. Uh in case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and I'm sitting here with uh two deans of journalism, profession in Hawaii, George Chaplin and Bud Smyser. They're sharing their thoughts about politics, and are willing to answer your question or respond to your comment. Just call 955-8821 and neighbor islanders are always invited to call collect. The number again, 955-8821. We have a caller from Inana. Joe, you're on the air. Good morning, Joe. Joe, are you there? Joe, I can hear you. changed his mind. Uh, a little bit ago, we were talking about uh whether or not we really need change in Hawaii, and each of you were saying, well, yes, and giving us some examples. Let's pretend for a minute that either Bud Smyser or George Chaplin had just been elected governor. Uh Bud, what are a couple of the specific things that you would really work hard to accomplish? I think I would uh say that the state government will not add a single new employee, that when we have to meet a need for a new program, we will only do it if we can shrink another program, uh cut government by attrition. Um, I would shrink the size of government. I would try to do more of privatizing. We're doing a little bit of privatizing, and we should do more. I would love to see private schools get a chance to show whether they can do anything in the public school system. The HGEA thinks that because they operate for profit, they can't possibly be any good. I would uh I would work with the board of education to get better contracts to allow the school system to be better managed. I think there are some encouraging signs in the school system. I think the fact that superintendent Azawa has a four-year contract, then it has benchmarks in it, is good. I gather they don't have any job descriptions for half the people in the department, including the superintendent. So it's kind of hard to evaluate somebody you don't have a job description on. And we all know there are too many people in the hierarchy of the DOE. Charlie Taguchi had a plan called KHO to get over a thousand of them out. He worked for six years on it and he couldn't do it. We ought to get them out. Okay. And so I would focus on education, I would I would focus on leaner and cleaner. I would do what I could to stimulate the economy. Sounds sounds good to me. We've got a caller from uh Honolulu. Nancy. Nancy, you're on the air. Okay, well, I'm a frustrated Republican who feels that uh the future of this state uh really depends on building up some strength in the Republican party so that it can once again become a real competitor. What we have now, um, and the reason I'm frustrated is because it no matter how good our candidates can be and have been, particularly in this election in many instances, they were defeated by inferior Democrats, in my opinion, and the the reason for that is the tremendous power of an entrenched bureaucracy, of pressure groups, of unions, of of groups that can say to their people, you have to get out and work for these people. Whereas in the Republican side, anybody who gets out and works for anybody does

[00:38:00] Speaker 1: that is purely a volunteer, is purely an independent person.

[00:38:03] Randall Roth: Nancy, let me get George Chapman's comments on that, and then I want to come right back to you.

[00:38:07] Speaker 1: Well, I got more to say, too.

[00:38:08] Randall Roth: Well, I know, and I want him to respond to that, and then I want to hear the rest of what you have to say.

[00:38:12] George Chaplin: George? I think the the Republican Party has a a very rough road to travel, but uh, I don't think it should give up. I think it should try to find ways to pull bright, young people in, idealistic people, new faces. Uh, there are a lot of people around that I think could be encouraged. People who are somewhat more conservative than the uh than the current uh Democratic uh hierarchy. Uh, but it's going to it's going to be a long pull. Uh, remember the Republicans were in control from uh annexation until the 50s. And uh, it it was not easy, but uh, people get disenchanted with uh organizations that have been in power too long, and uh, and maybe rightly so because uh they tend to get fat, they tend to get arrogant, they tend to get self-centered.

[00:39:20] Randall Roth: So, you're not disagreeing with Nancy, you're just saying she maybe needs to be patient that change doesn't happen overnight.

[00:39:26] George Chaplin: Is that what you're saying? Well, I'm saying a lot of hard work and and recruiting uh bright, young people. They're out there. I think that many of them tend to be apathetic because they think their votes don't count. And uh, they need a platform that uh that can resonate among uh uh people who are not now members of the of the party. I I don't I don't write off the Republican Party as necessarily being dead. If it if it feels it's dead, as some of them some of the members feel, that's a different matter.

[00:40:01] Randall Roth: Okay.

[00:40:02] Speaker 1: Can I say something more? Go ahead. Yeah. Well, I I feel strongly this way, that we have now factionalism and that's very unhealthy. We have minority rule. It's always one faction of the Democratic Party and you have promising new young legislators, most of them Democrats, who are afraid to do or say anything and therefore are just impotent because they're afraid they'll end up in the wrong faction. Whereas the Republicans at least are free to speak out and say something and get to the press, which they do. But the point is, let me just make one more point, is that it requires We did have good and bright and promising candidates, but the point is it takes a terrible sacrifice because the road is so uphill. It means a terrible sacrifice in time and money when when there's almost no help uh from any side to try to keep pushing this idea that our state would be so much better if we had real competition in terms of one opposite force. I I would like our candidates to say why they are Republicans when it would be so much easier to be a Democrat. That would be very strong in my opinion.

[00:41:02] Randall Roth: You know, Nancy, as as I was listening to you, and and and you're you're quite eloquent on on the points you're making, I was reminded of some things that Orson Swindle said in what I guess I'll call his concession concession speech. But what are your thoughts on on Orson's comments, you know, um, toward the end of the of the uh results?

[00:41:23] George Chaplin: Well, let's take um all of Orson. Orson is a straight shooter, a fine man, very conservative, uses more conservative than mine, but I think he's actually closer to me in terms of his attitudes and positions about government than my congressman, Neil Abercrombie. Neil is for big government, Orson is for small government. Orson was for uh NAFTA. Neil was against it. Neil really kind of bullies the military over Bellos field. He has a he has a reasonable issue there, but I think he goes that in the bullying fashion. So I think Orson was a good contributor to the campaign. I think he's well-connected back in Washington. I agree that at the very last moment, that was a snarl instead of jumping across the net to shake hands with the winner or a pat on the back. But uh What was that snarl maybe in order? Is that something that might Well, I would say at the end of a hot campaign, I wouldn't hold it against him too much. I think I don't know if he would change it, if he could rethink it or not. But you don't think it's going to help him. No, but I I don't believe it's going to hurt. I think it's going to show a guy who has deep convictions. and deep convictions are kind of nice for people to have.

[00:42:30] Speaker 1: George, what a contrast with Pat Saiki's extremely gracious concession speech. I I I think uh You were more impressed with her graciousness, is that what you're saying, George? Well, at the end, uh she uh accepted the the reality and uh uh said some of the standard things that the defeated are supposed to say to the victors, but she went on to express the hope that uh Ben Cayetano and Mazie Hirono, uh who I'm glad to see that Ben is going to give a more prominent role than uh Lieutenant Governor's have usually had. Uh Pat was unusually gracious. I I uh I admire the way she handled herself at the end. Orson uh was a sorehead and a and a poor loser.

[00:43:26] Speaker 1: Those weren't my points. I tend to agree with the way they handled the end of the campaign, but the the whole point is that our state would benefit so much if we had competition to to to be able to to show or to get people to choose. Uh uh this way I think we could possibly shrink our government if we can get some more competition in there and and and and and and and make our cost of living a lot less. We For a little state like this, my gosh, the the size of our government is just incredible.

[00:43:57] Randall Roth: Nancy, let me ask you a question. Have have you ever thought about running for office?

[00:44:01] Speaker 1: Well, yes, I have. But I I I cannot for very very many many many reasons, but I certainly have always been a political activist. Let's put it that way, and I'm involved in many other things.

[00:44:13] Randall Roth: And the reason I asked the question isn't to get into your specific circumstances and the specific reasons why you wouldn't run, but the notion that the way things are set up right now, there are an awful lot of good people who would never consider running because we, the community, kind of beat them up and start uh uh questioning their motives as soon as they run for office, is uh is that part of what's going on?

[00:44:36] Speaker 1: Yes. And um I I just uh I feel that in many areas that it would be it would be hopeless for a Republican, and they know that. You know, because the the you have to start somewhere, and I agree we ought to be starting with more of the house races and the senate races, local and so forth. And we've done fairly well a few a few few times, a few places. Okay. But, boy, it's an uphill fight, and and there has to be some understanding, which I think the newspapers and and television reporting and radio reporting could help with, to to let people to to I think we need stronger parties and more ideology uh spoken rather than less.

[00:45:12] Randall Roth: Nancy, I really appreciate your your comments a lot. We've got some folks who have been waiting on the line.

[00:45:16] Speaker 1: Okay. That's fine. I've had my say.

[00:45:18] Randall Roth: Thank you, Nancy, appreciate it.

[00:47:34] George Chaplin: everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni everybody's eyes are ni

[00:48:03] Randall Roth: think ask your guests this. I I've heard that uh Governor has said that one of the proudest accomplishments of his administration has been the Uniform Information Practices Act and the effectiveness of the uh Office of Information practices. And I wanted to find out if uh these gentlemen feel that uh Governor Kayetano will be as supportive of that as uh has been. George Chapman, what do you think?

[00:48:30] George Chaplin: I know you suggested that Ben Cayetano have as as open a government as possible. I think that Ben will be uh uh equally supportive of uh those agencies, but beyond that, I think he has the opportunity to uh have an ongoing dialogue uh with the public. Uh the the it's been said that the job of the press is disclosure. Uh the tendency of government is to be secretive. Uh government likes to hide anything that it feels is negative. Uh it comes out anyway. Uh I think the smart thing is if there's some goofing, uh a governor is the first to bring it out and acknowledge it, explain why and go on from there.

[00:49:23] Randall Roth: Bud, do you have any thoughts?

[00:49:25] Bud Smyser: Well, I would like to uh uh kind of agree with George, but then go on to say that our first governor, Bill Quinn, frequently went on radio, and I guess on television, too, to make addresses to the community on issues of concern. Now, he didn't get reelected, so maybe that says that wasn't the world's best tactic. But I I thought it was a very good tactic and I've wished our governors since then would not do it all the time, but would get out and talk to the people by way of television, uh and tell them, you know, I have a big issue, and not just make them wait for a state of the state address or something like that. Get out and and and and and and tell the people, that's an act of leadership, and we need we're going to need I my my feeling is the next four years are going to be the toughest four years Hawaii's had since statehood, and we need leadership in the worst kind of way. And Ben needs to rally all of us to work around and help and support him.

[00:50:19] Randall Roth: I noticed George Chapman nodding his agreement that uh the challenge is great. We need leadership. Jim, communication. Yeah. Jim, does that answer your question?

[00:50:28] Caller: I think so. It sounds like uh they they both feel that uh the governor the new governor will definitely be supportive of making government records as open as possible and of uh public access access to records, which is uh what my understanding is OIP does.

[00:50:43] George Chaplin: That's a law now. You can't change it very easily.

[00:50:45] Randall Roth: Yeah. Okay, thank you, Jim, appreciate your call. We have from Manoa, Don. Don, you're on the air.

[00:50:51] Caller: Yeah, good morning.

[00:50:52] Randall Roth: Good morning.

[00:50:53] Caller: I have a question to ask both George and Bud. We've been talking about change because of the election of Kayetano but nothing's much changed in the legislature. We still have the factionalization, and the entrenchment of the powers that exist now. I I'm curious as to how they feel that Kayetano can affect some change through the legislature, so that changes can be made within the areas that we were discussing of education, for example.

[00:51:23] Bud Smyser: Well, but you've done a lot of talking about education this morning, uh given the fact that we've got the same leadership in um in the legislature that we had before this election, uh are you optimistic or or not in terms of change in the area of education? I think the I think the legislature is going to be pretty tough in its dealings with the governor. I think that Norman Mizuguchi uh has a tightly organized crew, and I believe that Speaker Suki does too. But uh that doesn't mean they can't get together and work things out, and I certainly hope they will.

[00:51:54] George Chaplin: Uh I was disappointed in the last session of the legislature for a variety of reasons. I agree that they're I think the legislature has got to rise above petty thinking and personal interests. Uh But the governor, and this sounds a little uh farfetched perhaps, but the governor can also go to the public. If the legislature is stimying him on things that he really feels are uh uh uh deeply needed, fact that they're of the same party, should in no way deter him from from going out and asking for public support and laying it out. Go to the people. Go to the people.

[00:52:46] Caller: Okay. Don, does that answer your question? Uh, it does partially. Go to the people. We went to the people during this last election, and then and then the 90, whatever percent of the case it was, they sent the same people back. Mhm. So, Mizuguchi and and Suki still have their very tight organizations, and newcomers are going to have a tough time breaking in. And I just I would like to think that going over the heads of the legislature directly to the people that the people will respond. Mhm. This is time for me to cut in and ask a question of our host. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Okay. Randy Roth uh first of all coordinated the books Price of Paradise two volumes, and since then he's been coordinating the Price of Paradise radio show and he worked with the advertiser and channel two on the the Pop Pop 94 programs. And the star bulletin matched it to some extent with a Power 94 program. There was more, we said there was more mudslinging in this campaign, there was also more discussion of issues in this campaign. Randy Roth, do you think that's going to have any effect on the way our legislators and governor conduct themselves in office?

[00:53:54] Randall Roth: Uh, I hope so. Um, I think what we tried to do with Pop 94 and I know you did with uh with Power 94 was to get the people in the community feeling more ownership of of the process, more responsibility for elevating the whole thing. And I'm a big believer in in good questions. I think that if if we members of the community can ask really good questions and and insist upon an answer that's reasonably specific, reasonably clear. Um, I think that it's a slow process, but it will head us in the right direction. Uh, is that okay, Bud?

[00:54:29] Bud Smyser: Yeah, I I would buy that. Okay. I'm holding my feet to the fire here, George.

[00:54:33] George Chaplin: I think the governor has got a lot of muscle and should not be reluctant to use it uh in a proper fashion. And uh I don't uh know of any governor in recent times or any governor who has gone to the public when he felt stimied by the legislature on issues that count. Okay. Don, I appreciate your call.

[00:54:58] Randall Roth: We've got uh a fellow from Maui who's been holding for some time and my wife, the producer, said uh let's move to him because Okay, I I appreciate the call. Okay, I appreciate ending on an optimistic note. All right, thank you, Don. Uh, Bill from Maui, you've been very patient. Welcome to the Price of Paradise radio show.

[00:55:15] Caller: Well, the question I have is, I've been here for 17 years. Uh, I've never seen an analysis of where is the fat in government. And is some of the fat because we are several islands rather than being one contiguous body, landmass?

[00:55:32] Randall Roth: Okay, Bill, let me let me um direct that to Bud Smiser who said we need to get uh leaner. Where is the fat, Bud?

[00:55:39] Bud Smyser: I think uh we have many departments that are overstaffed, and I think I'm correct in telling you that a to get a purchasing order through the government, you have to get 13 approvals. It has to start in the department, it has to go up the department accounting and General Services, it has to come back down. Uh I I was very impressed by Phil Bossert rating writing in the Star Bulletin not too long ago. He had had some time in government in the Department of Education, and he said he went in with the idea that government employees were a bunch of lazy louts. And he said he discovered that's not true, that most of them are very conscientious and work hard. The problem is that within our government structure, you work twice as hard to get half as much done as you would in private industry.

[00:56:23] Randall Roth: It's a system problem. It's a system problem as much as anything else. And we've got to get at this. We're not going to be able to change it all at once, but we've got to start working on it. Hm. So if we change the system, then we don't need as many people as we currently have.

[00:56:37] Bud Smyser: No, I mean, do you does does any business in your knowledge require 13 signatures on a purchasing order, at two months to get it cleared through all the people? It's nutty.

[00:56:47] Randall Roth: George, do you have anything to add before we go back to Bill?

[00:56:49] George Chaplin: No, except that some move toward restructuring, it it it it might be worthwhile to study the whole setup. Maybe we don't need as many departments. Maybe there should be some concern.

[00:57:00] Speaker 1: validation

[00:57:00] Randall Roth: But you're confident that that there is fact.

[00:57:03] Speaker 3: Oh, sure, absolutely.

[00:57:05] Randall Roth: Okay. Bill.

[00:57:07] Caller: Well, but so, I've never seen it analyzed in the paper and so on, you know, we we can think about the problem.

[00:57:13] Randall Roth: Well, we've got a couple newspaper men here. Uh, I'll tell you what, uh Bill, let's you and I suggest that they, uh, they get some analysis on that.

[00:57:21] Caller: I'm retired.

[00:57:23] Randall Roth: I I think some of those things have been in print. Anyway, go ahead, Bill. We appreciate your call. I've got some more folks on the line. I'm going to move on. Thank you. Uh another caller from Maui, Nick, you're on the air. Good morning.

[00:57:34] Caller: Uh good morning. Uh just two fast questions. I'd like some commentary on. The uh first thing I heard this morning was the comment someone question someone had on the green party. I'm wondering if one, if there was a uh if Fossy had not run as a uh third party, if there just been Republican Democrats, if you feel the greens would have gotten their 10%. And also one of the uh comments that a lot of people have made is they didn't see much difference between Fossy, Cayetano, and Psyche, they really with very few exception come from the same place. Um, if you see that there really is a need for a very diverse party because again, as has been said before, um, when Abraham Lincoln won in 1860, he was a third party. So could you comment on that?

[00:58:18] Randall Roth: Who wants to uh take that, Bud? Give it a shot. They're they're pointing at each other uh Nick, I'm not sure what that means. George, give it a try.

[00:58:27] George Chaplin: Well, I I I uh only get back to suggesting that the that the greens hang in and uh and uh keep plugging away that no, they no uh uh third parties have always had a rough time, but people should stick their principles, Bud.

[00:58:44] Bud Smyser: Well third parties don't usually become majorities, but they can in in influence the majorities. And I I I I thought Kimo Dudley was a very respectable candidate for governor. Uh he he he didn't get as many votes as he wanted, but he had an influence on the campaign, and he was heard, and I think he can continue he can continue to be heard. I hope he'll speak up sometimes and say, hey you guys, you're doing it wrong.

[00:59:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Nick, appreciate your call. We're down to the last few minutes of the show, and um a topic that's been in the newspapers lately and and I think folks are going to be hearing a lot more about it over the next few weeks, has to do with the law school. And uh the two of you were around 20 years or so ago at the birth of the law school. And I'm just curious whether you have any thoughts about um then and now uh with respect to the law school, Bud.

[00:59:38] Bud Smyser: Then and now, questions were raised about whether the University of Hawaii needed a law school and a medical school. Uh the legislature decided yes on those. The law school in particular became a real force in the community. It produced a lot of people who moved on to be a very in in influential, the very first class turned out Governor Wayhe. And so it has been a force in the community. Maybe one of its problems is sometimes it's too much of a force in the community for other people's satisfaction. But uh I hope its problems work out and I hope that um that it moves on. I I don't think it's going to be abolished. I don't think the medical school is going to be abolished. I can understand President Mortimer if he says, we can't give you a bigger percentage of the pie than you have already because we have too many other demands. That may be part of the friction between Dean Harrison and President Mortimer.

[01:00:30] Randall Roth: Okay. George?

[01:00:31] George Chaplin: I think both those schools uh are essential. Uh there are people who are lawyers and good lawyers today, who probably would not be lawyers uh if they had to go to the mainland where they couldn't afford to go and so on. Pacific Islanders coming up uh uh for instruction and medicine especially. Uh I think the legislature and others in the power structure have got to learn that it's nonproductive to try to force a dean of a law school to accept uh unqualified uh people just because they happen to be a a cousin of a legislator or of a or a friend a son of a close friend, and that sort of thing. I think that part's terrible. We've gone through that before. The advertiser many years ago blew the whistle on uh pressure. And uh of course the president of university is in a tough spot because the legislature has control his budget and uh if he gets too uh uh pugnacious for them on on on the on this matter of principle, uh the whole university can suffer.

[01:01:47] George Chaplin: So it's a tug of war uh, but I think that Jeremy Harrison has been a uh as far as I know, a first rate Dean and very good.

[01:02:17] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, George Chaplin and Bud Smizer. Today's show was produced by Suzy Roth with help on the phones from Walter Roth and technical support from Jeff Hilardy. I hope you can tune in next week when guest host Calvin Pang and his guests will be talking about current issues having to do with adoption. One of his guests, Annette Baron is an internationally recognized authority who has written a book entitled The Adoption Triangle, the effects of sealed and opened records on adoptees, birth parents, and adoptive parents. The other guest, Judge Francis Wong, has been the chief judge of Hawaii's family court and is herself an adoptive parent. The guest host, Calvin Pang is a colleague of mine at the University of Hawaii School of Law, and himself an authority on family law. It promises to be a great conversation that you won't want to miss. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.