Religion and Politics in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-09-15
Guests: Marc Alexander (Coordinator, Hawaii Catholic Conference; organizer, Hawaii's Future Today); Mike Young (minister, First Unitarian Church, Oahu)
Duration: 1:01:04

[00:00:00] Marc Alexander: more that would be represented by the liberal religious establishment. And unfortunately, they've tried, frequently people have, to sort of make the religious right out into this this monstrous group and to put a bunch of other people that normally are not associated with them into that group. So you hear things like over 70% of the people in Hawaii oppose the legalization of same sex marriage and advocates of this position are members of the religious right, which of course would be rather humorous because that would mean 70% of the people in Hawaii are members of the religious right.

[00:00:34] Speaker 0:Mike Young: Also try to explain exactly what the function or what the religious conservatives are in our community, and to try to make it rather clear that although they have been more present in recent years in the Republican Party, even there they have not been necessarily well-received. And in fact, what people would call the so-called religious right doesn't exist in any great number here in Hawaii.

[00:00:56] Marc Alexander: And when you say people, um, you're you're generally critical of the media. You feel that that this label has been um, used by the media to discredit or or marginalize the voice that you're a part of.

[00:01:09] Speaker 0:Mike Young: Yes, definitely. It's it's become a real slogan that is used to describe anyone who disagrees with what happens to be a particular liberal agenda. So it's a very unnuanced, unreflective term.

[00:01:21] Marc Alexander: So uh, native Hawaiians for example, when they're talking about their religious beliefs, uh there would be real positive terms used there, but when you're talking about something that has moral overtones, it's the religious right or fundamentalists or something like that?

[00:01:36] Speaker 0:Mike Young: Exactly. That tends to be frequently the case, even though when you look at the specific issues for example that the Catholic Church would advocate, they would not fit into the agenda of the so-called religious right.

[00:01:48] Marc Alexander: Okay. Well, now that's the build up. What'd they leave out of the article that has you a little bit fired up?

[00:01:53] Speaker 0:Mike Young: Well, they left out the following paragraphs. The Catholic method of public policy argumentation is more reflective than that usually attributed to the so-called religious right. We do not jump directly from basic theological beliefs to policy recommendations. We believe that universal truths about persons and society are implanted in the human conscience and available regardless of creed or culture. Healthy public policy should conform to these truths rather than contradict them. This is also the approach of Hawaii's future today, which I serve as a co-chair. We seek to bring people of all creeds and cultures together to promote the state's continued recognition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman based on the conviction that traditional marriage is an enduring and valuable social institution. We do not agree on theology and we do not need to. In contemporary Hawaii, we need whatever wisdom is available from any and all people to formulate good public policy. No one's voice should be ignored, regardless of the popularity of their basic beliefs. If we can only be calm and reflective and avoid excessive emotion, hype, and stereotypes, perhaps we can find our way together as a peaceable pluralistic society.

[00:03:12] Marc Alexander: Well, and we don't want this show to turn into a a show on the media, but just so our listeners understand, you don't think it was an accident that that got cut off.

[00:03:21] Speaker 0:Mike Young: No, I don't, especially since it seemed, you know, that uh, Miss Kobayashi received a a lot more space than I did, so it seems to be a little peculiar, let's put it that way.

[00:03:30] Marc Alexander: And the drafts that were sent in were the same size, as you know. We have ground rules that we follow here. So, okay. Um, and I'm going to I'm going to tell you a little bit more about uh Mark in in just a few minutes, but we've got a couple people on the phone. I think uh, let's see, first we'll go to uh Terry Bosgra. Uh Terry, I happen to know because just by coincidence I buy my car insurance from him. He has a State Farm insurance agency, but from 1969 to 1981, Terry was the spokesman for an organization known as the Coalition of Clergy, and he can tell you a little bit more about that in just a minute. Uh, currently he does a daily editorial on uh three different radio stations. There's one on Maui and then a couple here on Oahu. Uh, one of them I know is KA KAIM uh 830 on the AM dial. Terry, are you there?

[00:04:20] Randall Roth: I am here, Randy.

[00:04:21] Marc Alexander: Uh, could you just real briefly share your thoughts about uh either what you just heard Mark Alexander talking about or about our topic of of the mixing of politics and religion or or what the headline in the paper uh focused on, and that is the so-called religious right.

[00:04:39] Randall Roth: Okay, uh Randy, I just five minutes ago read that article. I uh I wish I had had a little more reflective time, but I was so happy that Mark got first because I can say amen to what he said, four columns for Ann and two columns for Mark. Uh, I take strong issue however with Ann Kobayashi. When a group of people at that time got involved in the party with high moral standards and called for a shift back to to virtues uh which we once had and bolted from the party along with Donna Ikeda, Ann and Donna were always philosophically much closer aligned with the Democratic Party position on the moral issues, but what do you tell your voters when you abandon them? You blame Pat Robertson, you blame the fundamentalists, you blame the media, you blame the extremists. So, if Ann had been willing to sit down and listen, who are these extremists, she would have discovered that these are the people that are the very backbone of our culture today, because who are we? We are the people uh uh and I want you to know that I I was never involved in the Christian coalition, I was never involved in the Pat Robertson movement, uh or any, but I was I was active. I was active in the in the uh virtues or or to bring back some some common sense into Hawaii politics. We basically are looking for a Hawaii where a child needs uh for time can have time with its parents and that is a priority. We're looking for a Hawaii where priority is reflected in private decisions, of family responsibility where it is favorable tax treatment to family, we look for a Hawaii where family togetherness is prized, not a far-off dream in some basic distant utopia. We are very ordinary people are willing to make ordinary sacrifices. We look for a Hawaii where families have a choice if both parents should work, uh we we are are like to see where families have meals together, that grandma is valued, you know, that that's who we really are.

[00:06:58] Marc Alexander: Terry, let me ask, is is part of what you're telling me that there are an awful lot of people who maybe react in a very negative way to the religious right when they hear that term, that that maybe if they, uh, focused on the substance of what what your group anyway has been all about, that maybe they would feel that there's a a common commonality there?

[00:07:20] Randall Roth: I think so, Randy. I think you know, uh we think and I keep, sorry I have a bad cold so I may bark at you a little bit, uh we we want to we wonder what kind of a Hawaii we are leaving for our children, you know, at one time the the the social order on its integrity, hard work, loyalty, faithfulness to family and you know, sexual purity, selfless, uh compassion and morality.

[00:08:14] Marc Alexander: There we go. Also on the line this morning, we have uh Mike Young. And I should explain to people maybe who aren't used to this show, uh I mean no disrespect by saying Mark Alexander rather than Father Mark Alexander and Mike Young rather than Reverend Mike Young. Uh we just made a policy decision years ago that we were on a first name basis here, whether it's a doctor, professor, governor, uh father or what have you. And so, Mike Young is a minister at the First Unitarian Church uh on the Pali Highway. He's been there for only one year. He's from Tampa, Florida. He's been in the ministry for 32 years. He was very much involved in politics in Florida. He's planning to get very involved in politics here. Uh I guess if we had to put a label on uh on Mike's politics, it would be liberal. Uh Mike, are you there?

[00:08:55] Speaker 0:Mike Young: I'm here.

[00:08:56] Marc Alexander: Uh you've been listening to uh a couple people who who at least some listeners would label as as conservative. Uh, any thoughts you have about either what you've been listening to or the the idea of mixing religion and politics.

[00:09:11] Speaker 0:Mike Young: Well, first of all, I've been listening to uh I to uh amen virtually everything that uh is in Mark's article. Uh I as a liberal, chase under what many of my liberal friends uh do when we get into these kinds of name-calling uh pieces. Uh, I I want the religious right or religious conservatives or evangelicals, however the labels get tossed around. I want those people involved in the political process. For far too many years, they saw the political process as something they ought not be involved in and stayed aloof from it. And I do not believe that that contributed to good public policy. The the caveat here, however, is that while on the one hand uh positions and attempts to influence public policy are and cannot help but be informed by people's religious values and it's thoroughly appropriate that their positions be informed by their religious values, once they step into the political process, one thing does change and that is that from whatever religious background one comes, one must accept the same standard of truth when you're beginning to allege what is and what is not so uh as the rest submit to. Uh, the one piece that tends to happen from some elements of both sides of this debate is that we tend to appeal to religious authority as a reason why people ought to agree with us and I hope that that never flies because the appeal to authority in the public debate part uh is not a reason for anybody altering their position on on an issue.

[00:10:57] Marc Alexander: So it's okay to say uh, I believe in this, in part and maybe completely because of the values that are part of my religion, religious tradition, rather than to say, I believe in this because this is God's will.

[00:11:10] Speaker 0:Mike Young: Correct, and it's appropriate to say you ought to believe in this too. Mhm. But the reasons that I want you to give me uh are reasons that have to do with the issues uh in the political process, not the issues that you would give me if I were attending your evangelical or or uh certainly meeting at church.

[00:12:12] Marc Alexander: The only guest I have with me in the studio this morning and I explained earlier in the show that Ann Kobayashi was going to join us, but because of a death in the family, she isn't able to. So I am here with uh Father Mark Alexander, who is a Catholic priest. He was born in Sagami, Japan and raised mostly in Hawaii. His mother is Japanese and his father is Jewish uh which is a an interesting background for a Catholic priest. He received a doctorate in Sacred Theology from the Gregorian University in Rome, Italy. Prior to Rome, he studied in Belgium. Uh, carning the license in is this right? Carning, is that I'm not familiar with the term.

[00:12:51] Marc Alexander: Earning. I thought maybe it was a term of art or something, earning the license in sacred theology and MA in religious studies from the Catholic University of Louvain. He was ordained a priest for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Honolulu in October of 1985. At present he's the executive director of the Hawaii Catholic Conference, the public policy arm of the Roman Catholic Church in the state of Hawaii. In addition he serves on the board of directors for Damien Memorial High School and the Ethics Committee of both the Saint Francis Medical Center, Liliha and Saint Francis Health Care System in Hawaii. Uh Mark, we're talking about religion and politics and I'm curious there are some people who think the two really don't mix at all because religious dogma, for example, by its very nature is uncompromising. Uh, politics on the other hand is sometimes referred to as the art of compromise. Uh, what's your reaction to that?

[00:13:51] Marc Alexander: Well, I think again it slants the issue very, you know, ideologically when people describe, you know, religion in that way. What religion really is about is is a certain view of life and a certain understanding of the meaning of life and of human persons and of human community. And obviously that influences how people think about issues and how they approach public policy. People of religion do not lose their citizenship simply because they have a certain view of the world and a certain certain understanding of how God and humankind interact in that comprehension of the world. Uh what they do though is they evaluate a public policy, they evaluate the public arena from their particular perspective. And in a democracy, they also have the right and an obligation to share their particular spin, perspective, and understanding of the issues and how they impact on human persons and human community with everyone else. They get the toss their hat into the arena and other people who have a different approach, which may be a main line religion, may not involve strictly speaking a traditional religion, they also have a right and an obligation to toss their hat into the arena and then we get to share our particular perspectives, our reasons, and our concerns, and then in a democracy, whoever is the majority gets to, uh if you will, decide what direction we should be moving in.

[00:15:32] Marc Alexander: Not at all. I mean, for example, I of course I can speak uh mostly about the Catholic Church since that is my experience and my knowledge arena. Certainly in the Catholic Church, you know, our approach and our concern about human issues emanates from our concern about human persons as we find in the actions of Jesus Christ. And that certainly motivates our our care and concern for the poor and the marginalized. That's why we have Catholic hospitals and Catholic charities, that's why we have the work of our parishes, which is work that's directed to everyone, not just Catholics, but it comes from a deep-seated religious belief that all human beings are created in God's image and likeness.

[00:16:12] Marc Alexander: Okay. Well we're going to take some calls, and again, if you'd like to get in line, we've got some open lines and questions and brief comments can be directed to Mark or or just uh stated for everyone's edification. Just call us at 955-8821. We go to Daniel from Palolo. Good morning, Daniel. Good morning. Do you have a question or a comment? Um yes, I have a comment actually. Um I did read the Rev Alexander's column in the paper this morning and I have been listening. And I would like to uh just comment that although I do have having worked with um with a number of very principled Catholics in my life that I have the greatest respect for Reverend Alexander's um religious position and for how that informs his take on many issues, that I do find that trying to downplay the existence and the impact of the religious right in politics even in Hawaii today is somewhat disingenuous. Um, certainly name-calling is not at all is not at all valuable and I have seen from liberal quarters since I've worked in liberal politics for a long time, a lot of name-calling and that result in becomes far too easy to do that. I think when you look in the newspaper in Honolulu and you see a group of senators who oppose the constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage being called the Unholy 14, I think that it is very disingenuous to say that people who are taking only a religious approach to how they are taking politics instead of real realizing that we are a secular pluralistic society is disingenuous.

[00:17:39] Marc Alexander: Okay. Um, Daniel, thank you for your comment. Want you hang on just for a moment, we'll get uh Mark's reaction to it. Okay. My point is not that there are not people that are religious conservatives, indeed they do exist and not indeed that there are not religious uh extremists, just that there are extremists on the other side. Certainly those people do exist in our community, but they are a minority. Uh the person who posted that ad for the Unholy 14 did that as a a private citizen. He certainly doesn't represent a majority of the people. It's an ad that that bothers me a great deal as it would, I think anyone who's interested in in public discourse that leads to peaceful solutions. But to suggest that someone like that represents a substantial group of people here in Hawaii, I think that is simply not correct. We we don't have that kind of group here in Hawaii.

[00:19:00] Randall Roth: a certain color just because one extremist does something that bothers even you.

[00:19:05] Speaker 1:Mark: Right, and we've had this problem before when, you know, a particular person takes an extreme position then they get identified with us or or, you know, someone that's normally associated with us, and I think that's very disingenuous. I think that's very unfair. Now, would there be the perception that maybe some of the extremists are more present on the far right than on the far left. Perhaps yes, but I think that is not should not be surprising because the those who are much more progressive and liberal in their agenda get a lot more press time and I think when people are held down and kept from being able to express themselves, there tends to be that kind of reaction, which is unfortunate.

[00:19:41] Randall Roth: Okay, Daniel, what do you think about what you're hearing?

[00:19:44] Speaker 1:Daniel: Daniel, are you still there? Yes, I am. I think the Reverend makes some very good points and I would agree that um that single citizens should not be used to color an entire group of people with a group of opinions, but I also do believe that more so on the mainland definitely um but when Pat Robertson's organizations claim and successfully claim to have large control over major political conventions, um when there are organizations out here in Hawaii that quite frankly I have found condoning what little more amounts to to hate speech, and I don't really enjoy bringing up names, but I believe that uh Mike Gaberd's organizational activities over the past several years have been pretty coming very dangerously close to the equivalent of hate speech in my opinion.

[00:20:28] Speaker 1:Daniel: Um I I think that we have to be careful and I think when it comes to public policy decisions like the same sex marriage issue, like homeschooling, like any, like abortion, like any number of issues that although people need to respect each other's different religious views, we cannot base public policy solely on a religious perspective, there needs to be a civil um legal obligation on the part of all of us to find rational um basis for those for those policies. Um I think I I think just for another example, the state has been having a incredibly difficult time finding a position on same sex marriage that meets a compelling interest because the strongest interest that most people have been able to come up with is because they believe that that is what God wants, man and woman and that is it.

[00:21:18] Randall Roth: Okay, Daniel. Um, I don't want to get off on on same sex marriage because I think the show could turn into to just that especially because of the timing. Uh, thank you for your your thoughts, appreciate them a lot. Uh, Mark, if we can avoid going off on on a tangent, quick reaction to Daniel's second set of comments and then we'll move on.

[00:21:36] Speaker 1:Mark: Well, I would say first of all at the very beginning, he pointed out I think the so-called religious right or the fanatics is much more of a problem on the mainland than it is in Hawaii. And since we're talking about Hawaii, I think we need to deal with Hawaii. Hawaii is a unique state. We have a great history of tolerance and diversity. Over 40% of our marriages here in Hawaii are mixed marriages, over 60% of our people have Asian blood, we're very sensitive here, we're very different than uh than many of the mainland communities. So in in that sense, I think to draw a comparison between what's happening on the mainland and here simply doesn't fit the facts of the situation.

[00:22:14] Speaker 1:Mark: The second comment is this that I would agree that in public discourse our reasons for public policy need to be articulated in a way that people can understand, all people different faiths. But one has to be very careful here, one's faith in religious perspective can also be shared and must also be listened to by other people, and others have an obligation to listen and decide whether those arguments are persuasive or not. But simply because we don't like a style of argumentation, I don't think we should exclude people from the public forum on that basis alone, goes against what the democratic spirit is about. I think finally the Catholic church in particular is very concerned always about articulating positions that do make sense from the viewpoint of reason and I think we do a very good job with that and I think that's one reason why many people do agree with our positions on a variety of issues.

[00:23:10] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go to Lee in Makiki. Good morning, Lee.

[00:23:14] Marc Alexander: Are you there Lee? I'm right here. You're on the air. I'd like to ask uh Father Alexander how he sees the role of his church in civil rights issues.

[00:23:26] Speaker 1:Mark: Thank you, Lee. The Catholic Church has been really very much in the forefront of civil rights issues. Uh we have constantly affirmed and worked for the protection of the civil rights of all human persons in our community. Uh we're very sensitive about civil rights uh because they're based on human rights and a certain understanding of human dignity, and therefore we have spoken out again and again on on this issue. on the protection of people's civil rights.

[00:23:58] Randall Roth: Okay. Um let's see and I guess we lost Lee from Makiki. Lee if if you wanted to respond to that uh you can call back. But you're listening to the price of paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth and if you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment our number is 955-8821 or from a neighbor island 1-800-955-8821. With me in the studio is Father Mark Alexander who's the executive director of the Hawaii Catholic Conference and co-chair of a group called Hawaii's future today and I'm going to ask him a little bit more about that in just a moment. Also by phone and we're going to go to them in a few minutes, we have the Reverend Mike Young, who's been in the ministry for 32 years and uh might be labeled a political liberal, and Terry Bosgra who uh for let's see, 12 years was the spokesperson for the coalition of clergy here in Hawaii. That was a group made up of of members of the clergy from uh uh Christian, Buddhist, uh Jewish, you name it, all sorts of groups were represented and currently he does a daily editorial on on three different radio stations. Again, if you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment our number is 955-8821. Let's go to Bob from Kaneohe. Good morning, Bob.

[00:25:15] Speaker 1:Bob: Good morning gentlemen. Uh I've been kind of lost here a little bit listening to some of the comments and questions and of course it settles on the uh the political or the religious right. Uh everybody particularly the media is trying to convince us that this is a major potent force. Uh if it was, it would seem to me that we would see it reflected in government, both nationally and locally. But we don't seem to see that uh the the critics of the right for the the religious right to to speak seem to be saying you're not saying what I like so don't say anything at all. Uh when the political or the religious right comes out with that statement, the other side gets all whoo-hoo about it and it seems to me that we all have the right to say what we want. Now, if it it politics and and religion do mix in that as as has been the been stated the the beliefs in the the equality of man, the right to exist are a base religious belief, they're also the foundation of our nation. So I I when I say I'm lost, I'm not entirely sure why everybody is getting upset that we may want to to bring religion not as a controlling factor, but as an informational factor into public discussions and if it gets reflected in in in public policy, that's the will of the majority.

[00:27:08] Randall Roth: Okay, well we'll take that as a a comment um and we appreciate your input.

[00:27:12] Speaker 1:Bob: No, I would I would certainly like to hear any reaction on that kind of broader scope of drawing people.

[00:27:20] Randall Roth: I'll get a quick reaction from from Mark and again, thank you for your comment.

[00:30:30] Speaker 1:Mark: Certainly, one of the points that I have been making and I think is extremely important is that everyone has the opportunity to raise their voice and to share their concerns and their perspectives and we each have a responsibility to listen to one another, to try to understand what one another is saying, and together to work out some kind of peaceful solution to the problems that we face.

[00:30:50] Randall Roth: Okay. We've got a couple more people who have been waiting patiently and I'm going to take their calls and then we'll go back to Mike Young and Terry Bosgra to get their thoughts. First, Jim in Kaneohe. Good morning, Jim.

[00:31:00] Speaker 1:Jim: Jim, are you there? Hello. Good morning. Yes. Um you know, last year, the world increased by a number of 100 million people. And uh what does that mean? If you take it into perspective, a 100 million people in one year means in four years we'll have a net increase in the world's population greater than the entire number of people who live in North America, United States, Canada, and Mexico combined in four years. That means in 13 years we'll have a net increase in the world of a population greater than all the people who live in China, in 13 short years. And where are they all going to go?

[00:32:36] Randall Roth: And what's your bottom line here?

[00:32:37] Speaker 1:Jim: My bottom line is I'm very upset by this right to life movement, which is seems to me is so irresponsible and the Catholic Church position on birth control, etcetera. It's absolutely insane. To me the right to life is the right to certain suffering and horrible death in the future.

[00:33:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Jim, we're we're going to have to move on. I I really do appreciate your call but I think we could we could make a show out of out of the issue you're raising but your your comment is helpful. We appreciate it very much. Well, let's go to Dave on Oahu. Good morning, Dave.

[00:34:25] Speaker 1:Dave: Uh good morning. Um had a question for uh Mike Young.

[00:34:29] Randall Roth: Okay. We're going to be going to Mike and and Terry in a moment so it's a great time to ask it.

[00:34:33] Speaker 1:Dave: Okay, thanks. Um Mike, if I understood what you said before, um you were saying that the kinds of reasons that religious people should use in the public square are rational reasons um or something of that that sort, and and yet it seems to me like part of the conflict that's going on today is that people have different understandings about what that means. Um so what I wanted to ask you was who who decides what counts as a rational reason for uh public conversation and who decides whose reasons aren't rational?

[00:35:10] Randall Roth: Okay, and you're asking especially Mike Young?

[00:35:12] Speaker 1:Dave: Uh yeah, although, you know, I welcome comments from the other two.

[00:35:15] Randall Roth: Okay because I'm sitting here, I mean it's a great question and and we could talk about democracy and all sorts of wonderful things but let's go to Mike Young who is a a person who's been in the ministry for 32 years but has been the minister at the first unitarian church on the Pali highway for just the last year. Uh he's been in very much involved in politics his whole life and intends to to get more and more involved in politics here in Hawaii as he as he gets a better feel for just what's going on. Mike, are you there?

[00:36:13] Speaker 1:Mike Young: I'm here.

[00:36:14] Randall Roth: You've been listening to a lot. I'll bet you've got some reactions.

[00:36:18] Speaker 1:Mike Young: Yeah. Let me let me take the first one. I uh I the uh the notion of having somebody decide what is and isn't rational, uh would threaten me as deeply as having somebody decide what is and isn't the correct religion for me to have on my behalf. I don't want anybody out there deciding who is rational, but I think what needs to be said and kept being said in the public process is that uh do not expect me to change my mind because you make an appeal to religious authority. Uh in the first place, it isn't going to happen. It does not contribute effectively to the public policy debate. All it does is further draw divisions between us. And one of the one of the things here that's happening in response to an earlier comment is that uh there's a a strange notion that I the media is partly responsible for in that uh uh when they go out looking for opinions, they try to get both sides of something, and too often that means that if it's controversial, if it contains conflict then it's news and I more than once had a reporter call me up wanting me to be the opposite extreme to some other person that they have interviewed and and they have set up this uh extreme situation where there is an opinion way off on one end and another opinion way off on another end as if somehow that was the way the public uh debate ought to be carried out and we've gotten sucked into that drama version of how you do public policy and and it's it's extremely uh disruptive in fact of the policies uh of the policy debates.

[00:38:00] Caller: But I think it's a very important question. What arguments do we consider acceptable in the public arena? And if we decide that certain arguments are not, what is the criteria for making that decision? And I think that's at least one of the points of that call earlier caller's remarks is what is the criteria? And who's deciding what that criteria is? Because as we well know from different commentators, religious arguments, which can be rational, by the way, the two are not mutually exclusive, religious arguments have increasingly become marginalized from public discussion. And I think that is very unfortunate and betrays a real ideological slant on the part of people that's uncritically dealt with.

[00:38:44] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: So earlier, when I made reference to democracy that people ultimately decide by casting their votes one way or the other, you would suggest, I think, perhaps along with Mike, that they can't do that very well if there's a media in between that's not doing a particularly good job.

[00:38:59] Randall Roth: I I must confess I found you because I was looking for a liberal.

[00:38:59] Caller: Right, not just not just the media, but the way public discourse takes place, even in the courtroom, I think even in the legislature.

[00:39:05] Speaker 1:Mike Young: Go ahead, I interrupted you. I'm sorry. Well, one of the things that that has happened, it seems to me uh here in some of the pieces that have that I've been uh listening to and reading as I've tried to inform myself about the political uh situation here in Hawaii is that that because of this notion that somehow the only way you're going to be heard is to take an extreme position on something, it drives our thinking process into that conflict-oriented uh way of of of dealing with issues. Uh one of I'll go ahead. one of the pieces that that is happening across the country on on a this right to life thing is that that uh uh a couple of years ago I was on a radio show much like this one and commented that it was about time that those who were in favor of choice but who were not at all happy about the number of abortions occurring and those that were in favor of of the right to life and equally were unhappy with the number of abortions occurring ought to get together and go to work on on what it takes to put fewer and fewer women in the position of ever having to make that choice. Now, that's where the public policy issue has some opportunity to move forward. The the your right and I'm wrong part of it uh is never going to produce a public policy that people can live with.

[00:39:08] Caller: There are certain arguments that for some reason are immediately excluded and one is never told what is the criteria and who developed that criteria for what should be included and what should not be. What our point is is look, allow people to share their perspective. I tend to proceed very much from a quote-unquote non-religious perspective, okay, looking at human nature in our human community, objectifying, using social science data. Someone else prefers to proceed from a more specifically religious perspective. I need to listen to them.

[00:39:40] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: So you feel like like your your voice is being marginalized unfairly that folks are are doing so in part by saying you're trying to take over and you're saying, I just want to be hard heard, I want to be a part of this public conversation.

[00:39:54] Caller: Exactly, and what's unfortunate in a number of issues is the general public is being excluded from the discussion. And I think a great example of that, we're seeing an uproar about that, is with the same-sex marriage issue. Over 70% of the very tolerant and diverse community in Hawaii don't want it, but public discussion doesn't allow that voice to be heard.

[00:40:15] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's listen to Terry Bosgra again for those of you tuned in late. Terry from 1969 to 1981 was the spokesman for a group called the Coalition of Clergy. Terry, are you there?

[00:40:27] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: I am here.

[00:40:27] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Of our three voices, you're probably the most conservative, Terry?

[00:40:32] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: Likely the most Well, I'm pretty close to Mark. I might say what he says.

[00:40:37] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Terry, everybody says they're in the middle. Everybody wants to be, I'm kidding you.

[00:40:41] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: No, I'm not in the middle. I am the I am conservative. I am absolutely to the right.

[00:40:45] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: You've listened to a lot of callers, and you've listened to Mark and Mike, comment on what they've been hearing. What would you like to share with us at this point in the radio show?

[00:40:53] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: Well, the question that has dominated throughout the debate the last two minutes, what is what should be the standards? You know, at one time, we all had common standards, but I think we've drifted off. Faithfulness in family, respect for authority, sexual purity, selfless compassion. These these are our those that are conservative, these are our absolutes. These are our virtues. And now we have shifted to a value system, a personal set of preferences, which differ for everyone.

[00:41:28] Randall Roth: Okay, Mike. I I want to keep moving. I I'm going to come back to you later on in the hour if you can can stay with us just so so I sure got it right. Part of what you were saying was that maybe for different reasons you're just as critical of the media as as was Mark earlier in his remarks.

[00:41:32] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: Virtue relates to behavior that is morally best, that which conforms to a common moral authority.

[00:41:36] Speaker 1:Mike Young: Oh, my gracious, yes.

[00:41:42] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: We link the rise in violence, crime, disease, breakdown of family, and the increase in despair to the shift from virtues to values.

[00:41:45] Randall Roth: Okay. Mike, stay on the line if you possibly can. Quick reaction from Mark and then we'll go to Terry.

[00:41:49] Speaker 1:Mark: I'd like to return to uh I think it was uh Dave who made the remark or asked the question about what is rational and what is not a rational argument and and Mike seemed to be very bothered by that.

[00:41:54] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: The basic moral code at one time was the moral code of Moses, as the standard by which we measured. Now we have none. Each has his own.

[00:42:07] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: When when Dave says, who decides which is the rational voice and which isn't the rational voice, do I hear you saying that that the what's moral and isn't moral is pretty much determined by looking at at what the majority of folks or what a large number of folks out there believe in?

[00:42:24] Speaker 2:Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is why we are on such an absolute collision course, because we have shifted to a concept, we have no values. Or we we everyone has their own set of standards now. And and that I can never see us For for instance, and I don't want to get drifting off either on same-sex marriage, but that is a direct threat to the religious freedom. adherence to the US Constitution supersede adherence to the principles of your religion. So the the in in essence, the the court, freedom of religion, the court can curtail that at any one time it desires, and that's why we who are on considered on the right, see a direct threat right now to our religious freedom.

[00:43:32] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay, Terry, hang on. We'll come back to you late in the show to get any concluding thoughts. I'm going to get a quick reaction from Mark and then we've got some people who've been waiting patiently. Thanks a lot.

[00:43:42] Caller: I think, uh, while Terry and and myself, we might agree on some of the issues that are a concern to our community, our approach to solving these issues can be very, very different, especially in the case of issues like welfare reform, housing. Our approach is very, very different. And I think that makes us quite different, uh, in terms of where we fit on the spectrum. The other thing, too, is that I think we have to be very, very careful when approaching really complex issues to look at all of the different aspects of that issue. And we can't do that unless we listen very carefully to, uh, the voices of other people. I think our approach has always been that we study an issue carefully, that we look at what others have to offer, and that together, with some calm reflection, we make a decision that is in favor of human persons and the human community, the common good.

[00:44:36] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay, um, let's see, Dave from Oahu, are you still there?

[00:44:40] Speaker 2:Speaker 4: Still here.

[00:44:41] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay, I guess you started all of this. We'll give you an opportunity to very quickly respond to what you've been hearing and then I need to move on.

[00:44:47] Speaker 2:Speaker 4: Okay. Well, I appreciate that. Um and this I hope this is related enough. Um, as I've been listening to all three of them, I've been thinking, um, obviously the main thing that happens with religion in this community is not not in the political arena, uh, but in the social arena. And I was wondering if if each of the three of them could just describe the things that they do in the state of Hawaii for the people, apart from whatever they do on questions of public policy.

[00:45:13] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: I'll tell you what, later in the show, as we get down to the last few minutes, I'm going to give them each an opportunity to kind of add some concluding remarks, and maybe one of the things they can do is is respond to that particular question. Okay. Thank you, Dave. We go to Andrew in Makiki. Good morning, Andrew. Andrew, are you there?

[00:45:31] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: Here.

[00:45:31] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Ah, thank you for waiting so patiently. What do you have for us today?

[00:45:34] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: I I don't know what I have. I I mean, I'm listening to you guys, as I always do. And um I agree with the one guy on the phone there that says that uh, you know, we gotta bring the the discussion a little bit step higher. Okay? And then the uh, Give me give me an example of what you mean by by raising it a step? Well, because like the first comment that the Padre made about the uh, media cutting out the last three paragraphs of his article. That's just typical. You know, the the advertiser. You know, they're calling names. They draw they they Let's put it this way, the advertiser is a good prince.

[00:46:13] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: You know, they keep us floundering in our you know, our arguments, but they don't take the the conversation a step forward.

[00:46:19] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: So your your primary message is that you think the media is doing a lousy job.

[00:46:26] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: Yes. You know it, I know it, we all know it, so don't buy the paper. Just don't go out there and buy it. It's I keep saying that, Randy, so don't do it. Okay.

[00:46:35] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Thank you, Andrew. Great, great subject. We appreciate your call. Let's go to uh Carolyn from Makakilo. Good morning, Carolyn.

[00:46:42] Marc Alexander: Good morning. I want to thank you for giving um Mr. Alexander so much time on the radio. I notice that he gets his share in both of the newspapers and on TV as well. But I would say that uh today, maybe the religious right should just go ahead and pay a radio station for this entire time, since uh we have such a a a one-sided uh discussion going on. But my main comment is to Mr. Alexander, if he is such a moderate and such a middle-of-the-road type person and wanting to stand up for for social justice, why did he spend so much of his time and energy and the Catholic Church's money to fight the same uh, domestic uh partnership?

[00:47:30] Marc Alexander: That would have been if uh we were looking for uh exercise of freedom for our all of our citizens, that would have been one way to keep it away from the church. And and as he has some of his followers keep saying, shoving it down their throats, then at least let some the this minority of people have a little bit of of uh freedoms that are guaranteed by the Constitution.

[00:47:57] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Carolyn, Carolyn, stay on the line. I'm going to come back to you, but just so all of our listeners understand, uh Mark Alexander, in addition to being a Catholic priest and executive director of the Hawaii Catholic Conference, is co-chair of a group called Hawaii's Future Today. Uh some people, I suspect, Mark, would refer to your group as as an example of the religious right here in Hawaii. One of the issues you've chosen to really focus on is same-sex marriage, and you've come out very strongly against that. And that's the one of the issues that that Carolyn and others is is raising. Uh give me a reaction to what you're hearing from Carolyn and then I'm going to give her an opportunity to respond.

[00:48:36] Caller: Sure. First of all, uh, I participate in Hawaii's Future today as a private citizen. Hawaii's Future Today is a non-religious group. It's not a a a political action group of any kind. It's simply a grassroots educational coalition. Uh, so, and our focus has not just been on same-sex marriage, though that tends to get more of the media attention. It's also been on fighting legalized gambling here in Hawaii, casino gambling, and also the legalization of prostitution. Our concern is the future of Hawaii. Arguments have been, uh, non-religious arguments. That's what we've been using because it is a non-religious coalition.

[00:49:10] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: So so that I sure understand. Earlier in the show, somebody said your basic argument has been God doesn't want same-sex marriage, and you would disagree with that characterization.

[00:49:19] Caller: Completely, if and in fact, that's one of the really bizarre things that one finds is the arguments both on Hawaii's futures uh today's part and the Catholic Church have never invoked biblical or religious categories. It's simply been on what is good for our human community, what is good for the common good, and and our arguments have always moved from that direction. And and that's one of the bizarre things that we keep hearing is that we use religious arguments when in fact, we do not do that.

[00:49:45] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Let me get a reaction to that from Carolyn from Makakilo. Carolyn, are you still there?

[00:49:48] Marc Alexander: Oh, I sure am. And I would ask, I would challenge Mr. Alexander to stop wearing his collar every time he appears in print and also on the TV. And when he's down there at the uh legislature, if he is indeed appearing as only a private citizen, because uh the minute he puts that collar on, there is authority and dignity and status, status that the uh religious right churches love to use. And so, you know, he needs to see how the people see him. And he knows that very well when he puts that collar on, that for many Roman Catholics, he is God. And he has to remember that because you can't go around wearing the collar and then denying its value.

[00:50:37] Marc Alexander: Also the fact that if Mr. Alexander is so much for uh the mainstream, what about the minorities? And our gay community are definitely an oppressed minority. When we continue to say that it's freedom for all, we cannot forget our minorities.

[00:50:56] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay. Carolyn, thank thank you for your your call, your comments. I'm going to give Mark an opportunity to respond quickly to that and then I've got some people who've been waiting and we need to wrap this up, but thank you very much, Carolyn.

[00:51:06] Caller: First of all, you know, Carolyn give me far more credibility and authority than I enjoy. I do not as a priest lose my citizenship, and uh and so what I wear is what I wear, my arguments are what should be assessed. That would be one thing. I think the second thing is that from the very beginning, the Catholic Church's agenda, and most of my time as a, you know, someone who works in public policy for the church, has been dedicated to issues such as domestic violence, housing, affordable housing for our people. These have been the issues that I've devoted the most intellectual time on. Unfortunately, those issues are not as sexy as same-sex marriage and do not garner the media attention uh that they ought to.

[00:51:46] Caller: I've spoken many times and testified on domestic violence and affordable housing, some of our best work has been done in the area of affordable rental housing.

[00:51:54] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: I I guess that's the media again, right? We don't talk about dogs biting people, but people biting dogs, that's news.

[00:52:00] Caller: Right, you know, so yeah, and and I can understand that and uh we certainly are going to work harder at trying to persuade the media to look at other issues that we deal with.

[00:52:09] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay. Well, we have Jack and it says uh in Inaha in his car. Well, when he called, he might have been in Inaha by now, he's probably in the Uh oh. He's probably on the other side of the island. Jack, can you hear us? Uh, I've got a feeling we lost Jack. Uh, Jim, can do you have him on the line? Well, Jack, if you can hear me, you're going to have to call back and I apologize for second taking so long to get to you. Uh folks, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about religion and politics this morning. If you tuned in late and would like to hear the show in its entirety, you can do so tonight beginning at 8:00 on KIFO, that's 1380 on your AM dial.

[00:52:51] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: With me in the studio is Father Mark Alexander, who's the executive director of the Hawaii Catholic Conference and co-chair of Hawaii's Future Today. Uh I've been calling it a political action group and I apologize. Uh I now know it's a a grassroots educational organization. Also by phone, and we're going to go to them in just a moment, we've had Reverend Mike Young, who's been in the ministry for 32 years. He's a uh I I have in my notes, a self-described liberal. I described him as a liberal, and uh he's been the minister of the First Unitarian Church for just the last year. And then also Terry Bosgra, who from 1969 to 1981 was a spokesman for the Coalition of Clergy here in in Hawaii.

[00:53:35] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Uh I tried to uh or or Anne Kobashi was going to be with us this morning, but because of a death in the family she couldn't join us. I tried to get a number of of other folks in here and for a variety of reasons uh it it didn't work out. Um one of the questions I have is whether there is a religious right in in Hawaii. The Christian Coalition, for example, which is oftentimes described as the perfect example of the religious right on the mainland, uh I couldn't find anybody who knew the name of the local head and they're not in the phone book. And the harder I tried to find them, the more humorous I thought it was that uh uh this potent force can't even be located.

[00:54:14] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: But at any rate, we're down to the last few minutes, and I'm going to give Mark and Mike and Terry each an opportunity to uh add what needs to be added or emphasize what needs to be emphasized, or answer the question that Dave asked earlier that that didn't get answered. Let's start with Mark Alexander.

[00:54:30] Caller: Well, I think what you say about the uh so-called religious right and the Christian coalition not being able to find them. I think the media has really created here locally in Hawaii a real boogeyman that simply does not exist and I think that boogeyman needs to be unmasked. What we have in Hawaii is very tolerant, a very reasoned community that can deal with complicated issues. And what we have frequently happening is that the media puts its particular slant on an issue, as do other voices in the community, which tries to out-shout the voice of the people. And it said we need to involve more of the people, all of the people, especially the silent majority, so that we can have a good assessment of public decision making.

[00:55:12] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay. Mark, if I have a few more minutes, I'll come back to you, but we want to for sure give a couple more minutes to uh first Mike Young on the phone. Mike, online six, are you there?

[00:55:21] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: Yes.

[00:55:22] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: All right. Go for it.

[00:55:24] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: Well, I don't know whether there is a a religious right in Hawaii or not yet. I haven't been here long enough, but I was terribly pleased when Randall Terry tried uh to come in and run his number uh this last year. And as near as I could tell, the overwhelming majority of religious conservatives uh gently told him, please go away, don't bother us. Uh I was impressed with them for doing that.

[00:55:50] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: And and he, just so people know, he's viewed by many including uh Mark Alexander's group, as as being an extremist.

[00:55:57] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: Uh one of the less temperate voices in the debate.

[00:56:01] Speaker 2:Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Go ahead.

[00:56:03] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: Well, I one of the callers earlier and I didn't I didn't catch his name and I apologize for that was was uh indicating that uh that it was his belief that somehow all of our problems today are we seem to be going to heck in a handbasket because we have lost our values. And I want to suggest that I that what seems to me to be happening here is that we are confusing causes with effect. Uh there are major stresses because of economic, social, technological changes going on in our society and one of those one of the consequences of all of those stresses are to stress the very social institutions that are the foundation of our society.

[00:56:39] Speaker 2:Speaker 5: They stress the family especially, and so indeed, we see an awful lot of the popularization at least of rather bizarre behavior. The overwhelming majority, however, of people who uh identify themselves as socially and religiously liberal uh happen also to be very moral folk.

[00:57:00] Speaker 3:Speaker 1: But they're quite prepared to extend the same freedom that they cherish for themselves to others. And what deserves I think to be given the label extremist are those folk who are simply not willing to extend the same freedom to their fellow citizens that they want for themselves, but rather want to press their particular religious, social, political prejudices on everybody. And and that's not the way healthy public policy gets developed.

[00:57:31] Randall Roth: Mike, thank you very much. I'm running low on time. I want to give Terry 30 seconds and Mark has 20 seconds. Quickly. Terry Bosgra on line four. Good morning again, Terry.

[00:57:40] Speaker 3:Terry: Uh, in answer to the yes, the Christian Coalition is here. Women Concerned for America is here. Right to Life is here. Webut's here. Christian Voice is here. Debbie Hartman's group is here. There are many more, they're all over the place. Uh, the fact [unintelligible — audio glitch] the groups like that are so inflexible is one can no more expend the definition of a moral principle than one can continually expend a yardstick and and and still have it as a as a reliable measure. Uh, to answer to man the question, what do we do ourselves, in the in the social problems? I myself have been for over 20 years involving youth for Christ, uh, and see how we can bring young kids from the hopelessness of dead end from crime, drugs, gangs into productive citizens into the society.

[00:58:26] Randall Roth: Terry, with that, I've got to thank you.

[00:58:29] Speaker 3:Terry: Thank you, Randy.

[00:58:30] Randall Roth: Thank you, Terry. Mark, you've got 10 seconds.

[00:58:32] Marc Alexander: Okay. The key issue is what is good for our human community here? What is the common good? And to determine that, we need all of us listening and discussing it and no one's voice should be silenced.

[00:58:43] Randall Roth: And let's underline listen, okay? Uh, thank you all. This is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Our producer is Susie Roth, our technician is Jim Hazuga, and uh, let's see, we've got three seconds to say thank you very much for listening.

[00:58:56] Speaker 3:Terry: Thank you very much, Randy.

[00:58:36] Randall Roth: What is the common good and to determine that, we need all of us listening and discussing it and no one's voice should be silenced.

[00:58:43] Marc Alexander: And let's underline, listen, okay?

[00:58:45] Randall Roth: Uh thank you all, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show, our producer is Susie Roth, our technician is Jim Hazuga, and let's see, we've got three seconds to say thank you very much for listening.

[00:58:56] Marc Alexander: Thank you very much, Randy.

[00:58:57] Randall Roth: Okay.