Congressional Candidates: Neil Abercrombie and Orson Swindle
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-09-22
Guests: Neil Abercrombie (U.S. Representative; 1996 Democratic candidate); Orson Swindle (1996 Republican candidate for Congress)
Duration: 1:05:05

[00:00:02] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR and KKUA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO. Our sponsor, the Hawaii Community Foundation, is an organization that encourages grassroots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Our focus today is on two individuals, Neil Abercrombie and Orson Swindle. Neil is considered by many to be the quintessential liberal, just as Orson is thought of by many as the quintessential conservative. They're currently running against each other for Congress, just as they did two years ago when Neil won, but in a closer race than than had originally been predicted. As soon as I've introduced each of them and briefly laid out a few ground rules and expectations, they'll engage in a debate that hopefully will help all of us better understand their respective values and ideas.

[00:00:57] Randall Roth: Neil Abercrombie was born in Buffalo, New York on June 26, 1938, which makes him 58 years young. He earned his undergraduate degree at Union College and a master's degree from the University of Hawaii. Both of these were in sociology. He also earned a PhD from the UH. This degree was in American studies. He's been a waiter, custodian, and probation officer as well as a graduate teaching assistant at UH, a lecturer at Leeward Community College and a visiting assistant professor at Hawaii Loa College. From 1974 to 1986, Neil served in the Hawaii State Legislature, first as a representative and then as a senator. In 1986, he was elected to the US House of Representatives in a special election. From 1988 to 1990, he served as a city councilman here in Honolulu, and in 1990, he again was elected to Congress and has served in that capacity since then. Over the years, Neil has won numerous awards and has been involved with many local charitable organizations.

[00:01:56] Randall Roth: Orson Swindle was born in Thomasville, Georgia on March 8th, 1937, which makes him 59 years young. He earned a bachelor's degree in industrial management at Georgia Tech and a master's of business administration from Florida State University. On November 11th, 1966, while serving as a marine aviator in Vietnam, Orson was shot down and spent the next six years as a prisoner of war. In 1979, he retired as Lieutenant Colonel with 20 military decorations, including two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Hearts. From 1981 to 1989, Orson served in the Reagan administration, first as a state director of the Farmer Home Administration in Georgia and then in Washington DC as assistant secretary of commerce for economic development. In 1992, he was principal spokesperson for Ross Perot's presidential campaign, and in 1993, he worked with Jack Kemp, Finn Webber, William Bennett, and Jean Kirkpatrick to form Empower America.

[00:02:53] Randall Roth: Orson and Neil understand that our listeners didn't tune in to hear campaign speeches. Instead, we hope to get crisp statements of their positions on the issues and true engagement with each other. For example, they've been encouraged to ask tough questions of each other. The ground rules are simple. I'll periodically ask one of them to raise an important issue. That one will then have up to two minutes to tell us what's right about his own position or wrong with his opponent's or both. Hopefully, it won't always take the full two minutes to do this. Whether or not it does, when that candidate has finished, his opponent will have up to two minutes to respond. After that initial exchange, the floor will be open for an unstructured give and take where simple rules of courtesy will prevail. For example, it's okay to interrupt occasionally, especially if the other is lapsing into a mini speech or dodging a specific question, but it's not okay to interrupt so often or indiscriminately as to be rude.

[00:03:47] Randall Roth: We want lively exchanges, but not ones that deny either candidate a fair chance to weigh in. Finally, I won't hesitate to break in if I think it's necessary to keep the debate on track. Well, with that rather long-winded introduction, I declare this debate officially started and based upon the flip of a coin, which we didn't do, we were having such a good time getting to know one another before the show that we didn't flip the coin.

[00:04:10] Orson Swindle: Alphabetically.

[00:04:11] Randall Roth: Alphabetically. Okay.

[00:04:13] Orson Swindle: I've suffered that all my life.

[00:04:15] Randall Roth: Oh, boy. Well, Neil, let's start alphabetically and then maybe Orson that I mean, you'll have the last word in terms of the issue that gets raised. Neil, you're the one that gets to toss down the first gauntlet. Remember, though, two minutes is a maximum, not a goal. Go for it.

[00:04:29] Neil Abercrombie: Well, perhaps the easiest way for our our listeners because of the connection with the focus section of the paper, is for us uh if it's agreeable, just to go to the statements that are in the paper this morning, which gives us the opportunity to uh express our points of view and to do some comparison. I cite some of the issues that are particular to our state that we need to be for, like Brown tree snake control, native Hawaiian programs, uh Hansen's Disease, treatment at Kalaupapa, all of which have been characterized as waste by the Mainland Republicans. It seems sometimes to me that in the uh recitation of uh groups on the mainland that are cited by Mr. Swindle, he seems unaware, they certainly seem unaware of the uniqueness of Hawaii.

[00:06:17] Randall Roth: You know what, Neil? It's almost two minutes, and and if you don't mind, what I'm hearing you say is that Hawaii is a special place. You have an appreciation for what's unique about Hawaii and you're suggesting that Orson doesn't?

[00:06:29] Orson Swindle: I'm suggesting that the people to which uh Mr. Swindle refers all the time in justification of his position are constantly people and groups on the mainland that have no appreciation for what's going on in Hawaii.

[00:06:40] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Orson, I think Neil's done a good job of very clearly uh saying what he thinks is a major difference. You've got about two minutes maximum. Again, that's a maximum, not a goal. About two minutes to say something and then we're going to open this thing up.

[00:06:53] Orson Swindle: Okay. I uh I appreciate the opportunity to be with you Randy and I thank the folks who are listening today, getting up on early on Sunday morning, listening to the radio is always a challenge for people and you got a great program here and it's pleasure to be back with you. I think this race is really uh not about Democrats or Republicans. It's about what we want for Hawaii tomorrow and the future and I think we have some things to be gravely concerned about. I'd like to see tax cuts uh for our families, our working families. Uh I don't think there's anybody in Hawaii who thinks we're undertaxed and of course, Mr. Abercrombie is opposed cutting taxes in fact, voted for the largest tax increase in history.

[00:07:27] Orson Swindle: Uh, I also believe that we need to be balancing our uh uh balancing the federal budget because if we don't balance the federal budget, we're literally mortgaging the future of our children and that's negligence on our part. [unintelligible — audio glitch] literally something we morally cannot do and I think we have to do that so that our kids have a decent chance at the American dream.

[00:08:25] Randall Roth: You know, Orson, we we got a maximum of 30 seconds to go. And and I I haven't heard you say specifically anything about the the issue that that Neil's raised, which is that Hawaii is a special place.

[00:08:36] Orson Swindle: Oh, I I'm not taking exception that. I totally agree with Mr. Abercrombie. This is a extraordinarily unique place.

[00:09:06] Randall Roth: All right, the end of the two minutes each and now it's wide open, Neil. Go for it.

[00:09:10] Neil Abercrombie: Well, there we go. Uh right from the get go. I you asked me to be specific. Yes. I said brown tree snake control.

[00:09:22] Orson Swindle: You didn't you didn't do it during your time so don't try and do it on my time.

[00:09:27] Neil Abercrombie: Let me talk about issues.

[00:09:32] Orson Swindle: Or the brown tree snake is not an issue.

[00:09:36] Neil Abercrombie: Apparently Senator McCain didn't think it was an issue. He made fun of us out here in Hawaii, we were at your fundraiser talking about an example of government waste. I have the text of the of the so-called citizens against government waste in which they cite the brown tree snake control as being one of the You can talk

[00:09:54] Randall Roth: You just have to wait, won't you?

[00:10:14] Neil Abercrombie: Look, if you want to do this debate, let's do the debate. Let's stick with the issues. Don't run away from the things that you cite and the people that you cite.

[00:10:26] Orson Swindle: When I was assistant secretary of commerce in like about 1986, I believe it was, when I was first introduced to the brown tree snake, I became aware of it being petrified of snakes. I didn't like what I saw, but uh I have traveled to Guam many times. I am extremely familiar with the brown tree snake and all the studies that have been done on it and I'm also aware that we spent a ton of money on the brown tree snake and I I always have asked the question, how many brown tree snakes have we killed? It's a hell of a problem to put it bluntly.

[00:11:07] Neil Abercrombie: Please cite the millions in grants.

[00:11:11] Orson Swindle: There have been millions of grant, millions of dollars in grants cited for the brown tree, brown tree snake eradication.

[00:11:17] Neil Abercrombie: And and it's cited right here in what's called the pig book. The pig book summary of the citizen against. Oh, excuse me. This is what you're using. Uh uh it's right here. It's right here in your statement, it's right here in the advertisements that you're using. The citizens against government waste, where Senator Annoi is is is equated by the people who wrote it with a swine.

[00:12:05] Orson Swindle: If you will quit pointing your finger at me, I'd be more than happy to let you talk. I'm not pointing any fingers. You are. You absolutely were.

[00:12:11] Neil Abercrombie: If there's any fingers being pointed, it's the fingers you're pointing at yourself. It's interesting that you publish ads in the newspapers, you go on television, you cite a group, and now when I bring the actual facts behind this group to people, you start running away.

[00:12:33] Orson Swindle: I have not even mentioned Senator Annoi. You know that as well as I do. Of course, you mentioned this in against government. Why are you citing Are you disassociating yourself, are you disassociating yourself from the people that you cite in your ad?

[00:12:48] Neil Abercrombie: No, I'm not. Then you agree then that Senator Annoi should be in the pig book summary.

[00:12:54] Orson Swindle: There are lots of, they, that is merely a category, I mean, a classification or a term they use for people who engage in pork barrel spending and it includes many people in Congress. But most. And what they cite in their publication, among other things, is the Brown tree snake control project. Is that waste or is it not? Yes, it probably has been wasteful but it has not been effective, Mr. Abercrombie. It hasn't been effective. We still have the problem, right? We need to eradicate the snake.

[00:13:09] Neil Abercrombie: We need to eradicate the snake from coming into Hawaii. The funds for it are, where are the, where are the snakes? What are the truck brown tree snake control project used for?

[00:13:30] Orson Swindle: Part of it is to keep brown tree snakes from coming here. Let's get let's get on to the economy for crying out loud, Mr. Abercrombie. Okay, we'll go on to something else now that you've admitted that the people that you cite have nothing to do with Hawaii, other than to insult Senator Inouye and to insult our program and our uniqueness here. I'm a very strong supporter of that of that program.

[00:13:52] Neil Abercrombie: And the reason that we we do it is is because they come in in military planes that fly from Guam, and because it comes [unintelligible — audio glitch] wheels of planes that come from Ground Guam to Hawaii, and if we don't cite them down here in Hawaii, they are going to establish themselves in Hawaii and have the same effect they did in Guam.

[00:14:09] Randall Roth: Orson, it's your turn to bring up an issue. You've got up to two minutes again. It's a maximum, not a goal. Two minutes to tell us what you think is a very important issue in this campaign. Either tell us why your position's right, Neil's is wrong, or something about both and then Neil will have the floor.

[00:14:30] Orson Swindle: Well, I would like to bring up the subject of taxes. Uh, Mr. Abercrombie, uh, has voted consistently to raise taxes, uh, and more importantly, he's voted consistently against cutting taxes in this, this recent Congress, and throughout his career in Congress. The people of this state are probably one of the most overtaxed people in the in the country, and I think everybody in in in in the in the state recognizes this. No one here considers themselves undertaxed. Uh, I one estimate that I've read is that, you know, when you combine federal taxes, state taxes, and and the regulatory requirements, which are in effect a fee or a tax on people, that we may be paying as much as 50% of our incomes on the average family to taxes.

[00:15:09] Orson Swindle: And, uh, if we don't do something about controlling the federal budget and getting spending under control, it's very likely that a child born today in its lifetime will be paying an excess of 80% in taxes. I want to know how Mr. Abercrombie uh who who claims to be for the working people and the people of Hawaii, how does he consider his position on taxes of trying to avoid cutting taxes or reducing taxes and his position on raising taxes helps the people of Hawaii?

[00:15:36] Randall Roth: Okay. There you have it. Orson says taxes are too high and Neil, I think he's suggesting you're a tax and spend person. What do you have to say?

[00:15:43] Neil Abercrombie: Well, of course, the the tax and spend issue is is very, very interesting. The Congress when it was uh controlled by the Democrats as it will be again in November, uh always turned in a budget that was less than that proposed by uh presidents Reagan and and Bush.

[00:16:03] Orson Swindle: That is absolutely not true.

[00:16:06] Neil Abercrombie: He's got the floor. He's got the floor. You'll have a chance. You know, it's interesting. You know, you make these these grandiose charges and then when the the facts come in, uh naturally, of course, Mr. Swindle wants to interrupt me on my time because he's been caught once again and in these what my journalism teacher used to tell me was glittering generalities. Let's go back work backwards in this. Claims to be for the working people. I it's not any claims that I make. It's the claims that that working people make on my behalf. I'm very proud of the endorsements that I've received uh from various labor unions. Uh I think that it represents over a long period of time a commitment on my part uh to working people, uh people who are looking for an opportunity, uh people who want to have some measure of justice.

[00:16:56] Neil Abercrombie: As for uh the largest tax increase in history, uh Mr. Swindle knows perfectly well that the largest tax increase in history was maneuvered through the Congress by none other than Senator Bob Dole in uh in the 1980s. He was the father of the author of the largest tax increase in history, whereas what Mr. Swindle is referring to, uh rather than being the largest tax increase in history, was the largest deficit reduction budget in history. The rate of the deficit and the absolute numbers of the deficit have been cut by more than half since uh President Clinton's budget was uh uh put together and implemented. Uh I remember very clearly Republicans talking about how it wouldn't work, how I uh they'd become Democrats if it worked. I'm still waiting for that to happen.

[00:17:45] Neil Abercrombie: So uh it's very clear that aside from the rhetoric and unless Mr. Swindle can can uh uh cite something other than the congressional budget office now uh controlled by the Republican Party, which has indicated that the deficit has come down and the rate of the deficit has come down for the first time since World War II.

[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Great recover the Clinton administration, a couple of facts here. Economic growth during the uh Clinton administration had been about 2.3% annually during the Reagan administration. It was 3.9%. Medium family income was is increase has been 0%, nothing, nada. 0% for during the Reagan during the Clinton years and it was 1.7% during the Reagan years. Productivity in the country during the Clinton years .6% annually increasing in the Reagan years 1.6% annually. Real disposable income during the Clinton years 2.3% in the Reagan years 3.5%. Employment up 2.7 2% in the uh the Clinton years and 2.4% in the Reagan years. We're running it half speed. This is not progress.

[00:19:45] Neil Abercrombie: Let's let's let Neil into this. Well, you got statistics, you got uh numbers and of course, you have uh uh lies. Be careful. So, Oh, you don't have to warn me to be careful, Mr. Swindel, let's try to stick to doing a debate. If we want to be careful, I think what we ought to do is cite the sources. I I've talked about your sources here. Those figures that you're using I can come up with other figures, it'll end up one set of figures being against another set of figures. That's all there is to that. The facts are very, very simple. The deficit, has the deficit come down or has it not from that which was projected in 1992? Has the rate of the deficit, has the rate of the deficit come down since 1992 or has it not?

[00:20:31] Randall Roth: I don't deny that. Yes. Okay, thank you very much.

[00:20:35] Neil Abercrombie: Will Mr. Abercrombie, please answer my question, my original question. How do you justify helping working people by raising their taxes or uh or resisting reducing their taxes? The taxes were raised on the richest people in this country. The uh well, you see, you want me to give you an answer and I give you an answer. Your your tax increases, the reason you're upset is is that the wealthiest people in this country had to pay more of their share. During the Reagan years, the wealthiest people in this country started taking away the prosperity of of the middle and working classes. Those are the people you represent. I understand why you're upset. Your friends, your friends, the ones who have all the wealth in this country want even more. They can't get enough. And so, if there has been a tax increase on the wealthy, I plead guilty. If that's what you want to accuse me of, be my guest because I'll tell you the working people that support me understand who you're for and who they were for. The Republicans are for transferring the wealth of this country even further to the rich people in this country. If that's what you want, that's fine. You admit that the deficit has decreased. You admit that the rate of the deficit has decreased. The reason that deficit was up and the reason it was hurting working people was because of the spending that went on during the Republican administrations. Last point Randy. In any presidential election the President always gets the credit if something is is going well. He gets the fault when something is going wrong. If if the deficit came down and the rate of the deficit came down in the Reagan in the uh in the Reagan administration, he could have claimed the credit instead it went up. It went down during the Clinton administration the Republicans said it wouldn't. They have no business now than trying to take that credit away from President Clinton.

[00:22:14] Randall Roth: Orson, I'm not talking about President Clinton. I'm still still trying to get Mr. Abercrombie to tell me how his voting to raise taxes helps the people of this state.

[00:22:20] Neil Abercrombie: I voted to reduce the deficit. You admitted that's what happened. You keep on to turn blue about raising taxes and it only affects the rich. Okay. That's the end of end of round two. Uh and I really appreciate I feel like I'm listening to to to an advocate for socialism back in the 60s. Well, you guys I really appreciate your engaging in in what I consider a real debate. I'm enjoying this a lot. I hope our listeners are. This is the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. We've got Orson Swindle and Neil Abercrombie and see I didn't do it in alphabetical order that time. We've got candidates for Congress and we're not taking calls this morning because we've got two good of a show. We don't want to interrupt it. Neil, you got something else? I think it's I think it is illustrative and certainly illuminating that the second I stayed with the specifics about getting the deficit down, Mr. Swindle goes back to a negative uh attack. All of a sudden now it's socialism. I feel like I'm listening to a socialist. Since when is it a part of socialism that they actually have the deficit come down? That's what people said they voted for. I'm I am not only uh quite willing to admit, I'm anxious to say that when you go into the Congress, you have to take pay attention to the general welfare of the whole country as well as the state from which you come, the district from which you come. What good does it do to have accusations like that uh this is socialism uh come up. If that's the way the the debate is going to degenerate we won't get anywhere.

[00:24:03] Randall Roth: Okay. It was Neil's turn to raise an issue. And and Orson, what I heard Neil just say, maybe you heard something different but he's saying your campaign has been very negative, uh not productive in terms of really engaging in the issues. That it doesn't help to just call him a socialist. What do you have to say? Well I would say uh Mr. Abercrombie made a comment that my ad in the in the advertising start bulletin week a half ago was a negative ad, the it was a factual ad. and if he considers it negative, I would say it has to be it's negative because it's his record and that's all we talked about. Uh very quickly on the tax issue uh during the Reagan administration we cut taxes of President Reagan and the and the Congress cut taxes. And as a result of those tax cuts, the amount of taxes that rich people as Mr. Abercrombie likes to fleil away on uh paid the amount they paid into the into the federal coffers increased. Uh under the Clinton administration where we have raised taxes on the rich, uh the proportion or or the share of our gross taxes that are collected from the rich is going down. See, the the rich can avoid taxes. It's the middle class that's trapped. Uh Mr. Abercrombie's economics are just wrong and he's he's factually incorrect there. I'd like to talk a little bit about the balancing the budget. I think it's extremely important that the that our Congress work toward balancing the budget and of course Mr. Abercrombie opposes the balanced budget amendment and there were numerous proposals to balance the budget in seven years and he voted against virtually everyone. He did vote for one. President Clinton, if I recall correctly, right there around January or sometime, they did offer one. The figures realistic, it was defeated in Congress on a bipartisan vote by about 300 to 117. Uh Mr. Abercrombie has steadfastly opposed balancing the federal government, which basically means he doesn't want to curb spending. Uh I'd like for us to talk about that because I think our children's future depends on us balancing the budget.

[00:25:37] Neil Abercrombie: Okay, well those are the opening statements, Neil, you get the floor. Thank you. Let's get back to specifics again rather than what uh Mr. Swindel thinks might have happened. Uh on the on the balanced budget. The only way you can move to a balanced budget, of course, is to reduce the deficit. If you don't reduce the deficit, you can't balance the budget. You can balance the books but you can't balance the budget. Now, the amendment that he was talking about was of course the Republican amendment. Actually I voted against the Republican amendment because it didn't it didn't balance the budget. I have a copy of the uh of the Republican uh so-called balanced budget proposal right with me, which I've read from from cover to cover. I will give you the specific pages even if you want to see whether or not balancing the budget. You can start on page 44 if you want. And what you'll see is there is a deficit every year, right until the year 2002 and when magically the budget has a surplus. Then it slips back in. Maybe it surplus for about 3 and a half seconds, uh according to the books that are put forward on it by the Republican Party. What they don't say in is what and what Mr. Swindle has avoided saying to this point is where they're going to get the money to offset the deficit they have in every single year of the Republican proposed budget. They get it from the Social Security trust fund. That's where they get the money. At the end of that time, some $528 billion according to the Republican budget itself will have to somehow be made up for in the Social Security trust fund. That's where the money is coming from for his so-called uh balanced budget. I voted for a balanced budget amendment and it's roll call vote 178 on the 16th of May 1996, when we presented one that did not harm education, did not harm Medicare, did not harm Medicaid and did not harm the environment. That's the balanced budget approach that the Democrats are taking, one that takes people into account.

[00:27:24] Randall Roth: Orson? Uh you know, Mr. Abercrombie likes to pretend that Republicans don't care about people. You know, we all have parents and grandparents and friends and neighbors and relatives. We all care about people. It the everybody in in in the country recognizes that government spending is out of control and we have to get government spending under control. No, you don't you don't balance a budget uh without making some tough choices. That's the problem. Nobody in Congress has been willing in years to to uh make the tough choices. Uh President Clinton had a Democrat Congress for two years and made no effort to balance the budget. They made no effort to get welfare reform, welfare as we know it, made no effort to get spending under control. We have to do some cutting of of of runaway programs and believe me, we can do major cutting throughout government, not touch social programs. Nobody wants to destroy Medicare as Mr. Abercrombie alludes, nobody wants to take school lunches away from kids as he came home here a couple of a year and a half ago and said. But we do have to act responsible and be courageous enough to take care of this spending.

[00:28:26] Neil Abercrombie: Neil, you've got a few seconds to wind this one. Okay, I don't need more than a I don't need more than a few seconds to answer glittering generalities, the fact is Mr. Swindle did not answer any of the points that I raised with respect to are they or are they not uh establishing their balanced budget on the backs of the Social Security trust fund. Right here is a copy of the concurrent resolution on the budget, fiscal year 1997 from the House of Representatives Republican Party page 44. I'll be happy to show it to you Randy, and obviously we can't do it over the air. What you will see here outlays, revenues, deficit. Here's the deficit at the end, 528 billion $476 million from the Republican party coming out of the Social Security trust fund. It's not me that's making this up, this is printed by the Republican Party in the Congress of the United States. Okay, new round and and if you want to pick up on the same topic, Orson, but it's your turn to start. You've got up to two minutes to either raise a completely different issue or take this one in in a hopefully a different direction. Okay, we're concerned here in Hawaii about jobs and opportunity. As we all know, we've got our members of our family, especially a lot of our young people leaving the islands because there are no opportunities for them. We've even we're even seeing senior citizens in the community, some people have been here for years leaving because on fixed incomes or relative on fixed incomes they can't afford to stay here because of high cost of living. Jobs and economic opportunity are so important to us here and we must do things to uh facilitate a a a better economy. Uh one of the real devastating blows to us has been the downsizing of our defense uh establishment and particularly our Navy and uh by downsizing it it means less maintenance for our uh naval repair facilities out here at Pearl Harbor and just here a day or two ago, we saw where more jobs were going to be lost and Mr. Abercrombie has consistently voted to downsize the military. Uh does he vote for the final appropriation bill? Yes, he always does, but that's a foregone conclusion because the vast, vast, vast majority of Congress will vote for it. But he has consistently advocated and voted with the Clinton administration to downsize the uh the the defense establishment and the Navy has been particularly hurt by the downsizing of the defense establishment and we are suffering for it for jobs here.

[00:34:28] Neil Abercrombie: is just going to set up uh because the fact is, if you're that same article you're reading, is we've just got uh new submarines coming here. The program is changing. We're going into the 21st century. Now, if you want to look backwards in time, I suppose you can do that. Mr. Doll is doing that. He wants to build a bridge to the past and it sounds as if you're walking uh uh uh arm-in-arm with Senator Doll backwards into time. I however, serving on the National Defense Committee, on the Armed Services Committee, now called the National Security Committee, have to look to the future and in looking to the future, we understand what the Pacific Rim is all about. I'm an exact tune with General Krulak who's the Commandant of the Marine Corps. I'm sure someone with whom you're familiar, you might have been familiar with his dad. I'm an exact, uh uh, uh consonance with the Admiral Pryor on this and the the Navy's uh approach uh to the Pacific. I think people might not be aware of the fact that I've been named the Democratic member on the submarine panel uh from the House of Representatives that will make recommendations to the Congress uh with respect to what's going to happen with submarines. The kinds of ships that we're going to have in the 21st century are an entirely new process. The procurement process has to change. We're downsizing because the ships that we had in World War II will not suffice for the 21st century. That's the reason it happened. What we are voting to downsize and and against in terms of the budget is Star Wars, the National Missile Defense System that was going to cost up to $60 billion that would prevent us from having a modern Navy, prevent us from being able to deal with our armed services out here in the Pacific. Your problem I think on this is is your you have your face fixed firmly backwards and not to the future.

[00:36:15] Randall Roth: Okay, there the gauntlet's been thrown and response has been made. Orson, your turn. The the floor is open, but go ahead. You know, I I Mr. Abercrombie uh to say you're in I forgotten the term you use but in in in total agreement or words to that effect with General Crulack and Admiral Priar is quite an exaggeration or a statement. Uh here's a statement out of the American Almanac of politics that back in 1994, it said he's referring to Mr. Abercrombie. He said, and by the way, this is an an organization that assesses the members of Congress their voting records. And really it probably it's called the bible of of American politics in Congress or for Congress and looking at it, they quote and say this, he, Mr. Abercrombie, would like to take a nation that has moved toward market economics and assertive foreign policies in just the opposite direction toward a massive welfare state if not socialism and dismantle the military. And here's a quote from Mr. Abercrombie. After a while, they're going to see that there's nowhere to go with all this stuff. And then they go on to say he has arguably the most liberal voting record in the Congress. The Clinton administration, this is not a quote from them, but their five-year defense spending plan, uh Mr. Abercrombie was in lock step with it and is estimated and I said this two years ago, that it was going to cost thousands of jobs out here in Hawaii and and in effect it is.

[00:37:34] Neil Abercrombie: Well, I mean the indictment is yourself. That that is probably one of the saddest statements of response that I've ever heard. First you cite Michael Barone. Why don't you say who it was that wrote this so-called bible? It's Michael Barone, well-known right wing He wrote that whole book. Yeah, Michael Barone and and his and his partner. You mean you can't cite the authors of Oh, I don't mind citing the authors Why why don't you cite him? Michael Barone and Grant I can't pronounce it. Let's pronounce the last name. [unintelligible — audio glitch] Ja

[00:38:00] Orson Swindle: A Chinese name, isn't it? You have a trouble with that?

[00:38:02] Neil Abercrombie: What does that mean, Mr. Abercrombie?

[00:38:03] Orson Swindle: I'm asking you. Are you having trouble with the name?

[00:38:05] Neil Abercrombie: What does that mean, Mr. Abercrombie?

[00:38:06] Orson Swindle: Are you having trouble with the name? How can you cite something that you can't

[00:38:10] Neil Abercrombie: Would you please answer my question?

[00:38:11] Orson Swindle: Are you having trouble with the name?

[00:38:13] Neil Abercrombie: I said, I I don't know that name. I never even seen the name, but, but

[00:38:16] Orson Swindle: If you haven't seen the name, how can you cite the book, then? Who are, what is the background of the authors? What is the background of the authors?

[00:38:24] Neil Abercrombie: Mr. Abercrombie, that's a ridiculous statement. I can cite, I have a lot of books.

[00:38:27] Orson Swindle: When you say dismantle the military, cite specifically how we are dismantling the military.

[00:38:30] Neil Abercrombie: You have voted consistently against

[00:38:33] Orson Swindle: Cite specifically, what

[00:38:35] Neil Abercrombie: You are interrupting me.

[00:38:35] Orson Swindle: Cite specifically what dismantling the military means in terms of that book.

[00:38:39] Neil Abercrombie: Well, let's let's go back to '93. What would the group, let's, cite the book. Wait a minute. Randy, you said

[00:38:43] Orson Swindle: You keep asking me a question and I keep trying to answer and you keep interrupting me. No, you can't cite it. What you do is you read something from a book by somebody who's a well-known right-wing outfit. Oh, come on now. The American Almanac of Politics, the right-wing outfit. Everybody, everybody who disagrees with you, Mr. Abercrombie, is right-wing radical. dismantling the military. Are you for Star Wars or against it then?

[00:39:03] Neil Abercrombie: I am very much for a good missile defense system, sir.

[00:39:05] Orson Swindle: Are you for the Star Wars, the national defense missile system as as opposed to the theater missile defense system which the Pentagon favors?

[00:39:11] Neil Abercrombie: We we are working now for the theater missile defense system. We need

[00:39:15] Orson Swindle: Which the Pentagon favors, right? And they do not favor the national missile defense system, right?

[00:39:19] Neil Abercrombie: I realize that, but we are we have to

[00:39:21] Orson Swindle: Okay, then you know more than the Pentagon.

[00:39:23] Neil Abercrombie: Let's let's let Orson finish. Go ahead, go ahead.

[00:39:24] Orson Swindle: I don't even know what he means by that. Well, I'm sure you don't. And by, what do you mean when you cite the work, which controlled all this stuff? What stuff?

[00:39:31] Neil Abercrombie: The military hardware and things. And things.

[00:39:35] Orson Swindle: What hardware?

[00:39:36] Neil Abercrombie: Mr. Abercrombie, back in 1993, along with some of his compatriots in the the more liberal elements of the Democrat Party, they wanted to cut our defense spending even more than the Clinton administration. Their their proposal to cut the defense budget was quite excessive and was soundly defeated by a bipartisan vote in the Congress. And of course, the Clinton administration budget eventually went through because the Democrats had control of Congress, and Mr. Abercrombie voted for that also. But it is a well-known fact. Everybody knows that if you look at the organizations that support military, the military establishment, Mr. Abercrombie comes out with zero ratings across the board.

[00:40:10] Orson Swindle: Okay. Um, Neil, we got to stop at some place. I know. I know. We got to stop at some place, and it's your turn to raise a new issue, and that's why I gave Orson the last word on that one. Go for it. You got up to two minutes. Well, let's go to, uh, the situation with Medicare. Here we have in in October 24th, 1995, and in as much as Mr. Swindel is so so fond of of of of quoting, uh, uh phrases and and uh, issues from these, uh, these organizations, uh on the mainland. Here's a speech, the American Conservative Union. I trust that that I won't be accused of being a socialist, uh for, uh, uh quoting something of a speech from, from Bob Dole of the American Conservative Union. I was there fighting the fight voting against Medicare, 1 of 12 because we wouldn't, we knew it wouldn't work in 1965.

[00:41:02] Orson Swindle: Then we go to uh Mr. Swindel's uh, good friend in the Congress, Newt Gingrich. Uh, Newt Gingrich, he said he's signed on to the Contract of America, I put it as the Contract on America, and that he is Mr. Gingrich's fast and true friend. Let's see what uh Mr. uh Gingrich had to say in October of '95 to the Blue Cross Blue Shield. Now, we didn't get rid of it in round one because we don't think that's politically smart, and we don't think that's the right way to go through a transition, but we believe it's going to wither on the vine because we think people are voluntarily going to leave it. So, it's pretty clear that when it comes to trying to transfer these these tax cut breaks, these tax giveaways to the wealthy, where the Republicans are going to try and get the money, they're going to try and get it out of Medicare, the very system they say they want to save.

[00:41:52] Orson Swindle: Okay. Orson, your turn.

[00:41:53] Neil Abercrombie: Mr. Abercrombie is using a lot of innuendo here. First off, uh, he and I are running against each other. He seems to want to run against Bob Dole and Newt Gingrich, you know, I can get you a ticket back to the mainland if you like and you can go run against them. But that's not the issue here. Uh, the con, the quote there about, about uh from Newt Gingrich is out of context. He knows it's out of context. And if you have that, and I don't have the the the statement exactly, but it's totally out of context. It's been used repeatedly by the Democrats. It's meaningless, it's erroneous, it's misleading, and it's just typical. It's out of context, and you are smart enough, you have a PhD, you know that statements taken out of context can be construed to mean something else, and that's exactly the way you use it. May I finish?

[00:42:33] Orson Swindle: Orson, Orson's still on his two minutes.

[00:42:34] Neil Abercrombie: Okay. Uh, secondly, nobody is wanting to take money out of well, out of Medicare and give it to the rich. That's an absurd statement, and again it goes back to the class uh uh warfare tactics, the rich versus the poor, the, you know, that Mr. Abercrombie seems to like to delve in, you know, the politics of nostalgia here in Hawaii. And uh uh the welfare, I mean, the Medicare trust fund, uh any savings in it stays in it. That's the whole purpose of doing it. It is not, we're trying to save the system. Uh, I was raised by my grandmother and great grandmother and and and knowing so many people whose parents have had to rely on welfare, I mean on Medicare, uh it is absolutely critical that we save the system for our senior citizens, for our parents and for our grandparents, and perhaps for us.

[00:43:22] Neil Abercrombie: We have to get on the get toward the business of saving it, and Mr. Mr. Abercrombie and his colleagues completely fight efforts to save the system.

[00:43:30] Orson Swindle: We open it up for give and take. Neil, won't you start? If if, uh, uh Mr. Swindel now wants to disassociate himself from Newt Gingrich and Bob Dole, uh, that's okay with me. I'm not disassociating myself from from, uh, Dick Gephart and and uh, and President Clinton.

[00:43:46] Neil Abercrombie: Have I brought up them up at all?

[00:43:47] Orson Swindle: No, I I understand why you wouldn't want to bring them up, but that's for sure. Bob Dole is in meltdown right now, and I can understand why you might want to try and run away. Uh, and I also am very happy to hear that because something is factual, it may be taken out of context, because Mr. Swindel's defense uh, or or what we, uh best thing you can call a defense to this point, has been that something was factual. Well, lots of things can be factual, but they if they're if they're not contextual, if they don't fit into an overall perspective, uh, and an overall analysis, it doesn't mean very much. So, I'm glad to get that.

[00:44:22] Orson Swindle: Although, I am a little shocked and uh uh it is possible still to be shocked Randy in in in in politics uh to have um Mr. Swindel characterize my concerns as being the politics of nostalgia here in Hawaii so dismissively and derisively as he did. Now, I'm not quite sure what he means by the politics of nostalgia. Uh, I'm I I I know what I mean by nostalgia in Hawaii. If that means that that somehow we should turn back, turn our backs on the legacy of the Democratic Party from 1954 in Hawaii up until the present time, I'm not going to do that. I can understand why he would. If he wants to make some kind of fun out of the people who who who brought the foundation for modern Hawaii, he can do it, but I don't think it's going to get him very far.

[00:45:10] Neil Abercrombie: Well, in the first place, I'm not making fun of anybody, Mr. Abercrombie knows that. It it's fascinating to watch the rhetoric of the Democrats uh, in in here in their in their campaigning as they refer back to those harsh Republicans, you know, the rich versus the poor and the the plantation days. We are approaching the the year 2000, the next millennium. We have to be looking forward. We don't need to go back as Mr. Abercrombie has also suggested and look to the past. We have to look to the future. We have to find opportunities for our people, jobs for our young people so they will stay here. We're losing our most precious resource uh due to lack of economic opportunity.

[00:45:49] Neil Abercrombie: Uh, I'm not running away from anybody, Mr. Abercrombie. I'm just running against you. I'm not running against uh, Bob Dole, I mean uh Bill Clinton or Dick Gephart, and I would assume you're not running against Newt Gingrich and uh, Bob Dole. We have a, we have, Oh, you are? I see. Okay. I certainly am. Okay.

[00:46:06] Orson Swindle: You're running on the Democratic Party ticket. I thought you were running on the Republican Party ticket. Now, if you want to disassociate yourself, as you just said,

[00:46:12] Neil Abercrombie: No, I'm not, I'm definitely running against the Republican and you know that and know there's no effort, that's ridiculous.

[00:46:17] Orson Swindle: I tell you what. Let's shift gears. Orson, it's your turn to bring up an important issue in this campaign.

[00:46:24] Neil Abercrombie: Okay. Welfare reform. Let's talk about welfare reform. Uh, a tough issue. Uh, everybody in the country uh is acutely aware, including, uh, many, many people who are on welfare, uh, that the welfare system has basically self-destructed. Uh, we've spent over $5 trillion on welfare over the last 30 years since uh Great Society program started in 1965, all of which had good intentions. Nobody even questions that. Uh, we're concerned about the the less fortunate in our country, those who need help and perhaps can't help themselves or down and out. Uh, we spent more money on the welfare system and fighting poverty than we spent over against in all the wars we've ever fought. $5 trillion. But everybody now knows it's destructive, it's destroying our, it's it's destroying our inner cities, it's destroying our families, it's destroying children, children are destroying children, and worst of all, it's destroying hope.

[00:47:19] Neil Abercrombie: Uh, everybody knows we have to reform it. We reformed it. We passed legislation. The legislation is not perfect. In fact, I would go so far as to say, I've never seen a perfect piece of legislation when my time in in working on uh, in the government. And, uh, but yet, Mr. Abercrombie, although 80% of the country thinks we should do something about this system, President Clinton said we need to reform in welfare as we know it, and he was willing to sign the thing. Mr. Abercrombie voted against it four times. You know, I don't know what it takes to get a congressman to go and responsibly act on behalf of the people of this community and the community of the uh of the country, uh, to try to correct a really bad program, and he voted against it.

[00:47:58] Orson Swindle: Okay, Neil, up to two minutes to respond. Well, I guess we've got to get back uh from the glittering generalities again to what I did vote for, which of course was the Tanner Castle bill, a bipartisan bill. That vote, of course I voted against the Republican bill because the Republican bill attacked immigrants, legal immigrants. It tried to to get money to help make up for the tax giveaway that Mr. Dole and the Republicans wanted to give to the wealthy by taking benefits away from immigrants, legal immigrants, who are paying taxes and entitled to services, but who can't vote yet, or on their way to becoming citizens. And Mr. Swindle knows because he sent me a fax, a copy of which I have, indicating that non-citizens and and felons should be denied these benefits. In other words, if you're an immigrant, if you if someone who came up to me when Alan Matsuoka from the Star Bulletin was talking to me yesterday, a woman who came up to me on the street when I was there and gave me a hug weeping because I helped get her brother from the Philippines to Hawaii. Just next week, he'll be coming.

[00:49:01] Orson Swindle: When that person comes here or somebody like Ben Kayatanos father, a legal immigrant, supporting two kids, working two jobs, if he had been hit by a bus, he would have been denied those benefits as a legal immigrant because he hadn't yet attained attained his citizenship. He would have been equated according to Mr. Swindle and the facts I received with felons, as if he was a criminal, because someone has not yet attained their citizenship and they're working for it, that's what was in that bill. If you want to attack the immigrant heritage [unintelligible — audio glitch] state, you can do that. If you want to if you want to attack the children that would be hurt in that context, you can do that. In the Tanner Castle bill that I voted for, children were not hurt, immigrants were not attacked in that fashion. That's why I voted for the bill that actually gave some reform to welfare as opposed to attacking helpless individuals.

[00:49:50] Orson Swindle: If that's going to be the Republican philosophy and your philosophy, you're welcome to it.

[00:49:54] Neil Abercrombie: Okay, we open it up for give and take. Orson get them, get us started. Obviously, I'm not interested in tack attacking innocent people. Uh as far as helping uh refugees and people who want to come to this country, I've done my share of that too. I've helped uh Vietnamese get in this country and and and and of course have been very supportive of their efforts. And the key to the whole uh immigration problem, and and we are a nation of immigrants. Our strength comes from being uh a nation of immigrants and Hawaii is perhaps the best example of it. We are a rich, wonderful and a and and and progressive and intelligent and and and productive uh community because of immigrants. We're all products of immigrants.

[00:50:35] Neil Abercrombie: We have to get control of illegal immigration in this country if we are going to be able to exercise legal immigration. And those people who come to this country should come here, we would hope, obviously, they're coming here out of hope. Uh they want opportunity, that's why people come to America. We should, they should all be striving to become a part of our fabric as citizens of this country, and that's uh I think that's the overall intent. The border states of California, Texas and Arizona, they're hurting desperately because of illegal immigration, and we do have to take some courageous steps. That bill is not perfect, it needs modification probably and we need to work on that.

[00:51:10] Orson Swindle: Well, you know, but I'm not talking about the immigration bill, that's a separate set of horrors. I'm talking about the welfare reform bill. That's what you brought, you brought up this, uh, issue, not me. Now you have to stick with it.

[00:51:20] Neil Abercrombie: You chose to talk about the immigration aspect of it. I was just responding to you.

[00:51:23] Orson Swindle: That's right, so let's talk about the immigration aspect of the welfare bill. Let's not talk about the immigration, we can talk I'll bring up the immigration bill and we can go with that. That's a uh that is such a uh uh uh an insult to immigrants in this country and and any family of immigrant heritage as as to be almost incomprehensible. Are you telling me then, if that needed to be fixed, that you had you been in Congress would have voted for the Tanner Castle uh substitute welfare bill rather than the Republican bill?

[00:51:50] Neil Abercrombie: I I'm not familiar with all the details though. I'll I'll admit to that. I don't have the privilege of being there right now. I will be there in January and I'll be far more informed as to the intimate details of it, but we do have to be responsible in our actions in in Congress, Mr. Abercrombie. We have to be able to pay for what we do and we can't keep hurting uh states such as California, Arizona, Texas, they are just burdened down with illegal immigration, and you know that and you do nothing to solve the problem.

[00:52:15] Orson Swindle: That's the immigration bill, I'm concerned about Hawaii. If you're concerned about California and Arizona and the rest, we can get to that later. We can get to that later, but I I don't I don't see how you can attack me as not having voted for a welfare bill and then tell me you're not familiar with the welfare bill I did vote for and be unable to express the differences between

[00:52:37] Neil Abercrombie: That bill did not pass. That bill did not pass. The the just because Newt Gingrich and the Republicans still hold the the the power in the Congress, which will be removed in January. One of the reasons that you won't be there in January and Newt Gingrich will not be speaker in January is precisely because of this kind of bill. And I can tell you as far as Hawaii is concerned, every family of immigrant heritage will be perfectly aware of what bill you were for and what one I was for, and which would have hurt immigrants and hurt immigrants were coming here today and working here today.

[00:53:06] Orson Swindle: It does not surprise me that you have said that you've never seen a perfect piece of of legislation because you've never been in a legislature. I tell you what. And I'm going to give Orson the the last word on this one because Neil, you're up next. Very, very quickly, Orson, few seconds, say something on on what we've been talking about, which is immigration, welfare reform.

[00:53:26] Neil Abercrombie: Everybody in this country knows the welfare system is is destroying decent human beings left and right. It is a massive failure. We have to change this. We have to make improvements in it. And the Republican effort has been to reform it. They have passed legislation, which Mr. Abercrombie opposed and President Clinton signed it. Okay. He is out of us, Mr. Abercrombie's out of step with the people of this country and the state.

[00:53:51] Orson Swindle: I want to remind listeners this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. We're not taking calls today. We've got too much action in the studio. I'm here with Neil Abercrombie, who's the Democratic candidate for Congress and the sitting congressman and Orson Swindel, who is his opponent in this race, was his opponent two years ago in in a closer race than people were predicting at the beginning of that race. We're not taking calls. Neil Abercrombie, it's your turn to raise an issue. You've got and again, two minutes is a maximum, not a goal. You've got uh you're up to two minutes to to toss down another gauntlet. Well, I think it was a natural um progression into the immigration bill then, uh, that is is currently, uh, being uh negotiated.

[00:54:36] Orson Swindle: Now, what we had in in our immigration bill, of course, is is that we have support for uh individuals who are here working. The this is about legal immigrants now. Because the illegal immigrants, we have all that. The President has put forward uh uh uh proposals to increase border guards, uh uh uh to to to make sure that the uh uh corporations that employ illegal immigrants have have sanctions against them for doing so. There's a whole whole program uh coming forward on that. The question is is whether in the process we're going to harm legal immigrants. And if you're from Hawaii and we're concerned about Hawaii here, obviously, that means tens of thousands of people in Hawaii are going to be hurt.

[00:55:18] Orson Swindle: If you're going to have uh guaranteed protections for children and contingency funds for economic downturns, that's what has to be in the immigration bill. You can't use immigrants as as a as a reason for for being able to justify giving your tax cuts away, your tax giveaways away. Now, this is what the immigration bill does. If you don't think so, I'll be very happy to to to quote to you just very briefly from the National Asian Pacific Legal Consortium, which is is representative of all the Asian Pacific people and as as [unintelligible — audio glitch] uh uh uh indicate here, deportation for using government assistance, the family immigration restrictions, people of Filipino ancestry in in this state are mortified, are scared to death as to what is going to happen uh to their families with immigration bill as it presently exists under the Republican.

[00:56:11] Orson Swindle: When the when the first version of this bill passed the House, there were people on the floor on the Republican side chanting USA, USA, USA. That to me is anti-immigrant bashing. We know that that's what it's all about, and we know that it's just for presumed political advantage with those people who are worried about illegal immigration.

[00:56:29] Neil Abercrombie: Orson, you've got up to two minutes to respond. Well, I I was sort of get lost in Mr. Abercrombie's rhetoric there in the early stages and I couldn't not help but to think back to his op-ed piece here a week or so ago, where he spent 600 words referring and and and and frequently in the in the document about immigration, he talked about undocumented immigrants and he never used the word illegal as if he was afraid of the word illegal. What we're trying to do with the immigration process is curtail, if

[00:57:00] Orson Swindle: stop illegal immigration because for every illegal immigration who comes in and is has access to these various and sundry support programs that social programs, they are competing with people who are legal immigrants. And in talking to my friends who are from Vietnam and China and the Philippines, they are concerned with how illegal immigrants are taking away from legal immigrants. We should do everything in our power to assist legal immigrants in this country. By definition they are legal immigrants. We have accepted them into our circle. We have obligations there and I would be very much a proponent for trying to see that that is done uh handled properly. They are they receive the assistance they need when they need it.

[00:57:42] Orson Swindle: But one of the provisions is when you come, you should be uh able to support yourself or be in a family that can support you as opposed to coming to America to go on the welfare system. I think the vast majority of people in this state as well as around the country would agree with that.

[00:57:56] Randall Roth: Okay, give and take. Yeah, surely you're not suggesting that immigrants coming to Hawaii are coming here, legal immigrants to get on the welfare system. Surely you're not suggesting that.

[00:58:04] Orson Swindle: I said I legal Do you say illegal or legal? I said legal. I said I said I did not suggest it. No, I did not.

[00:58:11] Randall Roth: Very good. Now if you didn't uh suggest that uh and you're referring to my uh um uh article here, I take it then that if we agree that illegal immigrants should not be able to take any of the positions uh the jobs, the benefits of legal immigrants, that you oppose all those elements in the current bill that the Republicans are now negotiating that takes any benefits away from legal immigrants.

[00:58:39] Orson Swindle: I I we're talking about legal illegal immigrant. I'm talking about legal now. The present bill

[00:58:43] Randall Roth: Can I finish can I answer your question? You should answer the question. We're talking about the immigration bill as it exists. You're the one who brought up the idea of facts, you're the one who brought up the idea of context. The present Republican immigration bill takes away benefits from legal immigrants who are working, who are paying taxes. Do you or do you not support taking those elements out of the bill that hurts legal immigrants?

[00:59:05] Orson Swindle: I think you're exaggerating a point. I think we have to uh accommodate legal immigrants because we have made a contract with them when they come in this country. Please, quit interrupting me. I think we have to make the immigration system such that when people come to this country, and I would use the Vietnamese is a good example.

[00:59:24] Randall Roth: Let's talk about the bill. The bill. That's what we do in a Congress. We deal with legislation. Let's deal with the bill. Do you support those issues in the bill that hurt legal immigrants?

[00:59:35] Orson Swindle: Mr. Abercrombie, please quit pointing your fingers and hands at me and quit treating me like you're a prosecuting attorney and let me answer the question. Let's be civil about this thing.

[00:59:43] Randall Roth: Let's answer the question.

[00:59:45] Orson Swindle: Let me go.

[00:59:48] Randall Roth: You got all I am not able to do it yet. It's a simple thing. Do you or do you not support removing the same thing against legal immigrants?

[00:59:56] Orson Swindle: Obviously, Mr. Abercrombie doesn't want me to deal with this question. Let's go to another question.

[01:00:02] Randall Roth: I'm not, Mr. Abercrombie. I have never run away. Sir, don't talk to me about running away. You know better than that. All right, that's uh the bell. I tell you what. I, through my inexperience, I'd hoped to have it an even number in terms of each of you being able to raise the same number of issues, and I screwed up just a bit. Neil was first and, and so Orson is short a little bit, and that's the reason, the only reason why we're going to let Orson have the last word. And what I mean by that is we've got time for Neil to say in 1 minute, anything that needs to be added to what we've gone through over the last 58 minutes, and then Orson, you'll have a minute and then we're just going to have to get out of here real quickly.

[01:00:35] Orson Swindle: That's fine. Thank you. That sounds good. Uh Neil first, me first?

[01:00:39] Randall Roth: Neil goes first because we're going to give you the last word since you didn't get to raise quite as many issues as Neil got to raise.

[01:00:45] Orson Swindle: Go ahead, Neil.

[01:00:47] Neil Abercrombie: Yes. Thank you very much. I do appreciate the opportunity uh for being here, Randy, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak with Mr. Swindle. Uh the bottom line in this is is that there will be an election on November 5th. We have a small delegation, far, far away from Washington. It's absolutely imperative that our delegation be unified. Mr. Swindle has a a long record uh going back to his time as a Washington bureaucrat in the Reagan administration, uh of confrontation, of of uh of uh uh battling with people, uh not coming to a resolution. You can't do that in a legislative context, certainly not in the Congress when there's only two of you, uh and you have to get 216 other people to go with you.

[01:01:29] Neil Abercrombie: We have a unified team. We've been able to score for Hawaii, we'll continue to do that, and I can assure you that the promises that I made in 1990 that I would be part of that congressional team, that I would try to contribute to the good work that Senator Noy, Senator Kaka and Representative Mink have done uh and and continue to do is something that I'm proud to be a a part of and will continue to do. If our little delegation is going to then have someone whose sole purpose is is to go after the rest of us and to be a part of the new minority in Congress which will be the Republicans after November 5th, then I think Hawaii will be very badly served.

[01:02:03] Neil Abercrombie: A unified Democratic delegation has always worked for Hawaii, it's going to work for Hawaii in 1997.

[01:02:08] Randall Roth: Okay, real close to a minute, a little bit over. Orson, we're going to give you exactly the same amount of time, even though we're going to have to go over just a little bit. You've got a minute 23 seconds. Go for it.

[01:02:17] Orson Swindle: Thank you very much, Randy. It's a pleasure to be here and always a a challenge to meet with Mr. Abercrombie and and and match wits. First off, uh he is dead wrong. There will be a Republican majority in Congress and probably will increase in both houses. So, it would be nice if Hawaii had uh some representation in that majority and also a voice that would be respected and listened to by that majority. And I don't think we really have that except in the case of Senator Noy, who is a phenomenal uh person for Hawaii. He's been a great Senator and uh I can assure you that the vast majority of anything that's ever come to Hawaii uh given the current makeup of our delegation has been primarily uh and foremost the work of Senator Noy. We all know that.

[01:02:59] Orson Swindle: As far as working with the team, I've been working with teams all my life and I have had disagreements and uh Mr. Abercrombie in one sense says I'm [unintelligible — audio glitch] I'm hard to work with and yet he said I was a clone of Newt Gingrich, the words to that effect and I was going to do everything they said, so I can't be both things. I've been very independent all my life. I've had tough jobs, I've run large government agencies, I've managed through my efforts in running those agencies dealing with uh almost hopeless situations that I inherited with massive uh debts that were delinquent and and trapping and and shutting down the waste of of of government money and taxpayer money.

[01:03:31] Orson Swindle: I believe we need tax cuts for our working families, I believe we need uh to save Medicare for our parents and grandparents, I believe we need to balance the budget for our children and their future. This election is about the future of Hawaii and that's why we need representation on the Republican side in Congress.

[01:03:45] Randall Roth: Okay, that was a minute 24. Good job. Thank you Neil Abercrombie, thank you Orson Swindle. Our producer is Susie Roth, the director of Operations Jeff Ilarity, helping out immensely this morning again, Jenny Tanji, John Roth and Tyler Ow. Next week we're going to talk about drug use. It's up, what do we do about it? Some people say harm reduction, others people other people say let's crack down harder. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.