Endangered Species in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-10-13
Guests: Paul S. Aoki (Honolulu attorney); Marjorie Ziegler (resource analyst, Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund); Michael Buck (Administrator, Division of Forestry and Wildlife, Hawaii DLNR); Cynthia Salley (general planner, McCandless Ranch)
Duration: 1:08:54

[00:00:03] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR and KKUA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO. The people who put these shows together are volunteers. We do what we do because we enjoy doing it, and because we believe in the importance of lively and informed dialogue. Our sponsor, the Hawaii Community Foundation, is an organization that encourages grass-roots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii, and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Our topic today is endangered species. And if you haven't looked at the Honolulu Advertiser yet, I would encourage you to do so. It begins on page one of the focus section and goes over to page four. We've got four different articles. We've hit the big time today. Sometimes we have two or three. Today, we have four articles from different points of view talking about endangered species.

[00:01:00] Randall Roth: The authors of the articles are Paul Aoki, Sinny Saley, Marjorie Ziegler, and Mike Buck. And then we also have with us this morning, Linda Paul. I'm going to tell you just a little bit about all five of them, and then we're going to hear from each of them at least a little bit from each of them at the beginning of the hour. We'll open it up for questions and comments from callers, and then we'll hear again from our various guests toward the end of the hour. Paul Aoki is a partner with the law firm of Ashford and Riston. He represented the Mcandles ranch and the Kai Molino ranch in cases involving the Endangered Species Act.

[00:01:38] Randall Roth: Sinny Saley is the general partner of the Mcandles ranch where the last of the Alala lived. That's the Hawaiian crow. Linda Paul is an attorney and biologist, who currently is president of the Hawaii Audobon Society. Marjorie Ziegler is the resource analyst with the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund's mid-Pacific office. Previously, she worked for the Nature Conservacy. And Mike Buck is the administrator of the Division of Forestry and Wildlife in the State Department of Land and Natural Resources, sometimes called DLNR. Well, Marjorie, you're the only one with me in the studio this morning, and so I'll start with you. The topic is endangered species. Very briefly, what should our listeners know about the topic as we get into this conversation?

[00:02:24] Marjorie Ziegler: Yeah, thank you, Randy, Aloha, and um I just like to say that I think in order for us here in Hawaii to begin to address the endangered species situation, um we do in fact need cooperation among landowners and agencies and the citizens. We need support. We need increased funding as as Mike Buck will point out for endangered species programs. And I think most importantly, we need to start focusing on habitat. Uh without the habitat, these species will in fact go in go extinct. And just regarding a few comments in the advertiser this morning, I think that cooperation is like I said, necessary, but it should not come at the expense of the loss of citizens enforcement and the loss of citizens involvement in um implementing the act. And in in Hawaii from what I've seen and I've been looking at the situation for 10 years, the most significant actions that have taken place to help habitats has come in as a result of citizens' lawsuit um actions.

[00:03:23] Randall Roth: Okay, and as I understand it, your position is that if the law is to change, it ought to be toughened up as opposed to relaxed in some way.

[00:03:30] Marjorie Ziegler: That's correct.

[00:03:31] Randall Roth: And you feel that the Hawaii law should very specifically authorize so-called citizen lawsuits to where anyone could bring a lawsuit to try to protect endangered species.

[00:03:41] Marjorie Ziegler: I I think um that and also a focus to habitat protection on habitat protection.

[00:03:46] Randall Roth: Okay, and that's Marjorie uh Ziegler, who's a resource analyst with the CR Club Legal Defense fund, their office here in Hawaii. We also have with us and by phone from the mainland, she's on a trip visiting family members, Sinny Saley. She's the general partner of the Mcandles Ranch. Sinny, are you there? I am here. Thank you very much, Randy. Well, thank you. Uh could you very briefly tell us what you think we ought to be thinking about as we engage or begin to engage in this conversation? Okay, a little repetition for my article, um that was in the paper. I'm calling the Endangered Species Act, the law of unintended consequences and feel that really unless attitudes and methods change, the species themselves will suffer because cooperation has not been part of the formula. And I guess I disagree on, I don't guess, I know I disagree that um the suits don't make any progress, they're they're counterproductive. And um there's something needs to change in order to get cooperation uh from people who have places that need conservation.

[00:05:15] Randall Roth: Well, in fact you're saying there are disincentives, right? Absolutely. Disincentives are number one. Uh for instance, uh agricultural land is taxed at a higher rate than conservation land. Um, disincentives in the fact that if you reforest, you're considered to be a tree farm and your taxes are higher still. Uh, disincentives in that if you are named a critical habitat, the hammer really comes down on you and you're paralyzed. Mhm. Um, you have absolutely uh no management um ability on your on your property. Let me read a particularly provocative statement from your piece this morning. You say as land owners, we should feel privileged to have endangered species on our properties. We should want to contribute toward their production to toward their protection. Instead, because of the unintended consequences of this law, we want to get rid of them, hide them or kill them.

[00:05:59] Randall Roth: Right. You've got no incentive to take care of the little critter critters. All you're your incentives are to keep it quiet. Absolutely. I that nobody wants to have an endangered species on their property. The cost is too high. And the cost being the fact that you are totally paralyzed. Okay. Stay on the line. Uh we're going to be hearing from you some more in just a little bit. Uh right now I want to shift over and go to Mike Buck. Mike is the administrator of the Division of Forestry and Wildlife with the State Department of Land and Natural Resources here in Hawaii. Mike, I kind of picture you as as being in the middle uh if it's as simple as to have environmentalists on one end and land owners on the other. And I I doubt that it's that simple, but I picture you in the middle. Good morning. Good morning.

[00:06:43] Michael Buck: Good morning, Randy. Thank you. Well, as a perspective of a land manager and a regulator, I need to tell your listeners that the current status quo is just unacceptable. We're going to continue to lose species. Our public agency is underfunded, not able to do it what it needs to do on public lands. Private landowners are are alienated. The only time you hear about an endangered species is some sort of controversial issue. And if people are fighting with each other, we're not going to get down to the recovery efforts. I think my article really focused on there's a difference between protection, which I would not want to weaken our law and recovery. And I think we need to get into recovery mode and our current endangered species law does not allow us some of the flexibility we're going to have to have to recover endangered species, especially on private lands.

[00:07:45] Randall Roth: And and your article begins by pointing out that nearly 75% of the nation's historically documented plant and bird extinctions are from Hawaii and many more Hawaiian species are on the brink. So in a way, we are the endangered species capital of the world?

[00:08:01] Michael Buck: Oh, no doubt with our isolated geographic uh position in the world. But again, that is also a positive. We have very unique endangered species and we should be proud of them because they are a unique part of our Hawaiian lifestyle.

[00:08:15] Randall Roth: And as I read your article, some of the thoughts that that I came away with are, one, we've we've got to be a bit more realistic about this than maybe we have been in the past, and we need to figure out a way to work together better?

[00:08:27] Michael Buck: Yeah, and I think a a real simple, real life situation is we have endangered birds that are ready to be reintroduced in the wild. We have endangered plants in the nursery that are ready to come and be put in the wild, and we need to provide some sort of level of certainty so private land owners would allow that to happen because over half of the uh essential habitat in this state is owned by private land owners.

[00:08:51] Randall Roth: Okay. Mike, stay on the line. We want to hear from you some more later on in the hour. That was Mike Buck, who's the uh head of the Division of Forestry and Wildlife in the State Department of Land and Natural Resources here in Hawaii. Well, next up is Paul Aoki, who is a lawyer, a partner with the law firm of Ashford and Riston, and he represented the Mcandles Ranch, which is uh Sinny Saley's operation, and he also represented the Kai Molino Ranch in cases involving the Endangered Species Act. Paul, good morning.

[00:09:20] Paul S. Aoki: Good morning, Randy.

[00:09:21] Randall Roth: Uh read your piece in the paper this morning. Uh what would you describe as as the primary theme that you were hoping to uh develop?

[00:09:30] Paul S. Aoki: Uh I I think [unintelligible — audio glitch] very similar to what um uh everybody else has already said, and that is is that um the the current law which uh focuses, I think, too much on litigation uh is not going to, in the long run, uh help save endangered species. Uh you know, as a lawyer that does litigation, I shouldn't be saying this maybe, but um lawsuits help resolve some types of disputes, but they don't necessarily incor uh encourage uh a lot of cooperation uh among people who are not already in lawsuits and and really that's what you need.

[00:10:18] Randall Roth: Well, when you hear Marjorie Ziegler, for example, say that that the Hawaii law should be um made clear that that citizens can bring lawsuits to protect endangered species, you would disagree with that?

[00:10:31] Paul S. Aoki: Yes, I I think I would disagree with that based on the experience uh with the um Canless Ranch. Uh I think that was an example of a situation where everybody involved, you know, I I I believe that the um the environmentalists had had the best interest of the bird at heart. Um but I know that the land owners also did. Litigation really did not help to solve that problem. It was only when we got into um uh a non-litigation mode that we actually made some progress.

[00:11:02] Randall Roth: And and you thought that the money that was spent on the litigation uh should have been spent on protecting endangered species? I think I read that in your piece this morning.

[00:11:10] Paul S. Aoki: Yeah, it seems to me that there's a limited amount of resources available for this and uh to the extent that you waste them um fighting lawsuits uh you you're not going to have those resources to um uh acquire land, um pay people to maintain the land, to keep out um uh you know, species uh that you don't want, that compete with the endangered species, things like that.

[00:11:39] Randall Roth: Okay. Paul, stay on the line. We hope to hear from you uh some more later in the show. That was Paul Aoki, a lawyer with Ashford and Riston. Uh he represented the Mcandles Ranch and the Kai Molino Ranch in cases involving the Endangered Species Act. Well, last on our lineup of of guests this morning is Linda Paul. Linda is an attorney, a biologist and currently is president of the Hawaii Audobon Society. Good morning, Linda.

[00:12:04] Paul S. Aoki: Good morning.

[00:12:05] Randall Roth: Well, you've heard uh from four others, and I know you've got uh a lot of thoughts on all of this. What do you think?

[00:12:13] Paul S. Aoki: Oh, well, I'd like to back up a little and go back to uh incentives to have uh private uh land land owners uh work with the public in preserving both uh endangered species and ecosystem. I do agree that uh there are not enough incentives for private land owners to participate in this process. um While a lot of us think of endangered species and and wildlife areas as being public land, in fact, most of our ecosystems and most of our species are found on private land. And unless we solve this problem, we're not going to succeed in preserving that which both the state and the federal endangered species legislation wants to preserve. um In terms of land owners, I thoroughly agree with uh with what previous speakers have said in terms that there ought um to be tax incentives so that land owners are encouraged to keep uh essentially wild areas wild and keep ecosystems intact. They should the land uh tax incentives should not be pushing towards development.

[00:13:21] Paul S. Aoki: uh In terms of certainty and critical habitat, um the Endangered Species Act, the federal one, was in fact designed to give some certainty. Whether it has actually done that or not is of course debatable. Uh the process of listing species that are endangered is supposed to immediately trigger the designation of critical habitat. The designation of critical habitat per se does not limit development. What it does do among other things, however, is give uh developers some certainty and it does that by alerting them to the fact that this particular area is a sensitive area. And if they have a choice in terms of areas to develop, they probably should steer away from that because there is a a larger likelihood that sometime down the line, actions that they may take on portions of that habitat may affect endangered species and therefore trigger certain enforcement actions that are built into the uh act.

[00:14:26] Randall Roth: So the the incentive uh is for them to to not violate the act if there's good enforcement.

[00:14:33] Paul S. Aoki: The incentive is to essentially develop wisely to choose areas that will not cause more and more ecosystems to go extinct. And as we all have been learning in the newspapers and otherwise, that the uh it's not just Hawaii but all over the world that we are losing species at an unprecedented rate, and as we all know from some medical breakthroughs, somewhere down the line, some of these species may have some some important uh im impacts on human existence.

[00:15:07] Randall Roth: Let me ask you, is is it correct to say that our five guests this morning agree that the current law and enforcement of the current law is lacking and that change is needed. It's just that different voices this morning are saying the change needs to go in in one direction as opposed to another. You're not in agreement as to what the changes should be, but is there agreement that current law isn't working as well as it should and current enforcement of the law isn't working as well as it should?

[00:15:40] Paul S. Aoki: Sounds like.

[00:15:41] Randall Roth: That's that's the impression I have. Okay. Thank you, Linda. Stay on the line if you can. I appreciate uh your calling us in calling in from the mainland this morning. Uh this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about endangered species. We'd like to hear from as many of our listeners as we can during the next half hour or so. Our phone number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. If you tuned in a little bit late, would like to hear the show in its entirety, tonight at 8 o'clock on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, you can do just that. Our first caller is Sharon from Waikiki. Good morning, Sharon.

[00:16:21] Cynthia Salley: Good morning. I wanted someone to please explain why we need to save endangered species whether these rare species are human, plant or animal and how it impacts people living in this state?

[00:16:40] Randall Roth: That's a that's a great question. Marjorie, are you up to that? There are some people like uh Sharon and me who uh don't want to take it just on faith that um that there is a reason why, why do we make such effort and put so much resources into protecting endangered species?

[00:16:57] Marjorie Ziegler: That's a good question. I think there are many reasons and and they differ depending on on who you're talking to. I think for me it's really important for the people of Hawaii to have the experience of seeing these plants and animals in the wild. I've enjoyed going in the forest and learning about endangered plants and seeing some of the birds, and I believe that our children and our children's children have the right to live in a world where the birds that they see are birds that are unique to Hawaii. They're not just birds that you can see in California, but they are in fact Hawaiian birds. Um there are many arguments for saving species because they are helpful to humans. Um I think there's been a lot of news about plants, for example, that contain elements or chemicals that have helped people, a lot of our pharmaceuticals are derived from plants.

[00:18:16] Marjorie Ziegler: I just read this was so interesting. I read that um a plant that was later destroyed and has not been found in Malaysia which is related to our kamani. It's the same genus as our kamani tree in Hawaii, uh had promising um I think they were testing and had promising results for cures or at least um medicines for for um HIV and and um diseases that affect our immune system. There of course is the U tree in Pacific Northwest, which you're familiar with, which helps women who have ovarian and breast cancer and and many of the Hawaiian plants have not been tested yet for these medicinal values. So I think that's one reason and then finally, the plants and animals are part of the public trust. They are part of the Hawaiian culture and I think that is our responsibility to protect these resources for the future.

[00:18:45] Randall Roth: Sharon, stay on the line. I want to come back to you in just a moment, but Cindy Saley, um Sinny Saley, I believe you're you're still there on the line. Yeah, I'm having a very difficult time hearing the people on the phone. The other people on the phone. that uh that we will try to protect endangered species. And I believe you just heard Marjorie's response. Part of your article this morning, you talk about uh an old dilemma, the idealistic versus the practical. You say put as plainly as possible. It's the we should go to any length as long as someone else pays for it argument versus the let them die out naturally theory.

[00:19:23] Marjorie Ziegler: Right.

[00:19:23] Randall Roth: Do you have some thoughts on what Sharon has asked and what Marjorie thus far has responded to?

[00:19:29] Marjorie Ziegler: Well, speaking about the dilemma, I guess I guess to a degree, my dog's not in that fight. However, you know, I think basically, um, what's worrisome about about these species that are dying out is that is this a precursor to what what we're doing to ourselves. Um, you know, mankind is also part of part of the environment and because we're at a higher level, um, doesn't mean that we all we ourselves are not being affected. So

[00:20:01] Randall Roth: You're you're

[00:20:02] Marjorie Ziegler: You know, I I guess it gets much deeper. Everything is so interconnected um in the world and in our environment that when you see part of it dying away, uh it should send up red flags and alarm us.

[00:20:16] Randall Roth: Okay. Sharon, what do you think of those responses?

[00:20:20] Speaker 1:Sharon: I think that hearing about the interrelationship of the plants and the animals and human beings is seems to be the thrust of what's important about protecting rare species. Um and also the fact that if we don't retain their genes in the gene pools, that the possibilities for developments of other species which can, for example, be plants with helpful helpful medicinal purposes can be lost. So from what I heard, there's an interrelationship between human beings and the endangered species of plants and animals, perhaps insects.

[00:21:01] Randall Roth: Okay, so it responded to your question.

[00:21:03] Speaker 1:Sharon: Yes.

[00:21:03] Randall Roth: All right. Well, that's our number one goal. Thank you very much, Sharon. Let's go to Thomas on a cell phone. Good morning, Thomas.

[00:21:09] Speaker 1:Thomas: Aloha. How are you today?

[00:21:11] Randall Roth: Ooh, tone it down just a little bit. Good morning. Good morning, Thomas.

[00:21:14] Speaker 1:Thomas: Okay, there you are. Okay. Um, I am the president of Mauna Ala. We're an outdoor adventure club. Some of our listeners may have seen us. We have a let's go hiking show Fridays on Alalo at 6:30 and uh normally of course, I'd be tucked in bed continuing to sleep, but this morning we have a hike scheduled and I happen to turn on the radio and there you are talking about a subject that's very dear to our hearts. The uh endangered species, not only plants and animals and insects, but just about everything you can imagine. And we see the the tragedy of, you know, overdevelopment and the destruction of natural habitats, pretty much every weekend when we go hiking. My concern would be that in all of this is wonderful, but the point is most people, uh don't know about it.

[00:21:57] Speaker 1:Thomas: There's probably a lot of people that are doing other things this Sunday morning, that are not listening to this show, and really ought to be and I think that education is the key, because the only way to perpetuate is the protection of, you know, indigenous and endemic species and endangered species. The only way to do this is to educate people and I think that's probably the most critical thing that we can do, and I would like to compliment you on your show on the topic this morning because it's a big step in the right direction.

[00:22:05] Randall Roth: Okay.

[00:22:05] Speaker 1:Thomas: What's being done to educate people? That's what I'd like to know.

[00:22:08] Randall Roth: Okay, well, let's take that as a rhetorical question, and Thomas, we really appreciate your calling in this morning.

[00:22:14] Speaker 1:Thomas: Thank you.

[00:22:15] Randall Roth: You bet. Let's go to, and is it Norval in Palolo Valley?

[00:22:20] Cynthia Salley: Norval, yes.

[00:22:21] Randall Roth: Norval. Okay. I can't read my wife's handwriting. Good morning, Norval.

[00:22:25] Cynthia Salley: Good morning.

[00:22:26] Randall Roth: You're on the air.

[00:22:28] Cynthia Salley: Oh, yes. So I think uh we're overlooking um the general aspect of the problem. We are going into um the problem itself, and we're not looking at um why uh these things are happening. Uh, first of all, um I wouldn't be look listening to the program if I had, you know, I'm not doing an interview in school. And the thing is, is that um majority of the poor people, uh uh never um get into really the aspects of the environment because they are we're you know, every city is all clustered up on top of each other. Uh, when you speak of development, you speak of money, you speak of people that are that are making a substantial amount of money that can produce into outlet and to to get um uh projects going and and and developments.

[00:23:34] Cynthia Salley: And this enables the uh the poor people that are clustered in the cities, they don't have any sort of occupation toward um the endangered species. In other words, there are the jobs are clustered right in the cities and and they are right up on top of each other.

[00:23:51] Randall Roth: Norval, you're going to have to get to your point real quickly.

[00:23:54] Cynthia Salley: Yes, uh my point is um um get everyone involved, that's the basic bottom line.

[00:24:02] Randall Roth: Okay. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um Marjorie Ziegler here in the the studio, Marjorie is resource analyst with the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund here in Hawaii. Uh Marjorie, sometimes people point out, and I know Paul Ooki in his article this morning pointed out one situation where it cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per fly that was protected in a in a particular situation. Sometimes it's suggested that we really should do a cost-benefit analysis. We should try to figure out the cost of product protecting a particular endangered species and the benefit of doing so. What's your reaction to those folks?

[00:24:42] Marjorie Ziegler: I think there are two thoughts on cost-benefit analysis when it comes to environmental protection. My feeling is that you can never put a dollar value on many of the benefits that we derive from protecting the environment, including endangered species and their habitats. And therefore uh either environmental protection will always lose when compared to the highest value of of land that some landowner could realize if if all laws were disregarded. And the other feeling is that environmental protection would always win because there are in, I think, intangibles that again, you can't put a dollar figure on them, but they are so important such as our health. Who can put a dollar figure on on giving birth to a healthy child that does not have diseases or is not uh disable in some way because of environmental pollution? You you can't put a dollar figure on that.

[00:25:35] Marjorie Ziegler: You can't put a dollar figure on the the joy that you feel when you're in a native forest and you actually get to see um an endangered forest bird for the first time. Um that is not to say, however, that that endangered species and environmental protection does not have do not have economic benefits in our society. I think there are many economic benefits. I think Hawaii is just starting to realize the economic benefit of things such as ecotourism and outdoor recreation.

[00:26:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go Randy, may I add something to that? Yeah, this is Cinnie Saley on the mainland. Cinnie, go ahead. I guess I look at it as to where the dollar can do the most benefit. Um I look at the way that we're enforcing the Endangered Species Act or or or working under it and think, you know, number one, we're not getting in there soon enough. This money, instead of spending the $3 million on six flies or whatever whatever those figures were, wouldn't that $6 million be better utilized, it's a matter of priorities, I guess, be better utilized by going in on a and using it on a species that has more chance, more hope, more help?

[00:26:50] Randall Roth: Aren't we going to be able to utilize our money that we have and that can be spent for this much better and much more efficiently if we get in there earlier? Okay. And some some prioritization, Cinnie, is that what you're saying rather than trying to save any and all? Okay. Let's go to Priscilla in Oh, we lost Priscilla in Aina Haina. Well, let's uh check back with uh let's see, next on the line is Chuck from Maui. Good morning, Chuck.

[00:27:18] Michael Buck: Good morning.

[00:27:19] Randall Roth: You're on the air.

[00:27:20] Michael Buck: Okay. My question is really for uh Mr. Buck. Is the Fish and Wildlife service or uh mandated to actually protect endangered species even if they're on private land?

[00:27:31] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, that's a good question and so our listeners know, we've got a whole lot of voices this morning. One of them is Mike Buck, who is the head of the division of forestry and wildlife for the State Department of Land and Natural Resources. Mike, if everything works properly, you're on the line right now. Mike Buck on line two? Okay. Hey, we did it. We've got so many people on so many lines, you can't believe it. Go ahead, Mike. See if you can answer Chuck from Maui.

[00:27:58] Michael Buck: Okay, Chuck. The uh it gets a little technical but the state does have a mandate to prevent the the take of any endangered species on private lands. Uh, one of the issues in Hawaii that is still a little vague is the public ownership of the actual resource. So we don't have an ability to go onto private land unless we have some sort of evidence or some sort of uh uh hint that there is some sort of take or destruction of endangered species.

[00:28:33] Randall Roth: Mike, how do you get that if it's private land?

[00:28:36] Michael Buck: Well, I think that's one of the issues we're dealing with is trying to get cooperation of the private land owners, so they are able to work with public agencies. And one of my concerns right now in Hawaii, that as many private land owners because of the rigidity of the law just shut the door and don't allow anybody on. And that makes it very hard to work in cooperation, much less understand what is happening with with the endangered species on private land.

[00:29:05] Randall Roth: Yeah, if you need for them to invite you on to their land and they have every incentive in the world not to, and no incentive to invite you onto their land, it it seems to me you're probably not going to be invited on very often.

[00:29:19] Michael Buck: Oh, yeah. And a lot of it is just really building up some trust with with key staff and some of the land owners. But, uh because we're a public agency, if we get involved, then, uh there are freedom of information acts and things. So that's why I think one of the really needed aspects is how can we work with private land owners who voluntarily cooperate to allow us to work with them to save endangered species.

[00:29:44] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let me get a quick reaction to that from Cinnie Saley, who is the general partner of the McCannless Ranch. Cinnie, quick reaction to that and then we need to move on. Well, I think Mike has really hit it on the head. I mean, not only are we not likely to invite them on, the chances are that we won't, because inviting them on would, um, would lead to a tremendous threat. the previous you felt that you were doing an excellent job of the protecting the Alala, the the last block of the Hawaiian crow, and in fact, you kind of felt that once the biologists were allowed onto your land, that that the crows were not in as good a shape.

[00:30:32] Randall Roth: Oh, absolutely. You know, I I feel that um and the the jury is very definitely still out, and will be out for a long time on on the whole program. They've got a uh somewhat successful baby factory going. But that's a I mean, it's very limited. Um however, uh of the 12 wild birds that it has taken 10 years to get from 9 to 12. Um the first three years they were there, more than half of them died, what after the intensive manipulation, and it's very difficult for me to believe that human intervention wasn't a very strong part of that. So you're saying that that one, as a land owner who wants to protect the value of your land, there's an incentive not to let the folks from DLNR onto your land, but also as somebody who very much wants to protect the endangered species on your land, you're saying that sometimes you might feel an incentive to to do it yourself as opposed to to let the regulators onto your land.

[00:31:38] Randall Roth: Oh, very definitely. You know, I um Randy, I will put up our land, we have been conservationist throughout the years, our family has been. I will put up our land against anything else in the Kona area, um as far as being pristine uh forest. Uh, native forest. Um so I guess I really resent it when somebody comes um and tells me, we are the prototype in effect. So I resent it when somebody comes and tells me that I should be doing something else, when in fact there is no prototype out there that's any better. Okay. Well, Cinnie, we're not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I I've got I I've got I've got Linda Paul on another line and Linda's president of the Audobon Society, which uh is the group that sued the McCannless Ranch. Uh Linda, I'll bet you've got a different perspective on this. Linda Paul?

[00:32:17] Paul S. Aoki: I actually, I do. Um I'd like to actually go back to 1982. In 1982, the Fish and Wildlife Service actually drafted a recovery plan for the endangered Hawaiian crow. And at that time the uh service estimated that there were 78 crow on the original McCannless Ranch before it was subdivided. In the succeeding 10 years, that 78 population of 78 dropped down to 11.

[00:33:04] Randall Roth: Excuse me, those figures are wrong. 78 in all of Kona the reason it was in private land and they felt they didn't have the right to go on private land.

[00:33:12] Paul S. Aoki: Our suit was essentially a suit to say they had to go on private land to protect this crow. Um, I do respect Cinnie's feelings about uh her pristine uh landscape, however, in fact, there are many aspects of that landscape which threaten the crow, which are are due to no fault of her own, but which need to be controlled. For example, when the service finally did go on her property as a result of a very generous settlement agreement, it was discovered that the one of the major reasons for the decline in the crow were rats that were actually crawling up the trees and taking eggs and chicks out of nests. And that was only discovered because the service set up blinds to view the nest.

[00:38:00] Paul S. Aoki: and intrusively and observed this. Uh in addition we have in Hawaii things like avian malaria which have just devastated our forest bird populations and that too is not something that the land owners really can protect or help with, it takes biologists to handle that problem. So it's it's not um it's not enough to say I've set aside this land and um everything will be just fine, thank you and the biologists don't need to come on the property. In fact we really need to know what's going on with each one of these species and it takes some research to know that.

[00:38:36] Randall Roth: Okay, Linda, we're going to come back to you again, and Cindy, I know you've got more to say too, we're going to

[00:38:41] Cynthia Salley: Yeah, I'd like I'd like definitely to refute um what Linda said whether that there were 78 crows on on McCandless property in 82, that's not true, there were there were nine and this is from the state's own count. There were 70 75 actually in all of Kona. In all of Kona, from Puu WaaWaa all the way through Iihap.

[00:39:01] Randall Roth: Okay, um

[00:39:02] Cynthia Salley: Okay now, 10 years later the ones that had continued to be studied because at that point I had shut the door um and said, hey, these birds need to be left alone. 10 years later, the only ones left were the ones on McCandless.

[00:39:18] Randall Roth: Okay, by shut the door you kept people off your property?

[00:39:21] Cynthia Salley: I kept the the people who they've been studying these birds for 30 years and I said, hey, you've got to stop here because I just don't think that what's happening is helping them. And the last So, you continued to do your research on the other 60 whatever that were outside of McCandless, but the nine that are here need to stay. 10 years later, the only ones left and by that time they had gone from 9 to 11 and then one more with made it 12.

[00:39:49] Randall Roth: Okay. Cindy, Also, um can I say one more thing, Randy? One more thing.

[00:39:54] Cynthia Salley: Okay. Um, rats have been known to be predators all along. Mosquitoes, diseases are are the main cause of of the demise of the Alala, but with the avian um avian diseases that they they have carried. Um, these things have always been a factor. The only thing that was new with these birds in a since 92, and actually since the manipulation since 93, was human intervention. And that's when the population went from 12 down to 5.

[00:40:29] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Cindy, I know you've got even more you'd like to say on that and Linda, Paul, we're going to hear from you again a little bit later in the hour. A quick comment by Marjorie Ziegler here in the studio, and then we want to get to our callers who've been waiting very patiently.

[00:40:41] Marjorie Ziegler: Marjorie? Thank you. Um just, yeah, again, a real quick comment in relation to the Alala lawsuit. I think it's important for people to understand that some of us believe that these endangered species do not belong to the land owners by virtue of the fact that someone had paid um some money for this land or otherwise acquired this land. These these are resources that belong to everyone and that brings up the importance of relying on the expert biologist. The expert biologist said that we needed to go on to the property and supplement the wild flock and the captively bred flock at at Maui, you know, at at Olinda. And in fact, as part of the settlement of the Alala lawsuit, we had an an incredible study done by the National Academy of Sciences, which in fact supported the biologist's recommendations that these flocks be supplemented by, you know, taking eggs or chicks out of the wild.

[00:41:32] Marjorie Ziegler: So I think some very positive things have come out of this settlement, unfortunately, I don't think the biologists who would have been allowed to go onto the property to save this endangered bird if it had not been for citizens' actions to force them to do so, to force the federal government to recover the bird.

[00:41:49] Randall Roth: Okay, well you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth, we're talking about endangered species here in Hawaii. We've had a number of voices this morning, our guests are Paul Aoki who is a partner with a law firm, he's represented several ranches in cases involving Endangered Species Act. Cindy Saley who is the general the general partner of the McCandless Ranch, Linda Paul, who's an attorney, biologist and president of the Hawaii Auduban Society, Marjorie Ziegler who's a resource analyst with the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund and Mike Buck, who heads up the division of Forestry and Wildlife with the State Department of Land and Natural Resources. If you would like to um call in and ask a com or ask a question or make a comment and my wife is raising our hands because we've got so many lines taken up with guests, that we only have two open ones for callers, but I think they'll be open again in just a moment.

[00:42:42] Randall Roth: Our number is 955-8821 or on a Neighbor Island 1-800-955-8821. Priscilla from Aina Haina, you've been very patient, good morning.

[00:42:52] Caller: Oh, good morning. Thank you very much. Um, I'd like to answer the question um the caller had about the education in about Hawaiian biology. Um, I'm from the mainland about seven years ago and I came here and now I'm a professor at Leeward Community College, I teach Botany there. And um that's been a real big concern that we do need um more education about our special Hawaiian um biological heritage. I know that there's been a wonderful project with Lauren Gill and others um, True MacArthur Foundation, a grant and Bishop Museum, um, providing what's called the Ohia Project for the lower grades in public schools. I believe he told me at one time he tried to try to work through the legislators and found that he couldn't get anywhere and he decided he had to start training the voters for grade one.

[00:43:44] Caller: Um, also I teach a course called Botany 130 Plants in Hawaiian Environment and I've had the opportunity to teach it on television which is a a lot of work and a big challenge, but my main motivation is to um help people learn about the plants I find that the students are very enthusiastic, very amazed at what is here, having, you know, very little exposure to it. They think everything around them is Hawaiian and when they find out about 99.9% of everything they see every day is not native, they are very surprised. Um, and so I think that that our schools really need um more support. For example, my courses and others could go to other islands um, by telecourse if we had more money right now, money is one of the big reasons we can't have more outreach.

[00:44:32] Randall Roth: Okay.

[00:44:33] Caller: Um, and one other problem, I know Mike Buck knows about this too, and he's understanding and we've talked and others, but there's a real problem with our our law protecting native plants that are endangered. Um, many of us who are serious conservationists or um teachers need the resources of growing these plants if we get the endangered plant seeds from existing, you know, cultivated sources, not of course going out in the wild and getting them, but we're blocked by that by the state law and it was almost changed this summer in the last minute. Um, Governor Cayetano vetoed it and um, it's really a tremendous loss right now. We have someone at Lyon Arboretum producing hundreds

[00:45:11] Randall Roth: Priscilla, we're going to we we've got to move on. We got a bunch of people who've been waiting.

[00:45:15] Caller: I really appreciate your call this morning.

[00:45:17] Randall Roth: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:45:18] Caller: Bye-bye.

[00:45:19] Randall Roth: We go to Linda at Barber's Point. Good morning, Linda.

[00:45:22] Speaker 2:Linda: Good morning. I'm calling to give a real-life example and asking your panel to comment on it. I represent a coalition of business and private residents that is trying to protect an endangered plant, Acanthos splendendis, which is out in the Barber's Point Campbell Industrial Park area. Uh, the plant was designated endangered in 1986, but the Department of Interior never identified any critical habitat. We've asked for critical habitat to be identified, it has not. There's a lot where it can be relocated, this plant could be relocated, but it involves it belongs to Campbell Industrial Park. And of all things, they want to put a sewage sludge plant on that lot. And uh short of taking legal action, we're trying to find out what else could be done to try and save this plant and save this potential habitat.

[00:46:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Any suggestions? Let's get a reaction first from Marjorie Ziegler, and then I'm going to go to Paul Aoki, whom we haven't heard from for a while. Marjorie Ziegler.

[00:46:16] Marjorie Ziegler: Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that this group is interested in getting critical habitat designated for Achyranths out at Barber's. Um, just one quick comment on critical habitat. The federal law requires critical habitat to be designated when any plant or or animal is listed as threatened or endangered. There are a lot of there are a lot of myths about critical habitat and a lot of misinformation. Critical habitat only helps us protect habitats when federal agencies are involved. In the case of the sewage plant, that may be a factor, there there might be some federal funds involved there, but um critical habitat designation does not affect private landowners in their actions unless again the feds are involved.

[00:46:53] Marjorie Ziegler: We also have been asking the service to designate critical habitat for many of our endangered plants, specifically 180 or so that were listed pursuant to a lawsuit that we filed earlier, and the federal position is to refuse to designate critical habitat for Hawaiian plants and this is in violation of the law and I think it is not good for the plants that are threatened by federal actions such as military live-fire training at Pohakuloa, Makua Valley. There is some infrastructure that would be funded by the feds in Kona. I think critical habitat will help us greatly in these areas and yet the federal government refuses to do so.

[00:47:30] Randall Roth: Okay. Let's hear from Paul Aoki, who's an attorney with Ashford and Riston.

[00:47:33] Paul S. Aoki: Paul, we haven't heard from you for a while, a reaction either to Linda's question or anything else you've heard for the last 45 minutes. Well, uh first, um responding to Linda's question. Um, I think that part of the problem is um that the options that you have for doing something like relocating are are limited um by the the current law. Um, uh, you know, it seems to me that um, the state probably has land that you could relocate that uh plant to. Um, you know, it it's a matter of of of opening things up so that you can do that kind of thing. Uh, I don't think it's a lack of availability of land to relocate it to.

[00:48:20] Paul S. Aoki: I think it's the the complicatedness of the process that you have to go through in order to get permission to do it.

[00:48:25] Randall Roth: So the the flaws in the process.

[00:48:28] Paul S. Aoki: [unintelligible — audio glitch] how I see it.

[00:48:30] Randall Roth: Okay. Anything else that you've been listening to over the last 45 minutes you'd like to to comment on?

[00:48:36] Paul S. Aoki: Um, well I, you know, I I I think that uh the other people have have, especially Cindy, have um have presented the the issues pretty good.

[00:48:45] Randall Roth: Okay, great. Paul, thank you very much for being available to us this morning. You're welcome.

[00:48:52] Cynthia Salley: This is Cindy. May may I say something about about this plant, Eva?

[00:48:55] Randall Roth: You if if you make it short.

[00:48:57] Cynthia Salley: I'll make it real quick. You know, it it I it seems to me that what you try to do is to reproduce that plant as quickly as possible and to get it in as many places as you possibly could. And that is not possible. That way, if you get everybody's cooperation, and if a plant dies, don't make people responsible for that, but spread it around as much as you can and get it out there.

[00:49:19] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh, let's go to another caller. Bart from Palolo. Good morning, Bart. Do we have Bart on line three? Uh yes Randy, I'm here. Good morning Bart, you're on the air. Good morning. Um I'm calling more with the comments and Cindy actually addressed partly what my comment would be. But one of the um, I'm involved with the Hawaii Forest Industry Association and I won't go farther into the aims of that group except to say that we seek to make it more friendly to plant trees um, And this is a show that's near and dear to my issues. Um, And one long-range solution to um uh the diminution diminution of natural uh habitat that supports endangered species is to increase that habitat.

[00:50:06] Randall Roth: And um it's one of the cheapest ways to um ensure that there will be, you know, plenty of land to support um you you want to increase the ecosystems that uh are now supporting these endangered species. And um one of the mechanisms um that makes that possible is to manage land and I'm talking specifically right now about lands that are not critical habitat, like um sugar lands and um non-used uh agricultural lands. Um, but um to um make it friendly to people to plant these species um whether it is to encourage them to be able to uh plant mixed forests that will later um include the possibility of uh supporting endangered species such that that they can be then delisted because they're in greater numbers.

[00:51:04] Randall Roth: Bart, let me read from Mike Buck's article in this morning's paper because I think this paragraph is is right on point with what you've raised. Mike Buck writes, for example, a landowner committing to long-term reforestation of native Koa forests will incidentally provide habitat for native birds and probably endangered species. This is a good thing. Yet most landowners will not invest resources to plant or commit to long-term stewardship of native Koa forests if the presence of endangered species prevents them from harvesting any mature trees. Is that at the heart of what you're you're saying that that right now you don't have an incentive to to plant these trees, even though that would be a good thing so far as endangered species is concerned?

[00:51:51] Randall Roth: Yes, I I can only think that I can only hope that um if it were that that I know that landowners are not willing to take the risk um to plant Koa and a a native species um with the thought that they won't be able to harvest it later on. I can only hope though that um if so much Koa were planted that it would greatly increase um the habitat that supports various endangered species that not only would those species be delisted, but you'd also be able to harvest those trees. Win-win, right? Right. Okay. Bart, thank you for your call. We've got three people who have been waiting very patiently and I'm going to for sure get to them and then I want to give our guests an opportunity to sum up their thoughts.

[00:52:33] Randall Roth: Let's go to Paul in Kaaba. Good morning, Paul.

[00:52:37] Paul S. Aoki: Good morning, Randy. I just wanted to make a brief comment on a number of uh statements that I heard during the show regarding the landowner's lack of incentive to protect endangered species and uh their incentive to uh I think I heard at the beginning of the program, their incentive to kill endangered species. And I think it's a it's a good indication of why uh regardless of whatever improvements are made in the laws protecting endangered species, and we'd all like to see improvements if they'll actually lead to better protection, there will always be a need for laws that allow litigation and in fact there's a need for strengthening the laws to allow citizens to initiate litigation.

[00:53:32] Paul S. Aoki: If you have landowners who can find no incentive to protect endangered species other than if it makes money for them, if landowners cannot look at a an animal and feel any incentive to protect that species unless someone puts money in their pocket to do it, there will always be a need for litigation.

[00:53:58] Randall Roth: Okay. Paul, we're going to have to move on because we're running out of time, but I really appreciate your comment this morning. Let's go to Al in Niu Valley. Al, can you keep it tight? I'll keep it tight. I was asked to make it short and sweet. I'd like to hear some comments after I make a comment. Okay. I'm a small landowner, I have a house and a garden and I'm not interested in the money aspects of the of the problem. But there is a problem that hasn't been addressed except for one caller, to which no there were no comments, and that is the growing of endangered species, as well as all native plants, for educational purposes.

[00:54:31] Randall Roth: I've recently uh torn out most of the alien plants in my garden and I've been putting in native plants. But it's ludicrous that I can't plant the state flower because it's on the endangered species, among other endangered species. And I would like to use these for in part for educational purposes. I recently put in a garden at a local school, but again, I cannot put in the endangered species. Now, okay, I want to know, I want to know why the law is the way it is, that I cannot purchase endangered species from a nursery. Thank you. I want to know too. This sounds crazy.

[00:55:02] Marjorie Ziegler: Marjorie Ziegler. It's a good comment. Um, there's currently the law currently allows people to hold permits to have plans for education and propagation purposes. The DLNR has recently promulgated draft rules that would allow uh that would sort of describe the process by which you could get a permit, I could get a permit and grow some of these plants in our yards. Uh, the law the law could even allow the sale of such plants and in fact, there was a law that the legislature passed last session that was in fact vetoed by Governor Cayetano not for reasons concerning the sale of plants but for a deficiency in language that would jeopardize some federal funding at the state level.

[00:55:41] Marjorie Ziegler: So we're on our way. I think Mike Buck can can address this further, but we are on our way to allowing people to grow plants in their yards, purchase them from the gardens with with the proper permits. The problem is we don't want to make it so cumbersome that people can't do it. I want to grow these plants in my yard as well. I just want to point out that to save these species in their habitats, we have to do more than just propagating the plants. If if they're grown in everybody's yard and at schools and in gardens, that will still not help the plants in the wild if we don't protect the habitat in the wild.

[00:56:13] Randall Roth: So it it's not just these the species itself, it's the species in the wild in terms of the ultimate goal.

[00:56:19] Marjorie Ziegler: That's correct. Although it is important to get people growing these species wherever they can and again, I think the rules are going to allow people to do this.

[00:56:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got one other caller who's been waiting a long time. We want to hear from him and then I'm going to go to all of our guests again. Bruce from Kaniyohe, good morning.

[00:56:34] Michael Buck: Good morning. Um I've just got a kind of an overall comment on the whole thing. I think the Endangered Species Act was created when the environment really wasn't understood that well, and I think it's outdated. And I think what we need now is kind of a new law that would protect habitats and eco-ecosystems and preserve them for the future.

[00:56:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Great. Bruce, thank you for your call. Listeners, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. We are talking about endangered species. We are in the last eight minutes or so of the hour, and our guests this morning have been Paul Aoki, who is a partner with Ashford and Rishton, and he is the lawyer who represented the McAndless Ranch and the Kaimolino Ranch in cases involving the endangered species. And then we have four others that we're going to hear from again in just a moment. The first that we will go to, let's go to Mike Buck, who is the administrator of the Division of Forestry and Wildlife in the state Department of Land and Natural Resources. Mike, this is your last swing at it.

[00:57:36] Michael Buck: Okay, Randy, thank you. I just want to tell the listeners, uh, Hawaii's endangered species are some of the most unique organisms in the world. They were here before any of us, and they do have a right to exist. And I really sense there is a common value of that's building up among landowners and government agencies and people who want to protect the environment. So I think no one's trying to weaken the protection part of the law, but we want to be able to strengthen the recovery part of the law. Make a danger species accessible, and people appreciate them, and I would really like to thank Randy for putting on the show and just kind of helping get the word out.

[00:58:12] Randall Roth: Okay, Mike, so that I understand the proposed changes to the law, though are really quite controversial, aren't they?

[00:58:19] Michael Buck: Yeah, and I think one of the controversies is that we haven't had enough people at the table and people agreeing on what they want. So when people go to the legislature, kind of argue, the legislators don't really have an ability to make a tough choice. But I think this year with some of the education, and I think some common shared values, and people are going to share the risk of recovering endangered species. Hopefully, we'll have a law that not only protects species, but encourages responsible recovery of endangered species as well.

[00:58:48] Randall Roth: Okay, Mike, thank you very much. We next go to Linda Paul, who is an attorney, biologist, and currently is president of the Hawaii Auduban Society. Linda, good morning again.

[00:58:59] Paul S. Aoki: Good morning. And I got cut off about your conversation about 15 minutes and missed it. Sorry about that. Oh well, I apologize for that, but we're in the last few minutes of the hour, and you've got an opportunity to say anything that needs to be said that that we haven't heard yet. Great. Uh, just a, uh, one quick comment about education. One of your callers did want to know what's being done. Um, there are a few things that are being done privately. The Hawaii Nature, for example, takes school children out and teaches them about our environment, the Audubon Society has a high school environmental quiz show program. Unfortunately, the funding for the environmental programs in the Department of Education have been cut drastically, and I would encourage everyone to talk to their legislators and get that funding back up. Uh, I think in terms of changing the law, I think one of the thing that both it hasn't, maybe it hasn't been mentioned this morning and should be, in both the federal and state laws is that we need to take cumulative effects uh, into consideration when we look at either whether it's habitat, conservation plans, and mitigation, or whatever. We tend to lose our species in little bits and pieces pieces uh, and land, in little and habitat, in the in the little bit pieces and, and we never really assess the total effect of what we're doing. And finally, in terms of enforcement, I still would like to say a little bit about why, or there is an a citizen suit enforcement provision in the federal act, and that's because, although federal officials are supposed to enforce the act, in many cases, because of political reasons or otherwise, they do not do the enforcement. And Congress realized that this was just a fact of life and that reason it gave citizens the right to behave as public attorneys or private attorney generals, however you want to say that, to, uh, enforce the act, and there is a, uh, what they call a 60-day notice in the act, which essentially a citizen group, such as Audubon, can say, all right, we are going to enforce the act in 60 days by filing suit, unless the federal government does what it's supposed to be doing in the next 60 days. Uh, this, this is absolutely essential to any kind of public oversight just because governments do not always do what the law says they should be doing.

[01:01:13] Randall Roth: Okay, Linda, thank you very much for participating this morning. You're welcome. All right. Well, we go to Ciny Salie. And Ciny, we're just literally down to the last couple of minutes. Um, I'll give you about 45 seconds of that time. Go for it. Well, thank you, Randy. Um, unless there is cooperation and threats are removed, the doors to private land will be closed. Conservation happens on private land after the bills are paid, and it takes money to preserve and conserve. This needs this needs to be thought through. The environmentalists need to realize this, and from that point, perhaps we will be able to come to an accord and the doors can once again be opened.

[01:02:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Ciny, thank you very much for participating this morning. Thank you very much, Randy. Okay, that was Ciny Salie, the general manager of the McAndless Ranch. That's where the last of the Alala, the Hawaiian Crow live. Well, our our fifth guest, and uh, Marjorie, this is your last swing at it. Marjorie Ziggler is a resource analyst with the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund, and that's a a baseball analogy, by the way, what I'm saying, swing at it. Uh, any additional thoughts in the last minute of our show?

[01:02:30] Marjorie Ziegler: Yes, I think one of the things that we didn't have time to talk about unfortunately is the implementation of the state and federal laws on public lands. Quite a few of our endangered species, in fact, almost as many endangered species occur on state land as they do on private land. Um, I'm real interested in, in continuing discussions with Mike Buck and the the Fish and Wildlife service about how well they are implementing the laws on the public lands. These are areas where there is relatively little controversy, there is some among different land users, but again, these are public lands where we could in fact reintroduce species that are propagated in bird, uh, in the bird facilities and in the botanical gardens. And in fact, we have not been able to reintroduce a lot of these species because the same threats that caused their the their endangerment in the first place are still out there on public lands. So, I guess I'd just like to close by saying that we we do need cooperation, but we also need significant funding and a public will to enforce the laws. We have a right to expect the government to implement the laws as Congress intended.

[01:03:34] Randall Roth: Okay, thank you. That was Marjorie Ziggler. The producer of, uh, The Price of Paradise Radio Show is Suzy Roth, our director of operations is Jeff Ilarity. I want to thank Julia Steel, Larry Lau, and Denise Antolini, who were extremely helpful in putting together this morning's show. If you'd like to make a comment on what you've heard, you can call me at 956-7386 and leave that message on the voicemail or talk to me if I'm in, or you can email me at rroth@hawaii.edu. You've been listening to The Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. Aloha.

[01:03:14] Marjorie Ziegler: because the same threats that cause their endangerment in the first place are still out there on public lands. So, I guess I'd just like to close by saying that we we do need cooperation, but we also need significant funding and a public will to enforce the laws. We have a right to expect the government to implement the laws as Congress intended.

[01:03:34] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you. That was Marjorie Ziegler. The producer of The Price of Paradise radio show is Suzy Roth. Our Director of Operations is Jeff Alarity. I want to thank Julia Steel, Larry Lau, and Denise Antolini, who were extremely helpful in putting together this morning's show. If you'd like to make a comment on what you've heard, you can call me at 956-7386 and leave that message on the voicemail or talk to me if I'm in, or you can email me at rroth@hawaii.edu. You've been listening to The Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. Aloha.