Battle of the Titans: Donna Ikeda vs. Sam Slom
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-10-20
Guests: Donna Ikeda (State Senator; Vice President, Grand Pacific Life Insurance Co.); Sam Slom (Executive Director, Small Business Hawaii; 1996 candidate for State Senate)
Duration: 1:05:10

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Ah, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. We're broadcast each Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 a.m. Everyone who works to bring the show to you is a volunteer. We do what we do because we enjoy doing it and also because we believe in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. Our sponsor, the Hawaii Community Foundation, is an organization that encourages grassroot efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. One of the most interesting political races in Hawaii this year is between two well known and colorful individuals, Donna Ikeda and Sam Slom.

[00:00:48] Randall Roth: Each has a reputation for straight talk and strong convictions, and each is here ready to go head to head in a friendly but lively debate on the issues. My job first is to tell a bit about each of them, then describe the format, and finally to stay out of their way. Donna Ikeda was born and raised on Oahu and graduated from University High School and the University of Hawaii at Manoa. She was first elected to the state legislature in 1974 and has served continuously since then. Donna was described in a recent issue of Midweek magazine as quote, the most powerful woman in Hawaii. According to that article, she has a reputation as quote, the Dragon Lady of the Senate, but that friends and colleagues say she has a soft heart and describe her as spiritual.

[00:01:33] Randall Roth: Most recently, she has headed up the Senate Ways and Means Committee and prior to that, its consumer protection committee. Donna has been active in various community organizations and in 1994 received the Henry Toll Fellowship Award for excellence in state government. When the legislature isn't in session, she serves as assistant vice president at Grand Pacific Life Insurance Company. Donna is happiest at home with her family and dogs, but enjoys singing country and western songs in her car and at karaoke parties. She's the proud mother of three adult children and two absolutely adorable grandchildren. Sam Slom was born in Allentown, Pennsylvania, but has lived in Hawaii for 36 years. He's a graduate of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, as well as LaSalle Law School.

[00:02:20] Randall Roth: For three years, he served as assistant director of the Tax Foundation of Hawaii, and then for 14 years as an economist at Bank of Hawaii. Since then, Sam has been a private consulting economist, owns and operates several small businesses, and serves as president and executive director of Small Business Hawaii, a private statewide association of 3,000 small businesses. He's won a variety of awards including a 1990 George Washington Honor Medal for economic education, and the Small Business Administration's 1991 Small Business Advocate of the Year for both Hawaii and the Western Region. A former private pilot, Sam enjoys playing softball and tennis, and coaching youth soccer and baseball. He's married and has two adult children living on the mainland, and two young children, entrepreneurs in training, it says here on his resume, who live at home with him and his wife, Francine.

[00:03:12] Randall Roth: Donna and Sam understand that our listeners didn't tune in to hear campaign speeches. What we're after are clear and concise statements of their positions on the issues, and true engagement with each other. For example, they've been encouraged to ask tough questions of each others. The ground rules are simple. I'll periodically ask one of them to raise an important issue. Then, one of them will have up to 2 minutes to tell us what's right about his or her position, or what's wrong about the other's position, or both. Hopefully, it won't always take the full 2 minutes to do this. Whether or not it does, when that candidate is finished, the other will have up to 1 and a half minutes to respond.

[00:03:53] Randall Roth: Then the floor will be open for an unstructured give and take where simple rules of courtesy will prevail. For example, it's okay to interrupt occasionally, especially if the other is lapsing into a mini speech or dodging a specific question, but it's not okay to interrupt so often or indiscriminately as to be rude. In short, we want lively exchanges, but not ones that deny either candidate a fair chance to weigh in. Finally, I won't hesitate to break in if I think it's necessary to keep the debate on track. Well, with that rather long winded introduction, I declare this debate officially started, and based upon the flip of a coin, ask Donna to toss down the first gauntlet.

[00:04:34] Randall Roth: Donna, it's all yours.

[00:04:36] Donna Ikeda: Thanks, Randy. Well, I think one of the the major issues and concerns of people today is crime. We have had a number of statistics come out and it doesn't look good. Our prisons are overcrowded. Our police need help. Yet, Sam is against gun control. So how the heck can you be against gun control and support what the police are saying is needed in order to to control crime?

[00:05:08] Sam Slom: Okay. Well, the gauntlet has been tossed down and it took much less than 2 minutes, which delights the heck out of me. So do I get 4 minutes, Randy? Is that how that works then?

[00:05:16] Randall Roth: You've got up to a minute and a half to respond.

[00:05:18] Sam Slom: Okay. Well, thank you first of all for the opportunity and thank you Donna for being here. Now the question of crime, of course, is important. I've been walking the district from Waimanalo to Hawaii Kai since May and I was quite surprised, really, I thought that economic issues would be number one or education, but crime is the most important issue. And I think what people have been saying over and over again, they want punishment. They want punishment before rehabilitation. As far as my position on gun control, which has been widely known and very clear for a couple of decades now, what I simply said was, show me a way to take guns away from criminals and I will support gun control.

[00:05:56] Sam Slom: Show me that you're serious about punishing criminals before giving them comfort and giving them special diets and color TVs and I'll support gun control. Show me that gun control works anywhere in the world and I will support gun control. We have very stiff gun control laws here. Most of the crimes that are being committed are not being committed with guns, but the problem is we have a lot of people, particularly juveniles, that have long rap records of 50, 60 offenses and nothing happens to them. We have to, for once, put the problem where it belongs and solve the cause rather than the symptom. And until we do that, peripheral issues like gun control really just skirt, skirt the issue and take our focus away from the real problem.

[00:06:34] Donna Ikeda: Oh, I don't think gun control is peripheral. We have a real problem in the schools. You know, we I've met with students who have come to to the legislature to talk with us, and these are intermediate kids, and they can tell you, kids bring guns to school today, in Hawaii. This is a problem. We have had several deaths due to people being shot and killed, and this is not something that you can put away and set aside lightly. This is a real problem.

[00:07:04] Sam Slom: Well, I don't intend to put it away lightly Senator, but I don't think you're listening. What I'm saying is and what the people of your district are saying is that what we really want to do is when somebody is arrested for rape and convicted, somebody is arrested for domestic abuse and convicted. When somebody is arrested for multiple property crimes and convicted, the taxpayers and the property owners want to see that these people go away, that they're punished. And that's the real issue, and the legislature has failed to do anything about that. And That's not true, Sam.

[00:07:31] Donna Ikeda: That's not true, Sam. You'd like people to believe that, but we have taken steps to incarcerate people. The problem is the crime is growing. There are more criminals loose on the street because of the fact that crime pays. And if you're not going to help the police and take strict measures and take their advice and go against what they're proposing, then you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[00:07:58] Randall Roth: Well, Senator, I've talked with police and at the neighborhood board meetings and other public meetings that they have, they always say the same thing. They get really tired of arresting the same people over and over and over again, and we're not even talking about guns. You keep trying to bring guns into this issue rather than talking specifically about what you did or did not do, or what you will or will not do to put people away and make it a serious, a serious. Let me ask you what you would do, Sam.

[00:08:22] Donna Ikeda: Let me ask you what you would do, Sam. We have expanded prisons. We've put money into the into the system so that we can complete the women's prison. We put money in for infrastructure so that Waiawa can be expanded. We've even put money in so we can send prisoners to Texas to to alleviate the overcrowding.

[00:08:42] Sam Slom: What would you do Sam? Well, you're actually saving money because it's 50% less to send prisoners to Texas and to other places on the mainland. What I said I would do and what the people of this community want done is they want stronger measures and they want punishment. They also want juveniles who commit multiple offenses to be treated as adults. They want them to have a severity of punishment, and nobody is saying that. Certainly, you're not saying that. I don't hear you saying it tonight.

[00:09:05] Donna Ikeda: We don't need to. We have the laws on the books to incarcerate. But we don't enforce them.

[00:09:08] Sam Slom: And the legislature waters them down and that's what the police are concerned about. Oh no, the legislature does not water them down.

[00:09:12] Donna Ikeda: We have taken strong measures. We have passed very strong bills against crime.

[00:09:17] Randall Roth: Then Senator, if if you have done all of those things, why does crime continue to increase? What do you think the reason is?

[00:09:23] Donna Ikeda: Because of the fact that people like you throw out these So, in other words, I'm, I'm the reason that crime is increased? Well, sure.

[00:09:31] Sam Slom: Really? Sure. I mean, come up with solutions. So, in other words, blame the victims, blame the citizens, but don't blame the criminals themselves. It's easy to come out with these kinds of statements. What are you, how are you going to solve it? What's your solution to the problem?

[00:09:48] Randall Roth: Maybe I can talk slower. Donna, I've said it three times now. First of all, is punishment. Secondly is punishment. Thirdly is punishment, and treating juveniles who commit multiple offenses as adults. Making sure that sentences are actually served. A lot of people talk about somebody being served. You make sentences. You actually make people serve their sentences if you have the room to incarcerate them.

[00:10:13] Sam Slom: Well, one of the reasons one of the reasons that we don't have the room is that the legislature has done not done a very good job in terms of of separating crimes, violent crimes from non violent crimes. And if the legislature would have listened to the many, many privatization experts and corrections officials who have come to this state for more than a decade saying that they would build prisons, that they would operate prisons, they would maintain prisons at no taxpayer expense, You haven't listened. You haven't done anything. Oh yes, I've listened. I've listened to these people who have come in.

[00:10:45] Donna Ikeda: You know what they told me Sam? I asked them, how can we help? And they told me, we don't want your help. We don't want state land. We don't want any kind of subsidizing. We want to do it ourselves. That's that's exactly right. That's correct. We want to find the spot, we'll find the land, we'll build a prison, and we'll run it.

[00:11:03] Sam Slom: But what did the legislature do to to make that easy, to make that come about?

[00:11:07] Donna Ikeda: They didn't want us to do a thing. That's what they told me.

[00:11:11] Sam Slom: Oh wait a minute. That's not true. They're not able to do it. Otherwise they wouldn't have even had to come to you.

[00:11:15] Donna Ikeda: No, they came because The legislature holds the power and since you are supported by very powerful labor unions who oppose it and have opposed it publicly.

[00:11:23] Sam Slom: Oh, come on. I think you've made a choice. You've sided with the employee unions. No way. against it.

[00:11:29] Donna Ikeda: No way, I've taken

[00:11:30] Randall Roth: We've gone on. Crime is is the number one topic. Both of you agree and so we've No, we don't agree because Senator Ikeda thinks that the crime problem is because of my my speaking out against her inaction. You agree that crime is the topic that we should talk about first, and so we've talked about it a long time but let's Do I ever get to say something without him interrupting me? I'll tell you what. Go ahead and say something, and then we're going to shift to Sam. He's going to raise a new topic. You get to have the last word on crime. We may come back and hit it again. Say something and then we'll go to Sam for a new topic.

[00:12:04] Donna Ikeda: Well, a lot of accusations have been made and a lot of blame placed on the legislature and yet we have passed very strong laws even this year. We have laws on the books. We put people in prison, and we have done whatever we could to fund and to to plan ahead. Some of the things that happened were restrictions by the administration. But where private private prisons are concerned, I can tell you I've spoken with them, offered them help and they've told me that there's too much red tape they don't want to be bothered with it, they can do it on their own and they will.

[00:12:38] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Sam, you get the first word and the last word on the second topic. What's it going to be?

[00:12:44] Sam Slom: I think it's going to be honesty and integrity in government and the actual record of this legislature of which Mrs. Ikeda is a part of. One of her closest friends, of course, was Milton Holt, whom she many times referred to as the quarterback of the State Senate. Unfortunately, the public and the electorate didn't feel that he was that important, but the quote that he made after the adjourning of the 1996 do nothing session was, quote, if we adjourn with this record, we do not deserve to return to office, unquote. Now, Mrs. Ikeda is spending a great deal of money with fancy brochures and advertising, telling us that she has solved the problem of same sex marriage, that she has solved the problem of High 3, that she has solved the problem of taxes.

[00:13:28] Sam Slom: I want to know if she has solved all these things, why are we still talking about them everyday and why are they still there?

[00:13:34] Randall Roth: Donna, you have up to a minute and a half to respond. Sam says the topic now is honesty and integrity in government.

[00:13:40] Donna Ikeda: Well, Sam likes to take the cheap shot by mentioning Milton Holt. And I have to tell you, it is a cheap shot. Milton Holt was a very able legislator. However, we didn't agree on everything and there were times when I totally took different stands. I voted against the Jimeno nomination as an example. Milton was on the other side, but he was able and he was able to move things through the legislature. Besides that, I was never I was brought up to never turn your back on somebody when they're down. And I think that despite the fact that Milton may have problems, it's not the time to to kick him. If anything, I was brought up to stand by somebody regardless of whether you think they were right or wrong, but to help them along when they're down.

[00:14:32] Donna Ikeda: That's what I did. He says that I've claimed I've solved problems. I haven't solved problems. What I've done, I mean I have solved problems, but in the three things in the three things that he's mentioned, what I've done was clarified my record. Yes, I wrote the bill on High 3 to abolish High 3, and I passed it through the Senate. On same sex marriage, I was one of nine people who had the temerity to to do an unprecedented thing and that was to pull the bill, the Constitutional Amendment which you would have declared that that marriage would be between one man and one woman between to the floor of the Senate for a vote. We got it to the floor. We didn't have the votes to pass it.

[00:15:23] Randall Roth: Okay. That's the minute and a half and Sam as I understand it the topic right now is honesty and integrity in government and High 3 and same sex is raised because I get the impression you feel Donna's ads are misleading. Is that why it relates to honesty integrity in government?

[00:15:38] Sam Slom: Well, I think I think that's part of it, but I think that that uh, when you say that you uh, really believe in getting rid of something like the High 3, for example, if you really did, and if you're the most powerful woman in Hawaii and one of the most powerful people in the Senate, then you get rid of it. The other thing is, uh, I'm sorry that Donna thinks that I'm taking a cheap shot at uh, uh Senator Holt. Uh, it's not a question of not standing by somebody when they're down. It is, however, remembering who you represent. You represent the people of this district and of this state, and the people of this state were very unhappy with a lot of things that past and present politicians have done.

[00:16:24] Sam Slom: Not the least of which is being out of touch and not listening, and I think that's the real thing. The High 3 is a real focal focused point because what it shows is the legislators have taken care of themselves and even when they cut budgets, they cut aid to the disabled, they cut aid to education, they cut aid to economic development. They sure as heck hold on to their own High 3 plum, and that's what people are mad at, and that's not a cheap shot. That's fact.

[00:16:50] Donna Ikeda: I don't listen to my own publicity. I've never declared myself the most powerful woman in this state. If anything, I look at at my position as one of a great responsibility, and I know who I represent. I'm very aware of that. I represent the people from my district and I do it very well. As far as um being out of touch, well, I think Sam likes to use these kinds of words and talk about stuff and and really, um confuse the issue. Sam, what would you do? I'm one person in the legislature. I got the bill through. I wrote it, and it was hard, it was tough, it was fair. It took care of all all of the people present and past.

[00:17:41] Donna Ikeda: Everybody's High 3 would have been abolished. It passed muster. I have a AG's opinion that said it was it was okay. What would you do? You'd be one person in the Senate like me. One vote. You need to convince 12 others to go along with you.

[00:17:56] Randall Roth: Well, let's let's talk about that. First of all, we're going to have a different lineup in the Senate after November 5th. I think the the public is already indicated that September 21st. There are also a number of people that will be forming new coalitions and and new leadership alignments. And so I think things are going to get done in the 1997 legislature. But I think it's it's Well, can you get a bill through? Oh, I I think I can because I can work with people that will. Let's look at the numbers. You were one you were one of 23. Excuse me, Donna. Who's interrupting? Can I finish my sentence, please? Thank you very much. You were one of 23 Democrats out of 25 in the Senate.

[00:18:33] Randall Roth: That's a pretty hefty majority. Your party also controls all but seven members of the 51 member house. Your party controls the state administration and all cabinet positions. You talked about the issue for more than three years and nothing was done. And that really is the bottom line, nothing was done. You didn't accomplish anything, so it's time for people that really can come up with new ideas, real leadership and can form new coalitions.

[00:18:56] Donna Ikeda: Okay, I was one of 23 Democrats. I wrote the bill and you got it through the Senate.

[00:19:01] Sam Slom: You were the head of the committee when it letter finished.

[00:19:03] Donna Ikeda: You're going to be one, if you're lucky, of three Republicans in the Senate. How are you even going to get your bill heard?

[00:19:10] Sam Slom: Well, you know, it's a funny thing. Everybody keeps talking about this, Gee, you're only a minority. Gee, you won't have any power. The power comes from the public. And if the public wants change is made, and if the public gets more involved in the legislative process, then I think they're going to pay more attention to what the legislature does than what they did in the past. They allowed the legislature to do things like high 3, coal wood benches, first class airfare, restoration of the capital. I will be there whether I'm elected or not, I don't know. The bill is heard. I expect you to be there and and look everybody in the eye and and get this thing through. Help me. Well, the top that I'm glad to down. The topic is honesty and integrity in government, Sam in a few seconds you going to have the last word and then we're going to shift over to Donna. A lot of people are very upset. They are frustrated and they've given up on government. They don't think that there's any honest individuals in government. They don't think that the best people run for government. They think that everybody in there is self-serving, that takes care of themselves, is a special interest legislator like Donna Ikeda, that they represent one particular business or industry or labor union and they want changes. Everybody voted for changes in 94 and yet we got no changes. Our economy, the problems, the quality of life are all suffering. It has to be a change in leadership.

[00:20:27] Donna Ikeda: Okay. Well, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I can't believe this. Go Randy. He's called me a special interest legislator. That's not true. I mean, he's throwing out barbs like that. Flat out insults. And I'm supposed to be quiet and let him go on to a next to the next topic. I don't think that's fair at all. Go ahead. Go ahead and say something about it, and then we'll let him respond. Okay. I mean, you know, Sam, let's be fair about this. You call people names and and you make statements like that that have no basis in fact. You twist things and as the Honolulu Weekly pointed out, you have a a very unique way of taking facts and twisting them to suit your argument. That's not the kind of legislator that people want. You talk about honesty and integrity. Show some.

[00:21:12] Sam Slom: I'll show it right now. First of all, the Honolulu Weekly, it wasn't the Honolulu Weekly, it was Bob Reese, the columnist that wrote that about both of us. Um, if you're not a special interest legislator, then I think Money Magazine owes you an apology and maybe you should sue them because they identified you as the person that has single-handedly kept this state, the taxpayers, and auto insurers from reducing premiums. Um, when you talk about me calling people names, Donna, gee whiz, you've called the governor a dictator. Um, you fought with Lieutenant Governor Hirano. You've called the Board of Education names, you've fought with the head of your own party. You used to be a Republican, but fought with them and can't stand them. I think that it's you that has the problem. I get along with everybody. I'm a smiling, happy person and I'll do that in the legislature after November 5th.

[00:21:55] Donna Ikeda: Sam has been around the legislature a long time. He has a long reputation and if he was so amiable and got along with everybody, having been the head of the small business association, he would have been extremely successful and yet, by his own admission, small businesses in terrible shape today, and it isn't just the legislature's fault. It's let's talk about effectiveness here. You know, you can throw barbs like that, but you know when the Money Magazine thing came up, that's something that is totally off the wall. Maybe he should read Worth Magazine and Andrew Tobias's view of what happened on no fault.

[00:22:22] Sam Slom: Sam, you raised this topic so you get the last word. Honesty and integrity in government. Few seconds, and then we're going to move on. Okay. Well, uh Donna certainly is right that uh if I had been more effective or half as powerful as she, then small business would have done much better. I find it interesting now that she's trying to have signs out that says uh that say small business supports Donna or Donna supports small business. The truth of the matter is she supports her own interest. She has not done anything for small business, and that's what people want to see. They want to see that people that work hard, that struggle, that reach in their own pockets and take risks are able to do better than other people.

[00:23:03] Donna Ikeda: Those are not my signs. Those signs are brought by small business people who came out to hold them.

[00:23:11] Sam Slom: Okay. Well, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. I'm here with Sam Slome and Donna Ikeda. They're running against one another for a seat in the state Senate. We're not taking any calls today. We've got too much action right here in the studio, but if you tuned in late and would like to hear the show in its entirety tonight on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, beginning at 8:00, you can hear the show in its entirety. Well, Donna, we've gone through two topics, it's your turn to raise a third topic, you've got up to two minutes to talk about it, go for it.

[00:23:43] Donna Ikeda: Well, topic that's close and near and dear to me is education. And as we all know, recently, there are real problems. Sam talks about cutting costs and cutting government and cutting taxes, and yet education is suffering and needs to be sustained. Not just lower education, but the university as as well. I've tried to do that. I've found $10 million to add to education even though we never raised we never increased the budget in the three years that that I've been chair of the Ways and Means committee. We have held the line on spending, but we were I was able to rearrange things to find money to sustain education. I've also tried to help the university. And we're going to have some real problems unless we can get the kind of support that I'm trying to provide for both higher and lower education. Sam's proposal to cut taxes and everything is fine. How are we going to pay for this all of this?

[00:24:46] Sam Slom: Okay, Sam, the topic is education. You've got up to a minute and a half to respond. Education, of course, is the foundation of the community. We all believe in education and many of us work and do a lot of different volunteer efforts to help education. But um we don't improve our education by having more money and certainly not more taxes because if you take more taxes away from families, then they find it even more difficult to survive in this difficult economy and and society. Um I think that we have seen that the legislature has squandered money. They spend money on a lot of different programs and things that have nothing to do with classroom education. I'm very happy that Donna was able to find $10 million. I wonder where it was. It's kind of like the state never knows even how many public employees they have, and I think that's part of the problem. There's an irresponsibility with the public's money. And that's why we have to make changes and look at people that have business experience and can be effective at reading financial statements. Also, if we're talking about cutting taxes and finding ways of still improving education, we don't have to look any further than Kehei Maui because they are a private developer who had begged the DOE and begged the state for years to allow him to build a school privately, did so. It opened Kehei elementary opened in September, four months ahead of schedule, $2 million under the DOE specs and bids, and it had every modern convenience that it was so lacking in the other schools. So, we can do these things with less money as long as we put the resources where they're intended. And if you talk to any classroom teacher, she or he will give you a long list of things that they have begged for, but that the legislature has ignored.

[00:26:17] Sam Slom: Okay. Well, the topic is education. The floor is open.

[00:26:22] Donna Ikeda: Well, again, simple simple simplistic answers not necessarily factual. Public education is costly. Sam's talking about one success story that has to do with capital improvements. I'm focusing on the budget that goes to the classroom. The money that goes to support the programs and and the people, the teachers and the the and the the students. That's where I'm looking. We yeah, we've taken care of the of the capital improvement part. We passed bills and to make it easier now to make these public-private partnerships or get into them to build schools. But the real problem is finding the money for the additional students that are coming in, finding the money to pay teachers what they deserve. We've got some real problems here, even at the university. University's budget has been cut so much that it's at the point where the university is going to really suffer. We talk about economic development, you won't have economic development if we let this university slip by. We have a world-class university with world-class programs. We are internationally renowned in some areas and yet we're not getting or they're not getting the support that they need. What's Sam going to do about it?

[00:27:48] Sam Slom: First of all, I'm a UH graduate, very proud of it, still very active in the UH alumni association and other UH functions. Donna keeps talking about these things as if there's a third person, somebody else. Donna, you're the key person. You're the one that made these decisions. You're the one that made the cuts. You're the one that approved and advanced these things. You're the one that you're the one that has brought us to the brink. I thought I could finish my answer. I'm sorry. You say that you're Excuse me. Can I Can I finish? And then you'll be. Well, I'm I'm going to try, Donna. See, just like the people in your district, they've tried to get through to you too, and that's why they say you're arrogant because you don't listen, and you don't listen to people's ideas. And what they're telling you is this, we want changes, Donna. We want the teachers to have more money. You want to find some more money, and the high three. How many millions of dollars going to the high three each year? Can you tell us that? No, because I really don't know how many people are are in high three jobs. All I You You never you you you proposed a bill, you never found out how much money is involved and how much could be saved for education? No, no, I'm asking you a question. You're the one that did it. You said that you did it, Donna. How much money does high How much money does high three cost us each year? How much could go into education or other worthwhile projects? That's again How much? That is a separate issue again. How much? You said that I'm simple, but that's a simple question. You You are you are mixing apples and oranges. No, I'm asking you a question. Oh, yeah. You're the head of the way the money from the retirement system is separate from the general fund budget. How much money? Do you have any idea? The money that goes to pay retirement comes from the retirement that is totally separate from the retirement I mean from the general fund budget. The retirement system has more than $200 million How much of that comes from the high three, Donna? They are well healed. This is totally separate. You're confusing the issue, Sam. I'm not confused. I'm asking you a question and you don't apparently have the information. See, when you accuse people of being simplistic, I think that's what the public wants. They want simple, basic answers. You're off the subject. We're talking about education. That's right. And where we we get money from it, and where we get money from those projects and those things that have been wasted in the public sector right now. Well, anyone with common sense would know that if you're going to talk about retirement income, it depends on the individual. We're not talking about retirement income. We're talking about special privilege for special legislators. That's what we're talking about. I tell you what, the topic is education. Uh Donna raised it, so Donna gets the last word. Donna, have your last word and then Sam gets to raise another topic.

[00:34:36] Donna Ikeda: Okay. Well, I'm I really distressed with this because Sam isn't isn't addressing the topic. He isn't addressing the issue. He isn't talking about how we're going to improve education. He's throwing out red herrings. He's using something that like the high three to say that that's going to solve the problem. If we do away with it, that's going to mean enough money to pay for education. I know it won't. I'm not going to give you false figures because I don't I don't work that way. But I can tell you, we have some real problems here and that, you know, talking about all these kinds of things and mixing apples and oranges isn't going to solve them. In order to solve these problems, you've got to really look at them and we've got to be honest about them, and we've got to make an honest effort to come up with a plan for the future. That's what I've been doing. You know, in the three years that I've had this committee, we've cut all of the budgets of of of of all of the departments by 12.3%. The only areas that grew were education, public safety, and and whatever we had to pay in terms of fixed costs. We've cut I'm saying, we've got to find other ways to take care of of our education system or we're going to lose it.

[00:35:55] Sam Slom: Okay. Sam, it's your turn for a new topic, you got up to two minutes to tell us about it. Let's talk about taxes. Donna denigrates my idea of reducing taxes and cutting taxes. Actually, she wants it both ways. She wants to tell people that she supports holding the line on taxes. I support cutting taxes, absolutely. I support more take-home pay for people so that they have more opportunities to make more choices. I support more money in the private sector so that we can create more jobs, more investment opportunities and more choices for our young people after they graduate from our educational institutions. Um Donna has never been an advocate of lowering taxes. She has always talked about increasing taxes before. Uh there have been rallies that were held to protest her tax policies. I really want to know since we are among the top three highest tax states in the union, since her party, at their convention earlier this year, adopted a platform that said, we're not taxing people enough in personal income, and the fact that the tax revenue commission has just recently come out with proposals to reduce taxes, will she in fact now support reduction in taxes or she going to continue to poo poo the idea?

[00:37:07] Donna Ikeda: Okay. I don't like Sam telling people where I stand and and trying to tell people as though he knows what I stand for. He's twisted my record. He said that I've I've never been an advocate for reducing taxes and that isn't true. I have, but I'm also realistic and I'm also practical. In the three years that I've had this committee, we have had to cut more than $500 million out of the budget. This is an unprecedented precedented time. We've had to do it but while still trying to sustain the economy during a slump. That hasn't been easy. Put more money in people's pockets, take home pay, I've done that. I passed a bill that lowered the withholding tax. And sure, maybe it's not thousands of dollars, but it does

[00:38:00] Donna Ikeda: mount to a whole lot more money circulating in in the economy, and that money goes to help small businesses, because if people don't have money to spend, obviously they're not going to buy anything. I think that he's totally tried to skew things and make it appear as though I I support taxes. I've gone against my own party. When they advocate increasing taxes, I've gone the other way. I held the line, I wouldn't I wouldn't eliminate any of the tax credits for the very same reason. We've got to keep money circulating in the economy. Taking those tough stands, going against my party, not supporting some some of the platforms that's that talk about increases taxes has resulted in more than $80 million being left in the economy.

[00:38:46] Sam Slom: Okay, the topic is taxes. We're open for give and take. Well, Donna has been the head of the Ways and Means committee for three years, but she's far too modest because she's been a legislator for 22 years. And I think the record is very clear. It is true that you did author the bill for having lower withholding, but that doesn't reduce anybody's taxes. All that does is lower the amount that's taken out, not the amount that's actually paid. And that's the problem. In Hawaii, if you are a single person and you earn $20,500 per year, you will pay the maximum personal income tax rate of 10%. If you are a family or couple, $40,000 per year. The comparable figures in the state of California, in order to be taxed to 10%, are $106 and $212,000 a year, respectively. So again, the question is, are you denying that we are taxed too much? Are you denying that people are leaving the islands and businesses shutting down because they're over taxed, because that's what they tell you. Are you denying that you have not put forward any real tax reduction measures?

[00:39:47] Donna Ikeda: Yes. And I'll tell you why. You can you can talk, you are denying that you did? Where where are where were the measures that you put forth to reduce taxes? to cut taxes? You can talk about those things. I've been there having to handle all of these problems. And it's easy to talk about cutting taxes. We all want to see taxes go down. I don't think I don't think there's any one of us who wants to pay more taxes. And I mean we all pay it. Let's let's face it. The problem is Sam, where are you going to cut? What taxes are you going to cut? I've looked at it. I'm waiting for the the um tax review Commission's report. I'm hoping that they can come up with some sound recommendations that we can adopt. If businesses are leaving Hawaii or people are leaving Hawaii, it's not just because of the taxes. It's because of a lot of other things. I mean, don't forget, the businesses are having a hard time competing with the big boys that have come into this state, the Walmarts, the Kmarts, the the Y Kellys, the the discount houses and such. You know, the face of of businesses changed. Yes, I support doing things or advocating whatever we can do to help business. That's the reason why I held the line. That's the reason why I kept the money circulating in the economy. When things get better, we can reduce taxes, and we will.

[00:41:15] Sam Slom: Well, you keep saying you held the line and held the line and held the line. As we hold the line, we watch more and more people go bankrupt. We now have led the nation for three consecutive years. We watch more and more people go out of the state. Which taxes are you going to reduce, Sam? First, I'm going to reduce government overall. And what people have told you, they have given you example after example, people like Lower Calapa, people like Mary and Hega, people like Desmond Burn, but you don't listen. And again, here you're saying you're waiting for the tax review commission or somebody else. Donna, you're the head of the committee. Donna, you're the powerful person in the Senate. You're the person in the major party. You are supposed to come up with these initiatives, but I don't think you have any imagination or any vision. And when you say that when things get better, Donna, the only reason that things are lousy now, it's not the economy, stupid. That's not, you know, referring to you, that's a comma stupid. It's the economy, it's the political system that we have here, and the reason that business have left have not been because of the Walmarts, it's the taxes.

[00:42:10] Donna Ikeda: What taxes are you going to cut, Sam? We're going to cut the general excise tax, the personal income tax, and how are you going to pay for education when you do that? How are you going to pay for the prisons when you do that, Sam?

[00:42:23] Sam Slom: Every single parent, every family, every business has had to cut back. They've had to reprioritize. They've had to do without. They've had to restructure. But not our government. Our government has continued to tax more, to spend more, to continue living the way they were, and not listening. That isn't true. You want the people to cut back, but you don't want to cut back yourself. You don't think it applies to you and it does.

[00:42:45] Donna Ikeda: We cut back, Sam. What have you cut back, Donna? We cut back over 12.3% or $180 million in time, the three years that I've been Ways and Means chair. We've cut back all of those departments. I've also proposed consolidating and eliminating departments. I'm one person. I wish I was as powerful as you make me out to be. I mean, if I was, things would be extremely different. I'd be governor. That's what I'd be.

[00:43:10] Sam Slom: The topic is taxes, Sam, you brought it up. You get the last word. Go for it. Okay. Again, people seem to think uh first of all, that if we just had more money, we could solve our problems. We have thrown our money at education for decades, our education is deteriorated. We've thrown our money at crime, and we've got worse crime now than ever before. We've thrown our money in many different projects that were ill-fated from the legislative standpoint and still all we find out is that we've lost money. I think the real problem is that the legislature is confused as to whose money it is. It's the public's money, it's the individual's money, but the government treats it as their money and they treat it very badly. That's why they overspend and waste it.

[00:43:50] Sam Slom: Donna, your turn for a new topic. You've got up to 2 minutes to tell us about your position, or Sam's position or both.

[00:44:00] Donna Ikeda: After all of that, I know it's it's hard to shift and it's hard to give your opponent the last word, but it's your turn to raise a new topic. Oh, I don't know. I I really think that we covered more than I mean, I'm having a hard time keeping him on a specific topic. I want to talk about education, and he's equating education Well, let's go back to education, Donna, I'll be very happy to talk further. and we talk about taxes, and he's talking about something else. I I don't know, I can't keep him on on one subject any any longer. I kind of giving up here. Oh, don't give up. Don't give up, Donna. Not till November 5th, anyway. Don't give up. Well, I mean You want to talk about education. It's your call. I'll be very happy to talk about any aspect of education, the delivery of services, education. Well, tell you what, you go on and on and on about cutting taxes. You're going to cut the GT, you're going to cut you're going to cut the personal income tax. And I asked you a question. How are you going to pay for education? How are you going to sustain the system? How are you going to sustain the University of Hawaii? Where are you going to get the money? We have cut, as I told you, $180 million out of all of the other departments. The only things that we have had to fund, we did fund. Those are fixed costs that we can't touch. We're obligated and we've got to pay them. Among them, welfare, Medicaid, retirement, and the like. What are you going to cut, Sam? of you know, programs for the disabled? And you going to put people out on the street? No, you already did that, Donna, you already cut the programs for the disabled. You took them first.

[00:45:30] Sam Slom: Um, you know, you mentioned this before in a discussion that we had, fixed costs that you can't do anything about them. Um, everybody that is living in Hawaii today must really be laughing at that, because there are no fixed costs that you can't cut. Everybody would like to hold on to things, but as I said earlier, every one of us has had to readjust our lives, except the legislature. You haven't done that. Stop paying for the health benefits for state employees. We're going to cut our contribution to the health cost. We're going to cut Medicaid. Excuse me, Donna. What the what the legislature has to learn how to do. We're not going to take care of the homeless. I mean, Sam, have you taken care wait. Donna, let's look at that again. Have you taken care of the homeless? Have you solved our health problems? Have you improved education? All of the things that you've talked about now are your failures, but you're trying to blame other people for them. So what I'm suggesting is another direction to go, and to let people make more individual choices for themselves and give them more resources for themselves. And when you say that you Meaning what? How are Yeah, how are you going to give people more choices and more resources for themselves? By by prioritizing government and deciding what's the most important. You're governor, your governor Wy Hey, gave us education second to none, and it's outrageous and a shame what happened. If we really want education, if we really believe in education, lower and higher education, as being our number one priority, then that's where all of our emphasis goes. It doesn't go into race tracks, it doesn't go into high three. No, you don't agree with me. Oh, you agree with me. I agree with you, I agree with you wholeheartedly, no. you say that now because it's election time, but that's not how you act, and that's not your record, and you're standing on your record. Well, I'm sorry, but you don't even know my record. You like to tell people that you do. Well, then tell us now, you've got an opportunity now. Tell tell us how I'm wrong. You are wrong. Tell me the problems that you have solved in the areas of education, in the areas of business, in the area of crime, homelessness. Tell me how you've solved them. solving problems is is keeping programs going in this economy and and with this money. Are you going to let me finish, or not? No, ma'am. solving problems. Solving problems. I'd be very happy, too. All right.

[00:47:31] Donna Ikeda: I'm a I'm a slow talker, Sam. I'm not a, you know, I'm not a flim flam man. I think about things and I do things. You you weren't calling me a flim flam man, were you, Donna? Oh no, the same way you weren't calling me stupid. That was comma flim That was a comma. That was uh it was from your president, Mr. Clinton. Donna, you got the floor. Okay. Well, you know, I look at things very seriously, and I think that there has to be a measure of responsibility. You can talk about things, and you can tell people what what you think they want to hear. But when you're sitting and making the decisions, and having to make the hard decisions, you have to do it with a great deal of thought and with the people that you serve in mind. That's what I've tried to do.

[00:48:12] Donna Ikeda: I've looked at education and their budget, and yes, I agree with Sam. I felt that there were areas where they could sustain cuts. So I took that money. I didn't reduce education, however. I took that money and I moved it to the classrooms where it belongs. And that's how I've tried to sustain education. But the problems are getting larger. You know, there might be a teachers strike very soon because they've gone without a contract for two years and two years is too long. I don't blame them for getting impatient. But on the other hand, you know, we have a problem because the economy has been in a slump, we don't have have the funds, and we even though, you know, we we've got all of these problems, we got to find ways to resolve them.

[00:49:04] Donna Ikeda: Sam talks about solving. Yes, it's great if you can solve problems. But the whole system is such that it's not that simple. These are continuing things. You know, when you talk about the homeless, we've made attempts, we've done and I have personally gone into into um areas like Sand Island to to work with people. I know what the problems are like, but it's not static. Nothing is static. There are more people that come into the state, more people that need services. As economy goes down, there are more people that that look for help. So, you know, if everything remained the same, yes, I could say sure Sam, we'll solve it, but they don't.

[00:50:10] Sam Slom: Well, that was Donna's issue, and so we've given her the last word. Sam, your turn. Up to two minutes to tell us about it. Well, I think that uh we both agree that this is a very serious problem. What we disagree with is that uh Donna is letting us believe that this these problems have just gotten worse in the in the very recent past, and they have not. They've festered over the years because of the inaction, the inability, or unwillingness of key legislators to take action and solve problems. And Donna, I'm sorry, but that's what it's all about. It's solving problems. Every parent has to solve a problem. Every business owner has to solve a problem, and it's not always easy and they don't always do the right thing, but they don't have the luxury that the legislators have to say, let's have a two-year study a taxpayer expense. Let's have a blue ribbon panel. They have to make decisions and do it. The problem is the legislators have not been accountable or responsible for what they've done. And you know, it really gripes me when I hear legislators say the economy is in a slump, and then they ignore completely all of the testimony that's been made year after year after year by Betty Tatum of NFIB, by Jim Proctor of the Chamber of Commerce, by the Hawaii Business League, by Small Business Hawaii, by organization after organization. All of the books and the studies and the analyses done by the state auditor. All of these things have been ignored because it's not your priority and you don't understand business. And if business doesn't do well, none of us do well, including education.

[00:51:09] Sam Slom: Donna, your turn uh minute and a half to respond and the issue I guess is solving problems.

[00:51:16] Donna Ikeda: Again, it's easy to talk. I've been there. I've had to handle these problems and I've done under the circumstances the best I could do. Um you know, Sam would like to put the blame on everybody else and and and then say it's your fault, and this has been going on and so on and so forth. It's easy to do that. It's tough to sit in my seat and have to decide how you're going to cut the budget. Whose lives are you going to affect? Where are you going to Whatever we do, we affect somebody. And we have to do it with some thought without so that we don't make things worse. I don't want to see people homeless, I don't want to see people without jobs.

[00:52:07] Donna Ikeda: I think that that would be the worst thing that could happen. I we need to sustain our our education system. I feel that very strongly. We need to set priorities. I agree with that. I have set priorities. My priorities have been education, public safety. We funded those, we've done the best we could. We have not thrown money at the problems, not while I've been Ways and Means chair anyway. We have worked through some very tough times. And you've seen some of the results. People are unhappy. There's no doubt about that. And you know, it's because things are not well, but that's because you know, he can go back and talk about past and everything else. Times are tough everywhere, not just in Hawaii, nationwide, in the world. I mean, we all have problems and we can't simplify things with the kinds of statements that Sam's making. You've got to come up with specifics. I haven't heard specifics, Sam.

[00:53:06] Sam Slom: I don't think you've been listening, Donna. Um you know, and when you say that the problems are nationwide, we see that everywhere else in the country there's improvement, except Hawaii. Every time we pick up the paper, we see that our income is down, we see that unemployment is up. We are now the seventh highest in unemployment. We used to be the lowest in the nation. We see that we're driving people to Las Vegas and to Seattle and Portland. We see that our young people, our best and our brightest are leaving here. They have skills, they have creativity, but they have nothing to do. Um it's really strange to me that you mention that I'm the one that's blaming. Uh I told you earlier, I mean, you're the one that finds fault with the governor. You pass something or do something in the Senate and blame it on the House, and I think that's what people are fed up with. They want you to take your responsibility, because each and every one of us has to take responsibility every day for our children, for our lives, for our businesses, for everything that we do. But the legislature wants to take more of our resources and try to do the things that they haven't accomplished in the first place. So what it really comes down to is when you say you've done the best you can do, I salute you and I congratulate you for what you've done in the past, but I think it's time to move on and we need more people that have better ideas and a real vision for the future and are willing to listen and to change.

[00:54:16] Sam Slom: Tell you what, Sam brought that one up. Let's call that the last word, and Donna, if uh you want to take it in a completely different direction, it's your turn to do so. If you want to say something related to what Sam just said, why you've got that option.

[00:54:28] Donna Ikeda: Well, Sam seems to equate me with the entire legislature. You know, he's not running against the entire legislature, he's running against me. My record is clear. I know what I stand for, I know what I worked on. I know what I've accomplished, and I think the people know that as well. I have held the line on taxes. I've cut that budget. He talked about a $12 billion budget. It's not $12 billion anymore. It's $6 billion for the biennium in general funds. That is a major change. These are times when in the last year Well, two years ago we came in for the first time in history with an ending balance of a minus 1.1% growth. And when you have a negative growth, then obviously there are problems attendant with that. That's the kind of situation that we've had to work with. I've done my best.

[00:55:29] Sam Slom: Sam. Well, I would simply say where did the negative growth come from? It came from past policies, tax and spend policies and waste that was created by the legislature and created by the entrenched leadership in the legislature. You know, everybody is is looking to people to be leaders. And leaders have to make the tough choices and they have to solve problems and that's the bottom line. If you have somebody on the football team and you may like them, and they may be a wonderful person, but if they don't perform, you have to get somebody else. If you have somebody in business and you like them and they're wonderful, or maybe they performed 20 years ago, that's great. But changing times demand changing attitudes and changing visions and what we're all supposed to be looking at is the future. If we want to have a Hawaii that can work better, and I believe it does because I'm very optimistic, and what we have to do is have a downsized government, have a government that lives within its means like the rest of us and have a government where its leaders are treated just the same as everybody else, rather than special.

[00:56:21] Donna Ikeda: Donna, you get the last word on this. You brought it up. I agree with him and I think that's what we've done. We have tried to to cut the budget and we have cut the budget to the point where we have had to take some drastic steps, and he's criticized us for some of them. Well, we can't be all things to all people. You can talk about cutting taxes, you can talk about cutting government, you also have to figure out how you're going to sustain what's important to you like education. We've done that. I'm listening to rhetoric. I haven't heard one single thing, once

[00:57:00] Sam Slom: specific thing that Sam is going to do and he talks about my being all powerful, one person in the legislature out of 76. Well, I think Sam's been around the legislature a long time and he knows, you know, one person, one vote. It takes 13 to pass anything out of the senate. It takes 26 to pass anything out of the house. And we are individuals and we don't always agree.

[00:57:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Well you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. My name's Randy Roth. I'm here with Donna Ikeda and Sam Sloan, who are running against one another for a seat in the State Senate. We're not taking calls today. We've got a debate of these two candidates. If you tuned in late and would like to hear the debate in its entirety, tonight at 8 o'clock on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, you can do just that. Um, Sam, Donna was the first one to raise an issue today and you got to be the last.

[00:57:54] Donna Ikeda: Yay, all right, go for it. Well, I think the the issue here is uh people's perception of government and whether or not government is going to be responsive, what kind of government we're going to have in the future. And one of the things that I've said and I've been a reluctant candidate. I've lived here for 36 years and for the last 25 years I swore I would never run for office because I don't like the idea of politics, but I'm not going to be your father's old boy politician. And I'm a very strong supporter of term limits. I've been on record for term limits for many years. I've also been a very strong supporter of statewide initiative, referendum and recall unlimited to give people the powers and give them the input and the empowerment that they feel that they lack. I'd like to know uh Donna Ikeda's position on term limits, initiative, referendum and recall.

[00:58:40] Randall Roth: Donna, you've got up to a minute and a half to respond.

[00:58:43] Donna Ikeda: Okay. I don't agree with term limits and Sam knows that and and there's one reason one very good reason for that. Not because it's going to affect people but because there's a downside to that. He talks about being responsive to the voters and to the people of the district. That's the very reason why term limits are not a good idea. You if if you want to be responsive you have to be held accountable. You are held accountable when people when you run for reelection or when you're up for election. That's the system, it works and that's the way it should be. I think there's a downside downside to term limits and I think we're seeing it. When people know that they can't run anymore and that they're at the end of their term, they have nothing to lose, they don't have to care about what the people think and not everybody's like that. But if you take the extreme situation where Sam seems to think that most people and I don't happen to think so, but Sam apparently thinks that most people in office tend to be self-serving, if a person was self-serving, they were at the end of their term, they didn't wouldn't have to listen to anybody. They could do exactly what they want and there would be no recourse on the part of the voters. So, I don't think term limits are a good idea. Initiative, referendum and recall, I have supported.

[01:00:05] Randall Roth: Okay, floor's open.

[01:00:07] Donna Ikeda: Well, I believe that the problem is again it it's a question of when you say that there's there's no recourse, a lot of legislators not the majority and not all, certainly, but a lot of legislators have acted with abandoned in terms of not being held responsible and it had nothing to do whether they were in their last term or whether there's any kind of limit or not. And I think this is what I'm getting at. I think this is what the public is really concerned about this year. And I think they've shown it, that the the government is representing themselves and not representing individuals. And because we don't have term limits, well, you know, it's interesting, Chris, we do. We have term limits for the governor, but it's not good enough for the the House and the Senate and we don't have initiative and we don't have referendum and we don't have recall, and many people do not run for office. One of the reasons I didn't run for office all these years, first of all, I'm up against the powerful woman who's got more than $250,000 and who is using it in her campaign. You have to you have to use money, you have to go and do things that you really don't want to do and spend time away from your family and why? So that there can be horse trading in the legislature? If you give the public more power, if you give them more recourse, then I think all of us are better off. And if you look at serving in the legislature as an extension of your civic responsibility rather than as a career, then what happens is you get better legislators and you will get more and more people. Sure, there'll be housewives or small business owners or people that are not as areadite perhaps as lawyers and insurance executives, but nonetheless, they're real people who face real problems every day. We need fresh ideas and we need changes in the legislature.

[01:01:46] Randall Roth: Donna and I should add, we're down to the last minute so these are kind of closing remarks, Donna.

[01:01:55] Donna Ikeda: Well, um I think we are real people and I I think that was a snide um slap on with using the insurance executive and attorney bit. But um that's to be expected I guess.

[01:02:08] Randall Roth: I tried not to take that personally. Don't take it personal, it's only politics, not personal.

[01:02:14] Donna Ikeda: Okay. But um I think that I've lost my train of thought. I'm sorry.

[01:02:21] Randall Roth: Okay. Well we're down to just literally the last minute, Sam. Take 20 seconds to say why you should be elected and then Donna, you'll have 20 seconds then I'll have to sign off real quickly.

[01:02:32] Donna Ikeda: I think I should be elected because I think we really need a change here. And I think I represent a point of view that looks at people as being more important than government, that the resources belong to the people, that they have more ways of determining how to use their resources than anywhere else. And if I have to put my faith one place or the other, I put it in the individual rather than government. We need reforms now.

[01:02:54] Randall Roth: Donna, 20 seconds.

[01:02:57] Donna Ikeda: I'm running because I think I've done a good job. I haven't given anybody any kind of BS to put it bluntly. Uh and frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing some of this stuff. I have thought about the people. Everything and every decision I've had to make, no matter how tough has been with the interest of the people first. And that's the way I've always operated. That's the way I always will operate. And I think that the people of my district know that.

[01:03:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, thank you Sam Sloan and Donna Ikeda. That's it for today. Our producer is Susie Roth. Our director of operations is Jeff Ailardi. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.