Welfare Reform
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-10-12
Guests: Ah Quon McElrath (retired union social worker; University of Hawaii Regent); Fred Hemmings (businessman; former state legislator and candidate for governor); Kristine Foster (welfare administrator, Hawaii Department of Human Services)
Duration: 1:01:00

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Aloha, I'm Randy Roth, host of The Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic this morning is welfare reform, and with me in the studio to discuss it are Aulani Mactharath, Fred Hemmings, and Christine Foster. Chris Foster is administrator of the Financial Assistance Program in the State Department of Human Services. She worked her way up to that position, having joined the department 25 years ago on the line staff, determining eligibility and issuing benefits to clients.
[00:00:48] Randall Roth: As administrator of the Financial Assistance Program, Chris is very involved in developing the department's welfare reform initiative. She also is directly in charge of the Temporary Assistance to Needy Families Program. Among other reasons, we asked Chris to join us this morning so we can find out firsthand exactly what the Department of Human Services has done and is planning to do by way of welfare reform. Good morning, Chris.
[00:01:11] Kristine Foster: Good morning.
[00:01:12] Randall Roth: Chris, I'm not sure, but I kind of suspect that Hawaii's current approach to welfare will be criticized by both of our other guests, so get ready. Those coming from the right side of the political spectrum will be from a fellow who's well known in Hawaii is an articulate and um and interesting spokesperson for conservative causes and beliefs. Fred Hemmings was born, raised, and educated in Hawaii. Currently an entrepreneur, Fred first gained notoriety in 1968 when he was named the world champion of surfing. Since then, he has founded the first world pro tour of surfing and Hawaii's internationally televised Triple Crown of Surfing competitions. He also has served as an expert commentator on shows such as ABC Wide World of Sports and NBC Sports World.
[00:01:56] Randall Roth: Fred served for a number of years in the state legislature and in recent years has been the Republican Party's candidate for Lieutenant Governor and Governor. Welcome, Fred.
[00:02:04] Fred Hemmings: Thank you, Randy.
[00:02:05] Randall Roth: And our third guest, Aulani Mactharath, is known to many simply as AQ. She's championed the cause of welfare recipients for a long, long time. She was the co-founder of the Committee on Welfare Concerns, which is generally credited as having accomplished a lot of changes in the law back during what AQ calls the affluent times, as opposed to where we are right now. Her name is synonymous with welfare rights here in Hawaii. For many years, she worked for the ILWU, and currently is a regent at the University of Hawaii. When I asked around for the names of articulate spokespersons on the liberal side of welfare reform, the name that just kept coming up again and again, AQ, was AQ Mactharath. Good morning.
[00:02:46] AQ Mactharath: Thank you. Good morning.
[00:02:48] Randall Roth: Um, AQ, also was a guest uh I guess about two months ago. We had a topic on on unions and she was with us. AQ, why don't you get this started by telling us very briefly what in the world is meant by a a headline that I've got in front of me? It appeared about a year and a half ago, almost two years ago. It says, "Farewell to welfare as we know it." There evidently was some federal legislation, and it caused people here in Hawaii to say, "Whoa, as we know it, welfare's gone." What was that all about?
[00:03:16] AQ Mactharath: Welfare, as we know it, was the original uh Social Security Act of 1935, which, in fact, was a method of treating with the problems which were created by the Great Depression. A series of programs were enacted for uh dependent children, for the elderly, and uh for the blind. Uh there were other bits of legislation which concerned the ability to organize, for example, child welfare programs for uh foster children who were without the care of their parents and a number of those things, all determined by one's eligibility for monetary monthly payments.
[00:03:59] Randall Roth: What changed about a year and a half or two years ago?
[00:04:02] AQ Mactharath: The basic change is that of a departure from the original philosophy of a person's eligibility based on need. At the present moment, the new welfare law says that any person could receive can receive temporary assistance, but must go to work. However, the basic thing that is ignored in the new welfare law is that there are many vicissitudes of the political economy so that at times you will have a very large caseload because there are not enough jobs for people, and at other times, um, uh there will be full employment where the caseloads will drop. I think this is alluded to in the Susan Chandler piece in this morning's paper, and, whether one likes it or not, during periods of war, many women are employed while the men are fighting the wars, and so welfare rolls tend to go down.
[00:04:56] AQ Mactharath: In other words, we have moved away from the basic philosophy of need as a reason why people should get help under a system of collective responsibility for the needy of America.
[00:05:12] Randall Roth: Chris, um, you didn't write a piece for the paper, at least it doesn't have your name on it. My hunch is that you had a lot to do with this article that uh that that Susan Chandler wrote, but again you work in this area for her. Um, as I look at at this article, I get the impression that first of all, you're you're acknowledging that the number of people on welfare in Hawaii is going up while everywhere else it's coming down. But you're saying that really isn't because of something that's that's broken within the Department of Human Services. As I read Susan's piece this morning, it's saying it's it's the welfare I mean, it's it's the economy, right?
[00:05:47] Randall Roth: That's the problem.
[00:05:48] Kristine Foster: That's well, that's part of the problem. We, unfortunately, have the distinction of being the lone state whose caseload has increased. Um, but what never shows up is our economy does not follow the mainlands or it follows it several years later and we expect our caseload to do the same thing. The other thing that has happened with welfare reform is that our caseload was growing in double digit percentages. We had 10%, 12%, 15% increases a year. For the first time since welfare reform was implemented, our caseload only increased by 1% last year. We expect the same or leveling off this year, and hopefully start to go down the following year.
[00:06:23] Randall Roth: So while it is going up, it's not accelerating the way it was before, and you think as soon as the economy is stronger than what it's been over the last few years, that the number of people on the rolls in Hawaii will actually come down.
[00:06:35] Kristine Foster: Definitely. Okay.
[00:06:36] AQ Mactharath: Well, on the other hand, I would contest that. There are provisions in the new welfare law which say, for example, that you cannot receive welfare assistance for more than two years straight, you've got to go to work. And here in the department, you are given two months of welfare after that if you are not placed in either subsidized or unsubsidized work, you suffer a 20% cut. So there are many draconian features about the new welfare law, including the fact that no family on temporary assistance to the to needy families can remain for more than five years on the welfare rolls.
[00:07:16] Randall Roth: Well Chris, you were acknowledging that you think the number of people on welfare will come down, and what I hear AQ saying is that there is a draconian way that that's going to be brought down. Would you describe it in those terms or differently?
[00:07:29] Kristine Foster: Um, I think nationally the five-year limit is very frightening. It means even if you're needy and you've already received for five years, you will not be eligible for benefits.
[00:07:38] Randall Roth: And even though that's federal law, Hawaii has to follow it in order to get federal money?
[00:07:43] Kristine Foster: That's correct. We cannot spend federal money on anyone who's received more than five years. After five years, no matter what their situation might be, no matter what the local economy might be, they're out.
[00:07:52] Randall Roth: That's right. And then AQ mentioned something about a two-year rule.
[00:07:55] Kristine Foster: We have a two-year rule which says they have to be employed. But that's a state problem. Um, what we're seeing, and we do have several people that we have identified as needing protection and we don't force them into employment if they're unemployable. Um, they're disabled, they're elderly, they have children under six months. Um, but people that are able to work, I have no problem with saying that they should work, and that's what we've said as a department. If they don't find employment, we are going to place them into volunteer employment positions.
[00:08:22] Randall Roth: So when we say welfare as we knew it is gone, the big difference, I think you're saying, is that there is this push to get people out there working that didn't use to exist.
[00:08:32] Kristine Foster: That, uh, the biggest change is the entitlement status exactly as AQ AQ said. Um, it used to be the federal government picked up the tab regardless of the population. If you were needy, you get assistance. Um, I think the push into work is a good thing. But but there's no longer an entitlement status which means there's a flat amount of money regardless of how many people you service. That's all the money the federal government gives you.
[00:08:56] Randall Roth: And I guess this is what they call the block grants, and this puts pressure on you to figure out ways to get people off the rolls if you possibly can, because there's only so much money to go around.
[00:09:06] Kristine Foster: That's right.
[00:09:07] Randall Roth: In the old days, if people qualified, then the money was going to be there from one source or another that people had a right, and I guess that's why we called it an entitlement. They were entitled to that benefit.
[00:09:16] Kristine Foster: That's right.
[00:09:17] Randall Roth: Fred, I got a feeling that you're approaching this from a completely different direction.
[00:09:21] Fred Hemmings: Yeah, so there's two basic philosophies here. There's um there's reality, what really is happening in the marketplace, and then there's um the desire of to solve the problem which I think both of other speakers represent. The reality is uh that welfare roles are going up in Hawaii. There are jobs, that that excuse is completely false. And secondly, the national program uh is designed to put people back to work. There's a redistribution of wealth in this country and I I would like to offer to both of the speakers this morning that the the redistribution of wealth is not from uh the wealthy to the needy, it's from all of us to a government because less than 25% or about 25% of actual benefits end up in the hands of the the needy.
[00:10:05] Fred Hemmings: Uh, I disagree with many things said this morning, but I would like to say that the the real welfare state started in 1965 with Lyndon Baines Johnson's War on Poverty, and if there was ever empirical proof or evidence that it doesn't work, it's it's the state of it, because the more we spend in this country, the worse it gets. There are two types of recipients on welfare. One who are truly needy through no fault of their own, who we conservatives want to compassionately help more. Not only through a government monopoly, but through charitable institutions in the private sector, which are much more cost effective in helping these people. But the other group [unintelligible — audio glitch] people that are on it because it's more convenient, and this may sound uh heartless, but the facts are, there are [unintelligible — audio glitch] too many people that we see daily in some sort of entitlement program or alleged entitlement program who are there because they choose to be there when there are work alternatives.
[00:10:54] Randall Roth: Let me make sure I've got some of your your main points down right. The first point that I've got down here is that it really isn't the economy that's causing our rolls to go up, that there are jobs in Hawaii available. And in your article this morning, you mentioned that on the island of Maui, for example, that there are people who are who are out there recruiting folks from other places to come to Hawaii to take those jobs.
[00:11:15] Fred Hemmings: I think it's absolutely ludicrous.
[00:11:17] Randall Roth: So you're suggesting someone even if they're on Molokai or Oahu or whatever, if there are jobs in Hawaii, that the system ought to somehow be pushing them over there.
[00:11:26] Fred Hemmings: Right. [unintelligible — audio glitch] I've got empirical proof and by their own their their own statistics. Uh, welfare has continued to grow through times of prosperity too. So if if a prosperous time in our economy, which Hawaii's experienced in the [unintelligible — audio glitch] the '80s, uh was supposed to reduce welfare. Remember we had a $700 million surplus in the state, which was squandered by the people who were doing all these wonderful things for us in state government. Uh, you would think that uh we would have had a reduction in welfare costs. Well, welfare continued to escalate, and it does every year by uh greater percentage points than than our our own personal resources do.
[00:11:59] Randall Roth: Well, and I think that's related to the second point that I've made here. You are suggesting that of of all the money that goes into the welfare system, only a relatively small amount of it actually gets into the hands of the recipient. I think you said 25 cents on the dollar roughly gets into the hands.
[00:12:13] Fred Hemmings: That's right.
[00:12:14] Randall Roth: And and the third point, which is related to the second one, is that you feel that there is this welfare industry with welfare professionals that somehow are doing just fine under the old and the new welfare system, but that it's really not serving the people that it's supposed to serve.
[00:12:30] Fred Hemmings: Right. Most of them are in government. Uh, and what's the real sad thing about this and uh is that [unintelligible — audio glitch] people that are really benefiting from the system are the people in the welfare industry across this country. But it's really sad, and I I here we talk about child care and all these things is in Hawaii, uh we have the highest rate of dual wage and sometimes triple uh job households because about 45% of the gross income of an average household goes to pay for government. And so it's a vicious cycle. Uh those of us are working, we pay more uh so that all these programs continue and and there's more dependency.
[00:13:02] Fred Hemmings: The reality is the more we pay, the worse it gets.
[00:13:04] Randall Roth: Okay. AQ, I'm going to give you an opportunity to tell me what's wrong with what Fred's saying. And then we'll just kind of go around the room and let everyone uh explain what what the flaw is in in each other's logic. AQ?
[00:13:16] AQ Mactharath: The the flaw, basically in Fred's argument is that the percentage of moneys going into welfare is very, very small when you compare it to the total federal budget. For example, everybody beats on the former AFDC recipient, the single parent with children. Actually, the federal AFDC budget amounted to only 5% of the federal budget, a trillion over trillion dollars of federal expenditures, most of which went into the military and other kinds of things which as you know, no longer needed since we don't have an evil empire to beat on. As far as the economy is concerned, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, as we look at the unemployment figures in the United States, for example, that Hawaii is in the doldrums.
[00:14:09] AQ Mactharath: 6.1% unemployed as against 4.9% on the mainland United States, despite the fact that Fred says that there are jobs to be had. We do know that locally, as far as the welfare population is concerned, many of our recipients do not have the job skills, and past experience under the jobs program has shown this to be true. Many of our recipients do not have the educational background in order to find their place in an economy that has become almost totally tech uh techno, what what is the word? Technological? Yes, technological. And so it seems to me that gives the lie to some of his impassioned feelings about people not wanting to work.
[00:14:57] Randall Roth: Chris, you're getting it from both sides. What's the flaw in one or both of what you're hearing from AQ and Fred?
[00:15:05] Kristine Foster: I think one of the hardest things to fight, and we found it consistently, is the image of the welfare recipient. Um, our welfare recipient is a single mother with two children. She's on welfare for an average of two years. Um, the roles are not are controlled by the economy. Um, yes, lots of our people don't have education and what we've said to them, if you want education, we'll help you with it if you go to work first. Um, the economy does affect it. The administrative costs are capped at 10% in this state. So I don't know where the 75% is coming from, but we're limited to 10% administration.
[00:15:39] Randall Roth: Chris, let me ask you, Fred's one of Fred's points is that that incentives are really very important. And what I hear you say is that there are more incentives than ever before for people to get a job, to get off a welfare welfare to become self-defen uh dependent. Is it working?
[00:15:54] Kristine Foster: It is working. Our employed population has increased enormously in since we've in implemented the incentives, it's increased by almost 25%.
[00:16:02] Randall Roth: So you see what what you call your clients as behaving differently because the incentives have changed.
[00:16:08] Kristine Foster: That and the fact that they are very aware because we really went out and communicated that this is a time limited program. If you want anything from us, the first thing you have to do is go to work.
[00:16:17] Randall Roth: Fred, that sounds uh like it's right down your alley in terms of what you'd like to see.
[00:16:21] Fred Hemmings: That's that's uh the real problem. Uh what the reality is and what things sound like and what are really happening are are completely two different things. First of all, the bureaucracy and the people that try to defend this failing program, uh nationally, uh have been able to uh as as done in Hawaii, it almost an art form with the state legislature and the people in power, play a shell game with American people's moneys. And when you talk about welfare, you're not talking about one program, you're talking about many, many, many programs. The statistic that was most alarming is several years ago, a National Institute came out that they [unintelligible — audio glitch] general assistance all of the alleged entitlement programs amount to about $36,000 in income uh for the for the people in Hawaii. We were number one in the nation for for benevolency.
[00:17:06] Fred Hemmings: Uh now if you're working in the private sector a single mother, what is the easier way to take uh go go get a job that's going to net you less money or go on welfare and aid to families with dependent children? You know, she she used the word uh AQ did uh falsehood or lie about the my statistics on or my belief that there are jobs in Hawaii. The first thing you have to remember is Hawaii has a bad economy because of the economic policies of the people in power who were perpetuating the welfare state. The saddest thing about welfare is life of dependency is government owns and operates most of America's poverty. But I've got the one ads from the paper and there's it's loaded with jobs here. Uh, everything from drivers to cleaners.
[00:17:45] Fred Hemmings: The the second big fallacy is that you need job training. The private sector will try gladly train people who really genuinely want to work. You don't have to be [unintelligible — audio glitch] technological wizard [unintelligible — audio glitch] get some of the jobs in Hawaii. You just have to have a a thing. And the real proof is which I find ironic is that on Maui, I know for a fact because I called up there when I was in the legislature, there are companies, as in California, who are importing uh labor to work jobs that Americans don't want to work because it's easier to be in welfare.
[00:18:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, in case you tuned in late and AQ I'll get give you an opportunity to respond to that in just a moment. I want to let folks know that they're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. Our topic today is welfare reform. With me in the studio are Chris Foster, who's the administrator of Financial Assistance at the Department of Human Services, Fred Hemmings, who is an entrepreneur and a conservative voice who's been a candidate for governor on the Republican ticket, and AQ Mactharath, who is uh someone who has championed the causes of welfare recipients for many years here in Hawaii. If you'd like to ask any of them a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. On a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821.
[00:18:54] Randall Roth: Uh, AQ, you've got something you wanted to say.
[00:18:56] AQ Mactharath: Yeah, [unintelligible — audio glitch] think it's it's interesting that Hemmings ra
[00:19:00] Ah Quon McElrath: This is a question of importing uh labor. I do know that some years ago, the Maui economic employment, economic opportunity program did bring in some Mexican labors. The interesting thing about it is that many of the relatives of residents of the state of Hawaii who came in, who have come in under the new immigration law since 1965, um were well educated individuals, many of whom uh did not want to go to work in the fields. I think it was Maui land and Pineapple company which had a shortage. Many of them who could work in the field who didn't have any education did end up with Maui land and Pineapple company. It is an irony of the fact that Hawaii's economy was built by the importation of foreign labor, labor simply because we did not have enough Hawaiians to do the job at the time that there was the beginning of the sugar industry.
[00:20:01] Ah Quon McElrath: Likewise, on the mainland United States, especially along the West Coast and in large cities, you find that native workers feel that they do not want to work, for example, in the fields. They do not want to work in restaurants, which are largely unorganized and when the where the pay rate is so small. And so, the irony is that this large group of immigrants who have also been cut off uh in the entitlement program as a result of welfare reform are the ones who have built this country. And many of them want to go to work, just as for example, I'm sure welfare women want to go to work. I think the research shows that in the lifetime of any welfare women, uh woman, she goes in and out of the workforce depending upon whether or not she can get work, whether or not she can get child care, whether or not she can get transportation, which are some of the kinds of things, for example, that Hawaii is assuring women who are placed on jobs and which many other state jurisdictions such as California, such as Wisconsin, which apparently have had successful back to work movements are are doing.
[00:21:13] Ah Quon McElrath: And so it's a very complicated matter. It's not just simply a matter of people not wanting to work that you have want ads which show that drivers are needed and dry cleaners are needed or anything else is needed.
[00:21:26] Randall Roth: Okay, well I know Fred you got something to say and Chris I think you do too, but let's go to a caller and we'll come back and and give our other guest an opportunity to say what's on their minds in just a bit. Let's go to Andrew in Makiki. Good morning Andrew.
[00:21:37] Andrew: Good morning Randy. Um just sitting here listening to this and really the problem is is I'm listening to AQ. I didn't have no idea she was until you had around with that union show. You can't find anybody else to come and talk about this. There's no legislators or people that actually can make a difference with this whole program, you know. I know Fred, he's a nice guy and everything and quite frankly I think you should take off his gloves and start going at it because it's not a very complicated situation. I'm listening to her, she keeps going on and on and on. She's like the Energizer Bunny. She's talking about people going back to war.
[00:22:09] Andrew: I mean, bringing up stuff up from FDR. You hit it on the nose. It was LBJ's fault back in 1965, you're right. And, you know, it's not a complicated problem. Just to dispute what uh Fred was saying about the jobs. The um you're right, there is truck driver jobs. So what if you don't want to be a truck driver? And what if you're, you know, that's a problem in Hawaii and there's no real decent jobs but then again you look at the labor pool, that's probably what you get what you deserve.
[00:22:34] Ah Quon McElrath: There's no decent jobs uh because uh because government has made business, so owners in Hawaii and that's a massive phenomenal right now. People are, jobs are being chased away uh and it's a vicious circle. Most of the productivity of of the working people of Hawaii does not go to them. I give economic lectures at school all the time.
[00:22:54] Randall Roth: I basically be careful, remember our topic is welfare reform.
[00:22:56] Ah Quon McElrath: Well well the problem is we're in a vicious cycle here and and you know after a quandary diatribe right there, I was having a hard time understanding what she's saying. But I think the caller is exactly right. Maybe a education is faulty. Well you're exactly right. Public public monopoly on public education is faulty. We're spending more on getting poorly educated kids, but that's another subject. The real problem is lack of jobs and opportunities, but I'm saying first of all, there are jobs. Now, I would think that someone who has a choice to go on welfare or work as a truck driver should choose to work as a truck driver before taking money from the working people of Hawaii.
[00:23:30] Ah Quon McElrath: People I feel most sorry for in the economy are the working middle class people or the working mothers who put their children in child care, who take 45% of their salary and give it to government to pay to other people to stay home and not work. The real people being ripped off by the system are the working people.
[00:23:47] Randall Roth: Okay. I have one more thing I want to make. Make it make it a quick one.
[00:23:50] Ah Quon McElrath: Okay, why don't you have somebody that's on welfare come on your show? Why does AQ have to defend them? Let's you know, there's so many of them out there, why don't you get one of them?
[00:23:57] Randall Roth: Well, let's let's invite uh recipients on of of welfare right now to call if if they're listening. Thank you, Andrew. Let's go to Dick in Iea. Good morning, Dick.
[00:24:06] Dick: Yes, I'm always pleased to hear AQ's logic and spoke contrary to the last speaker caller. She is one of the great people in Hawaii, but the thing that I'm calling about is the Fred citing that Cato Institute data saying 35,000. I read it in this uh thing this morning paper and I can remember it being exposed as a terrible phony set of figures. They say liars, I mean, figures don't lie, but liars know how to figure. And Cato did a superb job. I'm sure there's nobody on welfare or if if very few at most, that get that kind of money. Being on welfare is no joy ride.
[00:24:47] Randall Roth: Dick, let me get a reaction and and on stay on the line. I'll come back to you. But let me get a reaction to what you're saying, first from Chris Foster, from the Department of Human Services, and then from Fred Hemmings.
[00:24:57] Kristine Foster: Thank you, Dick. I agree. We're not paying 35,000. A lot of what they counted, people don't get. They made an assumption that everybody gets everything. Um the second, much of what they counted is not financial assistance. What they get in money is a approximately $600 a month and $300 in food stamps. That's to support a family of three, four a month, which is not very much money.
[00:25:20] Fred Hemmings: Well, I'm sorry, the statistics are overwhelming uh on the on the side of the logic. The biggest statistic of all is that welfare reform, I mean, welfare reform is working in other states [unintelligible — audio glitch] ranks are going down. The second one is that the existing system that Hawaii seems to be trying to cling to is not working because the money and costs are going up. It creates more dependency. Uh the the figure that came out of the Cato Institute is supported by other foundations in in Washington DC. And the $36,000 figure is a before tax figure. Also, secondly, when you talk about welfare as we discussed before, the people, the socialists and [unintelligible — audio glitch] liberals in our state who have destroyed this economy are real good at hiding the real numbers and anything by the shell game.
[00:26:04] Fred Hemmings: There are many, many programs. I know that the working people of Hawaii because this has happened to me many times, nothing I resent more than being in a line at the checkout stand and having to buy hamburger because I'm on a tight budget with kids in school and stuff and and seeing a welfare uh food stamp recipient uh buying things that I can't afford and then using cash. And that's happened to me many, and that's the type of insensitivity to the working people that these alleged compassionate programs have. The numbers are overwhelming. And by the way, $900 uh in free and clear money translates to a salary of about $14 or $1,500 a month. So you you tell me what you'd choose Randy.
[00:26:40] Fred Hemmings: To get $900 tax free every month or go to work for $1,500 and have the tax taken away and and net nine. It's cheaper not to work.
[00:26:48] Randall Roth: Dick, back to you.
[00:26:49] Dick: Okay. Again, Fred is reiterating uh a lot of of quote traditional anti-welfare think tanks. And my feeling is, yes, the system is not has not worked well and I'm hoping that the progress we're making will not adversely impact the lives of the next generation that are now being brought up. They need support and aid dependent children is definitely needed. So I appreciate the opportunity of speaking.
[00:27:15] Randall Roth: Thank you very much. Okay, thank you, Dick. We got to Rita in Moiliili. Good morning, Rita.
[00:27:20] Rita: Oh, thank you. I just wanted to make a comment. I heard Acorn Mackerel say, ADC gets only 5%. That's 1/20th of the total USA budget. 5% is 1/20th of the total budget. I just can't believe that. I hope all your socialists and social do listeners hear that well. 5% is enormous.
[00:27:50] Randall Roth: Rita, let's give AQ an opportunity to respond to that.
[00:27:53] Ah Quon McElrath: In terms of the total federal budget, 5% is peanuts. Absolute peanuts and I believe the 5%, if I'm not entirely incorrect, also included at one point the Medicaid program, which is again, another very costly program that helps people who are in need of health care.
[00:28:16] Kristine Foster: Incredible failure, Medicaid, as social security is.
[00:28:19] Randall Roth: Okay. Rita, um did you have anything else to add?
[00:28:23] Rita: 1/20th of the entire federal budget.
[00:28:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Rita, thank you for your call. Um you know Fred I want to ask you something based on what you said just a couple of minutes ago. I think I heard you say that welfare reform is working elsewhere, it's not working in Hawaii. What is it that we're doing differently in Hawaii? Why wouldn't it work? You know, if it's not the economy, which I think is what Chris is suggesting is primarily, if not exclusively the reason, why isn't it working in Hawaii? There was every [unintelligible — audio glitch] we must consumers, the chief beneficiary and regulator of a free economy by resisting monopolies, both public and private.
[00:30:45] Fred Hemmings: And our government, especially in Hawaii, does a real good job of resisting with antitrust laws and everything else, uh private monopolies. But government has created its own self-mandated monopolies in many, many areas and there is no accountability to it. Uh, charitable pursuits where where private institutions and the charity work do a great job [unintelligible — audio glitch] servicing the truly needy, much more cost-effective. Uh, government monopolies create more Government monopoly and public education, look what it's done.
[00:31:12] Randall Roth: Uh, Chris, let me ask you. You've been in the Department of Human Services for 25 years, so you know the quote old system inside out and you've been working with and and helping to design the new system. What's your perception in terms of the magnitude of the change and the attitudes and all of that?
[00:31:30] Kristine Foster: Uh, magnitude, attitudes, the changes are significant. Um, a couple of corrections I'd like to make. Welfare reform has not worked anywhere yet. Case loads have gone down and the decreases were prior to welfare reform being implemented. Nobody's case load, as far as I know, has gone down since the welfare rules came into place. Um, secondly, our costs have decreased significantly by several million dollars a month, although our population hasn't, because then I'm sorry, greater number of people going to work and the decrease in the benefits we're paying.
[00:32:01] Randall Roth: Now, I I may be wrong, but I I think I've read articles that would suggest that the states on a state-by-state basis, in anticipation of the federal changes, made fairly dramatic adjustments to their own state systems and and that's at least been credited, maybe erroneously, but credited with having caused the the number of people on the welfare rolls to come down dramatically and the amount of money going into the welfare system to come down dramatically. The implication being without the suffering that that any civilized group of people doesn't want to to put onto others. What's your reaction to that?
[00:32:36] Kristine Foster: I don't think that's correct. They don't know. What happened is people disappeared, nobody has tracked them. The two states that implemented significant welfare reform changes prior to welfare were Michigan and Wisconsin, and what they did is just close down programs. The other thing, Tommy Thompson, who's the one you hear from most frequently, has said consistently is welfare reform is very expensive. And although his population decreased, his costs increased because he put money into child care and he put money into job training and he put money into transportation that he was not spending in welfare benefits.
[00:33:11] Ah Quon McElrath: AQ, um I think you've said on occasion, it's easy to cut welfare, you just give less money, but in the long run, I think your point has been, it's going to cost more. It actually is going to cost more because if the person is not trained well and if the person in fact gets a job that is not even up to the poverty level and many of the Hawaii jobs uh at the number of hours worked and at the average hourly wage indicate that even if women on welfare were placed on jobs now, you would find the state would have to continue to provide transportation as well as child care. And if in fact the state is going to say, no, we are not going to uh provide child care, then the woman will leave her job.
[00:34:01] Ah Quon McElrath: Where will she place her children if unless there is a daycare center that will take her child at less than $300 a month, which is now the average payment I believe in a daycare center and Chris, you can uh confirm that particular thing. So that women may in fact go in and out of welfare until such time as they reach the limit of five uh five years [unintelligible — audio glitch] payment.
[00:34:27] Randall Roth: Well, I can tell from looking at him that Fred's got something to say, but I first want to let anyone who tuned in late know that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name's Randy Roth. We're talking about welfare reform. I'm in the studio with Chris Foster from the Department of Human Services, Fred Hemmings, who is a critic of our welfare system here in Hawaii, and AQ Mackerel, who I guess is a critic but for completely different reasons. AQ would suggest that maybe we as a society should be putting more into the system and being more compassionate to the recipients. And Fred I think would suggest that that's not a good idea at all.
[00:34:58] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, well we can get a reaction from Fred immediately because that is not really what I mean.
[00:35:03] Randall Roth: Oh okay, okay. No wait, wait, wait. I got to tell people, call us up at 955-8821. AQ, what do you really mean? And then we'll get Fred's reaction.
[00:35:15] Ah Quon McElrath: What I really mean to say is that all of our people should have the chance at a very good education, so that they can go on out and get a job, according to all of the want ads that Fred Hemmings is talking about, and also a society that would provide full employment as was our philosophy in the 1960s and implemented by the Hawkins Act but never ever really carried out. And when you manipulate the system with the Federal Reserve system saying that 6% unemployment is a good rate, everybody will be fully employed, then it seems to me there are flaws in the way this particular system is carried out.
[00:35:58] Randall Roth: I want to make sure I got it right though because everybody wants a strong economy. When we look at the welfare system, I think you're saying that we're not putting as much in as we should, we're not being as compassionate to the recipients, we're cutting back too much on that.
[00:36:09] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, on on that score, yes indeed, but I think there needs to be other things that uh should be done with regard to the political economy.
[00:36:17] Randall Roth: And Fred would agree, not on what needs to be done, but the fact that something needs to be done. Fred, you've got some comments on what you've been listening to and then we've got some people on the line.
[00:36:24] Fred Hemmings: Well, first of all, [unintelligible — audio glitch] would disagree with those who use the word compassion to defend this uncompassionate program. There's nothing more miserable in this country than government owned and operated poverty in the welfare ghettoes of America. Government public housing is usually not a compassionate place, it's a very dangerous place. Uh government dependency is not compassion, it's is incompassionate. The real compassionate people in America are the ones who want to get people off welfare by putting them back to work. We can go on and on with opinions this morning, but once again, I'll come back to the statistics. The rest of the nation, and you alluded to this to this when she made [unintelligible — audio glitch] accusation that the welfare reform's not working, just the anticipation of welfare reform is working.
[00:37:10] Fred Hemmings: Able-bodied citizens are going back to work because they think they're going to not be able to collect the check to not work. Uh, the facts are we do have jobs in Hawaii. We have so many jobs, there are companies importing labor from out of the state to come here and work while welfare recipients say. The facts are that the benefits, the total benefits to welfare recipients oftentimes exceed uh those that uh people that are working. The facts are that the the real criminal in this whole process is government who's consuming most of the money either directly through the payroll and and support of the government agencies or through third-party alleged providers who are are providing themselves not not the system.
[00:37:48] Fred Hemmings: Uh, the facts totally uh uh prove that welfare reform is working and can work.
[00:37:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go to Jim in Makiki. Good morning Jim.
[00:37:58] Jim: Hello Randy. This is Jim Brewer. Hi, Jim.
[00:38:01] Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I wanted to maybe expand a little bit on what, uh, Akon was talking about with the, uh, uh, unemployment created by the Federal Reserve System.
[00:38:15] Jim: Jim, make it short because it's not our topic this morning, but go ahead.
[00:38:18] Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, though, is that it's at the heart of your topic this morning because the Federal Reserve System basically maintains 10 to 12% of the people unemployed all the time because the official rate, uh, is not the real rate of unemployment, and this creates the pool of people who are in poverty, the people who are jobless. And the thing is, within a an an area, you can have structural unemployment, which we are suffering from right now from the demise of sugar and pineapple and also the cutting of about 3,000 government um jobs. And the thing is that uh, before welfare reform here in Hawaii, we had 30,000 people looking for a job every day.
[00:38:58] Speaker 2: Now, with uh single parents with little kids who are on welfare having the work requirement, uh, there's 45,000 people looking for work. And um that's uh that's the official uh rate. There's still other kinds of discouraged workers and whatnot, but the point is that until there's a full employment policy in the country, and you can have variations, some place, uh maybe in Washington where they have Microsoft and boy, you can have uh lower uh unemployment, but here in Hawaii, a structural things cause higher unemployment. But it all revolves around this uh meet uh this uh baseline of 10 to 12% of the people unemployed.
[00:39:36] Jim: Okay. And the thing is, though, this is the point. What do you do with those folks? They should get training, and they the lag time for them getting a job should be short as much as possible. They should get job support like child care and whatnot. But the point is is that while they're there, two-thirds of them are children. Are you going to say uh, uh, your parents got to work or starve even though there are no jobs. Okay. Jim, thanks for your call. We go to Rota from Nanacouli. Good morning, Rota.
[00:40:03] Rota: Good morning. I wanted to comment about that um what that lady said over there, what the welfare system this morning, I'm one of them. And I just got me my job, and I'm my first check. I set in all my paperwork to my welfare. Okay, they had us say that if we go to work, they would still help us on our payroll, on our paychecks and thing. I got cut off for month. And now I only get food that, okay?
[00:40:30] Jim: So you feel like it it backfired on you getting a job?
[00:40:34] Rota: Yeah, because they said they were supposed to help us if we get a job. Okay, I got a two-year-old and a 15 and a night. Now no matter how much we try to get a job, they're still yet not helping us with how we're supposed to stay if we still got to live on what we're making right now and they cut us off one time.
[00:40:53] Jim: Okay. Rota, I am not smart enough to know what questions to ask you to better understand just what's happening, but Chris Foster from the Department of Human Services, Chris, can can you help us understand what's happening with Rota and whether it's it's typical, uh expected or or something out of the ordinary?
[00:41:10] Rota: Well, before before should talk, I'd like to also um advise one other thing on a child care. Okay, I have child care, but we get $2.75 a day I think, or an hour, and it it totals up to $325 a month. A month. Let me tell you something. If you don't make up that so much amount of hours, or even if you stick they deduct that now. Your babysitter has to either get down on it, on the lower on the payment. She talks he or she will not get the full payment. And if you don't meet the criteria of the job unit or such things like that, like they're going to take you out. And where are you then? And if you got a if you got a choice to take a truck driver's job for the welfare, someone whoever that person was and said they should take a truck driver's job, to think twice because you can't just jump into a truck driver's job.
[00:42:02] Rota: There's a lot of things that you need to have, like a CDL license, a physical, you need to know about a truck. It's not the same thing of driving it like a regular car.
[00:42:11] Jim: Rota, let me make sure I've I've got this right. Um you feel like there isn't as much support of you as as there should be, in other words, there isn't enough money to take care of child care if your needs in any given month are greater than what they might normally be?
[00:42:28] Rota: Well, they shouldn't In a way, yeah, but in a way, if they say that they're going to help us to, then help us. Don't let us just drop like a hot tamale.
[00:42:37] Jim: And you're also feeling that that by the time you you pay what you have to pay, the money that you have left over doesn't really let you get any further than where you were when you were on welfare?
[00:42:49] Rota: Correct. We can't even get things for our children. We can't even get things for what we need for our home. Because why, the money that we have, we have to pay the shelter over our kids' home.
[00:42:58] Jim: Okay. Rota, stay on the line. Chris, what's your reaction to what you're hearing?
[00:43:03] Chris: Um, I'm not sure what happened specifically, Rota. I can tell you our standard is gross income 185% of federal poverty level. If you go over that, you're ineligible. From net income, we disregard almost 50%, which means if you were cut off, it's because your earnings were so much higher than your entitlement. The child care is maximum 325 per child per month, but we pay based on actual cost, which means if you work part-time, we would pay less than that. Specifically, um unless your earnings were quite large, Rota, I'm not sure why your case was closed.
[00:43:38] Rota: No, my earnings are not that large. If they were, then I wouldn't be stuck in almost the middle of the month.
[00:43:44] Chris: Then then I'm not sure what happened. Why was what was the reason your case was closed?
[00:43:48] Rota: Well, they said because of my earnings, but I look at my earnings and I just If I if my earnings are so high like you say, then how come I don't have extra money by not to pay for my rent? Rent's not cheap nowadays, electric is not cheap nowadays.
[00:44:01] Jim: No, and everything's expensive and high as a relative term.
[00:44:03] Chris: Where the money that goes into our pocket We're using a federal poverty level, which is the argument everyone's had all along. We're talking about all this money we're paying out. We're not paying very much.
[00:44:13] Jim: Okay. Rota, I I appreciate your call. We're going to have to move on, but I really appreciate your uh sharing your experience with us this morning.
[00:44:20] Rota: All right. Thank you very much. You bet.
[00:44:22] Jim: Thanks. We go to Heather from Honolulu. Good morning, Heather.
[00:44:25] Heather: Good morning. Um, I was um wanting to say that I think there should be a push in education as opposed to pushing and getting jobs in the welfare system. Because like myself, I'm a single mother, and I'm also a full-time student at UH Manoa, and I think that if more single mothers go to college and get their education, that later on there'll be less people on welfare, and our children will not go onto welfare as well because they'll see how much we have worked for our education and to to put that value in that they should work for it, too.
[00:44:54] Jim: Okay. Akon, I think in your piece this morning you commented that they can't be considered working when they're just going to school.
[00:45:01] Ah Quon McElrath: Yeah, it the irony about getting women on welfare to work is that under the new welfare law, in the phrase engaging in work, there is no room for a woman to go to school, complete her associate degree, or her baccalaureate degree, even if she were on a Pell grant or Perkins loan. Now, under the old jobs program, going to school was part of the work training and a woman was allowed a certain amount of time in which to get an education on the basis that the better educated you are, the better chances you have of getting a well-paying job. That is no longer true under the new welfare law. The only time that they allow you to attend school is if you are in a vocational education program and that must last only for 12 months.
[00:45:57] Ah Quon McElrath: Consequently, it seems to me we're cutting off our noses to spite our faces in this particular situation.
[00:46:03] Jim: Okay. Fred, do you have a comment to that? Do you just disagree?
[00:46:06] Fred Hemmings: Well, yeah, I I certainly do disagree. First of all, the young lady who called is on welfare made the reference to that, uh you need to be trained as a truck driver. I know for a fact that the private sector is more than happy to train people in the job they employ people at and they do it all the time. It's a lot cheaper uh than paying the excessive taxes to have people not work. But there are many other jobs where you don't need a high level of training and there'll always be those types of jobs in an economy. The reality is that the what are we really talking about here is statism. The people defending the system think that the state and government can do a better job of taking care of our people than the individual families, and we're slowly drifting away from the responsibilities of families and the responsibility of charitable institutions.
[00:46:44] Fred Hemmings: The people in this country, uh could take care of each other, but we're doing it almost every field of endeavor in the medical industry. We're headed towards statism where the government is going to take care of everybody medically. Huge bankrupt programs are are looming on the horizon. Uh, social security Akon mentioned earlier. Imagine if we conceptually believe in social security, but we mandated that that would have been run on a private If I took the money, I'm putting social security now, and was able to control it and be the beneficiary on my own, I would be 10 times more wealthy than than giving it to government, the squander and inefficient, uh mismanaged programs.
[00:47:18] Ah Quon McElrath: It's very interesting that Fred alludes all the time to the fact that private industry would be willing to train people. No doubt private industry has done it, but under welfare, for a welfare reform for example, the state underwrites a six month training program for a person who is placed by the Department of Human Services with a private employer. In other words, the state picks up the tab for that particular person and it is hoped that after that program, private industry will in fact guarantee that that person for whom the state took the responsibility will be hired as a permanent employee and Chris can confirm whether or not that is true.
[00:48:01] Chris: That's true. We have not found private industry very willing at all to train. We're down on our knees begging.
[00:48:07] Ah Quon McElrath: Wait. Let me finish, please. You keep referring to Maui importing labor. They are no longer doing that. The jobs aren't here. We're telling our people the same as you. Take any job you can find. If you're working, you can go to school but take a job.
[00:48:22] Fred Hemmings: I'm doing my homework, preparing for this show. I called a man in Maui who is doing that, and he's bringing in labor from Micronesia. Uh, people coming in immigrants. In fact, you can't have it both ways. You can't defend immigrant labor coming in as Akon did earlier, then claim you're not you don't have immigrant labor. So that's an outright falsehood, Chris. I know for a fact because I talked to the guy who's bringing in Micronesian labor, labor and I also talk to a Maui land and pine representative, who says they still have contact with a guy in Arizona who does Mexican labor. Uh, uh, the private sector is reluctant, uh to to uh take on the full burden of training people for the simple reason that we pay twice in America for many things.
[00:48:58] Fred Hemmings: We pay once to have our our kids educated in a public education system, and then we pay again to to send our kids to private schools. The biggest hypocrites in the world are those legislators and government leaders who say invest in public education and then send their kids to private schools, which the majority of them do, including teachers by the way. Uh, private sector is paying a huge amount of money. When I say private sector, I don't mean business, I mean the private individual and we're paying all this money and we don't get back anything in return other than, well, if you want to train people you do it. Why should we pay twice? Why should we pay once to the excessive taxation that's destroying our economy and destroying jobs, and then and then ask to be paid to train people after that.
[00:49:33] Jim: We we've got 10 minutes to go and a bunch of people who've been waiting patiently and I want to give my guests an opportunity to make some closing remarks as well. So we're going to have to move on quickly to Jerry from Kailua who tells us he's a social worker. Good morning, Jerry.
[00:49:47] Jerry: Yeah, so I've been a social worker. Now I'm an employment counselor. And Hawaii is the only state that puts welfare reform to the test because all the other states are in boom times. Our weekday um job ads have shrunk down to three columns, most of which are for specialists or Japanese speaking. I think the Hawaii capitalist sold our Waikiki hotels, our main industry to foreigners who are not interested in our workers and who have taken all the profits out of the state. Welfare makes the community desperate and unsafe. And um [unintelligible — audio glitch] just get really upset at the Hemmings absolute lies about doing homework. I mean all he has to do is read the job ads in the newspaper, three columns during this week.
[00:50:36] Jerry: I have 60 people to place. I don't place one of them during a week because there's so few jobs.
[00:50:43] Fred Hemmings: False. I I've got the paper right in front of me, there's seven columns. First of all, and second of all, you might ask yourself you might ask yourself why there's no jobs. There's no jobs because we live in a socialist state where economic opportunity is fleeing the state because no one can make an honest profit in this state.
[00:51:00] Jim: I'll tell you what. Uh Jerry, you've made your point and Fred, I think is made his and and we'll just keep moving so that we can get to all the folks who've been waiting patiently.
[00:51:08] Jerry: Sunday used to have 30 columns. It's only got I mean 30 pages. It only got seven little pages, and they're all specialist jobs. Nothing for ordinary person that needs those jobs.
[00:51:18] Jim: I'll tell you what, let's encourage people to take a look and let them decide for themselves. Jerry, thanks for your call. We do have, we do have to move on. Thank you very much. We go to Mike from Manoa. Good morning, Mike.
[00:51:28] Mike: Uh, hi. I just wanted to point out the utter fallaciousness of Fred Hemmings's basic position. He's drawing a distinction between state and private corporations when anybody knows anything about government, including his role when he was in it, knows that that's that's a fallacy. Private corporations own the local politicians and that's why we have this welfare problem that we do. I agree it's a state corporate problem. That's the one thing I think he got right. For years, they have backed sugar first and then tourism as the only major industry here. Every time it suits them, they flee to the third world where they have no unions keeping up, uh jobs, putting lots of people out on the welfare rolls.
[00:52:04] Mike: And even those people who do work here and stay here earn pittances for the kind of menial jobs that those two industries have produced. The welfare situation is one of his creation, politicians and corporations together.
[00:52:15] Jim: Okay, Mike, we appreciate your comment this morning. Let's take one more call. Anton from Waikiki. Good morning, Anton.
[00:52:21] Anton: Yeah, I'd like to, uh, just say that the welfare, um, uh, programs right now are in a real mess. I have, uh, I know at least one person that had a heart attack a year ago, who's a diabetic, who's homeless, he lost his apartment. He's on welfare. It doesn't pay for his expenses. Now, he's got to, he's got to keep his insulin in an ice box in his car. He can't keep the needles in at IHS because they get stolen by the drug addicts there. Uh, this man has, uh, absolute He's He's a step away from death. And this is this is our compassionate welfare program as it is today. Now, I don't care who makes changes, but there certainly has to be some big changes made.
[00:52:56] Jim: Okay, I I appreciate your comment and we're down to just five minutes and I want to give each of my guests an opportunity to take a minute or a minute and a half or something like that. And whether you're responding to that or making your closing remarks. Fred, why don't we start with you because you've got something you want to say right now.
[00:53:10] Fred Hemmings: That's the real that that last caller really hit the nail on the head of what the real problem with this [unintelligible — audio glitch] whole system is. They're truly needy in our society, the people who don't have a choice, the sick, the infirmed, the aged are not getting the help they need because the system is basically broke. And it's broke because and the proof is in the performance. We can sit around and talk all day a a great and wise man, James Madison said that that experience is the oracle of truth and our experience with the welfare system nationally and and pathetically here locally is that the more we spend, the worse it gets. It [unintelligible — audio glitch] creates a culture of dependency rather than independence.
[00:53:45] Fred Hemmings: The facts are overwhelming in that regards. Uh the solution is, and that right we haven't talked about much about solution, is returning to a system where where private charities where families and where [unintelligible — audio glitch] free market place of ideas and assistance uh prevails over the government monopoly over these failing programs. Um uh I would offer the people of Hawaii great hope. We are a great state with a great workforce with great opportunities. Uh our problems economically or politically induced and the solution has to come from those people who believe in the individual citizens in this country before statism, socialism and government.
[00:54:19] Jim: Okay. Chris Foster, you're the administrator of financial assistance program for the State Department of Human Services. You've listened to about 57 minutes or so of all of this. Uh what do you need to add or emphasize before we sign off?
[00:54:31] Chris: I think we have a good program in the State of Hawaii. I think it's very compassionate. I think it's very progressive, and I think it's been successful. The number of people working has increased significantly. The costs have decreased. I think the other pieces we have to put in is we have to work on our child care because we can't expect mothers with one and two and three-year-olds to go to work without adequate child care. And the other piece that people keep forgetting about that's essential is child support. That if most of these people are getting the child support which they are entitled to, they would not need welfare. And I think that's the next piece that we have to pick up. Really concentrate on collecting child support.
[00:55:08] Jim: Is is the basic task that you face one of balancing so that on the one hand you you want to be compassionate, you don't want to push people off the edge, but on the other hand, you don't want it to be so comfortable that they don't have an incentive to go out and be self-dependent.
[00:55:24] Chris: Exactly. We don't want them to be dependent. We want them to be self-sufficient. We're trying to move them towards self-sufficiency and I think we are doing that.
[00:55:32] Jim: And and there's the structure itself, and we talk about the reform system, and then there are the people in it. How much how much impact do the people like you have? Is it a simple matter of applying the template of the rules and and kind of doing a computer-like process, or are you making a lot of subjective calls? How can you be compassionate, is what I'm asking, if the rules are real cut and dried?
[00:55:54] Chris: We have we have leeway um under welfare reform because a lot of it said, this is how much money you have, do with it what you want. Um I think we we had a lot of input into the kind of program that we wanted. I think we developed a good program and recipients and businesses and private industry and government all participated in the development. I think we have to give it a chance to see if it's going to work. Whether or not it works will depend on the recipient.
[00:56:19] Jim: Okay.
[00:56:20] Ah Quon McElrath: Hey Q Michael Roth. Closing comments. Well, I suspect that Fred Hemmings and people like him revel in what they feel is a wonderful past, where individual initiative was very important, where private charities presumably were able to take care of the problem. It's interesting to note that the now President of United Way of America, who is a woman, her name escapes me at the moment, said, at the time that the welfare law was passed, the welfare reform law was passed in August of 19
[00:57:00] Speaker 1: 66 that there was no way in which private charity could take care of the massive problems that are needed by individuals who are elderly, who are disabled, who are displaced from their jobs for various periods of time. And it is true that, in fact, our governmental system of collective responsibility was built up simply because private charity in the depression of the 1930s could not take care of the massive problems that were generated at that time. However one may feel about those programs which were generated, including the war on poverty for example, one has to agree with the president of United Way that there is no way in which private charity can take care of the problem.
[00:57:55] Speaker 1: And that, in fact, there is nothing wrong with compassion for those who can't make it, rather than compassion, as I indicated in my article, for the speculators who thrive on individual greed and who have every enactment of law on their side to get away with as much money as they can.
[00:58:17] Speaker 2: Our producers, Susie Routh. Our technical wizard is Ryan Campouster. You have been listening to the Price of Prejudice Radio show. Aloha.
[00:57:57] Speaker 1: There is nothing wrong with compassion for those who can't make it. Rather than compassion, as I indicated in my article, for the speculators who thrive on individual greed and who have every enactment of law on their side to get away with as much money as they can.
[00:58:18] Speaker 2: Our producer Susie Roth, our technical wizard is Ryan Campupo. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. Aloha.
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