Hawaiian Autonomy II
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-01-18
Guests: Peter Apo (Governor's point person for Hawaiian affairs); Peter Adler (Executive Director, Hawaii Justice Foundation); Ed Case (State Representative); Charlie Rose [by phone] (First Vice President, Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs; President, Ha Hawaii)
Duration: 1:04:59

[00:00:03] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, price host of The Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning on KHPR and KKUA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings, beginning at 8:00 on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Today's show is a continuation of last week's conversation about a bill that is likely to be submitted in this year's legislative session. It was drafted by Representative Ed Case from Manoa, and discusses a host of what might generally be called Hawaiian issues.
[00:00:47] Randall Roth: Called the Native Hawaiian Autonomy Act, it proposes such things as the combination of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs and the Department or let's see, DHHL. What is that, Peter?
[00:00:58] Peter Apo: Department of Hawaiian Homelands.
[00:01:00] Randall Roth: Department of Hawaiian Homelands, and also settlement of all outstanding land claims. It is sweeping in its scope to say the least. If you've noticed this morning's newspaper, uh on page A29, full page ad paid for by the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, says, notice of alert to Hawaii's voters, decisions that affect Hawaiians for generations to come are being made without discussion with Hawaiian organizations. A few legislators should not disregard their constituents as well as the court-ordered and constitutionally guaranteed rights of the Hawaiian people. Legislation beneficial to Hawaiians is beneficial to the state of Hawaii. It goes on to provide quotes from a number of leaders in uh the Hawaiian community.
[00:01:46] Randall Roth: Well, with me in the studio this morning, I have Peter Apo and Peter Adler. Peter Apo is a former state representative. He was in the legislature for 12 years. He's a former trustee of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. Currently he's special assistant to Governor Ben Cayetano. He is in charge of Hawaiian affairs and culture and the arts. Peter Apo, good morning.
[00:02:10] Peter Apo: Aloha kakahiaka.
[00:02:12] Randall Roth: Peter, um, what are we talking about just real generally in a very broad brush sort of fashion, especially for the listener out there that's maybe new to Hawaii, just real quickly, what's this conversation about?
[00:02:28] Peter Apo: I think, uh or at least in the part of Representative Case, I think we have an acknowledgment here in this bill, um, that there is a need to try to connect the dots on all the various issues uh surrounding Hawaiian affairs. Now, absent process, it it is the bill, you know, I think is really nothing more or less than that, but but the fact is absent process is really created a a a heavy emotion charged um uh atmosphere.
[00:02:57] Peter Apo: Secondly, I think at least from the standpoint of the administration, and I think it's fairly well acknowledged throughout the community, that the 21st century in Hawaii is going to the quality of life here, economically, politically, is going to be largely determined by how well this community handles the Hawaiian question. Um, and that in fact, bills like this, and [unintelligible — audio glitch] um how do we go about structuring a red redefinition of the Hawaiian community in its relationship with the state and federal government.
[00:03:28] Peter Apo: So this bill is is the first attempt I think of anyone that I know of to try to connect all the dots uh although probably the absence of process might be ill-advised.
[00:03:38] Randall Roth: And and when we talk about process, basically what we're saying is that Ed started this conversation by unilaterally coming up with this bill, as opposed to starting the conversation by going out to the many individuals and organizations that are especially concerned about these issues, and working with them to come up with some sort of group-generated bill. Okay. Um where does the governor stand on this?
[00:04:03] Peter Apo: Well, if I might, uh just take a couple of minutes, Randy, because uh because we do think that that the Hawaiian question is very important. We've been trying to fashion a context in which to consider all Hawaiian uh uh questions. And of course, this bill helps trigger even even a deeper concern on the need to connect the dots. Uh there a couple of fundamental assumptions that we're we're beginning to operate from. One is that every ethnic Hawaiian issue raised by the Hawaiian community is fundamentally linked to two long-standing and commonly held held beliefs.
[00:04:36] Peter Apo: First, that the federal government and its agent, the state of Hawaii, grossly mismanaged their trust responsibilities to native Hawaiians. And as a result, native Hawaiians have essentially been disenfranchised from the promises of the Hawaiian Homestead Act, the Ceded Land Trust, and all the other beneficiary trustee agreements. Secondly, we believe that the demise of Queen Lili and the successor provisional government, the Republic of Hawaii, the territory of Hawaii, state of Hawaii, all those governments basically produced a land-based corporate prosperity at the expense of uh of what was then a naive native population.
[00:05:15] Peter Apo: One of the things that's hard to deal with today is there is a gnawing discomfort that's hard to articulate uh that still exists among Hawaiians, that there never has been redress to the question of the usurpation of the Hawaiian Kingdom and the loss of native dignity. Dignity is a very important thing to Hawaiians that that is goes beyond political and economic boundaries. And rather than diminish with time, this discomfort is reinforced every year as more Hawaiian issues rise to the surface.
[00:05:46] Peter Apo: Um, in the '70s, as we know, there was a sort of a huge awakening of the of the Hawaiian community through Ka Ho'olaulea and Hōkūleʻa, and and a new cadre of Hawaiian leadership began to emerge from from the young ranks of young people and Kupuna. And the Hawaiian political landscape since then has really exploded with flash points, Kahoolawe, Makua, Hawaiian homeland claims, ceded land trust claims, native gathering rights, OHA, the blood quantum, so on, so forth, you know? And sometimes there's a it creates a lot of confusion for anyone really trying to understand the whole picture, because there's a lot of issues and each issue has its own constituency.
[00:06:26] Peter Apo: We kind of see two general tracks that beg at some point in time, convergence. First, there's the question of dealing with the broken trusts, mainly the Hawaiian Homelands Trusts and the Ceded Land Trusts. And of course, there's always the thing that Peter Adler recently has been involved in, the emergence of native rights [unintelligible — audio glitch] critical issue uh which has been the most recent flash point. Now, this is not something that Hawai- that's anything new for Hawaiians. They're not asking for anything new, they're simply saying that after a hundred years, Mr. Federal Government, and since annexation, Mr. State Government, keep your promises. So that's one track, trying to redress broken trusts.
[00:07:11] Peter Apo: Where it starts getting confusing is when you add the other track, which is the added political dynamic of Hawaiians attempting to dialogue a redefinition of their entire relationship uh with the state and a federal government by beginning to propose and to discuss models of self-determination and sovereignty, which takes us into a new millennium of the area. One of the difficulties is is in trying to transition from the landscape of broken trusts uh to a sovereignty model where Hawaiians really are truly sovereign to determine their own destiny by gaining control, you know, of their resources, is how do you do that without extinguishing broken trust claims and the ability of the Hawaiian community to seek redress?
[00:07:54] Peter Apo: So, the autonomy bill, the autonomy bill attempts to do this, you know, it attempts to really sort of encapsulate the whole history of broken trusts, uh uh address all of that, and at the same time, in one fell sweep swoop, move Hawaiians into a model of sovereignty. Uh that's a kind of a mission impossible, I think in in in the current political uh atmosphere, and uh officially the administration is going to have a tough time supporting it.
[00:08:22] Randall Roth: So you're generally sympathetic to what Ed Case is trying to do, you feel that that it's perhaps overly ambitious and and isn't going to at least quickly accomplish too much.
[00:08:35] Peter Apo: Yeah, it it has to come from the Hawaiian community, uh Randy. It's, you know, Hawaiians have kind of a cultural thing that that uh uh you have to be asked. You need to be asked when you go into uh someone else's. Uh you don't just come in, I mean and it's kind of a cultural thing. So, anytime a someone outside of the community, which is sometimes tough for non-Hawaiians to understand, uh come in with proposals and and uh and attempts to sort of quote save us, you know, uh people get very very irate.
[00:09:05] Randall Roth: Mhm. On the other hand, looking at this morning's full page ad, it seems to have brought together a whole bunch of concerned folks and maybe it's going to be a catalyst uh for getting the Hawaiian
[00:09:16] Peter Apo: I think that's one of the things Ed is hoping for, you know, is by forcing the dialogue. On the other hand, I've been hearing complaints from some Hawaiian leaders that it's it's another opportunity for Hawaiians to fight among themselves and that that's kind of a downside of of a proposal like this.
[00:09:32] Randall Roth: Well, when we talk about process, I think of uh Mr. Peter Adler here in the studio also with us this morning. Peter is the executive director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation. He's a well-known mediator and facilitator, and as he tells me, parent and husband, and homeowner and all sorts of uh of labels that we could put on Peter Adler.
[00:09:53] Randall Roth: Peter, the reason that I invited you here this morning, as you know, is that you and some others have been trying to bring together small groups of people, both Hawaiian, non-Hawaiian, to talk to one another, listen to one another, about their hopes, their fears, their thoughts, their feelings, about um these various issues that Peter Apo has just laundry listed for us. Uh I'll call them the Hawaiian issues. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been hearing from the many, many voices that have come together in these small gatherings?
[00:10:28] Peter Apo: Um, Randy, um I've been involved in three things that I think have brought myself and others just face to face with some of these very tough and hard issues that Peter Apo is raising. Um and one was a long string of meetings on the Big Island that involved uh the the future of hunting and pig hunting and conflicts with environmentalists and the state and so on again, uh with a with strong cultural issues and a second has been uh involved in the past study group discussions.
[00:10:55] Peter Apo: And the third, which you're referring to, is a series of meetings that were pulled together and sponsored by the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs and Charlie Rose has been instrumental in doing that. The Public Administration program at the University of Hawaii and the Society of Professionals in Dispute Resolution, which is a group of mediators, and it came about, this dialogue came about because we are convinced that there is not productive discussion going on. That the discussion, the public discourse, the public discussions on Hawaiian issues is uh destructive.
[00:11:29] Peter Apo: And not for everybody. We we know that there are people who who thrive on this kind of a discussion, but we seem to be not getting any traction on the issues, we're not making any progress on the issues.
[00:11:39] Randall Roth: On a on a societal level.
[00:11:40] Peter Apo: That's right, on a social level, and even on a political level, and on an economic level, and all the pieces that are are have been sort of brought up in the last 20 years in the Hawaiian Renaissance and the Hawaiian uh revolution that has been going on. So, Charlie, myself, Delores Foley, Bruce Kepler, uh said, let's see if we can't begin to quietly put together some discussions and bring together a group that would be composed of Hawaiians, half Hawaiian, half of the group Hawaiians, half non-Hawaiians.
[00:12:11] Peter Apo: And uh to see if we could sustain over a couple of sessions, a discussion about uh issues of culture and sovereignty and race and the future of the state and the future of relationships between Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians. And I have to say this is still experimental. We're still working on it, and we had one round, and it's very interesting what came out. I mean when you listen, as I I had a privilege myself and uh Mervina Kaaialii, who is a a wonderful, wonderful person, we were acting as facilitators for these discussions, and we were hearing lots of different kinds of things.
[00:12:45] Peter Apo: From the Hawaiians, we would hear uh that a hundred years of subjugation is on the table. That that there has been a hundred years of subjugation, and it's now time to talk about that. That there is a loss of culture, a loss of land. There is uh a kind of a a grieving and an anger that of what's happened, that we have an educated Hawaiian community who's not going to be passive and not going to be quiet. And there's a deep hurt and deep anger.
[00:13:12] Randall Roth: And and that, I think, was coming from more than just quote the radicals.
[00:13:16] Peter Apo: In other words, I sat in on some of these sessions, and people that you think of as being very moderate conservative individuals were saying these things. That's exactly right. And one of the one of the uh kind of texts and subtexts that is was there in those discussion was that not only do we have all these hurts and historical injustices, but all you guys, all you non-Hawaiians who are around the table are part of that. And you can see the the non-Hawaiians flinch. You can see them visibly flinch and say, wait a minute, I didn't do that. It wasn't me.
[00:13:49] Peter Apo: And and when you listen to the non-Hawaiians, what you begin to hear is a some sense that of of great hurt. There's a great hurt, and uh very often these are very good people. These are all people who are trying hard who could sustain that discussion, who who were saying, we know that there's a historical injustice. You have told us, you have made us aware of that in the last 10 years. We want to do something about it. Uh we're tired of being called Howlie, we're tired of being called names that seem to have a hard edge on them. We're tired of being dismissed. The same things that the Hawaiians are saying.
[00:14:20] Peter Apo: And and let's get on with it. Let's get on with some problem solving, some discussion, some negotiation, and let's stop wallowing in what starts to sound like a kind of a racist discourse on all sides.
[00:14:31] Randall Roth: And I mean, I can see that in in what Ed Case has done. Let's let's get this moving. In his article last week, the advertiser, he said there's a logjam. Let's let's break it up, let's get going.
[00:14:40] Peter Apo: Yeah, I'm I'm not a psychologist, but if I can just say, but, you know, [unintelligible — audio glitch] tenor of this has a lot uh is a kind of an echo of lots of other conversations that have happened around the world with native peoples and people who really come out of the colonial traditions. And that is that uh one group says, we're victims, and the other group says, we're not oppressors. And you're stuck in this endless loop of a conversation.
[00:15:03] Randall Roth: So the question is, how do we break out of it? Peter, [unintelligible — audio glitch] Peter, Peter Apo.
[00:15:07] Peter Apo: Peter, the idea for the for these forums came from who?
[00:15:11] Randall Roth: Uh Charlie Rose, Delores Foley, Bruce Kepler, myself, and again, the notion was, could we try to uh experimentally hold a couple of these. And if we succeeded, to take them out around the state. Not big big discussions, a little quiet.
[00:15:24] Peter Apo: What I think is significant is when people like Charlie Rose, who is a well-respected Hawaiian leader, begins to ask for dialogue with non-Hawaiians. This is significant. See, this is what has to happen. Hawaiians have to suggest that it's time for us to go talk to the Howlies. Let's go talk to these people. It's really important where the idea comes from and how it's generated. And, you know, I feel this more and more [unintelligible — audio glitch] because there certainly is a need for more dialogue directly, direct dialogue between the Hawaiian community, Hawaiian leaders, and the non-Hawaiian community, political, business.
[00:16:02] Peter Apo: And I do have the sense that that the timing is is beginning to be right for these kinds of in uh engagements to take place. And Peter, I think the more we do that, the more understanding there's going to be. That [unintelligible — audio glitch] has to be, you know, some passion involved and and some confrontation. I think it's going to be all part of a process that hopefully will eventually uh result in some really positive, a great future, you know, for Hawaii as we get Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians on the same train.
[00:16:31] Randall Roth: In case you're tuned in late, my name is Randy Roth, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm here in the studio with Peter Apo, who you just heard from a few seconds ago. Peter currently is special assistance to the governor in charge of Hawaiian affairs and culture and the arts. Also with me is Peter Adler, who is the executive director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation and a well-known local mediator and facilitator. If you have a question or a comment that you would like to share with us this morning, our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821.
[00:17:08] Randall Roth: Well, the name of Charlie Rose was raised several times in the last uh five or 10 minutes, and uh by no coincidence, I called Charlie this morning and asked him to be available by phone. Charlie is the first vice president of the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs and recently elected president of Ha Hawaii, which is the private successor to the Sovereignty Election Council. Charlie, can you hear me this morning?
[00:17:32] Peter Adler: Yes, I do. Good morning. Aloha.
[00:17:34] Randall Roth: Aloha.
[00:17:35] Peter Apo: Aloha, Charlie.
[00:17:36] Randall Roth: Charlie, um, you in my mind kind of straddle a a couple of different roles. This morning, on the one hand, you're a a leader in the Hawaiian community, on the other hand, along with brother Adler here, you've been trying your your best to get small groups of folks, Hawaiian and non-Hawaiian alike together to to listen and talk and share and all of that sort of thing. You've heard um uh the two Peters in the Adler Peter, the the two Peters in the studio, Peter Adler and Peter Apo share their thoughts this morning. What do you have to share with us before we go to our our lines?
[00:18:08] Peter Adler: Oh well, first of all, I'd like to uh uh express my appreciation for giving this opportunity to you know, speak to you and you're listening audience and uh my aloha to the two Peters who I know very well. Uh first of all, uh I'd like to emphasize that uh the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs which I am the first vice president of, uh has not met yet to discuss the case bill. The Board of Directors will be meeting on the 24th of January and I anticipate that they will be coming out with some kind of uh opposition on the case uh proposal.
[00:18:45] Peter Adler: Uh secondly, Ha Hawaii, which is under the newly elected president, is the entity that hopes to see that a convention of Native Hawaiians
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: and to discuss the issues of self-determination and sovereignty becomes a reality uh met on July 11th and discuss the case bill. And in my capacity as a president, I sent a letter to Mr. K indicating that we believe that his proposal is premature and that it conflicts with our objective to see that the convention of Hawaiians to discuss this matter well, becomes a reality. And the the comments of all the people that you've read and hear from the Hawaiian community are very upset with their case bill. In there, there's certain kind of findings that appear to be not supported at all from our perception by any kind of documented facts.
[00:19:54] Randall Roth: And one of that findings is that the majority of our Hawaiian people want to work within the framework or other state of Hawaii.
[00:20:03] Peter Apo: As opposed to creating some sort of sovereign entity.
[00:20:07] Randall Roth: And I don't know of any documentation to support that findings because we really haven't decided it.
[00:20:16] Peter Apo: Good point.
[00:20:17] Randall Roth: So the argument that I the position I'm trying to make is what we're trying to do is to provide for the first time an opportunity for all the Hawaiians to get together in our in some kind of a form. And our objective is to have delegates to the convention be selected by the communities that they represent. Not the civic clubs choosing. Not how Hawaii choosing, but the people in the communities. What does that mean in practical terms? What that means is that if you want to be a delegate to the convention, you must go amongst the people that you live with.
[00:20:58] Randall Roth: And you must persuade them that you can be the best person to represent their views. Now, to my perception, that is democracy at its purest level.
[00:21:08] Peter Apo: Sounds democratic to me. Charlie, can I ask you to shift gears just a little bit and now think in terms of the role you've been playing as a mediator facilitator along with Peter Adler. Um, what what have you been hearing? Peter described very briefly um, the sorts of things he's been hearing in these sessions. Um, anything different that you might share with us insight you have after listening to a lot of Hawaiian and non-Hawaiians in small groups talking to one another?
[00:21:37] Randall Roth: Well, I you know, I was very uh pleased to be a part of that effort and uh I hope that we can continue that. I don't know of any forum that had that kind of an an attempt to actually sit down and listen to people and the people, when I was there, I felt that the people there felt quite comfortable to say what they felt. A lot of times when you in this kind of a mixed environment, you're a little hello or a little afraid to say what you really feel.
[00:22:16] Randall Roth: But I thought there was a good blend first of all, we had a very good mixture. I like to, you know, compliment Peter and and Delores Foley for putting together the different individuals that came. And and what what I like to emphasize that what I would had hoped and I believe may have come out is there was a create an understanding between Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians. Understanding on the part of Hawaiians that as angry as you may be, not all the non-Hawaiians are against you. As angry as you may be, not all the non-Hawaiians are your enemies. That for the non-Hawaiians it is to think that not all Hawaiians hate you.
[00:23:06] Peter Apo: Kind of a similar message there. Hey, Charlie, um
[00:23:14] Peter Apo: uh one more thing before you go, would would you invite callers. We we don't have a person on the line yet, and I think part of that is that we've got a very sensitive topic here, and and I think especially non-Hawaiians oftentimes feel as though, and and for good reasons as as articulated by Peter Apo this morning, feel as though it's it's not their place to step forward and and be a part of this conversation. But I know from listening to you and Peter Adler in these smaller sessions that you feel that it is important that non-Hawaiians be a part of of the conversation. Um, would you please invite in in the appropriate way our our listeners, especially the non-Hawaiians, to um to give us a call and share their thoughts about what they're listening to?
[00:24:03] Randall Roth: Sure, I would encourage that. First of all, that's a whole key the the more often you have opportunity to talk and discuss maybe the more better your opportunity to arrive at uh agreeable kind of solutions. Randy, you know, I I wanted to I wanted to personally wish uh uh Charlie a all the Aloha in the world with Ha Hawaii. I believe that organization uh provides some real uh some real hope uh you know, as they move toward trying to design a process. You know, they're talking I think right now process is everything.
[00:24:39] Randall Roth: Uh the the as Charlie points out, the issues and [unintelligible — audio glitch] substance of decisions will be made uh correctly if the process is right. And I hope uh I hope Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians out there will rise to the occasion and and in their own ways, you know, try to support Ha Hawaii. I know they're in desperate need for some financial help, uh etcetera. But uh it's an important effort and it's um um they're looking to do the right thing.
[00:25:06] Peter Apo: Okay. That was Peter Apo and Charlie Rose, really appreciate uh your sharing your thoughts with us this morning.
[00:25:11] Randall Roth: Thank you very much.
[00:25:12] Peter Apo: You bet. That was Charlie Rose who is currently the first vice president of the Association of Hawaiian Civic clubs, and recently elected president of Ha Hawaii, which is the successor group to the Sovereignty Elections Council. Well, we've got a couple folks on the line. We have a few more open lines at 955-8821 and on a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. But first we go to Kanau Kamalii, who was one of our guests last week. Uh Kanau is a former state legislator and former trustee of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. Uh Kanau, good morning.
[00:25:46] Peter Adler: Good morning, Randy. Aloha to Peter, the two Peters.
[00:25:50] Randall Roth: Aloha.
[00:25:52] Peter Adler: Again, thank you for uh putting this uh forward in your radio program uh Randy. I want to make a few comments regarding the the coming together of individuals, whether they be non-Hawaiians or Hawaiians. As you know, over the past year, Hawaiians have gotten together. We needed to come together as Hawaiians so that we can discuss these very issues that is so rattling to to the entire state of Hawaii. But Hawaiians have to come together with each other to heal the hurts that have occurred within our own community. That has been accomplished in the last year.
[00:26:31] Peter Adler: And what has happened is that a of of all of these sorts and customs and traditionary rights have been written and are down on paper as to the principles and actions of of the Hawaiian people. Charlie Rose, uh Hawaiian Civic clubs, uh Kalahui, um all of these organizations have come together under the big tent at Kulua. I would predict that now that the PalaPala has been written by Hawaiians, that we are ready now to take this to the various organizations uh within the community and discuss this with the non-Hawaiians as to way we are coming from as as Hawaiians.
[00:27:15] Peter Adler: And from these uh principles and actions, I think we will be led down the right track as to where we want to want to be. There are many of us who want to move forward with the convention. Uh it is who is going to handle that convention in the process of it that still needs to be discussed. Uh so, Peter Adler, we are and we'll come together. Uh we did bar the press from our our meetings at Kualoa because it always appeared to us that all we saw on TV was us disagreeing with each other.
[00:28:10] Peter Adler: And we needed to get away from that kind of atmosphere, and we did walk with our people, our ancestors at Kulua. So, we're ready now, I think, for us to discuss the PalaPala with anyone who cares to hear what Hawaiians have done as Hawaiians. And I have given this PalaPala to Ed Case. Um, so I think he needs to uh read it and to understand where we're coming from. Uh, and I think there's still some very rough edges as to how the constitutional convention, if we do have one in the election of delegates [unintelligible — audio glitch] handled. It needs to be discussed. It needs to be discussed under the big tent again.
[00:28:35] Peter Apo: Okay. Um, Kinau, Peter Apo has something to say in in reaction to what he's listening to.
[00:28:45] Randall Roth: I actually a question, Kinau, uh [unintelligible — audio glitch] organization that that you so capably lead, are you in support of Hawaii and are you going to be uh a part of the the effort, is that part of a joint effort to for constitutional convention?
[00:28:58] Peter Adler: What we're saying is that we need Hawaii to come back under the tent and to discuss this with all of the organizations that are there. We have never done that, and I think that's one of the sore points of Hawaii is that the Homalu has not discussed the sovereignty issue in that sense of election of delegates and whether we have a constitutional convention. That process that leads up to the constitutional convention has not been uh discussed under the Homalu tent, and we need to do that.
[00:29:31] Randall Roth: So so Homalu is also concerned about process uh uh uh as separate from uh from substantive issues.
[00:29:39] Peter Adler: Exactly.
[00:29:40] Peter Apo: Okay. Well, when I hear the word process, I think of Mr. Peter Adler. We are a process our own. Plus Plus he's waving. Okay, Mr. Peter Adler. Plus he's waving at me over there. Kinau, what what one of the
[00:38:00] Randall Roth: We go to Steve from Manoa. Good morning, Steve.
[00:38:03] Peter Adler: Hi. Um, very quick and I'll just get off and listen. There's an issue in process which you've mentioned frequently here which, um, I've tried to get people to address and they- and it seems to be too hot button an issue for people to really address. If you're going to have a process of dialogue, then you're going to have to designate where the boundary is. I mean, if it's a process between people who say, "Hawaiians, we're Hawaiians," and people say, "We're not," or designated as not, then somewhere along the line you got to know which is which. And I don't think the line has been made clear enough for the law itself to accommodate, especially since the, in the end of the conversation we're talking about the disposition of large amounts of land, money, and power. That, the bottom line is land, money, and power. And, uh, they're going, frequently in these dialogues, there are obviously people who, uh, [unintelligible — audio glitch] are not only self-designated as Hawaiian, but who are very obviously, you know, completely in that community, and always have been. The question is when you get to the edges. When you get the edges where people according to at least, uh, some definitions, I think the OHA definition is to have had an ancestor in Hawaii before seven, 1780s.
[00:39:19] Randall Roth: But- but the point is that- that who's Hawaiian is a crucial question.
[00:39:22] Peter Adler: It's a very crucial question and everybody skirts around it. Everybody avoids it, and- and for the rest of us it's very hard to know what what's going to come out of it. Let me get a couple of quick reactions to that to that first. I'll- I'll I'll cut off and just listen to you because your engineer has been piping in some other station on the on the line.
[00:39:38] Randall Roth: Well, that's not intentional. We apologize for that.
[00:39:39] Peter Adler: No, I- I think it's an accident. Okay. Peter Adler.
[00:39:42] Peter Apo: Steve, I think you're, uh, absolutely right that one of the- one of the problems again that I hear in these mediated and facilitated conversations on sometimes on very on-point issues, you know, real focused issues, is that it's not clear who is viewed as Hawaiian and who is not. And again, this is, uh, you know, a question to the Hawaiian community. But I want to disagree with you on, uh, Steve on one of your points, and that is that the bottom line isn't about land and power and money. That I think Peter Appo said the bottom line is about dignity. Now those are- those may become attributes of that, but it is not the totality. And again, one of the things I've learned in our conversations is that at least those who come from Western traditions want to go to the bottom line very quickly and the bottom line tends to be economic, and that's not viewed that way. So again, there's a tremendous area where there's discussion is needed.
[00:40:32] Randall Roth: Mhm. On the non-Hawaiian side, there might be more focus on what earlier was referred to as- as substance, whereas on the Hawaiian side you're saying maybe process in the long run is- is more important than what actually gets decided.
[00:40:43] Peter Apo: That's right. It may be.
[00:40:45] Peter Apo: Yeah, I- I would agree. The- the- the- the subject of dignity is- is a major one. And it's one, again, as I said earlier, it's hard to articulate. When you take the state's number one economic engine, industry, tourism, uh- Hawaiian culture is a condiment to that industry at this point. This is very unsettling to Hawaiians. So, you know, while it is economically, uh, uh, uh, uh- rooted, it is their dignity that- that- that gets- uh- that gets stepped on. Uh- Hawaiians are never asked uh- uh- uh- to stage- how to stage a show, you know? They're- they're told what to do. Uh- the- the things that occur in most of the hotels is some food and beverage director's idea of what the culture, how the culture ought to be presented. If you leave it to Hawaiians, they will not only come up with a better product, they'll come up with something that has some spirituality, that really creates a major quality visitor experience. That is largely absent from the state's number one industry. So it's a matter of dignity. It has nothing to do with money or getting our share of the tourism pie. It's being able to- to practice a culture and to be respected uh- for what we are, which is the host culture. The question is it- had been posed to me at one point, which I thought was interesting, can you imagine a tourism industry- a Hawaii without Hawaiians?
[00:42:04] Randall Roth: Yeah, tell me, Peter Appo, if- if I've got this right. Part of- of what I think I'm hearing is that those folks who would say, "Get the economy up and running, get it stronger, and then address these Hawaiian issues," what I think I hear you saying is that if we're going to have a strong economy, it has to have at its core, um, Hawaiian culture where the Hawaiians have this this dignity that we've been talking about.
[00:42:26] Peter Apo: Fundamental for 21st century.
[00:42:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Let's go to another caller. Uh- Hoku from Waimanalo. Good morning, Hoku.
[00:42:32] Ed Case: Good morning. Um, I'm a howlie. And something that was said earlier [unintelligible — audio glitch] prompted me to call in was, was the fact that they said that the Hawaiians said that they're victims and the howlies said they're not oppressors. But, but I think as long as as the howlies continue this um, exclusion of the Hawaiian people from the government and from the decision-making, we still are oppressors. And I think it's time that that- that we really look at that and- and that we do set things right. And it is going to be costly for the- for the howlie community, but is it as costly as 100 years of oppression? I'm- I'm not sure about that.
[00:43:12] Randall Roth: Okay. Hoku, we appreciate your comment this morning.
[00:43:15] Ed Case: Thank you.
[00:43:15] Randall Roth: We go to James on Maui. Good morning, James.
[00:43:18] Speaker 3: Good morning.
[00:43:19] Randall Roth: You're on the air.
[00:43:21] Speaker 3: I'm wondering if you've uh- are you familiar with Hawaii's story by Hawaii's Queen?
[00:43:27] Randall Roth: Uh- which one?
[00:43:29] Speaker 3: The- the Liliuokalani.
[00:43:31] Randall Roth: Mhm. Go ahead, James.
[00:43:33] Speaker 3: The book called Hawaii's story by Hawaii's Queen. Right. And in this book on page 354, she gives her official protest to the treaty that's uh- purporting to give Hawaii to the United States back in 1897 or eight it was. And on the bottom line of that uh- official protest, she says to the Almighty ruler of the universe. To him who judgeeth righteously I commit my cause. Now what I'm suggesting is there's a spiritual solution to the resolution of this and every other problem on Earth. And it has to do with the will of God and the love of God and the truth of God because we all exist in relation to God and every man, woman, and child on Earth is a child of God. We're all equal spiritually. And we all need a new form of government of the people, by the people, and for the people of the world. Okay. I'd like to see Hawaii become the capital of that new form of government, world government, for all the people of the world so we can be free and have political freedom and spiritual freedom, economic freedom and a whole new way of- of life.
[00:44:35] Randall Roth: James, I want to get a- James, hold on. Hold on. I want to get a reaction to what you're saying from Peter Appo.
[00:44:40] Peter Apo: I think what James is saying is very important, uh- Randy and Peter. The- there- there is an element of spirituality within the Hawaiian community. Not all of it is Christian, but much of it is Christian. As we know, there is a whole body of uh- of cultural work that sprung from the Christian tradition, you know, that is in Hawaiian. Um- it is an element in- in- in the Hawaiian Renaissance that is often not given enough attention. Last year when the native uh- when Senate bill 8, which attempted to sort of change the law on native gathering rights, surfaced, for the first time we had a new constituency appear at the- at the state capitol. The Halaus, the Hula Halaus of the state came. Now, if- if there's any spirituality in Hawaii at all, it comes through the Halaus. And I got to tell you, Randy, when they brought those Pahu drums and set up in the state capitol, and started their chanting, the spirituality permeated every corner of that building. I mean, it made the concrete shake. It was chicken skin time.
[00:45:38] Randall Roth: It was chicken skin time.
[00:45:40] Peter Apo: It was chicken skin and it was- it was just chanting. Uh- so there was no- very little English dialogue, but the message was very clear. So this whole- uh- notion of spirituality, I think, eventually, the hope is that it will carry through through the whole uh- concept of Aloha and become something global. Uh- you know, the jury's out on whether it's going to be a Christian-driven thing or not. But the idea of- of- of a higher being and- and- and their things uh- about the Hawaiian culture and about humanity in general that need to be more important than money and land and, etcetera, is very important.
[00:46:18] Randall Roth: Okay. James, thank you for your call this morning. We really appreciate it. Uh- we have Mahealani on Molokai. Good morning, Mahealani.
[00:46:26] Speaker 3: Hi. Good morning. Good morning, Peter. Aloha.
[00:46:28] Peter Apo: Hey. Aloha.
[00:46:29] Speaker 3: Hi. Um, someone called earlier and was asking, "Where are the boundaries?" you know, for dividing assets out of the um- state of Hawaii inventory. Um- there is a treaty that exists between the state and the Hawaiian people and to extract those parts of the state constitution and state statutes that refer to our people and the relationship the state shall have with us, and trust obligations and such, we extract those things out of the state Palapala, and there is the treaty that exists, um- in the present state of things in Hawaii. Um, when we are right now designing a structure for sovereignty, and I- I'm really offended by Mr. Case's bill that is disrupting the process. It's our process, not his, and we are going through this and it- it doesn't seem right that this disruption of his, you know, thank you very much, it was parts of it was, uh- good ideas, you know, to form a corporation, and that idea has been talked about amongst ourselves as well. But he doesn't need to sit down and design it for us. Our designs and our decisions are based on a perspective that is quite different from the Western perspective and thus you have the conflicts you do have because of the- the lack of understanding of one culture of the other culture. Um, we're looking at like the Indian people, seven generations forward when we're making decisions, and I think as Hawaiians we also tend to look seven generations back for guidance. When we sit in council, the Kupuna are- they are present with us. When we speak. This is different from sitting at a table in the legislature and discussing things over that table. We have a treaty, a very clear treaty with the state of Hawaii and um, the idea of Case's bill for an act that says, "Well, here's the solution," which eliminates all the responsibility the state has, um- that's not Pono. That is not Pono and it seems like the state is trying to, uh, disarray things so that it's so complicated, there's only one simple solution which is theirs. The Hawaiian people are determining sovereignty and the structure and design it will take, and um, Ed Case, we don't need his help. We need the people to sit down in council together as Peter and Kinau have said, um, it's a process that isn't, you know, it's a difficult process to set up a nation. That's hard work.
[00:48:53] Randall Roth: Mahealani, we- we're going to have to move on. I really appreciate your call this morning.
[00:48:56] Speaker 3: Thank you and Aloha to all you folks.
[00:48:58] Randall Roth: Aloha Mahealani. You know, I- I- I feel like, uh, like just slipping in here. I- I personally, and- and Peter Appo, maybe you can comment on this. Um, you know, I hold Ed Case in very high regard. I see him as a extremely well-intentioned hard-working legislator and he's getting really beat up on this and maybe, maybe for a good reason, I don't know, but if nothing else, it's served as a real catalyst for a conversation and I personally believe strongly in- in conversation. But I'm curious if- if you could say a few things about Ed and- and why you think he's doing this? Because I think some folks have the impression he's trying to cram something down the- the collective throat of the Hawaiian community and- and- and that's not the Ed Case I know.
[00:49:35] Peter Apo: My read is this. My read is, one, Ed is not afraid of controversy. Two, I think he expected, uh- uh- he expected the slings and arrows [unintelligible — audio glitch] are that are coming his way. They're flying. Uh- yeah, they're flying. I- I don't think he was- uh- he was at all, he's at all surprised at what is happening. Uh- I think that- I don't think he has any intention, and again, I- I'm not Ed Case, but my guess is that he has any intention of chairing the- uh- the Committee on Hawaiian Affairs, and he wants to leave feeling that he made some kind of a contribution. Um- he's very frustrated in as he keeps putting it, uh- with the lack of any effort to connect the dots. So I think this is his- his- his last best shot at trying to create a forum and a dialogue, uh- uh- to connect the dots and to- to- create a political landscape where- uh- the left hand and the right hand are- are working toward the same solution. Unfortunately, uh- absent any kind of process, it doesn't matter, you know, how meritorious the- the effort might be, or the bill might be, uh- it's dead on arrival.
[00:50:43] Randall Roth: Okay. Okay. Enough said. Let's go to Dick and Iaia. Good morning, Dick.
[00:50:48] Speaker 3: Yes, I- welcome the opportunity and particularly I'm relieved to hear Peter Appo, my old friend, and his peacemaking comments. I was quite troubled last week, uh- with this terrible element of almost hostility and I'm glad. I really felt sorry for Ed Case. I came here about 40 years ago as a pastor of a native Hawaiian church and I attended a Hawaiian, uh- association, church, Hawaiian churches and the subject came up, "Would our Howley be accepted in this group?" and the Kahu AKaka, so of course he would be. But that was the last I even mentioned, even indicated that I was there. So this problem is not new. Uh- Howleys are outsiders, but the truth is we are here, and the legislature and the government's here and I'm so glad that with the efforts being made by you, uh- uh- and those, your guest today, to- to bring a- a better understanding and I agree that the Hawaiians must take the leadership, the initiative on this issue. I also want to make one other brief comment, uh- I attended a Race Relations Institute about 35 years ago and a famous Doctor, long, black Af- Afro-American, excuse me, gave a story, the unanswerable question to get into heaven and the and Einstein and all the others failed, but then a black man came up and said, "When are the blacks going to get together?" And I had the feeling, oh, he got into heaven by the way, I had the feeling somewhat there are so many different struggles among the Hawaiian community to for leadership. And I'm glad that the tent is taking hold and there is progress because I think this is fundamental to resolving the problem. But I also think this program and all the other efforts are moving in the right direction, so I want to thank you, Randy and Peter, and the two Peters. I think, my goodness, it's a good combination you got. We're related by first names.
[00:52:51] Randall Roth: Dick, thanks a lot for your call. We really appreciate it this morning. Well, we've got time for- for one more call and then I- I want to save some time to let the two Peters in the studio. We have Peter Adler, who's the executive director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation, and also, a mediator and facilitator. And earlier, I said, uh- local mediator, facilitator, he's president of the national organization, very well known outside of Hawaii. And also, we have, uh- Peter Appo, who currently is a special assistant to Governor Cayetano, uh- kind of the front person so far as Hawaiian affairs and culture and the arts for the administration are concerned. Peter, uh- has been a trustee of OHA, he's been, uh- member of the state legislature for 12 years as a matter of fact. He's done, uh- just a host of things. Chair of the Waimanalo Neighborhood Board, and uh- could go on, but, uh- I won't because of- of time constraints. We're talking about, um- well, I guess we're talking about a lot of different things, and this conversation was, was triggered by a bill that Ed Case is uh- has planned to submit in this year's legislature called the Native Hawaiian Autonomy Act, and uh- basically, it would attempt in a- in a very a big-picture fashion to take a host of Hawaiian issues and- and connect the dots as um, as Peter Appo has described it a couple of times this morning. Well, we have time for one more call from a listener. Let's go to Grant from Kailua. Good morning, Grant.
[00:54:15] Speaker 3: Good morning. Um, as a non-Hawaiian, uh- living paycheck to paycheck, uh- I've got three fears that I wanted to put forward. One is on the sovereignty issue, that's what's it going to cost me in the end, uh- when everybody gets together. Um, the other fear is government encroaching. I want to see uh- our government being forced to keep its promises. The third fear is um- uh- if I were Hawaiian, I wouldn't want to be uh- labeled by the federal government as a- uh- native American because, uh- I'm afraid the federal government will set up a reservation in Arizona with twice the size of Hawaii, ship all the, uh- people who identify themselves as Hawaiian to Arizona, and uh- um- that will- uh- that will be their typical way of handling Native Americans. Thanks.
[00:55:05] Randall Roth: Thank you, Grant.
[00:55:06] Peter Apo: Thank you. You know, um, Peter Appo, one of the things that- that Grant raised is what's this going to cost uh- everybody who is a citizen of- of this state. And I think there are- there are a lot of concerns especially from- from non-Hawaiians Sure. that some sort of- of proposal is going to be created by the Hawaiian community and as viewed by others it's going to be unrealistic and then you've got dashed expectations and then you've got real conflict and there's this sense that- that if it's going to be something that everyone can eventually buy into then everyone needs to be a part of the development of it and it's kind of a circular sort of thing. What's your reaction to those voices that you hear? First of all, the reality is any- any form of sovereignty, even nation within nation, the most modest form of sovereignty is going to require at least a constitutional amendment at the state level. So the bottom line is that all the voters of the state will have to ratify any kind of agreement. If the sovereignty model that- that gets proposed uh- involves- uh- changing- uh- congressional- uh- actions, then it's going to have to be ratified by the Congress. So, so non-Hawaiians who are fearful that Hawaiians are going to design something that- the- uh- uh- uh- that cuts them out of the pie or that does injustice to them need not fear because they will have a vote, uh- in that issue.
[00:56:20] Randall Roth: What about this fear that- that it's going to be, quote, too expensive?
[00:56:25] Peter Apo: I don't think so. Uh- uh- this is why I keep harping on the on the question of process. I believe if the process plays itself out, what we will eventually see is a- is a- is a- is a Hawaiian community that is going to come up with a proposal that is one inclusive. Somehow everyone is going to get included as a beneficiary of a- of a new nation or a new sovereignty model because it makes sense. Because, by using the- the- by taking advantage of the Hawaiian window, I think Hawaiians themselves will eventually and creating a new economy, a new political
[00:57:00] Peter Apo: dynamic in the state. And I believe even retaining US citizenship and staying within the current uh structure in uh responding to the to the the need for us to be part of the federal constitution. I think we're going to there is a potential here for a tremendous new society that is inclusive. My concern is that absent process and if in fact uh uh the process that is not allowed to play itself out and the ideas don't come from the Hawaiian community, that you're going to end up after the year 2000 with a hostile host.
[00:57:34] Peter Apo: One way or another, the train has left the station with OHA with all these other entitlements, and there is a [unintelligible — audio glitch] Hawaiians are going to be part of this Hawaiian future.
[00:57:43] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, what process keeps coming up and and just so our listeners know, Peter Adler tends to be a part of of just about any sort of gathering. When we did Pop 94, he was in charge of our community conferences. Uh, you were the facilitator for the economic revitalization task force gatherings. Uh you did the advertisers Hawaii Tomorrow and long, long list. Process is something that you spent a lifetime studying and and doing. Um what are your thoughts?
[00:58:11] Peter Apo: Well, I couldn't agree more. I I think that there's a big challenge here, and it's a challenge that is has been faced and continues to be faced in other parts of the world, whether we're talking about the Middle East, whether we're talking about Ireland, whether we're talking about many places where thing bad things have happened in the past and people are currently upset.
[00:58:28] Peter Apo: And the question I keep pondering myself is, how do we begin to rectify some of these terrible historical injustices without creating a new round of injustices, without taking it out of the hide of the current people. And somehow, I mean it's a very tough issue. And and uh you know, I think that's the challenge. The challenge is there.
[00:58:50] Peter Apo: I'm I'm troubled by [unintelligible — audio glitch] slipping into a racism that's going on here in which somehow native Hawaiians are viewed as good because they have a a, you know, an honorable past and somehow haoles are bad because they have a dishonorable past. I'm really, I think that's hurting us. We're we're getting hurt by that. It doesn't promote dialogue. Maybe it by having a common enemy somehow it promotes coming to a position. But I I tell you, there are high costs to that.
[00:59:20] Peter Apo: I think Ed Case's bill, the PASH discussion, water rights issues, gives us a focal point. It gives us traction points where we can start to have that discussion. But the challenge here is going to be to build a political center that involves Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians. And right now, [unintelligible — audio glitch] does not exist. I think to do that, there's three things, Randy. It's not one thing. It's not just process. I think we've got, we must have a strong, substantive product that we are aspiring to do. And I, when I say we, I'm talking about Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians. There has to be a strong piece, substantively, we can't just talk about our values and visions.
[00:59:54] Peter Apo: Second thing is, we have to have a modicum of good relationships. At the minimum, there has to be civility, and if it really works, there's going to be aloha. So somewhere between civility and aloha, we have to have relationships that allow us to have the conversation and then we have to have a very, very good process that is jointly engineered.
[01:00:13] Randall Roth: Peter Apo, what do you think about that?
[01:00:15] Peter Apo: I think he's right.
[01:00:19] Randall Roth: Well, I do too and that just kind of leaves us. let's move on with it.
[01:00:24] Peter Apo: You know, in in all seriousness, and I I was brought up to to ask the question, okay, what next? Who does it? How does it happen? Um Peter Adler, I I think I think it will happen, just personally, I think it will happen in in it will start in a small way. It will probably start on the periphery of the conversation by Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians who are not right now talking.
[01:00:44] Peter Apo: They will come together and begin to figure out the substantive product, figure out [unintelligible — audio glitch] relationships, and figure out the process. I think it's there. The political chemistry is starting to mature so we can begin to do that. Now where it's going to, you know, it's sort of like asking which molecule is going to boil first when you boil water. Who knows? We don't know. But I think we're close to it.
[01:01:03] Randall Roth: It it might happen during this legislative session in the context of talking about this autonomy bill, or it might be something far removed from that. That's right. That's right.
[01:01:12] Peter Apo: Both Peter and I have been involved in in some very productive discussions on PASH, a quiet, safe refuge of discussion, a study group in the midst of a storm.
[01:01:20] Randall Roth: And let me insert just in a parenthetical here, PASH, for those who don't know, it has to do with native Hawaiian gathering rights and we're going to be doing a show on that either next week or the week after that. Tell us a little bit about that study group and then continue on with your thoughts.
[01:01:33] Peter Apo: Well, just just briefly, I mean, we know there's lots of political storms around the the question of gathering, traditional and customary gathering rights, but here's been a study group that has been sitting down and sustained a discussion, not did a hit and run, not did a drive by, but really sustained a discussion over the last six months and is about to produce an intellectual product, a good piece of work that I think will take the conversation further. That's the thing that needs to happen on the sovereignty question.
[01:01:58] Randall Roth: And these are people who philosophically are wide apart. And and basically in terms of what each would like to see, they're wide apart.
[01:02:05] Peter Apo: And they've all been on this show. But no, in all seriousness, they they listen to one another, they they patiently explain their position, uh and they came out with something that that most people feel is is a real constructive, uh addition to this, uh, this process. They they fight clean. That's what they do. They have a clean fight.
[01:02:23] Randall Roth: Peter Apo, can we kind of boil it down to that, fight clean?
[01:02:26] Peter Apo: Fight clean.
[01:02:27] Randall Roth: Fight clean. Okay, be vigilant and fight clean. Folks, you've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. Uh our producer is Susie Roth, our Director of Operations at Public Radio is Jeff Ilarry. With me in the studio this morning was Peter Adler, the Executive Director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation and uh also Peter Apo, who is the Governor's point person so far as Hawaiian affairs and culture and the arts are concerned. By phone, we had Charlie Rose, who's the first vice president of the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs and President of Haa Hawaii, the uh successor to the Sovereignty Elections Council. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
[01:02:07] Randall Roth: But no, in all seriousness, they listened to one another, they patiently explained their position, and they came out with something that most people feel is a real constructive addition to this process.
[01:02:20] Peter Apo: They fight clean.
[01:02:21] Randall Roth: That's what they do. They have a clean fight.
[01:02:23] Peter Adler: Peter Apo, can we kind of boil it down to that? Fight clean?
[01:02:26] Peter Apo: Fight clean.
[01:02:27] Randall Roth: Fight clean. Okay. Be vigilant and fight clean. Folks, you've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Our producer is Susie Roth, our Director of Operations at Public Radio is Jeff Ilardy. With me in the studio this morning was Peter Adler, the Executive Director of the Hawaii Justice Foundation, and also Peter Apo, who is the Governor's point person so far as Hawaiian affairs and culture are concerned. By phone, we had Charlie Rose, who is the first vice president of the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs and president of Ha Hawaii, the successor to the Sovereignty Elections Council. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
[01:04:31] Speaker 3: [unintelligible — audio glitch]