Hawaii's Political Culture of Going Along to Get Along
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-08-18
Guests: Jack Myers (real estate developer); Bob Dye (former Fasi administration official)
Duration: 1:04:44

[00:00:04] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that supports grassroots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Our topic today, Hawaii's political culture, has to do with the way people in business deal with people in government and vice versa. Page B1 of today's Honolulu advertiser contains a series of unattributed quotes relating to today's topic. These are comments made at either of two meetings. On the left side of the page are those from a gathering of business executives.
[00:00:49] Randall Roth: Those on the right side came from a meeting with government insiders. By government insider, I mean someone who holds or has held a high position in government. These meetings were suggested by longtime business and civic leader, Herb Cornell, as a way to kickstart a public conversation about Hawaii's political culture. With me in the studio today to discuss these comments as well as our topic itself, are Jack Myers and Bob Die. Jack is chairman and CEO of the Myers Corporation, a development company that he started 22 years ago. His company has completed a variety of real estate developments including office buildings, hotels, recreational and industrial projects. Jack's firm is just now finishing First Hawaiian Center, a new headquarters for First Hawaiian Bank, which will open in just a couple of months.
[00:01:41] Randall Roth: Currently, Jack's company is working on producing a new class of high quality but more affordable housing, particularly in Honolulu's urban core. One Archer Lane, a 331 unit, $106 million condominium under construction currently on King Street, is one such project. Bob Die worked for Frank Fossi when he was a Democrat as his executive assistant. Bob also is a former administrative assistant to Congressman Seef Heftel. He's an editor of Hawaii Chronicles, recently published by UH press and the author of Merchant Prince of the Sandalwood Mountains, which is in press right now and scheduled for spring release. Jack and Bob, good morning.
[00:02:24] Jack Myers: Good morning.
[00:02:26] Randall Roth: The phrase we're using to describe our focus today, Hawaii's political culture is a little bit hard to get a hold of. To let the two groups of of leaders, business leaders in one gathering and political insiders in the other, to let them know what we meant by the term, we began each of those meetings by reading a list of questions. Let me read just a couple of those questions to give you a flavor for what we were shooting for. Our most recent candidates for governor raised more money per voter than did their counterparts in any other state. To what do you attribute this feat? What does it mean? How do you think business leaders in Hawaii, or do you think business leaders in Hawaii are more hesitant to publicly criticize political leaders than are their counterparts in other states?
[00:03:13] Randall Roth: And then another question, some companies work hard to establish and maintain ties with political insiders. Some people believe this may have paid off through sweetheart procurement contracts or in other ways. What do you think? Well, again, that's just a a series of questions that are designed to give you a feel for what we mean when we use the phrase Hawaii's political culture. Bob Dye, you're a former political insider and currently a political commentator. You weren't at either of these two meetings, but you've had an opportunity to look at all the quotes that appear in this morning's advertiser. Any reaction to it?
[00:03:50] Bob Dye: Yeah, I think there's truth in everything everyone said and I really congratulate the people for their candor.
[00:03:55] Randall Roth: I was kind of unexpected to me at least that they were as as candid as they as they were.
[00:04:01] Bob Dye: Yeah, me too.
[00:04:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Um Jack, any reaction to the the quotes in the paper this morning?
[00:04:07] Jack Myers: Well, it's it's hard to argue um with the kinds of comments that were made. I think for the most part these sorts of phrases or or quotes would be familiar to people in the private and the public sector.
[00:04:21] Randall Roth: Um Bob, any one quote that appears in the paper this morning from either the meeting with the business executives or the political insiders that you thought was particularly insightful that in your opinion really captured something that goes to the heart of our political culture in Hawaii?
[00:04:38] Bob Dye: No leadership.
[00:04:40] Randall Roth: No leadership in either sector?
[00:04:42] Bob Dye: Either sector.
[00:04:43] Randall Roth: Why wouldn't we have leadership? And I assume you mean less leadership than what other states have.
[00:04:49] Bob Dye: Well, I'm not sure about other states because I don't live there, but I think that uh in comparison to what we used to have, that there's a great lack of leadership in the uh both the private and the public sector.
[00:05:01] Randall Roth: Jack, any reaction to that?
[00:05:04] Jack Myers: Well, yeah, so I I think that the leadership is always an important issue on both sides. I mean, you can't have uh it's not easy to point fingers um at uh just government and say that's where the problem is. There's no leadership. I think we have to depend on people in the private sector to also step up and take the lead on these issues. And I think that's pretty much what was uh probably in Herb's mind in trying to to um initiate this program of questions and answers and a dialogue between government and business.
[00:05:38] Randall Roth: Now, you weren't at the the meeting of business executives uh at that meeting and it was the second of the two meetings, I told them that the government insiders, the political insiders had uh as a group pretty much felt that that business leaders had had been quote, a gutless crew that they hadn't really stood up and taken positions on things in the community. The impression I got at the meeting with the business executives was that they said, well, that's because of Hawaii's political culture, there are very good reasons why we can't pop our head up too high. What do you think?
[00:06:14] Jack Myers: Well, uh I agree. I think that um the the system uh that we have to deal with uh here in Honolulu or in Hawaii is set up so that it uh it creates kind of a suffocating environment for business. Uh there have been people who have been outspoken about uh the system um uh over time, but by and large, um uh it's it's a pretty hostile environment. It's gotten better, I think in in some ways, but it's a pretty hostile environment to speak out and and single yourself out as a uh champion of a particular cause in the private sector.
[00:06:56] Randall Roth: One theme that seems to seem to come through especially the meeting with the business executives was that they are so dependent upon having good relations with government and the rug can be pulled out from them so easily that they simply have to to go along, they have to get along in order to uh to survive in Hawaii. Bob Dye, any reaction to that?
[00:07:20] Bob Dye: Well, that's certainly the perception. I'm not so sure that that many people get the rug pulled out from under them, but I think that uh sometimes taxes get thrown in their path.
[00:07:31] Randall Roth: You know, one of the the quotes from the meeting with the political insiders, uh and I'll just read the whole quote, it says no question about it. Many business leaders fear retaliation. That's what keeps the contributions coming and virtually eliminates public criticism of government. Quite frankly, in some cases, that fear is warranted, but it's way overblown. I read that quote in the meeting with the business executives and they were listening um very closely for the the whole quote and then right at the end when I said, but it's way overblown, spontaneously all of them laughed. They said, right, it's overblown. The impression I got was that they think it's not overblown at all. Jack, what do you think?
[00:08:15] Jack Myers: Well, uh I think that the the concept uh is is um uh genuine. I mean, there is clearly a situation where uh people in the private sector have a hard time dealing with the fact, I mean, we're a very isolated economy, we're a very isolated environment. And and uh speaking out on particular issues and uh taking on um um uh a very strong political force or political will um and breaking with traditions is just complicated. And I think people in business fear that um doing that is going to somehow run interference with uh their plans for a business in the future. And so what happens I think is rather than being outspoken about it is people tend to uh rely on more subtle ways of dealing with issues.
[00:09:20] Jack Myers: And that would be um, you know, negotiations or special agreements or what have you that tend to compromise in my mind both sides of the uh the spectrum.
[00:09:32] Randall Roth: So they're focusing hard at at working out their own concerns, but not necessarily standing up and taking a position on the bigger issue of just how it is a government and business relates to one another.
[00:09:43] Jack Myers: That's correct. I think it's a kind of a piecemeal approach.
[00:09:46] Randall Roth: Um Bob, something that I don't know if it's unique to Hawaii or not, but I know in in the past, there's been almost a tradition of business leaders contributing to every viable candidate. When you have candidates for governor, if somebody's got a chance of winning, there's some businesses that will contribute to each one. To me, and maybe I'm wrong, the the basic theory is that they don't want to have not supported the person who ends up winning. Is that right?
[00:10:15] Bob Dye: Yeah, I think that's right. I think that the the reason that uh more money was collected by our per capita by our gubernatorial candidates last time speaks to that point that uh each candidate got from each contributor or each businessman, because each one at some point in the campaign looked like a possible winner.
[00:10:35] Randall Roth: Well, or a potential winner in an in a coming campaign.
[00:10:38] Bob Dye: I mean that's not just this election as you look ahead to the election beyond that.
[00:10:43] Randall Roth: Jack, I notice you're you're agreeing with that.
[00:10:45] Jack Myers: Well, nobody uh nobody wants to be um um kind of hanging out there and I think they they politicians are just as guilty of this as the the private sector. Is uh it's not unfamiliar to some to go out and check the list of who contributed to to um uh the opposition candidate and then go call on that contributor and say, what about me? And I think people in the private sector are in private sector and intimidated by that that uh technique and don't want to be caught short. So, basically, they're covering both bets.
[00:11:22] Bob Dye: I think that the one of the problems if I can just interject it here is that the the model we use here is agonistic. It's one side against the other side, the government side against the business side, and it should be cooperative. And in a cooperative model, I don't think you would have nearly the uh the motivation to shake down developers or for developers to bend over for the candidate.
[00:11:47] Randall Roth: Jack, what do you think about that?
[00:11:49] Jack Myers: Well, I think that's been uh the hope and desire and dream of everyone in the private sector for a long time and and uh the the notion or concept of having a cooperative environment between the the business and political leaders of this community to take advantage of what it is that we could grow in this community relative to healthy economies, better educational systems, better uh standards of life, uh more opportunities, uh that's what's being sacrificed by the adversarial uh relationship that exists.
[00:12:25] Randall Roth: You know, Jack, I mentioned that that you weren't at the meeting that I had with business executives, but I did have a chance to to chat with you before today's radio show. And you mentioned that that you'll get away from Hawaii sometimes many thousands of miles away and sometimes find somebody maybe an investment banker on Wall Street or somebody out there who will have stories to tell about uh political culture in Hawaii that um I don't know it it it it almost kind of seems like a a shakedown of sorts that uh a developer, let's say in in Hawaii, has um well, gone through what some people might perceive as a form of extortion. What do you think?
[00:13:05] Jack Myers: Well, uh I have witnessed firsthand if I could um focus on a recent incident right, you know, having to do with raising a lot of capital for a new project. The prejudice or biases that exist in the capital markets against Hawaii. Uh not that they want to believe it uh or have that or hold that attitude, but rather it is their attitude because they've heard stories, they've seen it firsthand of the way business and capital is treated in Hawaii. It's very hostile environment and when someone sitting in Los Angeles or Chicago or New York can make a decision about investing capital and they have a very friendly environment in Minneapolis or a very hostile environment in Honolulu, what do you think they would do?
[00:13:51] Jack Myers: So on that on that level, I think it's a a very genuine situation. I've also witnessed, you know, situations where business or or investment uh sponsors have come to this community and talked to political leaders. Um, I'm happy to say uh in in this particular instance, there was a former political leader who basically intimidated these people and told them what they were going to have to do if they're going to come over here and be a part of this community and compete with people who've been around here for a long time.
[00:14:20] Randall Roth: Here's the price you have to pay. Here's what you got to chip in to to our side of.
[00:14:25] Jack Myers: And and people are incredulous about that.
[00:14:28] Randall Roth: Yeah. Bob Dye, where do we go from here? It it seems as though you and Jack and and the people who attended these two meetings seem to be saying there is something wrong with Hawaii's political culture. And rather than just uh keep kicking that, um how do we make it right? What steps would be taken and who would take that first step?
[00:14:48] Bob Dye: Well, I think that the you have to have leadership. If leadership comes out and proposes a plan that the people agree to, then you call the all the parties together and you uh figure out how you can cooperate to accomplish that. And it doesn't seem to be a difficult thing, other nations use it. I live part of the year in Ireland and Ireland's been using that much and their economy's growing uh 6% gross national product regularly and has for a number of years now, and it's healthy. The the whole country's looking better, feeling better. And here, I notice just the opposite is happening.
[00:15:26] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. We're here talking about Hawaii's political culture with Jack Myers, who's the Chairman, CEO of the Myers Corporation and Bob Dye, a one-time high level member of the Fossi administration and currently a political commentator. If you'd like to join in the conversation, our phone number is 955-8821, or if you're on a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. Again, our topic is Hawaii's political culture and if you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. Well, um
[00:16:09] Jack Myers: Can I uh uh Randy, just just to follow on to Bob's comment about what can be done. Uh there there of course is this is a huge conversation all in itself, but I think there are a few things that we can look to uh accomplish in the near term which could have, I think, far reaching effects. One has it one has to do with providing uh in in incentives in this community uh by government with business or for business. Another having to do with streamlining processes, um which in certain parts of government is beginning to happen, I think they're recognizing that possibility. And another important thing I think can be done is promoting growth, and that is jointly between the private sector and uh government.
[00:16:56] Randall Roth: Now Bob, I think there probably a number of listeners out there that are very concerned about Hawaii's political culture, um, but equally concerned about what Jack just suggested. Uh, I think we have a lot of listeners who uh, I don't know if anti-growth is the right description, but they're very skeptical of um of developers and and the the potential for paving over Hawaii, which is the uh the expression sometimes used. Um, any thoughts about where those two uh concerns intersect?
[00:17:28] Bob Dye: Well, I think that the the fear is, is real. I and I think the fear is partially derived from the fact that developers, bankers uh have uh economic power. And they can make large donations to uh to candidates, by candidates. And so I think that one of the things you have to do is consider seriously limiting campaign contributions. I personally believe that campaign contributions should only be made by people who are registered to vote and that they can make, they should only be able to make donations to those people for whom they can vote. Older Dodds or another president of a large corporation shouldn't have more say in an election than the ordinary guy.
[00:18:12] Randall Roth: You know Jack, uh when I had the meeting with the business executives, a feeling that I had was that they see themselves kind of as as victims of of Hawaii's political culture. Um, that somehow or another, they are powerless in this process and they're pretty much pushed along by the currents. Um, I think there probably a lot of listeners out there that that think of this political culture as being something that's a little bit more like a conspiracy between business leaders and and government officials, that somehow or another, business leaders have it in their best interest to to preserve the status quo by re-electing the people who are in there now. What's your reaction to that?
[00:18:51] Jack Myers: Well, I think there's there's an element of uh certainly the perception um is there. I mean, I I think the part of the problem frankly, is that the community by and large, uh, has a gross misunderstanding of what really goes on, whether it's having to do with that particular perception of the alliance between, you know, the top of business and the top of government or it's some other perception that somehow development is bad, for example. Uh, development, in my mind, the, uh, isn't necessarily bad and, in fact, is vital to a healthy, uh, and enriched community.
[00:19:29] Randall Roth: When you say it isn't necessarily bad, how do you distinguish good development from bad development?
[00:19:35] Jack Myers: Well, I think Hawaii is a good example, um, uh, of of uh, having a discussion on that particular subject. I mean, we have a very sensitive and important uh, environmental, uh, condition here. I mean, we have islands that we want to preserve and cultures that we want to promote and enhance and we have all sorts of special considerations. And yet the um, uh, the key to an island environment, uh, is a, uh, I think, anyhow, a healthy, vital, robust economy, so that the very talented people in this community who were born and raised here, um, uh, can be educated here and remain here instead of this huge drain. I don't know. Uh, you don't have to go very far to ask your friends, um, you know, where their children are to find that most of them are gone.
[00:20:25] Jack Myers: And, uh, uh, only in a few instances do you have, uh, family members staying close together, and I think that's, I think that's just part of, um, part of the situation that we're having to deal with here.
[00:20:37] Randall Roth: Okay. You know, part of this topic is the suggestion that maybe people are afraid to speak up about this topic, and I don't know if that's the explanation, but this is the first time we've had a show in a long time where we haven't had a flood of calls, the first time I invited them. So, uh, folks out there, we've got some lines open. Usually uh, we don't this time of the show. Call us at 955-8821 if you've got a question or a comment you'd like to make about Hawaii's political culture. I've got somebody on on the line right now. Bob Watada, who's the head of the, uh, uh, campaign spending commission here in Hawaii. Bob, are you there?
[00:21:16] Caller: I'm here, Randy.
[00:21:17] Randall Roth: Uh, I happened to bump into you the other day. I mentioned to you that we were going to be talking about the political culture in Hawaii on our show this morning, and uh, you had some real interesting things to say at that time, and, um, just curious uh, what your thoughts are this morning.
[00:21:34] Caller: Thank you very much, Randy. Uh, I think the the question here in terms of my observations in terms of the political culture in Hawaii is that as I was saying to you, that there isn't a strong uh, character in terms of what is right in trying to do what is right. Uh, there's there's more one of um, sort of following along and and in trying to get along with with different people, um, one in which, for example, political contributions are made routinely by certain groups of people or certain businesses, and it's it's clearly done to make certain that, you know, they get the business uh, that they need. It's not one of trying to make sure that certain people get elected and so forth.
[00:22:18] Caller: It's one really of trying to maintain, uh, you know, contact with that group that they want to be in contact with to get the business that they need in town.
[00:22:27] Randall Roth: Well now what would you say to people who would would um, respond that there's nothing wrong with uh, making contributions with a goal of of having access to elected officials, which which I think is what you were suggesting?
[00:23:01] Caller: Well, that's that's what's happening and I'm not saying it's wrong. Uh, what I'm saying is that culture does exist. Uh, it's it's not one of trying to make certain that uh, contributions, as Bob said, is is from the people who are electing you. It gets away from the whole notion of representative government.
[00:23:05] Randall Roth: I see. And when we were talking the other night, I I got the impression that you felt that some people were were knowingly uh, skirting the rules, and uh, you said something to the effect that it's been going on so long that people have just kind of gotten into the habit and it's going to be hard to break them?
[00:23:18] Caller: that that's true. I think that uh uh, if you look at the if you look at the reports, as as I've had an opportunity to do, and of course Bob Dye has had that opportunity to do, that is, is that people routinely spend the money as if it were their own money. Um, it's it's it's not money which is been given to you by the contributors to run your election. It's uh, it's used for uh, everything, graduation parties, to retirement parties, to everything else. Let's uh, not to run an election.
[00:23:53] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Bob, I really appreciate you being available to us this morning.
[00:23:57] Caller: Okay, Randy. Thank you for calling.
[00:23:58] Randall Roth: From just reading the newspapers, I know you folks at the uh, campaign spending commission have been very, very busy. And uh, as a citizen, I'm under the impression that you're doing good work over there.
[00:24:07] Caller: Thank you very much, Randy. Thank you.
[00:24:09] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got some callers on the line and we're going to see if we can move through them uh, real quickly. Let's go to Bill in Waikiki. Good morning, Bill.
[00:24:16] Caller: Yes, thank you for the show, Randy. You always do a good job putting these uh, programs out. Uh, the question regarding development, uh, being a resident of Waikiki, we are now faced with a situation where the state spending $300, $400 million to build a convention center in order to fill up hotel rooms. And now every hotel uh, owner and developer, uh by the way the hotel owners that send their reservation system to the mainland and and uh, don't have employees here to boot. However, we have uh, now developers like Jack Meyer, they want to build thousands and thousands of more hotel rooms. Doesn't anyone ever look at the uh, uh the the realization that it's just payoff after payoff with these city council people Waikiki Special District is being changed, who donates to those people?
[00:24:59] Caller: It's just a bunch of garbage. I'll just listen if you keep me on the line because I'd be happy to answer any questions that maybe offered.
[00:25:05] Randall Roth: Let's let's get a reaction first from Jack Myers and then from Bob Dye. Jack?
[00:25:09] Jack Myers: Well, uh, I think Bill uh, uh, uh clearly has some strong feelings about what's going on down there in Waikiki, but I will tell you that from my perspective, Waikiki is the uh the engine that runs the Hawaiian economy. And uh, it has been so poorly uh, managed over the years, uh, mostly as a political football. Uh, because politicians recognize that anything that goes on or around the uh, the engine of our economy is something that makes for great political uh, fodder. And I would just uh, I would just say that um, there's no way that we can uh, allow Waikiki to, uh, just maintain a status quo. It needs to be constantly revitalized uh, to meet the demands of a world travel market.
[00:26:10] Jack Myers: And I I think rather than taking up a lot of time here that's a critical point.
[00:26:13] Randall Roth: Probably safe to say you and Bill simply disagree on on this one. Bob Dye?
[00:26:18] Bob Dye: Well, I think Waikiki is obviously it generates uh, or charges the economy, and uh, it is important, I I think, people disagree on how it should develop be developed, how it should be redeveloped, and I think that the, there's been a real turnaround, and that there is an effort now being made to make it a more Hawaiian place and I'm all for that.
[00:26:40] Randall Roth: Um, Bill, I I really appreciate your call. I'm going to move on just because I'm afraid we'd get off into a separate topic, that of development in Waikiki, which is an important topic unto itself. I want to get to that sometime soon. But so we can stay real focused on the political culture, uh, let's move on to Desmond. I assume that's Desmond Burn?
[00:26:59] Caller: Correct, Randy.
[00:27:00] Randall Roth: Desmond, for those of you who don't know, is the uh, the head of common cause here in Hawaii. What do you think, Desmond?
[00:27:06] Caller: Well, I wear two hats. I'm a small businessman, and like to see a level playing field and also the common cause hat. We like to see a level playing field amongst all business. First of all, the fear, I think is overblown, but part I prin- we principally blame the politicians for the situation, that they like it as it is. It has a lot of discretion, and whenever there's discretion, then they can put the uh, the arm on business. And, but we notice that when we go down to the legislature for campaign reform, we don't see the chamber of commerce there. We don't see the professional associations of architects or engineers or all these people. These people are spineless. They don't come down and protest.
[00:28:05] Randall Roth: You know, Desmond, you might find it interesting, it probably won't surprise you, but when I had the meeting with the political insiders, they commented that they thought the the leadership that was coming from the private sector was primarily from small business in Hawaii as opposed to the big businesses in Hawaii. When I talked to the group of business executives, they just kind of smiled like well you dummy, don't you get it? If you've got a big business, you've got too much to lose to stand up and speak up. Uh, so again, I I think what you're saying fits in with what both of those groups were uh, were thinking as well.
[00:28:20] Caller: Yeah. We support uh, Bob what Bob Dye was mentioning of severely constraining campaign contributions, knocking it out for business and cutting it down so that everybody is equal to $100 or something, and even public financing of um, of elections, which uh, although some people protest, it would be cheaper than what we're paying for now, which is uh, pressure and influence and access and undue access and all that type of thing.
[00:28:49] Randall Roth: So rather than as a victim, you see business executives, especially with the the big companies in Hawaii as being part of uh, I- conspiracy is a harsh word, but part of a process that works to the disadvantage of the public.
[00:29:01] Caller: Oh, yes. It works to the disadvantage of small business and it works to the disadvantage of public, in that there is not a level playing field with things out in the open.
[00:29:10] Randall Roth: Okay. Desmond, I really appreciate your call this morning. Uh, let me get a quick reaction from Bob Dye from what you were just listening to and then we'll move on to some more callers.
[00:29:18] Bob Dye: Well, a level playing field is absolutely essential in any kind of a healthy economy, and that doesn't exist here.
[00:29:24] Randall Roth: Doesn't exist. Okay. Jack, quick comment?
[00:29:27] Jack Myers: Uh, well, a quick comment is is, I would say we are a community of small business and medium business, and we hardly have any big businesses left in this community relative to the environments of the rest of the country. Uh well quick comment is uh I would say we're a community of small business and medium business and we hardly have any big businesses left in this community relative to the environments of the rest of the country. Yeah, I think the word conspiracy is kind of a strong word. It just ends up being that way, you know, conspiracy ends up turning people off when you say that word. But anyway, um, you know, let me the main paradox is that uh business uh especially tourism needs growth and it needs never ending growth.
[00:34:41] Jack Myers: And if you talk stability, then business ends in stagnation. And that's the main paradox. Now, what what is our vision? Cuz when you when you compare ourselves to LA, Chicago, New York, do we really want to be like them? No, we don't. LA, New York, it's crazy. That's a crazy life. Huge cities. Do we want to be like that? So what is your vision? Do we want to just grow forever? What is our carrying capacity?
[00:35:09] Bob Dye: Arthur, among other things are you suggesting that that there isn't a vision coming out of of either government or the private sector, maybe you don't like the vision of the private sector, but there isn't a vision coming out of government?
[00:35:21] Jack Myers: Well, I'd say coming out of most people, I think government and business, um, what is our carrying capacity and what is our vision? You know, like, no, you look at, now, is a crowded place and most everybody will agree with that. It's a crowded place.
[00:35:37] Bob Dye: Arthur, let me let me get a reaction of what you're saying because I think you've you've clearly identified a concern that's directly related to Hawaii's political culture and that is its impact on on development in general, Jack Myers.
[00:35:50] Jack Myers: Well, I think uh I think Arthur's got a uh uh and excellent focus on a a main issue and that is the vision. How many of us really would want to see Honolulu the island environment we have look like LA or Chicago or New York? I I certainly wouldn't and I think that would be missing the boat altogether. What we want to do is capitalize on what we have as a unique and most beautiful island environment in the world. Uh, how we how we distill or define or manifest a vision is something I think has escaped us. I mean politicians get up and talk about one thing or another. Even business leaders talk about, you know, what we want or what we need or what we should have is this or that, but there clearly hasn't been a a focus for the community that is absolutely clear on the issue.
[00:36:42] Jack Myers: This is what our community should be. This is a consensus of of support and attitude and opinion about that subject, and here's our program for getting there.
[00:36:53] Bob Dye: Bob, I assume that that that's something that has to come out of the public sector as opposed to the private sector. No, I don't think so, but I think that vision derives from values, and if you have subscribed values in a community, vision will follow that because that's the way to to implement those values, day by day.
[00:37:14] Jack Myers: Um, tourism is an in inherently an unstable industry because it's based on never-ending growth. You know, they are always talking about more tourists. This year, we had more tourists than last year. Where is the end point? We're going to have 100 million coming every year?
[00:37:29] Bob Dye: Arthur, I think you made your point very, very well and I've got five people on the line and I appreciate the call. Thank you. Uh, next in line is Max. Is this Max Botticelli?
[00:37:41] Caller: Yes, I am.
[00:37:42] Bob Dye: Max Botticelli, calling from downtown Honolulu. Max was a guest on our show just a month or so ago. What do you have for us this morning, Max?
[00:37:49] Caller: Well, I I I wonder if, um, if campaign spending, uh, and this is sort of directed at my friend Bob Dai, uh, but if campaign spending isn't really just
[00:38:00] Bob Dye: symptom of a more serious problem and that serious problem is that we've really invested a lot of power in the state partially, I think, to control some of the evils of of the business community and that that power hasn't been really mismanaged by by the state government and the bureaucracy that was build up to to sort of implement that power.
[00:38:31] Randall Roth: Bob Dye.
[00:38:32] Bob Dye: Well, I agree that the bureaucracy is is too big. Uh, we don't need that many people in government. I agree that we have too many politicians. We don't need that much representation. I am represented by so many people. I'm just overwhelmed by the the literature that I get in my mailbox each day, and all these people telling me that they're representing me.
[00:38:53] Randall Roth: Let me read a quote from our meeting with the political insiders, and Bob, get your reaction, and then we'll go back to Max. The quote is that government in Hawaii is so centralized and so powerful obviously is a problem. It makes it too easy to intimidate and stifle. But people in power, power, don't want to give up that power, so what are you going to do, Bob Dye?
[00:39:14] Bob Dye: Well, I think you've got two groups, first off. I think you have the politicians, and then you have what I call the polycasters. These are the your political insiders you were talking about and the power brokers. And uh the one group you can vote out and get rid of, and the other guys stay on forever. I don't know how you get at them.
[00:39:32] Randall Roth: Max, uh quick reaction to that then we have to move on.
[00:39:35] Caller: Well, uh I I would agree with that. It it's very difficult, but it seems to me that we're not very successful at getting rid of of the politicians either. The incumbents seem to stick around for a long time.
[00:39:47] Randall Roth: The incumbents stick around, and we've got the the polycasters as as Bob uh labels them as well.
[00:39:53] Caller: Yes.
[00:39:54] Randall Roth: Okay, Max. Thanks for the call. We go to Juliana from Hawaii Kai. Good morning, Juliana.
[00:39:59] Caller: Good morning. Juliana. Yes, good morning.
[00:40:01] Randall Roth: Good morning.
[00:40:02] Caller: I'd like to say that um, I am so, so delighted that we, the state of Hawaii is fortunate enough enough to have developers like Jack Myers, um, because of Jack, uh, there are beautiful things happening in this state. I wish it were easier for them to be able to to develop, if there were there weren't so many roadblocks, we might have nicer, more beautiful things, more quick, more quickly, more logically.
[00:40:31] Randall Roth: Juliana, let me get a reaction this, and, and Jack, I'm sure you appreciate Juliana's comments, but what's your reaction to the suggestion that that good developers, and Juliana has definitely put you in that category, aren't getting the kind of encouragement or support or whatever that um that perhaps is needed?
[00:40:51] Jack Myers: Well, I think uh we we were talking about that earlier, the the processes that we have to go through are are chronic. Um typically, the life cycle of a project that's sponsored by our office, uh is about six to seven years. Uh if you were to take a comparable project uh in any other market in America, uh with a few, just a few exceptions, uh it would be one and a half to three years for those same kinds of projects. So, you have something structurally deficient about the way we process business here that is by and large unnecessary. Uh but the system is set up, it's habitually practiced this way, and so those roadblocks and and the difficulties are thrown up in front of us without really any particular benefit that couldn't be accomplished through some more streamlined process.
[00:41:46] Caller: That's right, and the scary part is that I worry that um, because of these roadblocks, people like Jack are going to end up leaving Hawaii, which would be a shame. My father left Hawaii, he couldn't accomplish the things that he wanted to, um, Chris Hemmeter left Hawaii. It's a shame. If Jack Myers leaves Hawaii, it's the greatest loss we've ever had.
[00:42:06] Randall Roth: Let me, let me ask Bob Dye a related question. Bob, the the the feeling that I have, and I'm, I'm perhaps wrong in this, but we used to have more developers just as we used to have more in a number of other categories, and as we get a smaller and smaller number, my impression is that by and large, those are people who have an ability to deal with government or are willing to put up with the sort of hurdles that that Jack has described, at least willing in the short run. Um, what's your reaction to what you're hearing from Juliana and from from Jack because you're not, I don't think of you as a pro development pro growth uh person, you're not. Uh what's your reaction to what you're hearing?
[00:42:47] Bob Dye: Well, I don't think that the government or a society has any uh any need to promise continued work for any class of people. I think well, you know, there is a carrying capacity as Arthur was talking about, and you can only have so many developers and that number will fluctuate and I think that's that's fine. Just as we are saturated with lawyers or artists or whatever. Uh so, I'm not worried about uh a Chris Hemmeter leaving Hawaii.
[00:43:19] Randall Roth: Nor am I. Jack, Jack Myers.
[00:43:21] Jack Myers: Well, I I I I think the I I I am I I was I was crestfallen when Chris Hemmeter left Hawaii, and not not because I supported everything that Chris Hemmeter did, but because I I saw it as you know, kind of the final exit of some of the most creative uh talent that was uh that was around these parts. I agree. And that uh for for the most part our development industry over the last 20 years has been completely decimated and when you have that happen, um then you you basically have a fundamental flaw in uh your community system, your community infrastructure in terms of an important part of the business sector.
[00:44:05] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Juliana, thank you for your call. We we need to keep moving. This is the Price of Paradise radio show, Mike. Goodbye. My name is Randy Roth. I'm here in the studio with Jack Myers, the chairman CEO of the Myers Corporation, and Bob Dye, a one-time high-level member of the Fossi administration, currently a political commentator. We're talking about Hawaii's political culture. We have a couple people on the line, but we have several lines open, so we would invite you to call us at 955-8821 or on a neighbor island 1-800-955-8821. If you tuned in late and would like to catch the show in its entirety, tonight at 8 o'clock on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, you'll have an opportunity to do just that. Again, our topic is Hawaii's political culture. Let's go to John in Waikiki. Good morning, John.
[00:44:54] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Uh I must say that uh when one looks at the whole situation from a distance, it seems like uh the government and businesses, the big ones, are all in the game called farce. Because we have Waikiki streetlights rotting away, that cost a fortune. We get the stadium rotting away. It cost a fortune. What's going on? And secondly, why is it that the government having such high requirements such as college diplomas, they all lack innovation and common sense.
[00:45:33] Randall Roth: John, let's get a reaction to your two comments. Uh Bob Dye.
[00:45:38] Bob Dye: Well, I obviously I'm against waste and putting up inferior quality buildings. I don't know.
[00:45:43] Randall Roth: Well, I think John suggesting that that's somehow related to what we're calling Hawaii's political culture.
[00:45:49] Bob Dye: Yes, sir. Uh I think that there is oftentimes been a an appetite for development that we don't need or accoutrements that we don't need, and I I'm willing to uh say that maybe that's been uh determined by the uh contributions the person is is making, but I don't know that to be true.
[00:46:09] Randall Roth: Okay. John, I appreciate your call. I'm going to have to move on. Thank you very much. Uh let's go to Arthur from his car. Good morning, Arthur.
[00:46:18] Jack Myers: Hi, good morning. I I just want to make a comment. I'm involved in a land management company, and uh we just hired a a fellow um uh Hawaiian chap who worked at city of Provo for seven years as a planning director and uh he came back home and said it was such a shock because uh oddly enough in the state where he's working, Utah, uh they have sort of a template that uh whatever law is considered to be passed, uh is based upon is it good for the economy, is it good for business, and as a result, they have very low unemployment, uh large growth of job opportunities, um educational opportunities and uh a very very low welfare state, so I I don't know how we could ever get that template built into our system, but it seems to me it's it's worth looking at.
[00:47:12] Randall Roth: Well, I think you and and Jack are in somewhat agreement on this one. Let me get a quick reaction from him.
[00:47:17] Jack Myers: Yeah, Arthur, I could I couldn't agree with you more on that. In fact, um we're and we have been for the last couple of years, uh working almost all of our business through the um uh the model, you know, computer models and and uh that that sort of thing. And now we're in a position where we can sit down with politicians and and turn the laptop computer around on their desk, and and so when they're talking about, you know, suggesting that we have to build this or we should build this or we should do this sort of uh uh exaction or or what have you, uh we're able to uh incorporate uh that notion into the computer model and show them the the real time impact of what they're talking about, which typically, when you're talking about public fill uh facilities or affordable housing or other kinds of burdens uh on the backs of development, it it it points out very quickly how those notions invalidate the feasibility of a of a particular project. So, I think I think that is something that could and should happen here in Hawaii.
[00:48:28] Randall Roth: Okay. Let's go to our next caller, Mary George in Kailua. Good morning, Mary.
[00:48:32] Caller: Good morning, Randy. How are we doing?
[00:48:34] Randall Roth: Just fine. Mary's a a former uh city council person and former state legislator. What do you have for us this morning, Mary?
[00:48:40] Caller: What I have for you is I wish somebody would say what they mean by no leadership. Um, I have a feeling that we have leadership, but a lot of us uh, or a lot of people don't like the uh the direction they're leading us in. Uh, this is not a a formless kind of structure. This is a structure that has some people who who are calling the shot, and I know that a small time politician like me can whittle away around the edges so to speak, but uh not make uh any vast difference in direction. I I think both Bob and and uh and Jack can and um I'd very much like to know what they think about that.
[00:49:20] Randall Roth: Okay, let's start with Bob Dye.
[00:49:23] Bob Dye: Well, I agree that there's formal leadership. I don't think that uh and that's built into the system, but I'm not sure that that's the kind of leadership I'm talking about. Kind of leadership I'm talking about is a a person who will stand up and say, "These are the values of our community, this is the way we implement those values." In Ireland for example, when they wanted to improve their economy, they invested enormous amounts of money way beyond the capacity almost of that small nation of 3,000, in education. Now they have one of the most educated workforces in the world. Because of that, they are now producing this small nation of 3,000 people one-third of all the computers that are used in Europe, and they did that because they supported the educational system first.
[00:50:12] Randall Roth: Jack Myers, any reaction to to Mary George's comments?
[00:50:15] Jack Myers: Well, I think uh, um Mary George is uh uh humble in her estimation of her political sophistication and whittling around the edges and stuff. I know that she was a very effective uh leader and uh, uh politician. Uh, the uh, my reaction, I guess, is that the obviously we have political leaders, we elect them all the time. I'm talking about the intensity of their leadership, uh, and that that question that one of the callers had that brought our focus on vision, I think is uh uh essentially the main ingredient. How well-defined is the vision for this community? Do we understand where it is that we're going and how we're going to get there? And I I don't think that is a clear picture.
[00:51:00] Randall Roth: Mary, quick reaction from you and then we have to move on.
[00:51:03] Caller: Well, I don't uh I I think lack of vision is um, um if that's what we're talking about, we're not talking about leaders, we're talking about leaders who lack vision, okay?
[00:51:13] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Mary. Appreciate your call. We go to Astrid in Kailua. Good morning, Astrid.
[00:51:19] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Uh, I'm one of these community people who um is accused of not having vision. Uh, 22 years ago, we had a must, a general plan for the island of Oahu in which the community participated, government participated, everybody did. And shortly thereafter, we had eight development plans, which were also partly formed by the community. In Waikiki, we had the Waikiki special design district, which was unanimously backed by the visitor industry, by uh residents, by uh government, and so forth. And in the 20 years since then, we have seen constant attempts to modify, weaken, and even destroy those plans in that vision. Uh, I don't think it's a question of just government and business in their leadership. I think it's a question of community leadership, but somebody has to listen to us. And government doesn't listen, and business doesn't listen, and that's why we have some of the terrible development that we've had. We are not against development, but we're against unplanned, uncontrolled, badly laid out development which harms rather than helps the city.
[00:52:26] Randall Roth: Astrid, let me get a reaction from from Bob and Jack, uh, especially to the suggestion that that government is there, business is there, but somehow the the people don't have um a full role in this process of of leading us into the future, Bob.
[00:52:42] Bob Dye: Well, I think that in a democratic society, which we are, that people do have uh the power to influence, as uh as happened when the development plans were put forth and were voted on. There's been an enormous amount of people participation in the development plans of this uh of this uh community.
[00:53:01] Randall Roth: Um, any reaction, Jack?
[00:53:03] Jack Myers: Well, I think uh, uh you know, obviously the development plan uh that was organized years ago is uh not a static um, uh document, it's a evolutionary document. It's always going to change. Prob probably the biggest problem in my mind, um, and and with specific reference to Astrid's comment on the WSD, uh which covers Waikiki, is that here is a document that gets caught up in political um uh shenanigans uh and and and holding landowners and uh industries and economies hostage over how it's going to get changed and what modifications will be made. So it's a it's it's it's a uh it's a a pretty a poor system of handling it.
[00:53:48] Randall Roth: Uh Astrid, quick reaction from you?
[00:53:51] Caller: Well, I didn't say that the community did not attempt to make plans. I said the community's plans were ignored and destroyed by the developers and even by most people in government. Right. Uh the WSD was itself a reaction to the over development and the overcrowding and the terrible things that were going on in Waikiki. But now these uh political and and development leaders want to destroy it and go back to the practices which it was originally designed to stop.
[00:54:25] Randall Roth: And Astrid, I and I probably, you know, didn't paraphrase it correctly, but I think what you're saying is that the people don't have as much of an effective role in this. They're out there working hard and doing things, but don't have as much of an effective role because of what we're calling the the political culture, that somehow or another, whether it's uh political shenanigans, which is a phrase that Jack used, uh or conspiracy, which was uh criticized earlier as too harsh of a word. Uh I think what I hear you saying is that if the culture were more receptive of input from the community, that things would be working better.
[00:55:00] Caller: Well, I think it's not a question of shenanigans or anything else. It's a question of plain power. And as was said once, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
[00:55:11] Randall Roth: Okie dokie. Thank you, Astrid. We got to move on, but I really appreciate your call this morning. Okay. We've got uh some more people on the line and we're running low on time, so we'll keep moving next to Marla. Uh I guess is that from the Big Island, Marla?
[00:55:24] Caller: Yes, it is.
[00:55:25] Randall Roth: Uh what do you have for us this morning?
[00:55:27] Caller: Um, I just want to say I I I agree uh with the previous uh caller, the the the applicant and the developers are given bias and preferential treatment over the community and you see it does they don't get listen until lawsuits are involved, and you see it over and over again with uh Hyatt and the tide pool issue and Nan saying what's going on there, and you're going to see it again with 1250 Oceanside until the developers and the uh county, the government realize that the community needs to be involved in the planning process from the ground up, not the other way. That you're going to see this over and over again. Um, we need to be involved and we need to be involved in the beginning and our concerns need to be mitigated. Over and over again, things get issued and nothing gets complied with. Conditions don't get mitigated because there's not nobody there out there to to enforce these. Okay, Marlin, let me Okay. Be it over here rapidly in the Big Island.
[00:56:20] Randall Roth: Let me get a reaction from Jack Myers and then we need to move on. Jack?
[00:56:23] Jack Myers: Oh well, really really quickly, I you know, I I tend to disagree a little bit uh about uh community involvement. Only in the sense that I have never witnessed any community, uh I I'm speaking now broadly about Hawaii, where there is more community involvement. Uh we go through hearing after hearing after hearing to discuss the issues, to get community input uh to to almost a fault. I think it's part of the defect in our system. Uh how many hearings does one need to go through to to isolate, identify the
[00:57:00] Speaker 1: fine, and then mitigate the issues. And and it goes on far, far too much here.
[00:57:05] Speaker 2: So, in your opinion, there's there's plenty of opportunity for the public to get involved.
[00:57:10] Speaker 1: It's probably more so than any other community in America.
[00:57:13] Speaker 2: And Marla, I assume you're assuming you're saying that even if there are opportunities to speak your piece that it doesn't necessarily have an impact.
[00:57:20] Caller: It doesn't matter. I've lived here 30 years. Those meetings are predetermined and all set up before they're before anybody even walks in there.
[00:57:27] Speaker 2: Okay, that Marla, I've heard that from our political uh leaders here.
[00:57:31] Speaker 1: Marla, I would I would just tell you, uh uh, as my experiences go in 22 years of being in business, I have never walked into a single hearing or a meeting with anybody where there's been a predetermination.
[00:57:42] Caller: Well, of course you're going to say that.
[00:57:44] Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's agree to disagree. Thank you, Marla. And let's move on to Pat from Aloha. Let's move on to Pat in Kahala. Good morning, Pat.
[00:57:51] Caller: Good morning. I just wanted to say we were talking about the political influence issue and suddenly my memory goes back to a time when I attended a meeting where Frank Fasi avowed that he would bring the visitor industry to its knees, and I'm sure Mr. Dai remembers that because they would not agree to at that time a hotel tax that he wanted to implement. Um, primarily, as I remember, it was due to the fact that the industry didn't support other than uh in a passive way uh his political campaigns and Mr. Fasi's bent for retribution was manifest, of course, when he effectively put Queen Surf leveled it down to the ground. Um, we have power in politics and we have retribution there, and if you go to a meeting such as Marla just mentioned and you don't have some kind of clout other than a sincere wish for saving something, um you can be beaten down. It's just discouraging is all I wanted to say.
[00:59:08] Speaker 2: Pat, uh, thank you for your comment. I'm going to get a reaction from Bob Dai and then I apologize, but we do have to move on so we can get this wrapped up. Thank you, Pat.
[00:59:16] Caller: Thank you.
[00:59:17] Speaker 1: No, I think Pat's uh uh the statement she made, uh demonstrate that the government and the uh the citizens and the uh developers or the the business people were on opposite sides, and so it was an antagonistic situation. And at that time, uh Tom Dinell, who was up at the University of Hawaii, tried valiantly to bring about a cooperative situation, which is I think we've moved more towards now, and that's good and I think we've got a long way to go.
[00:59:49] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, we've got time for one more call, and then I want to give my guest in studio an opportunity to uh to sum things up. We'll go to Dave in Moiliili. Good morning, Dave.
[00:59:58] Caller: Hi, good morning, gentlemen.
[01:00:00] Speaker 2: Good morning.
[01:00:01] Caller: Oh, thank you for having this kind of program, and my question I'll try to make as brief as possible. This program to me is a breath of fresh air, but precisely because it's only one program surrounded by maybe 32 other radio stations and all these cable channels and all the media and such. I have to ask a question. I've been living in Hawaii for 24 years and although things have changed in a small way, there's always been that overarching problem that you're discussing today. My question is, do you feel that the local media and I'm talking print and electronic journalism by and large is in bed with the status quo?
[01:00:39] Speaker 2: Hmm, now there's a provocative question, Bob Dai. What do you think?
[01:00:43] Speaker 1: Gee, I don't I don't think they're in bed with the status quo necessarily, but I do think that their power has been diminished enormously in recent years. I I think that the each of the news the news holes in both of the newspapers are now smaller than they used to be. I don't notice the aggressiveness in the uh the reportorial staffs uh that we used to have. Uh so if they are in bed, I don't think they're a very good bed partner.
[01:01:10] Speaker 2: Uh, Jack Myers, what do you think about Dave's comment?
[01:01:14] Jack Myers: Uh, I I would uh just I would say that there is no status quo in the media. Uh that the um there's no uh doubt in my mind that uh media still plays an important role in shaping uh attitudes and perceptions in this town, and that will continue to do so.
[01:01:32] Speaker 2: And you don't feel that they're uh leaning over trying to uh be liked by political leaders or liked by the the business community?
[01:01:42] Jack Myers: I I I haven't seen that. Uh I I think media is probably spending more time competing with one one another and and creating more personalities for themselves than anything these days. And and uh that's that's my take on it.
[01:01:55] Speaker 2: Dave, thanks for your call. Really appreciate it. We're down to just the last couple of minutes. Um, Bob, let me start with you. Is there anything that we've left out? Any observation you'd like to make or just something you'd like to emphasize that we've gone over once already?
[01:02:10] Speaker 1: Well, I just think that the the level playing field, especially when it comes down to the vote, has to be achieved. And if that basic thing could happen in this community so that the heavy hitter contributors didn't have more power than the guy on the street, I think that would be a wonderful thing.
[01:02:27] Speaker 2: So it all kind of uh boils down in terms of specific actions that could be taken, you would suggest something in the campaign financing area.
[01:02:35] Speaker 1: I think that could be handled in the next session of the legislature quite easily.
[01:02:39] Speaker 2: Uh, is the political will there in your opinion?
[01:02:41] Speaker 1: No.
[01:02:42] Speaker 2: How how would the public uh encourage them to do something along those lines if the public was so inclined?
[01:02:50] Speaker 1: Telling the people who are asking them to vote for them what they want and insisting upon it.
[01:02:55] Speaker 2: Okay. Jack, uh 30 seconds or so, any additional thoughts you'd like to share?
[01:03:00] Jack Myers: Well, I think the challenge for business and government is to come together, you know, jointly to uh work on real dynamic programs uh focusing on the fundamentals. Uh we have to have a healthy economy. We have to have a good educational system. All of those things uh relate to one another when it comes to business. Um, I think there's an important uh uh need to continue to streamline processes to provide incentives for business, to recognize the value of a healthy development industry as being an important part of our community. Um, I think that the uh we have a tremendous uh uh um I think the opportunities for Hawaii are are tremendous, and I think we need to work hard to realize them.
[01:03:51] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, that music means it's time for us to to sign off. Our topic this morning has been Hawaii's as brief was possible.