Hawaiian Sovereignty
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-02-12
Guests: William Meheula (lawyer); Paul Carrington (Professor of Law, Duke University); Bob Midkiff (retired businessman)
Duration: 1:09:22

[00:00:04] Randall Roth: Good morning. I'm Randy Roth, and this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Our topic today is Hawaiian sovereignty and its probable impact on the people of Hawaii. It's a controversial subject about which people tend to feel very strongly. In a few moments, my guests in the studio will share their different points of view and then listeners will be invited to call in and ask questions or make comments. My guest today are an impressive lot to say the least. I could easily spend half our time simply reciting their accolades and accomplishments, but so we can get to the topic quickly, I'm going to provide only brief introductions. Bob Midkiff is a retired businessman who is directly and passionately involved in numerous charitable organizations and causes. He also is a fifth generation descendant of American missionaries.
[00:00:57] Randall Roth: Bill Meheula is a practicing attorney and native Hawaiian activist who recently received the Hawaii Bar Association's Justice Award for his pro bono service to the Hawaiian community. Paul Carrington currently is the Wallace S. Fujiyama distinguished visiting professor at the University of Hawaii School of Law and for many years served as Dean of the Duke University School of Law. Gentlemen, welcome to the Price of Paradise radio show.
[00:01:25] William Meheula: Aloha.
[00:01:26] Paul Carrington: Aloha, Randy.
[00:01:27] Randall Roth: Paul, I think you had been here in Hawaii for all of a week or two when you wrote an article for the Honolulu Advertiser that generated strong reactions. Some people liked it a lot and others didn't. Could you briefly tell us what the main theme of that piece was and why you expressed it?
[00:01:45] Paul Carrington: Well, it was just a reaction, Randy, and I'm not sure it was appropriate for me to have recorded such a reaction at the time, but there were a couple of items in the advertiser that I was reacting to. Uh one was an op-ed piece that contained a little history that seemed to me to overstate the point that they wished to make. And uh and the second was a report on the Civil Rights Commission's staff recommendation with respect to a comment that somebody had made that probably they shouldn't have made, but it seemed to me uh both of them involved a kind of overreaction to uh uh racial tensions of one kind or another.
[00:02:44] Randall Roth: Well, simply because my office is next to yours, I I know that there were a number of people who felt very strongly about that piece. Some that were telling you they liked it and some that said that you should not have written it. Period.
[00:02:57] Paul Carrington: Yeah.
[00:02:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Bob Midkiff, do you have any thoughts about anything that Paul expressed in that piece or anything related to that?
[00:03:03] Bob Midkiff: I thought that the Paul's comments were very good. This is the Aloha State, and we have known for our multi-ethnic state our ability to get along with each other, and all of us get a little worried when people start pushing one cause stronger than the total racial harmony, which from which we all desire. We are a My grandfather Theodore Richards purchased a piece of property on Windward Oahu, Koku Kahi, which means of one blood, meaning that we're all of one blood brothers and sisters under God. And this feeling that we have must worry about each other's share is important. That's really comes from my missionary side. And the idea that we should separate and go into separate states is I think it's a very serious problem for the future.
[00:04:01] Randall Roth: Well, in fact, you wrote something that I saw some time ago where a quote drew my attention. It says, 'Nobody wants Hawaii to become another Northern Ireland or Bosnia.' Is it conceivable that things could degenerate here along those lines?
[00:04:18] Bob Midkiff: It's very easy. The uh I know that the people who are leading the movement for Hawaiian sovereignty have no concern that way, but some of their followers could get hopped up someday and take a gun in their hands and shoot somebody thinking that that was what was the right thing to do. That would be very serious for Hawaii.
[00:04:39] Randall Roth: Bill, how do you feel about all of this? Uh you're native Hawaiian and normally here in Hawaii, only the native Hawaiians talk publicly about sovereignty and implications. Uh and here you've got a couple of howlies, one of them fresh off the boat. What are your reactions to what you're hearing?
[00:04:59] William Meheula: I think first of all, I think Paul should you know, relax about his comments because you know, the Hawaiian culture is such that we want people to tell it like it is and we'd rather have that than someone think something and then not tell us. So, you know, that you voice an opinion that I think some part of the uh the community in the state of Hawaii adheres to, and and I think it has to be said and addressed. Uh as far as opening up old wounds and that's something that's not beneficial to the society in Hawaii. I think that's wrong though. I think the point is that the Hawaiians have been wrong. The uh Congress in 1993 apologized for the overthrow. They said it was quote unquote illegal. And I think what we're moving on to now is just reparations for that illegal overthrow, and uh and that's it.
[00:05:50] William Meheula: As far as you know, this place becoming a Bosnia, I think you have to go back to the nature of Hawaiians. I mean Hawaiians believe in O and that is making things right. There's also a concept called Kala, which is to forgive. I mean to Hawaiians, they do not believe in the concept of um revenge is a dish best served cold, which is something that a very good Caucasian lawyer in town once told me, a very aggressive and successful lawyer. And I said to myself, when he told me that, I said, ah that's that's not Hawaiian and Hawaiians don't think like that. And I and because of that, I don't think it'll ever get to that.
[00:06:27] Randall Roth: So you think that Hawaiians listening in this morning uh aren't put off by the notion of non-Hawaiians talking about this subject?
[00:06:36] William Meheula: Well, I think some of them might be. But on the other hand, I think most of them appreciate the fact that people are now coming out uh non-Hawaiians are coming out and actually expressing their view, because until we get to that point, we're not going to move on to the next step.
[00:06:51] Randall Roth: I think that's a good point. Paul, do you have any reaction to that?
[00:06:54] Paul Carrington: Well, uh not directly. I do think it's important that these matters be discussed, and I think uh it's a mistake uh for the conversation to be all uh among uh one one group. Uh this does have uh effects on other people, and I guess one reason I spoke up as I did was it it even has implications for the mainland. Hawaii is an island, but it's uh it's also uh part of America and part of the world, and uh one of the things is a little worrisome about it is that that there are a lot of uh of separatist sentiments around the world right now. We live in a time when this is almost contagious, and that I think is probably what evokes uh uh Bob's anxieties is uh Bosnia is not an unusual place right now. In fact, that seems to be the common uh condition of mankind these days is people be at one another's throats uh and and that's why the the timing of it magnifies, I suppose, a little bit the concern, but it there's a lot of this kind of talk that uh occurs in the mainland. Uh uh Hawaiians aren't totally unique in their feelings about past events and uh um that seems to be problem also in Canada and Mexico and lots of other countries as well.
[00:08:14] Randall Roth: Okay. Bob Midkiff?
[00:08:17] Bob Midkiff: Um it's very interesting. I just thinking as I drove down this morning, today is February the 12th. That's the birthday of Abraham Lincoln. He fought a terrible war to keep people from pulling apart to maintain the Union of the States. And I think it's very important that we look for what is good in America and what is a good in Hawaii and work for the best instead of worrying about pulling apart.
[00:08:43] Randall Roth: Bill?
[00:08:44] William Meheula: You know, I think that's absolutely right, um Bob, because I think that for the majority of Hawaiians, this sovereignty movement means that we believe in America and we believe that America will do the right thing with respect to reparations. I think that if I I just stated a possible goal for Hawaiian sovereignty, that might put it into perspective and kind of relax people out there as to what, you know, the majority of Hawaiians are after. The in in 1893, the government and the crown lands making up of about 2 million acres was illegally obtained by the um provisional government. That's what we seek um or a substantial portion of it. Now, we do not, the majority of us at least, do not seek the private lands because that was uh disposed of or at least divided at 1848 at the time of the Mahele. And so we're not trying to take back people's private lands, but what we're saying is we have a strong claim to the government lands that were taken at the time of the overthrow. And in fact, that's exactly what the apology bill states.
[00:09:48] Randall Roth: Okay. I want to come back to that in just a moment, but for listeners who joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's topic is sovereignty and its potential impact on the people of Hawaii. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are Bob Midkiff, a retired businessman and fifth generation descendant of American missionaries, Bill Meheula, who is an attorney and recent winner of the Bar Association's Justice Award for his pro bono activities on behalf of the Hawaiian community, and Paul Carrington, a UH visiting law professor and former Dean of the Duke University Law School. Well Paul, as a legal expert, what's your reaction to Bill's comments about um the overthrow stolen land, legal rights to get it back, that sort of thing?
[00:10:34] Paul Carrington: Well, uh I I'm it makes me a little uneasy to to try to deal with this in terms of 19th century events for which uh a lot of different people had different kinds of responsibilities and trying to unravel and unpack an event that's 100 years old uh seems to me be problematic. On the other hand, with respect to the public lands, uh it seems to me there are some analogies to that that uh make it appropriate at least to have an opportunity to discuss it. I I'm I'm a native of Texas. Well, Texas retained its public lands when it uh became a state. Uh that was part of the deal for the annexation of Texas, and maybe something like that, uh some accommodation of that sort ought to have been made uh at the time of Hawaiian statehood. And I I don't I'm not offended by the idea that we might talk about uh how those public lands uh ought to have been organized or or utilized. Uh it seems to me to be perfectly uh legitimate kind of question to raise.
[00:11:33] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Bob Midkiff?
[00:11:35] Bob Midkiff: Well, I think the the situation of the sea did lands and the crown lands is something that we all should pay attention to. This was set aside by Kamehameha III originally to support the government. The crown lands were to support the King. Later, under King Liliuokalani, the crown lands became also went to support the government. From the point of view of I think strict legality, this has always been government lands and it still is government lands. We did set aside, and this is where I think we should concentrate our efforts in the future, repairing the damage to the Hawaiian Homes Commission lands. This they were set aside originally out of not very attractive lands, not used for sugar or other agricultural purposes. I think if we could arrange a follow-through on the settlement that John worked out, where first of all we should look at the the lands that are seated lands and maybe exchange some of the junk lands that went to the Hawaiian Homes Commission for better lands closer to where people want to be and uh then go right ahead with the settlement and provide the money every year to improve the infrastructure so we can get these 15,000 families living on a home set or where they can live and work, grow flowers, or whatever they'd like to do with their property. That I think would go a long way towards aswaging this feeling of inadequacy.
[00:13:00] Randall Roth: Bill, I'm sure you've got a reaction to one or both of the points that that Bob's just made.
[00:13:05] William Meheula: Well, of course I agree that the um breaches of the Hawaiian Home Lands Trust by the State of Hawaii should be resolved by way of the settlement, this $600 million settlement that Bob was just talking about. But I think if you take a look at the big picture, what happened was in 1893 about 2 million acres of Hawaiian land was stolen. And then after that, they created the Ceded Lands Trust, and then they created the Hawaiian Home Lands Trust. Those trusts were made up of illegally obtained lands. So to say in the apology bill, okay, we agree that 1.8 million acres was illegally obtained without compensation to Hawaiians and without the consent of the Hawaiians. And then to go back and say, okay, so because of that, now we're going to live up to the Hawaiian Home Lands Trust, is like saying, okay, I can steal your car, but I'm but I'm going to promise you that you can use it on weekends and then I don't let you use it on weekends. And then I tell you, oh by the way, I stole your car. And and because of that, I'm now going to allow you to use it on weekends.
[00:14:03] Randall Roth: Isn't Isn't Bob though saying that the government owned the car when it was stolen and the government has the car now, and so the original owner has that car?
[00:14:15] William Meheula: Not the original owner. The original owner was the Kingdom of Hawaii, and that Kingdom was illegally overthrown.
[00:14:22] Randall Roth: But but he's equating the Kingdom of Hawaii with quote the government, and it sounds like you're equating the Kingdom of Hawaii with the Hawaiian community. Is is that the basic difference here?
[00:14:31] William Meheula: Yeah, that is the basic difference. I mean, that was a Kingdom for Hawaiians and for non-Hawaiians at that time. I mean to say for the United States States to say at this time that well you know it was government land and therefore it's now our government land, I mean that's just reversing the admission that the overthrow was illegal.
[00:14:50] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, again, if you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's topic is sovereignty and its potential impact on the people of Hawaii. Listeners are invited to call in and ask questions or make comments. The number is 955-8821. Neighbor islanders are invited to call collect. The number again, 955-8821. Uh one of the words that's been used a number of times is is stolen. Um does anyone in the room take issue with that word or or are we accepting that that it was illegal and that it was stolen, but Paul perhaps you would say, but that was a 100 years ago or whatever, do we agree that it was stolen?
[00:15:36] Paul Carrington: Paul? Well, I don't know. Uh I I'm I don't pass myself off as a historian of these events, and I'm [unintelligible — audio glitch] do uh uh it does that characterization of it makes me just a little bit nervous because it seems to me that uh uh it invites a harder feelings than are useful uh under the circumstances. But I I don't know what I don't know whether that's an accurate uh account. I can't uh
[00:16:02] Randall Roth: Well, let's get let's get Bob's reaction to that word.
[00:16:05] Bob Midkiff: The um the lands were held in trust by the government for the benefit of the the whole Kingdom of Hawaii. The um and when they were returned, they were set aside in a public trust for the support of public schools and other public educational institutions for the betterment of the conditions of native Hawaiians, as defined by the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act as amended for the development of farm and home ownership for the making of public improvements and the provisions of land for public use. That's all what they the government should be doing, and that's what the lands are used for, the income from those lands. So I I think it's just the way it was before.
[00:16:43] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Bill, want you make a comment then we've got a caller.
[00:16:46] William Meheula: Well, I think everyone's ignoring the fact that there's already an admission in the apology bill that says, whereas the Republic of Hawaii also ceded 1.8 million acres of crown, government, and public lands of the Kingdom of Hawaii without the consent of or compensation to the native Hawaiian people of Hawaii or their sovereign government. I mean, I'm a trial lawyer and what I do is I use admissions by my opponent. And there's the admission. We we're moving forward from that now. I mean you you may not like the characterization of stolen, but illegally obtained to me is the same thing.
[00:17:21] Randall Roth: Paul, I'm looking at an awfully good trial lawyer across the table from me. Does it is his point as good as it sounds?
[00:17:28] Paul Carrington: Well, uh I it certainly has some validity. I wouldn't uh wouldn't deny that. I I just I don't think uh illegally obtained is the same as stolen. Stolen is a stronger word than illegally obtained uh by some measure. And uh uh so I I do see a difference there. Okay.
[00:17:44] Randall Roth: Well, we've got some callers. Let's first go to Grace in Ewa Beach. Good morning, Grace.
[00:17:49] Speaker Grace: Oh, good morning. It's a privilege to be on. My daughter just told me, oh call, they're talking about sovereignty, and um I know that sovereignty has always been been on my brain ever since I first heard it. But I'm a student at West Oahu, UH West Oahu. And uh one of my professors is a real fan of yours. And um anyway, uh I just, you know, for me I I came to Hawaii um in 1960 and I found that this was a such a place of Aloha, and I just loved that. I came from New England, and um I just seen so much lost since then, in the Aloha spirit and and just the way people live and and I have such uh reverence for the, you know, Hawaiian um way of life and and the language and the culture. And I feel like we really need to um rekindle, which is being rekindled, and I think that uh, yeah, sovereignty is a way to go that this really should be the sovereign state of Hawaii.
[00:18:59] Randall Roth: Okay.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: Let me let me get a reaction to that. Grace is suggesting that that moving towards sovereignty is going to provide more aloha and presumably greater harmony and that perhaps goes against the grain of what Paul and and Bob are expressing his concerns.
[00:19:19] Bob Midkiff: Well, we have 1,100,000 people in Hawaii. 80% of them are not part of way. And so, the problem is that 20% are saying, well, this is our state. And 80% are saying, well, wait a minute, we live here, too.
[00:19:34] Speaker Grace: Yes. Yes, and this is where I feel that sovereignty is not just for Hawaiian in blood and and uh you know, the thing of it is that um you know, the Hawaiians have so much aloha. They didn't have this this um, you know, ethnic blood thing, you know, it was look they embraced [unintelligible — audio glitch] foreigner that came and they they mingled, they they um, you know, they became one with them, you know, and uh
[00:20:01] Randall Roth: Grace, let's let's see what uh what Bill's thoughts are on that one.
[00:20:05] William Meheula: Well, Grace, I agree with you. I mean, you know, Hawaiians are not saying that this state is our state. We're not saying that the non-Hawaiians should move away. We're not saying that the non-Hawaiians who own land should give their land back to us. What we're saying is that let's use the American system of law to get some compensation and some land for Hawaiians, and let's let's move forward. Right now, there's a disease in our community because Hawaiians have not been treated properly with respect to the overthrow. Let so let's get over that and let's move on.
[00:20:39] Randall Roth: Grace, I appreciate your call. We've got some people on the line. I'm going to move on, but thanks a lot for calling.
[00:20:44] Speaker Grace: Okay. Thank you.
[00:20:45] Randall Roth: Our next caller is from Maui. John from Kahului. Good morning.
[00:20:49] Speaker John: Yes, good morning, and I'm a regular listener of the show, and I think it's it's a great show. The question is probably to Bill, it looks like maybe the Hawaiian community wants to replicate uh what some Indian nations have done, uh supporting gambling as a revenue-generating idea. Uh what do you think of this, Bill?
[00:21:12] William Meheula: You know, my view on what form of the Hawaiian sovereign entity and what that entity is going to do is that that's really up to the Hawaiian people. I mean, my view is that the majority of the Hawaiians are very conservative. They probably at this point don't even want to move to a nation within a nation. Clearly, they don't want to move to an independent nation. And I think you're probably looking at just using the American justice system to get some land and money and put it into a trust and to use that for the welfare and education of Hawaiians. And uh whether that means that they want to use some of their land for casino gambling, I think that's something that that entity would consider at that time and I really don't know enough to to um you know, take a stand on. I can tell you that personally, I don't like gambling, but um that doesn't mean that I would say that I don't want the Hawaiian entity to use it to generate revenue.
[00:22:11] Randall Roth: Thank you, Bill. Thank you, John. Our next caller is Tina from Makiki. Good morning, Tina.
[00:22:16] Speaker Tina: Good morning. Uh my comment was that one thing that has worried me about the Hawaiian sovereignty. I recently heard some people on the TV, they seem to condemn the United States, they condemn it for the overthrow. I don't think the United States was directly involved. They may have accepted it later, but not initially. The other thing, this uh Hawaiian activist was talking about the Civil War in the US as an illustration of what kind of government the US government was. But while they talk about this, they seem to totally ignore the fact that the reason they got the monarchy was because of Kamehameha the First, who went out and carried out a lot of wars, and if you want to say so, maybe stole other early East land. How come they ignore that and condemn the US government?
[00:23:07] Randall Roth: Tina, let's ask Bill Meheula to respond.
[00:23:11] William Meheula: Well, first of all, um the Hawaiians liked it better the way it was under the before the overthrow than now. I mean, right now Hawaiians are suffering, we're at the bottom of the totem pole as far as education and welfare. And on the other hand, we are not saying that Hawaiians are superior or better or or that they were, you know, they didn't do anything wrong. But I would like to um just comment on about your statement that whether the United States was involved in the overthrow. The apology bill signed into law by President Clinton in November of 1993 says, "whereas, without the act of support and intervention by the United States diplomatic and military representatives, the insurrection against the government of Queen Liliuokalani would have failed for lack of popular support and insufficient arms." So it's been admitted by our government that the United States was um involved in the overthrow.
[00:24:14] Speaker Tina: Was that one uh was that a few boats stationed here or was that with knowledge of what prior knowledge of Washington? I don't know if the Washington had prior knowledge in those days.
[00:24:24] Randall Roth: Tina, let me hear from uh from Bob Midkiff on that.
[00:24:27] Bob Midkiff: Uh, I'm I'm quite sure that it was not Washington official policy. John Stevens, the minister here, I'm sure wanted to see this happen. And he was the one who caused the American troops to be landed from the Boston that happened to be in the harbor. But he was his action was not approved by the State Department, that's why I so until later. And then specifically when we had a change in administration very shortly after Anna uh the annexation was proposed, Grover Cleveland sent John Blount to as a Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee of the Democratic of the House at that time, he came out and found that this was a reprehensible action on the part of of John Stevens and of a few people here. But definitely, it was not State Department policy at the time.
[00:25:15] Randall Roth: Let let me ask Bill, Bill, I assume you would say this would be a a real relevant discussion if it weren't for the fact that the US government has recognized in 1993 that it was responsible. Is that what I heard you say earlier?
[00:25:30] William Meheula: Yes, that's true. And and I think the the historical point that has to be added to what Bob said is that right after uh Grover Cleveland left office, the the actions of the overthrowers was was accepted by the United States. Well, later on. Well, 1894. It was after the fact. I mean, the the United States, I don't believe the government instigated it.
[00:25:54] Bob Midkiff: in connection with the Spanish-American War, that's when that changed around.
[00:25:58] William Meheula: No, it was it was condoned by by the committee and its chairman of Senator John Morgan.
[00:26:04] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I tell you what, I want to get Paul Carrington's thoughts on this, Tina, and then we've got several more people on the line. Uh Paul, why don't [unintelligible — audio glitch] want my thoughts on what? I'm a little uh I think that answers my question. We'll we'll move on. Thank you, Tina. Uh our next caller and thank you for waiting patiently. Steve in Hawaii Kai. Good morning, Steve.
[00:26:25] Speaker Steve: Good morning. I'm disappointed in um in Bill's position. I think it's a little too too conservative. In my view, the only version of sovereignty that will work for all of us here in the state would be a separate nation-state. Among other things, I think that uh we are in danger of being swallowed up by the world's principal problem, overpopulation, and that we have no way of protecting ourselves from that fate uh as a one of the 50 states.
[00:26:59] Randall Roth: Okay, Bill, what do you think?
[00:27:01] William Meheula: You know, I think that independence is a concept that uh may have its day, but it's only going to have its day when first of all, the majority of the Hawaiians accept it. And then, equally as important, all of the the residents of the of Hawaii accept it. And, you know, if we're moving toward that and if people can all get into that, then I have no problem with that. It's just what I'm saying is that at this point, I just don't see it happening right now. But I think that you know, the right to self-determination is never ending and that it can evolve into that.
[00:27:39] Paul Carrington: Bill, in my view, you ought to be trying to sell the idea of separate nationhood because if we simply wait for the the parade to catch up with that notion, it's going to be too late.
[00:27:55] William Meheula: Well, let me tell you the reason why I'm not trying to sell that concept now is that I don't think it would work now and and I think it's important that there's so many Hawaiians out there that are suffering that we do get some sort of land base and compensation. And I think if we work within the American justice system that we're going to be able to get something in the near future.
[00:28:17] Randall Roth: Thank you, Steve. Appreciate your call. In case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's topic is sovereignty and its potential impact on the people of Hawaii. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Bob Midkiff, a retired businessman and fifth generation descendant of American missionaries, Bill Meheula, who's an attorney and recent winner of the Bar Association's Justice Award for his pro bono activities on behalf of Hawaiians, and Paul Carrington, a UH visiting law professor, who was dean of the Duke University Law School for many years. Listeners are invited to ask questions or make comments by calling 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are always invited to call collect, the number again, 955-8821.
[00:29:04] Speaker Lela: Lela from Iaea. Good morning. Good morning. I guess I'm changing the topic a little, but I'm thrilled that you're talking about Hawaiian sovereignty, cuz many of us have worked in the movement for years. But there's another topic that I think you might be want uh you know, talking a little bit about, and these are the impediments to sovereignty. What are the roadblocks that are being thrown up? Um because one of the big roadblocks, and Bill is involved in this, is the plebiscite under international law. If Hawaiians vote in what is called a plebiscite, what are the implications?
[00:29:43] Randall Roth: Well, let's let's ask Bill. Bill, could you first explain what your role in the the Hawaiian Sovereignty Elections Council is and and about this plebiscite that Lela is is raising?
[00:29:53] William Meheula: Yeah, the 1993 Hawaii legislature formed the Hawaiian Sovereignty Elections Council. I am one of 20 members, and uh basically we are we have the duty of running the sovereignty elections. The first election would be a plebiscite vote in December of 19 excuse me, December of 1995, which would pose the question to all Hawaiians, shall the Hawaiian people elect delegates to propose a native Hawaiian government? Uh Lela, with respect to your concern that, you know, this is a plebiscite vote, and what are the implications, I guess you're asking if the vote is no, um there are no negative implications to Hawaiians because we are going to put a disclaimer on the ballot that says that this election does not constitute a plebiscite for the purpose of the Hawaiian people relinquishing their right to sovereignty or their national land. So there's should be no uh negative implication.
[00:30:52] Randall Roth: Bob, is this what some groups would call a straw vote, just to kind of see where the sentiment is as opposed to um commit themselves in one way or another?
[00:31:01] William Meheula: No, I think that this plebiscite vote is probably the most important thing that Hawaiians are going to be faced with since the time of the overthrow. Because the problem with Hawaiians, or the or our position right now, and the reason why we can't get back any land, is because we do not have a representative. We haven't had a representative in over 100 years. And without a representative, we can't sit down at the table and play the game and say, for example, if we get a million acres, then we'll release uh the cloud on title to the remaining million acres of the government lands. And you don't recognize OHA, the the Office of Hawaiian Affairs because it was established by the State of Hawaii. Yeah, and the State of Hawaii controls 1.4 million acres of the 1.8 million acres of government and crown lands. And it is a state agency. And although I think OHA is the proper representative of Hawaiians for many uh things, it cannot resolve this claim because of the conflict of interest.
[00:31:57] Speaker Lela: Is this plebiscite an extinguishment of of sovereignty and self-determination for Hawaiians. This is what we are worried about, and since there a number of uh law professors there today, you know, could you talk about how a peoples can extinguish their sovereignty?
[00:32:18] Randall Roth: Is that a worry, Bill?
[00:32:20] William Meheula: No, I, you know, the the right to self-determination, like I said, it is never ending for one. And secondly, we are putting in a disclaimer so that if, for example, the vote is negative and uh and certain Americans want to say, "well, here it is. You've you've already voted that uh you don't want your sovereignty." That's why we're putting in the disclaimer.
[00:33:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Lela, thank you for your call. Our part question. The first is, what sort of timetable would after the plebiscite, are we looking at? And secondly, from going back and forth between Molokai and Honolulu, I seem to see on Honolulu side uh a lot of people like Paul on your program, who seem to discount this movement a lot, and get some feedback as to uh what sort of reactions you have to if this is really happening and where it's going to go. Bill, why don't you respond.
[00:35:13] William Meheula: Well, as far as the timeline goes, like I said, in December of '95, we're going to have the plebiscite vote. If that's yes, then in May of 1997, we're going to have an election of delegates to the Hawaiian Congress or Hawaiian constitutional convention. And the convention would take place in uh July of 1997. At least that's the the current timeline.
[00:35:37] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Arturo?
[00:35:40] Speaker Arturo: How about the lack of uh feedback or taking it seriously by some of the community here?
[00:35:47] Randall Roth: Um well, my personal impression is is just the opposite. Um but I guess that's just a a subjective matter. Bob Midkiff?
[00:35:55] Bob Midkiff: Well, I really agree with very much with Bill here on that we need to do some concrete steps now to alleviate the problems of Hawaiians. I do believe that uh we have failed to take take care or provide for the Hawaiian Homes commissions, and we can chunk that one. We can work on it and do something about it. Congress has appropriated a lot of money to restore Kahoolawe. I'm not sure how that's going to really benefit a lot of people, but uh it is an important uh psychological program. But I think we should legislature should concentrate on on what they can do about the lot of the Hawaiians. We we're going to have a real problem with the cutting back of the and block grant program from the federal government, and that will impact the welfare programs in Hawaii. We all have to concentrate on doing something about the unfortunate status of Hawaiians in Hawaii today.
[00:36:51] Randall Roth: Bob, isn't it your impression that that among non-Hawaiians that the sovereignty movement is taken very seriously and there is a sense that that something needs to be done. The question is, is what and how to do it?
[00:37:03] Bob Midkiff: I think so. I I think we're concerned about the more radical people, uh but [unintelligible — audio glitch] do understand that this is a important way to focus our attention on the needs of the Hawaiian population.
[00:37:18] Speaker Arturo: What about my last question with the $250 million deficit in the state? Does that uh change us anything?
[00:37:25] Randall Roth: Well, we had Earl Anzai, the Director of Budget and Finance on last week and he seemed to indicate that the Cayetano administration was committed to continuing with the uh $30 million per year uh reparation. Uh Bill, have you heard any differently?
[00:37:41] William Meheula: No, that I think that is the opinion or the the position of the uh Cayetano administration. Well, we'll see what the legislature does over the next few months. Thank you, Arturo, we appreciate your call.
[00:37:52] Bob Midkiff: Mahalo.
[00:37:52] Randall Roth: We have another caller, Walter from Waikiki. Good morning, Walter.
[00:37:56] Speaker Walter: Good morning. Um Native Hawaiians are the benefit.
[00:38:00] Speaker Speaker 1: beneficiary of the Hawaiian homes program which has 200,180,000 acres of land which are not being used for Native Hawaiians. Native Hawaiians are the beneficiary of the 5F trust which has 1.4 million acres of land which are not being used for Native Hawaiians. Native Hawaiians of all kinds of all blood quantum are beneficiaries of the $10 billion uh Kamehameha, I mean Bishop the Bishop estate trust. They're also the beneficiaries of the Queen Emma Trust, the Lunalilo Trust. Uh all of these trusts, taken together, probably have enough assets and income, or potential income, to to adequately take care of the health and education of all people in the state of Hawaii. So how does the native Hawaiian benefit from yet another program of sovereignty setting aside some land?
[00:39:10] Speaker Speaker 2: Let's see what Bill has to say about that.
[00:39:13] William Meheula: Well, obviously, the current programs have not been successful because Hawaiians are still on the bottom of of the totem pole with respect to education, welfare in our society, and Hawaiians at this point are saying, you know, you created these these two trusts, the Hawaiian Homelands Trust and the seated lands trust.
[00:39:33] Speaker Speaker 1: Why do you leave out the Bishop estate trust?
[00:39:35] William Meheula: Because that is a private trust.
[00:39:37] Speaker Speaker 1: That is not.
[00:39:38] William Meheula: It is.
[00:39:39] Speaker Speaker 1: It's a public trust. It's a charitable trust and charitable trusts are public trusts. And they're supposed to be used for the purposes the charitable purposes that they're set up for and this one is not.
[00:39:57] William Meheula: Well, as far as the the Hawaiian sovereignty movement goes with respect to to Bishop estate, I think that Bishop estate would be treated like any other private entity. Like I don't expect that the Hawaiian sovereign entity would take my condominium. And, uh, and that's because, um, Pawahie Bishop got those lands by way of the Mahele in 1848 as a private distribution.
[00:40:25] Speaker Speaker 1: They stole them just like the United States did.
[00:40:28] William Meheula: Well, I guess Bill
[00:40:30] Speaker Speaker 1: She set it up for the benefit [unintelligible — audio glitch] Hawaiian people and it's not being used for that.
[00:40:39] William Meheula: Well, while we we appreciate your comments, um, we're going to move on. Thank you for calling.
[00:40:46] Speaker Speaker 1: Well, I'd like to have Professor Carrington
[00:40:49] William Meheula: Well, sure, I I well let me let me say about the Bishop Trust. I I do have a a little bit of reaction to that. I I think there is a problem with the potential Bishop estate. Excuse me, the Bishop estate there undoubtedly are issues about uh that, but there is there is a legal problem that one can speak to, and that is that the estate was created by Bernice Bishop's will and that does uh at least in some measure control what can be done with it. And uh uh we can't have a plebiscite to decide what to do with uh the Bishop estate. That's that's not one of the options. So uh maybe the maybe the estate could be used more prudently and and maybe uh the state has something to say by way of regulation of fiduciary duties uh to see that it is used in an appropriate way but I you can't just have a plebiscite and decide what to do with Bernice Bishop's estate.
[00:41:45] Speaker Speaker 2: Walter, thanks for calling. I didn't mean to cut you off so abruptly. We've got some other folks on the line and and we need to get to them. But thank you very much for calling. In case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's topic is sovereignty and its potential impact on the people of Hawaii. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Bob Midkiff, a retired businessman and fifth generation descendant of American missionaries, uh, Bill Meiheula, who's an attorney and recent winner of the Bar Association's Justice Award for his pro bono activities on behalf of Native Hawaiian groups, and Paul Carrington, a visiting professor, professor at the Law School, who was dean of the Duke University Law School for many years. Listeners are invited to ask questions or make comments by calling 955-8821.
[00:42:31] Speaker Brian: We have a caller from Kauai, Brian. Good morning, Brian. Yes, uh good morning. Uh I have a problem with the use of Hawaii along with America. Uh Hawaii, uh America is uh America and like Europe is Europe and Asia is Asia and Africa is Africa. Hawaii is the Pacific. Uh, if you call it state, but it's nothing to do with America. Let's get away from America. Hawaii is part of United States. Now, uh my uh my thoughts on uh on the sovereignty is that the continuation of the of the nation under the Moai and not under [unintelligible — audio glitch] government form established uh uh under the Tahitian Tahiti-bearing Alii Warriors. Uh that's a completely uh uh different uh different story there.
[00:43:29] Speaker Speaker 2: Brian, let me let me stop and and ask Bill, is this the same point somebody was making earlier about how Kamehameha the first took the land or is this a different point that Brian is making?
[00:43:39] William Meheula: I'm not sure yet.
[00:43:40] Speaker Speaker 2: Go ahead Brian, finish up then.
[00:43:43] Speaker Brian: The the Hawaiians who uh who migrated to uh Tahitian and became uh uh to Tahiti and became Tahitians and returned as uh warriors and war-bearing people and uh conquered the kingdom of of Hawaii which had [unintelligible — audio glitch] war. They weren't a war-bearing people. You talking about, when you talk about the Alii and the Moai, the Moai were the were the people prior to the arrival of the of the Tahitian.
[00:44:14] Speaker Speaker 2: So Brian, instead of going to 1893 and talking about an illegality and an overthrow and stolen lands, you're going back much earlier than that?
[00:44:23] Speaker Brian: Oh, much earlier than that. I, you know, Hawaiian history is is fascinating. I'm uh
[00:44:29] Speaker Speaker 2: Let me let me ask Bill let me ask Bill to respond to that because I it it you know, we began the show by talking about Northern Ireland and Bosnia and this sort of thing. Bill, how do you decide where to go in history, at what point to start trying to make things fair?
[00:44:46] William Meheula: Well, I I think you use, I mean, if you're going to work within the system like I'm obviously trying to do, um, you use what you have. We have the apology bill that goes back to 1893. Um, I've been looking at some stuff recently that may be able to take us back to 1864 when there was a, I believe, an improper decision by the Hawaii Supreme Court with the estate of uh King Kamehameha IV, and that is at that time they changed the character of the crown lands from private lands to government lands. And that's because under international law at that time, if you overtake a nation, that one of the spoils of victory would be the government lands, but not the private lands.
[00:45:26] Speaker Speaker 2: So that goes to the point Bob was making earlier too, I assume.
[00:45:29] William Meheula: Yes. Okay. But as far as going back further than that, um, I, that may be inaccurate account of history, but I just don't see how the current system would accept it.
[00:46:14] Speaker Speaker 2: Okay. Let me let me see what Bob Midkiff had to as to say on that, Brian.
[00:46:17] Bob Midkiff: I studied, um, Western European imperialism and at Yale when I was going there, I wrote a thesis on Hawaiian sovereignty, how it was retained during the 19th century, while all the rest of the world, every except Japan and Thailand and Ethiopia, fell to a colonial power. The remarkable thing about the 19th century is how long Hawaii stayed independent. Uh, and study I I and I've tried to analyze the reasons for it. But I had a great professor at Yale who said, you know, we never should study history. It just brings up unhappiness. Let's look at today and the future and see where we go from here.
[00:46:24] Speaker Speaker 2: Um, Paul I disagree. I disagree Wait a second Brian, wait a second. Uh Paul has not had a chance to put his two bits in on this one. Paul, I know in the piece you did for the advertiser, you commented too that that sometimes people who talk about um the overthrow uh are blind to 19th century imperialism. What what did you mean by that?
[00:46:46] Paul Carrington: Well, only that uh there there were there were an awful lot of sharks out in the sea at that time and uh you can uh focus on uh one the misconduct of one particular group of people and make a big deal out of that but the the conduct was for the most part fairly common garden variety uh conduct for governments and for people. And uh uh I'm sure we can find uh uh other persons to blame for the march of events in the 19th century. There were there's plenty of guilt out there. And I guess that was all I meant to say, was it it's better to try to focus on what we can do for the future than trying to identify uh uh people who uh engaged in misconduct in the past. Particularly when you try to bring that forward a century, you have a real problem trying to figure out who who are the persons who uh are the present victims of of historic injustice and who, if anybody, are the beneficiaries of it, and trying to reallocate all that is I think an impossible undertaking and and it's not not useful to focus too much on the misconduct of the past.
[00:47:57] Speaker Speaker 2: One one sentence from your piece caught my attention. Uh the the article that you wrote, it says, peace is available to those peoples who look to the future, not those who dwell on the past. Um, Brian, we'll let you react to all of this quickly and then we need to move on.
[00:48:13] Speaker Brian: Okay, what I have to say is that I think that people should study the system of the Moai, rather than concentrate on the system of the Alii. The only legal constitutional, uh, the only legal constitution is the Kamehameha III constitution of the 1840s. Uh, I have no Hawaiian blood, my family has been here over a hundred years. I believe that the nation should be in the hands of the Kanakamali, along with the decision-making processes as to the future of the nation of Hawaii and that [unintelligible — audio glitch] other people, I'm sorry, you just got to step aside and when your turn time when your time comes to be dealt with, it'll be dealt with.
[00:49:00] Speaker Speaker 2: Thank you, Brian. Thank you. Bill, did you want to react to anything that uh that Brian shared with us?
[00:49:05] William Meheula: No.
[00:49:08] Speaker Speaker 2: Okay. Uh in in case you joined us late out there, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're talking about sovereignty and its potential impact on the people of Hawaii. My name's Randy Roth and my guests are Bob Midkiff, a retired businessman and fifth generation descendant of American missionaries. Bill Meiheula, who's an attorney and winner of the Bar Association's Justice Award for his work on behalf of Hawaiian groups. And Paul Carrington, a visiting law professor here at UH, and uh former dean at the Duke University School of Law. You're invited to join our conversation to ask questions or make comments, just call 955-8821. The number again, 955-8821.
[00:50:44] Bob Midkiff: I'd like to uh talk about what we can do now and in the future and I'd like to point to concentrate on education. I think the we are the beneficiaries of the Kamehameha schools, they have lots of money. It's $8 billion they have to give away to for the schools, a lot of money. They're doing a fabulous job in early education, I think that's one of the most exciting programs we have in away today. They're starting with the traveling preschools and getting out and getting kids ready for school. When they get to school, I'm not sure that they stay ready. I think the the problem is the public education system needs to really be revamped. In order to get us ready for the information age. Kids coming out of school are ready to work on cars and and work in the sugar cane fields a lot of them, but not ready to work on computers and in the information age. I think we need to really change the focus of our education so that people will be able to take to work in the jobs which are necessary in the information age.
[00:50:56] William Meheula: Any reaction to that? Oh, I think that's true. I mean, I hopefully one of the one of the benefits of Hawaiian sovereignty is that we'll be able to push uh education for Hawaiians, um, and but that need that takes money and that takes resources. I think one of the things that I've learned um in the hanging around the sovereignty people is that um, Malama um, Malama Aina and that is caring for the land. And that is that is a concept that I think is is an underlying movement of the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. Um, there's there's a feeling among indigenous peoples around the world that when others came into their land and took over the land, they ruined the land and that they want the land back so that they can care for it for future generations. And I think that's one of the reasons why if Hawaiians have a claim to the government and the ground lands, they want that land, not only for monetary purposes or for economic purposes, but also to take care of the land.
[00:51:58] Paul Carrington: Paul, I know you're coming from outside of Hawaii. You've not been here long, but sometimes people who are very close to an issue don't have a perspective that somebody who just steps in and looks at it might have. Is there anything that hasn't been said today or any observations that you might have about things that have been said that might add to our understanding of our own situation? Well, maybe only to say that uh these uh impulses on the part of Hawaiians are not uh not so unique as they sometimes see seem from the perspective of of the islands themselves. And uh uh it's uh certainly the problem of the land is uh as Bill suggests, a universal problem for indigenous people, but it's not just a problem for indigenous people. It's it's everybody's concerned about about the treatment of the land. The fact is there's too many people uh and in a world with the 10 billion and uh folks in it, we that's a a very serious problem for all of us and it's not just a problem for uh for Hawaiians.
[00:53:01] Paul Carrington: The other thing that that has not been said is there are some some other legal problems. Hawaii uh for better or for worse is is part of the United States. There's some constitutional limitations on the sovereignty movement. I one speaks to the right of self-determination, but the United States uh is a uh we did fight a war on the question of uh of uh solubility, insolubility of that union and uh Bob mentioned Lincoln's birthday, and [unintelligible — audio glitch] think we we do have to reinforce that that we the United States is not prepared at this die time or anytime in the foreseeable future to uh disintegrate and so uh what is done in Hawaii has to be done within the parameters of what American law can accommodate and that that it's pretty accommodating body of law, but uh uh it it does pose some limits and that that I think needs to be recognized.
[00:53:57] Speaker Eric: We have a caller from Honoka, Eric. Good morning. Good morning. Um, I would like to uh bring up the point of Bishop estate again as regards uh benefiting the Hawaiians. Um, My impression as observers from over here is that uh, without knowing the exact terms of the trust, was that the Bishop estate was set up to benefit Hawaiians. And in uh I was wondering whether or not the state or the powers that be could take a more active role in uh ensuring that the Bishop estate does fulfill its terms of its trust.
[00:54:40] Speaker Speaker 2: Well, Eric, we've uh invited several of the Bishop estate trustees to um to join us sometime soon to talk about that and a whole host of issues, and uh we haven't yet pinned that down, but uh we're sure working on it. Uh I don't know if any of my guests in the studio want to respond to Eric's comment about the Bishop Estate. Bob Midkiff?
[00:55:03] Bob Midkiff: Well, my father was deeply involved with the Bishop estate for a great many years. He was a trustee as I recall. He was president of Kamehameha schools and then a trustee until his death and so he was I grew up on the Kamehameha schools campus right where the Aten Hall is today. The the trust is quite specific. It's to build a school for Hawaiian boys [unintelligible — audio glitch] girls and to make them good industrious citizens. Uh they have extended that beyond the school. They've they've gone out to help in primarily Hawaiian areas, the public schools and they they also work in this early education program. There's much more that can be done, of course, and but they do have the funds to do it, and I think they should be brought always to question as to whether they're doing the utmost they can in the field of education for Hawaiians.
[00:55:57] Speaker Speaker 2: Okay, well we'll work hard to get the trustees here and Eric, uh hope you'll call back when they're here.
[00:56:02] Speaker Eric: All right. Thank you.
[00:56:03] Speaker Speaker 2: Thank you. Bye-bye.
[00:56:05] William Meheula: Bill, earlier you said on on a couple of occasions uh that we aren't asking for this, or we aren't saying that as as if the Hawaiian movement has has one voice and I know you didn't mean it that way. But I think that's a source of frustration for some people that uh there are many voices on Hawaiian sovereignty from the Hawaiian community and some of the voices are at at the extremes of the the spectrum. What kind of challenge is that for you as a as a leader in that movement? Well, first of all, I thought I qualified my statements by saying that I believe the majority of the Hawaiians feel this way or feel that way, as opposed to that we feel this way or we feel that way. And that's just my perception from reading in the paper and talking to people and and so forth. But, you know, there are
[00:57:00] Speaker Speaker 1: are a number of views on Hawaiian sovereignty from the Hawaiian community, and I think that's natural when you're trying to get to the point where there is one entity to represent the Hawaiians. And like I said earlier, I think it's very important that that entity be formed, and I'm hopeful that this plebiscite vote would be the the first step in that process.
[00:57:20] Randall Roth: So this will focus, bring those voices closer together?
[00:57:24] Speaker Speaker 1: Yes, they they can all elect their delegates to the convention. They can all share their views as to what this Hawaiian sovereign entity should be and the leaders who have the most support can lead.
[00:57:37] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we have several more callers on the line. Harry from Waikiki. Good morning, Harry.
[00:57:42] Speaker Harry: Good morning.
[00:57:43] Randall Roth: What can we do for you?
[00:57:45] Speaker Harry: I am disappointed that nobody has talked about Henry George of the Maryland bill, which is currently circulating around all the legislative bodies, people. And that would remove much of the problems that the the world is suffering from, if the Henry George principles were applied.
[00:58:10] Randall Roth: Give all the land to the government?
[00:58:12] Speaker Harry: No, it doesn't matter who owns the land, you pay a rent per annum on the undeveloped site value rating, and that removes the need for taxing wages and goods.
[00:58:25] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let me get a couple reactions to that. Anyone in the studio?
[00:58:32] William Meheula: Harry, I I think we all need a little education on Henry George's principles. It hasn't come to the top of our brains at the present time.
[00:58:41] Speaker Harry: Harry sure, and it isn't even on the agenda of the education boards [unintelligible — audio glitch] the children.
[00:58:49] Randall Roth: Well, Harry, I haven't I haven't heard the name since my economics 101 class, but we're down to the last few minutes, and and that's a pretty big subject. So I appreciate your call, but we're going to we're going to have to move on. Thank you, Harry. Our next caller is from Maui. Jay. Good morning, Jay.
[00:59:08] Speaker Jay: Good morning, sir. I um first, I would say that history does make some sense to someone like me, that years ago that the United States did some despicable things, but that was another time within another context. As it is now, Hawaii is a state of United States, if the sovereignty issue shall want to take the statehood out to become independent nation, then I would say that I'm not see yes or no, but it's subject to every citizens and residents of Hawaii's vote, whether they want it that way or not. But if for the sovereignty meaning the legal right to control the crown land or whatever and title to the folks with Hawaiian blood, then I'm all for it.
[01:00:10] Randall Roth: Well, let's see what Bill Mehula has to say about that, Jay.
[01:00:14] William Meheula: I agree with everything you said.
[01:00:16] Randall Roth: Hey Jay, you're on a roll. Is that it, Jay?
[01:00:22] Speaker Jay: Yeah.
[01:00:23] Randall Roth: Thank you. We really appreciate your uh your sharing that with us. Um, you know at the beginning of the show Bill, you said that that Hawaiians believe in in letting people speak their peace [unintelligible — audio glitch] listening to what they have to say. Um, there is an element uh in the community, I think, that at least is giving the impression that that it's not okay for non-Hawaiians to talk about sovereignty. And I know um couple of those folks expressed their feelings to to Paul Carrington, and I I'm just wondering, how do you feel about that? And and in some cases, threats have been made when when non-Hawaiians would start talking about the issue. Uh, different kinds of threats. Number one, are you aware of that and two, how do you feel about it?
[01:01:09] William Meheula: Oh sure, I'm aware of that. You know, one of the things I've been disappointed in about the press is that is that the local newspapers always put out, I think, the more radical end of our movement as opposed to the middle ground.
[01:01:23] Randall Roth: And I think that's true.
[01:01:24] William Meheula: And you know, it's not to say that the middle ground is correct, but but there is this middle ground, and and I think it represents the majority of the Hawaiians. And I was talking generally about the Hawaiian character, Hawaiian culture, and I believe my statements were accurate, despite the fact that there may be some Hawaiians who don't practice that all the time.
[01:01:44] Randall Roth: Uh, what have we not covered this morning? We have about three minutes to go. Is there some aspect of this topic that we haven't covered that we do need to say something about before we move on?
[01:01:57] William Meheula: Bob Midkiff? I think one of the prime needs right now is to find jobs for young undereducated Hawaiian boys. There's no place for them to work, and I I think we need to look at the more government financing for policemen, for um lifeguards, for firemen, things that they can with their education cope with and uh provide them meaningful careers.
[01:02:25] Randall Roth: And you were saying earlier a different kind of education.
[01:02:28] William Meheula: Right. Okay. Bill? Randy, I think the one thing that we didn't say is that I think that the Hawaiian sovereignty movement can achieve something in gaining substantial government or crown lands in the near future. And the reason for that is that we have been able to tie up the state's land. The state cannot sell its government and crown lands now because there's a cloud on title created by the apology bill. We filed a lawsuit to that effect to stop the transfer of 500 acres in Lahaina to Seabroer, and there is no title company that will issue title insurance.
[01:03:01] Randall Roth: You know, I'm not sure listeners really understand that, and you were lead counsel on that case. Uh, can you explain or just say again just what the implications of that case are?
[01:03:11] William Meheula: Well, what we did was the the state made a mistake by trying to sell um seated lands, and so we filed an injunction lawsuit to stop it. And the state tried to sell it anyway to Seabroer, and Seabroer couldn't obtain title insurance. And the reason for that is because there's a cloud on all of the seated lands because there's a question as to who really owns the owns the land, and the basis for that cloud is the apology bill.
[01:03:36] Randall Roth: And so now that it's been litigated, the state's hands are really tied.
[01:03:40] William Meheula: Yeah, and so it's in the state's interest to sit down and do a deal now, and to say, okay, we've got 1.4 million acres of seeded lands. If we give you X amount, would you clear title to the balance? I think that if the majority of Hawaiians understood that, they would know that once this sovereign Hawaiian entity is created, that entity can actually sit down at the table and do a deal.
[01:04:02] Randall Roth: Mhm. Boy, you're you're thinking like a trial lawyer here. This must frustrate them for you to be winning from the inside of the system, huh?
[01:04:10] William Meheula: I hope so.
[01:04:12] Randall Roth: Paul Carrington, do you have any thoughts on this?
[01:04:14] Paul Carrington: Well, I I underscore what Bob said. I and to say that those are problems that everybody on the mainland understands, too. Uh, we've got plenty of kids in North Carolina who uh are facing the same kind of of difficulty uh that their uh educational resources are not up to the marketplace. And uh it's a it's a very deep problem in many countries right now, and uh I don't know exactly what the answer is, but uh all I say is uh we share that difficulty and and we wish you well in solving it.
[01:04:47] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, we have Gallard from Hiku on the line, but Gallard, we just don't have enough time to really uh give you an opportunity to express your thoughts. If you'll stay on the line, once our show is over this morning, we'll uh we'll be sure to have uh the appropriate guest talk to you about whatever it is that you want to raise. Uh, I want to thank my guests this morning from for joining us. Uh Bob Midkiff, who's a retired businessman, fifth generation descendant of American missionaries, uh Bill Meheula, who's an attorney, winner of the Justice Award for his pro bono legal services on behalf of Native Hawaiian groups, and Paul Carrington, a visiting professor at the UH Law School, who for many years was Dean of the Duke University School of Law.
[01:05:28] Randall Roth: The price of Paradise is produced by Suzy Roth. The technical director is Jeff Hilardi. Support on the telephones this morning was provided by Bessie Carrington. We hope you'll join us next week when our guest will be Susan Chandler, the new director of the Department of Human Services, and Dean New Bauer, professor of political science at the University of Hawaii. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.