Hawaii's Future: Lucky we live Hawaii?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1993-07-01
Guests: A.A. "Bud" Smyser (columnist, Honolulu Star-Bulletin); Herb Cornuelle (retired Trustee, Campbell Estate)
Duration: 0:26:42

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Our guests this morning are Bud Smiser, contributing editor of the Honolulu Star Bulletin, and Herb Cornell, former Chairman of the Campbell Estate Board of Trustees. But, every community has its challenges. What are some of Hawaii's?
[00:00:27] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: My feeling is we have three paramount ones. One is the need for moral leadership to restore the social health, um and stop the decadence that we see in our government and community. The second is for a government that is lean, clean, and competent. And the third is to save the Aloha Spirit. I I think it's under attack and I think we've got to do our best to see that we keep it alive and well because very much of Hawaii's aliveness and wellness depends on it.
[00:00:54] Randall Roth: But I know in your chapter to the Price of Paradise book, you were fairly critical of current political leadership, suggesting that it wasn't everything that that it should be. Um any specific thoughts about why uh it's not what it should be or specific examples of where it's fallen short?
[00:01:08] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Well, we've just seen recently the the death of a couple of prominent Democrats from years past, Minoru Hirabaru and Tadashi Beppu. They're from the days of the idealistic politicians. They really wanted to use statehood and their party, their party dominance and government to improve the community. Recently, someone told me, someone who's inside government, it used to be all things being equal, take care of your friends, and he said now it's just take care of your friends. I don't think that's all through government, but it's pretty deep in some pockets of government.
[00:01:36] Randall Roth: Herb, what do you think about that?
[00:01:49] Herb Cornuelle: Well, I think it's true. I think part of the problem that we have here is that there are very few people sitting critically on the city hall steps or on the state capitol steps, speaking out frankly about problems with the government. The reason, I think, is that government is so pervasive here. Almost every business has so many permissions and permits and and uh other approvals that government and only government can give that they can't risk uh they're placing the community by being critical and outspoken in the way that they might in other places.
[00:02:17] Randall Roth: So there's a a fear factor?
[00:02:31] Herb Cornuelle: I think so.
[00:02:44] Randall Roth: Do you think that fear is well-founded?
[00:02:58] Herb Cornuelle: Well, these people in government have the power to make or break break many, many business deals, many. So, it may not be fear in many cases, it may just be realism. It's a realistic problem.
[00:03:26] Randall Roth: A realistic fear.
[00:03:39] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: A realistic fear.
[00:03:53] Randall Roth: Um is political fundraising somehow tied into this? Somebody once suggested that political fundraising in Hawaii was [unintelligible — audio glitch] legal form of extortion. Is that even close to the truth? Herb, what do you think?
[00:04:20] Herb Cornuelle: I don't think it's extortion. I think it uh is almost so much of fundraising happens after the fact of the election, that it's almost a a payment for services expected in some cases. But I don't think it's extortion.
[00:04:34] Randall Roth: If if a company that does a lot of work with government were to stop making political contributions, do you think they would get less work with the government?
[00:04:48] Herb Cornuelle: I know it's hard to say. My answer My answer to that is probably yes. And the the companies that do work with the government that in large amounts don't get just one or two campaign tickets, uh campaign dinner tickets to sell, they get they get a great big batch and they're expected to swallow them somehow.
[00:05:15] Randall Roth: Is is that unique to Hawaii or is politics like that everywhere? Bud?
[00:05:29] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Oh, I really can't speak to other areas, but I thought a lot about how we change it and I think it's very hard to change because the average person like me doesn't give more than 25 or 50 bucks to a candidate. And I do that very very rarely, uh partly because as a newspaper man, I think I ought to stay back but also because I don't have the money. But uh and and I don't have the business interest in doing it. But uh the only alternative I see is government financing of the campaign. That's not so hot either.
[00:05:43] Randall Roth: But uh Herb, do you see any answers?
[00:05:57] Herb Cornuelle: Well, I the comment that I was going to make was that I think the only way it would stop is if everybody stopped. You know, if the whole of the business community would say, take the pledge, I think that might make a difference.
[00:06:10] Randall Roth: So maybe we could take our take our lead from the drug campaign and just say no?
[00:06:24] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Well, I it's I doubt if it's a realistic expectation, but I do think that that's about the only way it's going to happen.
[00:06:38] Randall Roth: If there were some idealist out there that wanted to at least give it a shot, how would they go about trying to arrange that?
[00:06:52] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Well, they'd probably be trying to do something in restraint of trade. They would, and and to the extent that political contributions are trade, I think they'd have to get a lot of business people together.
[00:07:05] Randall Roth: So it's just not practical.
[00:07:19] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: I don't think so. In in Great Britain, it's handled to some extent by the fact that the election campaigns are very short and uh [unintelligible — audio glitch] usually staff. You don't know exactly when they're coming. And and politicians also are under strict limits as to how much they can spend.
[00:07:33] Randall Roth: A word that you hear a lot these days is cronyism. Either of you want to take a stab at defining that and then sharing with our listeners whether you think it's a a big problem or or not a problem at all?
[00:07:46] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: I think I touched it uh a minute ago when I said that the new rule is not just take care of your friends. All things being equal is take care of your friends. And I think the feeling that government takes care of the friends of a lot of high-placed people um and usually big contributors, is pervasive. I mean, the feeling is is stronger than the established fact. But we've seen enough facts in regard to say the retirement system and uh none-bid purchases and so on to to think that there's some fire where the smoke is.
[00:08:00] Randall Roth: Herb, um are you optimistic about the economic future of Hawaii? Are we headed in the right direction? And if not, what would you do to change that?
[00:08:14] Herb Cornuelle: I'd prefer answering the first part of your question to the second.
[00:08:28] Randall Roth: We'll throw we'll throw the second part to Bud.
[00:08:41] Herb Cornuelle: All right. The it's hard to see a lot of reason to be optimistic about the future of Hawaii right now. Things are not going our way. Uh I used to say that Hawaii had a vested interest in peace never coming to the world. Now it's here. So it's not only the tourist industry that's in trouble, and sugar and pineapple, but it's also the basic uh industry, tourism. Uh I think we're in for a fairly long turnaround.
[00:09:09] Randall Roth: By long, are we talking about four or five years?
[00:09:23] Herb Cornuelle: Four or five years.
[00:09:36] Randall Roth: Bud, what do you think?
[00:09:50] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: My feeling is if it's not a great big disastrous blow, say like the depression of 1929 in the early 30s. If it's more moderate, it it might make us look at ourselves and shape up, and that that could be a plus.
[00:10:04] Randall Roth: Oh, yeah. I know uh a week or so ago we had Leroy Laney from First Hawaiian Bank and David McLean from the School of Business at UH and they were saying that one of the problems that Hawaii has had is that it's been too lucky, that we've had a a long spell of economic success that's made us get a bit complacent and we haven't had to make hard choices. Uh do you agree with that, Herb?
[00:10:18] Herb Cornuelle: I do. I think euphoria has been a problem for Hawaii almost forever. And you have to admit, it's hard to think things are really tough when then look out the window and see the blue skies and the beautiful scenery.
[00:10:31] Randall Roth: Have have we sobered up yet or uh what would sober us up to where we can see that we've got tough times ahead?
[00:10:45] Herb Cornuelle: I don't think we sobered up yet, and I do think that the only thing will do it is a high rate of unemployment. This will more quickly make something happen than anything else I can think of.
[00:10:59] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: I'm afraid a high rate of unemployment, which I agree with her, but I think it's going to bring with it a high rate of bitterness, and maybe even an undertone of ethnic bitterness, and I'm very scared of that.
[00:11:13] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio program. I'm Randy Roth, and our guests this week are Bud Smiser, contributing editor of the Honolulu Star Bulletin, and Hor- Herb Cornell, for- former Chairman of the Campbell Estate. Herb, earlier, when Bud was commenting on his primary concerns, uh those challenges that we face as a community that he thinks are the greatest, he mentioned loss of Aloha Spirit. Um what do you think? Are we losing it?
[00:11:40] Herb Cornuelle: Well, if we're not losing it, we're we're uh spreading it around very thinly. The the problem is that it's the very kind of thing, it's the self uh sort of um self liquidating kind of an asset, and if you try to spread it out over 10 million people, it's a different problem or opportunity than if it were only a 10th of that. So I think that's probably the problem. I- it's hard to generalize about it because in some places it's living and well, and uh in other places, uh it's not so good, but [unintelligible — audio glitch] think it's a I think it's real.
[00:12:07] Randall Roth: So when people talk about limits to growth and sometimes mention water or traffic or or jobs, you're saying maybe, uh loss of Aloha Spirit is, uh perhaps one of the first things to go if we get too big?
[00:12:21] Herb Cornuelle: I suppose so. I I'm mindful of the fact that Aloha Spirit may be a technical term. I think it means different things to different people.
[00:12:35] Randall Roth: What does it mean to you?
[00:12:49] Herb Cornuelle: It means the spirit of goodwill and a welcome to the eclectic kind of contributions to our to our culture and our economy and to to our way of life.
[00:13:02] Randall Roth: Bud, you raised concerns initially about Aloha Spirit. Um, you agree with what Herb said about it?
[00:13:16] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: I I agree with Herb that the pressures of population and traffic and so on are eroding it. I'm glad to say it it exists uh strongly in some pockets. Just the other day, I heard a really heartwarming story about a young woman from Texas who is pregnant with twins and who suddenly was told to Kai's hospital that she had to lie flat on her back for the next four months and couldn't go back to Texas with her husband and three-year-old daughter. And the way the nurses at Kaiser and the way other people in the community rallied around to help her through this period is it just heartwarming.
[00:13:30] Randall Roth: Is um uh is the general loss of Aloha Spirit? There are examples such as the one you just give, is the general loss of Aloha Spirit something that that people individually can do something about or do they just go out and try to help others the way you've just described some people at the hospital doing?
[00:13:44] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: I believe you both practice it and preach it. Practices is probably the first thing to do. Uh preaching without practicing it is recognized for what it is, but uh You do the best you can.
[00:13:57] Randall Roth: You do the best you can. Herb, what are we going to do with all the land as uh sugar and pineapple fall by the wayside, if indeed that uh will continue to happen. I'm told that over the last 25 years, approximately 166,000 acres of land that was in um farming, pineapple and and sugar production uh has gone out of production and that uh many more hundreds of thousands are probably going to follow. What's going to happen to all that land?
[00:14:25] Herb Cornuelle: My my answer is in the my favorite line from Fiddler on the Roof when the fella says, I'll tell you the truth, I don't know. It's very hard to see what useful purpose uh can be uh found for the for that enormous amount of real estate. There have been all kinds of calculations of how much real estate would be needed to make us self-sufficient on truck crops. It's a patch on a a small patch on the number you mentioned. That's it's it's very hard to see and yet the land, if it isn't in some useful purpose, will lose its amenity value to our our tourists, you know, they'd be driving through different kinds of scenery. I think it's a real problem and I do not know the answer.
[00:14:52] Randall Roth: I'll bet Bud does.
[00:15:06] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: I I think I know a partial answer and that's one that was the topic of one of your past shows Randy, golf courses. I mean, if if you go down to the island of Maui and look up there on the side of the of the road as you drive out from Wailea to to Lahaina, they're at Waipupu, they're 350 acres, amid all the brown scrub hillside that have been turned green. And lo and behold, what are they been turned green by? Golf courses. And as Bruce Plash may have told your audience, he's done a lot of figures showing that this is a win-win thing for the community. It uses less water than sugar, it employs more people than sugar. It's a real plus. But somehow or other our politicians have this emotional desire to bang it and clobber it and do everything else. We ought to be encouraging it.
[00:15:20] Randall Roth: Is it the politicians or is it the community? There have been some studies to suggest that there's fairly wide uh disagreement in the community as to whether or not golf courses are good, and quite a few people who think they're not.
[00:15:33] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Well, here's where leadership comes into the act. [unintelligible — audio glitch] think uh I think that's correct. There's a widespread feeling, but I believe some um some brave brave leaders could do a job of turning the public around on this topic because obviously there's some places where golf courses shouldn't be, but they're many, many places like the places at Waipupu where they're just a plus plus plus situation.
[00:15:47] Herb Cornuelle: Well, I'd like to make a comment. I but I don't think that the golf courses are going to be that economic. You have golf courses now that are uh not finished and are not being worked on. I think that the the problem with golf courses is going to be a problem of supply and demand, and I don't see uh a a limitless demand for for golf. David Ramsar uses the example that Ireland promotes itself as the golf capital of Europe. Mhm. And that it has one golf course for every 10,000 residents of Ireland. Mhm. So we have only one for every 50,000 residents of Hawaii, and if we promote ourselves as a golf capital of the Pacific, there might be we might make some spare change there.
[00:16:15] Randall Roth: What about tourism in general, Herb? I are we um going after more tourists and if so, how many more tourists? And if we are going to have a lot more of them, isn't it likely that uh golf courses will be in demand?
[00:16:28] Herb Cornuelle: Yes then no, I think is probably the answer. I feel that we have to look for the, and Bud has heard me say this a lot of times. I think we ought to look for a different kind of tourist. The East-West center to me is the ideal kind of tourist. They bring funds here, they bring ideas here, they bring an intellectual stimulation that transcends just coming and staying in hotel rooms and going to the beach and that sort of thing. And I think in our our location, we ought to be able to find ways and means to attract lots of different people who come and stay longer, meetings, international meetings, that sort of thing. I think that's a that's a plus. Just I just don't feel that we're going to be able to compete very well for the rank and file tourist from uh from around the world anytime in the next two or three, four years.
[00:16:42] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Even the kind of tourists that you describe though might want to round of golf on the side, and uh it be one reason for for coming to Hawaii to to work work very seriously, but then take a day off and do a little playing, too.
[00:16:56] Randall Roth: But how well have we as a community done in uh attracting international business people to Hawaii to to make Hawaii the the center of the emerging Pacific?
[00:17:10] Herb Cornuelle: Not very well.
[00:17:23] Randall Roth: What haven't we done that we could have done or or what have we tried to do but not done well?
[00:17:37] Herb Cornuelle: [unintelligible — audio glitch] think in telecommunications we haven't lived up to our potential. I think the I think the truth is emerging that we're as a community pretty insular and not turned on to international visitors. I'm I'm not sure that we give a businessman, and Herb could answer this better than I could, a businessman wanting to locate here a sense that he's in a in a dynamic place.
[00:17:51] Randall Roth: So, why dynamic, Herb?
[00:18:05] Herb Cornuelle: Well, sometimes. It has been. The the comment I'd like to make is about the international business coming here. And I feel that the in my experience, and we used to have all kinds of campaigns to get to attract regional headquarters here and and that sort of thing and some of some of it was successful. But invariably, these people wanted some kind of guarantee that the children of their managers would be able to get into Iolani or Punahou or mid-Pacific or somewhere because they were not impressed with the quality of the public schools here. I think that's a problem.
[00:18:18] Randall Roth: The long-term answer to that, partly, is to have a good public school system, but that's really a long-term job and we're gone down rather than up at the moment. What's what's the first step that we should take, Bud, in getting a good public school system?
[00:18:46] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Well, I've got
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: three steps. [unintelligible — audio glitch] like Charlie Taguchi, but I think I would put a better manager at the top of the department. Um, and secondly, I think I'd get the principals out of the union and thirdly thirdly I would go for schools of choice or voucher system. Herb, does that make sense to you sense to you?
[00:19:38] Herb Cornuelle: Well, I spent a few years on the Hawaii Business Round table in which we were trying to work hand in hand with the Department of Education to raise the quality of education in the public schools here, and there were modest successes. I feel that it may be necessary for a business to take a much more aggressive critical stand in order to have something happen and happen in a in a major way, the kind of way that Bud's talking about.
[00:19:57] Randall Roth: Why hasn't the business community done that?
[00:20:17] Herb Cornuelle: Well, I think partly is because we live on an island. We we are a very close net. You can find the edge of our community just by looking at there. You don't want to get in trouble with the powers that be.
[00:20:36] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio program. I'm Randy Roth, and our guests this week are Bud Smizer, contributing editor of the Honolulu Star Bulletin, and Herb Cornell, former chairman of the Campbell Estate. Bud, is government in Hawaii too big?
[00:20:55] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Yes.
[00:21:14] Randall Roth: What do we do about it?
[00:21:34] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: I would propose a rule that we cannot add one single employee to government that every time we find [unintelligible — audio glitch] need that needs to be filled, we fill it by getting rid of a job somewhere else, either by attrition or buy out of the personnel and so on. I don't think that's totally practical, but I I think we could come close to it. And as it is, I think under Governor Wahi we've had to build new state office buildings. We've the employment and government has gone up much faster than the total population. And now I read that even Mayor Fazi, who I thought was somewhat more efficient, wants to build a new municipal building to house more city employees. [unintelligible — audio glitch] think we're going to have too many government employees riding on the backs of the rest of us.
[00:21:53] Randall Roth: Herb, that makes sense to you?
[00:22:12] Herb Cornuelle: The problem makes, I I think he's identified the problem, but how to do something about it is beyond me. It's it has such a a momentum build up that it's very hard to um to do anything about it.
[00:22:31] Randall Roth: I have a question for you, Herb. As a businessman who also knows a lot about government, do you think government is being run as efficiently as it should be run, or could be run?
[00:22:51] Herb Cornuelle: No, I don't think it is. I don't think many businesses are being run as efficiently as they as they could be. I think the whole idea of having the government run out as a business is a myth. You can't When you're in government, you have none of the tools that businessmen have to to make changes. Uh you can't fire people, you can't shift them laterally to another job, you can't pay them a big bonus for great achievement. So it's very hard to get government to be efficient. Well I'm sitting here with two guys, I would love to see either of you run for governor because I recognize you both as public spirited citizens, who've given lots of time, uh lots of thought, lots of dedication to the community. Is either of you going to announce you'll run?
[00:23:10] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: One of us isn't. That makes two.
[00:23:29] Randall Roth: Uh Bud, you just finished writing a series of columns for the Star Bulletin on the Bishop Estate. Uh very briefly because we're running out of time, are the trustees of the Bishop Estate doing a good job? We know they're compensated very well. Are they doing a good job? Are they earning that compensation?
[00:23:48] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Well, you ought to ask the former chairman of the Campbell Estate, but anyway, maybe he wouldn't want to answer. So, I will say that I don't think they're doing nearly as good a job as they could. I think they could improve in many ways. And the the big thing is, they're preserving their corpus as they call it, the capital. It's now anywhere between $4 and $10 billion. They aren't educating enough Hawaiian children. They could afford to educate a lot more than they aren't.
[00:24:08] Randall Roth: What about sovereignty? That's the the wild card in just about every topic that has been raised today. Uh, what's going to happen with sovereignty?
[00:24:27] Herb Cornuelle: My thought is that if we could work sovereignty out in an agreeable way, I I take all these questions. I think I think you're the one that's going to run for governor, but I'm I'm on your side.
[00:24:46] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Well, my thought is if we could work sovereignty out in a reasonably contentious [unintelligible — audio glitch] nonetheless uh calm manner in the community by discussion back and forth without raising racial and ethnic hatreds, it could be a real plus for the community. If the latter happens, we're in trouble. I think it's very very hard to deal with such a question in a very brief and simple way. The someone once said that you shouldn't deal with issues that could be written on the side of a t-shirt. Sovereignty is a big, complex, ever-changing set of ideas. And I think it's going to be a long time and take a lot of very effective intellectual effort as well as political effort to sort out what it really means. Mhm. I think it's very difficult to find a consensus even among a small group in this community as to what it really means. So, [unintelligible — audio glitch] think uh it's a very very complex problem and it's and it's wrong to portray it as something that can be dealt with simply and quickly.
[00:25:05] Randall Roth: I see.
[00:25:25] Herb Cornuelle: That's the voice of wisdom talking. Gentlemen, lucky we live Hawaii?
[00:25:44] A.A. "Bud" Smyser: Yes.
[00:26:03] Herb Cornuelle: Herb? I'm not moving.
[00:26:22] Randall Roth: You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio program. I'm Randy Roth. Our guest this week were Bud Smizer, contributing editor of the Honolulu Star Bulletin, and Herb Cornwell, former chairman of the Campbell Estate. Aloha.