HECO Power Lines
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-07-06
Guests: Henry Curtis (Executive Director, Life of the Land); Chuck Freedman (executive, Hawaiian Electric Company); Kerstan J. Wong (project manager, Hawaiian Electric Company)
Duration: 0:35:02

[00:00:04] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic today has to do with Hawaiian Electrics plans to build a new transmission line.

[00:00:35] Randall Roth: With us in the studio are Henry Curtis and Cat Brady from the Life of the Land Environmental Action Group along with Kirsten Wong and Chuck Friedman from Hawaiian Electric Company. Chuck, uh how about a real quick statement of the the background on this thing, the big picture?

[00:00:51] Chuck Freedman: There's a excellent article in this morning's paper by Kirsten Wong about this, by the way. Uh, we get our power and uh have for many years from generation plants in Leeward Oahu. And for many years the the source for that power in terms of transmission were lines that went along what we call a northern corridor. Early in the 1980s following an island wide blackout an independent consultant came in and and told the company something that I think we already knew which is that we needed more than one transmission corridor as well as a northern corridor, we needed a southern corridor for what's called reliability purposes.

[00:01:22] Chuck Freedman: And so for over 10 years now, the company's been uh planning and developing and building a second line, a southern corridor. The last link of that line has to be constructed and that's really what we're talking about uh today. But I think people need to remember that it's it's part of a much bigger system that's already in place, a southern corridor that's in place. Quickly two concepts. One uh having to do with need. One is customer use and that has uh it goes without pretty much saying that people are using more and more electricity. Um, so that's a customer use issue but a second issue is reliability and reliability has to do with backup.

[00:02:00] Chuck Freedman: And when you have a a a northern line and a and a southern line which we're proposing to build, you basically can build you can bring power in from from either way and electricity is magical. It will go north to south, south to north, whatever option you give it. And with this new system, this new line, additional link, if there's a problem in one place we can basically change the way the the power's flowing through the transmission lines and it will increase people's reliability.

[00:02:25] Randall Roth: So as I understand it, based on usage today, if everything is working just fine, we really don't need it. But number one, usage is probably going to increase and if so, we'll need it. Or even if it doesn't increase, it's nice to have redundancy so that there is if there is a problem in the existing line, then we still have electricity. Do I have that right?

[00:02:46] Chuck Freedman: Very good for a law professor.

[00:02:48] Randall Roth: Thank you. I appreciate that. Kirsten Wong, you're the project manager who's in charge of well, a number of things but those things include the design and construction of this particular proposed line. Where are we in the planning process?

[00:03:01] Kerstan J. Wong: Right now, we're in the middle of a draft environmental impact statement. We're looking at several routes both underground and overhead and you know, there's a lot of concerns that were brought to us from the community, so right now we're just trying to put the data and analysis into the draft environmental impact statement, and which we should come out for publication to the public in the fall of this year.

[00:03:21] Randall Roth: Well now, who actually puts this statement together and how much input does the community or anyone other than Hawaiian Electric have so far as the statement is concerned?

[00:03:32] Kerstan J. Wong: Well, we've hired on CH2M Hill and that's their expertise is to put together environmental impact statements. But they have gathered input from the communities, for example, when we first started the EIS process, we used the neighborhood board system to gather input from the communities and form what we call a community advisory committee back in 1993 to make sure that we addressed all the public concerns and got all the public concerns to be put into the draft environment impact statement. But also Hawaiian Electric, based on our studies and forecast, all the analysis, the need for the light will also be in this EIS.

[00:04:05] Randall Roth: Okay, so the the decision to build it has not been made, but if there is a decision to build it, then you've got the second decision. Does it go overhead or does it go underground?

[00:04:15] Kerstan J. Wong: That's correct. No decision has been made on the project and whether we'll go overhead or underground.

[00:04:20] Randall Roth: And on the overhead underground thing, I read in the paper I think two days ago, that a new study that's out in the journal of New England Journal of Medicine or something like that, is suggesting that there isn't a health issue. Is that right?

[00:04:34] Kerstan J. Wong: Uh that's correct, but at Hawaiian Electric right now, I mean we feel that this issue is not over yet and we're going to continue to fund research to find out the conclusion and a definite answer and this issue will be addressed in full in the draft environmental impact statement as it applies to this particular project.

[00:04:50] Randall Roth: Kirsten, one more question, I get the impression that there's almost certainly going to be a line, now maybe I've just made that up but that's the impression I've formed. So the real issue, I think, right now, is where it goes and whether it's overhead or underground. Am I reasonably close to being right here?

[00:05:08] Kerstan J. Wong: That's pretty reasonable, but we also will look at the impacts if we do not build this line. What is the impacts if we don't build this line, but in general you're you're correct in your assessment.

[00:05:17] Randall Roth: Okay, Henry Curtis is the executive director of Life of the Land. It's a community action group that strives to protect Hawaii's environment through research, education, advocacy and litigation. Henry, I know from your article in this morning's advertiser, and that's on page B3 in the focus section, that you're critical of the electric company's proposal, both in general and specifically. Tell us a little bit about why you're critical.

[00:05:40] Henry Curtis: Yeah, we like to talk about reliability and demand. First, Aloha. How you doing?

[00:05:45] Randall Roth: I'm fine. How are you?

[00:05:46] Henry Curtis: Good. Um, Heco seems certain that customers want to pay for an insurance policy to for redundancy purposes, but at the same time Heco seems reluctant to feel that people will pay to have it put underground.

[00:06:04] Randall Roth: Okay, and and Heco by the way, H-E-C-O, that's the the electric company.

[00:06:08] Henry Curtis: Right, that's correct.

[00:06:08] Randall Roth: I always call them Heco, but tomato tomato, whatever.

[00:06:11] Henry Curtis: I've heard them say it both ways. I don't know.

[00:06:14] Randall Roth: I've heard them called other things too but let's uh let's call them Heco for now. Go ahead.

[00:06:18] Henry Curtis: Um, I asked Heco officials last fall if there is a 90% drop in the demand for electricity on the island, will you still need to build this line? And they said yes, this line is exempt from demand issues. So, and the other thing is that except where mandated by law, they have put only 100 ft of their system, the transmission system underground. So to say that they have not decided whether it's above ground or underground when 99.9% of the system is above ground, is perhaps misleading.

[00:06:59] Randall Roth: So I get the impression listening to you that you feel as though decisions have been made and they're going to be more or less crammed down our throats, um but there will at least be a facade of community involvement.

[00:07:12] Henry Curtis: There will be a an attempt at that that Cat can get into more. Um, I'd also like to point out that the New England Journal of Medicine article that came out recently had a fascinating 35-word conclusion that even though it's only 35 words, I could not begin to understand.

[00:07:34] Randall Roth: So, so you think the the health issue is still out there and Kirsten said they're continuing to look into it. Um nobody in this room feels that the health issue has finally been decided.

[00:07:45] Henry Curtis: Right, that's correct. Um, the study was concerned with only um acute lymphoblastic leukemia and high measured time-weighted average magnetic field levels which if it was covering all leukemia and all EMF fields I think it would be a lot simpler to say.

[00:08:07] Randall Roth: So the jury's still out there there is still some possible uh link between health problems on the one hand and electromagnetic fields which are created by the overhead lines on the other.

[00:08:19] Henry Curtis: That's correct and it should be pointed out that neither Life of the Land nor Heco has any EMF policy analysts on board and therefore we defer to others on that issue.

[00:08:31] Randall Roth: Okay. Cat Brady and what a nice name Cat, is that from Catherine?

[00:08:35] Kat Brady: Kathleen.

[00:08:36] Randall Roth: Kathleen. Uh, you are the assistant executive director for Life of the Land. Uh a moment ago Henry mentioned that you've been very much involved in the specifics of all of this. Tell us about that.

[00:08:45] Kat Brady: Well, I'm more involved with the community organizing aspect of this and one thing that's really amazing about this issue compared to other issues that Life of the Land has been heavily involved in is that there's overwhelming opposition that crosses all socio-economic lines. It's amazing and it's not just Palolo and and Manoa. I mean we've spoken to people on other islands, in um other places, the North Shore, Kailua, there is concern about this line. There's general concern about where Heco is going, blighting the landscape. I think that's more than anything, communities feel that people live here because it's beautiful, people come here because it's beautiful.

[00:09:26] Kat Brady: Right now, um tourism is the economic engine of the economy and we think to just blight the landscape and scar the landscape is a really bad plan.

[00:09:35] Randall Roth: So right now, you're focused on whether they go underground or overground. I get the impression at least from Henry's article that that he just assumed there not be this southern corridor and and Henry if I'm wrong, tell me.

[00:09:48] Henry Curtis: Um, the Southern corridor is a slight misnomer because it's not a link but a figure eight. And there the two links, the northern and the southern are joined in the middle. So you can't really speak of a totally southern or a totally northern route.

[00:10:04] Randall Roth: But you would just assume these proposed lines not go in, but if they do go in, you'd rather they be underground.

[00:10:10] Henry Curtis: Correct.

[00:10:11] Randall Roth: And Cat, what I think I'm hearing you say is that the community may or may not want the additional lines, may or may not want the redundancy, but they don't want them overhead.

[00:10:21] Kat Brady: Yes, um the community hasn't really been convinced of the need of this particular line. But Life of the Land's position about high voltage lines is that they should be underground along transportation corridors like H1.

[00:10:34] Randall Roth: Now when you're hearing that from the community, do they have some sense for what the cost would be? I mean obviously if the underground cost were a thousand times the overhead cost, why it seems to me that that they'd need to go overhead. On the other hand, if they cost the same, it seems a no-brainer to me they should go underground. Are you factoring into your conversation with people in the community what the cost differential would be?

[00:10:56] Kat Brady: Yes, and also um technology has really um advanced. Henry will speak more about um trenchless technology, which has really changed the way that underground lines go in. Well, I I defer to Henry on the...

[00:11:11] Randall Roth: Okay, I tell you what, let me get a couple reactions from our Hawaiian Electric people to what I've heard from from you and from Henry, and then I'm going to invite some calls and we're going to be off and running. Kirsten, you've been listening to a number of comments made by Henry and Cat, critical of this particular project. Any reaction?

[00:11:28] Kerstan J. Wong: Well, yeah, I mean these concerns they've been brought up to us. I mean we've we knew about and we are trying to address them as best as we can. Um, again with the aesthetics issue, I mean, we'd be the first to admit that yes, overhead lines is not the prettiest things to install, but again, there's this cost issue that we need to look at. For example, in this project um the overhead alternative may be in the range from $20 to $25 million, whereas the underground alternative could be in the range from $50 to $60 million. This is just construction installation cost.

[00:12:00] Kerstan J. Wong: Now, for the average our residential consumers they may not be such a big impact on their residential bills but when you look at the government, business, are their electric bills that are going to go up and you know, really every facet of our life is going to be impacted by this uh electric increase and you know that just adds to our cost of living and it's just this project, you know, they're going to have other projects like and telephone lines and cable TV lines and all that adds up to the cost of living. So that needs to be balanced.

[00:12:26] Randall Roth: Okay, Chuck Friedman from the Electric Company.

[00:12:28] Chuck Freedman: The idea of reasonable cost to customer is is is is is a critical issue. Other factors are going to be looked at. The costs that Kirsten was just talking about get passed along to a customer in their bill but when a business has to pay for it, that business is also going to pass that along to you, the customer. So cost to customer is an issue, it's not the only issue. The draft EIS, which is coming out this fall, will not only describe the different alignment possibilities, but go into detail about the factors. All the various factors from aesthetics to property values to health issues.

[00:13:00] Chuck Freedman: And um people will have an opportunity with all those facts in front of them to respond to Heco before we make any uh recommendation, the company itself will not make a recommendation till after the draft EIS is out and after we've heard from the public.

[00:13:21] Randall Roth: And the EIS, that's the Environmental Impact Statement. I'm sorry, I apologize for the acronym.

[00:13:27] Chuck Freedman: Um and so there there's, I mean the dialogue is important. Uh we live here too. We we know there that we somehow have to find the best way to balance the issues and and that's what this is really all about.

[00:13:37] Randall Roth: Okay, Henry Curtis.

[00:13:38] Henry Curtis: Yeah, I think the cost question is really, really important to understand and as Kirsten pointed out, the upfront cost to initially put in the line, the underground is more expensive. But as a taxpayer, I would be concerned with the total cost of the line. And when you begin to look at the total cost and scientific journals, even the Electric Power Research Institute Journal, the IEEE Electrical World and others have begun to look at what the total cost is and it's no longer apparent that in an urban area that there is this huge differential.

[00:14:19] Randall Roth: Kirsten Wong, do you agree basically with that?

[00:14:22] Kerstan J. Wong: Well yeah, I mean in fact in this project uh we're going to look at I think what Henry is referring to is our life cycle cost for both an overhead and underground system and when we say life cycle cost we're talking about looking at the system the entire life, not only the installation cost but the maintenance and repair of each type of system. And that's going to be looked at in detail in the EIS.

[00:14:43] Randall Roth: Was it safe to say that if the lifetime cost of one is roughly the same as the cost of the other, definitely they'd go underground?

[00:14:52] Kerstan J. Wong: Uh yeah, we would have to look at that because then then there's a there's a law that's now that's in place uh house bill 2239 that requires the Public Utilities Commission to take into account life cycle costs. So that would be something that yes, we would definitely have to look at.

[00:15:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, for those of you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about some power lines that have been proposed. It would constitute what some are calling a a new southern corridor and provide a a ring of reliability. On the other hand, there are some people saying it really isn't needed, and even if we do need something it should go underground rather than overground. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, it's 1800-955-8821.

[00:15:40] Randall Roth: With me in the studio is Chuck Friedman, who's a vice president at Hawaiian Electric Company. Some people call that Heco. He has responsibility for a wide range of areas, including communications. Chuck came to Hawaii 25 years ago from Palau where he was a Peace Corps volunteer. Also from Heco is Kirsten Wong. He's a project manager there and as such is responsible for the design and construction of transmission and distribution projects, including this proposed southern corridor that we're talking about today. He started his career at Heco 10 years ago as an engineering intern out of the University of Hawaii's College of Engineering.

[00:16:16] Randall Roth: We have Henry Curtis, who is the executive director of Life of the Land, a community action group that strives to protect Hawaii's environment through research, education, advocacy and litigation. He has a degree in theoretical economics and is the founder of the Power Coalition. Also Cat Brady, she's with Life of the Land as its assistant executive director. She's a member of the Power Coalition, president of the Pacific Women's Network and the Environmental Legislative Network uh she's a member of that organization. Again, if you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821.

[00:16:53] Randall Roth: Well, I'm going to go to a caller in just a second, but I think Cat, you had something you want to say a minute ago in response to uh what we were hearing from Kirsten.

[00:17:01] Kat Brady: Well, I think the point we have to stress is is this line needed and what is Hawaii going to do about electric transmission delivering um power to people for the next 25 years or so? We need to have a a long-range plan like Anaheim, California, perhaps to bury all the lines within the next 50 years.

[00:17:20] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's take some calls. First, Michael from Palolo. Good morning, Michael.

[00:17:24] Caller: Good morning.

[00:17:25] Randall Roth: You live in a neighborhood that's very much involved uh in this controversy.

[00:17:30] Caller: Yeah, my name is Michael Oki. I oppose the plant Kamoku Pukele 138 KV transmission line being laid underground down Palolo Avenue. I am convinced that the emission of dangerous magnetic radiation would create a serious health hazard for people in the area. Anyone living, going to school or doing business in the valley would be harmed. Thousands of children who play in Palolo Park would risk getting permanently impaired. Even before the power line were installed, construction or excavation would unfairly delay motorists and pedestrians along the route. These inconveniences to the neighborhood would continue for several years. Palolo land owners would require compensation for the depreciation in their property values.

[00:18:15] Caller: They should not have to absorb the loss themselves. Routing the power line underground down Palolo Avenue would certainly hurt the community. Eventually, everyone on Oahu could suffer from this decision. Thank you.

[00:18:28] Randall Roth: Uh Michael, stay on the line. Cat, I'm a little bit surprised um I would expect somebody in the neighborhood whether it's Palolo Valley or Manoa or whatever neighborhood that could be affected by this to be arguing that it should go underground as opposed to overhead. I had thought that the health problem for example was a problem only if it was overhead. And what I'm hearing Michael say is number one, he doesn't want it to go underground through his neighborhood, partly because of a health concern, but also because it would be very disruptive, the construction. and that would go on for a long period of time would be very disruptive. Uh, are you hearing these voices?

[00:19:06] Kerstan J. Wong: Yes, and I also think the huge issue is um should the uh Pukele substation be upgraded. When you go back to the back of the Carlos Long area of Palolo, the lines hum. I mean you can hear the lines humming and somebody went in a couple of years ago with a gauss meter and those people back there are living in what we would consider a dangerous and undesirable area.

[00:19:29] Randall Roth: Well, let me make sure I've got this. You say that that Michael's concerns are legitimate and if that's the case, then we go back to the first question is we shouldn't have any new lines over or underground?

[00:19:41] Kerstan J. Wong: No, I'm saying right now, Palolo has a consent decree, so the line cannot go overhead through Palolo. It can only go underground. The people in Palolo, we are saying we don't want this line at all. Um, the people in Palolo are at risk and we don't want that to happen. We think that that substation should not be upgraded.

[00:20:02] Randall Roth: Okay, I'm I'm confused though, if we do have to have a line, if that decision gets made, then you're saying, put it underground, but put it underground someplace other than Palolo?

[00:20:11] Kerstan J. Wong: We think it should go underground from Kahi Point along the transportation corridor of H1 and directly to the convention center and the places that they want to fire up.

[00:20:21] Randall Roth: Okay. Kirsten or Chuck, uh any reaction from the electric company to either what Michael was saying or Kat's reaction to it?

[00:20:28] Chuck Freedman: Well, it is it is problematic that even though some folks uh oppose the lines going overhead then then there are folks who are opposing it going underground. So, obviously there's no simple solution here. I don't think the engineering solution Kat just gave us would work because ultimately the key here for reliability purposes is connecting the northern and southern corridors at a final point, and that really is the critical element that isn't resolved uh by by uh the engineering proposal I just heard. Um, and and and I think the fact that Michael called in and and is saying that there's opposition from an underground standpoint, uh, we're hearing that. We are hearing that. We know that's a problem.

[00:21:07] Henry Curtis: Yes, um, the whole reason for connecting this north and south route is what's driving this. And as he co-host said, if there is absolutely no demand for it, they still want to connect these two points just so this loop is complete. And we're saying if there's no demand for it, if all the demand is out by Alamowana, Kakaako, the convention center, why not just either strengthen the connection between Kahi and those points or what we should really be doing, because we're so close to the equator, it's so sunny out, people should be putting solar panels on their roofs. The convention center had solar panels on its roof and storage capacity in its basement, it wouldn't need all of these intrusive lines. It would be a lot cheaper and safer in the long run. In fact, even the cellular phone companies are saying, if the hurricane strikes and you reach for your phone, it would be nice to know that it works. If the relay stations are out because the electricity going to them have been blown out, we're all going to be stuck.

[00:22:13] Randall Roth: Okay. Michael from Palolo, are you still there?

[00:22:15] Caller: Yes.

[00:22:15] Randall Roth: Uh, do you feel like these comments have responded to your concerns?

[00:22:19] Caller: Well, I mean, you know, it seems, it almost seems like um the establishment is going to route it underground and you know, the small there were people in Palolo, the old uh Japanese grandparents, you know, that have lived there for so long, nobody's listening to them. And you know, there's just a small number of people over there that are going to be um you know, really hurt by this. And you know, it seems like the whole consensus of opinion is to lay it underground on Palolo Avenue, and I don't think people have considered you know, the impact that it's going to have.

[00:22:54] Randall Roth: Okay. Michael, thank you for your call. We appreciate it. Let's go to Lynn from the Big Island on a cellular phone. Good morning, Lynn.

[00:23:00] Caller: Good morning. Well I, I've lived in Manoa several times in my life including when I was very small, and I'm real familiar with Waahila Ridge and and the path that they're intending to use. I think that is just so stupid. One thing they haven't taken in consideration is the property value cost. Okay, maybe there's a $30 million difference between going underground and going above ground. But look at the $300 million difference that it's going to make to property values in Manoa.

[00:23:28] Randall Roth: Lynn, let me, let me get a reaction to that point, and then I'm going to come back to you.

[00:23:32] Caller: I have a second point on the solar because I live in a solar house.

[00:23:35] Randall Roth: I'm going to come I'm going to come back to you. Don't worry about it. So that our listeners know uh this Waahila Ridge that Lynn is referring to, runs between Manoa Valley and St. Louis Heights and it's right there where, especially from Waikiki, it's it's right in view. We're talking about uh poles that are much bigger than the poles that are up there right now. And a lot of people feel that it would depress property values in addition to being what what some people would describe as an eyesore. Uh, Kirsten Wong, what's your reaction to to Lynn's first point, which is primarily that people aren't taking into account the depression of property values?

[00:24:10] Kerstan J. Wong: Yeah, and we we realize that that is a concern and we are looking at that and we're having a detailed study done. Um, and for this project, and every project is going to be different. For example, we made an assessment of a past project on property values and it was concluded that, you know, there's other factors besides the proximity to transmission lines that dictate the cost of value of properties. But again, that was a separate project and we're going to do a detailed analysis specifically for this project to address that issue.

[00:24:37] Randall Roth: But I guess the problem is, you are looking at benefits being enjoyed island wide and yet the detriments of a new line is pretty much focused on that property that's that's close to the line. Is is that part of the problem here?

[00:24:52] Kerstan J. Wong: Right, and yeah, and we're going to look at all the properties that's right next to this project, and all the routes, not only the overhead, but also the underground routes, like the one uh Michael from Palolo talked about.

[00:25:01] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Lynn, I think you had another point.

[00:25:04] Caller: Well, this just, I will, but also on that, you know, it isn't just being next to the line. If you are 2 miles away and it's right in your view and it's making your view ugly instead of pretty, that is a property value depreciation. It's it's major. Are you going to give 30,000 or 300,000 to every property owner who can see this line?

[00:25:22] Randall Roth: Right. Not not to mention what some people, I know Henry in his article this morning concluded by suggesting that it could really hurt tourist our tourist industry as well. But go ahead to your your second point.

[00:25:31] Caller: So, the other point is for the future and I and I ran this by a local um employee of Helco, you know, on on this island who looks into lines and I said, they're going to run a line up, you know, that ridge between Manoa and Palolo and he said, that's insane. Okay, but he works for the other branch of the company. Anyway, on on this, for the future, don't you think we really need to have personal solar collection? I, for the first time in my life, live in an outfitted off power house. It only cost $8,900 more. It was absolutely necessary because I'm 2 miles from power lines. And you know what, I can wash clothes, I can watch TV 6 hours a day. I you know, I've got a fully powered house, and it's Well, I know this is a is a problem. This is in total agreement with what Henry was saying and according to Kirsten's piece in this morning's paper, the electric company is actually providing subsidies in an attempt to get people to use more solar. Um, quick comment from the electric company, then Kate Brady, Kat Brady has something to say, then we're going to move on.

[00:26:32] Speaker 2: Solar energy as a as a demand side uh resource is important. Hawaii ranks first in the country in in use of solar water heaters, and we have a pro Hawaiian Electric Company has a program in place now that provides incentives to people to put solar water heaters on their house and I would recommend people to look into it and take advantage of it.

[00:26:52] Kat Brady: Well, it's interesting because the PUC has um recently opened up a docket to deregulate the electric industry.

[00:26:59] Randall Roth: And the PUC, Public That's Public Utilities Commission. And and they pretty much decide what organizations like Hiko can and can't do, must do, can't do, that sort of thing.

[00:27:08] Kat Brady: Right. Right. And and in times past, Hiko would go before the PUC when they wanted a rate hike or build a project. And generally, there was no community participation at all, very difficult to get information from the PUC um at that point. Well, things have definitely changed. The PUC is now encouraging this docket to look at deregulation of the industry. So, I think that um with the thought of competition coming in, Hiko needs to really respond to the community. And even if you think their fears might be groundless, it's really important that the community feel that you are there looking out for their best interest, and you will have competition, so that would be a best management practice.

[00:27:47] Randall Roth: And somebody like Michael from Palolo, who feels that that there are people there that aren't really being heard, you would encourage him to call organizations like yours that that your interest isn't in getting a specific result accomplished, your interest is in having the community really speak up and be heard.

[00:28:02] Kat Brady: Yes, definitely. And and for Palolo, I know that that feeling is very strong. Um, I don't think their issue is more, it should be overground or underground. I think they feel that they don't want that in their neighborhood since the only way they could have it is underground. We support that. We don't think the line is necessary and we support the people in Palolo.

[00:28:21] Randall Roth: Support their their desire to have no lines going through Palolo. Okay. Let's go to David in East Honolulu. Good morning, David.

[00:28:29] Caller: David, are you there? Yeah, I'm right here.

[00:28:31] Randall Roth: All right, you're on the air.

[00:28:32] Caller: Okay. I guess I have a observation and then uh maybe a question. Uh the observation is that uh we should remember that Hiko makes money by selling electricity and that they'd be very sensitive to the price of that electricity because if the price were to go up because they're paying more for the undergrounding, they probably sell less electricity. So it does seem that they're not totally objective in this in this matter. I guess the question is that we can understand reliability and um I'm wondering that number one, are there other ways to get the reliability without closing that final gap. And then the second thing is, I question how reliable an overhead line would be during a hurricane condition or some other kind of catastrophe like that compared to underground.

[00:29:14] Randall Roth: Two really good questions. Uh Kirsten, can you give us a quick response to each and then I want to hear from from Henry Curtis as well. and they're deplorable in physical condition and a lot of the teachers uh efforts are deplorable as well. The other thing, the question that I have for whoever can answer it is why is only one university out of four allowed to produce teachers. Why doesn't the DOA sanction uh BYUH or Hawaii Pacific University or Chaminade? Uh I think our teacher pool would be a lot more sophisticated, have a broader perspective and probably gain a great deal. And if anyone can answer that, I'd sure appreciate it. Okay. Next point?

[00:31:29] Randall Roth: That's it. Okay. Okay Bill, thank you. We really appreciate that. Um, let's take a break from from our calls and and get some reactions or or if there are some additional points that need to be made because we're getting down to the last 15 minutes or so. First uh John Daly, just uh real briefly, any reaction to what you've been listening to or additional thoughts that need to be shared?

[00:32:06] Caller: Well, I got lots of them. Uh, first, I know, um, one of the first callers, people have to remember the schools are not designed to solve society's social problems. We cannot make up for the fact that more kids are living in single parent households, as Rod noted earlier, we have the highest proportion of women in the workforce, uh, particularly married couples. Uh, the schools cannot take on that responsibility unless people are willing to put a massive infusion of resources uh into the schools and I don't see that happening. In terms of dealing with poor teachers, I agree with the comments. Uh, the current path system is a joke. I think we need to look at some other way of evaluating teachers that's more meaningful, uh, that's easier, more specific and has some reliability and validity. I'm not so sure that system does. The lack of discipline in schools is well noted. I think what the general public fails to recognize, I think Joan could speak to this. Uh, we're stuck with some students. We're stuck with some students in schools who shouldn't be there. Um, they're put back there by the courts sometimes. Uh, we simply can't get rid of kids that have no business being in school. Uh, and I think we need to start looking at that issue. Is school an entitlement or is it simply, it's an opportunity we give you, but when you abuse that opportunity, what, you know, what commitment do we have to you as a student? I think it's crazy. Okay. Uh, I also think uh I do want to comment on the last uh caller. Uh all institutions in the state of Hawaii have had teacher education programs except Hawaii Pacific University. Okay. Chaminade produces teachers, UHHilo produces teachers, um, and uh BYU also produces teachers. Okay.

[00:33:29] Randall Roth: John, thanks. I'll come back to you before the end of the hour. Uh Joan Houston, some reactions.

[00:33:33] Caller: Well, whatever wide ranging area of uh of of comments, let's let's talk about a couple here. Uh poor teachers in the system and the teacher evaluation process. Um we wholeheartedly agree there ought to be a valid workable teacher evaluation process. And right now uh HSTA is involved with the Department of Education to take a look at designing a brand new teacher evaluation process. There's a task force on accountability and assessment. Um we think the problem with path is not with the instrument itself, but it's going to be a reoccurring problem uh if something's not done. The span of supervision for most school administrators is a span that most businessmen would not allow to happen. The principal at Farrington High School, for example, has three vice principals and 142 teachers to evaluate, and that doesn't include custodians, cafeteria workers and other people. It's not going to be the instrument that's going to do it. It's going to be whether or not we can work with the span of supervision and get really valid evaluation processes in place. We support teacher evaluation. The second thing we support is a rigorous probationary period for teachers. When teachers come into the system, they must serve 2 years of probation and we think that ought to be a good solid testing period. And at that point, if teachers are going to make it, they ought to get their tenure. If they're teachers who perhaps shouldn't be teaching, they shouldn't be tenured.