Leadership in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-07-02
Guests: David Heenan (Trustee, Campbell Estate); Dan Boylan (Professor of History, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:08:57

[00:00:09] Randall Roth: Good morning. This is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning from 8:00 to 9:00 on KHPR, that's 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM. And then rebroadcast each Sunday evening from 8:00 to 9:00 on KIFO 1380 AM. This radio show is entirely the product of volunteers with a goal of generating lively and informed dialogue about challenges confronting the people of Hawaii. We believe such public conversations are absolutely essential if we as a community hope to meet our challenges. Our topic today is leadership. I've got a number of questions that I'm going to ask, things like, what in the world is this thing that we call leadership? How do we recognize it? How do we support it? Can we teach it?
[00:00:58] Randall Roth: With me in the studio are a couple fellows who have thought a lot about leadership and done some writing on it. And then we also have some people that we've called and they're listening by phone right now and we're going to get their thoughts on it as well. Eventually, we'll open up the lines and encourage listeners to give us a call, ask their questions, or briefly share their thoughts on leadership. In the studio are Dan Boylan and David Heenan. Dan is a UH Professor of History at the West Oahu campus, a columnist for MidWeek Magazine, moderator for dialogue, and has done a lot of writing in other places as well. David Heenan is a Campbell Estate trustee currently, previously he's been chairman, CEO of Theo Davies and Company, Vice President of Academic Affairs at UH, Dean of the UH Business School, and he too is a prolific writer.
[00:01:51] Randall Roth: Included in his production are a couple of books, one entitled The Reunited States of America and The New Corporate Frontier, the big move to small town USA. If you've seen your morning newspaper, in the focus section page B3, there is a short article by Dave Heenan, not on leadership, but on followership. Dan Boylan, did you get a chance to look at that?
[00:02:18] Dan Boylan: Yeah, I think Heenan has a very good point. I'm not as certain that you can teach followership. However, if you look at political leadership, anyway, what's required time and time again is that the political leaders that we look back on and call leaders had a base in the community. If you look at the state of Hawaii, certainly, Jack Burns, who is the acknowledged demigod of Hawaii Democratic politics, had the support of all of the volunteers, all of the AJ volunteers coming back from World War II. He had the support of the ILWU. It was united. Today, I think we live in a time in an era in politics anyway, not only in the state of Hawaii, but nationally, where those experiences and those organizations which provide and organize the followership that Dave has written about are not there anymore.
[00:03:11] Dan Boylan: And and leaders are much more free-floating entities.
[00:03:15] Randall Roth: Okay, so what does that mean? Do where do you stand on followership?
[00:03:21] Dan Boylan: Well, again, the unions aren't what they used to be, [unintelligible — audio glitch] I suppose one of the if you look for an organization, you look to professional associations and lobbying groups and packs and so forth. They tend to be single-issue people and therefore what you have to do is sort of accumulate your hot buttons if you're a leader to get somebody to support you.
[00:03:43] Randall Roth: Okay, David Heenan, you wrote the piece on on followership, can you briefly tell me what your your main theme was or or the main point that you wanted to get across.
[00:03:54] David Heenan: Well, you know, we're all followers, Randy. Actually, we all have multiple roles. We're parents, sons, with children, daughters, we're teachers, students, and in many respects, we're leaders and followers. And I think what's important, however, is that we tend to overestimate the value of of leadership, and really, to me, the the key driving force, and whether leadership is there or not, is the quality and quantity of followers. I mean, Jefferson was the guy who once said that the American Revolution was far more superior and successful than the French Revolution, primarily because of the John and Jane Does of the world. He felt that for a variety of reasons, including the dispiriting nature of the Catholic Church, that the followership in in France really didn't sustain the principles of that revolution.
[00:04:41] David Heenan: If you look in Germany, I think the tragedy of of World War II was not a guy named Adolf Hitler, the leader, it was the acquiescence of the followership of the German people. So I think it's important to keep the the feet to the fire of uh the folks that are in the street because they, in many respects, determine the quality of our public institutions, schools, and the like. And uh we don't want to let let them off the hook and that was really the point of the piece today.
[00:05:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I'm going to come back to followership later on in the show, but what about leadership? Is that uh different, and if so, what are a few thoughts about leadership?
[00:05:14] David Heenan: Well, I think leaders are different from visionaries, they're different from heroes. Uh, leadership is composed of leaders, obviously, but also followers and and a vision. I think it's important that uh any good leader is has the ability to craft a a vision statement, a series of objectives that are shared in large part by a broad constituency. And good leaders, whether they're in the private sector or public sector, labor or management, have that have that tradition. Uh, so in terms of really characteristics of good leaders, right up up uh at the top is this ability to present some sense of purpose, a vision, a a typically a few simple objectives for uh to really incite a rallying cry amongst a group of subordinates.
[00:06:00] David Heenan: Now, interestingly, you can get away with a no vision vision statement. Lou Gerstner, when he took over IBM recently, you recall, the company was in a bit of a turnaround, a bit of shambles, and he was asked by the media specifically what was his vision? He said, I don't have one. We have more important things at stake like the survival of this organization. I think to some extent, Dan, you're seeing Ben Cayetano exert the same sort of message.
[00:06:26] Dan Boylan: Let's not get caught up on concept, on strategy when the day-to-day survival of the institution is at stake.
[00:06:34] Randall Roth: In preparing for this show, I was talking to one fellow who said that he thought the secret of leadership was convincing everyone around you that you really needed a lot of help.
[00:06:44] David Heenan: Absolutely. I mean, leaders need followers far more than followers need leaders.
[00:06:48] Dan Boylan: But I think Dave has a good point about Governor Cayetano at the moment that the governor basically is saying that we are in such a deep fiscal crisis that I don't have time for a vision. And we've got to deal with that crisis and and when you and if he does that, and if he if he brings the makes the government leaner and meaner and more efficient and all those things which which it most definitely needs, puts it on a solid financial basis, people are going to say that he governed well and he will be re-elected. He probably will not, however, make the history books. I don't think that the, you know, sort of the green eyeshade view of leadership in in politics, anyway, ever makes the ever makes the uh um makes the history books. Just doesn't.
[00:07:28] David Heenan: Well, I think after you've done the tough stuff, you have to present the upside. You have to, I mean, it's like a company that's done a lot of downsizing. You have to present to people that there is a future out there and it means more than simply lobbying heads.
[00:08:06] Randall Roth: In particular, looked at a number of senators, who in fact, had rejected their followership, their constituents and taken very, very difficult courses.
[00:08:14] David Heenan: Harry Truman's combatants of of Douglas MacArthur was a classic case of somebody taking a very, very unpopular position and standing up for the institution of the presidency.
[00:08:21] Randall Roth: Well, in fact, I think I recall in MidWeek Magazine quite recently, a fellow by the name of Boylan wrote about that, Dan.
[00:08:28] Dan Boylan: Yeah, and and someone wrote me who was very angry at my taking a shot at Clinton and saying, don't you remember that Harry Truman was a very unpopular president? And indeed he was. It fell very low in the polls as low as you could possibly get. But I think again, he's a president who stands up in history, and he stands up because he was willing to fight the Cold War and he was willing to make the hard decisions and he was willing to take make the legislature, to persuade the legislature to work with him. If Arthur Vandenberg had not supported Harry Truman, a Republican senator from Michigan and chairman of the of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, if he had not supported uh Truman in all of his his uh Cold War endeavors, um from the Marshall Plan on down, uh I doubt very much whether we would put Truman as high on the board as we do.
[00:09:12] Dan Boylan: Truman showed his ability to work and to present the crisis and and to to win.
[00:09:18] Randall Roth: Okay. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Our topic today is leadership. With me in the studio are Dan Boylan, a UH Professor of History, and David Heenan, a Campbell Estate trustee. We've got some folks who have been listening to all of this on the phone, and I'm going to get some thoughts from them on leadership and then we'll come back and talk some more to our guests in the studio. First of all, let's go to retired General Alan Ono. Um, retired General Ono was chief of personnel at the Pentagon before he retired recently. He was the first Asian-American promoted to three star general and he served in Vietnam, Korea, Europe, all over the US, etc.
[00:09:58] Randall Roth: Um, General Ono, can you hear me?
[00:10:00] Caller: I can hear you and good morning to you.
[00:10:02] Randall Roth: Good morning. Wondering if you could um in just a brief period of time share your thoughts on leadership.
[00:10:09] Caller: I agree what's been said in regard to followers and the vision and doing things that's right. You know, that those are very insightful things. I think also perseverance toward that vision and being proactive and to come up with plans that actually lead towards the accomplishment of that is very important. I don't know if I agree though with the fact that someone can go in with no vision at all. That's uh even the governor and others who may have uh gone into assignments and positions with that seem chaotic had some kind of end in in mind. And that I think is the important part of a leader to be the person then who strikes that stake far forward whether it be five years forward or maybe 10 years forward. Some kind of goal in mind that hits toward it.
[00:11:06] Randall Roth: And sticks to it? Is that what you're saying?
[00:11:08] Caller: Sticks to work to it and takes action and develops plans and and actually does things to act to hit toward that goal.
[00:11:22] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, thank you very much. We really appreciate uh your sharing your thoughts with us this morning. We have on on another line, uh Aquan Mcrath. Uh Aquan is a new member of the Board of Regents at the University of Hawaii. Her roots, I guess are in the labor movement and uh there was a very big write up on Aquan a few months ago in the newspaper that among other things uh called her our our social conscience. Aquan, can you hear me this morning?
[00:11:48] Caller: Yes, I can.
[00:11:50] Randall Roth: Um, welcome to the Price of Paradise Radio Show and uh any thoughts to share with us on leadership?
[00:11:56] Caller: Yeah, I I think that that a a good leader must be a very principled person, must be able to take a look at what's happening in the community or within a very small area and divine what it is that people need uh and to stick then to his particular or her particular vision of what it is that needs to be done. As far as the national situation, international situation goes, we find innumerable examples of this. The first the first one that comes to mind of course, is the American Revolution, which was alluded to by David Heenan. The second one is that set of policies and legislation which were devised during the Great Depression, when you had all the signs of leadership plus the followership that Heenan talks about.
[00:12:47] Caller: And here, at a more local level, in the 1930s when Jack Hall came to the islands and when the people felt as a result of World War II that they were being frozen to their jobs and to their wage rates, they perceived their need to form a union. And it was out of that union that many of the progress, much of the progress of the state of Hawaii has been made. On a more international basis, I guess one can point to the to Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam when they were first beset by the French and by the allies and then fought off the United States in that long and bloody and rather tragic war.
[00:13:30] Caller: Uh, so that it seems to me that leadership arises out of a specific set of circumstances that obtain at a particular moment and whether or not the people, the so-called followership, feels that indeed these uh represent their needs.
[00:13:48] Randall Roth: Okay. Aquan, thank you very much. Really appreciate uh your sharing all of that with us. We've got some more folks on on the line, before we go to them, I thought I would take a little break and see if uh David Heenan or Dan Boylan have any thoughts on what they've been listening to.
[00:14:02] Dan Boylan: I just want to respond to something AQ said about uh about crisis, uh circumstances. I think that I think an awful lot of leaders, political leaders anyway, have not been recognized as such because they didn't have a crisis that made them such. We're a country for example that has very little interest in the executive, very anti-executive, our whole constitutional makeup is anti-executive. And legislative leadership that we're seeing now with with Speaker Gingrich and so forth dominating the scene is generally what happens in peaceful times. We had strong we were we had a position where strong executives could operate in the postwar period because of because of the Cold War. But if you look down at those presidents that we usually say are the great ones, we're always looking at presidents in crisis, FDR. Well, he had the depression which created a following, and the war which created a following.
[00:14:52] Dan Boylan: There was there was very little question in anybody's mind after after the initial attack after the attack on Pearl Harbor, that we were going to fight that war. You know, there were a few people want to jail over it but not not very many. Abraham Lincoln, who if he had if I'm certain, if he had survived through the postwar post Civil War period, would not have the luster that he did because uh Congress would have eaten him up in much the same way that they did President Johnson. A crisis is necessary in politics to unite a country, I think and and [unintelligible — audio glitch] results in a leader.
[00:15:25] David Heenan: Well, I think there were two excellent inputs and and extremely valuable. I just to fold into it a bit in terms of additional characteristics of leadership that that were touched on is this notion of being straight. I think integrity, credibility, believability is probably the most often recognized trait that goes with good leadership uh and when they lose it, uh they're sunk. And and I think, you know, the as we know, the president has had a personal integrity problem at almost from day one. But I think to the extent a leader lies to his constituents ever, a little hot air in the balloon is all right, but but whether it's sheer outright lying, they are dead than a doornail.
[00:16:08] Randall Roth: So it when when Aquan says that the leader has to be principled, is that what you're talking about now?
[00:16:13] David Heenan: That's that's part of it. I think the other element of principle and I think she hit it right on the head is that a good leader will elevate the standard, they'll raise the bar, whether that's a moral standard, our like Gandhi or Martin Luther King or whether it's simply a football coach saying we won six games last year, we're going to win eight games this year. It really is incumbent on leadership to lift the entire tide. And good leaders have that ability to rally folks up to uh to uh demand more out of them.
[00:16:41] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, someone else uh that we've had on the line since the beginning of the program is Momi Casimero. Momi has been a member of the Board of Regents at the University of Hawaii for a few years now and uh has served on on so many community posts that I I couldn't begin to list them all. Uh Momi, can you hear me?
[00:16:58] Caller: I surely can Randy. Good morning.
[00:17:00] Randall Roth: Good morning and welcome to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Momi, you've been listening to this, any thoughts to share on leadership?
[00:17:07] Caller: I think I find myself really attracted to the word passion. Because people who believe very strongly in something are able to encourage others to follow because they believe that much. And I think that's why we tend to see people who have been leaders through causes leave such a a lengthy impression on our minds because their their passion drives them in in such a a strong direction. And um and that's why we remember them along with this belief in something that um speaks in everything they do.
[00:17:47] Randall Roth: So so passion isn't something they can fake or something a person can teach them, right?
[00:17:52] Caller: That's right. And sometimes people follow just because they sense the passion in the individual.
[00:17:58] Randall Roth: I have uh Dan Boylan nodding uh very much in approval. Dan, any thoughts?
[00:18:02] Dan Boylan: Well, well, I I think back to a quotation that Bud Smyser, a wonderful quotation he had about Jack Burns in the post World War II era, where Burns didn't have a job to speak of, he was running a liquor store and he was hanging around in corners and coffee shops talking to people about the Democratic party. And and Bud Smyser said, you know, everybody, I liked Jack. He said, but I didn't think he had a chance, but he had passion. He had real passion. He believed it could be done, that a party could be reconstructed or constructed, really, we never had much of a Democratic party, and he just stuck with it. He persevered and he cared, uh and he and his caring almost carried him through.
[00:18:35] Dan Boylan: Smyser said, I knew men who were more intelligent. He said, I knew men who who had more money, I had new more men who had more influence, but I never knew a man who had that much passion and perseverance.
[00:18:45] Randall Roth: Any other thoughts Momi to share?
[00:18:48] Caller: Um, I I really uh and I'm enjoying all of the statements. I've been writing notes on all of these things because, and you know, I really believe you got to have a vision. Now, may maybe maybe the word vision suggests that it has to be something that sounds really profound and you've got to craft the words and everything else. But again, it's a belief. Uh if if you don't uh you're either a leader or you're an administrator. I think people who tend to uh simply uh manage things are not leaders.
[00:19:22] David Heenan: Okay.
[00:19:23] Caller: They're more administrators.
[00:19:24] David Heenan: Okay, well, that's great. I appreciate your input, Momi. Thanks a lot.
[00:19:28] Caller: Okay. Thank you.
[00:19:29] David Heenan: Um we have also oh David Heenan. Yeah Randy, just speaking of uh of administrators versus leaders. I think one of the problems that that the tends to depreciate passion are our bureaucratic organizations. I I read and watched with interest Dan show uh on Dialogue Friday night where he was talking about reform of state institutions.
[00:19:50] Randall Roth: And there was there was sort of a bureaucratic speak that ran through that entire session of job classifications, of of work rules, of restrictions, and the rest of it. As you came away from that and and considered assuming a position of responsibility at a senior level, you could have all the passion uh in the world and and uh those institutions to be turned around really take radical reform and uh so that when we talk about leadership, [unintelligible — audio glitch] is spiritual leadership, there's moral leadership, there's political elected leadership, uh then there's bureaucratic leadership. And and they are very different styles that that uh impact those organizations. Somebody that's going to be very effective in Rome is not going to be effective in the Pentagon and vice versa.
[00:20:34] David Heenan: Okay. Well, one other person we've had on the line since the beginning of the show, Murray Badden. Some of you uh will recall that Murray was one of our guests in the studio last week when we were talking about New Zealand, what's going on there, and what some of the lessons might be for us here in Hawaii. Murray also does a lot of leadership training and as he was leaving the studio last week, I asked him if he would be willing to share some thoughts on leadership this week. And so Murray Badden, good morning.
[00:21:01] Dan Boylan: Morning, Randy. How are you?
[00:21:02] David Heenan: Uh what's uh what's to be said about leadership?
[00:21:05] Dan Boylan: Well, we've said a lot and we've probably said a lot of the key things. I I think One of the great catch phrase that uh people need to understand, people who are leaders, whether they be parents, or small business leaders, or political giants, is that leadership is action and not position. I still think we see far too many people who really think that uh they've made made the top, and they are a leader because of the position they've got. And in in the in that regard, then, to pick up what others have said, I think that uh we really need to understand that the communication of leader, leaders, primarily is their example. Because people actually just listen to the words or the preaching, but they follow the example that's set by this leader.
[00:21:46] David Heenan: Uh so my question earlier on whether or not we can teach leadership, it sounds like you would say sure, but only by example?
[00:21:52] Dan Boylan: Well, primarily by example, because the measure then of that [unintelligible — audio glitch] that example, the measure of the leadership's ability, a leader's ability, um is is really the performance of the followers, and the reaction of the followers. Uh and and that's just how they follow, it determines whether the leader is good or bad. And I think that's All the examples that we've heard from some of the big national and great name leaders, uh is very really been exampled by the by uh or or their performance has been measured by the reaction and action of the followers and whether they have in fact followed. And the last point I'd like to make is that um I think that if it is true that we all uh hear hear a lot that leaders achieve their results basically through the action of the followers or other people, then service is probably the greatest thing that uh leaders can do for their followers. So that if uh if they serve the people that follow them well and remove the obstacles that get in the way of people to do the very things that uh we want them to do, um by serving those people, they are in fact uh enhancing their chances of achieving the goals and the vision. So I think that probably the greatest action that a that a um that the greatest action that a leader takes is probably serving the people that he follows, legitimately serving them and removing obstacles that then allows them to realize their full potential and do the job that's needed to reach the the vision [unintelligible — audio glitch] the goal.
[00:23:19] David Heenan: Okay. Well, thank you very much, Murray. We really appreciate your sharing that. Listeners out there, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests in the studio this morning are Dan Boylan, a UH Professor of History, and David Heenan, a Campbell Estate trustee. We're talking about leadership, and we've heard a number of voices uh from outside the studio, and now is the time in the show when we encourage listeners to call in and ask questions or make brief comments. Our number is 955-8821, and neighbor Islanders are always invited to call collect. The number again, 955-8821. Well, first of all, we have Smita from Honolulu. Good morning, Smita.
[00:24:01] Caller: Good morning. Um I have a question. Um we say that good leaders, among all the other things that people um in the studio said, good leaders have um two other important qualities. And one is to translate the vision and mission statements into specific behavioral outcomes and two realize that when certain management strategies are not uh demonstrating any change in the performance of the followers, uh sometimes we think it's logical to assume that the management strategy is not working. Why do you think uh and you know, any of the um speakers could answer that, why do you think leaders have trouble seeing that mismanagement or no positive outcome is directly related to their management style or because of a mismatch between the organization's mission statement and how the mission is translated into outcomes?
[00:25:02] David Heenan: Well, let's let's first see if David Heenan agrees with your statement and uh then have him talk a little bit about it. David.
[00:25:09] Randall Roth: Well, as indicated earlier, I think leaders try to try to hold the raise the bar, they try to uh exert a heavy level level of accountability on people. They they do try to, as Murray indicated earlier, energize their followers and basically cut them loose but importantly hold them accountable and in incorporate the kind of evaluation process to to let them know that in fact things are proceeding on course. Again, Dan had a session on Friday night that that examined the issues of of accountability within state government and it's very very different than it is in in other institutions. But certainly a good leader is is very much uh involved in trying to assess performance and to reward the winners and to get rid of the losers. Mhm.
[00:26:38] Caller: What if uh leaders are losers themselves? I mean, if they have no following in the organization, but people don't know that there's a way to ask them to step down.
[00:26:49] Randall Roth: So, they're not leaders, but they're in a position of leadership. That right, there you go. When when leaders lose their followers, they have they have had it and if if certainly if they're publicly traded organizations, that will catch up to them, whether it's Bill Ag at Morrison, Knutsen, or whatever, but it uh sooner or later they are doomed. Uh just just to Dan's point of uh of of in many respects the the public sector that you do have tremendous amounts of dedicated folks. There is, however, sort of a sleepwalking that takes place in many institutions of government where people's motivations really are frozen because they aren't allowed to participate economically or spiritually in sort of the upside. And uh and uh they aren't uh penalized in any meaningful respect for for poor performance. And I think one of the challenges of of any public sector leader that distinguishes them back to Momi's point from simply the bureaucratic administrator is the ability to inspire those folks whose who who really in fact do want to do a good job, but uh whose motivations may have been blunted and uh they'd like like to be energized. People want to succeed in any organizational setting.
[00:27:56] David Heenan: Okay. Thank you Smita, we appreciate your call.
[00:27:58] Caller: Thanks for the response.
[00:27:59] David Heenan: We have from Waikiki, Steve. Good morning, Steve.
[00:28:02] Caller: Good morning. Uh very quick question, both of your panelists are probably intimately familiar with this, including Dave Heenan, who was a member of the faculty for some years. Um talk about public institutions and leadership. The university is touted frequently as the the main economic engine down the line and has had notably very little leadership over the years, certainly has zero leadership right now, and the current President who has no followers whatsoever, who is heartily disliked and disrespected throughout the faculty. I'd like to get some comments on that and uh hear what you have to say about how we energize the university.
[00:28:39] David Heenan: Uh David Heenan, And I'll get off the phone and listen. You've just heard a very extreme statement. What's your reaction?
[00:28:46] Randall Roth: I'm I'm not going to comment on Ken Mortimer's abilities or or lack thereof. I happen to happen to like the guy, but I think in terms of the university situation, I think uh its direction really starts at the Governor's office and the sort of commitment and support that he is able to to render and that starts off with board of Regents appointments that we've we've heard from uh two very distinguished Regents this morning, but they in many respects set set the tone and clearly the president uh sets it as well, but in large part and this gets to the article today, the heart and life of a university is the faculty. They the a university's quality is determined in the final analysis by the dedication and and support of of the faculty and uh to the extent they participate in that process to the extent they are energized and and excited about it, then you'll see change to the extent that they simply sit back and uh and don't participate, however, you'll you'll see a an institution adrift.
[00:29:21] David Heenan: So, if there isn't great followership at a place like the university, it's going to be impossible for great leadership?
[00:29:27] Randall Roth: I I think Randy, particularly in a professional setting, uh whether it's a law firm, a uh a medical practice, a hospital, uh these these are people that are in many respects individual contributors, that's why they have gone into the profession. Uh they don't want a lot of [unintelligible — audio glitch] hassles of of sort of traditional management, and these are the people that Murray talked about, where leaders really, if they're going to do the job as Deans or University Presidents, have to cut those people free, have to provide support for them and and incentives for them and and they're they're very, very different from the kind of incentives we for example would find in business.
[00:34:38] Randall Roth: to uh inflame to some extent uh their their needs and and let people know exactly what they're looking for and demand excellence from the top, not the other way around. I think it really is the principle of descending leadership is particularly visible in in a university setting.
[00:34:54] Caller: Dan Boylan Yeah, I I'm not I'm not sure that I agree with with Heins that it's just [unintelligible — audio glitch] faculty. Uh it seems to me [unintelligible — audio glitch] most difficult thing, perhaps one of the most difficult leadership positions in the in the country today is that of a a major university president. There are so many constituency, there's downtown, there's there's students, there's faculty, there's board of Regents, there's the legislature, there's the Governor, there are so many constituent constituencies. There's the problems of raising money if you're in a private institution, the president of Harvard recently had a was had to take an exhaustion leave. Uh it's it's a very very tough job and what I find interesting about UH presidents is we we tend to dismiss them about 6 months after they arrive if we're faculty members and say, they're no damn good, uh they they're not leaders. I don't know how you lead a major university anymore. It is so entrepreneurial, faculties are so entrepreneurial, uh uh there's so much duplication that if if [unintelligible — audio glitch] talk about public sector uh life, Dave, uh it seems to me no institution is as difficult to shake as a major university or in this country and that includes uh obviously the University of Hawaii.
[00:36:05] David Heenan: Is it true too that if a person has all the characteristics that have been described this morning, passion and principle and perseverance etc., that if the direction they're going isn't the direction somebody else wants them to go, then that somebody else is going to say they're not a good leader, they don't know what they're doing or whatever, Dan?
[00:36:25] Caller: Oh, absolutely. I think we decide who the good leaders are in the in the history books. Uh you have to get perspective on people. If you don't, you you can't tell now.
[00:36:43] David Heenan: And you you can be uh we talked about raising the standard. You can be too far out in front of your constituency. If the president of the University of Hawaii says we're going to be the Harvard of the Pacific and the next day raises the tuition to $35,000 a year, uh there won't be too many followers in town, so Won't be many students won't be many students as well. But Dan makes a good point, I think there's probably is no more difficult job and and my colleagues in business, I don't think fully appreciate this than than being a university president. It is terribly difficult because you have so many gnawing demands on you. Nonetheless, there are people that perform through that uh through that malaise. And I think what it takes is a very, very strong uh sense of of purpose. It takes uh it does take clearly passion, it takes tremendous energy, and it probably takes frankly something like a 4 to 5 to 6 year commitment where you come in and and try to accomplish two or three main things and then get out with your hide because it's very, very hard in those jobs to sustain yourself as a change agent over a decade.
[00:37:34] David Heenan: Okay. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Ross, and I'm here in the studio with Dan Boylan and David Heenan. We're talking about leadership. We're trying to figure out what it is, how do you recognize it, and uh how do you teach it and all those sorts of things. We have a caller now from Hawaii Kai. If you would like to call in, our number is 955-8821. We welcome your questions and any brief comment that you'd like to make about our subject.
[00:38:00] Randall Roth: on let's see line one from Hawaii Kai, we have Martha. Good morning, Martha.
[00:38:04] Caller: Thank you. Good morning. I I would like to make a suggestion that uh um followership is such a passive word. And you're speaking of leadership as something dynamic and active, and I'd like to suggest that maybe we look for another word than followership, such as cooperative participation, which would show more democratic spirit, more initiative, more thinking.
[00:38:26] Randall Roth: Well, let's see what the author of a column in this morning's newspaper on followership has to say about that, Martha.
[00:38:33] David Heenan: Martha, I will defer to you. I think your word choice is probably a lot better than mine.
[00:38:39] Randall Roth: And I'm delighted, by the way, on 4th of July weekend, we're getting calls. This is, I wouldn't have expected it, but, there are some passionate listeners out there. Dan Boylan, any thoughts about Martha's comment?
[00:38:52] Dan Boylan: Um, I I there, yeah, uh, uh one of the problems of collaborative participation in democracy, excuse me?
[00:39:00] Caller: I said cooperative.
[00:39:02] Dan Boylan: Cooperative participation, excuse me. Uh and democracy, [unintelligible — audio glitch] read an interesting uh um essay once by a Minnesota old line uh um union leader involved in politics, and he pointed out that one of the real problems with the modern uh democratic party was that it it had become too participatory. Uh that it was made for people who like to sit through long meetings, people like university faculty and and upper middle class folk, and what it left in the process were people who were essentially followers, uh like blue-collar types and and so on, who said in that, you know, the third hour of the of the cell meeting, "Hey, I don't want to be here anymore. This is I got I got a life to lead or whatever," and off they went.
[00:39:46] Dan Boylan: I'm I'm not, I think that there are times where leaders have to be leaders, and and the participation has to end, and otherwise I I think that uh uh too often uh we lose a an awful lot of the people who are supposed to be involved in the participation.
[00:40:03] David Heenan: I I think during the uh the '80s in particular, Randy, there was a whole notion of stakeholder analysis where you got everybody in the room and and three of three or 4 hours later you would listen to the first wave, and then you try to listen to the second wave and and about several weeks later you might have reached a decision. I think, again, good back back to traits of good leaders, they don't dilly-dally. Uh they're decisive, they take action, they take risks. There is nothing more demoralizing than being in an institution, either in business or government, uh where you where you get this long, prolonged inability to make a decision.
[00:40:39] Dan Boylan: And and you can recover from a bad decision.
[00:40:41] David Heenan: Sure. Uh but if but you can't recover from no decision. That's right. So it's it's really the ready fire aim strategy, and and don't uh over noodle things or over discuss things to death because people, whether they're deans or whatever, they're paid, they want them to make a decision in the final analysis.
[00:40:59] Caller: Go ahead, Martha. I'm not talking about the people who come to the meetings and sit around and they're blue collar. I'm talking about the people who are actually doing the work and who never get a chance to uh comment on what they're doing, to suggest better ways, who are um the um objects of middle management bureaucratic um uh say ignorance or carelessness or misunderstanding or what have you. Not putting everybody down.
[00:41:26] Dan Boylan: So there has to be good, it's for people who are actually doing the work to feel that they are a part of the work, and this isn't sitting in a calling people together in a meeting. I shouldn't have thrown the word democracy, democratic.
[00:41:38] David Heenan: No, but I I think I I think Martha has a very good point there that I mean the Japanese have Japanese management methods and so forth. They've been terribly important in the workplaces.
[00:41:49] Randall Roth: Dan Boylan, you're too used to doing this on TV. I gotta tell people who's saying all this stuff. That was Dan Boylan, now Dave Heenan.
[00:41:57] David Heenan: Well, you know his monotone, we we all recognize that. But but this this whole total quality management business. So there was a piece on inside business yesterday about a couple of young guys that went into a Brooklyn manufacturing facility and did exactly what Martha was was describing, of bringing people into the process, working people who uh uh had never been involved before and and recreating the whole workflow and and living happily ever after. It uh it it can be done. The Japanese, the Swedes and others have shown us, and I I think uh it's uh it's very much part of [unintelligible — audio glitch] system today.
[00:42:30] Randall Roth: Okay. Martha, thank you very much for your call.
[00:42:32] Caller: Thank you.
[00:42:33] Randall Roth: We have Daniel on Maui. Good morning, Daniel.
[00:42:36] Dan Boylan: Uh, hello.
[00:42:37] Randall Roth: Good morning.
[00:42:37] Dan Boylan: Yes, uh, I I would like to I would like to make a little comments there about uh view question there. Um, you didn't you didn't talk at all about the motivation for person to become a a leader, say, the own um say ethics, right? I'm from Russia, originally so I I speak my English is not as as fluent right. And uh you were just talking about the Japanese leader the Japanese leadership, right? The Japanese um executives, right? Yeah, they don't make uh more than say 10 times more money than standard worker there in Japan. In America, say, I think it's about 120.
[00:43:19] Randall Roth: Daniel, you you've raised uh an interesting topic, and Dan Boylan smiled from ear to ear. I think he's got a comment to make. We'll see what it is.
[00:43:27] Dan Boylan: For a guy who's making a buck and a quarter an hour. You gotta discount this comment. That that was Dave Heenan giving, giving a pre-and. I think that there's a there's an interesting point there. Um, namely in the United States, of course, we have this incredible uh um figure on on income, where American executives, supposedly leaders of American business, uh have seen to it that they're making, what is it, 45, 50, 60 times the amount that [unintelligible — audio glitch] median income of the worker is, and [unintelligible — audio glitch] just exploded during the 1980s and the 1990s. Uh, and on the on the uh Oh, oh, Heenan's just got some figures. Uh in in both Europe and Japan, it's nowhere near that kind of figure. I think that's a, that's an interesting thing.
[00:44:14] Randall Roth: Is it a problem?
[00:44:15] Dan Boylan: Oh, you bet it's a problem, because I think we're losing followership because they're they're working two, three, four jobs because they haven't got uh you know, they haven't got time for politics, they haven't got time for civic endeavors.
[00:44:26] Randall Roth: And they don't want to be inspired by somebody they think's overpaid.
[00:44:29] Dan Boylan: Yeah yeah, don't, yeah, you can't inspire me. I mean, you you know, you just took me out of a high paying job, sent that high paying job off to China or off to Pakistan or Bangladesh.
[00:44:38] Randall Roth: Well, I've got a feeling you've got a lot more to say on this, so I'm going to break and go to Dave Heenan and let him uh defend.
[00:44:44] David Heenan: Not no, wait a sec. People that attend Milwaukee Bucks games this year were totally delighted that a young 22 year old guy by the name of Glenn Robinson, the Bad Dog, got 68 million bucks over 7 years. That didn't seem to bother anybody. With the Michael Jordan makes, I don't know what it is, 300 million bucks a year. Bill Gates at Microsoft uh arguably the wealthiest guy in the world makes about $450,000. That to me doesn't strike uh me as as a lot of money. There clearly have been some cases of people that in the 20, 30, 40 millions that have uh that have gone a bit wild. Most of that money, if you if you examine how they got it, occurred through stock options, which is not a uniquely American phenomenon. It's in fact spreading into Japan and and uh and Western Europe. They don't get it generally on base compensation. They get it because they enter an organization. The price of the stock at one point was a buck and when they leave it 5 or 10 years later, it's worth 10 bucks and they enjoy that appreciation.
[00:45:46] David Heenan: None of the stockholders that I run into are are uh are disappointed when they buy shares and organizations that have quadruple or 10 times value increases. But uh I you know, I think uh certainly base compensation levels where they're out of whack uh probably ought to be reviewed. And if they're public companies today, I can tell you that those folks in their compensation committees and boards of directors are very, very much accountable to the shareholders for uh uh justifying uh whatever the appropriate levels are.
[00:46:15] Randall Roth: So you don't think it gets in the way of someone's ability to be a true leader, that they have the potential for making a large amount of money?
[00:46:22] David Heenan: Uh, it it depends on the industry. If you're talking about Wall Street, Solomon Brothers or Goldman Sachs, you don't join those enterprises as a follower unless you see the potential for making significant upside. You work 80, 90, 100 hours a week. That's that's the modus operandi in in that industry. That's very, very different from somebody who's running a hospital uh or a small mom and pop shop. So it really does depend on the setting.
[00:46:47] Dan Boylan: Uh Robert Reich, the the head of the Department of Labor is has written a lot in recent recent years actually about the manner manner in which the economy has changed, that we've entered a a world and international economy where indeed a man may be being properly compensated for leading a large industry in this country. Uh he's making a lot of money for that industry, but that leadership may not in fact be benefiting workers in the country. Uh and that is the that is the problem. I mean, he may be doing very, very well for stockholders, uh but not doing very, very well for the workers on the line who are no longer workers on the line. The workers on the line, you're running the company from Delaware, but you're you're, you know, you're making your product over in Taiwan, uh or you're making it in China now, uh or you're making it somewhere else.
[00:47:36] Dan Boylan: Uh and that, you know, leadership, we have to we have to recognize that, you know, one of the things I've always uh argued about political leaders is that I think it's a very complex job being a political leader because you have to deal with change in a national scene with changes that have taken place on an international scene, and you have to answer to a national audience for problems uh that are that have been created by a new international marketplace and a new international uh scene. Uh and that causes uh you know, that that can be very, very difficult indeed. And I think often the leaders of industry have it easier. Businessmen have it easier.
[00:48:07] David Heenan: [unintelligible — audio glitch] fascinated by this, but I think it's a different topic. But, David, if you want to respond one last time, and then we'll come back to our our real topic. Perhaps perhaps one last shot. I I the the ownership of our institutions has also changed. So it it was one thing to I think Dan is right on on target. If if you look at a company that's uh domiciled in Des Moines, Iowa and the shareholders are basically American and and uh and and there's offshore production and so forth and there's a there's a job loss uh on the part of folks at home. It's another thing if somebody is sitting on top of a multinational company based in Des Moines Iowa, but 70% of its shared are held by non-Americans all over the world.
[00:48:49] David Heenan: Who are you responsible? Are you responsible to the people in downtown Des Moines, or are you responsible to your shareholders? Most folks, including the SEC would argue that you're responsible to your shareholders. So if you think of yourself as being primarily responsible to your employees, maybe you'll be out of a job because the shareholders don't want that?
[00:49:07] Dan Boylan: Your primary responsibility like it or not is to shareholders. I think clearly you have to have your employees in mind or you don't uh you you know, they'll uh uh they'll turn their backs on you.
[00:49:17] Randall Roth: Okay. Daniel, thank you for your call. We're going to have to let's move on. Thank you. We have uh Duke in Wikeke, who's been waiting patiently. Good morning, Duke.
[00:49:26] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Um, I just uh want to go back to the legislature, which seems to be a a different uh can of worms because you have a bunch of leaders that have been elected by their constituents and if they have a a vision and also stay true to their uh convictions, how do you get anything accomplished?
[00:49:48] Dan Boylan: Well, Dan Boylan, you are a resident expert on political leadership or lack thereof. What do you think? Well, I think it's often very difficult to get things accomplished. That's one of that's always been the problem with the with legislative leadership. You know, Woodrow Wilson wrote a book at the end of the 19th century, uh condemning uh uh legislative leadership of the United States and his his uh it seems to me that on on any level, uh legislatures are always uh slower, have a great deal of difficulty getting things uh getting things done because of the clash of interest and the clash of in our legislature 76 uh different people. I recently did a piece uh for Midweek on Milton Holt, whom whom uh I had never interviewed before and never had anything to do with, just constantly heard from various people in the legislature how uh how adept he was within the confines of the legislature. Uh and I think that that again, we have to talk about in politics anyway different types of leadership. A guy who may on the outside of the legislature or in the public persona have a very negative point of view. I don't think that the the Senator Holt could get elected Governor as some people thought that he might be in the early '80s. But inside the legislature, he is a very skilled operator and a leader.
[00:51:03] Dan Boylan: Uh I know that people who don't like Milton would like to not know that, but he is. Dave Heenan, any thoughts on that?
[00:51:10] David Heenan: Yeah, well, certainly at the national level, whether it's the Congress or at the state level, whether it's the legislature, uh the fact of the matter is those folks don't have to take action. And as a result, the fast trackers in political life today generally are mayors and governors because they have to balance a budget. They have to turn an institution around at at both of those levels. They can't walk away from those problems. A legislator can and and they get great cover. But if you look at at the folks that are coming up on on the horizon now, uh generally the faster tracks, whether it's Tommy Thompson or Christine Whitman or uh Wilson or what have you, generally come out of state capitals or they're they're great mayors.
[00:51:51] David Heenan: Okay. You, I guess, I I guess what I uh also am thinking of in there is if you have your integrity when you go in there, and you have your beliefs that you want to follow, but in order to get something done, you have to concede, uh I'll vote for this if you'll vote for my bill which this is one thing that I definitely want to get past, I believe in. Uh, I guess I'm worried about giving up your integrity in order to get your your goal.
[00:52:17] Randall Roth: Does does the need to compromise somehow go against the description of leadership that we've been hearing this morning, David?
[00:52:24] David Heenan: Not necessarily. I think if if you keep your your psyche intact and your your integrity and your and your core principles of what you're trying to accomplish, uh you're okay. But there's no question if you're going to be effective in the legislature, you're going to have to do some compromising, some wheeling and dealing.
[00:52:40] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Duke. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. Our topic today is leadership. We're trying to get a handle on just what it is, how we recognize it, can we support it, teach it, etc. I have in the studio Dan Boylan, who's a professor of history at the University of Hawaii, West Oahu campus, and a columnist for Midweek Magazine. Also, David Heenan, who currently is a Campbell Estate trustee. Previously, he was chairman CEO of Theodes and Company, vice president of Academic Affairs at UH and Dean of the UH Business School. I'm curious, gentlemen here in the studio, um, and I know Dan gave us an example, a contemporary example of of leadership, uh when he was talking about Milton Holt, saying that he believed that Milton was effective as a leader within the legislature. What are some more examples of contemporary leaders, be they from the business community, from politics, from education, from unions, whatever it might be.
[00:53:40] Randall Roth: David Heenan, your turn, since Dan Boylan got a started a minute ago.
[00:53:43] David Heenan: Well, in in the danger of or to avoid the danger of offsetting anybody who uh who isn't listed, I mean, people that come to mind are maybe on the deceased list or the retired list, but I people in business that have impressed me uh as as leaders have been both of the Fukunaga brothers who who built the uh the Serveco organization. Certainly Wilson Cannon, uh
[00:54:05] Randall Roth: Let's let's go back. Why why Fukunaga brothers?
[00:54:08] David Heenan: Well, they again, they they took an institution that uh that uh was was quite small and over the years made it a competitive force not only in Hawaii, but uh in the Pacific. And I think importantly, to me, what I like about those folks was their sense of community. Uh Serveco was, is and probably always will be the epitome of the local business that uh enriched the lives of many, many people, but they supported every sports uh team known to man, and and really carried the banner of of business as you like to see it. Uh, people like Chin Ho, the developer and Sheridan Ing, uh another developer, are are folks that that strike me as as being extremely principled, yet extremely successful. Again, Wilson Cannon, who actually recruited me over here, the the late Wilson Cannon was the uh the chairman of the Bank of Hawaii, a Maui boy, uh never lost his roots. Had that tremendous ability to communicate through all levels of his organization in in a very wonderful way. I think on the retired cycle, uh Herb Cornell probably remains the icon of leadership in Hawaii for very, very good reason, and uh and and Wilso for some time. Bobby Fife, who recently retired from Alexander and Baldwin, also a guy who worked his way up on the tugboats, uh never born in Fiji, raised in Hawaii, never lost his sense of roots uh this tremendous ability to relate to all levels of folks within the organization and and a great love of this community. All of those folks to me stand out as as really being outstanding leaders.
[00:55:41] Randall Roth: Dan Boylan, any thoughts either about what uh Dave Heenan has just said, or any other thoughts about contemporary leaders?
[00:55:48] Dan Boylan: Well, I think Ben Cayetano, as we said earlier, has has certainly got a chance to prove to be a a great leader. He's he came into a a political campaign this last year, 1994, with integrity being the issue being used against the Democrats. It was pointed out again and again in the campaign that integrity was his issue. I think most people believe uh Cayetano is a a leader of integrity, [unintelligible — audio glitch] if he he does in fact shape up state government, there's something to be to be said. Daniel K. Inouye is uh perhaps a near the end of a career, but there's not anyone who knows politics in Washington or Hawaii who who doesn't appreciate the manner in which Inouye, via his own cultural uh political stick, has protected Hawaii, uh against an awful lot [unintelligible — audio glitch] very bad things that could have happened in both Democratic and Republican administrations.
[00:56:38] Dan Boylan: On the retiring at the retired politicians, I'm a great fan of Elmer Cravalho, uh who was a tyrant uh in some people's eyes in the way he ran Maui, but by golly, he ran it. He ran it well. And of course also a Speaker of the House of Representatives, and as an up-and-coming politician in this state, and I think perhaps a future governor, Linda Lingle. Uh she is bright, she has integrity. She's a hardworking, she's a, she's a, a person who, who inspires a great deal of trust who won her re-election easily this last time out. Um, I think, I think there are some faces.
[00:57:11] David Heenan: Can I just build on that? I, I on on my government list, I, the late Senator Spot Matsunaga-Dan, uh, who, in terms of the service orientation, there, there certainly was never anybody in the Senate who worked more tirelessly for his, his constituents. If you wanted three or four lunches a day with, with the senator, uh, access was the name of the word and that's, that's so important though.
[00:57:32] Dan Boylan: You know, before you move on, for people who haven't seen this morning's newspaper, just to the right of your column, on the importance of followership is a little column on Spark Matsunaga or one of his efforts and it's interesting that they would be side by side.
[00:57:45] David Heenan: Yeah, uh, I think Harvey Meerson did that piece. Just on the labor front, we had Akwan call in today and she certainly, uh, she and her late husband, Bobby, uh, uh, really were the moral conscience for a long time of this community. Tommy Traska, a wonderful guy who gave himself uh in many respects uh for the uh the working man and woman of Hawaii is a guy that that I rank up on the list and, and finally, I wouldn't forget the military folks. I mean, they tend to bop true town periodically, but I have been incredibly impressed over the years and I've been in Hawaii 20 years of people like the recently departed Chuck Crulac who is the new commandant of the Marine Corps and others that that we have gotten out of uh some of those officers, the Syncpac folks that have rotated through some very, very exceptional people in this community.
[00:58:31] Dan Boylan: Dan Boylan, is leadership on the wane in Hawaii? You know, we have a different topic every week here on the Price of Paradise radio show and it seems as though every other week, somebody regardless of the topic, will say, you know, the problem is that we don't have leadership right now.
[00:58:46] David Heenan: Oh, I, I think we go back to to Dave's point at the beginning of the beginning of the hour. I don't think we have institutions that sustain leaders. I don't believe that it's somehow something that you can teach or that you can inspire in people. Be a good citizen, be a good father and part of that is being a good follower or or, uh, as Martha said, be a cooperative participant or what whatever. Uh, institutions historically in this country have made people active and supportive of their leaders. Right now those institutions are very narrowly based. The Christian, the Christian coalition, the anti-abortion, the pro gun, the anti-gun, the, you know, the labor union, the whatever, but the labor unions which were which were some of our broadest based institutions have gotten [unintelligible — audio glitch] smaller. We have the, we have the largest labor union uh uh or um membership of any state in the union. Otherwise everywhere else it has been declining very, very rapidly. Those are large umbrella organizations. Political parties also [unintelligible — audio glitch] almost powerless today. Uh and, and that means we don't have broad based followers that people can lead.
[00:59:51] David Heenan: Some Go ahead, David.
[00:59:52] Dan Boylan: Yeah, I I, I think the, the danger is that we're in a bit, we clearly are in an economic funk right now. And to some extent we may be in a moral and political funk that the, the concern I have is that there is so much ignorance and apathy, particularly apathy out there that good people aren't emerging with the velocity that that you'd like to see them evolve. I think they, they have seen, uh, so much scar tissue on the backs of some other people out there that they are, are fearful or, or disinterested in raising their hands, but they're there. And it's really our job to try to energize those people. Some of the words that have been spoken this morning in the context of of what leadership is are our vision, uh integrity, perseverance, passion, uh action, leading by example, rather than just your position, uh principled. Uh Martha in Hawaii Kai was emphasizing cooperation. Your piece then this morning, David, uh talked about the importance of followership as I think a form of empowering leaders. What hasn't been said, just in a nutshell, in the last minute or two that we have to go, what hasn't been said about leadership or or any other thoughts related to what we have said, that ought to be put on the table before we move on, Dan Boylan?
[01:01:04] Dan Boylan: Well, again, I, uh I I've said it, but I'll say it again. I think the opportunity to lead. I think there has to be a reason to lead. Americans are not given to following people. Uh they want to be entrepreneurial, individualism is our strength as a as a society.
[01:01:20] David Heenan: So the so-called crisis, whether it's a budget crisis or whatever at the state level, you would see is great opportunity for leadership to step forward and, and it makes it possible. Exactly. Well, also the the points's been raised earlier that Americans are pragmatic, maybe pragmatic to a fault. We're we tend to we're the epitome of can do people, we tend to be anti-intellectual, don't like to conceptualize. And there really is a need in all of our institutions to allow people to take action. And leaders can do that and followers again have to demand that that takes place.
[01:01:53] Dan Boylan: Okay. Well, I want to thank uh my guests in the studio, Dan Boylan, a professor of history at the University of Hawaii and David Henan, Campbell Estate trustee and also the folks that we had on the phone uh arranged ahead of time, retired General Alan Ono, Momi Kasaemero, Murray Baden, Akwan Macrath and uh and all of the other people who called in with questions or comments about leadership. The Price of Paradise radio show director of operations this morning was Philip Hutchinson, our producer is Susie Roth, our assistant producers, Cassie Roth, Alia Yap and Wally Roth. Future shows that you're going to be hearing over the next month or so, a show on humor, what makes us laugh here in Hawaii and is ethnic humor something that uh uh pushes stereotypes that are bad or is it something that helps us do something that's very good for us and that is laugh. That'll be Frank Deliman, Corky, Trinidad. We also have a show on are we still on? All right, we're going to do a show on uh the war on drugs. Are we winning it or losing it?