Civic Renewal
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-01-04
Guests: Jerry Burris (Editorial Page Editor, The Honolulu Advertiser); Robbie Alm (bank executive); Mike McCartney (State Senator)
Duration: 1:00:44

[00:00:02] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of The Price of Paradise show. Our topic this morning is civic renewal. With me in the studio is the Honolulu Advertiser's editorial page editor, Jerry Burris, and Robby Alm, who's a senior vice president in the trusts and investments area for First Hawaiian Bank. By phone, we have Senator Mike McCartney, who's from the Kaneohe area. Jerry Burris, editorial page editor for the Advertiser, what in the world is civic renewal? It's our topic this morning, and it's got something to do with an article that you wrote that begins on the front page of this morning's newspaper. What are we talking about this morning?
[00:01:01] Jerry Burris: Yeah, I'm not really sure. I think it's a it's a term that I keep reading in other articles, so I thought I'd use it. But uh I think civic renewal basically is is an atmosphere where people shift from powerlessness to maybe hope or uh feeling that there's opportunity. In a simple sense, that's it. And how it manifests itself is different in every city, but it's from not feeling you can do anything to feeling you can do something to make your life better.
[00:01:23] Randall Roth: I get the impression that you think there has been a shift during this last year, during 1997.
[00:01:28] Jerry Burris: Subtle, maybe not permanent, but I think there has been a shift. I mean, for the past six or seven years, I've been in polling and in discussions, and in writing we've been getting this sense of powerlessness out there that I can't do anything about it. It's a kill fight. And I'm sensing that's not is no longer necessarily quite that way. That people think there is something they can do to make things improve for themselves and their families.
[00:01:48] Randall Roth: Robby Alm, I think a lot of people think of you almost every day when they see the bumper in front of them that has the sticker "Live Aloha". I know you didn't do that alone, but most of us think of you as having been the the point person on that. What do you think of what you're hearing from Jerry Burris about civic renewal?
[00:02:04] Robbie Alm: I get some of the same sense [unintelligible — audio glitch] some things have started to take a a sort of wider hold in the community. One of them is the notion that we're individually responsible for what goes on, that we have not only the power to do something about what's happening, but that we have a responsibility to do something about what's happening. That it isn't a matter of waiting for some they, some outside group or individual to come up with the answers for us, to tell us what to do, that that the time has come for for all of us to step forward and and start to make those things happen ourselves.
[00:02:40] Randall Roth: And and when you say us, you're not talking about organizations, the Democratic Party, or the this organization, that organization, you're talking about individuals?
[00:02:49] Robbie Alm: Well, we can gather as organizations and I think most often, we're at our most powerful when we do, but we're not necessarily talking about the historic organizations of the community. We're talking more about organizations of mutual interest at this moment. The the most obvious one, and I'm looking at the the front page across the desk for me is, is look at the organization that's sprung up among Kamehameha alumni and and the parents and and teachers. That organization didn't exist a year ago. It exists today. And whatever the future of of the Kamehameha schools bishop estate, that group that's come together is obviously um had a significant influence and will continue to have a significant influence on events. And if you just read about those folks [unintelligible — audio glitch] what they think, a year ago they would never have contemplated what's going on today, but they simply stepped forward and and started doing some things. As we were talking about a little before we got started, essentially a group of them got together and took a walk and and a lot of what's happened came from those steps um literally that that they took one day around the palace and around Kawaiaha'o Plaza. And if that's where I look at as as people stepping forward in a in a "I can do" sense.
[00:04:07] Randall Roth: Jerry Burris, what do you think of what you're hearing from Robby?
[00:04:09] Jerry Burris: I think that's right. Uh um and it can be it may play out in back in political parties or political operations, but I think even that's changing a little bit. Uh the Democratic Party has gone through kind of the soul searching sense of how can we renew civic interest so that we can play our part in it. And the Republican Party has is trying to decide what its role is now, and thinking that maybe people will listen to it, finally after 35 or 40 years. So, it can be politics. It doesn't have to be politics, but the general pattern of of feeling that a group of people can get together and maybe not succeed, but at least get the system or the establishment to listen to them. I think I'm sensing that more. I mean, even the pop thing uh that gives people a sense of, well, here's an avenue for us, you know, during the elections in 94 that maybe everything didn't change, but uh citizens were able to say, candidates you need to listen to us at least. And the candidates at least paid lip service to listening. So that's a start.
[00:05:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, you mentioned politics, and with us by phone is Mike McCartney, who's been in the state senate for a a number of years from the Kaneohe area. Mike, can you hear me okay?
[00:05:14] Mike McCartney: Yes, I can. Good morning, everyone.
[00:05:16] Randall Roth: And I'm told Mike that you've decided to get out of politics, at least for a while.
[00:05:21] Mike McCartney: Yes. Um I think change is healthy and it's time for me to go through my transformation and make some changes. And um that's what I'll be doing. And it's been a rewarding nine to 10 years that I've been there. And I I don't think anyone, I mean, myself, I don't want to be a career politician. I want to do what I can and then go do what I can in another arena. And I don't believe you need to be in public office to make change. You just need to be committed. Like the article that Robby wrote, as people take responsibility.
[00:05:49] Randall Roth: Well, Mike, if if you if we accept as a premise what I'm hearing from Robby and from Jerry, which is that there there seem to be some changes going on in the community. Um will the political system be able to adjust to that? Will it uh will it change? Uh and if not, do we have a problem?
[00:06:07] Mike McCartney: Well, I think it ultimately will change, but I really believe that the change is going to come from things like Robby has been talking about that we need to assume personal responsibility and individuals can't look to a hero anymore or one leader to save them or save the day or save the state of Hawaii. It's going to be a a group of us coming together as individuals to make a difference. And that's about, you know, um getting out of the politics of blame and blaming people and, you know, not having any time to solve problems because everybody's blaming everybody for what's happening. Um it's really about doing and I think the community is starting to do more and more, take greater responsibility and do a little less complaining and starting to get into the action mode. And I think um the change in the political system, I think will come more from the outside than it will the inside.
[00:06:53] Randall Roth: What what do you think the people in the state legislature are thinking right now? Do they think there have been some changes in the community? Do they feel that the demands and expectations um are different this year, 1998, than they've been in the past or is it just an um business-as-usual mentality during this lag period that it's it's catching up if you will to changes outside uh its world?
[00:07:18] Mike McCartney: Well, yes, I think, you know, in the legislature, people see it. I mean, the legislature is a political body. They they sense what's going on in their communities. In the Senate, we've taken a collaborative approach. We're trying to solve problems collaboratively and ask people what their interests are rather than what their positions are and try to find ways to meet those interests. But beyond politics or beyond the legislature, we can create the best policy in the world, put the best bills together, but to implement those bills, to transform those bills into reality, in the whole structure of state government is another challenge. And I think that um we still have a system that is um very it's not oriented to make change. You know, look at somebody like Bart Kane in the library system. I mean, um it's not anything new that he's talked about with his project slimmer. It's been on the books for four years and he's taking a lot of criticism for trying to make doing more with less. And um there's a lot of examples in the DOE and in state government where people have tried to make changes and it's hard, very, very difficult to do. So um transforming the change is from a political context is one step, but then the implementation portion within government, I think is going to be the next challenge.
[00:08:26] Randall Roth: Okay, Mike, I'm going to invite calls in just a minute, but first, I'm going to ask Jerry Burris, who's the uh professional journalist in the room. I'm, I'm the rank amateur. Jerry, what should I be asking Mike McCartney?
[00:08:37] Jerry Burris: Professional is another word for being paid. It doesn't mean you do better. Uh I I like the point that Mike made earlier about uh you know, people were waiting for this great visionary and a white horse to come in and and steer us ahead and and that we finally realized that that's not what's needed. What's needed is for us to have our own vision. Part of what we've done at the paper over the past few years began sort of with that question. We were saying, well, who's the one with the vision? Who's the leader out there who's going to show us the way? And when you start to look for that person or that entity, suddenly you realize that that you don't need that. That you can do it yourself, which takes us back to Robby's position. And I think maybe that's the big thing that's happened is people are beginning to realize that collectively they are the great leader. They are the visionary. May I just share this thought is that, um taking off on Jerry is that a vision is only as good as the people who support it. And you can be a great visionary, but if you don't have people who support that vision and want to implement it, then it it it's not it doesn't translate into reality. And I think that's what's Robby's getting at is that people translate those ideas, those dreams into reality.
[00:09:37] Robbie Alm: The line between visionary and lunatic is pretty narrow. The other the other thing, if I just may, the the other story on the bottom half of the front page is is about Rail Son, yeah, who passed away. But in her life, even knowing that she had uh uh cancer and she was struggling with the the difficulties and pain of that, the choice that she made to give and to be a leader uh on the Windward Coast is a really inspirational story of a single individual and taking responsibility and doing things uh and in her case struggling under significant personal burdens. She didn't look at that as a reason to say I can't or I won't or it's not possible. She just said, okay, this is what I this is the the burden I carry, this is what I have to live with. And then went out and lived a life of of tremendous joy and accomplishment. And that's that's a tremendous story of personal.
[00:10:32] Randall Roth: Robby, in in your article in this morning's paper, uh you make the comment that that it would be more efficient if somehow we could get all these voices together, if we could somehow get organized, but I got the impression that uh you think there's some value in letting this happen just like uh popcorn popping, coming from whatever direction and heading off in some other direction. Tell us some more about it and then we're going to ask for some calls.
[00:10:54] Robbie Alm: Well, I I think it's not possible for our community to do that yet because we don't have enough of a shared sense shared vision. And that some of this popcorn popping is just a lot of people stepping forward and and in various forums letting things happen. And at some point I think we will hopefully begin to to see the overlaps and and the common threads in all of this. But it's way too early. If we were at that point, we wouldn't be having a problem today. I mean if we could get together in one room and sit down and and easily come up with one sense of it, this community wouldn't be troubled and we wouldn't be having the issues we're having. I think it's a reflection of where we are.
[00:11:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. I'm here in the studio with Jerry Burris, who is the editorial page editor for the Honolulu Advertiser, and Robby Alm, who's in charge of Financial Services at First Hawaiian Bank. With us by phone is State Senator Mike McCartney. Our topic this morning is civic renewal, which means kind of what you want it to mean. Uh you've got some individual responsibility here to help us shape exactly what this topic is all about. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. Again, if you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, having anything to do with civic renewal, our number is 955-8821.
[00:12:21] Randall Roth: Jerry Burris, there was more in your article this morning. Tell us a little bit more about what you were attempting to communicate and and what you're attempting to do with an article like that. It's a little bit out of your normal area. You're over in the editorial page and here you show up on page one with a new story. Tell us some more about it.
[00:12:39] Jerry Burris: I think I well, the assignment was to was to kind of look at 97 and say is there any sense out there that the community is waking up. Would you mind, you know, you've been sort of involved in a few things [unintelligible — audio glitch] just just do some reflection on it. Maybe talk to a few people and and ask whether things are coming together. That was the assignment. Uh and several things did happen this year, I think that maybe the straw's in the wind and maybe it'll be come to nothing. But I I think to me, one of the most impressive was this uh coalition that's formed between the community services people and the Oahu economic development board, which was focused on jobs and focused on on economic development and found that it was talking the same language as the social service people. We need jobs, we need economic growth so that people can get off welfare or whatever. And that's a really, really good coalition of people. You know when Robby was talking about common cause and people having a common vision. These are two groups that normally went on separate railroad tracks uh for their own purposes and now they're talking to each other and working together. So it's events like that that I think uh are the signs that something is beginning to happen here.
[00:13:38] Randall Roth: Robby, I once heard you say something about the differences between the economic revitalization task force, what they did and how they did it and the Hawaii tomorrow conference, what they did, how they did it. Uh had to do with heart and soul and brains and things like that. Uh tell us a little bit about that.
[00:13:57] Robbie Alm: Not sure that I want to really characterize the two in in two short a words, but the economic revitalization task force is really a blue ribbon group of labor and business leaders and when you look at the lineup, uh it was really quite impressive [unintelligible — audio glitch] group of people would lay aside the the hours and the time and [unintelligible — audio glitch] egos necessary to do more than than agree that you know, on the Aloha spirit or or something very general motherhood and apple pie. Uh and they really did sit down and and come up with uh a of a of a very strong set of proposals. Uh [unintelligible — audio glitch] fact of the matter is if you get a group of business and labor leaders together, they cut to the chase. That set of proposals is a very dispassionate set [unintelligible — audio glitch] fixes that have very little uh of any kind of overlay of of philosophy or of spirit or of gloss. They weren't interested in that. They were really cutting to the bottom line, what would make a difference. I sat that day with the Hawaii tomorrow conference and people there were far more interested in in things that Naino Thompson was talking about, about the spirit of of Hawaii, about the feeling of this place, about our senses of unity, about the things that matter from from an environmental and spiritual standpoint. Uh and that's also very important to people. And I think what I've said is is you've got to somehow get both together.
[00:15:29] Randall Roth: So, the one was a great product, and the other one had a great process in terms of lots of people with lots of ownership, but somehow or another, you've got to you've got to have people feeling good about how you ended up with a great product. Well, I see both were very interesting processes and and both have a lot to say as process. And uh and interestingly enough, Peter Adler, uh who I think a lot of us know was was really the facilitator for both processes in a number of ways. Uh I think what I'm saying is there are two different products. One is a product of bottom lines and of of tinkering with our economy and and [unintelligible — audio glitch] government structure, uh which you know, not everybody agrees with, but certainly is it's just a hardcore set of proposals with a with with a a set of proposals from the White Tomorrow conference that have some bottom line aspects, but also have a lot of of spiritual and and sort of larger theme pieces. And I think both of those, both those products need to come together.
[00:16:30] Randall Roth: Jerry Burris, let me play devil's advocate for a minute. Um different people at different times have said, Hawaii is really not going to change at the core until things get real bad. I've heard Robby say that the folks in Chattanooga, they really started to change once they went into the tank. It was just a hopeless situation. They had to change, and they did. In Hawaii, we've had seven real lean years, but it's it's been kind of a slow torture as opposed to going into the tank or anything like that. Uh what do you say to folks who say it just isn't bad enough yet in Hawaii for real change?
[00:17:07] Jerry Burris: Well, that's that is um the theory that most people use is that, you know, until you hit bottom you can't really change. Uh that's that's kind of a basic process of of, you know, personal change or community change or any other kind of change. Uh and so really if Hawaii can turn a little bit in direction and get something going here without completely hitting bottom, I think it will be a remarkable achievement. I think that that's something wonderful that we can do and show the rest of the world that you don't have to go completely over the cliff to to turn direction. And if we can do that, that's a model for other places. And let me see if I understand what you just said. I I think you're saying we probably aren't ready to change.
[00:17:43] Jerry Burris: We're not ready to change according to that analysis, that dynamic that you have to bottom out because we haven't hit bottom. I mean, someone said to me the other day is that, you know, any other community in the country that had our culture and our environment and our style of living would would just would they kill for that, you know? We're we're way ahead of where most places are. So we haven't, we're not at the point that Chattanooga was perhaps or some other places, but we're not where we want to be and we're not where we think we were maybe 10 or 15 years ago. So, we have an opportunity to to create change in midstream, which I think is really dynamic. Okay. Well, I'd like to hear from callers. What do you think? Have there been changes in the community? If so, what are the most notable examples? Uh what's the impact going to be short run, long run? Is the political structure going to be able to adjust to these changes in the community? Our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. Uh Robby Alm, tell me a little bit about uh Naino Thompson and the message that he has been giving about how we somehow need to be navigators and how is it that navigators think about uh where they're headed?
[00:18:55] Robbie Alm: Well, one of the the things that I think Naino has added to to the discussions recently has been
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: the notion of why people voyage. and if the Keala Hoku project, which was a community benchmarking project that started a few years ago and still ongoing, um was one of those efforts that that said, let's let's figure out where we want to be, what's the community we want to be. And and I think a lot of us were very taken with that and participated in that, as as Ninoa did. And more recently, though, he's also started to overlay on that, you know, why do people voyage? I mean, think about why the Polynesians came to Hawaii. What were they dissatisfied with? What did they leave? Why did they feel they had to leave if they had to leave? Or why did they want to leave if if they if it was not a a have to? And I found that very profound as I started to think about that. I mean, why do we want to change? What are we currently dissatisfied with? What are the parts of of Hawaii today that make us want to make it something different? And then we need to have a focus on that because that probably has as much to do with making that preferred future as simply sitting there with a blank sheet of paper saying, okay, let's write this perfect Hawaii. Well, let me ask Jerry Burris. You do a lot of polling and part of your job is at least trying to be in touch with what's going on on the street. Get your ear to the ground, as they say. Um what is it uh that that people are saying, Jerry? Why Why do they think change is necessary? Or do they feel change is necessary?
[00:20:25] Jerry Burris: The sense I get is there's probably two basic things. One is the obvious one is economic opportunity, that people sense that their kids are not going to have the economic opportunities that maybe they had when they came here or when they grew up and went into the workforce, and and people are upset that their children are are leaving not because they want adventure elsewhere, but because they have to go elsewhere for opportunity. So opportunity is a is a big thing that they sense that's lost, that we're at a plateau, sort of serving hamburgers to each other and not much else. Uh, the second one, of course, is a is a sense of of of, well, how to put it, but protecting what protecting the why, protecting the reason that people came here, that they know that they sense that Hawaii is special. Everyone, any conversation you have, you'll eventually get to people saying, well, Hawaii is special, Hawaii is different. And then they'll say, but we're afraid we're losing that specialness. There's fear that somebody else elsewhere outside of Hawaii is making the decisions and they want to somehow regain control of those decisions themselves.
[00:21:24] Randall Roth: Okay. Mike McCartney, uh out there on the windward side, you've been listening for a while. What do you think?
[00:21:29] Mike McCartney: I I want to echo what everybody's been saying, especially what Jerry's been saying. I think that one of the reasons why I think people want a change is that maybe we've kind of ignored what has been special to us for a while, and that's what Live Aloha is about, is about, you know, that the things that are really special, that are deep about the Aloha spirit and about what makes Hawaii unique. And I think there's a core group of people like Ninoa and people like Robbie and people out there like Hanani Napoleona who really believe that Hawaii has a mission for the world, and it's about, um, teaching people how to live with each other from different cultures and nationalities and perspectives and backgrounds, and how we can come up with a new way of, of, of living with each other. You can call it governance, you can call it politics, you can call it economics, sustainable economics, but I think at the core of it, there's something special that Hawaii has to offer that has not yet shared with the rest of the world. And I think people feel that, and they sense that that opportunity is out there, and it's not only just because we want to change because things are getting bad, but I think people deep down know that there's something more Hawaii can contribute, not only to itself, but to the rest of the world. And it's time for us to step up and make that difference.
[00:23:00] Randall Roth: You know, I've got a feeling as as folks are listening to this, at least a certain percentage of the listeners are at least skeptical, uh, maybe even cynical, perhaps saying that uh this is a sort of thing that's so easily said and we've been saying it for so long, the need to have aloha and to feel personally responsible and how we need to demand more of leaders and all of that sort of thing. Um, I'm really wondering whether we as a community are are poised to change anything. It's the same sort of thing we've been saying for a long time, isn't it, Jerry Burris?
[00:23:12] Jerry Burris: It is. I, you know, and it's cumulative. I I'm not saying that 1997 was this revolutionary year where everything changed. Uh, it's a gradual shift, but um I I you know, I don't I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, even though I tried to in a thousand inches of type today, but there are individual events that cumulatively suggest to me that the community is more willing to take charge and more hopeful about making a difference in its own future than it was two years ago, or three years ago.
[00:23:39] Randall Roth: Well, let me take this to the the political sphere for a minute because John Griffin also had an article in this morning's paper and I read it very, very briefly, but I think one of his questions was what's going to happen so far as as Cayetano's run for re-election is concerned? Was his election in 1994 kind of the the last gasp, if you will, of the Democratic Party's stronghold, and are we poised for change, for example, a Linda Lingle, for example, being elected? Uh or or is something else going on because some people, I think, see real change as only being signaled by a change in the party that is quote in control of things. Oh, but I heard a moan from Mike McCartney. Mike, I bet you have an opinion on this.
[00:24:26] Mike McCartney: I do. I mean, I personally believe that if we continue to just say, the Republican Party is going to make Hawaii better or the Democratic Party is going to make Hawaii better, if we just take a step back and look at it, the problems that face our world, our state, our communities are so complex and it's it's tied in with just change happening faster and faster and faster that I believe no longer can solutions be conservative or liberal, Democrat or Republican. And it's, you know, that same dichotomy, you know, back and forth, back and forth, and [unintelligible — audio glitch] would present that that isn't change. It's just going from one end of the spectrum to the other. We got to get out of that box completely, and we got to really ask ourselves, I'm a Democrat, but we got to ask ourselves, you know, have political parties as we know them today outlived their usefulness in solving the complex problems that our society faces? And I would venture to say yes, that parties themselves as institutions need to be restructured and refocus, um and realigned in order to solve the complex problems. And that's one of the big problems I see in American and local politics today is that it's more about figuring out who to blame and who's wrong. Nobody has any time to solve problems because we're figuring out who to blame, and, you know, anybody who steps up as a leader, whether you're Newt Gingrich or President Clinton, the other side pulls you down with a scandal. So we really as a society through special interest groups and single interest groups have infiltrated this process called democracy, and and tried to dominate it, and we've kind of messed it up a little bit and I think we got to have that deeper discussion about what is governance and what is our political system going to be like? And I think I would venture to say that as it exists today, it is incapable, it doesn't have the capacity to solve the complex problems that are out there because it just continues to create winners and losers, and the losers try to get the winners in the next election.
[00:26:15] Randall Roth: Well, let me ask Jerry Burris, because Jerry, as I listen to Mike, I get the impression that he's saying, and I know this isn't what he said, but what I'm hearing is that it doesn't really matter whether you've got the Democrats or the Republicans. You need people who live aloha, etc., that it has to be something different than the old political, um I agree with that. Oh, okay. Um, I'm curious, Jerry Burris, you're you're paid to be at least skeptical and maybe even cynical about this sort of thing. Uh what's your reaction to that?
[00:26:44] Jerry Burris: Well, I think a lot of it if you take it in terms of next year's election and the governor, I uh, I don't think people have made a judgment on Ben Cayetano, as John Griffin was writing. I don't think they've yet made a judgment about whether he's a transitional figure that can be set aside and try someone else or whether he's uh representative of something new. They haven't decided yet, partly because he hasn't defined himself one way or the other yet. Uh and I think that's a lot of what next year's election will be, is people deciding whether Cayetano represents change and something different from what went up to him or whether he's just more of the same, in his own style. And as they make that decision, they'll be making a lot of decisions about how politics is going to work here. Mhm. Does that say something that he's been governor for over three years and hasn't really defined himself?
[00:27:29] Randall Roth: He He doesn't think he needs to. I mean, he's quite clear on that, that his job is to administer and govern and deal with the issues that are before him and it's not his job to try to put a a spin on it, a visionary spin on what he's doing. But that's a defining of himself, right? I mean, is he basically throwing back to the community this um this chore of of figuring out what our future should be? In other words, we think in terms of a visionary leader, Robbie, is this back to what you were saying earlier that that maybe the visions need to somehow be the responsibility of of individual citizens? I I'm a little bit unsure of of how this works because normally we think in terms of our leaders being visionaries.
[00:30:30] Randall Roth: are desirable, Robbie?
[00:30:32] Jerry Burris: I don't think it's a question of whether it's desirable or not. I think I agree with Jerry that that Governor Cayetano believes that that you should read him by his actions. Watch what I do, not what I say, and judge me by [unintelligible — audio glitch] set of things that I do and the way I approach my job and the integrity with which I make those decisions and that's the basis for judgment. I think that that if the political system uh chooses not to to put a strong emphasis on on vision statements, which I think clearly is is what's going on right now, and and to concentrate more on individual actions, uh, that's I mean, that's that's simply their choice [unintelligible — audio glitch] you know, it's not a right, wrong issue. I think most communities desire to have a vision. I think most people desire to to see a vision uh to understand what the purpose or what the goal of it is. Uh and in the absence of that coming from from political leadership, I think the community will sort of move to doing it itself, anyway. Uh I guess I'm I'm not sure that that's the real competition here, though, and I I think it's also part of our community's transition right now, that maybe that was the leader [unintelligible — audio glitch] we did need or want, it is the one we selected, was someone to to take actions uh in a way that we thought would would uh be just very direct and blunt and and no nonsense and and no games and just show it all right there for us to see and that that's that's kind of what we've wanted the last few years. And I agree that this this next political year will be interesting to see as those running lay out how they view government and their responsibilities in the community, what we choose to do with it.
[00:32:17] Randall Roth: Okay. I I just have one interesting thought here that if if we sort of agree for the sake of argument that the community needs to come together and and decide what its vision is and then start to take action, then maybe you could say that Cayetano is a tremendous leader because he has challenged the community to do it because he's not going to do it for them. That that his you know, the hardest thing for a leader to do is to make make the community the people who follow him do the tough thing. Is that what they call putting a good spin on things? I thought about that. You know, if I was a spin master there I Okay, well, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about civic renewal. With me in the studio is Jerry Burris from the Honolulu advertiser, and Robbie Am from First Hawaiian Bank, and with us by phone is Mike McCartney from the Senate. Uh, if you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. We've got a couple callers on the line, but we've got some lines open, and I really want to encourage you to uh to weigh in on our topic this morning. Again, the number is 955-8821. First we go to Deborah from Kailua. Good morning, Deborah.
[00:33:16] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Um I guess this is addressed to all of you. Um my concern is that if the people of the community that's being governed don't own it in sense of being part of the solution, how much consensus are you going to get to support that solution? I think Mr. Kane has found that out by having a task force of of librarians and technicians come together to recreate the library system. He's finding that more people are responsive in the system and there's going to end up being consensus that will be supported by the whole group. Uh, I think your point about Mr. Cayetano might have been spot on. It's very difficult to give up the reins and say, okay, you guys come up with something. And that's a toughy. And even though I'm a Republican, I think that it was a tough job to say, hey, okay, you guys, what do you think? And then be willing to set back and listen to what other people think. That's tough.
[00:34:13] Randall Roth: Deborah, I'm going to get a reaction to what you just said from Jerry Burris and then I'm going to give you the last word. Jerry Burris.
[00:34:19] Jerry Burris: I think I think that point about ownership is really critical that uh uh when the political system here worked well, people felt they had real strong ownership in in the political system and in the people who were in politics. There was a close connection between the average person and what was going on in politics, and I think that connection has been largely broken. Uh people have gone off in other directions. It's partially there's a lot of reasons for it, but [unintelligible — audio glitch] close affinity between how politics works and how people think their lives work has been broken. Here. Right. Okay, Deborah, anything else?
[00:34:50] Caller: Uh no, I just think that that might be your central point is when you let it go out to people and let them become part of the solution, you're going to have a very committed populace. And and our legislators in some instances, seem to have removed themselves a bit from from the the everyday problems that that most of the rest of us face.
[00:35:09] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you.
[00:35:10] Caller: Thank you, Deborah. We go to Steve in Waikiki. Good morning, Steve. Good morning. Um I wanted to go back to a comment that came a little bit earlier about uh uh worry about uh Hawaii's children leaving and not having a stake in the future leaving not because they not because they wanted to leave and find adventure elsewhere, as as the speaker said, but because there simply weren't the opportunities here. I think really relevant to all of this is the fact that we're in a catch 22 situation. Uh the jobs, especially the jobs and the good paying jobs, the jobs that we want to see are not really here and uh and they're not being they're not being invested in by outside investors or local investors. I think largely because we don't have the educational base in Hawaii to service [unintelligible — audio glitch] really good jobs, so people go [unintelligible — audio glitch] invest in those jobs in places like the Bay Area or uh or the BosWash corridor because they can find an adequate supply of people with an adequate education to uh to operate those jobs. Now, the reason I say it's a circular thing, a catch 22 thing is, the state of Hawaii has one of the lowest per capita investments in education of any state in the United States compared to real costs. That's if you factor in the fact that it costs us more for a book than it does somebody in Mississippi to buy a book for for a school child. So our real actual uh dollar investment in in constant dollar investment in Hawaii is very, very low compared to the rest of the nation. So, we essentially don't pay for education. We don't have an educate populace, they can't get jobs because nobody wants to invest in the jobs here, and it goes around and around circle. I think if as long as they don't invest in education, they're not going to get anything.
[00:36:53] Randall Roth: Let me come back to you in a moment. Jerry Burris, as I was listening to Steve, I was thinking a few days ago, there was a very big editorial in the advertiser. I don't know if you wrote it or it was a team effort or just who did it, but what I remember about it is that it said in terms of making things better, we've got to start with education. Uh there seems to be a consensus of sorts about that, and yet I don't think there's the feeling that it's really happening. And as I'm listening to Steve, he's suggesting that uh that it isn't.
[00:37:21] Jerry Burris: There's a certainly a consensus about that. I mean, what he is the caller's point was is exactly right. In any conversation you have, you eventually get back to, well, if the school system were better, things would work. And I'm talking about schools all the way through the university, producing high quality working uh trained people. So it does come back to education and uh what I don't have a good handle on, I don't think anyone does, is what is that magic key that makes an average education system a great education system. Uh that's and I don't have the answer to that, but I know that that's what people are hungering for. They want to say, Hawaii educates people as well as anywhere any place in the world. That's what they're hungry for.
[00:38:00] Randall Roth: more indefinite than that. Let's see if Robbie Om has a possible answer.
[00:38:05] Robbie Alm: Oh, I'm not sure I have any answer. I think that that [unintelligible — audio glitch] theme that's been running through the state for a very long time. Ironically when you when people go and poll, people always like their own school. And their own school is not too bad, but the school system as a whole is awful. If you go to the University of Hawaii, they can tell you about the the over the huge number of success stories up there, and yet people look from the outside and say the University of Hawaii is is really struggling as an institution. And part of the problem here seems to be a combination [unintelligible — audio glitch] what's fact, what's reality, the sense that in the end we're dissatisfied with the final result, but very hard time trying to figure out what exactly to change.
[00:38:50] Robbie Alm: As Jerry said, what's the key to turning it. You know, and it's this it's one of those those very difficult situations because, you know, in in the in the finite in front of us, we're very often very proud of an individual piece of this, but we're dissatisfied with the entity that's that's the whole of it, the education system, uh in general.
[00:39:13] Jerry Burris: You know, that that last word you used, I think is key. I think I put it in the editorial, is that is the word is pride, and you can take the same education system that now we're dissatisfied with, and if you can create a sense of pride in it, with exactly the same outputs and in and and results and things, you suddenly it would change. So that we're proud of this thing. We're proud of our university. There was a time when I was real proud of the University of Hawaii.
[00:39:34] Robbie Alm: And are you saying though this could boil down to a PR problem?
[00:39:38] Jerry Burris: We'd be Kansas.
[00:39:40] Robbie Alm: That's and and what Mike says, it's not it's not a small thing. We did beat Kansas and we have to beat Kansas in a lot of areas. Well, I think I think it's a lot more It's a metaphor. It's the only Kansas in the studio. But no, go ahead, Robbie. It feels it's a lot more than a PR issue. I mean, it's not at all a PR issue, but I guess I'm saying it's not as simple as saying the whole thing's broken. Uh, because there's lots of success there, and there are lots of things that that are individually going right in individual schools, and at the University of Hawaii, there are tremendous accomplishments by the faculty and students on the University of Hawaii campus that are of national stature, but somehow the hole is not working at an acceptable level for us.
[00:40:21] Robbie Alm: So finding the key that translates from those individual successes to the system health is is really the is is the issue for us.
[00:40:30] Mike McCartney: Did I submit something in there, a question?
[00:40:32] Robbie Alm: Okay, it's Mike McCartney now, and then I'm going to go back to Steve in just a moment. Go ahead, Mike.
[00:40:36] Mike McCartney: You know, the word system, I think, is is one of the symptoms of the problem is that I don't think in today's society a system can necessarily deliver quality education, and it's about going back to the basic unit, the school, even the parent, the parent being the first teacher. And I think part of the problem in our educational system, it's the seventh largest in the country, and, you know, you cannot create quality in a system that big, and if you empower schools, give teachers, parents, principals the responsibility and autonomy, then the buck stops there. But right now, in the system we have today, everybody can point fingers at each other, and no one is charged with the responsibility ultimately.
[00:41:17] Mike McCartney: And I think the the movement that has to takes place is individual school empowerment or school sovereignty, where people at the individual school level are given the resources, given the flexibility and autonomy to make things happen, and then held responsible, and if something's not working at this school, then changes are made. But right now, we take the system approach, it everything just gets all blurred together, and I think we really need to look at restructuring the existing system that we have, not abandon public education, but restructure the way we deliver it.
[00:41:46] Robbie Alm: Okay, well let me go back to Steve. Again, the topic is civic renewal and Steve, I think you were suggesting that if we're going to renew anything, it's got to start with education and you described it as a catch 22 that we're not making headway.
[00:41:57] Caller: Well, yes, and I think that uh no one here has really addressed two of the basic problems. The one that I brought up at the beginning, which is money. Sure, you can't throw money at We don't throw anywhere near as much money at ours as most states throw at theirs in terms of what we can actually buy. And if you compare our dollar amounts with dollar amounts elsewhere, of course, they're high because our costs are high, but our actual constant dollars, we don't We literally don't invest to get invest the percentage of what we have in education other people do, so we can't expect the uh results. And I think the reason reason we don't is because basically Hawaii has a very um anti-intellectual attitude about education. It's, you know, education, people think of the university, they think [unintelligible — audio glitch] ball team, and they don't really think of much else. Like McCartney's comment, I mean, so what if we beat Kansas? That's really not very important if we can't read and write.
[00:42:44] Robbie Alm: Okay. Steve, I appreciate your call.
[00:42:46] Caller: Thanks.
[00:42:46] Robbie Alm: Um, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. I'm in the studio with Jerry Burris from the Honolulu Advertiser, and Robbie Om, who is currently in charge of financial services at First Hawaiian Bank. With us by phone is State Senator Mike McCartney. Uh, we've got some open lines. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821 or from a neighbor island it's 1-800-955-8821. We've had uh cameraman from channel nine down here and so if you are interested in seeing what they have to say about this morning's show, how they try to boil it down into about a two minute report, why tune to channel nine's news this evening.
[00:43:28] Robbie Alm: Also, if you would like to uh see a little bit more about what uh pop radio and the other pop organizations are all about, you could check out the internet at www.popweb.org. And then finally, if you tuned in late and you'd like to catch the show in its entirety, you can do so tonight at 8:00 on KIFO, that's 1380 AM. We go to Samad from Waikiki. Good morning, Samad.
[00:43:52] Caller: Good morning. Uh you were just speaking and it dawned on me. I have a question. Is it possible that one of the problems in our education system is that English is a second language for a large percentage of our population or a generation prior to those in school now are two generations before English was a second language and for those a significant portion of our population where English is the first language, it's really a patois or a pigeon which is spoken at home.
[00:44:29] Robbie Alm: Samad, uh you know what I'm going to do because our topic this morning is civic renewal rather than than public education or anything else. Uh, well, I'm going to I'm going to take what you've said as a comment and I think it's a very important comment because as I'm sitting here, I'm saying to myself number one, we've never had a radio show where we've had fewer callers. And number two, there is this tendency to go off, you know, into another topic and I'm wondering is there such a thing as civic renewal. In other words, are we talking about something that's that's not really there that really what we have to do is simply encourage people to quote, do something and then that becomes the story as opposed to to the I don't even know how to word this. Jerry Burris, you're the expert at this. What am I trying to say?
[00:45:15] Jerry Burris: You're trying to say sort of uh what what we're looking for, if when you talk about not too many callers, if if there was tremendous civic renewal going on right now, you'd be flooded with calls because people would be engaged, wanting to talk to each other about things.
[00:45:27] Robbie Alm: They'd have fire in their bellies for things that they're working on. And it's the same thing. I mean, you know, not not to be blunt, one of the things that newspapers like, is idea of an active civic community because that required that means people need to read about what's going on in their community and educate themselves. So we have a self-interest in having an active vibrant civic uh society. And it isn't there yet. And I think all we were saying this morning is that it's beginning to form. I think if we do this the same program a year and a half from now maybe, you get a lot of calls. I got to tell you, I was more optimistic at the beginning of the show than I am right now because if if people really had had, you know, given up golf or something that they thoroughly enjoy on a very personal, say selfish sort of level and had thrown themselves into some sort of civic activity, an opportunity to have some time on the radio where we've got about 5,000 listeners at any given time, they would jump for it. Instead, we're not getting that. Robbie Om, what what are they telling us by not calling?
[00:46:20] Robbie Alm: Well, I think for most people, it isn't the topic of civil civic renewal that turns them on. I and I don't think that's probably ever going to be true. What turns people on is education or Bishop estate, or a cultural event and and in a sense this is a intellectual discussion of how you do an overall look at what's happening. And I don't know if you're going to get people arguing that much about it, if they do, they're going to argue about the specifics, not about the the notion of civic renewal. I do think it's interesting and we tend to use New Year's for doing this to take a step aside and go, okay, well, what's happened in the last year? Um and that's it and what are you going to do this year, kind of a resolution. But my other part of this is is whenever people say, well, it it's not kind of happening yet, that's a moment when a lot of people say, oh, okay, let me go back to sleep, or let me go off and do something else. Let me not get engaged because it's not happening yet.
[00:47:17] Robbie Alm: And and that's precisely the moment that I think people have to continue to step forward and say, okay, these are the things I'm interested in and these are the things that matter to me, and these are the efforts that I want to engage in. And the fact that we don't have a mob trying to get in the studio is not an excuse for people to step back and say, well, Hawaii's not at that moment yet. It's not right. I can lay aside for a while longer and not get involved. And I I think what what we saw in the last year was was probably more indication that people are willing to do things than we've seen in a while. I hope it continue.
[00:47:52] Robbie Alm: Okay, well, we've got a a couple of people on the line. Let's go to Dave in Kailua. Good morning, Dave.
[00:47:56] Caller: Good morning. Uh like to just sort of comment and follow up on Mike uh McCartney's initial earlier comment and I kind of tuned in midstream, so I'm not totally up to speed on your um entire program, but I I think his comment about the uh importance of the sort of the local involvement uh in issues is uh is very critical. Uh whether that means uh self-determination at the local school level. The area where I've been exposed a lot in terms of community involvement has to do with, you know, basically taking care of the community's needs, uh sort of in in watershed issues and and that type of thing. But that seems to me where we've seen the most uh stimulating sorts of activities when people in communities can kind of come together to work on local issues that uh are relevant to them rather than say the big picture issues like trying to solve uh you know the economic problem of the whole state.
[00:48:56] Robbie Alm: Okay. Dave, hold on. I'm going to come back to you. Jerry Burris first.
[00:48:58] Jerry Burris: I was going to say that I guess what I learned today is that there is no such thing as civic renewal, and even if there was, we're not ready for it. But uh one of the things that one of the themes that keeps coming up is, is there a common vision? And this may sound corny, but in a lot of the meetings that I've been to this past year and conversations I've had with down at the very bottom was government and up near the top were community organizations. The the closer you are to a person, the more confidence and hope people have in the institution. So it's kind of interesting what Dave said is exactly what the people seem to be saying that they it's not great big dramatic things. It's people taking care of the park or working in their school or doing something for the neighborhood, whatever.
[00:49:32] Robbie Alm: That's the kind of thing where where it's starting to come alive. Okay, anything else, Dave?
[00:49:36] Caller: Well, just to go a little further on that idea, I think that we are sort of struggling with the notion of what our cultural landscape is or ought to be. And and some of those aspects of getting that feeling and finding a way that you can really uh contribute in a way that's relevant to you, uh sort of the outlets I think need to be stimulated a little bit more. And the big money solutions the big problems. I think they're really allowing communities to identify what local problems and concerns are. And I think that's sort of friends, drawing friends into the process and the uh seeing positive outcomes uh is is pretty critical to the whole, you know, the momentum that might be gained in a process like that.
[00:50:20] Robbie Alm: Sounds good. Dave, thanks for your call. We go to Courtney from Kailua. Good morning, Courtney.
[00:50:25] Caller: Good morning, Randy. How are you this morning?
[00:50:27] Robbie Alm: Just fine.
[00:50:28] Caller: Good. Uh, Jerry and some of the other people that you have on there, uh know that I've been talking about this vision thing for some time. Uh, and that we even had a group that we had meet over at the Innovation Center the first part of last year trying to trying to work on the vision question for Hawaii. The the pizza group. The pizza group, that's right. And and you've tackled the a real difficult uh subject uh this morning, which is probably why you don't have very many callers because it as we found out there it's really hard to put a handle on it. It's really hard to to uh get down and make those kind of decisions.
[00:51:03] Caller: And I think part of that reason as I look back is that what we did and and it was a lot that came out of those, but not a one paragraph written vision for Hawaii which is kind of where we were hoping to go at the beginning. Is that we have to stop and take a look back at the paradigm that's shifting in terms of what's happening on a global basis as well as how that impacts us here. Uh, we still keep running out trying to find a big employer to come in to provide us with jobs and that's not where jobs come from today and particularly not in a uh high cost society like we have here in Hawaii.
[00:51:34] Caller: The jobs come from individual entrepreneurs that that decide that they want to live here and do their business here even though their business may be done all over the globe. They have kind of a virtual office. The jobs come from uh people who are starting their little businesses along the way. So that's where people kind of kind of get started, and of course the key component of that is having education, the educational product here that will attract those kind of people. And the university in some instances does a great job of that, because they are world-class in the number of their different areas, but I would follow that to say, the undergraduate school uh probably needs some work here, and it would be nice if they were world-class in more of those areas.
[00:52:19] Caller: Um, and I'm just going to give you about three or four points and then you guys can carry on from there. The other one has to do with we talk about the people and what's happening in the community. Here again, I don't think we've quite come to grips with what the new paradigm is and how things are really going to be working for the next few years or 10 years. But we're seeing a lot of people taking personal responsibility for Hawaii and and where it needs to go in that. Uh, if you attended the Hawaii Society corporate planners lunches and they've been dealing with these issues along the way, the uh uh Hawaii uh venture capital association and their lunches, both those happened uh once a month generally, are dealing with some of these same issues.
[00:52:59] Caller: And then you have the the different economic groups that are meeting together uh on each of the islands that have been tackling some of these. So there's a lot of this kind of discussion going on. It doesn't get much play [unintelligible — audio glitch] uh and maybe we should spend some more time cultivating the relationships with Jerry and and the newspaper and such so that we see more of this in here because I think it's if you saw more this starting to come out, uh then more and more people would say, aha, you know, there is an opportunity for change for the better here. We can straighten out the mess that we have in terms of our economic situation, but we do it by deciding, hey, this is where we want to go. What where do we want to live in the year 2005?
[00:53:41] Robbie Alm: Courtney, I appreciate your call. I really really do. We're going to have to to move on. Before I go to my next caller, though, I'm going to ask Jerry Burris to uh to comment on uh just a very nice uh complaint, I think that uh the advertiser and other media folks don't necessarily tell the community enough about these pockets of civic activity.
[00:54:02] Jerry Burris: That's that's precisely the point that if one of the jobs that we have to do is stitch together these little pieces in a way that makes sense and start to explain it as a coherent hole. I mean, the what the article that we ran today that I did today, was a kind of a crude attempt to start to say, hey, there are lots of little things happening out there. That was what the point of the article was and it didn't stitch together everything but and it can't be just one article. As Courtney says, we have to, on an ongoing basis, reflect back to the community all these little pockets of activity in a way that makes them realize things are starting to happen.
[00:54:31] Robbie Alm: Okay. Well we've got time for one more call. Diane from Maui. Good morning, Diane.
[00:54:35] Caller: Good morning and how are you?
[00:54:36] Robbie Alm: Good.
[00:54:37] Caller: Um we were talking about civic circles and one of them of course is the very profound anti-intellectual atmosphere but then the other that really plays into this is the dead hand of the state. Why should people get involved if they know that their efforts are to come to nothing? I mean, just like the economic revitalization force, they're not to be a shell game. So I think there is a profound, profoundly demoralized population that thinks that nothing they do is going to make any difference.
[00:55:07] Robbie Alm: Okay. Diane, I appreciate your comment this morning. We're we're down to the last uh two and a half minutes and I want to give um all of that time to our three guests to kind of sum up what their thoughts are after listening to all of this this last hour. Mike McCartney on the Windward side.
[00:55:23] Mike McCartney: I just want to thank everybody and say uh maybe three quick points. One is just, we encourage everybody to be a facilitative leader out there to bring people together. Two, to get them to talk with each other rather than add each other. And three, just remember that change starts with you. It's not going to come from someone else. It's got to start with you, and you can make a difference out there if you just step forward.
[00:55:44] Robbie Alm: Okay. Thank you, Mike.
[00:55:46] Mike McCartney: Thank you.
[00:55:47] Robbie Alm: Uh Robbie Om. Yes, two things and they somewhat really echo things that Mike just said. Uh one is the spirit with which we live every day is absolutely critical and I I you know, I I heard what Diane was saying and and I think that there have been lots of people who have been have been burned by experiences of various kinds in this community and feel very negative, but I I think each of us has to wake up in the morning and decide how we're going to live that day. And I think the spirit with which we go through life is critical. The second thing is is you got to just do it. It you can't sit around calculating whether this thing will work or that thing will work or whether I've got the magic solution or not, you can't live your life that way. You just have to get out and do things and act.
[00:56:35] Robbie Alm: And and and in the end, I believe that the sum of those acts will make a significant difference. And live aloha, right? Live aloha. Okay. Jerry Burris.
[00:56:43] Jerry Burris: I was going to say that I guess what I learned today is that there is no such thing as civic renewal, and even if there was, we're not ready for it. But uh one of the things that one of the themes that keeps coming up is, is there a common vision? And I this may sound corny, but in a lot of the meetings that I've been to this past year and conversations I've had with
[00:57:00] Randall Roth: Something begins to emerge for me and it has to do with, corny as it sounds, the Aloha spirit, people's belief that there's something environmentally and culturally special about Hawaii, and those things need to be preserved and can be capitalized on, can be the source of our of our growth and our future. The debate comes in what's the proper use of our environment and our culture and our Aloha spirit. What's the not proper use. But I think that's moving the conversation quite a ways. Where now we're just we're talking about technique. We've agreed what the common values that we all hold. So I I I'm quite hopeful.
[00:57:32] Jerry Burris: Okay. Well, there you have it, folks. We've talked about civic renewal this morning with Mike McCartney, Jerry Burris and Robbie Alm. Uh tonight at 8:00 on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, you can hear a replay of the show. The producer of the Price of Paradise radio show is Suzie Roth and this morning she was assisted by Cassie Roth and Matt Nielsen who happen to be graduates of the University of Kansas. Our technical wizard is Jeff Alardi. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show, Aloha.