Conservative Politics
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-07-27
Guests: Francis Oda (co-chair, Hawaii's Future Today; pastor, House of Prayer Church; chairman, Group 70 International); Ira Rohter (Professor, University of Hawaii); Jack Hoag (retired bank executive)
Duration: 1:04:49

[00:00:03] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning on KHPR and KKUA and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic today has to do with politics and community values. With me in the studio are Ira Rohter, Jack Hoag, and Francis Oda. Jack Hoag is co-chair of Hawaii's Future Today, a grassroots coalition dedicated to preserving traditional marriage.
[00:00:48] Randall Roth: He is the retired president of First Hawaiian Bank, a member of the University of Hawaii Board of Regents, and a director of Castle Medical Center. Francis Oda is an elder of House of Prayer Church and is active in Christian causes. He is chairman of Group 70 International, an architecture and planning firm, and he also is an adjunct professor of architecture at the University of Hawaii. Francis was born and raised in Hawaii. Ira Rohter is co-chair of Hawaii's Green Party, an associate professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, and the author of a 450-page book entitled A Green Hawaii, source book for development alternatives.
[00:01:28] Randall Roth: It's been called a model for sustainable development advocates in the islands. Ira first visited Hawaii in 1967 and immediately fell in love with its beauty and people. Ira Rohter, good morning.
[00:01:40] Ira Rohter: Good morning.
[00:01:41] Randall Roth: I think you started this conversation actually about two weeks ago, a very long piece of yours was on the front page of the focus section of the Honolulu advertiser. I know it generated a lot of letters to the editor and I heard a number of people around town commenting about it. Can you real briefly tell us what your main points were in that piece?
[00:02:02] Ira Rohter: Uh, yes, uh I think number one, there's a lot of change that's needed in Hawaii and that there's been a a real modeling through and not solving the problems. And I was looking at what was happening on the mainland and looking at what was happening here and I wanted to address, I was talking with the younger Democrats, the more progressive types, uh activists of all kinds and I said some terrible things are about to happen in Hawaii, uh and it's going to be really bad.
[00:02:30] Ira Rohter: I wanted to address uh mainstream citizens because I think we're going to see what I call the Trojan Horse, where people are saying a few grand slogans but really have a much richer agenda. I wanted to talk to the Republicans because uh they're the there's a very powerful movement to take over the Republican Party. It's it's already heavily impacted on the mainland and we have show up here and we had an election.
[00:02:54] Ira Rohter: Uh, I wanted to really stir things up so that people would stop just thinking it's going to drift along and I'd like to create what I call a new politics, a much more inclusive politics, citizen participation and I think we have to change it. So I was just trying to stir up the stir up the hornet's nest and I guess some people are paying attention.
[00:03:14] Randall Roth: Okay, well I'm taking notes and I've got stir things up, right, that's at the top of the list. You're saying there really is a need for change right now, there's something wrong with the status quo. Uh, you're seeing a Trojan horse of sorts. There are some organizations in Hawaii that that maybe are a front for something, a little bit, I think you used the term richer agenda. There's there's more going on there than what we, the the people, can see. And then you're real concerned about what might happen to the Republican Party, and if I've got this all right, you're really hoping that a new sort of politics can develop.
[00:03:49] Randall Roth: Is that a relatively good summary?
[00:03:51] Ira Rohter: Right, it's a very citizen-based politics, which I don't think we have now.
[00:03:56] Randall Roth: Okay, so that was about two weeks ago in the Honolulu advertiser, front page of the focus section. Jack Hoag, you were one of a number of people that I think took issue with at least some of the things that Ira had put in that piece. Can you summarize what it was about Ira's article that pushed a button or two with you?
[00:04:17] Jack Hoag: Well, thank you Randy, and I want to first congratulate you for setting up these forums, uh which I think is excellent way to promote participatory democracy and the people's having a voice. About the only thing I really took a strong issue with, and I had a very pleasant conversation with Dr. Rother on was the fact that uh the article, and probably was uh carefully edited by someone else other than Ira, uh called Hawaii's Future Today an anti-gay group, and nothing is further from the truth. Of the last several years, since we've been formed, we have always championed equal rights and human dignity for all.
[00:04:56] Jack Hoag: Uh we have absolutely no agenda that would take away civil rights in the public place, employment, transportation, education, or whatever. That was the only major difference I had and I'm not sure that that was Dr. Rother's intention, I'll let him speak to it. I think the major concern too has been that, uh and I do agree that there needs to be an energizing of the population. Democracy in action here in Hawaii is that uh the lightning rod for this issue, at least with Hawaii's Future Today, that is same-sex marriage, came about not because of a public policy discussion among the people and the legislators that represent them, as the civil rights took place.
[00:05:40] Jack Hoag: Uh, just to correct some of our opponents in this issue, it did not come about because of the courts, it came about because of Congress through the people. Uh, this issue came about because uh two Supreme Court Justices and one and one substitute created this issue and therefore the people became very energized over it. And I think that is, to me, one of the ways that we're going to see more participatory democracy here in Hawaii, not because it's coming from the outside.
[00:06:13] Randall Roth: Okay, Jack, as as I listen to you, what I'm hearing is that Hawaii's Future Today, which you're co-chair of, and which was mentioned in Ira's article and and mentioned in a in a negative sort of way, you're saying that it is anything but anti-gay. That it's very concerned about this same-sex marriage issue, but that doesn't mean it's anti-gay.
[00:06:34] Jack Hoag: Correct, we want to protect the institution of marriage, period.
[00:06:37] Randall Roth: Okay, now we're going to get into this in more detail a little bit later and I know everyone has some thoughts on this, but real quickly, why is this one issue so important to so many different groups?
[00:06:49] Jack Hoag: That's a good question, you know, we had 6500 people down to the capital, which according to the capital police was the largest assemble group of multicultural diverse demographics that they've ever seen down there. I think the reason it's so important is because it is an issue, much like Ira's, that's coming from the outside. Uh if if you sat in Judge Kevin Chang's court some months ago when this issue was being adjudicated, uh you would have seen three attorneys in blue serge suits versus our little REC AICOR. This was funded by the Lambda Legal Defense Fund, a major New York funding group who are proponents of same-sex marriage.
[00:07:29] Jack Hoag: So I think as many Hawaiian leaders have said, you know, we're open diverse to all cultures and we're an inclusive society, but this is drawing, we draw the line here.
[00:07:41] Randall Roth: Okay. Francis Oda, uh I know that I happened to run into you the day after Ira's piece appeared in the newspaper and you were quite concerned about a number of the things that he had written. Can you, and I know you've got a lot to say on this, but can you kind of summarize uh what what upset you so much?
[00:08:01] Francis Oda: All right. Uh thanks, uh I do agree with this idea of participatory democracy, but the thing that was really upsetting to me was the marginalization of a group of people that Ira called the religious right. Now, I'm not sure and I'd like to have him explain what he means by that, but um he said uh this morning that terrible things are going to happen, the Trojan uh referred to a Trojan horse and I'm assuming he's talking about the religious right. I feel that um really the bulk of our community holds of values that are based on religious beliefs, whatever those beliefs are.
[00:08:39] Francis Oda: And I don't think, I think it's um dangerous when we start to marginalize and demonize a certain group of people in order to get participation, it seems counterproductive. And by reference, a lot of the uh groups that Ira talked about were Christian groups and I especially took offense at that because, you know, it becomes a very dangerous thing when in our society we can easily label a group of people for their religious beliefs. That it's just not part of the tradition of our society.
[00:09:13] Randall Roth: So you're saying whether they're getting better treatment or worse treatment when you start pushing them into a camp because of their religion, that's Absolutely, absolutely.
[00:09:21] Francis Oda: And I I believe that this kind of rhetoric ultimately, while it might stir up participation, has a very uh um negative effect on our society and uh it sort of uh uh kind of ends justifies the means thing and I don't believe for short-term political reasons these um these tactics of stirring up uh the community by this inflammatory rhetoric is going to be productive.
[00:09:51] Randall Roth: Let let me ask you another question about your article in this morning's paper. A minute ago, Jack Hoag was suggesting that that there are a lot of outside forces and and I think he was especially concerned on on what I'll call the other side of the same-sex marriage issue. Outside forces uh he mentioned the group that was funding the same sex legislati or same sex case. Um, suggesting that somehow we were a a battleground for something a war being waged by parties outside of Hawaii and in fact that was a an expression in your article I believe, a a battleground, that we somehow are a back door.
[00:10:29] Randall Roth: Can you explain what you meant by those terms?
[00:10:31] Ira Rohter: Well, we are sort of a back door because we're a small community. We tend to be very uh understanding of each other. We're not liberal in terms of individual beliefs, but we are understanding of each other. Our elected officials and uh judiciary tend to be liberal, and a small amount of effort and money can have a tremendous impact here. And people on the mainland with national agendas understand this, apparently. And I saw an article in the last week's paper um about the um title is Vermont, Next Gay Marriage Battleground.
[00:11:07] Ira Rohter: Now they've picked a similar state, basically of conservative people but with liberal policies small, just like Hawaii to again um move forward on the same-sex issue. And it says for example, Vermont is the first state to enact laws of domestic partnership benefits. So this is part of a larger scale national agenda.
[00:11:29] Randall Roth: So in in a way, Ira's term Trojan Horse where he was saying watch out for the the radical right, the [unintelligible — audio glitch] religious right because there's a lot more than meets the eye. You would suggest that there's some truth to the Trojan Horse metaphor, but maybe it's what you perhaps would call the far left.
[00:11:48] Jack Hoag: Well, the shoe is on the other foot. I I don't know if it's the far left, you know, I don't want to uh apply labels.
[00:11:55] Randall Roth: But everyone agrees there's more going on in here than what meets the eye.
[00:11:57] Jack Hoag: But it's certainly not the religious people in Hawaii who started this agenda and are funding it. Um, on today's paper, you know, the front section was on uh gambling. Now, where is that money coming from? It's certainly not coming from Hawaii. So it's it's the same sort of thing.
[00:12:16] Randall Roth: Well, Ira Rohter, you started this conversation with your piece two weeks ago and after summarizing what you said, you've listened very patiently to Jack Hoag and Francis Oda share their thoughts, their reactions. Why don't you tell us what your thoughts are on what you've been listening to and then we're going to invite some calls.
[00:12:34] Ira Rohter: Well, I I think that we are, I think we are in the middle of some very sizable changes and I think we're seeing some action from the gay community. Um, my understanding is that they are they've sent organizers here. Um, and they are responding to the amendment constitutional amendment and also the campaign. As I try to point out to people, it's not simply an initiative or an amendment but the agenda is to change the legislators because the constitutional amendment were to be passed, um requires that it be activated by legislators. So that you have to elect people who are going to vote that way.
[00:13:12] Ira Rohter: Recently in the last election, a Christian coalition circulated, and I just want to ask me ask me what the agenda is. Really talking not about Christianity or Buddhism or some religious ideas. We're talking about a particular orthodoxy and an attempt to enact a series of [unintelligible — audio glitch] programs that are quite, I think, serious, and that's what we really have to talk about. I don't know specifically who's doing what in town. I don't have the resources. Let me just give you the the Christian coalition's agenda, they pass materials out. One, to amend the U.S. Constitution so the first amendment's church state separations provisions are viscerated.
[00:13:46] Ira Rohter: Two, to shut down the departments of Education, Commerce, Housing, and urban development and Energy, criminalize abortions of any kind, eliminate the salt weapon bands, uh abolish many social programs, English should be declared the official language of the United States, uh and so forth. There's a very extreme agenda of censoring books, of of controlling sex education and then and so forth. And that's what I talk about the Trojan horse, and that's what's happened on the mainland, and I don't know who's doing what here, but this this these groups are here, and we have to ask all people who are running, whether what do you really subscribe to? Don't just tell me you're opposed to same-sex marriage.
[00:14:26] Ira Rohter: So there's a lot of information here that I, you know, have here, we can maybe get into it. And that's the agenda and not whether we we agree or disagree on some superficial things.
[00:14:35] Randall Roth: Well, for those folks who tuned in late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about the political direction of things here in Hawaii and especially the impact of outside groups. We're talking about the so-called religious right and and far left, and I suppose there are a whole bunch of of us in between, uh those two. Um, if you've got a question or a comment, give us a call at 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. We've got uh Rod Antone and Hans, the cameraman Colo, here from KHON Channel 2 News.
[00:15:16] Randall Roth: And if you'd like to see a a video version of what we're doing here this morning, tune in KHON Channel 2 tonight at 6 and 10 and I think you'll see a report by Rod and Hans. Again, if you'd like to add your thoughts or ask a question, the number is 955-8821. Jack Hoag, any reaction to what Ira is saying?
[00:15:37] Jack Hoag: Well, I just uh wanted to correct one thing Ira, at least I believe this has been uh affirmed by the legislators. In 1994, Act 217, a statute defined marriage as a man and woman. Therefore, come fall of 98, when the constitutional amendment is on the ballot, should the majority of Hawaii's people vote yes that they want to have the legislature define marriage as between a man and a woman, the act is already on the books. They don't have to pass new legislation. Because that Act was passed, it was not defining as far as the controversial issue is concerned, because it required a constitutional amendment.
[00:16:18] Jack Hoag: And that's why I think a lot of people don't understand that it will require uh a preponderance of yes votes because blank ballots and spoiled ballots will count as nos, but once, if it is passed, and that's still a big uphill battle, then the the statute is on the books.
[00:16:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's take some calls. Uh, first David from Honolulu. Good morning, David.
[00:16:39] David: Uh, good morning, thank you gentlemen for getting up this morning. Um, good panel today. Ira, I respect your opinion as a citizen, but with all due respect to your comments, they sound exactly like those of the Democrat Party first vice chair, Marty Rice, when he wrote a letter recently to the editor commenting that the result of any CON CON's going to be, I'm reading it here, anti-woman, anti-union, anti-environment, anti-gay, anti-student, etc., etc. Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the tactics the Democrats, and now the Green Party, is going to attempt to categorize a Republican resurgence in Hawaii politics as being a far-right movement. Is that right?
[00:17:12] Ira Rohter: Um, I'm not really talking about being a Green Party. I wrote it um under my academic uh hat and I have never talked about the Green Party in the article. It was a long version of that. Um, I am really unhappy with Republicans and the Democrats and I think people need to be told the truth as there were Republicans in the party who anticipate that they'll be taken out in the 1998 election. So uh, I I'm not sure that I'm running the party line. I hear that's what you're telling me that I'm somehow in cahoots uh I, you know, everybody's uh kind of peed with me.
[00:17:44] Randall Roth: Okay. Let's let's leave it at that. Uh John from Makiki, good morning, John.
[00:17:49] John: Good morning. Um, civil rights for popular causes really is is not civil rights at all. And my question is for Mr. Hoag, which is since when is marriage not a civil right?
[00:18:00] Jack Hoag: Well, as uh I'm not a uh a jurist, but uh I'm I'm told that uh there is no court in the land including Hawaii's court that ever defined marriage as a civil right. Marriage is a preferential status that has been afforded in societies, I guess everywhere, uh for the promotion of uh and a beneficial future of society. You know, it's a very clever but uh flawed argument to to try to parallel civil rights and the movement in the 60s with same-sex marriage. Uh often times we hear the folk saying, well, you can't take away our civil rights.
[00:18:38] Jack Hoag: Well, first of all, there's never been a right anywhere in the United States or anywhere and secondly, as I said earlier, uh the Civil Rights Act came about through the Congress and through the majority of the Congress represented by the people of the United States, it was not through the courts.
[00:18:55] Randall Roth: Okay. John, there is a an answer to your question, why don't you make a comment and then we're going to move on. All right.
[00:19:00] Speaker 1: The the 1967 U.S. Supreme Court case of Loving vs. Virginia, um, outlawed miscegenation, which gave the right of marriage to those who want to marry interracially. Um, I think that was a civil rights case. I think that was a civil right and I think what we're really talking about here is civil rights.
[00:19:16] Jack Hoag: Okay, John, thanks. We really appreciate your call. And, and folks, I know that that same-sex marriage is very much a part of this conversation. I'm going to try the best I can to keep this from turning into just a discussion of same-sex marriage, but I know that's a part of this conversation.
[00:19:29] Lloyd: Lloyd from Waikiki. Good morning, Lloyd. Yes, aloha. This is a question for I, Ira, um, who I really respect. I'm a little interested, a little bit more about this Concon and how it works, and how he thinks that it's going to be taken over by these people. I know it was one of his comments, and I haven't heard anything about that yet. Okay. The Concon. First, I'd like to ask him or somebody, how does this work? Concon and what's it about different than the rest of the rest of the political process, and also, how does this fit in with trying to jam in certain groups of people to sway the the uh the Concon?
[00:20:06] Jack Hoag: Why wouldn't why wouldn't it be a healthy form of grassroots, uh, you know, politics? It it would be and I've been an advocate of a constitutional convention, um, because I think that the legislature is so clogged up that it can't really make significant changes like public financing of campaigns. We need clean money, uh, changing districts around, uh home rule and so forth. A lot of issues that are simply not going to get passed by the legislature. Uh, constitutional convention the game plan is established by the legislature. They choose the number of delegates, they control how people will be elected, they set up the time that it will meet, they fund it, and so forth.
[00:20:42] Jack Hoag: The story that goes as now is that who who gets elected and and what kind of careful preparation is involved in the uh constitutional convention prior to it actually meeting three to four months. I've been given testimony on that.
[00:20:57] Jack Hoag: What many people are saying is, and that's part of what I was saying, the [unintelligible — audio glitch] progressive movement, the [unintelligible — audio glitch] average people in the state are not organized at all and are incapable of organizing, I would suggest. And the people who are organized are the people with money. So you're going to see the land developers and the people who are interested in property rights are going to run candidates who will basically restrict native Hawaiian rights. You are going to see the gay agenda is going to be involved. The question of same sex marriage and other sorts of discrimination of that kind. You are going to see a whole lot of things that they're going on and the question is who is organized, who has the money to run and you know, it looks as though that's where many people are saying, God, let's not have a constitutional convention because they they know they're better, they're better organized than we're not.
[00:21:44] Jack Hoag: Uh Lloyd, I'm going to come back to you, but first I want to hear from Francis Oda.
[00:21:47] Francis Oda: When would that not be the case? Was that the case, uh, in the last Concon? I uh, Jim Shown is the person who I made the first observation to me about this, and he pointed out in [unintelligible — audio glitch] '68, uh '78, uh there were two of them. Then there was a lot of people in the community very active. And one of the little games I've been playing recently is to ask the Democratic Party people, where are your young leaders? There aren't any young leaders. They have not created there's a huge passivity and alienation down there.
[00:22:19] Jack Hoag: So so we don't drift away from the question. I'm curious, Francis, why do you ask that question? Well, it seems, um, an avoidance type of answer, you know, it's a situation I don't disagree with. But the answer is to get organized, to do exactly what we all want to do, which is get grassroots organized and moving forward. Concon is a great opportunity to do this.
[00:22:40] Jack Hoag: And I see all three of my guests nodding enthusiastically to get organized. Um, but you're not for sure. What I'm saying is that I think the Well, I haven't really sorted it out. Well, as a professor, I don't really You know, I have some opinions on it, but, uh, I think that's what I've been trying to that's why I try to get people excited here. You guys are going to get creamed out there. Okay. Well, let me go back to uh, our voice from the public, Lloyd. What do you what do you think of what you're listening to?
[00:23:05] Lloyd: Well, the only thing the only thing I I I've observed is the last Concon seemed to be done very well. It seemed a lot of good things came out of it. And that there a lot of the things with the Hawaiian and so on, were were very good. Now, unless this has changed and there's more uh organized money behind certain projects who can get people elected into the Concon, which will be, you know, not for the public, not for the for the general people, then I don't think it's a good thing.
[00:23:29] Jack Hoag: Okay, Lloyd, I'm going to have to move on.
[00:23:31] Lloyd: But I I thank you very much for explaining this, because you hear so much about Concon, and what is it, what is it? You know, there has really been no explanation of how it works.
[00:23:39] Jack Hoag: I think your question is a great question. I really enjoyed listening to the interchange. Just. Thank you again for a wonderful program. Thanks Lloyd. Aloh We go to Don in Waikiki. Good morning, Don.
[00:23:48] Don: Yes. Um I have a comment that I'd like to just a two-part quick comment I'd like to address to both uh Jack Hogue and Mr. Oda. Mr. Oda was concerned about uh Christians being marginalized. Anyone who attended the rally at the state capital knows in fact that the hateful slogans uh that were being shouted by the uh the so-called Christians across the street. Um, it was very clear who was being marginalized then. The other part is to Jack Hogue.
[00:24:11] Jack Hoag: Let's let's get let's get a reaction to your first question. Uh, Francis Oda.
[00:24:16] Francis Oda: Uh, I was there actually and I did not uh hear it that way or see it that way. I saw and heard uh epithets coming from the other side of the street, a few demonstrators who were uh pro same-sex marriage. And, you know, understandably being very offended. But I didn't hear from the large majority of people those kinds of words coming across.
[00:24:39] Jack Hoag: And Don, I know that that you and Francis from what the two of you have said this far, are simply in disagreement on on that point. Why don't you move on to your your question or comment directed to Jack Hogue?
[00:24:48] Don: Well, I I find that Mr. Hogue Thank you, I find Mr. Hogue to be completely disingenuous in terms of representing himself as being uh not anti-gay, in fact he's a member of the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church is notoriously anti-gay. They have also um their their representative Boyd Packer has also indicated that the three primary enemies of the church, and that's almost a direct quote, are feminists, intellectuals, and homosexuals. They also oppose equal rights amendments. So to present himself as being uh moderate and not anti-gay is totally disingenuous.
[00:25:16] Jack Hoag: Um, Jack, I know you are um very active in the Mormon church. What's your reaction to what you're hearing from Don? Well, first of all, I I'm not familiar with that quote, but secondly, I'm here and uh I'm on this program for Hawaii's future today, which is not uh a Mormon religious organization. This is a cross section and uh we have never said anything denigrating or pejorative about gays or lesbians. Although it's come the other way at us but we've maintained our civil and human dignity uh tenor. Uh Don, you get the last word and then we're going to move on.
[00:25:53] Don: I I feel that that's just very convenient. I think that's very, very slick because Mr. Hogue knows in fact what I'm talking about, and because I've talked to him personally before, and he knows exactly what I'm talking about and it just shows that perhaps Christian values don't extend to honesty.
[00:26:07] Jack Hoag: Don, thank you. Appreciate your call. We move to Jerry from Mililani. Good morning, Jerry.
[00:26:11] Jerry: Good morning. Um you know, this whole issue reminds me about 25 years ago because I was involved in the issue to get homosexuality removed from the American Psychiatric Association uh uh list of illnesses. Uh That occurred here in Waikiki. They had a convention here. There was a small group of us from here. There was no national agenda. It was a group of us who went there. We had some literature and we gave it out and they they changed the the framing of homosexuality from an illness to uh a other form of behavior, an alternate form of behavior and it's no longer listed as an illness. And I think the whole reason that it was listed in a as an illness for for centuries was because religion had condemned and demonized homosexuals. And you know, the great persecution of homosexuals through the centuries has been through religion. There was all this witch burning and everything.
[00:27:14] Jack Hoag: Jerry, let let me get a a reaction first from from Francis Oda. Francis, I [unintelligible — audio glitch] know anyone who's on your side of the same-sex marriage issue, uh is tends to be characterized as anti-gay. Um, you've said you're not anti-gay, but I think a lot of people on the other side of the issue somehow feel that your position is an anti-gay position. Um, you know, what what how can you convince somebody on the other side that you aren't anti-gay?
[00:27:45] Francis Oda: I I personally uh speaking as a elder and pastor of a church, um am not anti-gay, and I I'm not speaking for a large group of people. I'm speaking for what I perceive to be a Christian community. And um, in the scripture, it talks about love, but it also talks about how we live. It talks about marriage and the relationship of a man and a woman in marriage. These are things you can be for without being anti-gay as such. In fact, our commitment is to love every single person that God has created and deal with that person, interact with that person in a loving way. So um rather than talk about large groups of people and label labeling the positions of these groups of people, I think the the future of this state and the country is depending on us looking at each other as individuals, work working forward with shared goals and values. I think that is a more productive way of doing it rather than somehow uh dividing into camps and then going to war with each other and you know, creating uh um labels that are convenient for us to uh then demonize each other with.
[00:29:04] Jack Hoag: Okay. Jerry, as long as it's brief, you've got the last word.
[00:34:23] Jerry: that we have the separation of church and state in this country, was to prevent the the domination of one religion over over everyone else, and and try to uh prevent them from making everyone conform to their religious beliefs. And I think the religious right, which is primarily Judeo-Christian, would like to prevail over all the other religions and all other forms of uh thinking. And I think that the separation of church needs to be maintained. And I think this Trojan horse idea on the religious right is true on the part of Ira Roter.
[00:34:56] Jack Hoag: Okay, Jerry. I I appreciate your call. I do have to move on. We've got Genie from the Big Island. Good morning, Genie.
[00:35:02] Genie: Yes, good morning, and thank you for this wonderful show. I wanted to make a comment um that to me, this is not a gay or a religious issue. This is an issue that affects everybody, no matter how we feel, you know, what kind of partners we have. And I think we need to be very careful to not get defensive or lost in protecting our spiritual or partner beliefs. To me, this is issue is about communities initiating and deciding what laws govern us and and what guidelines um as to how the future will develop for a long time, say 50 years or some culture say seven seven generations. Here on the Big Island we're being confronted by our politicians. This is not necessarily even directly coming from outside, but our politicians are bringing in um pulp monoculture. We've got about 200,000 acres at this time pretty much slated to have pulp plantations for making um chips to export for other countries. From This is coming from our government, and on this island, we've got the public outraged about this to no avail. The state and Mike Wilson are saying, we don't care what the citizens say. Okay. To me, the gay issue is very similar. This our whole laws seem to be coming around backwards. We need to have the citizens and the public say, this is what we want, and then have our legislatures who are our servants. We're not their servant. I think you've I think you've got I think you've got all three guests in the studio agreeing with the that basic point. Let me get a reaction from Jack Hogue.
[00:36:28] Jack Hoag: Yes, I agree completely on your comment about the legislators being more reactive. And I think from uh one of the productive things that Ira's article is that in our reaction to it and [unintelligible — audio glitch] our piece is the fact that a few liberal senators, and I hate to use even the term liberal, because I I hate labels, so let's just say people have philosophies that uh It makes it easier to talk about this stuff, but it's it's always a little bit uh distracting or or uh distortive. Well, it can be unfair. Uh but they refused to listen to what every poll, including both papers, has said 70, 74% of people wants to see something done. And uh finally through the House of Representatives and through this, I guess you'd say the spirit of compromise. Uh it took three years but it happened, Genie. Uh I think citizens need to get involved through letter writing, through knowing the issues by meeting their candidates, working for ones that they want to see elected who share their political philosophies. Genie, I'm I'm going to have to move on. I appreciate your call. Any anyone who tuned in late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth and we're talking about political direction here in Hawaii and especially how it relates to local values. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. With me in the studio this morning is Ira Roter, who is co-chair of Hawaii's Green Party and associate professor of political science at the University of
[00:38:00] Randall Roth: Hawaii and the author of a book entitled, A Green Hawaii, Source Book for Development Alternatives. Also I have Jack Hogue, who is the cochair of Hawaii's Future Today, a grassroots coalition dedicated to preserving traditional marriage. He's a retired president of First Hawaiian Bank, member of the University of Hawaii Board of Regents, and a director of Castle Medical Center. And also, Francis Oda, who's an elder of the House of Prayer Church. He's active in Christian causes, chairman of Group 70 International, an architecture and planning firm, and he's an adjunct professor of architecture at the University of Hawaii.
[00:38:33] Randall Roth: Again, our number is 955-8821. If you missed part of the show and want to catch it in its entirety tonight on KIFO 1380 a.m. at 8:00 p.m., you can hear the show in its entirety. And if you'd like to engage in the electronic version of this discussion, why go to the internet at www.popweb.org. And then tonight, at 6:00 and or 10:00, tune in and channel 2, KHON TV News. We're going to have Rod Antone and hands the Hans the cameraman Colo. Uh, wonderful, wonderful team from channel 2 are here this morning and they'll be doing a report on the show.
[00:39:13] Randall Roth: Well, back to our conversation. We've got a bunch of people on the line. But real quickly, is there anything anybody in the studio is bursting to say, something that has to be added right now rather than saved for our closing comments?
[00:39:28] Ira Rohter: I think the woman from Big Island has spoke about a important issue and see one of my concerns is as we talk all about same sex marriage, we don't talk about a lot of other things, the gambling issues, the economy, the environmental destruction that's occurring, that whether we should have more shopping malls and and theme parks and all that.
[00:39:46] Ira Rohter: That's what I think we should be spending most of our time talking about in the constitutional convention, and that's what we should be talking about in the political agenda. And I'd like to see you guys, as I've said, basically push this next election so that we get full revelation as to what the candidates really believe on a host of other issues, and that we keep that agenda really in in mind.
[00:40:07] Jack Hoag: Well, just very quickly, I I totally agree, and I think it was very disingenuous that occasionally we'd hear the comments that same sex marriage has dominated the legislature. There's no need to dominate it. They have many committees, they can walk and chew gum at the same time. They could have dealt with it if they were responsive to the people. So I think we ought to move on to improving the economy, privatization, many of the other things that need to be addressed.
[00:40:29] Elaine: We go to Elaine from Mililani. Good morning. Hi. Um I've got a question and a comment, and I'd like to ask Ira. What is your position with the Green Party? I may have missed it at the beginning, I'm just curious. What you know, do you do you have a role um a position on that party or are you just a member? Um
[00:40:48] Ira Rohter: I'm was one of the founding members of the Green Party, and the and I say I'm really talking more as my professor hat because I haven't talked about the Green Party particularly. Um, I'm a co-chair at the moment, and as one realizes, the Green Party is not subscribing to well, there's a lot there's a position that's different from the Republicans and the Democrats. And so we're sort of uh, I just felt frustrated by not being able to get any attention from the Democrats uh, and also from the Republican side. So my sense is there need to be another voice in local politics.
[00:41:20] Elaine: Elaine, you had a comment to make? Yeah, um you know, he did that call. He said he'd vote the article because he was trying to stir up people's um people to participating. And, you know, people are motivated to participate in government because of their beliefs and their values and needs and, you know, thank goodness our democracy allows for that.
[00:41:41] Elaine: And you know, I to me, I see this whole thing with what you are um upset about with coalitions and packs forming, I think that's a positive result of people wanting to participate in government. And I see that as positive, and I'm wondering, you know, you're calling for participation, do you have your own guidelines that, you know, you see people needing to participate under?
[00:42:08] Ira Rohter: Elaine, let me let me take that as a comment because somebody asked the same question, I think, in a different way earlier in the show, and and we've got a bunch of people waiting, but I I really appreciate uh your comment this morning.
[00:42:18] Randall Roth: Okay. We go to Carolyn from Makakilo. Good morning, Carolyn.
[00:42:22] Carolyn: Well, good morning, and how are you? And thank you for your very invigorating program this morning. Well, thank you. Thank you. I'd like to set the record straight, too, and I'm going to read to you right from, right, not from the Bible, but from from Webster's, which says that grassroots is ordinary people, especially as contrasted with the leadership or the elite. And I bring that to your attention because Mr. Hope continues to use the Hawaii Futures Today as grassroots when in reality, he disavowed any connection with the Mormon Church, but what about the Catholic Church when out in January, when we had that huge rally, talk about the ordinary people and talk about minorities.
[00:43:08] Carolyn: Everyone loves to say that that was such a huge rally in support of of traditional marriage. I am very much for traditional marriage. I've been married 32 years to the same person. I was married in the Catholic Church, I was remarried in the Catholic Church, our marriage was uh revalidated ever so often. And yet, those people were so anti gay that it was not funny.
[00:43:37] Randall Roth: Carolyn, let me let me let Jack Hoe react to to what he's listening to. And and you know, I know there there's certain words that that we fight over. Nobody wants to be called the radical right or the radical left, but everybody wants to be called grassroots. Uh, one of the things I'm hearing from Carolyn, Jack is that, um, your group, Hawaii's Future Today, represents itself as a grassroots organization, and again, one of her points is that it it really isn't grassroots. What's your reaction?
[00:44:06] Jack Hoag: Well, I think Carolyn and I we've met before. I think that if you were to go through that uh crowd, you would have seen young, old people from uh all the islands, uh blue collar people, we range from Kealakekua on the Big Island to Kauai. Uh, you know, the speakers there for instance, Charlene Kemma, Kanaka Maoli was uh invigorated that crowd with passion about their culture and how they want to protect the culture of of the islands. Uh, I think I think you'll find our membership is is very diverse.
[00:44:37] Randall Roth: Okay. So I think it's safe to say that that Carolyn and Jack simply disagree on the makeup of the Hawaii Futures Today group. Francis Oda.
[00:44:44] Francis Oda: In regard to that specific rally, I think there were people from many, many different churches, different denominations, and things like this. I'd like to go back to what Elaine, um Elaine, yes, was saying about or asking, uh whether uh Ira, you had a specific uh set of criteria for valid participation in this process. I think that's a pretty significant question.
[00:45:07] Randall Roth: And I think you you kind of asked that earlier when you said, is there a difference between this Con Con and the last Con Con?
[00:45:12] Francis Oda: Well, I [unintelligible — audio glitch] don't know if I got an answer, I guess.
[00:45:15] Ira Rohter: Yeah. Well, No, not in regard to the con cons, but the criteria for participant.
[00:45:19] Randall Roth: Well, I can answer the Con Con because I I thought about it and I've given some testimony.
[00:45:23] Francis Oda: Well, I'd like to have Elaine's question answered.
[00:45:26] Ira Rohter: Well, it [unintelligible — audio glitch] illustrates exactly what I mean. Um, some people, Terence Tom, your friend, would like to see 52 people elected, um, and not to have any controls on the um, uh campaign financing, a relatively quick campaign. Um, I spoke in favor of having six months prior to that, a League of Women Voters, whoever you want to to create a series of task force groups. It turned out they did this in 58, uh, after I had planned this, I somebody pointed this out to me, uh, that the citizens come together, study all of the issues, have a a basically a wide base community uh convention conference three or four days.
[00:46:07] Ira Rohter: Uh, out of that, you elect delegates who are well informed about all of these issues. Then there's a three month period where you ratify. That's to me, what I would call a grassroots kind of thing, with the opposite of which we now have. The governor, for example, has said, let's have an economic summit, uh let's keep the door closed. And he invites the same old suspects. It's not a public participation, it's not a round table where everybody would sit down and then make some decisions. That's what I would like to see. That's a very concrete proposal. We'll see what comes through the legislature.
[00:46:36] Randall Roth: This is this is Randy Roth again trying to take uh control back. Uh Carolyn, we drifted from your point, but I've got a bunch of people that I want to get to.
[00:46:45] Carolyn: Can I just say one more thing?
[00:46:46] Randall Roth: Wait just wait just a second. I want to explain to our listeners what's going on here. I've got some people I want to get to, so I'm going to give you the last word but just 15 seconds.
[00:46:53] Carolyn: Okay. The thing is, grassroots. Look at the people you have there today. They do not represent grassroots. They represent mainline churches or uh uh Catholic um Christian churches. Go back to that Jack Hoe as a regent at the University of Hawaii. He is not an ordinary person, nor is Mark Alexander. Those are your two main cohorts for the Hawaii Futures today. Do not have to remember.
[00:47:18] Randall Roth: Carolyn? Yes. You had 15 seconds, you took them and and you made your point well. Thank you. Thank you. Not that I agree, but she made her point quite clearly. Uh Pat in in Hawaii Kai, good morning, Pat.
[00:47:30] Pat: Uh, good morning. Thank you for the opportunity. Um, I don't consider myself a uh, member of the radical left, nor the radical right. I'm one of those
[00:47:40] Randall Roth: None of us none of us do, Pat. That's the that's the problem. We're all in the middle.
[00:47:44] Pat: Member of that vast middle. And but I guess the thing that troubles me a little bit is um, when you write letters, or if you go down to testify, or if you attend a rally, um, in favor of traditional marriage, both newspapers, and in particular one female reporter from KITV, immediately labels everybody as anti gay. And I'm just curious for for Mr. Hogue, what what is your organization doing to try and dispel this so-called labeling? Even though you're in favor of traditional marriage, you're immediately painted anti-gay. And a follow up question.
[00:48:26] Randall Roth: Let's let's get a quick answer to that one, Pat, and then I'll come back to you.
[00:48:30] Jack Hoag: The best thing we can do is is by our uh by our conduct. And for instance, when Randolph Terry wanted to come here to the islands, Operation Rescue, a very radical group, uh we and he is anti-gay. Yes, he's he's clearly anti-gay. We we wrote letters, facts and said, please don't come here. This is not what we're about. With local people, we can control our own destiny. Stay away from the islands. So we've tried to keep these outside forces away.
[00:48:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Pat, you had another point to make.
[00:48:56] Pat: Just a quick follow up, um with in light of this vast, silent middle ground, group of people, what is your organization doing to energize this group? A lot of noise gets on the left or the right, but it seems to me that this vast middle ground is going to determine this amendment. How are you doing What are you going to do to energize this group?
[00:49:17] Randall Roth: Quick, quick response from Jack. We going to educate the the public the best we can, word of mouth. We're going to try to organize people for voter registration. Let's get people out. Ira mentioned less than half the people vote. We want to get see a large majority of people vote and let the chips fall where they may. And we think we know what the mainstream is. So the more people who are voting, the more likely it is that that island values, whatever that means, are going to control. Right. Absolutely.
[00:49:41] Ira Rohter: Um, anybody runs a political campaign, you don't just go out and talk to everybody and then say, please register and so forth. You do that, but what you really want to do is you target the people who are sympathetic to your position and those are the folks who you do the second and third mailings and you do the door following and stuff like that.
[00:49:59] Ira Rohter: One of my comments was that all you have to do is throw $20, $25,000 into any local legislative race with professional organization and you can take that place. One of the things that the religious right does in the mainland, Ralph Reed has spoken about it, stealth campaigns. We do not answer public questionnaires, we do not appear in public. We simply organize uh underground and then boom, we take over. So that's part of the story. I was trying to suggest to people that this isn't going to be just universal registration, it isn't going to be universal education. It's going to be serious political organizing going on. And I I agree with this is really the problem.
[00:50:35] Ira Rohter: And I, do you know about the Interfaith Alliance foundation, which is made up of mainstream Christian churches, who are opposed to the orthodoxy position which is being advanced by the Christian Crusade and traditional values and so forth?
[00:50:48] Francis Oda: I don't know if any plan that is specifically um formulated like Ira is talking about here in Hawaii. And uh I wonder if Ira is just talking in general, or are you talking specifically? You seem to know that this is going to happen here.
[00:51:03] Randall Roth: Of course. Linda Rosehale is one of the heavy hitters. Linda is not here. I wish you'd invited Linda. I'd like to ask her what her involvement was in the last campaign. This is a former uh Democratic National Council woman, is an well-known uh political insider. And she's the one who who could probably tell us for example, which of the campaigns that you guys support. Who Where did the money come from? I I don't have the resources to do that, but large amounts of money political organizing took place. Six democrats, liberal democrats got wiped out in this last election, and I think they were pretty much because of the involvement on the same sex marriage issue.
[00:51:37] Francis Oda: Um, Ira, it sounds to me like, uh you know, you're making assumptions but have no facts to back them up. And um, I think uh despite uh how naive this sounds, it could very well be that people uh just because they feel a certain way, go out and support candidates, and uh they win, they literally win.
[00:51:57] Jack Hoag: Yeah, I I have to address that, Ira. If you look at the the incumbent Democrats, which is hardly ever happens in Hawaii, they got knocked over. Look who beat them. All grassroots. They had no big money behind them. Dave Pendleton, Bob uh uh McDermott, Mark Moses, uh Sam Aiona, outstanding young politicians that are up and coming, new faces, new philosophies, not just one issues. So uh, and there's there's others. Uh Norman Sakamoto, knocked over a powerful judiciary chair, and not just on one issue. He's a businessman, he's trying to energize the economy. So I think you've seen the grassroots work here. It wasn't from the outside, Ira.
[00:52:36] Randall Roth: Folks, we've got three people who've been waiting a long time and I'm going to try to get them before I give our guests an opportunity to [unintelligible — audio glitch] make some closing comments. So let's try to move real quickly through. First, Mike from Akiki. Good morning, Mike.
[00:52:48] Mike: Hi Randy, you wanted to get off the uh same sex issue and Ira is talking about agendas of these various organizations. Could you ask each of the three participants uh their group's position on uh uh school prayer and uh sex education in schools and I'll get off the phone and hear the answer on the radio. Okay.
[00:53:09] Randall Roth: Thank you, Mike. Let's start with you, Ira.
[00:53:12] Ira Rohter: Uh, I'll put my green hat on. Green Party is opposed to uh breaking down the barriers between church and state, uh is would be supportive of I'm thinking of the platform, uh sex education, AIDS education, not restricted to abstinence and things of that kind and the school prayer issue uh, I I can't I think it's the extent to which it's, you know, civil rights issue, you'd have to argue about it.
[00:53:36] Jack Hoag: Okay, Jack Hogue. Well, I pray regularly, especially before these programs, but Hawaii's Future Today has no position on those uh, so I don't think it's appropriate for me to answer as Hawaii's Future Today.
[00:53:45] Randall Roth: Okay, Francis, any thoughts?
[00:53:47] Francis Oda: Uh, I don't represent an organization that has a position on those.
[00:53:50] Randall Roth: Okay, we go to Lynn from Hamakua, the Big Island. Good morning, Lynn.
[00:53:54] Lynn: Good morning. No, I didn't say the Big Island, I said Hawaii. You guys are the little islands.
[00:54:01] Randall Roth: Oh, where did I put that? Oh, I I get you. Okay.
[00:54:01] Lynn: I'm calling mainly as a former officer of the Hawaii County Green Party just with a disclaimer that that the Green Party does not have a position in favor of same sex marriage and I just want to make that clear, but we also are very much in favor of free speech and therefore having Ira be there. And I didn't read his letter, but you know, that's pretty normal for Green Party and we do want participation from all levels and so, I just I just wanted to get that disclaimer in for anybody listening. Okay.
[00:54:31] Randall Roth: Well, don't lay that label on us. If I was a little bit smarter, I would have caught it when Ira said you're wearing your professor's hat and not your Green Party cochair hat. I think that's what you were telling us.
[00:54:39] Lynn: But the Green Party does not take that position.
[00:54:42] Randall Roth: Okay, thanks Lynn. Appreciate your call. We go to James in Honolulu, the little island. Good morning, James.
[00:54:47] James: Good morning. I uh, have so many things I'd like to comment on cannot, so I just wanted to focus. If the people who uh support the amendment to the constitution, and the bills that have been passed to give certain benefits to gays and lesbians, really felt they were pro gay or pro civil rights or equal rights, let them change places with us. Let Mr. Hogue and Mrs. Hogue have legal recognition only within the state of Hawaii. And when they leave Hawaii, they have no relationship at all. They don't have hospital visitation privileges or coke custody of children or whatever. Let them, let them trade places with us and see how equal they've given us.
[00:55:35] Randall Roth: James, you've made your point. Uh, very well. Appreciate your call.
[00:57:00] Jack Hoag: A lot of things are going to be lost and con-con coming up sometime in the future. I think it's very important for people to read, learn the issues, don't believe everything you read in the paper, do your research, talk to legislators.
[00:57:11] Jack Hoag: There are some fine legislators, now today I may have indicated, you know, some disdain, but actually people like Senator Randy Iwase, Terry Tom in the house and Joe Souki and as well and I know that doesn't agree with me, Bobby Bunda. These are people who have said, we should be making public policy. We're responsible to the people of Hawaii, not the courts. That's what's energized this whole debate and I'm sorry we spent so much time on it. I think it's important that the people have their voice heard through their elected officials.
[00:57:42] Ira Rohter: How does a person get involved? Most people don't feel individually they can go do the sorts of things you are describing. How does an individual who is listening to all of this, who really does have an urge to make a difference, but doesn't feel he or she can as an individual? How do you get involved in your opinion?
[00:57:59] Jack Hoag: Well, either get involved at the party level in the precincts and and or if they don't want to do that, go down the legislature, listen to what's happening, learn the issues, call your legislator. Most legislators have very polite and helpful staff that will talk to you. Help, they will help you find out where we're going in the state.
[00:58:18] Ira Rohter: Okay, last question. If somebody wanted to find out more about Hawaii Future Today or goodness sake even join it, how would they do that?
[00:58:27] Jack Hoag: The best thing to do would be call 536-2611 extension 2 and you'll get all the information you need.
[00:58:34] Ira Rohter: Okay, that's Jack Hoag. Ira Rohter, you started this a couple weeks ago with a very provocative piece in the newspaper. We've been talking for nearly an hour. What needs to be added, clarified, highlighted, whatever.
[00:58:47] Jack Hoag: Well, I think that one of one of my hats is a futurist and I was asking the question, where is Hawaii going in the year 2000 and beyond? Where we've been, we see. Um, what I'd like to see coming out of this is a a coalition of people who are going to study the issues and begin to say, what is really going on in Hawaii? And let's just not get bombarded as we see something here from the tourism bureau, you know, we have how we need gambling casinos. What I would like to suggest is that we, um, establish a statewide goal-setting program.
[00:59:16] Jack Hoag: I think people do need an opportunity. I I mentioned in my in my long regional essay about setting community goals and Oregon did this. The Oregon shines where they came together after long year or so, the community to find some basic goals, we had to do with preserving the economy and preserving the environment. They then set up what they call benchmarking. We have a process here. Kailau Hoku I, I suspect Francis is involved, I don't know if you're involved. I think it's a wonderful process here. And that's what we really need to do and get community and give people a place to sit at the table.
[00:59:46] Jack Hoag: To go down to legislature, you know, Linda Rosell has 500 times more power than I do to go down and have an impact and so forth. So we need to give a take set up a lot of tables and come up with what our community agrees upon and I my observation as 80% 80% of the time we all agree.
[01:00:03] Ira Rohter: Okay, Ira, if somebody wanted to get involved whether it's whether it's with Kaila Hoku or in some other way, how do they get involved with that specific movement or in some other way, how do they do it?
[01:00:17] Jack Hoag: Jeez, I don't know. Um, well, the call the governor and tell them the economic summit ought to be opened to everybody and not just his friends. Uh, I don't know. Community Services Council. Community Service Council, uh look in the phone book. Hawaii Community Services Council. Okay, Community community Services. I have 521-3861.
[01:00:38] Ira Rohter: Okay. Any other way that people ought to be getting involved?
[01:00:41] Jack Hoag: I think people should pay attention and I I come back to what I said for you for Pop. I think Pop should put the put out a voters guide as they've done in several states and ensure that everybody who's going to run in the primaries also fully divulge what their ideas are on a whole range of positions and I'm I'm hearing two people say yes, I will guarantee my group, let's get the Republicans and let's get the Democrats to do that, and just have a complete accurate voters guide. And then secondly, I think Pop could basically interrogate people and say, well, don't give me slogans.
[01:01:12] Jack Hoag: You know, great, I'm going to simplify government. I'm going to, you know, reduce government expense. Well which jobs are you going to cut, my friend? You're going to fire fire half the teachers. I think if we do that, I think we will be on the move towards a much more common time, you know, I call it Commonwealth society and that's what I think we really all want to see.
[01:01:30] Ira Rohter: Okay. I might add that there are some conversations going on right now about whether we should have a Pop-98 that might include for example, a voters guide and an interrogation as as you put it of the candidates and anybody who might be interested in getting involved in that. The number is 956-7386. Thanks for the opportunity, Ira. Francis Oda, you've got your 3 minutes or actually about 2 and a half. Go for it.
[01:01:53] Francis Oda: Well, I guess we're going to end with a level of agreement here because I sort of agree with what both other, both have said. We need to encourage involvement and uh one other things we need to do is I think encourage people of faith to become involved because, uh, where you use the term goals and I am familiar with that, uh, effort that you are, you were referring to, I I might say values. But certainly our goals are very much determined by our values and oftentimes the people who are very, um, strong about their values are people of faith and there are many other people who have very strong values. We have to try to encourage all of them to participate and to be informed committed citizens that really exercise this power that we all have to really make a difference here.
[01:02:40] Francis Oda: You know I spend part of my time and certainly our firm does throughout the Pacific area and the economic situation for example here in Hawaii is really pathetic and we are really far out there in terms of where the rest of the Pacific is going. We need to have intelligent kinds of discussions in terms of values that relate to economics, that relate to um, being able to reach out there beyond our grasp, to have visions that we can really believe we can accomplish. This is what our community needs and it's it requires the participation of all kinds of people, and I feel very much so people of faith.
[01:03:21] Ira Rohter: Very nicely said. Well, folks, that's it. This is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Our producer is Suzie Roth. The director of operations at public radio is Jeff Alardy. If you tuned in late and you'd like to catch the show in its entirety,