Drug Policy in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-05-17
Guests: Sam Vagenas (campaign consultant, Arizona Proposition 200); Pam Lichty (Vice President, Drug Policy Forum of Hawaii); James Aiona (Circuit Court Judge; founder of the Drug Court program); Iwalani White (First Deputy Prosecuting Attorney)
Duration: 1:05:27

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8:00 on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that encourages grassroots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion.
[00:00:38] Randall Roth: Our topic this morning has to do with drug policies here in Hawaii. For example, should we focus more on treatment or punishment? And what about the medicinal use of controlled substances? As I talked to a number of people about drug policies in Hawaii, an expression that I heard on several occasions was, was hodgepodge. That right now, in some instances, we seem to be looking in, in one direction, in other instances, another direction.
[00:01:07] Randall Roth: Our goal this morning is to find out a little bit better just what our drug policies in Hawaii are and, from a variety of experts with different points of view, try to get some sense for what our drug policies perhaps ought to be, if change is in order. Also, we hope to hear from a lot of our listeners as well. The guests that I have this morning are, first, Duke Iona, who is a graduate of UH Law School and the first drug court judge. We'll be hearing from him in just a few minutes.
[00:01:38] Randall Roth: Eva Lani White, who is the first Deputy Prosecuting Attorney. She also is a UH Law graduate and for some years was a Family Court Judge. We'll also hear from Matt Matsunaga, who is the co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Al Beaver, who is the chair of the Paroling Board and Paroling Authority, and Sam Vaghinis, who is the executive director of the National Council for Drug Control. Only Sam and Eva Lani are with me in the studio. Duke, Matt and Al are with us by phone. And I think we'll start this conversation by going to Duke Iona. Duke, can you hear me okay?
[00:02:17] James Aiona: Yes, I can.
[00:02:18] Randall Roth: Duke, as I understand it, you um, and you still are a circuit court judge, but you were the first circuit court judge assigned to the so-called drug court?
[00:02:27] James Aiona: Yes, I was.
[00:02:28] Randall Roth: Could you tell our listeners just a little bit about what the drug court is?
[00:02:33] James Aiona: The drug court is actually a uh, collaborative collaborative effort by uh the judiciary, the police, the prosecutors, public defenders, uh treatment providers, uh public safety, uh to address drug abuse and drug addiction within the criminal justice system. Uh the object of it obviously is to provide treatment, but along with it, to reduce uh prison overcrowding and hopefully and hopefully to cut down on recidivism uh with these um these what we call clients and what the uh the system would call defendants.
[00:03:12] Randall Roth: Duke, can you give our listeners just some sense for how you as the drug court judge might have approached something differently than it would otherwise have been approached in the absence of a drug court?
[00:03:24] James Aiona: You know that that was uh that was the whole reason behind of a drug court. It was just a uh I think a reaction to frustration um uh without um making comment on on the system itself uh [unintelligible — audio glitch] tools I had at my disposal were very limited and um something needed to be done that was maybe not creative but a little different from our our uh our everyday um traditional means of of uh dealing with people who have drug addiction or drug abuse as a problem and I really had none.
[00:04:01] James Aiona: So I I I can't answer that question because um I I had probation and jail and how do you treat or how do you uh how do you work that into someone who really uh has a drug abuse or drug um addiction problem?
[00:04:18] Randall Roth: How how should it be changed in your opinion?
[00:04:23] James Aiona: Obviously, my personal opinion is such that the problem lies in the in the beginning. In other words, when we when they get to us, it's we're at the end. We're in loading at that point in time. We need to front load, which I believe is with the schools, with the family, um and we need to educate and provide whatever type of treatment we can upfront or what type of education we can upfront.
[00:04:47] James Aiona: That's where the emphasis needs to be done needs to be made I think I should say, and it's only when we attack it from that point um that I will not see very many people on my end. In other words, coming into the system with uh these type of problems.
[00:05:03] Randall Roth: Do you think in so far as the back end is concerned, uh is there a better way to deal with the situation than what we are right now? In other words, we've got the the drug court and um at least there's a perception I think in the community that that was a step in the right direction. Are there some additional steps that perhaps should be considered?
[00:05:25] James Aiona: Well, obviously, um you know, incarceration is not the answer. Uh I I agree with that wholeheartedly. Um but there are instances um and you know drug court as you uh and I didn't get into that aspect of it, but drug court as a as a major tool uh as a major tool in as far as sanctions are concerned does use incarceration.
[00:05:54] James Aiona: Um obviously I believe though that you need consequences. Uh people who are addicted uh to drugs lack that type of uh control, they lack that type of discipline. And so uh all I can say is I'm I'm not I'm not I am not for uh decriminalization in the sense that um we we take away all all sanctions uh which would include prison. What I do believe that we cannot use prison as the answer uh to this problem that we have.
[00:06:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Duke, thank you very much for joining us this morning.
[00:06:30] James Aiona: Well thank you and I appreciate this opportunity. I wish I could have stayed longer, but I do have another commitment.
[00:06:35] Randall Roth: I understand. Thanks again. We go to Al Beaver. Al is the chair of the Parole Board and the Paroling Authority. Good morning, Al.
[00:06:44] Speaker 3: Good morning.
[00:06:45] Randall Roth: Al, why don't you start by telling our listeners a little bit about the difference between the Parole Board and the Paroling Authority and just what what your position is with respect to those two organizations?
[00:06:57] Speaker 3: Uh the parole board is um made up of three individuals and that's appointed by the uh the governor and this board sets the minimum of uh time that the individuals coming into uh the prisons uh that they have to stay incarcerated in the prisons. Okay? And they also will see these same individuals and consider them for parole to go back out into the community. Now the Paroling Authority is the arm uh more or less of the board that does the supervision of uh people who are being released to the community. And if they don't uh comply to the conditions of parole, then they're uh pulling back into prison.
[00:07:50] Randall Roth: Al, when you're making decisions on how long a person should stay in jail at a minimum, or decisions with respect to who should be paroled, uh, in what way does drug use or addiction or violations of drug laws play into your considerations?
[00:08:11] Speaker 3: Well, we're we're kind of uh like an extension of uh I just heard Duke Iona and uh we're at the back end of the uh system. We're we're going to first of all look at the seriousness of the crime and then look how the system has tried to work with this particular individual. And primarily by the time we see these people, they have failed uh either on probation, the drug court, or they have uh uh committed so many crimes that the uh system is saying, well it's time to, you know, put you in prison and teach you a lesson that you uh have to comply by the laws.
[00:08:53] Speaker 3: And at the same time, let's see if we can work with this individual while he's incarcerated or she is incarcerated.
[00:08:59] Randall Roth: Now, when you say seriousness of the crime, if a person has violated uh only drug crimes as opposed to theft or crimes of violence or what have you, they've they've used a a controlled substance, how serious a crime does the Parole Board consider that?
[00:09:18] Speaker 3: Well, we look at the numbers of uh offenses, you know, uh we'll see things uh like just a mere possession, but it may be uh uh multiple charges and it may be a long history of charges like this. Uh it may go back as 20, 30 years.
[00:09:39] Randall Roth: And and is the idea in terms of putting them in jail for a certain period of time, is it to protect society from them or is it to get them into a different setting where hopefully they can get off of drugs or just what is the thinking that goes behind that type of decision?
[00:09:56] Speaker 3: Well, it's a combination, you know, it's not only to protect society, but protect them from themselves. Um, they um, you know, these addicts uh get pretty serious and sometimes when they start getting uh drugs that make them violent, then uh, you need to do something about it. Okay. And and then while they're incarcerated, you try to set the minimum time they're going to be in prison with the time they're going to be uh needed for uh programs. And this is where the uh Parole Authority will work with the public safety and uh try to uh customize a program for an individual with whatever public safety provides.
[00:10:40] Randall Roth: Al, what else would you like to uh tell our listeners about your thoughts on drug policies in Hawaii?
[00:10:47] Speaker 3: Well, first of all, we need to support uh Keith Conishu and his new prison because with space, we can uh have uh more programs and get these people into programs and treat them. Uh regarding drug policies, I agree with uh Judge Iona. Uh our problem uh needs to be handled at the very front end, uh in education, uh uh when uh these when uh our people, you know, are very young, we should educate them about drugs and uh the the seriousness of it if they once they start taking it, you know, how the consequence of it.
[00:11:32] Speaker 3: And uh the other thing that we see, you know, uh that the board see is regarding uh why people get into drugs is multiple things, you know, lack of jobs, uh lack of communication between spouses, uh uh [unintelligible — audio glitch] great problem, and it's a community problem. Not only our legislatures, but uh everyone has to get involved.
[00:11:58] Randall Roth: Okay, Al, thank you very much for joining us this morning.
[00:12:01] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[00:12:02] Randall Roth: That was Al Beaver, who's chair of the Parole Board and Paroling Authority. Next up is Matt Matsunaga, who's the co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and the Judiciary Committee is the one that uh addresses matters relating to to prisons and and the law generally. Good morning, Matt.
[00:12:18] Speaker 4: Good morning, Randy.
[00:12:20] Randall Roth: Uh, the session is over. What what if anything did the legislature do this year that might relate to our topic this morning of drug policies in Hawaii?
[00:12:31] Speaker 4: Well, actually, Randy, I think one of the best bills that we passed this session is a bill uh mandating drug treatment for repeat offenders, and that was the um Drug Offender Treatment Act, uh House Bill number 2843. Uh, we did, however, it did get a little bit watered down in conference. Um, the Senate had passed out a very strong uh mandatory drug treatment bill uh requiring repeat offenders to go through this assessment and treatment. Um, when we got to conference, the House uh had actually passed just a study, and in negotiations, uh the House agreed to this bill provided that it was contingent upon the availability of necessary federal funding.
[00:13:20] Randall Roth: And is there going to be funding for this? I mean, it sounds like a great program to force people into treatment at a certain point in time, but isn't that going to be very expensive?
[00:13:31] Speaker 4: Well, it will be, and um, but actually in the long run, it'll save quite a bit of money. And um, we can do it by obtaining the federal funding, which is available. Um, I I've got a a whole uh page full of um federal funding that the state has not yet gone after. And we have um every indication to believe that the state um can obtain these funds.
[00:13:56] Speaker 4: You know, there's the substance abuse prevention and treatment block grant, which is about uh 6 million dollars allocated to Hawaii that we haven't gone after, the residential substance abuse treatment program for state prisons, which is about a $72 million grant that we can get a our share of. So there there's plenty of funds out there. We just have to make the effort.
[00:14:16] Randall Roth: So in the legislature, I guess it's it's safe to say the focus at least in in recent times has been on on treating drug addiction as opposed to the punishment side.
[00:14:26] Speaker 4: Well, that's that's kind of uh hard to say, Randy, because, as you know, we have um so many different legislators that make up the legislature. And so while some legislators may believe that treatment's the best way to go, others may not. I think it's fair to say that um, I'm I'm sorry, my daughter is um a little bit upset in the background here.
[00:14:49] Randall Roth: Well, I know now that the easy stuff in the legislature is over, you're you're back at the hard stuff and watching the kids.
[00:14:55] Speaker 4: Yeah, my wife's out of town and I have um my two daughters and one of them wants to go to Sea Life Park and the other wants to watch cartoons, so.
[00:15:04] Randall Roth: Well, sea Sea Life sounds good to me. Why don't you you finish up by telling us about this treatment versus punishment uh forking the road.
[00:15:13] Speaker 4: I think um my perspective is is very similar to what um Judge Iona and Al Beaver were talking about in that it's a no brainer. We have to get the treatment um we have to get them on the front end. And if they do have problems, it saves money to society by getting them treatment, but I think we also need the hammer over their heads to make sure that they're effective sanctions if they don't go through with the treatment. And that's why we do need um adequate prison space.
[00:15:42] Randall Roth: Okay. Matt, thanks a lot for joining us this morning.
[00:15:44] Speaker 4: Thank you, Randy.
[00:15:45] Randall Roth: That was Matt Matsunaga, co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Well, we've got two guests left and they're in the studio with me. Eva Lani White is the First Deputy Prosecuting Attorney, uh UH law graduate, former Family Court Judge. Eva Lani, what are your thoughts on drug policies in Hawaii?
[00:16:01] Iwalani White: Well, I think that any sane rational drug policy has to address three factors. One is you need to address the accountability of the defendant and this is where punishment has a place. Um, in addition, the victim's concerns also come into play here. That is, if um a theft victim has been has been um victimized, they would that's where restitution would come in. Also, in that area of accountability, um, we have now on the books a as I point out in the article written by uh my colleague, Tom Kanig, about the drug demand reduction assessment.
[00:16:42] Iwalani White: That makes the drug abuser pay for his own treatment. And if you spread it out over the term of a 5-year probation, that could only come out to $20 a month. So um, the accountability factor um needs to be taken uh into consideration as I said in any uh drug policy. Um, secondly is competency of the defendant, that is anybody going through the system must come out better than when they went in. And that is where the rehabilitation and treatment um uh component is. And not just any treatment, but good, effective treatment.
[00:17:19] Iwalani White: Um, sometimes it seems that there people get on bandwagons. There's a treatment bandwagon. All of a sudden, now there are a some a lot of people out there who are looking for federal or state dollars and so they will open up a treatment facility and sometimes that is being run by the HMOs. What will the HMO pay is exactly the length of their um rehabilitation program. I think we need to um look at what is working or has worked in other areas and keep on using those kind of facilities. The third thing component of any uh rational drug policy has got to be public safety.
[00:17:58] Iwalani White: And really I mention it last because it is of most importance. That is of paramount um importance that if public safety is going to be endangered by rehabilitation, then the rehabilitation should not occur.
[00:18:12] Randall Roth: So really, there isn't a choice between treatment and punishment, that they're they're both important components of an overall policy.
[00:18:20] Iwalani White: Yeah, I think so because you can't be too simplistic about this. It can never just be punishment or treatment because in um the real world, people get out of jail. So you need they got to be different when they come out than when they went in. Um and also it's a complex problem and so it requires a complex solution. We can't think in terms of black and white anymore. It's got to be less simplistic than that, and it has to really um there are multi-reasons for drug addiction and drug abuse. And so the measures aimed at at stemming it have to be just as complex and just as diverse.
[00:18:58] Randall Roth: Okay, that's even. lanni White and our last guest this morning is Sam Vagnis. Sam is the executive director of the National Council for Drug Control. Good morning, Sam.
[00:19:07] Sam Vagenas: Um, hi, my name is Sam Vagnis. I was also a campaign consultant for Proposition 200 which passed with 65.4% of the vote in Arizona. It was an over sweeping drug policy reform measure. It included a medical marijuana provision so everybody refers to as the medical marijuana initiative, but really it was a lot more. The the measure called for all drug possession offenders who are currently incarcerated for the immediate parole of them into to review by the parole board into treatment [unintelligible — audio glitch] parole.
[00:19:39] Sam Vagenas: It called for all first and second time drug possessures to be placed on probation and treatment instead of incarcerated. This is a mandatory provision, not an optional provision as in the drug court. It created a parents commission on drug prevention and it generated $15 million by earmarking the alcohol tax for drug treatment programs. I mean what's happening in America today is that everybody recognizes that our our drug war is failing. 65.4% of Arizonans voted no to the drug war. Our advertising explicitly said we know the drug war is failing. We're looking for a different way.
[00:20:17] Sam Vagenas: And this was a cause that was not led by a bunch of marijuana activists. Our co-chairs were former US Senator Barry Goldwater, former Republican candidate for and leading conservative and former US Senator Dennis DeConcini, who was asked to be the drugs or by George Bush. So these were these were people who had some experience in our national politics but just believed that our policies had been are so failing that we have to try something radically new.
[00:20:44] Sam Vagenas: And the only problem I have with some of the discussion in terms of it seems to me there's a lot of people in the criminal justice system who realize there is a paradigm shift, who realize our drug laws are failing, but are sort of talking the talk of treatment, but we need to walk the walk, and that's what Arizona does. We got to put the money up for treatment. We can't have 4,000 offenders as you have here in, you know, Hawaii, 86% according to the Department of Public Safety have drug abuse problems and only a couple hundred get into the drug court.
[00:21:12] Sam Vagenas: We've got to get the money there um basically so those people have treatment options.
[00:21:17] Randall Roth: Sam, let me make sure I understand what the folks in Arizona did. It was a proposition and by a large majority 65%, it passed and as I understand it it basically said to simply use controlled substances is is not going to be a crime. But if you commit a serious crime while you're on drugs, then that's going to be treated very very seriously. Harsh punishments.
[00:21:43] Sam Vagenas: There was one provision in the in the measure that called for violent drug offenders would have to serve 100% of their sentence. They already serve 85 under truth in sentencing. Um essentially that was a minor component in terms of the trade offs in terms of creating a prison space for violent offenders is what really moved the initiative. Um the uh for example, there was a commercial with uh a rape victim who talked about the fact that um her uh offender had been released in a year. I mean the the prison overcrowding problem is terrible in Arizona, as it is uh for my from what I understand here in Hawaii.
[00:22:20] Sam Vagenas: So um, you know, essentially this was an alternative, uh people were looking at the cost of of reducing crime, the cost of uh jail space and they decided this was a much better way to go.
[00:22:32] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. Our topic this morning is drug policies in Hawaii. With me in the studio right now is Ivelanni White, the first Deputy Prosecuting Attorney here in Honolulu and Sam Vagnis, who's the executive director of the National Council for Drug Control. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. Or if you're on a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. Again, our topic is drug policies in Hawaii and the number here on Oahu is 955-8821. Well let's start with Glenn from the Big Island. Good morning, Glenn.
[00:23:14] Speaker 3: Hi. Thanks for thanks for taking my call.
[00:23:16] Randall Roth: You bet.
[00:23:17] Speaker 3: I'd like to say aloha to Sam. Really proud of what you did over there. Um, I'm a medical marijuana patient. I just endured 6 hours of back surgery last year. They removed a bone from my spine. I've got degenerative disc disease. The doctors prescribed for me about half a pharmacy including a number of addictive opiates. The side effects include extreme constipation, migraine, headache, dizziness, insomnia, and central nervous system collapse. When I smoke marijuana or I eat a bite of a marijuana brownie about an hour before bed, I sleep well, I wake refreshed and I spend the next day able to work without any side effects. It kills my pain.
[00:23:55] Randall Roth: Let's get a reaction to that uh Glenn. First, Sam.
[00:23:58] Sam Vagenas: Well, I mean, uh, I agree. Marijuana is medicine. Uh, it can be used as medicine and the New England Journal of Medicine has stated that, the American Public Health Association has endorsed medical marijuana. But it is another case where we have totally failing drug policies where basically the government fails to acknowledge, just as in the case of treatment, the truth. The truth is that our drug offenders should not be locked up. We should not have drug gulags. The the truth is that medical marijuana can help people relieving their suffering, but yet the government turns the other way.
[00:24:34] Sam Vagenas: I mean, even our drug, for example, in area of treatment, he talks about treatment all the time now. He talks the talk, but if you look at the the budget, only 20% of our $18 billion drug budget goes to to treatment, only 12% prevention, 68% goes to law enforcement and you know uh interdiction.
[00:24:52] Randall Roth: Sam, I may have this wrong, but I think I read something that under the law in Arizona that a physician can prescribe not just marijuana but any controlled substance including I guess in theory, heroin and and LSD. Is is that an accurate statement of the law in Arizona?
[00:25:09] Sam Vagenas: That's that is been said by our opponents. Essentially, the the reference is not just marijuana, but schedule one drugs. The caveat is that they has to have to document scientific research. The only schedule one drug that we believe that the scientific research is out for would be in this case marijuana. There's a natural safety valve through law enforcement because all the prescription does is serve as a legal defense. So in in other words, if a doctor was to go and prescribe some bizarre drug, I mean, it would there there would be natural safety valve to the law enforcement process.
[00:25:40] Randall Roth: Ivelanni, any comments uh to what you're hearing right now?
[00:25:47] Iwalani White: Well, I from a prosecutor's viewpoint viewpoint, okay. Um and also, I've just recently become acquainted um through some of the literature that Dr. Harold Hall has acquainted me with on ICUs and this state. We have a very bad crystal methamphetamine problem and that his research and the the research there has shown that um that there's a thing or a uh um some mechanism called cross reverse tolerance. When people who are long-term ice users or ice users for a period of time, if they were to stop and say if they were to smoke marijuana instead, that they would um that could recreate the psychosis that was originally created by the ice.
[00:26:30] Iwalani White: So for those reasons, I [unintelligible — audio glitch] convinced that marijuana is harmless, number one. Number two is, unless the people of this state have said um clearly through the legislature that they are want this uh want to follow whatever zone he has done. As far as having some sort of safety valve there where medical doctor would subscribe it under certain very limited circumscribed uh uh circumstances, then um, as a prosecutor, I'm I'm bound to enforce the law and as it is now and the things that I have uh learned, um I don't know if I I'm skeptical.
[00:27:08] Sam Vagenas: Well, I guess I I just don't think people like Glenn should be in our in our prison system, whether there's a law on the books or not. And um under federal law, all the states can do is exempt them from state law. Um essentially, I think that the medical marijuana issue is a part of the overall um issue which is basically the failure of our drug laws. The fact that our government cannot own up to the truth about drugs, which is that basically marijuana is medicine and and that that these people should not be in the prison system.
[00:27:39] Sam Vagenas: I have a little bit different attitude. I don't think I mean millions of people get break uh they're smoking habits and and break their drinking habits and uh tobacco and alcohol are much more addictive drugs than marijuana. And yet, there's no threat of a hammer there. Uh we just got to get out of this incarceration lens. We can't have a trickle down effect. We have to have a, you know, a gush of treatment money and treatment dollars.
[00:28:02] Randall Roth: I I I guess my question that I I wanted to ask earlier and and I didn't very well is, do we draw a line someplace? In other words, out here, there seems to be a a great deal of concern uh by people who see the the damage that it it creates about crystal meth, uh sometimes called ice. And and I know little or nothing about it but is that something that also should be permitted, um or or or or do we draw a line someplace, Sam?
[00:28:30] Sam Vagenas: Well, I think that [unintelligible — audio glitch] there was a justice department study done and it showed that the only drug that they can actually correlate with violence is alcohol. Some 60% of the murders are done by people who are under the influence of alcohol. Um, so I think we need to look at alcohol very seriously. But the one drug that they did mention is methamphetamine as as they said if there was a preexisting psychosis or something like that, you know, as you were saying. So, so in other words, that they they that is a drug, you know, that they may look to look at as an exception.
[00:29:02] Sam Vagenas: But overall, what I'm trying to say is we we have to have a paradigm shift. We're basically living still in the shadows of the drug war even though that a lot of our policy makers are are talking. A Casa came out recently, which is a strong anti-drug group, uh in the traditional anti-drug, and they said we should end mandatory minimums. But you know, people are just talking the talk. I mean, the question I guess I have for our colleagues here is where are we going to get the money for treatment? And [unintelligible — audio glitch] will they, you know, I mean that's really the question.
[00:29:29] Sam Vagenas: In Arizona, we got it from uh cost savings on and and on diverting prisoners and by earmarking the alcohol tax and, and I realize you have a very tight fiscal situation here. Um, you know, would they be willing to support asset forfeitures instead of subsidizing police departments [unintelligible — audio glitch] enforcement efforts being used for for drug prevention and treatment, those kinds of questions.
[00:29:48] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Glenn, you started this and I took it off in a far direction, but, uh anything to add to your original comments before we move on? I guess I guess what I'd add is that in California and in Arizona, um what I'm doing is fine.
[00:30:02] Speaker 3: In Hawaii, with what I've got on me for my medicine right now, I can do 10 to 20 years.
[00:30:07] Randall Roth: Okay.
[00:30:08] Speaker 3: And I want Ivalanni to think about that and see if she really wants to put me in jail for that.
[00:30:12] Iwalani White: Maybe add a buy a ticket, go to Arizona.
[00:30:15] Sam Vagenas: Until we have examined our policies.
[00:30:19] Speaker 3: Ivelanni, this is my home. Aloha, girl. This is my home.
[00:30:24] Randall Roth: Thank you, Glenn. Aloha. Appreciate your call. We go to David on Maui. Good morning, David.
[00:30:29] Speaker 5: Hello. Uh I have uh a lot of um concern with this but mainly I would like to ask um what is the actual lawful process that these statutes have gone through? When you look around and see the fact that the legal drugs, the ones that you tax and make money on are the worst ones and the ones that are illegal are the most beneficial for our spiritual and material well-being. It's hard to believe you in anything that you have to say because, you know, just saying no to hypocrites is one of my philosophies.
[00:31:22] Speaker 5: And uh so basically, how can you have a policy that's so capricious and and so, uh, judgmental and one-sided and and um, vindictive?
[00:31:34] Randall Roth: Uh, let's get a reaction from anybody.
[00:34:52] Sam Vagenas: Why I I it's interesting because essentially we got hit from both fronts. I mean, you you uh the libertarians in Arizona, the prosecutors and the law enforcement types were saying, this is the end of civilization and uh the libertarians were saying, no, this doesn't go far enough, we want to legalize it. Um and essentially we were getting hit from from both sides. And um, you know, basically, uh we follow a a philosophy of medicalization and believe that our our drug policy is being polarized in the wrong direction. It shouldn't be drug war versus, you know, selling methamphetamine in 7-Eleven. There is a metal medical alternative. Drug abuse is a disease.
[00:35:31] Sam Vagenas: You know, this this cannot be won as a war. This was a the drug war was a war we would have court martial [unintelligible — audio glitch] you know, the general long time ago. A GAO study came out just a few months ago saying that interdiction has no effect in terms of reducing the demand for drugs in this country. We need a different strategy, but we can't just talk about treatment and talk about drugs. We just need to really invest the resources, really change our sentencing guidelines so that we pursue that strategy.
[00:36:01] Randall Roth: Okay. David, thanks for your call this morning.
[00:36:04] Speaker 5: Well, I'd like to have the other guest answer that question. Uh Doug's on my side and and we understand each other, but uh, you know, I I can't understand how he's in the minority. And I mean, he's basically coming from a true viewpoint. These other people are coming from pure extortionism. They're actually the criminals. They're the ones that are perpetuating a false concept in the name of law. And it's impeding our spiritual evolution. And it's very important to uh eliminate this kind of uh of Nazi consciousness from from our our attitude in order to get onto the next paradigm.
[00:36:41] Randall Roth: Okay. David, I'm I'm going to take that as a comment and we appreciate your call this morning.
[00:36:46] Speaker 5: Well answer my question. That's all. What is the lawful process?
[00:36:50] Randall Roth: Well, there there are laws on the on the books, David. I I the question is whether there there should be or not is is what we're talking about and how the law should read, but as as a professor in a law school, I can tell you that there are laws on the books.
[00:37:02] Speaker 5: Those are statutes.
[00:37:03] Randall Roth: I understand.
[00:37:04] Speaker 5: And and the laws come before those statutes coming from our creator, which Thomas Jefferson acknowledged in the Constitution. Okay. And if you're a lawyer, you should know all these things. The Bill of Rights is here for everybody. Pot smokers and farmers. And whatever, as long as you don't harm people, you haven't committed a crime.
[00:37:22] Randall Roth: Okay, David. I appreciate your call. I really do, David. I appreciate it a lot. We've got some people who have been waiting on the line and and we're going to get to them. Thank you. We go to John from Maui. Good morning, John.
[00:37:33] Speaker 6: John from Maui, are you there? I'm here.
[00:37:36] Randall Roth: Um, thank you for waiting. It's your turn.
[00:37:39] Speaker 6: Aloha. Uh, a very interesting conversation this morning. Uh, the a few comments, I I teach high school in Maui, and I have opportunity to work with many young people who would, um who are drug uh users, and what David had said is a very interesting comment because
[00:38:00] Speaker 1: it is difficult to tell young people that they should not participate in this kind of behavior without having any real, strong reason to do so without feeling like you're a hypocrite for doing it. The other thing that I wanted to talk about is that-
[00:38:18] Randall Roth: Well, John, do you feel like a hypocrite when you tell them not to do drugs?
[00:38:22] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, absolutely.
[00:38:23] Randall Roth: And why is that?
[00:38:24] Speaker 3: Well, I've been, you know, I'm a child of the 60s and leave it at that.
[00:38:30] Randall Roth: Okay.
[00:38:31] Speaker 3: Um there are millions of Americans who are [unintelligible — audio glitch] people on the criminal justice system see the people who are irresponsible users and abusers, and unfortunate people who are probably who are mostly poverty stricken people. But us, we who are responsible users, have been doing so for most of our lives and we're we're always one step away from becoming criminals because the laws are so irrational and ridiculous.
[00:39:08] Randall Roth: John, let let me ask Eva, and stay on the line, John. But I want to ask Eva Lani, if somebody is is picked up for for possession of of marijuana, let's say, or some other controlled substance, but they've not committed any crime beyond possession, is that something that's going to get prosecuted? I because the impression I have is that that it probably isn't, but maybe I'm wrong.
[00:39:35] Speaker 4: Well, depends on the amount of the marijuana that you have on you when you are arrested and um it starts out of the petty misdemeanor, you go to jail for less than 30 days. A lot of time, it's deankable or dagable, that is, you can defer acceptance of the guilty plea. You can do the treatment thing, the case can be dismissed.
[00:39:54] Randall Roth: Also, what you're saying is that it is it is taken seriously, even if it's a small amount, it can result in prosecution and some form of punishment including the possibility of incarceration.
[00:40:04] Speaker 4: Yes, and sometimes no incarceration at all and treatment, but it's um one, it's fully discretionary with the court. Um, secondly, that the um uh if if the people of this state, as I said earlier, feel differently and want to change the law, then they need to do it. But until then, my job is to enforce the law. Um, I have children and yes, alcohol is a drug and so is so is cigarettes.
[00:40:37] Speaker 4: Um, I don't feel like a hypocrite to tell my children that doing drugs is wrong. I don't have alcohol in my house. Um, I tell the children not to smoke. It's a matter of doing and telling them what is good for them. And I am never going to be convinced that doing ice is ever going to be good for anybody, not after the stuff that I have learned about it.
[00:41:00] Speaker 4: Um there is nothing hypocritical about our laws as they are now set because they are the voice of our of the people of this state. And if things need to be changed and don't get me wrong, I am in agreement with uh my fellow um person in the room. Sam Vagenas? Yes, Mr. Vagenas, because I we strongly support the drug court. Now, Judge Aiona did not have an opportunity to fully explain what the drug court system was all about.
[00:41:33] Speaker 4: We enjoy high success rates as a result of that program. Any non-violent offender with a B or C that is not a mandatory class A felony, who has an admitted drug problem and wants treatment, has been assessed as appropriate, he or she will be eligible for the drug court program, under which he will get he or she will get extended probation, uh five years, intensive supervision, they come to court often, the probation officers are highly involved with them and with their treatment. And as a result of this, we're enjoying high success rates. Now, this would encompass your marijuana user, this would encompass um people who have mine who who commit offenses which are not even drug related, but who say they did it because of the drugs, they can go into a drug court program.
[00:42:26] Randall Roth: Let let me ask John who's on the line from Maui. John, I I guess you would say you don't think smoking marijuana is something that that needs treatment.
[00:42:34] Speaker 3: Absolutely not.
[00:42:35] Randall Roth: And I guess that's kind of the bottom line disagreement there.
[00:42:38] Speaker 3: The difference between our the what what she is saying and what I'm thinking, what I what I feel and what I've experienced all my life is between night and day. And I guess the question I really want to ask Glenn is, you know, how can we start doing the same thing here?
[00:42:54] Randall Roth: Okay, and it's Sam Vagenas, who's from Arizona. That's okay. And John, thank you for your comment and give uh Sam an opportunity to respond but then I do have to move on.
[00:43:03] Sam Vagenas: Aloha. Two things is there was a drug prevention component of Proposition 200, um which was very old and very alternative approach. And instead of scaring kids with these uh fried egg commercials, we created a parent's commission. All the data shows that the nexus between parents is a very important um variable in determining uh drug prevention and rather than leaving uh drug prevention to police officers, we're creating mentoring programs where counselors work with parents and kids. And different parents have different normative assessments too, such as the caller. And I think that that has to be factored into it. But I think it's a lot like uh, you know, sex education. I mean, if you teach just abstinence uh in that area, I mean, no one, no school teaches that anymore. They take a real realistic approach and what we need in in drug prevention is a real drug politique. We need to look at it realistically. We have to realize that there that there there's a very good chance that these people might try drugs in some cases and make them know the distinction between marijuana and methamphetamine. Um, I still think that um, you know, the the essentially the difference between the Arizona program is that for all drugs, for drug possession, it is mandatory treatment or drug education, which means that something in the case of marijuana would be less severe in terms of it wouldn't be put in a treatment program, it'd be more like a like a driving course type thing. Um, that so in other words, there there is no stick essentially. And I'd like to ask uh Evelina, I mean, millions of people kick smoking and alcohol, and by all the data, those are much more, with the exception of heroin or methamphetamine, those are much more addictive drugs. And in the case of alcohol, much more dangerous drugs. How do we do this without a stick? Why do I mean where where does the stick come into play?
[00:44:58] Speaker 4: Well, I guess traditionally, alcohol, we try, um, has is just, it's an accepted drug in this, in our society. Um, I don't know, as far as what research I know of, I am never I am not convinced and I will not tell my children there is an acceptable level at which they can get loaded on marijuana or on alcohol or on any other drug. Unless they are ill, and in order to help them, the doctor prescribes it for them. I only have aspirin in my house. I don't have anything else.
[00:45:33] Randall Roth: In case you tuned in late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about drug policies in Hawaii. Earlier in the show, we heard from Duke Aiona, who is the first drug court judge here in Hawaii, Al Beaver, who's the chair of the parole board and paroleing authority, and and Matt Matsunaga, who's the co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee. More recently, you've been hearing just from Eva Lani White, the first deputy prosecuting attorney here for the City and County of Honolulu, and Sam Vagenas, who's the executive director of the National Council for Drug Control and somebody who is quite active in Arizona's Proposition 200, which they've been talking about. Well, we're down to the last 19 minutes or so. We've got some people who have been waiting patiently but you might be able to get on yet if you want to try us at 955-8821 or from a neighbor island 1-800-955-8821. We go next to Roger from the Big Island. Good morning, Roger.
[00:46:27] Speaker 6: Hey, Pocolo Aloha, everyone. We I am a religious practitioner of cannabis hemp and I live on the Big Island and we have a have a church that's organized to keep people that use the herb uh from being prey to the war on drugs. And a couple ways that we do that, we provide identification cards that that identify ourselves as religious practitioners and we we list the citations in the Bible and in the law where it it shows us where we can certainly use the the herb for our for our sacrament. Uh for instance, we we consider cannabis as the burning bush, as the plant of renown mentioned in the Bible, to take away all our hungers and the shame of our persecutors. We consider it to be the tree of life, the leaves of which will heal all the nations.
[00:47:17] Randall Roth: Roger, let let me ask Eva Lani, our prosecuting attorney, again, not to say you're wrong or that you're right. From the prosecuting attorney's point of view, how relevant or irrelevant is it to you, Eva Lani, that this might be a part of somebody's religious beliefs?
[00:47:36] Speaker 4: Um, from my viewpoint it's irrelevant, um, because our law is clear that if religious beliefs conflict with existing statutes, then there will be no accommodation made for the beliefs.
[00:48:09] Randall Roth: Eva Lani, in your in your experience, uh, do the judges tend to approach it the way you've just described your approach, or as Roger has has suggested with his comments?
[00:48:21] Speaker 4: Uh, courts are courts of law and uh so they approach it the same way that I do. I mean that the Utah experience has taught us that.
[00:48:32] Randall Roth: Uh, Roger, hang on. I'll come back to you. Sam Vagenas.
[00:48:35] Sam Vagenas: Yes, actually in Arizona, that that's not the case. Uh, this is not a prop 200 uh thing but native Americans on the reservation can use peyote as part of their religious ceremony and that was done through a federal waiver. I mean the federal government actually signed off on that.
[00:48:59] Speaker 4: I mean, Native Americans are different because, one, it's on a their own reservation. They're not there they're subject to different laws. So that is hardly um the same as Mr. Roger on the Big Island.
[00:49:32] Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm on my reservation and it's and it's this whole beautiful green earth. And we have a I can be reached at Pacoloha at gte.net. I'd be happy to email this information to anyone in the state. It has already worked under a arrest conditions numerous times where we'd been released when we showed our documents to the arresting officer and we are not prey to the war on drugs anymore.
[00:50:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Roger, I'd also like to mention that the fully informed jury association has a way for people in the in the state of Hawaii need to know that if they get impaneled on a jury on a drug case and they don't like the law, they can vote not guilty based on their heart and their conscience and the law be damned. Okay, Roger, appreciate your call this morning. We go to Sean from Waikiki. Good morning, Sean.
[00:50:32] Speaker 7: Oh, good morning, Aloha, everyone. Um, thank you for having me on the show. I went to Holland back uh from 1980 to 1982. I went to Amsterdam. It is so cool over there because you can buy marijuana in small amounts over there and you are not treated like a criminal over there. It is so great. But over here in the United States, supposedly the freest country in the world, you smoke a little marijuana, you're you're a criminal and I think the laws are so despicable and so hypocritical. I it's crazy. I mean, I'm an Air Force veteran. I mean, I fought for this country and now you and you know, these law enforcement people, Eva Lani White and all these law enforcement people are telling me what I can smoke and what I can't. While, you know, some of these lawmakers can go and drink alcohol. You know, this this war on drugs is just absolutely crazy. It's spending billions of dollars. It's actually made made life hell for many people here in the United States. Uh it's despicable. I just hope we get some new thinking, you know, where people would start, you know, re-examining the war on drugs because it's just despicable. Oh, and let me just make one more last comment about Holland. Teenage drug use in Holland is only 50% of that of the United States. So go figure.
[00:51:55] Randall Roth: Okay, Roger, thanks for your call. We or that was Sean from Waikiki. Now we go to Tom on Maui. Good morning, Tom.
[00:52:22] Speaker 8: Hi. How are you doing?
[00:52:44] Randall Roth: Just fine, you're on the air, Tom.
[00:52:46] Speaker 8: Okay. Um, I just wanted to give my point of view from the perspective of someone who's been in recovery for a number of years. Um, I started smoking dope as a kid growing up on the Big Island and you know, it never led me anywhere other than in into other things, into drinking, into other drugs. I feel that all drugs have a purpose but the real problem is the disease of addiction and there are so many people who have the disease of addiction and won't face it or don't even know anything about it that you know that that's the real problem. It's not the drugs the drugs are just a symptom of the disease of addiction. Okay. So, anyway, that was all I wanted to put in there.
[00:53:38] Randall Roth: Appreciate your call, Tom. We go to Nick on Maui. Good morning, Nick.
[00:53:43] Speaker 9: Good morning.
[00:53:45] Randall Roth: Good morning, you're on the air.
[00:53:47] Speaker 9: Yeah, uh excellent show as always, Randy, and uh a lot of the calls have been coming in saying pretty similar things. So, a specific point that hasn't been addressed too much is the fact that though it was alluded to is that there's a lot of uh police out there and firemen and doctors and lawyers and professionals and teachers who have participated in uh the use of uh illegal drugs who are competent, have employment, are members of society with no problem. And your discussion, you notice all the law enforcement people and all the professionals you have on your show, always go back to the seriousness of uh ICE and how bad ICE is. But they slough over the idea that marijuana and other less harmful drugs are used recreationally, peyote have been used for centuries without any problem. So, it's like the discussion on gambling between lottery and um and uh shipboard gambling or casino gambling. So again, the discussion is good but unfortunately federal rules and regulations dictate a lot of the illegal drugs need to be uh people incarcerated and so some kind of discussion needs to be moved on how that gets altered because, like Arizona and California, you see the federal government overrules those uh very enlightened movements. And so, how do we move to enlighten people that the drug war is just like uh is a policy that's being done by cigarette and alcohol companies and people who are in legislatures who are just unenlightened to the facts and the truth of recreational drug use.
[00:55:09] Randall Roth: Okay. Nick, thank you very much. That was Nick on Maui. We go to Mike in Manoah. Good morning, Mike.
[00:55:36] Speaker 10: This is Michael. Just like to make a comment for Evelani and find out when she's going to her office is going to order the HPD to line up in front of every Christian church in our community who knowingly serves a controlled substance to their community that can serve less than 21 years old.
[00:55:59] Randall Roth: I guess you're talking about wine.
[00:56:01] Speaker 10: Alcohol, it's a controlled substance, is it not in our society, uh Evelani?
[00:56:06] Speaker 4: Uh no, it's not a controlled substance.
[00:56:09] Speaker 10: It is controlled by state law. It is to minors.
[00:56:12] Speaker 4: Yes, yes, that's true.
[00:56:14] Speaker 10: Then why don't we arrest all those people today who are taking the sacrament at the Christian churches?
[00:56:18] Speaker 4: Thank you for sharing. Tell me why we don't. There's a good reason why we don't, right?
[00:56:24] Speaker 10: Good Tell us. The legal, but why don't we?
[00:56:26] Randall Roth: I think she's waiting for you to tell us, Mike.
[00:56:28] Speaker 10: No, I well, maybe she must know. She's the enforcing the rules here. Thank you very much.
[00:56:33] Randall Roth: Thank you Mike. Appreciate your call and and in Eva Lani's defense, Eva Lani is doing her job. She didn't make the rules. Uh Eva Lani, do you want to add anything?
[00:56:43] Speaker 4: No.
[00:56:44] Randall Roth: Okay. We go to Willie on Oahu. Good morning, Willie.
[00:56:48] Speaker 11: Good morning. Uh I'm calling about um one of the most um lethal drugs, um is you can buy over the counter, which is alcohol, um uh marijuana, which uh some states uh such as the Commonwealth of Kentucky are proposing to legalize it so that they can help out with taxes and other things that we need. I think what is happening here is we're having big drugs coming in from Colombia and these other places, which are chemicals which really uh distort um the minds of not only our youth, but of older people. And there should be some uh um more force used in order to control these than to bother with marijuana, which could also be a big help to the state and Hawaii's economy. I mean, you can ask around the world and everybody knows about Maui Wowie and all this. If it was controlled and legalized, you could bring in taxes just like others. And alcohol is the main cause of most of the deaths on the road and so forth. So, why don't they look at a form of legalization that would help the economy, rather than spend all of this money on stuff that does nothing for it?
[00:57:00] Speaker 1: uh chemical dependence, and I know almost everyone in our community, everywhere I turn, they've had someone in their family who's had a problem or have been affected by it or have been victimized as as a burglary or some other way.
[00:57:09] Randall Roth: Okay. Willie, thank you very much for your call. We've got some more people who have been waiting patiently and we for sure want to hear from them. We go to Mahe Lani in Honolulu. Good morning, Mahe Lani.
[00:57:13] Speaker 1: So I mean the cost of of the drug problem in our community is extensive and and rather than look at how we can make it easier for people to use drugs, I think we should be looking at what's a more cost-effective way of dealing with the issue of this illness.
[00:57:20] Speaker 12: Good morning. I was uh concerned that the that at the way this conversation turned into somewhat of a justification for people uh people's dependence or use of all kinds of substances, you know, to me as an escape, and I really hate. I know that the underlying reason for revisiting the whole issue of drug uh handling of of of chemical dependence in our community is because there is a uh sickness in our community. We are all touched by the cost of of uh drugs and their impact on human beings, and our family has had problems with with
[00:57:27] Speaker 1: It is an illness. It is we're not talking about alcoholism, per se, although that's an illness, too. We're talking about what the cost of of treating drugs versus incarcerating people is doing in our community, and it's costing us big bucks to to build bigger and big bigger and bigger prisons, and are are we using that money most efficiently? And I don't think we're using it efficiently if we're throwing everybody into the most difficult penal systems possible instead of finding a distinction, you know, separating those as as Iona was saying earlier, separating those who are really not doing any physical harm to someone and just getting them cleaned up so that they're no longer doing drugs.
[00:58:00] Speaker 2: Okay. Mahailani, I'm going to get a reaction from uh Sam Veginis.
[00:58:13] Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you made that point. Essentially, uh in Arizona, the reason why 65.4% of the voters voted for because it was they saw it as as a as a middle strategy between legalization and our failed drug war. Uh the you're right, treatment does work, and and to the extent we get that message out, it's very important because it's extremely cost-effective. The uh Rand uh uh Corporation did a study and they found that treatment was 23 times more effective in reducing cocaine consumption than source country control, and uh 7.3 times more effective than domestic law enforcement.
[00:58:47] Speaker 3: A study from California shows that uh with a with a controlled sample that uh as a result of treatment, drug sales dropped by 68%, break and entering dropped by 61%, selling sex dropped by 54%, and the use of weapons physical force by 75%. So the question is, why are 90% of our offenders uh in prison who have abuse problems, drug abuse problems and only a fraction, a few percentile uh getting you know outpatient treatment programs. That's the question.
[00:59:17] Speaker 3: I think until we make a serious commitment, not just talk the talk as our drugs are, many law enforcement officials, but actually walk the walk, we're not going to see much change in that. We need a new paradigm here.
[00:59:27] Speaker 2: Hey. Mahailani, thank you for your call this morning. We just have time for one more caller and then we're going to give our guests an opportunity to give us some closing remarks.
[00:59:37] Speaker 4: Frank in St. Louis. Good morning, Frank. Oh, thank you. I want to make the point very clearly. I wonder if it's ever uh is it said enough? I think there's a big difference between a use and abuse. And the way I would define uh a use and not abuse is that you're not hurting anyone, you're not hurting your health, you're you're uh able to keep up your professional life, and you're not damaging your uh important relationships. And that if this is taken to into consideration, then uh it seems to me we can have a wider consideration of the uh use or abuse.
[01:00:27] Speaker 2: Okay. Thank you for your call. We're down to the last few minutes. Um Ihalani, I think everyone seems to agree that treatment should be at least available to people who do suffer from any form of addiction, I guess. And yet we know that that can be terribly expensive, we know that the state is in uh a real fiscal crunch and programs are being cut right and left.
[01:00:53] Speaker 2: I I'm not under the impression that as a practical matter much more money, if any more money is going to be diverted to treatment in the near future. What if anything do you think should be done to somehow improve the situation in Hawaii as it relates to our drug policies?
[01:01:11] Speaker 5: Well, one, um either pay now or pay later. That's that's how we look at it. Now, even though it may seem from from some of these very strange calls you've been getting this morning that um I am not we are opposed to treatment that is not necessarily true. As I said, um treatment is in is important, and it is worth the money because we're already paying the costs now. You got people who are who are unemployed who go out and commit crimes in order to support their habit, but they're already getting welfare payments or SSI because if you are drug addicted, you are disabled.
[01:01:46] Speaker 5: So we're paying for the drugs anyway. We may as well turn around and turn that money into paying for the treatment, and then have productive, healthy individuals who can go on and have healthy, productive lives.
[01:02:00] Speaker 3: Well, all I can say is that uh it's too bad that Hawaii doesn't have an initiative process because I think the vote wouldn't be 65.4, it looks like from the calls today it'd be 100% for Prop 200. So, um but it is much more difficult to work through the legislative process with politicians because they're phobic about the drug issue.
[01:02:18] Speaker 2: Well, we're down to uh two minutes. That's one minute each to more or less sum up your thoughts, to highlight what needs to be highlighted, or add what hasn't been said yet. Sam Veginis, you first.
[01:02:31] Speaker 3: I hope to see more discussions like this. Uh CASA recently got together and called for the repeal of mandatory minimums, which is shocking. I mean, this is a real far-right incarceration-type group, uh abstinence-based group. And I I think that between the sort of, you know, drug warriors that are sort of coming over, at least talking the talk and between people who are more, you know, progressive and want to go further, that that there needs to be more of a a dialogue going and and appreciate the opportunity to do this.
[01:02:58] Speaker 5: Well, um I think already our drug court is proven itself to be successful. What we have to do, we need to expand it. We need more drug courts. I think what we've done is um is a nice middle ground because it it realizes the dangers of drugs and it gives people the tools to fight it. And thirdly, it does recognize that um there are some states of consciousness that we should not alter. And anything that does that, unless there is a medical purpose for it, should be and all we should and and should be illegal and prohibited.
[01:03:33] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, those of you who are particularly interested in this, interested in this topic, you might want to um attend uh a forum that's going to be held this coming Tuesday, that's May 19th, this coming Tuesday, at 7 o'clock at the Church of the Crossroads. That's at 1212 University Avenue.
[01:03:51] Speaker 2: It's called Beyond Prisons: Breaking the Link Between Drugs and Crime. The panelists are going to be Sam Veginis, who you've been listening to as one of our two guests in the studio. And also with Sam will be representative Nestor Garcia, who's the chair of the House Committee on Public Safety and Military Affairs, Alvin Bronstein, who is the director emeritus of the ACLU National Prison Project, and Lani Ray Garcia, who is a member of the Hawaii Parole Board. Again, that is a free public forum at the Church of the Crossroads this coming Tuesday, May 19th, 7:00 PM, called Beyond Prisons: Breaking the Link Between Drugs and Crime.
[01:04:29] Speaker 2: The producer of the Price of Paradise Radio Show is Susie Roth. Our production chief is Jeff Alardi. We've been sponsored for 5 years now by the Hawaii Community Foundation. Among other things, they believe in the power of neighborhoods and have made a number of grants to help neighbors get along as well as possible. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.