The Waihee Legacy I
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-08-14
Guests: John Waihee (Governor of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:07:13

[00:00:02] Randall Roth: Good morning. This is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. Normally this program is broadcast on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM. However, due to technical problems, today's show is being broadcast on KIPO 89.3 FM and KIFO 1380 AM, in addition to KKUA 90.7 FM. Also those of you in fringe listening areas, or are having trouble receiving the program, if you check Oceanic Cable at 104.7, you can also receive the show. Again, today we're being broadcast on KIPO 89.3 FM, KIFO 1380 AM, KKUA 90.7 FM and Oceanic Cable at 104.7.

[00:00:57] Randall Roth: With me in the studio today is the man who headed Hawaii state government, or has headed Hawaii state government for the last eight years, Governor John Waihee. This program is live and our phone lines are open. To ask a question or make a comment, just call 955-8821. Governor Waihee, welcome to the Price of Paradise radio show.

[00:01:17] John Waihee: Good morning. It's actually nearly eight years, there's still a few months left that I can do something.

[00:01:23] Randall Roth: Seven and seven-eights years, or something like that. You have to have the toughest job in the state. And, for whatever reasons, these are tough times to be an elected official. I think a lot of folks expect a lot of things, and there's a lot of cynicism out there. I'm sure there have been some high points of the last seven and seven-eights years and some low points. Your pick, what do we start with, the high points or the low points?

[00:01:50] John Waihee: Well, actually, let me start by saying that, yeah, this is a tough job and and it's something that you you need to work at, but it's actually, if you're going to be in politics, being governor of the state of Hawaii is the best job there is. And it's an, it's been an incredible experience and I and working for and with the people of Hawaii, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Whatever, you know, the high points, the low points, all of it.

[00:02:17] Randall Roth: Well, I know there's a a 50-page booklet that highlights the accomplishments of the Waihee administration. It's called The Hopes and Accomplishments of the Waihee Administration. And in just a little bit, I'm going to ask you, what are the high points of that booklet of high points. But I thought first we would start with something that Diane Chang put in the, wrote in her column in the Star-Bulletin not long ago. She said, most people agree that Waihee is an amiable, down-to-earth sort of fellow. Unfortunately, other accolades have been few and far between.

[00:02:52] Randall Roth: He is a favorite target of letters to the editor who rant about his ineffectiveness, his cronies firmly ensconced in office, and the willy-nilly pie-in-the-sky way in which he sought to accomplish everything, but actually achieved little. Pretty critical. What's your reaction?

[00:03:09] John Waihee: Well, I think that first of all, um that we need to consider the source. Sorry Diane. You know, but yeah, that the nature of politics now is such that you really don't get any credit for what you've accomplished. And I think that's part of the game because actually we've probably done more than many other administrations, not only here, not only in the history of Hawaii, but across the nation.

[00:04:03] John Waihee: is that it's always easier to criticize something, to stop something, than it is to do it. And I think it's getting hotter and hotter. That's because the people in opposition to any kind of change or to any kind of movement are, are generally more vocal and and much stronger than those that would be supportive of the change. And therefore my fear is that politics in the future would consist of doing nothing because of the risk of being criticized, the risk of being, of the political downside, the constant struggle to get past united opposition.

[00:04:43] John Waihee: The rest of the stuff is, you know, a lot of interesting things but there are no cronies ensconced in offices and all of this.

[00:04:51] Randall Roth: Okay. We'll come back to to those accusations in a little bit. Right now we have a caller, David from the Big Island. You're on the air.

[00:04:58] Caller: Yes, good morning Governor.

[00:04:59] John Waihee: Good morning David.

[00:05:00] Caller: Um, I, I have recently discovered that the trustees of the Bishop Estate are paying themselves $900,000 a year. Uh, to me this is this is simply stealing money from the Hawaiian children that should go to their education. And I called your office about it and they said, oh, that's the governor is not involved in that. That's a private thing. And I called made a lot of calls and it seems like the Bishop Estate trustees are accountable to no one and they just take whatever they want. Can you comment on that?

[00:05:32] John Waihee: Well, uh first of all, the Bishop Estate trustees are accountable and they're accountable to to the courts and also to the uh, I guess the Attorney General does a uh a trustees report on them by pointing someone, a master, pointing a master every so often, do a report on them. You know, with regard to the trustee salaries, it is true that those salaries have grown tremendously uh, in the last few years. But the other side of the story is that the trustees actually under the statutes earned $1.6 million and gave back 51% and ended up around to 800,000.

[00:06:07] John Waihee: Now is that too much money for the work they do? You know, who's to decide that? My feeling is that that's the kind of issue that ought to be decided by the people most connected with the Bishop Estate, uh, the beneficiaries and the like. Now, what I and I think there is some point where they're going to have to ask themselves, are they being paid too much for the job they do. Now, the reason why they've been paid too much uh so much, by the way, is because they've been able to earn a lot of money for the estate. They get a percentage of whatever they earn.

[00:06:39] Randall Roth: But, but Governor Waihee, the the statute sets a maximum. They set their own salary.

[00:06:45] John Waihee: Well, no, the statutes sets a a a a the statute allows them to present to uh pay themselves a percentage of their earnings.

[00:06:54] Randall Roth: Allows them to pay up to that amount.

[00:06:55] John Waihee: There is no maximum. That's one of the problems. There there is no, you know, there is in the statute for for trust. And by the way, this is not unique to Hawaii, it's unique in the entire nation. What the statute does is it says that you can, you can receive a certain percentage of the income generated up to a certain amount and so forth. There is no maximum in the in the uh in, in in our statute.

[00:07:22] Randall Roth: Right, but it's it's within their discretion to set the salary. They can pay up to that percentage and so whether it's 800, 900,000, a million, they set that.

[00:07:31] John Waihee: Right now, right now, they do set the uh the the the amount that they receive because they return about 51% of it. Um, let me just say this though, it wasn't all that easy for them to do because they first had to get income tax rulings to see whether they could have done that. Now, I'm not, you know, I don't intend to spend this morning by the way, justifying the Bishop Estates and their and their salaries. I know we are trying to explain the situation.

[00:07:57] John Waihee: My, my only feeling on that though is that it is something that uh when we start to when if government starts to get into, then we need to be fair about it. Everybody talks about the Bishop Estate. My only thing is that if we're going to treat the Bishop Estate and set a maximum, then we ought to do it for all trusts. This ought not to be a crusade against the Bishop Estate and their salaries. After all that they're getting the the salaries that they're getting are have really reached in vantage.

[00:08:24] John Waihee: I mean, there was a time when when Bishop Estate salaries were not that high, number one, and number two, it is the result of them doing their work well, so to speak.

[00:08:31] Randall Roth: Governor Waihee, there's a rumor that the Supreme Court justices are holding off appointing the new Bishop Estate trustee waiting for you to finish your term of office. And I know you've been quoted as saying that uh uh you would apply for the position if it's still open when your term of office is is up. Um, I think you realize that a Bishop Estate trusteeship is, is seen as a real political plum.

[00:08:56] John Waihee: Second best job in Hawaii. Uh, I've left to be in Governor.

[00:09:00] Randall Roth: Don't, don't you think that uh if, if the people that you appointed to their position, appointed you to the Bishop Estate, uh, in the context of people feeling that it's, it's become a real political plum, don't you think that that that would uh cause a lot of people to become more cynical about government than they already are?

[00:09:21] John Waihee: Yes, yeah, I do. And as a matter of fact, that's why I have said um on numerous occasions that I, you know, I don't, I don't intend to I have I don't intend to apply for, nor do I intend to accept any appointment to the Bishop Estate, uh at least you know, that is being currently and discussed. I don't think that most governors would be in the position to even be considered, uh prime candidates for Bishop Estate in, in any event. So I think this issue will disappear when I leave office.

[00:10:18] Randall Roth: Okay. David?

[00:10:19] Caller: I, I, I, I guess, I, you know, he, he Oh, David, you're still on. Great. Come on back. I'm still here. Yeah, you, you said, uh all right, they get 800,000 year, who's to say where that's too much or not? I, I, I, I, I maybe I'm naive but I, I, I say that's too much. For a part-time job? Hey, come on.

[00:10:39] John Waihee: Well, you know again, I, I, I mean the awkward position of having to defend them in these things. But let me just say, it's more than a part-time job. You also get, you're also being held personally liable for any mistakes that you make. Now, whether they should get more or about that, I don't know.

[00:11:18] Randall Roth: David, thank you for your call. You've raised an important issue and we appreciate your call.

[00:11:22] Caller: Thank you.

[00:11:23] Randall Roth: We've got Martha on the line from Hawaii Kai. Martha, you're on the air.

[00:11:27] Caller: Good morning Governor.

[00:11:28] John Waihee: Good morning Martha.

[00:11:30] Caller: I'm disappointed in the kind of people that you've appointed to commissions and their uh facilities and their abilities to do the job. And rather than talking about what you might do with the Bishop Estate, I'd like to hear you talk about the land, number one, and number two, the kind of people you think should be appointed to commissions. Thank you Governor.

[00:11:52] John Waihee: Well, I, I think that first of all, I would be interested in hearing from you, you know, what exactly you were disappointed in with the people that I appointed.

[00:12:00] Caller: I can tell you.

[00:12:01] John Waihee: Well, why don't you do that?

[00:12:02] Caller: Okay, on the Public Utilities Commission, I attended the commission hearings, and they, uh they were talking about preparation for the international communications highway etc. And the people who are appointed had no technical technological background at all. Okay. And this is very disappointing. One man said, uh they would depend on the chairman. Another nominee said that he would defer to his partner who knew more. And the partner said, well give me six months and I'll be uh on online. Now that is very discouraging.

[00:12:38] John Waihee: Well, I, I think I, uh now you mentioned that, maybe I should tell you what my my response would be. First of all, I think we've got three very capable people on the Public Utilities Commission. I'm talking about the new nominees that were just confirmed and they are not. Well, uh okay, I mean, that's you know, you're entitled to your opinion. Now, my feeling is this that there are there are going to be changes from time to time in the Public Utilities area and they are going to be uh that the super information highway is definitely one of the coming things for the future.

[00:13:17] John Waihee: But I'm not so sure that appointing a commissioner that is a technician or expert on that per se is a absolute qualification for participation in the Public Utilities Commission. Because there are broader interests at stake and that commissioners need to have the staff and need to have the ability to grapple with these issues, even if they don't come from it. Now, the commission, uh, as I outline it, consists of a chairman who with a legal background, who is extremely knowledgeable on a wide variety of issues dealing with the public interest.

[00:13:59] John Waihee: And the one nominee that was nominated this time was a well-known businessman, a representative of the business community, an interest that for many many years was said to was said to be lacking on the Public Utilities Commission. Someone that would represent that kind of viewpoint and its dealing with the issues like the Information Highway. The third commissioner was someone who has uh who was from the neighbor islands, uh and again an area an interest that many people for years have said was not included on the Public Utilities Commission. And with uh instances like Hurricane Iniki and other things happening on the neighbor islands, it seemed appropriate that they would be a neighbor island representative.

[00:14:51] John Waihee: He is also a person then had extensive background in consumer protection and consumer type legislation. So I mean, these are much broader interests than a particular uh technical expertise that I think the commission ought to represent and then listen to experts and to the community.

[00:15:12] Caller: Uh Governor, my telephone service is so bad that we need to have somebody who is aware of technology and the need for better systems communication. My telephone was out for over two weeks at Christmas time.

[00:15:27] John Waihee: Well, I agree with you, we can do more to improve the telephone company. And by the way, while you're at it, we should do something for Hawaiian Electric, who who is being blamed for the reason why the the antenna is down and we're not on the right station this morning.

[00:15:39] Randall Roth: And we're speculating Chuck Friedman has something to do with that. Is that right?

[00:15:42] John Waihee: Well, I I think, I think frankly, Chuck is bored at his job and created the crisis. Thank you. Thank you very much for your call, Martha. Thank you.

[00:15:49] Caller: Bye-bye, Governor.

[00:16:03] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. My guest is Governor John Waihee. We're talking about the high points and low points of his eight years or almost eight years in office. Listeners are invited to join in our conversation by calling 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are invited to call collect. The number again, 955-8821. Governor Waihee, you've been criticized, I think, by a number of people for not having done enough with public education. And often times, as part of their criticism, they'll quote your uh comment that that we should have education second to none here in Hawaii. Um, what are your thoughts on all of that?

[00:16:45] John Waihee: Well, first, first of all, I fer- I fervently believe that the educational system in Hawaii must be second to none. That there are, we have to have a system where, uh our parents believe that their children are receiving the best education. And that that is our goal, and that's what it's all about. And if you don't have that as a goal, then what are you really doing? What are you working for? And so, we set about trying to accomplish that. Now, I also know, and I think uh everyone out there with any kind of, you know, reasonable expectation would know that you can't do that in a year or two.

[00:17:23] John Waihee: That that's a process. That's a that happens over time. So we began, uh in I think in my my major speeches on the 1988 saying that our goal was to accomplish that within 10 years. And in order to do that, we started things like a school- community-based management, we built hundreds of new facilities, more than than we did in the past. When I first got elected, most people had absolutely no hope. I think one, some of the basis of this criticism is the fact that people now expect more and more and better and better, and I think that's healthy.

[00:18:17] Randall Roth: I think you're right. You know, Lex Brody, who's a member of the school board wrote a report a year or so ago where he concluded that something was desperately wrong with the school system. One of the indicators that he cited was that, according to his report, uh the percentage of the state budget that has been devoted to public education has slipped from 30% to 18%. Is that accurate?

[00:18:40] John Waihee: No, first of all, it's not accurate. of how much of the state budget actually goes to education. And we discovered that over 30% or about 30% of the budget right now goes into the educational system. Not all of it is allocated to the Department of Education. For example, the repair and maintenance of buildings are given to another department. The funding for health services at the at the schools are given to another department and and so forth. So first of all, it's not an accurate, those are not accurate, but more importantly, you know, and people miss this point.

[00:19:32] John Waihee: More importantly is that education by itself is funding education by itself is not enough to develop a truly first-rate educational system. That we have growing human service needs and children who are hungry aren't going to learn well in the classrooms. Kids who are abused or have dysfunctional families are not going to learn well in the in the classroom. So if you're going to have first-rate education, you also need to invest in human services. You need to invest in health programs, you need to invest in child support programs, you need to invest in family programs which have grown substantially over the years.

[00:20:17] John Waihee: Now, back in whenever Lex pulls out his numbers from, they didn't have that same commitment of resources to these kinds of programs. And now to say because these programs have grown and any basic mathematician can tell you that if you expand an area, the percentage amount of anything will shrink accordingly.

[00:20:40] Randall Roth: Okay. We have a caller, John from Kapahulu. John, you're on the air.

[00:20:44] Caller: Hello John. Hey terrific. Good morning Governor and good morning Mr. Ross.

[00:20:48] John Waihee: Morning.

[00:20:49] Caller: Uh, Governor, I'm an educator and uh I've been in more kindergarten classrooms this past year than even Mr. Brody because I do uh artists in the schools type work and things like that.

[00:21:02] John Waihee: Congratulations John. That's worthy of note.

[00:21:06] Caller: And um you know, I read the literature and I do the journals and stuff like that. And I'm very involved, almost you know I'm applying to graduate schools for a PhD in semiotics, which is the philosophy of symbolism. And it has caused me to uh ask these questions of people and since I consider Governor Waihee one of the political or the superior political dialogue creators in the state, I mean that as a compliment Governor. I mean becoming Governor of a state as politically fractious as Hawaii is no small achievement. And because I what's your question John? Okay. It's just simple.

[00:21:37] Randall Roth: I'm enjoying this, but what's your question?

[00:21:39] Caller: Okay.

[00:21:40] Randall Roth: Well I'm enjoying it say continue to say nice things and you can have the line as long as you want it.

[00:21:45] Caller: Well I'm not going to I'm the question becomes this. I've come to believe because of a large component of private schools in the state of Hawaii and because of the way people shape their arguments about education that perhaps we have emerged on a course that leads to separate but equal.

[00:22:00] Randall Roth: Mhm.

[00:22:00] Caller: And I want to include in the political debate the question where do you send your children to school?

[00:22:07] Randall Roth: Mhm.

[00:22:08] Caller: And I want to know what your thoughts are on that. And after that, I suspect I have one more question, so I'd like to stay in line if I could. The question is where do you where do you send your children to school? Should that be part of the political debate?

[00:22:18] John Waihee: I think that that that definitely should be part of the political debate in in this first of all in this sense that when we say we want education second to none, that no parent ought to be sending their child to public to private school because they don't think that they can get an equally good education in the public schools. And and that really was the my simplistic way of trying to describe what second to none meant. So that if you send your children to private schools, it ought to be for some kind of reason other than educational soundness.

[00:22:51] John Waihee: Now, my children attended public schools when my wife thought in the public school and when she went to teach at Hawaii Mission Academy, they went with her. And it had to do with as much logistics as anything else and they then they both got currently enrolled at the Well, my daughter just graduated from the University of Hawaii and my son is still currently enrolled there. So, you know, these these were family decisions that were made along the way. But I can say in our family's case, we did not go to private school because we thought we couldn't get something better at public school.

[00:23:26] John Waihee: And now that may have been just as much a function of the fact that my wife was a school teacher and the children sort of followed her in her career. But that's yeah. I I think you're right. And and that's the bottom line. I think no one ought to be sending their, and if we're going to have a dream and we're going to have a vision, the vision ought to be that when people send their children to private school, they're doing it because they they want for some reason other than educational quality.

[00:23:55] John Waihee: Now that is happening by the way in in Maui, on Maui, there's a there's a school out there, intermediate school that where I visited and it was outstanding to was was just extraordinary for me to see the number of children that youngsters that are being put back into school by their parents that were formally in private schools because they felt that the educational process in in Maui, uh was was better or equal to what they were receiving.

[00:24:24] Randall Roth: John Kapahulu. Was that answer your question, John?

[00:24:27] Caller: Yeah. I have a follow-up question. Sure.

[00:24:29] Randall Roth: Okay.

[00:24:30] Caller: Frequently when I've seen journalists ask this question of politicians, they have responded with, this is a family choice and surely you wouldn't deny a family choice. And the perspective I have is, no one's arguing about the family choice. Rather what we're questioning is, should we give our franchise and thereby control over policy and funding to the public school system to people who pay tuition to private schools. The the voter should be allowed to decide if that's really in their best interest.

[00:24:59] John Waihee: Well, I think that one of the things we ought to do is return decision-making to parents and to teachers in the public schools and that's why we began uh school community-based management. I think that on the higher level, uh when you're talking about who is ultimately responsible for the school, I would either like to see an independent school board, which uh which would truly be accountable for its decisions or because this is what's on the ballot now, I would urge everybody to vote for and um uh vote for an appointed school board.

[00:25:31] John Waihee: Let me tell you why, John, because I think, I don't know, I think you can make your choice then you can make your choice about the kind of governor you want. You know, if you're if you believe that the governor uh that did not uh set his children to public to private public schools shouldn't be governor, then you can you can cash your vote in that way. But at least you would know who ultimately was responsible for the quality of your children's education. That does not exist today.

[00:26:01] John Waihee: Now, I think that uh I think that anyone, I don't think that it ought to be a absolute criteria uh on whether or not your children went to one school or another school in order to make decisions because I can tell you that governors make a lot of decisions about a lot of activities, which hopefully we have never been a part of.

[00:26:21] Randall Roth: John, thank you for your call.

[00:26:23] John Waihee: Appreciate it.

[00:26:24] Caller: Thank you, John.

[00:26:25] Randall Roth: Bye. In case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guest is Governor John Waihee. We're live and phone lines are open. To ask a question or make a comment, just call 955-8821. Governor Waihee, there are a number of people who are working on something called Pop 94 and basically, what we're trying to do is come up with real good questions that we should as a community, we should be asking of the candidates for Governor. Do you know anything about Pop 94 and if so, what do you think about it and what's the idea? Does it sound like a good one or not?

[00:26:57] John Waihee: Well, I think that well first of all, I think I've heard a little bit about Pop 94, not as much as maybe I should I should uh shouldn't know about it, but let me I am actually very impressed by it. I'm I'm impressed because I think it's a rejuvenating kind of movement and it's something that's necessary. I think that uh for far too long, both the Republican and Democratic parties and and to a certain extent, even the uh the new parties have been caught up in a kind of um the same as usual.

[00:27:29] John Waihee: Uh, you know, they look, even new parties may look new, but it's the same kind of politics they were doing yesterday they're doing today. So we, you know, all of a sudden, it seems to me like we have something in the community that is cross-line, cross-partisan lines, cross-community lines, cross-ethnic lines and say, look, we're not necessarily taking sides on this. But we uh what we want is we want some answers, we want to get to the bottom of the problem, we want some solutions. And I frankly, I think the whole the thing has tremendous potential and it'll benefit the political system as a whole because it seems to be transferring some energy into it.

[00:28:05] Randall Roth: Well, we've gathered over 4,000 questions so far and let me ask you, what's the single most important question that we as a community should be asking the gubernatorial candidates?

[00:28:14] John Waihee: How? How in the world are you going to do what you do? See, anybody running from for office, if they're at all capable, if they if they have an iota of uh of being credible, are going to tell you what they think ought to be done. They're going to tell you where they think things where we ought to go and and so forth. They're going to talk about we ought to have the best educational system, we ought to reform workers compensation, we ought to reduce the cost of living.

[00:28:41] Randall Roth: Reduce the size of government, right?

[00:28:43] John Waihee: Reduce the size of government, you know, and all of their things are are important but in my opinion, that's uh that's graduating from high school in politics. If you want to show that you have, you know, you've gone through college, then tell me how. Tell me how in a society that is increasingly diverse, in a society that finds itself in a situation where smaller and smaller units have the ability to block uh pro-inter- programs or projects that may be in the larger public interest. You have something special to offer that will accomplish your goal. I mean, any one of the hows or the wheres is agreeable, tell me how.

[00:29:26] Randall Roth: We have a caller from Hawaii Kai. Charlotte, you're on the air.

[00:29:29] Caller: Hello Charlotte. Um, good morning, Governor, uh good morning, Mr. Ross. Good morning. Uh, we appreciate your program.

[00:29:36] John Waihee: Thank you.

[00:29:37] Caller: Um, Governor, those of us who believe in sovereignty are now beginning to doubt. Uh when we have, um renegades like Mr. Napoleon or Napoleon family and Bumpy Kanahele, uh if they can go and take over a beach, if they can go and take over a sidewalk in front of the Hyatt, uh when will they go and take over my house?

[00:30:04] John Waihee: Well, first of all, they they won't go and take over your house because it uh it wouldn't be tolerated, but let me let me say this, you know, the the the process of sovereignty is a long and complex one. And it's going to be one that I think uh this deserves the attention of the full community. Uh, obviously the parameters of it will be guided by what the Hawaiian community wants, but it needs all of our involvement, uh if it's going to work.

[00:30:33] John Waihee: Now, I think though that having said that, then we need to get down to what life is all about, and that is that there are no perfect human beings and therefore there are no, there is no perfect movement. And there are always going to be people that are involved in any movement in any issue whom uh you may or may may not dis- you may agree or may not agree with. But that is the nature of the process and the nature of our society. I don't think that we can judge the value of sovereignty or what it can mean uh to society as a whole by the action or inactions of any particular uh individual.

[00:31:18] John Waihee: I think we need to look at the overall uh result.

[00:32:47] Caller: when they go down or they're having a commission come and examine what's going on here?

[00:32:54] John Waihee: Well, let let me you see the the the that's a great question because you asked it, you know, if you do I fight an embarrassment. You know, I want one of the things about myself is that I have my skin has gotten a lot thicker uh on the last seven and three-fourths years, you know, but

[00:33:10] Caller: That's understandable.

[00:33:11] John Waihee: But let me say this. Let me say this, I don't think that it is productive. Personally, I don't think it is productive to the cause to uh do some of the activities that some of these uh groups have been involved in. For example, I didn't think it was productive uh when Bumpy and the uh initiated a boycott and uh down in Waikiki and told the tourists to to leave. Now, he has a right actually on the as an American citizen outside of sovereignty to do that. In fact, we're still, you know, dealing with the with the sidewalk vendors down there, but so Bumpy was down there doing that.

[00:33:49] John Waihee: But who in fact was being affected by that? Who did he hurt by it? It, you know, it was not uh the tourist coming over. Um and so the ineffectiveness uh I agree with and personally I think it was counterproductive. But the nature of our country, you see, I let me I think I should just say this, I think that one of the the things that underscores the sovereignty movement is that America is a great country and I don't want to sound like this is the 4th of July, but I don't think the sovereignty movement debate could take place in another country besides America.

[00:34:24] John Waihee: And uh some of the things that the that the groups are doing uh really are not about sovereignty, they're about expressing their rights of Americans and when people do that, it causes a lot of discomfort for other people in the society.

[00:34:37] Caller: Well, I all I have can say from Bumpy, he makes all of us jump. When you go down to Makapu'u, you're afraid to kick over a stone. Yeah. Well, all of a sudden, oh, thank you. Thank you very much for your call.

[00:34:51] John Waihee: Thank you, Charlotte, and also you know we need to give Bumpy those, you know, he's a very controversial individual. And well, he may have done things that some of us disagree with. He has also done some things that are very positive. He's very I don't think he's a complex person that can be put into any kind of uh of a pigeon hole, you know. He he does he's what you know, he's out there building homes for people and taking care of people on one hand.

[00:35:13] John Waihee: On the other hand, if he goes back on Makapu'u, then we have to do what we have to do and and no one should occupy a public beach that belongs to everybody else.

[00:35:21] Randall Roth: Governor Waihee, I think Charlotte's concern is is the the sort of concern that a lot of people, uh Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians are are feeling about just where this is going. What what's your personal belief? In other words, if if you could make something specific happen, if you didn't have to go through a consensus building process, you could just say, here's what we're going to have in the way of sovereignty or we're not going to have sovereignty, whatever, what would you do? What's your personal belief on this?

[00:35:49] John Waihee: Well, I think that first of all, I I believe that it's something that will happen and I think it's something that is necessary. And maybe I should explain why I believe so much about that. And that is because I think that, you know, getting beyond the historical facts and the moral the moral right or wrong of the situation, all of which I believe is important and I think that there was some illegal action that took place a long time ago. Getting down to Governor being Governor of Hawaii and how we can improve this society.

[00:36:21] John Waihee: I think that if we are going to have the kind of society that we want, where diverse people live together in harmony and well, then we may need to make sure that no groove feels like they're left out of it. And in the case of the Hawaiian community, I think that there is something there that needs to be addressed. Now, why sovereignty is a solution to that something that needs to be addressed because in my experience has been that people best solve their own problems best.

[00:36:54] John Waihee: And I know you get called as a liberal Democrat, all kinds of things, my own criticism, but let me tell you, you know, programs that are designed for people work best when they are in charge of it. And so we have a series of programs and things that have been done to uplift the Hawaiian community, and yet, it's been done by other people for Hawaiians.

[00:37:16] John Waihee: I think that if they had been in charge of these programs, if the Hawaiian community had been in charge of these programs from the beginning, they surely wouldn't have done any worse than we had and I think they would have done much better because if you're in control of your own destiny, there's some there's dignity to it and you begin to function better. So that's kind of my context for where I come from. The rest is a matter of adjusting, working, seeing what is feasible and trying to accomplish it.

[00:37:44] Randall Roth: Let me ask you about the uh Senate investigation committee that Dick Mozzer led up last year.

[00:37:52] John Waihee: Are they going to investigate the Senate for a change? Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[00:37:57] Randall Roth: Uh, just share some of your thoughts about the

[00:38:00] John Waihee: the work of that particular committee. Well, I think that the committee was again, you know, a expression of the times. I think that the the subject matter that subject matters that they wanted to get into always legitimate. I think that the the Senate committee Senate ought to be able to investigate anything it it it wants to regarding state government, and people ought to have a right to know. This my administration was the administration in the sense that made that Senate committee possible.

[00:38:28] John Waihee: Because we passed the Open Records Law that opened up things to government uh to public scrutiny that never existed before. Now, I don't think though, and if I, you know, I want to be very candid about. I don't think that the committee conducted itself in a way that was designed to shed more light than heat.

[00:38:50] John Waihee: When when Senator Matzu era was on our show last year, he said that he had been offered a job uh during the middle of the investigation, and it was in the context of our discussion of of the so-called high three, which can be a um, you know, an incentive for somebody who's in the legislature to to take an appointive job. Did you offer him a job, and if so, No, and I wouldn't. You wouldn't? I wouldn't. I know I don't think he would be capable of handling the job of some of the people that he was he was investigating. I and I'll be very blunt about it.

[00:39:20] John Waihee: He's not a favorite of yours? Because No, well, I I know it's not it's not whether he's a favorite, it's not a favorite. I think he's a better advocate than he would be an administrator. And I think that Dick uh, you know, would get too tangled up in the inner workings of the program to be an administrator. So, I didn't offer him a job. I don't know who would have.

[00:39:38] John Waihee: What what are your what's your reaction to the fact that your Lieutenant Governor uh Ben Cayetano in his race for the governorship seems to be trying very hard to distance himself from uh from the Waihee administration. Uh, I'm reading now a quote from Honolulu Magazine. It says Cayetano is saddled with an especially cumbersome piece of baggage. He's stuck with a guilt by association problem. How will he manage to disassociate himself from the Waihee administration, and then in a question answer uh interview, they asked him, as Lieutenant Governor, you seem to be closely associated with Waihee's administration, uh closer than Lewin, and Cayetano's answer was, well, he's more part of the administration than I am. How does that make you feel for them to be having a contest to see who's closer? Well, you know, this well, first of all, it feels like, you know, I I think those are kind of the kind of answers that that we're getting that that you know, uh, justified the need for for for Pop 94.

[00:40:40] John Waihee: Because you need to get past some of that stuff. But let me just say this. I know what it's like to be a Democratic Lieutenant Governor, um try to run for governor at the tail end of a of a, you know, an incumbent administration. And I think that uh that's a very challenging uh situation to be in. And so very basically there's the strategy for anyone in that position is the same whether it was for Ben Cayetano or for myself. So you don't take it personally. No, I don't take it personally because I think first of all, um, I think, well, let me just say this, if I can complete that thought, because I think you you have two things you need to accomplish. Number one, you need to create your own persona. You need to show that you have something different to offer that is uh that is that the voters are to consider and and therefore, um, because at the end of any incumbent administration, there's a certain desire for change. And so so you need to be on the side of change. And yet, it has to be coupled with the necessity to uh hold together the basic support that put the incumbent in office. And so you you you're walking this uh this tightrope and you're trying to straddle this fence because in reality, you need everybody to elect you. Now, having said that, if you're successful, you win. And if you're not successful, you don't. And so I went around the place and tried to, in my own way, giving the times of 19 uh 86, to show that I had something different than George Ariyoshi. Now, I fully expect Ben should be the same. Now, that's because people honestly do that. People do pass the sins on uh from one generation to the other, and they really ought not to. Or if they're going to do it, they ought to do it fairly. I mean, Pat Saiki was a member of the Bush Reagan years. And um you know, and that was in the history of America some one of the most uh um scandal-ridden period of uh American history. Yet, I don't think Pat had anything to do with any of that.

[00:43:01] John Waihee: Well, maybe that's going to be your answer to the next question. Uh as part of Power 94, which is a consortium of the Star Bulletin and Channel 4 and and uh uh let's see, public radio and public television, they did some polling, and according to them, here in Hawaii, the voters' number one concern is abuse of power. Why would that be? Well, I think that there's, first of all, there's a suspicion about government, and I think that there are a lot of reasons why that occurs. I think, first of all, I think in a sense that people don't believe that government is effective anymore, and uh and and it's sort of set it's sort of interesting because the same people who don't believe government is effective spend an awful lot of time making sure government doesn't do uh what it should do. And so, I think that some of that feeds into it. It's a lot easier answer to say that somebody is something didn't happen because somebody is dishonest then it is to say something didn't happen because the problem may be a little tougher than you think.

[00:44:14] John Waihee: And so there's a tendency now in the society to see dishonesty or or to to to to take that route and it feeds upon ourselves, and it feeds upon us as a society, and it feeds upon the quality of people who are going to run for public office in the future. Now, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be open in government, like we have the open records law, that people ought not to be held accountable, that we ought not to have effective prosecution of anybody who disobeys the law, but there is this tendency to say that if you disagree with me, you're crooked.

[00:44:53] John Waihee: And we do this every day, and politicians live off of it. Okay. We're making a we're making a science of that in politics. In case you joined us late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guest is Governor John Waihee. We're live and phone lines are open. Jenny and Malia Tanji are out there waiting for your call. The number is 955-8821.

[00:45:18] John Waihee: Follow us through all the various radio stations because somehow Chuck Friedman messed up the tower this morning. Should we give him Chuck's home phone number? Yeah. Why don't we do that? In fact, I used to know it. It's 734, something, something, but, you know, get it out there. Call Chuck at home and ask him where our tower is at.

[00:45:36] John Waihee: Governor Waihee, speaking of voters' concerns, uh the cost of living here in Hawaii is always a topic of conversation, and I believe the newspaper a day or two ago was saying that it's at about 35% or for 39 Right. 39 above the average on the mainland. What is the state government's ability to affect the cost of living here in Hawaii, and what is the responsibility of government in terms of bringing down the cost of living here in Hawaii?

[00:46:07] John Waihee: Well, I think first of all, the cost of living is a major issue for the people in Hawaii, and if we got past all the uh the hype stuff and the easy stuff, this is the hard issue that uh we need to we need to deal with, and I think to government can do a lot to affect the cost of government. I mean, the cost of living, and uh and on one hand. On the other hand, we can't do as much as people think, but we can do some. We because most people when you look at the cost of living, there are definable areas that cause that cost of living to be as high. Cost of housing, cost of transportation, the cost of uh bringing in goods and services, the cost of insurance, the cost of doing business. So if you isolate those areas out, then how do you fix it? Well, do you go about uh how do you go about doing it? Workers' compensation is a big issue now, uh in the state of for for businesses in the state of Hawaii. And um it is it adds to the cost of living in Hawaii. What do we do about it? Back in 1985, we sat about uh getting uh people together and coming out with a reform effort. And for the first five or six years of my administration, workers' compensation cost was actually down uh you know, and now we had we had another turnaround. The new governor has to look at that. Has to look at that.

[00:48:40] John Waihee: Let let me ask you a question. It's been suggested that the only reason our population hasn't increased much, much more in size than than already is because of our high cost of living. If if government is successful in bringing down the cost of housing and the cost of food and and the cost of workers' comp and what have you, um, do you see a problem with 10 million people from California moving over here? And if so, what can government do about that? I don't I don't think that that's the way the issue is really to be looked at. I think that we make choices every day. We make choices about what is important. And what is important about our society and and the kinds of islands that we want. And so these choices are are reflect into the cost that we're willing to pay. So there's a certain amount of cost of paradise. So I don't think that necessarily we ought to have the same cost of living as Nevada because I don't want to be like Nevada. Or at least I don't think the state ought to be like Nevada. So our cost ought to be higher so that we can and and so we balance these things. I think it's too high now, but on the other hand, you know, that we make choices that we want open space in Hawaii. That we don't want urban sprawl. Right. And that reflects in in in uh in the cost of housing. It's also true that we have our scarcity of land. But they also and these are important societal choices, and yet, and we are and we when we want to be able to pay for it. But those are that's the the reason is the kind of society that we want, not because we keep driving the cost of housing. Okay. We have a number of callers on the line. First Ron. All right. Ron from Maui, you're on the air. Yeah, on the on the early Okay Ron, on the early retirement bill that gives a two-year bonus if you have 25 years of service. Yes. I happened to miss that by a year. I wonder if Governor Waihee thinks it'll ever be offered again. I thought you're going to ask for a special exception to that. I missed it by three years myself, and and you know. No, I I I I I I think it'll be a long time before they do that again. I think this is pretty much a one shot uh one shot piece of legislation and um and it'll be a while before they do it again.

[00:49:47] John Waihee: Sorry Ron. Our next caller is Bob from Pupekeao. Bob, you're on the air. Hi Bob. Oh, hey Governor. Uh I got a question about corruption. You were talking uh a few moments ago about that. The uh for many years uh the the charge of corruption was proved by the fact that what was called by Rick Reed, the Godfather of crime in Hawaii, was supporting Democratic candidates earlier this year, when the Mr. Mayhau became a supporter of Mrs. Saiki. All of a sudden some letters from Old John Carroll, a former Republican legislator, saying, for 17 years I sat quietly and didn't see anything, uh when I knew all along that uh that Mr. Mayhau was a wonderful, sweet guy. Right. And some uh conservative uh, I forget his name, wrote a piece that was in the think the Star Bulletin the other day. Yes, I saw it saying, Oh, he was such a wonderful guy. Uh, but corruption is still going on. Uh, the question is, uh was corruption going on because he was associated with Democrats before, when he left, did the did the corruption stay behind or did he Maybe Pat Robinson talked to him and he had a change. No, I you know, I don't know, but but let me just say this. You know, we people do things and say things from where they take a position the the position people take are dictated by from you know, where they sit. And one of the things that makes I think the public cynical about politics is precisely that, that on one hand you see a group of people condensing someone that uh as being the godfather and all of these things and with a Democrat uh and and therefore this democratic machine is tainted by all of this, and the person then decides to support somebody else, sends back the group that was criticizing them, and all of a sudden it no longer exists. Or you see, you know, and that happens in the political arena. Now, what is what is the normal citizen to think except that all of this stuff is bunk. You know, I think we we we need to get down to the fact that that Mr. Mayhau is currently supporting uh the gubernatorial candidate, Pat Saiki, the Republican gubernatorial candidate, because for some reason, it's in his best interest to do it. He has some reason why he believes that supporting her is going to be very important to him in the future. Now, more than just that they were high school classmates. More than they were just high school. There's some reason there. Now, he probably had some reason when he supported the democratic candidate. Now, you and I can then begin to be have a great theoretical this discussion on whether that reason is a noble one or not. But the bottom line is that people that of that kind of magnitude support people because they have a good reason and the rest of this stuff is hype. Bob, thank you for your question. Thank you. We've got a couple more callers on the line. Murray from Maui. Murray, you're on the air. Good morning, Governor. Good morning, Murray. uh In response to a question asked a little while ago, you responded uh as to the most important questions to ask a candidate was how. I I'd like to pose the question to you. If you were running again, Yes. would it be How would I do that? Change the constitution. No, it's not a rhetorical question. Uh if you were running again, would it be fair of me a voter to ask you a candidate theoretically in control with along with the legislature and the judicial, maybe a billion dollars? Uh what would it be appropriate for me to ask you or any other candidate to provide a written business plan of how the money is going to be spent and a timeline so that we could look and judge in a very pragmatic manner, much the same way that a loan officer would look at an application. Because Sounds like a good question, Murray. Let's see what the governor says. I I think it would be legitimate and I think it would be legitimate for most candidates or anyone to tell you that they couldn't give you that specific uh uh kind of a business plan uh because they couldn't handle all the the changing conditions, but they can do more than they're doing now, and they can tell you what they given the facts that we do know what the projected revenue stream is going to be for the future uh which is public information by the way, they can tell you what they they are they ought to be able to tell you if they spend the time on it, how they would handle the current budget situation. I have to do that uh and that information is is apparent at least on that level. Now, giving you a business plan of the depth that you would expect when you go and get in a bank loan, you couldn't do it because obviously they're not governor now, and they don't have that kind of information. But given the information that they have, I think candidates could address that that uh that uh uh question. Now, let me tell you what my fear is about government though, and I ask this question and why I tell people to ask the question how. See, I fear that most candidates will not do that. And the and the reason why they won't do that is because as I said earlier, it is extremely difficult to do things because people that are in opposition are always going to be much more vocal, much more open about it than people who would support anything that you want to do. So every major candidate knows that it's safer. It's safer not to really put yourself on the line and it's safer to do nothing. It's safer to do nothing because you don't generate opposition. Because when you do do something, you don't get the the people that you don't get the same degree of support for having done something as you get for having uh as you get from people who oppose your proposing anything. So we have to elevate the community if we're going to elevate the political process. Well, exactly. You need to elevate the community. You need that's the reason why I'm advocating, if everybody asked the question how, sooner or later, they have to answer. But if I was a candidate right now, given the context we found ourselves, the smart thing to do is to say what they're saying right now and say, I will balance the budget, I will make sure we'll do things more efficiently, I will make sure that we have a more smaller workforce and the rest of this stuff. What what should I do as a voter um to to say that, hey, that's not acceptable? I think the first thing you ought to do maybe is check out this Pop 94 thing. If you can get enough people working on that and get the get the media, get the people behind, you know, really asking that question. I'd like to see that. Giving to a set of facts, what would you do? If you're going to if you're going to shrink the size of government, where would you shrink it? How are you going to support education, as you say you're going to do as a priority, and cut back abuse children programs? How are you going to do it, support education as you say and not fund homeless programs?

[00:57:00] John Waihee: kids don't learn when they don't have a place to sleep at night. So let's get let's get real about these things.

[00:57:05] Randall Roth: Thank you, Murray.

[00:57:06] John Waihee: Aloha. We need to move on.

[00:57:07] Randall Roth: Thank you much. Graham from Volcano on the Big Island. Graham, you're on the air.

[00:57:12] Caller: Uh, good morning, governor.

[00:57:13] Randall Roth: Good morning.

[00:57:14] Caller: Um, Singapore, the island of Singapore has the same problem as um uh Hawaii. It's an island state uh and it has limited uh roads and resources. There they limit the number of licensed vehicles allowed on the island. Would that work in Hawaii?

[00:57:33] John Waihee: It would work if you had an alternative transportation system. You know, and one of the reasons why I was supportive of the rapid uh mass transit system was because that I think that someday, maybe not within, you know, the decade or so, but at some point in time, we're going to have to seriously consider limiting the amount of automobiles that we allow on the island. It just there's a certain point where you hit uh you just hit a finite number and you can't have any more. Now, if you don't have some kind of mass transportation system though, and you start to do that, uh like Singapore does, and the way they do it is by imposing huge taxes. You know you bring a car in and you need to pay a tax something like five times more than the value of the car. If you're going to have a second car, if you're going to even have a car. And what you what what that'll start to do is that all the rich people uh will have the cars. The governor will always have, you know, the ability to have a limousine, but somebody that's working out there cannot pay five times the tax on an automobile. Unless we all had rapid transit, and then you could say you can't have it, you can't have this car. You see?

[00:58:46] Randall Roth: Thank you, Graham.

[00:58:47] John Waihee: But um I'm sure there are others out there who disagree with the rapid transit thing. But you see, you know, That's why my ratings go down over the years. You keep saying these things.

[00:58:57] Randall Roth: I didn't mean to cut that off quite so harshly there. Thank you, Graham. I did want to ask though. There are a number of people who say you're one of the biggest FOBs in the state, or maybe even in the country.

[00:59:10] John Waihee: What what is what is FOB? You know.

[00:59:13] Randall Roth: Friend of Bill.

[00:59:14] John Waihee: Okay. Good. Good, because some people have been saying that in a certain way, and it's come out to mean something else. But yeah.

[00:59:21] Randall Roth: Initial similar to that, huh? Um What what's in store for for Governor Waihee when your term is up? There's talk of being appointed ambassador to Indonesia, and and I think your friendship and and trust in one another with the president is is very well known. Uh, what are the options?

[00:59:39] John Waihee: Well, I think the the President and I have discussed, you know, a number of occasions, uh various things. I haven't I haven't really accepted anything. Um I think an ambassadorship uh or something along that lines in this region is much more exciting than some of the other things we have talked about. with the exception of secretary of of transportation. I kept telling him, I said, Bill, you really want to make me happy. Off of me Piña's job so I can straighten out the mess up there. But he's never done that. Now, you know, I'm saying this because I really don't know. We haven't assign the the the I have two thoughts on the matter and I'll be uh real short about that. One thought is that something like an ambassadorship or others would give me a chance to continue, you know, in public service. And the other hand, um maybe, you know, after a certain period of time, some of us ought to get back into private life and and be normal and let let other people into the public service arena. And you know, so there there possibilities both ways, and we haven't done it. The one thing I do know and my and bring and bringing tears to my son's eyes, you know, I'm not going to be bishop state trustee. Now, other than that, there a whole lot of options. You know, let me stay something running though. One of the problems I think in the future. We just, we have to make politics a noble profession. Okay? And part of that is insisting that we have great ethics, and we we do things like restricting lobbyists and all of and and all of this. The other thing is that we also need, but we need to do more than that. We need to make this profession attractive again. We need to make it so that people, the best people, want to be in the job. That we're not always facing choices that are what's the, you know, the least Mhm. harm going to be to me, if I you know, how what's the the best of bad choices.

[01:01:35] Randall Roth: I I agree completely, and you've got 15 seconds to tell us how to do that.

[01:01:39] John Waihee: Well, I think one way you can do that is by doing what you're doing here. We we need to get back and get beyond. There's a certain You know, obviously, insist on good ethics. But then, you know, make believe in people. I mean, start going at on the and finding people. Make the make the process noble again.

[01:02:05] Randall Roth: Governor Waihee, you've been a a great sport. I I told you at the beginning of this program we would talk about the high points of your administration, and then uh I gave you a tough time for an hour. I really do want to encourage people to take a look at at the booklet called The Hopes and Accomplishments of the Waihee Administration, and indeed there are many, many things to be proud of in that. Uh my guest today was Governor John Waihee. The program was produced by Susie Roth. Phone calls were taken by Jenny and Malia Tanji with technical support from Jeff Ailardi. We had some technical problems and we apologize for that. The fact that almost all of the calls were from the neighbor Islands suggests that uh having KHPR down was was a real problem for us. Please tune in next week when Dr. Frank Abusaf and Dr. George Bussi will be here talking about health care reform, and especially how the Clinton proposals might impact on us here in Hawaii. And as usual, you'll have an opportunity to call in your questions and comments. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Ross. Aloha.

[01:02:14] Randall Roth: Uh my guest today was Governor John Waihee. The program was produced by Suzy Roth. Phone calls were taken by Jenny and Malia Tanji with technical support from Jeff Ilardi. We had some technical problems and we apologize for that. The fact that almost all of the calls were from the neighbor island suggests that uh having HPR down was was a real problem for us. Please tune in next week when Dr. Frank Abusaif and Dr. George Bussey will be here talking about healthcare reform, and especially how the Clinton proposals might impact on us here in Hawaii. And as usual, you'll have an opportunity to call in your questions and comments.

[01:02:50] Randall Roth: You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Ross. Aloha.