Hawaii's Environment
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-10-30
Guests: Bruce Anderson (Director of Environmental Health, State Department of Health); Susan Miller (environmental consultant)
Duration: 1:01:30

[00:00:00] Bruce Voss: as we with the state and at least two counties. It's no secret that we residents see two sharply contrasting pictures of Hawaii's environment. The first, promoted by our visitor industry, features crystal clear water and pristine beaches, while the other picture, as seen in big newspaper headlines, shows sewage spills and toxic emissions from leaky incinerators. To help us separate fact from fantasy, we have two expert guests today. Dr. Bruce Anderson has been the state's Deputy Director for Environmental Health for the last 7 years. Next month, he takes a new job as Assistant Managing Director for the City and County of Honolulu, overseeing management of the city's environmental programs.
[00:00:37] Bruce Voss: Our other guest, Susan Miller, has worked on environmental issues with the Sierra Club and the Natural Resources Defense Council. Currently, she's a consultant to the Hawaii Coastal Protection Project, helping the state develop a plan to control pollution runoff. We welcome your questions or comments on Hawaii's environment. Our number here is 955-8821, Neighbor Islanders call collect. Again, our number is 955-8821. Bruce, let me start with you. It seems to me, at least, that in this year's campaign for governor there's been relatively little attention paid to environmental issues. Does that mean that people are generally happy with the state of the environment, or just that the issues aren't sexy enough for a 30-second TV ad?
[00:01:22] Bruce Anderson: Bruce, I think the candidates have been focusing on the issues that other issues that the public's concerned about, education, cost of living, crime, and I don't believe that reflects necessarily that they aren't concerned about the environment. Certainly, my sense is the public's still very concerned about environmental quality. I think it has more to do with what what polls are suggesting are the major public concerns. All the candidates have come up with with different statements on the environment and everyone is saying that it's important, but few have had a clear position on what needs to be done.
[00:02:05] Bruce Anderson: And certainly, I think more, more attention needs to be paid to what we're going to be doing in the future.
[00:02:11] Bruce Voss: Susan, as a longtime activist in this field, has that bothered you at all that, at least in this race, which people out in the state believe is one of the most important in decades, there has not been a lot of attention and a not a lot of detail in the environmental plans of the candidates?
[00:02:28] Susan Miller: It bothers me, but it doesn't surprise me. My sense is that particularly when economic times are stiffer, harder, people tend to think about, you know, and to talk about and be most concerned about those issues that touch their pocketbooks most directly. And I think the environment doesn't look like that kind of an issue to a lot of people. So they don't see it as, you know, as a primary issue. And yet my sense is that the polls that have been done, at least nationally, still indicate that people rate environment quite high as an issue and, you know, are willing to contribute to doing something about it financially.
[00:03:06] Susan Miller: But again, it's it's not the highest thing when the economy's a question.
[00:03:11] Bruce Voss: Well, speaking of issues that don't directly touch your pocketbook, I know one of your big concerns is something called non-point source pollution, and I I would bet that most people in our audience probably don't know exactly what that mean, means. So could you explain briefly in in layman's terms, what is non-point source pollution, and why do you consider it such a big problem?
[00:03:31] Susan Miller: Well, I guess the simplest way for me to think about it is that um when the rain falls, you know, on the tops of our islands, generally speaking, it's falling on a fairly balanced environment. And as it progresses down the hill, um it's going to pick up and carry with it whatever it encounters. So if it encounters um a an area that has been um disturbed in the forest by um by feral ungulates, by pigs, or or or on rockier soil by goats, it's going to pick up the soil and whatever else is with the soil.
[00:04:10] Susan Miller: That's going to end up in the streams when it goes further down, or when it falls lower down as rain, it's going to pick up whatever we've left on our driveways and in our lawns and and on our agricultural fields. And essentially, it's going to end up in in the ocean. And to the extent that our economy, our tourist economy is built on those pristine waters that you mentioned earlier, um it it has in many places already impacted um that activity and it can a lot more. And so the basic, I think basically, we're not talking rocket science here, it's it's a go we could mind like to say.
[00:04:51] Susan Miller: Uh, we're talking simple things, uh, in many cases for for for the ordinary citizen.
[00:04:57] Bruce Voss: Bruce, um, in in terms of what the state has been doing and maybe what the city might be doing in the future, what are the sort of the plans that have been laid out to address this problem of of non-point source pollution?
[00:05:09] Bruce Anderson: Well Susan point out points out, it's a relatively, um, simple problem at least in terms of, uh, the solutions, but it it's a difficult problem from the standpoint of requiring, uh, a lot of coordination. The state, uh, is beginning to take a watershed management approach to, uh, protecting our nearshore water quality.
[00:05:31] Bruce Anderson: This involves a integrated approach where we're not only, uh, controlling end of the pipe discharges from sewage outfalls and other discharges but, but, but also looking at construction activities in an area, um, uh, trying to educate the public on, on the problems associated with carelessly disposing of used motor oil and solvents, uh, paints, and other things that might get into the waterways and ultimately into the ocean. For example, uh, few people know where storm drains go. Most people think when you throw something down a storm drain, it disappears or ends up in a sewer plant. It doesn't, it goes straight to the beach.
[00:06:08] Bruce Anderson: And, um, we've been, uh, trying to be sure that people recognize the impact of what what they're doing. In fact, one of the projects that we've undertaken on Oahu that I hope will be implemented in other islands is a storm drain stenciling project where we post, uh, signs on the storm drain saying, "Dump no waste, goes to the beach." Which is absolutely, uh, the case. This is a, uh, project though that requires a lot of coordination, a lot of manpower. And the major problem we've had is in finding funds to support the, uh, the coordination that's necessary.
[00:06:42] Bruce Anderson: We have a pilot project on Maui, uh, major project actually, almost a million dollars is going into, uh, the, uh, Lihaina, uh, Ka'anapali watershed management project. Uh, we've hired a coordinator and I have a number of activities going on there. We hope to start up a project here on Oahu, uh, around the Awa. In fact, uh, we've reprogrammed some fines from the city and county to, uh, to hire a watershed coordinator and, and to support the water quality monitoring that's going to be necessary.
[00:07:12] Bruce Voss: I see we have a caller on the line, uh, Chuck from Maui, what's your question or comment?
[00:07:17] Chuck: Uh, some of us are a bit concerned here with the park situation that's being created on the North Shore and decimating the green line and the air dam. I'm sure some of your people might be familiar with, um, World War II research by the Army Corps of Engineers. They um, discovered the wind damage from storms that were happening in tropical islands when the coastal greenery was disrupted. And that's happening very heavily here right now in a county uh, park effort. Are your people by any chance familiar with that particular research by the Army Corps?
[00:07:58] Bruce Voss: Uh, let me ask, anyone familiar with that problem? Um, it sounds logical, but I've not heard of it.
[00:08:04] Chuck: Okay, my first knowledge of that was through um, Bill Mollison from Tasmania, who's a permaculture expert who teaches in universities around the world. And uh, it seems that in heavy storms, the green line or the tree line sort of serves as a um, air dam or uh, creates back pressure. So that this helps keep the waves down. Without this, the waves eat more and more into the shoreline. And we've seen this happen in uh, Kihei, Kalama Park for instance on Maui some 15 or 20 years, I don't have the exact date. No, it was over 20 years ago, maybe 20 or 30.
[00:08:44] Chuck: They disrupted the green there and now we have a rock berm to hold the park in place and the beach is simply gone. And we see this happening in other places such as the uh, North Shore Kanaha park area, by the sewer plant that's being done now. They're just clearing too severely and I've talked to one of our county conservation people there, and they're only concerned with trees 30 ft in, I think from the high watermark. But they're ignoring, well, if you could see before and after videos, it's pretty horrendous here.
[00:09:25] Bruce Voss: Go on.
[00:09:26] Bruce Anderson: This is uh, Bruce, um, on Mo, I went to Molokai last week and I saw some of the uh, problem that you're describing. Um, on Molokai, there there's a project underway to restore fish ponds. And these fish ponds actually, um, uh, basically serve as revetments, seawalls, if you will, where we're seeing down current of the fish walls, um, a lot of erosion along the shoreline. I saw places where ironwoods, which had been there for obviously 50, maybe 100 years, um, had fallen into the ocean, Right. Because of the erosion along the beaches, but I I see this as a uh, major problem that relates to shoreline stabilization.
[00:10:01] Bruce Anderson: Clearly the the tree roots are are important in holding in, uh, sand and and other materials, and and uh, certainly seawalls are going to be uh, uh, cause of some of these types of problems, and it's something now we need to get after. Unfortunately, it's uh, there is no state agency that's really, uh, clearly uh, charged with the responsibility of assuring, uh, shoreline stabilization. The Corps of Engineers is really the lead on this and and uh, it's one of those issues where I think, uh, there needs to be better state and federal coordination.
[00:10:35] Chuck: Exactly, and I think we need to be more on top of it here as citizens too. Uh, for instance, I've mentioned to the Department of Transportation, their airport project here has decimated the, uh, coastal green line. And that's leaving us wide open to major erosion and I guess we're going to have to map and, uh, redo the old research because it's happening again as we're going to lose these areas and we're just not on on top of it enough. It also, you know, when it's taking out the beaches, it's also decimating the marine life and the reefs in that area.
[00:11:14] Bruce Voss: Thanks a lot for your uh, your comment, Chuck. I appreciate your call very much.
[00:11:17] Bruce Anderson: Thank you for the program.
[00:11:18] Bruce Voss: Thank you. Bye-bye. Let's go to line two. Steve from Hawaii Kai. What's your question or comment?
[00:11:23] Caller: All right. I have a a three-part question. In broad general terms, is it accurate to define the problem as maintaining in the islands a reasonably stable and diverse ecosystem and an aesthetically attractive natural environment? Question two. If so, does the long-term solution involve control of or limits on human population as the key? And question three. Given that the geographic isolation of these islands offers a great natural advantage in any program of population control, and given that this advantage is effectively neutralized by our status as one of the United States.
[00:12:08] Caller: Should we not seek to join to the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, a movement to secede from the USA, so that we can exploit the advantage of geographic isolation in solving the central problem of ecological and environmental health?
[00:12:23] Bruce Voss: Well, uh leaving aside the problems of the privileges and immunities clause of the US Constitution, let's uh, let's address the uh, problems, Susan.
[00:12:31] Susan Miller: That's uh a large piece to bite on. I guess what I would say is in theory, I think your idea has, you know, has some some basis. In practicality, um, I personally think that we do have to deal with the fact that islands are finite environments. And I am not convinced that we can accept all the people who want to live there at the quality of life that the islands have had. I think that maybe where we have to start drawing our lines, if that's what people want. The problem is that we very rarely have opportunities for all of the people to get together and decide what they want.
[00:13:25] Susan Miller: I think there are just so many different viewpoints on this, that it's going to be different difficult to come to a single conclusion.
[00:13:31] Bruce Anderson: Dr. Anderson, uh, let me ask you, I think part implicit in in Steve's question is, uh, have our islands reached a their so-called carrying capacity? I mean, in in this balance between the ecosystem and human needs, um, have we reached the maximum point yet? In your opinion, have we? There's been a lot of talk about carrying capacity and sustainable development, and I've yet to find a good definition for what our population can support, or our islands can support in terms of population. But um, I I think that may be, may or may not be uh, uh, an important question.
[00:14:09] Bruce Anderson: I think I think one of the things that I I see that needs to be emphasized more, as we look toward accommodating, uh, population growth, is um, proper land use planning. In fact, I've often held Bruce that uh, um, we're we're a lot of the money we're spending on environmental clmp compliance would probably be better spent assuring proper land use planning. Uh, certainly you can't separate housing issues from environmental issues, uh, um, um, degraded land and water from unplanned development, uh, uh, is a is a problem that it's almost impossible to get to with with current regulations.
[00:14:48] Bruce Anderson: I think uh, proper land use planning would probably be more much more important, uh, in ensuring environmental protection and economic sustainability than than, uh, additional regulatory controls. And I think a, an increased focus needs to be placed on that, but I don't know that we could say, um, with any certainty how much of a population Hawaii can support in terms of numbers of people. I think it's more a question of at this point at least of, of where that growth should occur and how.
[00:15:19] Bruce Voss: Well, let me ask you, Steve. Are you still on the line?
[00:15:21] Caller: Yes.
[00:15:22] Bruce Voss: Um, what is your perception of the island's ability? And I don't mean to get into a numbers game here, but you talked about the balance, the diverse ecosystem and our our human population. How do you see that balance currently in Hawaii?
[00:15:34] Caller: Well, uh, many years ago, a fellow named Earl Babbi wrote a book called "Maximilian," which addressed that issue and his position, he was a sociologist at the UH at the UH. His position was that the, uh, carrying capacity of the islands, versus a reasonable quality of life here, uh, was somewhere around a million. And of course, we've exceeded that. Uh, I don't know what it is and it's really a, um, a relative question depending upon how you define quality of life and what standards you require for a, a desirable quality of life.
[00:16:15] Caller: As as Bruce Anderson said, there probably is no definitive answer to it, but, uh, as population increases, uh, my position is that quality of life, um, is going to decline.
[00:16:29] Susan Miller: Um, could I speak to that? Go ahead, Susan. Um, I think the one thing that I try to bear in mind when I'm when I'm thinking about these issues is that we're not all at the same place economically. And so, you know, what I would consider disturbing to my quality of life, somebody else might say, "Hey, I wish I was in your shoes." And so, again, I think it comes to a point where I would agree with Bruce, I think land use planning is very important, but at some point, we do have to decide, you know, do we really want Los Angeles on Oahu?
[00:17:07] Susan Miller: It's a long, you know, it's a long time coming, but do we want it? I think that's, we we've got to make some, in order to do our land use planning, we have to know where we want to go. And I guess what I'm saying is I don't think that collectively we do have a sense as a state, as a population of the state, where we want to go.
[00:17:25] Bruce Voss: Thanks a lot for your uh call, Steve. Appreciate it very, very much. Um, you're listening to The Price of Paradise Radio Show, and our topic this week is the State of the Environment. Our guests are State Deputy Health Director Bruce Anderson and environmental activist Susan Miller. The number to call with your questions or comments on the environment is 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders call collect. Again, the number is 955-8821. Bruce, so one of the problems that we see quite often in the headlines is, uh, solid waste disposal. Uh, it seems to me that, uh, we have, uh, landfills filling up here.
[00:18:01] Bruce Voss: Um, no one wants a landfill in their backyard, certainly, particularly here on Oahu and there's not a whole lot of space. Um, and then we have the problem of the city's incinerator, uh, closing down, permanently, the Waipahu incinerator. What sorts of programs are underway or need to be underway to address this problem?
[00:18:19] Bruce Anderson: Well, this is the, uh, it's the crisis of the week. Uh, certainly, uh, the shutdown of the Waipahu incinerator, uh, has raised to, uh, a higher level of consciousness the need to, uh, effectively manage our solid waste. It's my understanding that, uh, that our H power facility, which, uh, converts much of the, uh, combustible waste to energy, uh, is not going to be able to handle most of the, uh, waste, or, or much of the waste that's generated now that the Waipahu incinerator is shut down, which is going to require that more attention be paid toward waste diversion activities, um, waste minimization activities, and and, and recycling here in in the. Certainly here on Oahu.
[00:19:03] Bruce Anderson: The city has already aggressively begun to divert green waste from the landfills. There are, in fact, requirements now that that that green waste be taken to recyclers where they're chipped up and and composted, which I think is a a great project. It it produces a useful material and helps preserve the areas in the landfills. But I think a lot more can be done in terms of making recycling centers more available, more convenient to the public. One of the programs that we've been involved with over the last 6 months with the city is in trying to find ways the public can can dispose of potentially toxic materials from their household waste.
[00:19:51] Bruce Anderson: It's we've been telling people that they can't put these things down sewers and and into storm drains, but so far we haven't really given the public much of an alternative. In fact, my dad brought a quart of diazinon to my house because he couldn't find any place to take it. It ended up sitting on my shelf for almost a year and I ended up knocking it off with my elbow when I was changing a lightbulb.
[00:20:19] Bruce Anderson: It sort of typifying the the the frustration people have had over the years in dealing with some of these toxic materials, but there is a program now being developed to provide convenient centers for people to take household hazardous waste, the solvents, and paints, and other things that might otherwise go into storm drains or into landfills and and affect our groundwater.
[00:20:44] Bruce Anderson: But I think looking at some of the more bulky waste, glass and so forth, there are more opportunities for recycling these materials in a cost-effective manner. Many of these programs though are going to require a subsidy. Glass, for example, is a commodity that is difficult to recycle without some added cost. There's a new penny and a half per bottle law in place now where we are going to be collecting a penny and a half for every glass container that comes into the state. That money is going to go into subsidizing using glass and roadways, glass fault they call it and perhaps use that material and other for other purposes.
[00:21:26] Bruce Voss: We have several callers on the line now. Please wait and and we'll try to get to all of you. Let's go to line one I guess, Alisa from Makiki. What's your question or comment?
[00:21:36] Caller: I was listening earlier when you were talking about developing some sense of the carrying capacity for the islands and what kind of quality of life we want. And I wondered where the State Land Use Commission figures in this, since it seems to be uniformly reviled, at least in the rhetoric for the elections now, but what do we do if we don't have a central planning operation and how might we handle this?
[00:22:00] Susan Miller: Well, first I have to say that I'm very much in favor of what's often been called the two button system, that is that there is a state presence in major land use planning through the Land Use Commission or something similar. And one of my reasons has been that the counties get the revenue from the real property tax and so they therefore there is therefore a questionable linkage between their what they would permit. Um, so I believe that that the Land Use Commission or something like it should remain in place. If you don't have that, then I think that you're going to have to have, frankly, I think the citizens are going to have to watch much more closely, um, what the counties plan and what they permit, what they propose to permit.
[00:22:47] Bruce Voss: And Alisa, is it is it your your position that the Land Use Commission should be retained as sort of an environmental buffer for the state general plans?
[00:22:54] Caller: I'm completely confused. My sense is that people feel that they're inadequate or corrupt or just unreliable. Yet it's hard for me to imagine not having some sort of master philosophy or plan.
[00:23:06] Susan Miller: Well, the problem is we don't have a master philosophy or plan. Quite frankly, our planning, much of our planning actually occurs in reaction to proposals. And I think that's part of the concern with the Land Use Commission. You've got to remember, they do not have a very big technical staff at all. They are they're lay people who are appointed to this commission. They have a very small planning staff. And so they really have to depend on what's brought before them. And what's brought before them is brought by the proponents of those who want to change land say from agriculture to urban. The counties are automatically parties, but um, know they the and sometimes the counties will, you know, will support a proposal and sometimes they won't. But um, I think I think we do lack a master planning if you will, or or, I mean, even even on a county level we have what we call county general plans but they are very theoretical and development plans at least on the island of Oahu have become almost zoning plans. There's really very much little difference. But it's it's a lot of it is really driven by by those who come who have the money, who come who or the and or the land who want to do something.
[00:24:15] Bruce Voss: Thanks for your uh thanks for your call Alisa. Let's go to line two. Evan from Oahu, what's your question or comment?
[00:24:24] Evan: Yes. Um, I have a question about the uh basic issue of this program. Yes. Um, basically about the environment. I should say that the hotels and other resorts on the beaches should actually worry about their problem rather than the um politicians because uh the other day, um I just came back from Kona and everything, and that's all I saw was well, I out like on the mainland in the mountains. And um and and your concern with the hotels is what exactly, Evan?
[00:24:56] Evan: Uh, basically, the hotels should actually worry about the environment problem because there's not a politician. There's not a political problem because the hotels are the ones that are on the beaches, not the um not the normal regular people, not the natives that are um or like the common people are on the beaches living there. So, it's actually a hotel problem rather than the political problem.
[00:25:05] Bruce Voss: Well, let's uh let's look to Dr. Bruce Anderson. Uh, Hotels the big problem, doctor?
[00:25:23] Bruce Anderson: Well, I think the uh visitor industry is generally recognizing that uh economic viability the viability of their business is is entirely dependent on environmental quality. In fact, the Hawaii Visitors Bureau has a environment committee now. It's a relatively new committee just a couple of years old, and they've sponsored a a number of conferences um looking at different issues uh energy conservation, recycling, and and uh and waste minimization. Uh so they they are picking up on the fact that uh it's their problem as as much as anyone else's, and in fact they're probably uh more affected than anyone else when when things go wrong. Certainly um the impact of a catastrophic oil spill in the visitor industry would be substantial. We had a survey done looking at uh what what an impact would be if a tanker uh went aground off Barber's Point and the oil came ashore Waikiki, and the the cost to the visitor industry and the indirect cost to the rest of the community were was in the billions of dollars. In fact 5 or 6 billion dollars as I recall. Um um that's a economic loss that the state would probably take decades to recover from. So they're they're picking up on this fact, and hopefully they'll be more involved in keeping Oahu and the other islands green, making sure we have greenways, and and I hope someday they'll wise up to the fact that people aren't coming here to see concrete, that they're that they're uh that they're uh really um coming here to see uh a blue ocean, uh clear sky, and and a few trees here and there.
[00:27:06] Bruce Voss: Thanks a lot for your call, Evan, we really appreciate it. Let's go to line three. Ed from Makiki. Uh, what's your question or comment?
[00:27:10] Caller: Yeah, my question is being a lifetime resident, I've been hearing the same tune more or less for the last uh 40 years or so. What I see is the crux of the problem is the enormous concentration, the growing concentration of all human activity right here in Oahu in contrast with a I'm on board a whole gangplank of attitude that they do find on the neighbor islands for good reason, perhaps. I think one of the best things that could be done is to point out the fundamental changes to the general population in our economy, the decline in plantation agriculture being one of the greatest events that are going on right now in the especially in the neighbor islands. And I think that you have to point out what the economic realities are and what the possibilities are rather than the type of micromanaging that you see going on that has already been talked about, uh, let's say in the Land Use Commission. So there's my situation.
[00:28:02] Bruce Voss: Well, Susan Miller, let me ask you, um, with the sugar plantations going down, I mean all that land becoming available, what kind of either environmental opportunities or environmental dangers do you see over the next decade?
[00:28:16] Susan Miller: Well, I think I I I think that answer to that question depends a little bit on where you are physically located. In other words, on Oahu, it may mean one thing, on the neighbor islands, it may mean another. Um I think on Oahu, it does provide the opportunity, and and frankly, I am I'm taken with the idea of of trying to develop um cluster communities on egg land that, you know, it's surrounded by agriculture and rather than trying to say, okay, you know, we've got an Emlani, we'll just sort of spread out from Emlani. But that um that the land could be used that way. It could also be used that way on the neighbor islands, but I guess what I'm not clear about is um you know, what kind of economies could be developed. We have a concentration of the economy on Oahu, and I think that's why we continue to get more people on Oahu besides the fact that the neighbor islands want to protect what they see as a lifestyle that at least a lot of people there like.
[00:29:21] Bruce Anderson: Yeah I'm I'm glad this question was raised because I I think it is a a critical juncture in our in our history now that these lands are being freed up, water resources are being freed up for other uses. There's a tremendous potential to exploit this situation uh from a standpoint of development, at the same time it provides a wonderful opportunity for for planning um if we do it right. I I agree with Susan that um this this idea of cluster communities uh where you have forested areas between communities which um uh or agricultural areas uh to buffer uh uh some of the development that that would otherwise occur is is a a wonderful concept that we should be looking into further rather than further urban sprawl, which is what typically has happened here on Oahu when agricultural lands have been freed up. Water water uh issues are are of course uh are uh central to this situation. Much of the land that's now going fallow was then been cultivated in sugar. Sugar is a relatively water intensive crop, and and what's happening is we're freeing up a lot of our water resources now that could be used for other other purposes. This controversy related to the Waihole Ditch uh is is a prime example where we in a in essence have uh a tremendous water resource that's being uh freed up now that um could be used for a number of of purposes um one of which might be to help uh restore uh flows to some of the native streams which were diverted in the past. And at the same time, I think uh could could be used to support uh uh viable agriculture in the in the in the state.
[00:31:01] Bruce Voss: And and Ed, do you agree with those perceptions? Well, I'll come right down to the Waihole ditch. I've done some study on this subject. I'd advise all concerned to be very careful before you withdraw the recharging effect of the Waihole ditch on this uh Pearl Harbor aquifer, because it is by far the most heavily drafted aquifer in the state. Uh, don't injure that one unnecessarily. Thank you.
[00:31:24] Bruce Voss: Thank you very much, Ed. And none of us want to be drinking salt water with our Sunday coffee. Uh, you're listening to The Price of Paradise Radio show. Our topic this week is the state of the environment, and our guests are Deputy State Health Director Bruce Anderson, and environmental activist Susan Miller. The number to call with your questions or comments on the environment is 955-8821. Neighbor islanders, call collect. Again, the number is 955-8821. Dr. Anderson, one of the, I guess perpetual problems has been uh funding for environmental protection and environmental enforcement, and I noticed one of the candidates, I won't mention who it is, uh proposed uh quote uh substantial taxes on anyone who generates hazardous wastes, discharges pollutions into our waters, and sells pesticides. Are those additional taxes a good idea above and beyond the penalties we now can impose?
[00:32:17] Bruce Anderson: One of the uh major problems we've had uh over the last year is is is is uh complying with uh unfunded federal mandates, basically programs that are thrust on the state without adequate uh federal funds. Uh, we have we had proposed uh uh pollution fees uh as one way to to generate those funds, and uh in many states are also pursuing that. For example, um um there is a air pollution fee in in place now where we actually assess um $43 a ton for every ton of air pollutant that's emitted from a major source. That money goes towards supporting our environmental protection programs. Um, at the same time, it provides a deterrent to pollute. It's it's cheaper for the company if they don't pollute because they don't have to pay. Um the idea has been proposed that uh uh fees also be uh charged for water dischargers, for people who produce uh hazardous wastes, and even pesticides. I think there's a a reasonable uh balance here where uh some fees make sense, others others simply don't. But certainly, uh um funding for our environmental programs has been a a a critical issue over over the years and that's a a viable way of of raising those funds. One other uh idea that was floated last year to the legislature that um um no one seemed to be willing to to implement was a gas tax where you'd be looking at uh imposing a a penny or half a cent on a gallon to support our environmental programs. That generates a tremendous amount of money, and the nexus was that we use a lot of gasoline. Gasoline, in turn, causes a a number of environmental problems, or at least petroleum products uh cause problems that would justify our our taxing that as a means to support broad based environmental programs. I think that idea does continue to have merit. We now have a 5 cent per barrel tax on all the oil coming into the state that's used for environmental response activities. Just 2 days ago we um hauled a ship off the rocks in in um uh Ke'ei Lagoon. I'm sorry, this is in Ke'olo Basin, uh using that that money's derived from that tax. It was emitting uh there was 10,000 gallons of fuel aboard the ship when it went down and we used the money to take the the the the gas off, the diesel off the ship and and to tow it out to sea and sink it. Um but but up up to about 2 years ago we that that fishing boat would have still been on the rocks, leaking oil, so it's a taxes do help and uh in this case uh that that 5 cent per barrel tax has gone a long way toward assuring our environment's protected.
[00:35:05] Bruce Voss: We have several callers on the line. Let's go to line one, Judy from Kailua. What's your question or comment?
[00:35:11] Caller: Well, my concern has been, if Steve Holmes loses in this election, we would have a pro-development City Council, and if so, what would you what effect would you see that having on our environmental condition here?
[00:35:26] Bruce Voss: Well, Susan, without maybe directly commenting on the Joe Picard or Stephen Holmes race, um, what effect would a council which has, I guess, perhaps five pro-development votes have in the short-term and long-term on Hawaii's or Oahu's uh environment?
[00:35:42] Susan Miller: I've never found a crystal ball. So I have no way of knowing what that would be. I think by by, you know, the the presumption that such a council would be pro-development, we are we are sort of visualizing that there would be more development permitted, perhaps in some of those freed sugar lands that were being discussed earlier. Uh that some of the water that's being freed up by that um change in agricultural use would be going more it would be going to housing. Um possibly that we would um have more roads if we have more housing further away from the center of employment, which is basically downtown Honolulu still. Uh, there's going to have to be either roads or or a mass transit system.
[00:36:36] Bruce Voss: Uh Judy, um in your vision or I guess your fears of what might happen, what do you see as the worst-case scenario if um the City Council does turn, as you fear, a pro-development?
[00:36:48] Caller: Well, I think they would um do things to make make it more attractive and easier for big developers to come in and maybe take the North Shore and put more huge hotels out there and just have maybe twice the amount of tourists here that we have. Um I fear losing Hawaii as it is right now.
[00:37:13] Susan Miller: Um, I would say this, the City Council like any political body, responds to people who come before it. And so if people feel that the City Council is not going in the right direction, the best thing you can do is phone them up and tell them so. Go down and tell them so. Talk to them when they come to your neighborhood boards. Uh, it's partly what happens is up to us. And if we sit back and say and and and basically say, well, it's going to happen because the election has gone a certain way, I would say it may happen, but it will definitely happen if we don't express ourselves.
[00:37:51] Bruce Voss: Thanks a lot for your comment, Judy. We appreciate it very much. Number to call with your questions or comments on the environment is 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders call collect. Again, the number is 955-8821. Let's go to line two. Charlie from Manoa, what's your question or comment?
[00:38:14] Caller: Hi. Um, I just heard, I guess it was a couple of weeks ago, about a report released by the Center for Real Estate Research at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Um, a report that said that Hawaii or Oahu, in particular, can tolerate um something like 30 more golf courses. And I was wondering if um both of the guests had heard about this report. Um, you know, whether that is in fact the analysis that they present, and what what they think about it. And then secondly, I heard that the report cost $100 to obtain. Um, and I think that's symptomatic of how information is being um kept from certain portions of the population and made available to others. So, if you could comment on both of those aspects of the topic.
[00:41:19] Bruce Voss: Susan Miller, any additional comments?
[00:41:22] Susan Miller: Well, in the first place, if that study was funded by public funds, there is a state law that requires that 15 copies go to the Hawaii Document Center at the state library and they are distributed to the regional libraries. So uh, now unless that was the I do not know what the funding for the center, the real estate center at the university is. But if it was funded with public funds, I do not believe that they have the right to limit that and require a payment in order to get it. Um, as far as, you know, whether Oahu could tolerate 30 more golf courses, um I would would agree with Dr. Anderson, I think a great deal of it is a question of economic viability. So far, it's my impression at least that many of the golf courses that have been built um have not been economically viable without you know, some form of subsidy. It seems to usually end up in or in many cases ends up being housing around the golf courses. So I think that's another reason people are concerned about them is that they see them as the camel's nose in the tent to development, particularly in areas that aren't developed already.
[00:42:21] Bruce Voss: Thanks for your uh call, uh Charlie. Appreciate it very much. We have a call from the neighbor islands, uh Philip from the Big Island. What's your question or comment?
[00:42:39] Philip: The uh, comment is on the Big Island and I suppose the rest of the islands, the uh, subsidy for recycling of glass, newspaper, aluminum, and so on, has been removed. And yet, on the Big Island, Hilo, Kona, and the major population centers are developing landfills. What I want to know is, has the state done a comparison cost between continuing on this recycling subsidy and the cost for developing new landfills?
[00:43:10] Bruce Anderson: Uh Dr. Anderson? Well, landfill costs are are increasing every day as new regulations are imposed. Um, it's very difficult to um to assess the actual cost of a of a particular material like glass, um a bulky material, where we don't have a good estimate of the total volume. Um, it's generally felt that um that it's cheaper to recycle materials than it is to landfill them. And in fact, um um that's really the basis of our of our uh pursuing this subsidy. Uh there is a immediate cost which is associated associated with the construction of the landfill. And by the way, that's probably quadrupled over the last uh five years because of these new EPA regulations. But there is the uh indirect costs uh associated with landfilling like uh the the uh restrictions on the use of that land in the future. Um land is a very valuable commodity here in the state obviously and and it's hard to to assess a future value of of land which um now is being used as landfill or or might in the future be used. As we close landfills, um the use of those lands are are highly restricted uh usually to parks and so forth at best. Um, but certainly um uh there's a uh cost associated with maintaining those landfills indefinitely. Uh some people don't realize it but as we close these landfills, we're going to have to pay to to uh keep them uh uh from polluting the environment, uh maintaining gas collection systems uh probably 50, 100 years, maybe far far into the future. So um, answer quick answer is no, we haven't really looked at the cost comparisons but certainly it's been um everyone's presumption that it's cheaper to recycle materials even with a small subsidy than it is to to landfill them.
[00:45:09] Philip: Well, thank you very much. I they um I I have a difficult time seeing the logic in building landfills and not recycling. So thank you very much.
[00:45:20] Bruce Voss: Thank you very much for your call, Philip. You're listening to the radio show to the environment. The number to call with your questions or comments for our guest, state health state Deputy Health Director Bruce Anderson, and the environmental expert Susan Miller is 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders call collect. Again, the number to call with your questions or comments on the environment is 955-8821. Susan, Oh, I'm go ahead, Susan.
[00:48:22] Susan Miller: Um, I'd like to follow up on Philip's question. Um again, those subsidies, as I recall, were presented to the legislature. Um and if people want to see subsidies for recycling, they're going to have to let their legislators know that. I mean, the legislators hear from those who don't want to see those subsidies because they see it as an economic assessment against their business. But if if the citizenry wants the funds to be available to subsidize recycling and therefore have less of their taxes go to landfills, they've got to let the legislators know that. And I I just really encourage people to recognize that they do not have to sit back and let the legislature go its merry way. Legislators respond particularly to their constituents. So I encourage you. If if this is something that's an issue with you, bring it up. Uh, you know, the the state is usually fairly open once the budget is released to the legislature about what they're asking for. And uh so, you know, it gets in the paper. If there's something you see in the paper that you think is a good idea, be sure and let your legislator know, cuz otherwise they're not going to be hearing that from those who see this as an assessment against their economic business.
[00:48:32] Bruce Anderson: Dr. Anderson, let's begin with you. I don't I don't know if you've seen that study, but uh generally, I mean, could the island support 30 more golf courses? I can't afford $100. I'm just kidding aside. Um first, let me say I I I would be surprised if the university would charge a fee like that for a report that they that it was commissioned uh with state monies. But having said that, um I haven't seen the report. Um, but I wouldn't be surprised if a report found that. Um, I remember at one point we had uh uh plans on our desks at the health department for over 50 golf courses around the state. Um, most of which were on Oahu but but but um spread throughout the state. So uh 30 would be uh certainly in line with uh um what I would expect uh might be ultimately pursued. Uh, I think it it's much a question of um economic viability as it is uh um land use and and and so forth. There's been a lot of controversy associated with golf courses and um uh the use of pesticides, herbicides, um some of their other um maintenance activities. One of one of the uh um primary concerns that I hear about is is the potential for pesticide used on golf courses to leach into our our drinking water supplies. And um as we've looked at the situation, we find that the pesticides um that golf courses typically use are not in our drinking water uh suggesting that that might not be a concern that is um perhaps as legitimate as some of the other concerns, like water and the amount of water the golf courses use or fertilizers used on golf courses. We are finding increased levels of nitrate and phosphorus in our drinking water supplies, which might be in part attributable to the heavy use of these these uh fertilizers on golf courses um if they get through the root zone, uh they they do ultimately end up in the groundwater. Ciguatera fish poisoning has been associated with golf courses indirectly and and many other problems have been tagged to golf courses which in large part haven't been borne out by further study. But it's a um it's going to be a continuing controversial issue, I'm sure.
[00:49:44] Bruce Voss: Let's go to the phones, uh line one, Andrew from Kailua. What's your a question or comment?
[00:49:48] Andrew: Yes, I would like to know what we can do to um better educate our politicians and our government officials about the need to preserve and conserve our streams, as they are vital lifelines. Nature has taken thousands and millions of years to create our streams and stream beds. Yet, we continue to grant the government permits to allow bulldozers and other environmentally devastating construction equipment, uh that irretrievably destroys our streams and stream banks for generations to come. And I'd like to know what we can do to help that situation.
[00:50:23] Bruce Voss: Well, thanks for that question, Andrew, because that is Susan Miller's uh principal interest. Susan?
[00:50:28] Susan Miller: Thank you, Bruce and thank you, Andrew. Um, I think you have to in in Hawaii you have to look at land at control of land use at two levels. One of them being the county. And um, the county has, a sitting county of Honolulu, has rather stringent controls on erosion and grading in theory and on paper. What they don't have is people to monitor that. Uh, so one of the things again, it's going to require, for example, that if the city department comes in, as I discovered they did, they were asking for four more people. But they never let the community know that. But when, you know, I think the community needs to watch for, to ask their uh, you know, legislators what's happening uh because part of those controls are there, they're simply not applied because there's nobody who can officially go and say, you know, you can't do that.
[00:51:25] Bruce Voss: Dr. Anderson is someone who's worked with the legislature for the last seven years and and and pretty effectively uh, how would you suggest this problem be addressed?
[00:51:35] Bruce Anderson: Let me just reiterate uh something Susan's been saying. Uh it gets pretty lonely at the conference table sometimes where we're uh In fact, there's a relatively hardcore but but committed group of people uh trying to push these ideas forward. Uh but often um we find ourselves um uh outnumbered by others who who would be advocates of of development and and um other activities. And the legislators are, as Susan points out, um responding to concerns they hear. If they hear more of the pro-development concerns than they do of the environmental concerns, they're going to respond accordingly. Likewise, with our budgets, I've often held that our budgets are shaped more by public opinion than they are by any real assessment of risks or or problems. And and uh, if you're not out there lobbying for funds, at least uh um letting your representatives know um what your concerns are, they're not going to be um addressed. Politicians don't have any more insight than you do, and they're going to respond to concerns that they hear. Don't don't think that any of them are going to be um uh, re coming up with their some come up with their own initiatives, but but by and large, politicians reflect what what they hear.
[00:52:52] Bruce Voss: Thanks a lot for your uh comment, Andrew. I Uh, could I just uh uh comment further, uh we have some fundamental errors which are in place here within government and until they're corrected, we can't do a much better job. That is for example, in our tax map keys, streams for the most part do not show. So property owners um, you know, can work in such a way that they can just cover the stream if they would like to and there are some outstanding blaring examples of that in Kani Ohee where whole developments have covered streams and converted them immediately into sewers. Also, with regard to our USGS maps, the streams are shown on their in light blue. So when the county Xerox those maps, again, they don't show. And with regard to grading permits, we'll find in the city and county of Honolulu for example, that in the department of public works, the engineering division, they rarely even review those plans. And the problem is that um in in the field then during construction, the setbacks of from streams are not or are rarely maintained. So we can talk about erosion controls and all those kinds of things, but that time, it's too late because the the bulldozers and the grading have been done to the edge of the streams, and that's disastrous. The streams include the stream banks as a part of the natural ecology, and the sooner we learn that in the department of health and also in the city and county, the better off we'll be.
[00:54:13] Bruce Voss: Thank you very much for that uh comment, Andrew. Uh, we have time for a couple more calls. We have about six minutes left in the show. Let's go to uh line three, Merrill from Maui, what's your a question or comment?
[00:54:24] Caller: Uh, yes, hello. My question concerns uh the um harvesting method of sugarcane here on the Maui whereby they burn the sugarcane. We're all very familiar with the big clouds of black smoke that and an ash that descend upon us on a regular basis over here. And there have been various studies uh that have come out earlier this year published in the Maui News, denying any link between the burning of sugarcane and respiratory difficulties. I, I wanted to ask the guests if they know of any alternative harvesting methods that are being explored now and um specifically um to the guest with the health department. I don't really understand how that can be, how people can deny that there's any link. I know from my children and myself when we go outside during these periods where there's a lot of cane ash falling, it's difficult to breathe. It makes you sneeze, makes your eyes water. So, how is it that um someone can come out and and deny any link between cane ash and any kind of health difficulties?
[00:55:18] Bruce Anderson: Dr. Anderson, briefly, I know this is a topic that you've studied.
[00:55:22] Bruce Anderson: I haven't personally done any of the studies, but uh I've reviewed a lot of the studies that have been done. In fact, we commissioned a study uh that the University of Hawaii is still finishing up, looking at cane burning and and what effects it might have on the population, specifically there on Maui. Uh hopefully, we'll get that report in the next uh month or two. Um this was some three years ago that we provided those funds. In any event, let me uh um dispel any any question that there is or is not a link. There is a link between cane burning and and and many chronic respiratory conditions. There's no question in my mind that cane smoke exacerbates existing chronic respiratory conditions. If you have asthma, emphysema, uh chronic bronchitis, or any of these conditions, if you're exposed to smoke, whether it's cane smoke or a burning uh immo or any other smoke, it's going to make those conditions worse. What we have not found, however, is is that cane smoke causes these conditions. Cane smoke, we don't think causes asthma. Although if you have asthma and you're exposed to cane smoke, you're going to have a more serious problem than if you don't. Even if you don't have a problem, it's going to cause eye irritation and other things, any particulate in the air will. Uh Likewise, it it the studies have not shown it that it that it cane smoke causes cancer or are many of the other chronic conditions that people are worried about. Um So it's a question of really defining what what the effects are of concern and and uh and being sure that we're we're doing what we can to minimize that. There is a uh um a study underway actually looking at the
[00:57:00] Speaker 1: ability of green harvest methods. The the biggest problem as I understand it is that uh it's very expensive to deal with sugarcane with with leaf trash co-mingled with the cane stocks which are subsequently ground up to uh produce the sugar. If they can figure out some way to extract some economic benefit from the the organic material that that would be processed along with the cane, I think that they will have a uh a win-win situation. Um that that's research is underway.
[00:57:34] Speaker 1: One of the big problems the sugar industry has, of course, is that they're right on the cusp economically. Like most of the companies are going down, and they don't have a lot of money to invest into research uh of of new technologies or to retool the existing sugar mills. So it's going to be a continuing challenge. We did apply for a grant from EPA to see if they could uh find help us with finding new ways to uh harvest cane so as to avoid burning. But I frankly think it's unlikely we're going to get that money. But certainly we we support pursuing uh aggressively alternatives to cane burning.
[00:58:07] Speaker 2: Thanks a lot for your call, Meryl. We we appreciate uh it very much. I think we have time for one more call. We have about two minutes left. Let's go to uh Russ from Honolulu.
[00:58:17] Speaker 3: Hello, is there a charge or excuse me, is the charge for dumping in say the Kailua landfill based on weight or bulk at present?
[00:58:26] Speaker 2: Uh briefly uh Susan, do you know?
[00:58:30] Speaker 4: Oh, I'm Dr. I I don't I don't know.
[00:58:32] Speaker 2: Okay, Dr. Anderson, it's based on tonnage weight. Based on tonnage.
[00:58:36] Speaker 3: All right. And uh is that sufficient that uh that subsidizing on a tonnage basis for glass would replace, you know, the garbage? Or is it a very small charge?
[00:58:52] Speaker 1: The the charge on on on glass is a as a penny and a half per container. Of course, the containers vary in size. You have a little perfume bottle is a small container, mayonnaise bottle or larger jug would be of course the same fee. Um um really the the the fee is is is intended to uh to subsidize uh uh recycling so that these wastes, that is glass specifically can be diverted and the support uh uh making glass uh into other products.
[00:59:24] Speaker 2: Thanks a lot for your for your call, Russ. We have about two minutes left, and I wanted to get to one topic real quickly that Susan Miller has a special expertise in. Alien species, as boa constrictors and and piranhas we find in the stream. Um, briefly, how serious a problem is that?
[00:59:39] Speaker 4: The problem is very serious, but it's not just the boa and the piranha. The problem is uh yellow sugarcane aphid, the problem is uh there's a two-spotted leaf hopper, if you live up in Manoa and you want to know what's happening to the trees up in the valley, a lot of that is an alien pest insect. Um there are there's perhaps a 100,000 acres covered with banana poka, uh particularly on the Big Island, and essentially what that means is that that land does not absorb rain the way it used to. It sheds rain.
[01:00:15] Speaker 4: Uh so the the things that get in the papers and the things that draw people's attention are very important because they draw their attention to the issue, but the issue is actually all over our state, and it has affected our economy to the tunes of millions of dollars.
[01:00:30] Speaker 2: Do you think enough is being done to combat the problem? I mean, beyond the obvious publicity that say the TV news gets or whatever.
[01:00:36] Speaker 4: Um, I suspect the the answer will never be enough, but one of the big problems that that I'm I'm working with TNCH, um, the Nature Conservancy right now, working with the agencies to try to be sure that the federal government gets sufficient authority to help Hawaii prevent things coming into Hawaii, which would be acceptable in the rest of the United States, because uh the federal government inspection is for stuff coming out of the the U.S. and if it comes into Los Angeles, if it goes to Ohio, it dies. If it comes to Hawaii, it may live. So Hawaii will want to stop it, but because it's already within the United States they can't.
[01:01:18] Bruce Voss: And that's the final word on the environment today. My guests today have been State Deputy Health Director Bruce Anderson and environmental activist Susan Miller. Today's show was produced by Susie Roth with technical support from Jeff Allardy. Please tune in next Sunday when Randy Roth will return from his mainland travels to reassume his role as host. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Bruce Voss. Aloha and good morning.
[01:01:18] Speaker 2: That's the final word on the environment today. My guest today have been State Deputy Health Director Bruce Anderson and environmental activist Susan Miller. Today's show was produced by Susie Roth with technical support from Jeff Alard. Please tune in next Sunday when Randy Roth will return from his mainland travels to reassume his role as host. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Bruce Boss. Aloha, and good morning.