Capitalism in Paradise
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-07-07
Guests: Noel Jacob Kent (Professor of Ethnic Studies, University of Hawaii); Paul Brewbaker (Chief Economist, Bank of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:00:57

[0:00:02] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of The Price of Paradise radio show. Normally, we're broadcast live, Sunday mornings at 8:00 on KHPR as well as KKUA and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO. This morning, July 7th, KHPR's transmitter is experiencing some problems, and so it looks as though KHPR isn't going to be with us this morning. Our plan is to go ahead with the show and then rebroadcast on KHPR two weeks from today. That'll be Sunday morning, July 21st.

[0:00:34] Randall Roth: Everyone who works to bring the Price of Paradise Radio Show to you is a volunteer. We do what we do because we enjoy doing it and because we believe in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that supports grassroots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Our topic today is the economy, specifically, are capitalism and free markets working, both in the United States and here in Hawaii? If you've seen today's advertiser, you know my guest disagree on the answer.

[0:01:09] Randall Roth: Noel Kent, a Professor of Ethnic Studies at the University of Hawaii, says Hawaii's economy is flawed to the core. He's especially critical of corporate downsizing and outsourcing, and what he calls political bankruptcy here in Hawaii. Paul Brewbaker, the Chief Economist for Bank of Hawaii, disagrees. He says bad news tends to drive out the good, that Hawaii's economy is basically sound. With a few policy adjustments, it could be even better. Good morning, Paul. Morning, Randy. Noel, good morning. Morning, Randy.

[0:01:40] Randall Roth: Um, real curious, Paul, uh you've read Noel's piece in the paper this morning and obviously you know what you had to write. Um, what are your thoughts generally about uh capitalism, free market economies? Are they working, not working? You're uh, just in a few seconds your basic position on that.

[0:01:58] Paul Brewbaker: Well, I don't want to start out by overselling capitalism and free markets and uh, I think maybe if we get away from the word free, we'll have a letter, a little better, uh, conversation because the growth of market-oriented economies around the world, uh is obviously something that's uh, accelerated in recent years with the demise of some of the more centrally managed economies.

[0:02:18] Randall Roth: Is that like the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc countries? Like Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc countries. Uh, but as we, uh, as we, uh watch their progress towards, uh, entering the global marketplace, we can see that they're having lots of difficulties in that transition transition.

[0:02:33] Paul Brewbaker: And, uh I think thinking about our own, uh situation here in Hawaii where we've had a very stagnant economic situation for, for much of this decade, uh we also have to, uh think about the kinds of problems that confront market economies and how we can overcome them to uh succeed the way we had, uh in recent decades.

[0:02:52] Randall Roth: So you think there's there's nothing basically wrong with capitalism, free market economy and certainly the world seems to be moving in that direction, but there are problems and certainly there's room for a lot of improvement in Hawaii. Absolutely. Okay. Noel Kent, what do you think?

[0:03:06] Noel Jacob Kent: Well, I've got some disagreements with with that analysis. Uh I think that current surveys show an enormous amount of fear and insecurity, uh on the part of uh people in Hawaii and people uh people on the mainland also, losing their jobs, losing their homes, uh losing their pensions, uh a tremendous amount of fear and anxiety, and I think this is well founded. Uh there is a capitalist revolution going on.

[0:03:29] Noel Jacob Kent: Uh giant corporations driven by obsessions with market share and profitability have been minimizing, globalizing, automating jobs out of existence and basically uh being totally irresponsible to communities and the workers who are involved with them. Uh I think uh corporate America is basically out of control and uh responsible to virtually no one at this point.

[0:03:49] Randall Roth: Let me ask you a question. You use the expression capitalist revolution as though we haven't had capitalism in the past. Tell me a little bit more what you mean by the term capitalist revolution.

[0:03:59] Noel Jacob Kent: I think what's going on now is akin to what happened in the uh late 19th century with the Industrial Revolution. What we have uh is the coming together of, of cybernetic and automation, uh technologies. We have uh what Robert Heilbroner calls uh technological clusters, uh new kinds of innovations, new kinds of marketplaces, the telecommunications revolution, uh new types of financing, uh billions of dollars ricocheting around the world and, uh in the financial markets every day. I mean, this is unprecedented, I think in history of capitalism.

[0:04:27] Randall Roth: And and this is bad? This is bad?

[0:04:29] Noel Jacob Kent: It's not bad for uh some classes of people. It's not bad for the owners and the managers and people who control property and people who control, um, uh the uh the engine of this, uh of this machine. But it is bad for workers, for communities, but people who, uh, who have only their labor power to sell in the marketplace and that's the problem. Uh, we're having a great cleavage here, a great divide between those who have, those who control, those who basically have the set of skills necessary to maximize in the system, and the rest of us, who are being left out into the cold.

[0:04:59] Noel Jacob Kent: I think in the United States today, perhaps 40% of the working force is absolutely dispensable, and is in the process of being jettisoned, is in the process of being left out in the cold.

[0:05:09] Randall Roth: Let me get in. I want to get to your thoughts about Hawaii in particular in just a minute, but Paul, still talking generally about capitalism, free market economies, and this capitalist revolution, as Noel puts it, what's your reaction to what you're hearing?

[0:05:21] Paul Brewbaker: Well, I'm not convinced that, um, the loss of jobs that he's talking about is uh, the, the kind of problem that um, Noel seems to oppose it as. For example, in the United States, in the last 5 years, during which corporate downsizing and outsourcing and a number of major structural changes are occurring in modern in the modern corporation, 10 million jobs have been created in this country.

[0:05:47] Paul Brewbaker: Uh, if you look at, uh the technological revolution that's underway, the revolution that's been, uh brought about by, uh the microprocessor, the changes in microprocessor and the expansion of the telecommunications, uh, capabilities that are now out there, uh I see a lot of potential for Hawaii as an economy, for the USA as an economy, and indeed for the global economy, because these technological changes bring markets closer together than ever before. For a state like Hawaii, for an economy like Hawaii, these, uh technological changes create new pathways for us to have access to outside economies.

[0:06:22] Randall Roth: Noel, let me ask you along those lines as I was listening to you, I I was thinking you're not a Ludite are you aren't and I maybe mispronouncing it, but weren't those the folks that were breaking up all the machines at the beginning of the industrial age because they didn't want that change. You're not saying that that this um, high-tech information age that we're in right now is is somehow bad, are you?

[0:06:43] Noel Jacob Kent: No, but what I'm saying is it needs to be taken out of the hands of the corporate elites, and and the management elites, and it needs to be placed in the hands of, uh uh in a, in a, in a democratic way. Technology needs to be democratized. They need there needs to be some basic control by people in a democratic way over the processes of technology.

[0:07:02] Randall Roth: Oh, okay. So, so there's nothing wrong with with moving with high-tech into the information age, but somehow you we're at the at the whims of corporate managers?

[0:07:12] Noel Jacob Kent: That and I think that pathways and tracks have got to be established, so that people who are not on the high-tech track can live decent dignified lives, which isn't the case. These are the the vast, a vast number of people in this country at this point are being made expendable, are being ditched.

[0:07:33] Randall Roth: Okay. Now Paul, you you talked about income disparity in in your column or in your article, uh and as I understand it, you're acknowledging that the rich have been getting richer and the poor have been getting poorer, that it's stretching out more, but you didn't seem to see that in in class warfare terms. Tell us about it.

[0:07:51] Paul Brewbaker: That's right. The the data are very clear for the United States in the last uh 20 years or so, with productivity growth uh having slowed during the last two decade, uh and the importance of skills and human capital, as we might call it, in the workplace having grown even more important, uh given the technological changes that uh have occurred, the ones that we've been talking about.

[0:08:12] Paul Brewbaker: You have seen a a marked uh increase in the disparity of the income distribution in this country. And I'd imagine uh the trend in Hawaii is the same. Uh, my colleague Leroy Laney, uh has published a little work on on this to show that Hawaii's pattern uh is is following the national pattern in this in this regard. Technological progress of the sort we've talked about, uh favors those with the skills or with the flexibility to adapt to those changing, uh to the changing technologies.

[0:08:41] Paul Brewbaker: Uh, at the same time, there are a number of other changes, including uh demographic changes that have uh increased the uh numbers of of people, or the relative proportions of people, uh that might uh that we would uh say are, are in a poverty uh like a status. Um, uh however, most of those changes are are thought to be uh transitory. And at any rate, uh what's happened with lower uh total productivity growth in this country is that it's made it harder for those people at the low end of the spectrum uh to keep up, and it's created challenges for everybody, but obviously those with the skills have been able to to adapt.

[0:09:19] Paul Brewbaker: Uh, we think that bringing skills, uh to, uh the, the unskilled, to the low wage earners is ultimately the only way to get out of that trap.

[0:09:28] Randall Roth: Let me see if I understand this. I I think, at least in my terms, you're saying first of all that that there's mobility, that that people, when you use the term transitory, that people who are in the the bottom rung at some point tend to move up, that there tends to be movement. There is a tendency uh and uh that, of course, also tends to focus our attention on those people who tend to be trapped in the lower income, uh quintiles, let's say.

[0:10:04] Randall Roth: Okay. And then another point that that that I I think you're making again expressed in in my terms, is that I think you're saying our system encourages people to get more education, more training, develop better skills, because somehow they are richly rewarded for that. And and I I think what you're suggesting is that we want a system that provides an incentive for investment in in human development.

[0:10:17] Paul Brewbaker: Yes, I think we have a system that does reward uh, the accumulation of those skills. I'm not sure we have a system that delivers those skills. So I, I, I think we need to put more effort into that.

[0:10:26] Randall Roth: Okay. No, what do you think about what you're hearing?

[0:10:28] Noel Jacob Kent: Well, one thing about Paul, that the system has created 10 million jobs, but the they're jobs of mediocre quality, and I think that's part of the problem with the Clinton job job upsurge. The growth polls of the economy basically are temporary and contract work. It's not stable, it's not permanent, it doesn't have the sort of uh uh benefits that uh the permanent serious jobs. We're not creating serious jobs in this country. I think that's that's part of the problem. The other thing about human capital, I mean, uh human capital has given way to inhuman capital. Corporations have downsized, outsized, outsourced, laid off people, put tremendous work burdens on those who have survived them.

[0:11:06] Noel Jacob Kent: It's a tremendous amount of anger and rage in the American corporate world against corporations and corporate management. Tremendous. It's a tremendous gulf at this point, that divides workers and uh people at the top management who've scarfed up the benefits of the of this productivity revolution. Uh so, I don't see this happening. I also don't see any proof or any evidence that if American workers obtain more skills, that work that employers will upgrade the jobs to accommodate those skills. Uh a number of economists argue that what the American uh industry and American economy wants are low wage, low skill types of labor.

[0:11:42] Randall Roth: Now, let me ask Paul, as I as I'm listening to Noel, I'm getting number one, we are creating lots of jobs, but they're lousy jobs. Number two, there's there's this tremendous gulf between the the the people who are making all the decisions, the executives on the one hand and and the workers on the other hand. Um once you respond to those two first then we'll move on.

[0:12:02] Paul Brewbaker: Well, these are pretty sweeping generalizations that I would uh tend to think are not true, but of course we could appeal to the data to try to verify them. I I think the argument that uh in the that for instance, the the the last argument, that the corporate workplace is in fact looking for low-skill, low-wage jobs. I think that's absolutely incorrect. There, if you want low-skill uh low-wage jobs, the world is happy to provide them to you. There were plenty of those kinds of jobs outside the US economy, and the kinds of uh products that are uh that are produced by unskilled workers are available at very low cost in the in the outside economy.

[0:12:40] Randall Roth: And that that's part of this globalization is that anything that that can be done by low skilled people tends to be done in third world countries or whatever.

[0:12:48] Paul Brewbaker: Precisely. Okay. Um so I'm sorry, I I interrupted you. What does that mean? Well, I think for the uh the the way I'm familiar with it in the corporate workplace uh today, the emphasis is exactly on the opposite. It's on uh, I hate to use this term, but empowering people to take control of uh, of their own, uh skills development, their uh productivity and performance, their uh goal setting, so that their uh, the rewards are commensurate to the amount that they can progress in the workplace.

[0:13:20] Paul Brewbaker: Now, it is a workplace that's increasingly, uh more competitive uh because of globalization among other things, deregulatory trends in a number of industries, but that uh in my experience has spurred everybody on to uh to improve.

[0:13:33] Randall Roth: So what you're saying in terms of the relationship between the managers and the workers, um it's just different from what Noel is describing. Where Noel is saying there's great alienation and and there isn't power in the workers, you're saying that right now there's an attempt to empower the workers and put them more in control of their own destiny.

[0:13:54] Paul Brewbaker: Yes, although, uh to go back to the the uh what you just said a second ago, I don't think there's that much of a divide between workers and managers to begin with. I don't think there ever has been.

[0:14:04] Randall Roth: Okay. No, um anything else on that? And then what I want to do is move specifically into Hawaii's economy, how we're doing, where we're headed, all that sort of thing. Any other general comments about uh capitalism and and free markets and that sort of thing?

[0:14:18] Noel Jacob Kent: I think, uh, I think Paul, uh, again, Paul and I have some differences of opinion here. Uh, I don't think corporations are interested in upgrading workers and powering them. I think they're interested in disempowering and displacing them. And that's what this downsizing revolution is all about, to intimidate workers, to put them on the defensive, uh to uh contain their salary demands and to basically uh squash, uh any sort of freedoms that they might have uh in the marketplace.

[0:14:44] Noel Jacob Kent: I mean uh the rhetoric is all about empowerment, the reality is one of control, surveillance. Uh Jack uh Welch, you know, who's one of the high priests of uh of the human capital movement, the president the CEO of uh of General Electric. I mean, he's also known as Neutron John, a Neutron Jack, because he cleaned out, he basically cleaned out about 100,000 workers in the first first couple of years that he came in, just cleaned them right out.

[0:15:09] Noel Jacob Kent: I think what globalism is all about uh is transnational corporations wanting a world where gigantic corporations control world markets, where there is a consumer a common consumer culture where everybody drinks Coca-Cola and local cultures are eroded and where workers and communities compete against each other in the race to the bottom. The bottom line is that corporations want to be free to act any way they want to act, even if corporations and families and people are destroyed and devastated.

[0:15:36] Randall Roth: Well, I want to remind listeners that this is The Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth and I'm here with my guest Paul Brewbaker and Noel Kent. I'm going to tell you a little bit more about them in just a moment. But I want to explain that we're talking about Hawaii's economy. I can we are talking about capitalism and free enterprise in general, but we're about to talk specifically about Hawaii's economy. One way of looking at it, do we have reasons to hold our thumbs up, or are we hanging by our thumbs?

[0:16:02] Randall Roth: Uh, the good news is that those of you who are listening to me right now on July 7th can pick up your phone and get involved in this conversation. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, which is very, very likely because uh KK or uh KKUA, which is our neighbor island station at 90.7 FM is running just fine, but KHPR today on July 7th is is down.

[0:16:30] Randall Roth: So, those of you on the neighbor islands, the very good news for you is that your chances of getting through this morning are much, much greater than what they would normally be. It appears that you're not going to be competing with the folks from Oahu. So, on the neighbor islands, just add a 1-800 to the number, that's 1-800-955-8821. If uh you tuned in late and you'd like to hear the show in its entirety, it will be rebroadcast tonight on KIFO at 8:00. KIFO is found at 1380 AM. Well, we're talking about uh our economy, and I have with me Paul Brewbaker and Noel Kent.

[0:17:03] Randall Roth: Paul is the Chief Economist at the Bank of Hawaii. He was born in Manila, grew up in Hawaii, graduated from Stanford. He has taught economics at the University of Wisconsin, University of Hawaii, and HPU. He's a member of the Council on Revenues and the Honolulu Board of Realtors Research roundtable. Noel Kent is a professor of Ethnic Studies at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. He was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. He has degrees in political science from the University of Wisconsin and Hawaii. He was a Fulbright scholar in Denmark. He's been with the ethnic studies program at the University of Hawaii since 1972.

[0:17:37] Randall Roth: He's the author of a book called, Hawaii, Islands under the influence. Well, I guess that's a a great segue into the next uh section of our conversation, which is Hawaii. Um, you know, are we under influence, or let's talk about today, 1996, Noel, uh what kind of shape is the Hawaii economy in and and why?

[0:18:00] Noel Jacob Kent: Well, we've got a low-wage, high-cost economy, grossly even development with a swollen uh tourism land development sector and uh disappearing uh agriculture and manufacturing sector, a lack of serious jobs, or really affordable housing for young people, and substantial out migration. We have a growing chasm between uh the wealthy and the poor, uh and we have uh locally based corporations like Outrigger and Aston and other uh Bank of Hawaii uh outsourcing jobs to cheap labor areas on the mainland and other places. Uh we have Bishop estate which prefers to invest its capital outside of Hawaii. In short, I think we're looking more and more like a third world country.

[0:18:39] Randall Roth: Let me say ask Paul Brewbaker, do you do you recognize the Hawaii that Noel is describing or or are you simply looking at it a totally different place?

[0:18:47] Paul Brewbaker: Well, I do see a different place. Uh I I think I need to respond uh to to one uh comment regarding Bank of Hawaii and I think it may actually be a a metaphor for what's going on in other corporations uh here, that what might

[0:19:00] Paul Brewbaker: be appreciated. Bank of Hawaii is not in the process of shifting to outsourcing from other states, rather than countries, on the contrary, Bank of Hawaii is using its position in Hawaii to leverage that niche market to expand into the Pacific Islands and Asian markets, and to expand into the North American banking market. What other companies or organizations are doing is not always clear to me, but I think certainly in that regard our organization is an example of one that's capitalizing on the on the ability to enter into the service export arena and grow our base from Hawaii into the regional and and global marketplace.

[0:19:44] Paul Brewbaker: I think there are opportunities for other producers of service exports to do the same.

[0:19:49] Randall Roth: Now, as I understand it, I think we're talking about, at least what Noa is describing and you're suggesting isn't true with with respect to the Bank of Hawaii, is outsourcing, where companies will have various tasks that previously had been done here by their employees, have them done by others in other places, is that correct?

[0:20:08] Paul Brewbaker: Yeah, there's a lot of that going on.

[0:20:10] Randall Roth: Is that a good thing, a bad thing?

[0:20:14] Paul Brewbaker: I think it's a good thing. The opportunity to produce a part of your product or service at lower cost is something that allows you to either deliver that product or service at lower cost to the consumer or for you to gain as a result of it as as an owner or as a say a shareholder in that organization's activity. So, I don't see the problem there. Outsourcing is creating a lot of opportunities for small businesses, for entrepreneurs to produce those services that are being outsourced. Indeed, many, most individuals that are involved in the outsourcing arena are former corporate players themselves.

[0:20:54] Randall Roth: No, what I don't understand is, as I understand it, you're you're critical of of big corporations having more and more power. And yet, as I understand outsourcing, uh it's making the corporations smaller, it's it's letting entrepreneurs provide those services uh as as contractors. Uh am I missing something, or is there just another dimension that that makes it bad?

[0:21:17] Noel Jacob Kent: When Outrigger Hotel or Aston, uh Aston Hotels, when they uh outsource their reservations, for instance, uh, you know, Hawaii reservations to Denver or Dallas, which are cheaper labor areas, which aren't covered by you know labor labor laws, laws that we have. And what this does is uh is is transfer jobs, uh higher wage jobs that our people have to uh people who are working for less money and are more exploited uh in in areas of the mainland. This isn't helping our people.

[0:21:44] Noel Jacob Kent: This basically represents a net uh loss of jobs to our community and and this is one of the problems. We have corporations uh in this town uh in this state that are operating under public charter, with some responsibility to uh and some obligation to the people of Hawaii and yet are taking jobs out of this community because it benefits them. What we need to do is to control the way corporations operate so they operate for the benefit of our community.

[0:22:09] Randall Roth: And and I guess what we're talking about goes back to the nature of of free enterprise and and capitalism. You use the word uh exploited that workers in other markets are are more exploited. I guess that's because they're the the market is more free and it and it sets their wages at a lower level than what would be possible over here. And so, if if I understand correctly, Noel, you're saying that that the political structure has to um go in and trump uh supply and demand. It it has to say that that a certain wage or quality of life or whatever is going to be provided, regardless of what supply and demand would suggest?

[0:22:45] Noel Jacob Kent: If Richard Kelly of the Outrigger Hotels wants to transfer jobs uh jobs outside, I would argue that he should not be permitted to be able to transfer those jobs outside. He has, as as a person who's operating a corporation in Hawaii, as a person who operates under the laws of Hawaii, he has an obligation to our community and to the working people of Hawaii to maintain those jobs here.

[0:23:05] Randall Roth: And and and I think you would go on to say has an obligation to pay a a certain amount, a certain minimum amount that presumably would be higher than the current minimum wage, that you're I think saying that that the political structure should force him not only to hire locally, but to pay more than what the market alone would require him to pay.

[0:23:25] Noel Jacob Kent: Absolutely. A living wage. A living wage, that's critical.

[0:23:28] Randall Roth: Paul Brewbaker, what do you think of that?

[0:23:29] Paul Brewbaker: Well, I I don't understand that. The uh the obligation of a corporation or a corp or corporate management in particular is to its stockholders. If those happen to be Hawaii residents, all the better. That's definitely the case uh for a lot of the companies that uh we've been talking about, but there's no question that uh at the same time, many of these organizations also have outside owners. So, so Noa is really talking about a different system because you're saying under a current system, there is a duty to the shareholders.

[0:23:57] Paul Brewbaker: Absolutely and uh we uh we accomplish that for instance in the organization I'm involved in, by providing uh the best uh the highest quality banking services that that we can in this market. It's not uh the it's not that our objectives are incompatible, it's that our um our uh our owners require that we behave in a certain way.

[0:24:19] Randall Roth: Okay, and Noa, you're saying, well that's the problem with the system, that it has to be changed.

[0:24:23] Noel Jacob Kent: Yeah, Paul just basically stated the uh the problem with the system. I mean it's it's not good enough to be responsive to shareholders or to managers, or to the board. A corporation has to be responsive to the communities it serves and to its employees. That's critical.

[0:24:37] Randall Roth: Let me let me ask about tourism, because you've you've brought up uh a couple uh of our big hotel uh companies here in Hawaii. And and as I understand it, if a provider of something in this global economy isn't reasonably efficient, uh they're not going to be able to compete, and and I think tourism is is basically a good thing so far as Hawaii's economy is concerned and I'm I'm probably going to uh generate a a a conversation about that. But let me ask Paul first. Um, is what we're seeing with respect to Outrigger Hotels, for example, the outsourcing, the attempt to to provide things at at the lowest price possible, um is that something that's necessary in this global economy or or not?

[0:25:22] Paul Brewbaker: Well, I can't speak to uh corporate decisions that Outrigger is making, but I I would say that um there is an asymmetry here. If one is going to argue that firms in Hawaii should not be allowed to use the uh services that are provided by firms outside the state or by their own subsidiaries outside the state, uh when in when at the same time, we're all trying to deliver the same kinds of services outside the state. Would one be critical of say Outrigger uh the Outrigger organization for exporting hotel management services to other markets throughout the Pacific Islands and in Asia? Uh would one be critical of Bank of Hawaii for out for providing outsource services to First National Bank of Arizona?

[0:26:05] Paul Brewbaker: Uh I I don't understand that. And so if we're going to talk about what's wrong with outsourcing uh as a disservice to the people of Hawaii, I think uh we're going right to the core of what's happening with globalization in which those kinds of distinctions, our people, their people, borders, etc., don't really matter.

[0:26:22] Randall Roth: No, it it sounds to me like like you're being accused of wanting to put up a big fence around Hawaii and you're going to kind of isolate us. Is that what's going on?

[0:26:30] Noel Jacob Kent: I want to protect the working people of Hawaii who are being devastated by the types of corporate changes that are taking place right now. Uh trade unions can do this to some extent, even though they've been on the defensive and their power, unfortunately, has been eroded for a long time. At this point, corporate capital is out of control. It's using globalism, it's using minimalism as strategies to devastate workers, to devastate communities and to devastate families. And this has got to come to an end. We need political protection against cowboy capitalism.

[0:26:59] Randall Roth: Is it happening Noa, because of of greed, because of stupidity? You know, what what would you attribute it to?

[0:27:08] Noel Jacob Kent: Well, some of it's greed. We have a good old Walter Dodds for instance of the First Hawaiian Bank who's pulling down 1.35 million this year and we have Paul's boss, Boss Lawrence Johnson at 1.1 million, plus uh lots of other income, I'm sure that they have. Uh what we have is a is a corporate system which which has gone absolutely crazy, which awards huge, wild, inflated, obscene salaries to uh to individuals, at at at the same time that homelessness and poverty is growing in this country and I think that's absolutely obscene.

[0:27:38] Randall Roth: And I guess we come back to the economic system because um, you know, Michael Jordan is making far more money than that and it's it's a reflection of supply and demand. There's there's one Michael Jordan on on the basketball court. I guess you'd be equally critical of that.

[0:27:52] Noel Jacob Kent: I would. I don't think Michael Jordan should be making 18 million dollars a year, right? Absolutely.

[0:27:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Paul, what do you think as as Noa raises the the topic of executive compensation. And I'm going to come back to tourism in in in just a moment, but want you respond to what he's just said.

[0:28:07] Paul Brewbaker: Well, as a shareholder of Bank of Hawaii, I uh believe that the board of directors has uh served us well in making that particular decision. I can't speak to what's going on at uh First Hawaiian Bank, uh and uh I would agree with you uh that um these salaries are high, but uh like the Michael Jordan example, the question is what does it take to get somebody to run one of these modern corporations and and uh uh acting on the behalf of the shareholders, the boards of directors have made uh made these decisions and they seem to have uh been acceptable to those uh shareholders.

[0:28:42] Noel Jacob Kent: Paul, it takes 1.35 billion dollars to motivate Walter Dodds to uh to run the First Hawaiian Bank, isn't this a bit excessive, don't you think uh?

[0:28:50] Paul Brewbaker: Compared to what? Compared to what what would you get, Compared compared to the entry level job of people at First Hawaiian. I mean, the median the median income of people in Hawaii, the median household income is 45,000. That means that Walter Dodds is pulling down something like uh the equivalent of 30 30 35 uh households. You think that's is there some sort of fairness there, morality about this? Entry level jobs, entry people with entry level job skills do not run 6, 10, 12 billion dollar banks. The median household income earner does not run 6, 10, or 12 billion dollar corporate organizations.

[0:29:26] Noel Jacob Kent: What's the median what's the median income at your bank, for instance, how much is it?

[0:29:29] Paul Brewbaker: I have no idea. No, I don't think we should say anything because you're going to make up a number.

[0:29:34] Noel Jacob Kent: Whatever it is, it's Walter Dodds is getting 20 times the average employee in your company. I think that's absurd. That really is.

[0:29:40] Paul Brewbaker: Well, you've just made up a number to get a ratio. Do you understand? I mean you can't make up a number like 50,000 and then say, well, that's 120th of whatever Well, let let let me approach this from a slightly different angle because, no,

[0:30:33] Randall Roth: Let me approach this from a slightly different angle, because Noa, I I I got to tell you, I I think I think everybody sees flaws and and and and even in in Paul's piece this morning, he he sees some some things that could stand correcting um in with our economy here in Hawaii. But in my mind, it it has to be compared to to what else we could have. And for example, when we're talking about high compensation, personally, my reaction is, I'm not quite as upset with high compensation that's set by market forces where the the the people who are deciding to pay that money are are themselves affected by how much is being paid. In this case, the shareholders of Bank of Hawaii through their Board of Directors. I'm not as concerned about that for some reason, as I am when high compensation is set via a a political process. For example, the the Bishop Estate trustees. There, it has nothing to do with supply and demand. It's in in my mind, a totally political process. Um, if we didn't have the system that we have right now, if politics was used to control who got hired and how much they were paid and and where they came from and all that sort of thing, what makes you believe that it would be better than it is right now?

[0:31:43] Noel Jacob Kent: See, I don't think supply and demand sets Walter Dodds' salary or Lawrence Johnson's salary. It's, it's, it's, these are political decisions uh made by the people on the board. These are also political decisions made by the fact that our political system will not establish a maximum wage to control this sort of obscene salary.

[0:32:00] Randall Roth: So so the shareholders of a company like Bank of Hawaii have lost control of of these decisions?

[0:32:06] Noel Jacob Kent: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the the the the boards in this country operate independent of shareholders. They operate independent of employees. I mean, that's part of the problem. We have uh

[0:32:15] Randall Roth: It's this is completely bizarre. Shareholders vote for every share, you got a vote every spring. You got a proxy and you vote for who's going to be on the board of directors. That's your job. That's your that's just like voting for people to legislature to represent you.

[0:32:30] Noel Jacob Kent: That's the ideal system. The real system is that insiders in corporations as you well know and uh and big shareholders are the ones that basically control the politics that operate around corporate boards and I mean,

[0:32:40] Paul Brewbaker: By definition, big shareholders have more votes but the largest shareholder in Bank of Hawaii only has about 5% of a position in the company. That that the phenomenon you're talking about is certainly not one that's representative of the organization.

[0:32:54] Randall Roth: Let me shift gears a bit. I just want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise radio show. My name's Randy Roth. I'm here with Noel Cant, who's a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawaii, Manoa, and Paul Brewbaker, who's the chief economist at the Bank of Hawaii. Uh KHPR is down today, July 7th, but KKUA, our neighbor Island station at 90.7 FM is uh up, we're told, but we haven't received any calls. And so I really want to encourage neighbor Islanders if you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 1-800-955-8821. We're talking about uh economic systems in general and Hawaii's economy in particular, and that gets me right back to tourism. Noel, um, your book Hawaii Islands under the influence, I think among other things, and and there's a lot in the book, but I think you're you're fairly critical of tourism, that that it's it's somehow not serving us as well as we should be served here in Hawaii. Um, is that an accurate description and if not, what are your thoughts about it?

[0:33:59] Noel Jacob Kent: Well, I think that's accurate, and I think the, you know, the 5-year economic crisis that we've had, which is apparently now abating is is good evidence. I mean, we've had an economy which is so overly dependent on tourism that uh as tourism and land development which is an associated industry uh went down the tubes uh you know, after the Gulf War, uh there's been a tremendous amount of uh of of economic pain in the islands. So, obviously, by putting all of our eggs in one basket, so to speak, uh we've reaped the consequences.

[0:34:27] Randall Roth: So you're not so much against tourism as you're against uh not being diversified?

[0:34:31] Noel Jacob Kent: I'm against the kind of tourism we have in Hawaii because I don't think it serves uh as an instrument of our development. It certainly serves uh Aston and Hilton and Hyatt and it serves the multinational uh tourism corporations, it just doesn't serve us. I mean, it uh it tends to commodify Hawaiian culture, it tends to take money, I think, out of Hawaii. Uh it tends to uh concentrate uh our uh service industries in low-wage industries. And I think this is a this is a real problem. Tourism, inherently, is a lousy industry, you know, it's not a good industry in many places, especially in in islands which have to import huge amounts of material. Uh and this is this is part of our problem. What I would like to see as far as to reorganize tourism in some fashion to uh uh to make it an instrument of our growth, our needs.

[0:35:17] Randall Roth: I'm I'm looking at your article in this morning's newspaper on the OpEd page and among other things, you're suggesting subsistence quote green agriculture, villages attuned to farming and handicrafts, independent producers cooperatives, co-housing projects, Hawaii is a center for multicultural activities, etc. In a nutshell, that's kind of the the reworked uh economy that you're referring to.

[0:35:40] Noel Jacob Kent: I think there's room for obviously, there's room for the sort of tourism that we have now, but I think uh that tourism has got to be brought into some some sort of control as much as we can control it as possible. But I I think we I think we need to have a whole series of imaginative alternatives for the thousands and thousands of young people especially who are not fitting into this economy. They need different types of tracks, they need different places to go, they need different types of livelihoods that they can work on.

[0:36:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got some callers, but first, Paul, real quickly, your reaction to what you're hearing from Noa.

[0:36:10] Paul Brewbaker: Yeah, I think uh Noa's concern about the uh dependency of the state's economy, about 25% of our gross product is uh tourism related, directly tourism related. That's a big share of uh our our total uh production and makes us vulnerable to changes in external market conditions that are drivers for tourism. Uh I also think that are there are uh uh opportunities emerging, particularly there the comment earlier about agriculture and decline. I think we should uh clearly distinguish between plantation agriculture and and what is commonly called uh diversified agriculture or small-scale agriculture because uh the latter has uh tremendous opportunities now that for the first time really in a century, oh 60 70,000 acres of prime ag land on the Big Island are available. About 100,000 uh acres of uh the best agricultural land uh we have in the state have become available in the last two or three years as a result of plantation closures, and that again creates an opportunity for the expansion of some of these alternative agricultural models.

[0:37:10] Randall Roth: So the the closures are are painful, and corporate downsizing is painful, but you would suggest that that's just a a natural way to kind of weed things out and in the long run it's healthy?

[0:37:19] Paul Brewbaker: It's maybe even surprising the plantations didn't close earlier. But again, the the the upside is the potential for alternative agriculture.

[0:37:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we've got some callers. Let's start with Brooks from the Big Island. Good morning, Brooks.

[0:37:30] Caller: Good morning. Uh I have a question for uh Paul Brewbaker. Um, well, in the discussion about um the uh shareholders uh votes and the Board of Directors influence over uh big corporations uh and whether if salaries are obscene and all this, that the missing ingredient here it seems to me is that what are the true costs of continuing to do business in this fashion?

[0:38:00] Speaker 1: where we're looking at a bottom line that is a totally false set of economics. We're not looking at what is the real cost to sustain a quality of living and a quality of ecosystem on the planet. We are not looking at what is the cost of these practices to our grandchildren and their grandchildren and what will be the cost to the ability of the planet to sustain a livable environment.

[0:38:34] Randall Roth: Let's get a reaction to that, Brooks. Brooks, Brooks, hang on. Hang on. Um, you've made a real good point. Let's get a reaction to it from Paul Brewbaker.

[0:38:41] Paul Brewbaker: Yeah, I think that's a Brooks is pointing to a basic flaw in the market system as we know it, which is that not everything has a market in particular. A lot of the things that Brooks is concerned about the sustainability of our ecosystem, the preservation of natural environments or of of us, you know, species that are rare or endangered here in Hawaii, a few of those things have a market measure that allows, say a corporate organization to take them into account. Part of the reason we ask that government intervene in these cases is to force people making economic decisions, corporations, individuals to recognize that those costs exist. And I think that's where we need to put a lot more energy here in the state of Hawaii. In the last 20 or 30 years, certainly in my lifetime here in Hawaii, the awareness has increased radically and rapidly that the kind of damage we've been doing to our environment is irreversible in in many, if not most cases and and needs to be stemmed. So in terms of channeling the kinds of corporate or other economic activities that occur in the future, we we must have an intervention in a a collective intervention, through government, if not through citizen action to ensure that those costs are reflected in the economic decisions made by economic agents.

[0:40:05] Randall Roth: And I guess as I understand it, that's the key is that you don't want government to simply, in a heavy-handed sort of way, say you do this and you don't do that, instead, government just needs to make sure that companies that are somehow affecting the environment have a cost. Absolutely. I I there are a number of ways that economists debate how this can be done. One is just pure regulatory intervention. I think that tends to be the less the least efficient and tends to create processes that are more costly than than than need be the case. But the difficulty of assigning prices where prices don't exist, limits the the possibility of imposing costs directly on production.

[0:40:47] Randall Roth: Let me get a reaction to this from Noel Kent.

[0:40:49] Noel Jacob Kent: Unless the strong government regulation corporations will basically use, use pollution as an externality, they'll basically, you know, they don't have to pay for it, they'll do it. Absolutely. If they don't have to pay for it, they'll do it. So this is one of the cases, I think, where one of the few cases today, where Paul and I agree on something, but I'm much more skeptical than he is about the voluntary compliance of corporations and their goodwill. I think basically the bottom the bottom line rules and government regulation is really necessary in this area.

[0:41:20] Randall Roth: Well, I think you really are green because, Paul, you're saying you want the bottom line affected by what companies do with respect to the environment.

[0:41:27] Paul Brewbaker: Exactly and I would agree further with the point Noel was making about credible enforcement threats. I think that's one of the problems that that we have in the way we manage our natural resources today is that there are not credible enforcement threats. Noel talked about a regulatory system for example with respect to land development, which I think has been uneven at best. It it's a system that tends to reward those who willing to hold out and pour free resources into you know waiting and and and working their way through the process, but it tends to exclude a lot of good ideas for development that simply don't have those kinds of resources to push those ideas forward.

[0:42:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Brooks, does that respond to your question?

[0:42:09] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it does in a kind of a superficial way, but the the point I I'd like to him to address is that corporations do not now deal on that level. They're not looking many years, many generations into the future. They're looking to the bottom line, you know, this year, the stock market tomorrow. So, what do you see for the people that have the power? How do you get them to become morally responsible on a true fiscal basis?

[0:42:36] Paul Brewbaker: Well, Paul, I think again you say you you appeal to the pocketbook, right? Uh that's surely the direct method. Uh I think it's uh a little too strong to say that the kinds of people we're talking about that manage corporate organizations are are are immoral, that don't think about the future or the prospects for say their own children, that that sounds a little irrational to me. But um I I have no uh disagreement with the the basic idea that we have to make corporations more responsible for their economic actions in in and in for instance, in an intertemporal sense, uh by uh changing the system so it directly influences those decisions.

[0:43:15] Randall Roth: Okay, Brooks, thanks for your call. We really appreciate it. We've got another call from the Big Island. This one from Rick. Good morning, Rick. Rick, are you there? Rick on the Big Island. Yes. Are you there? Go ahead. You're you're on the air. Oh, okay. All right, it's been very interesting listening to the comments this morning, and I'm really glad you have Paul Brewbaker on because I was a student of his father at the University of Hawaii. Oh, in Tropical Agriculture?

[0:43:39] Speaker 2: Pardon me? In Tropical Agriculture?

[0:43:41] Randall Roth: Yes, right.

[0:43:42] Speaker 2: Okay. But um anyway, it's uh this fellow Noel, I don't know who he is, but No Noel Kent, he's a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawaii. Okay. But listening to the comments about uh you know, people should live in small villages and produce handicraft, etc, etc, that's all well and good, but one of the items that I think is greatly discounted in this discussion about diversification of the Hawaii economy is that on the Big Island especially, we have lots of people who work in hotels that are also part-time farmers. They grow coffee, they grow mac nuts, and theums, any number of crops, and it provides them a wonderful source of secondary income and they are greatly fueling the move to diversification of agriculture. And I haven't really heard that discussion this morning and I think Paul probably is more aware of that than anyone else that I would know.

[0:44:27] Randall Roth: Let me get a reaction to this, Rick. First from know cuz no, I'm assuming this is exactly the sort of thing you would encourage.

[0:44:33] Noel Jacob Kent: Yeah, there are some very exciting uh green agriculture, sustainable agriculture types of developments in the Big Island, and I think this is this may be uh sort of a model where we want to move in the future, but I would like to see a more uh collective, a more uh communal type of development, for instance, on Oahu and other places where where there is some degree of combination of state and private planning that that moves toward absorbing uh a lot of the surplus uh people that we're going to we're producing at this point.

[0:45:04] Paul Brewbaker: Yeah, I do. It it turns out if you look at for instance, the uh the census of agriculture, that the vast majority of farms and farmers in Hawaii are as Rick has described them uh part-time uh farmers. Now, some make a lot of money on the side. Some make most of the money uh their money on the side, so to speak, uh have a day job for cash flow but have an agricultural pursuit that is really their their main, you know, focus in life. Um, the point No makes about redesigning communities, I think is an interesting one because there are a lot of people talking about that. Looking at the urbanization of Honolulu and, for example, the transition the unfortunate transition, I would say in the area where so much primag land is being urbanized, not not just by private developers, but by the state's own housing developments. I think we really need to explore the kinds of uh creative concepts that Noel and others have been talking about, particularly for the neighbor islands where the rural agricultural, agriculturally-oriented lifestyle is something really worth keeping.

[0:46:12] Randall Roth: This is exciting, more more agreement.

[0:46:14] Noel Jacob Kent: But even as Sugar phases out, I see us

[0:46:17] Randall Roth: Hang on, Rick, just a second. Go ahead and know, finish and I'll go to Rick.

[0:46:19] Noel Jacob Kent: But even on Ihu this has you know, tremendous potential, Paul, I think, but I think it requires us to think in a very imaginative way and to move away from this sort of urban sprawl LA conception we've had of Wahu that is really strangling us as a community.

[0:46:34] Speaker 2: Okay, Rick. Oh, okay. Just, you know, and that's why I don't want to discount the Sheratons and the Hyatts and the Hiltons, because they provide a necessary and greatly needed source of of employment on this island. and I understand some people may not like their methods of of displaying Hawaii or or or, you know, creating tourism, but it works for for some of us who are part-time farmers. Okay. Secondly, the communal living arrangements or whatever for farmers, I grew up on a farm and I've been doing it myself for 25 years and my grandpa always used to say, and it's true, is organizing farmers is like loading frogs in a wheelbarrow. It just doesn't work.

[0:47:12] Randall Roth: Thank you, Rick. We really appreciate your call. You're listening to the price Thank you. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name's Randy Roth. I'm here with Paul Brewbaker, who's the Chief Economist for the Bank of Hawaii, and Noel Kent, who's a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawaii, and also the author of a book entitled Hawaii, Islands under the Influence. We're talking about Hawaii's economy right now, and our Oahu station is down, but on the neighbor islands you can call in and ask a question or make a brief comment. That number is 1-800-955-8821. If you tuned in late, and you'd like to hear the show in its entirety, tonight on KIFO 1380 a.m. at 8:00, you'll be able to hear the entire rebroadcast.

[0:47:55] Randall Roth: Paul, I want to ask you, some of what what Noah is saying really resonates with me. It does feel like we're in a a budget crisis here in Hawaii. It feels like there's more of a an economic squeeze on on all of us than what I've ever felt before. Um, how do you explain that in light of the data that you share in your article this morning that tax revenues are up 6%, which is double the rate of inflation, I think. And we're in the top 10 in the country so far as per capita income and jobs are being created. How do you square what you're describing with what Noel and I are feeling?

[0:48:35] Paul Brewbaker: Well, I think at best even those uh indicators that you cite uh are uh suggestive of of a mixed bag. Let me go through a few of them, for example. Uh tax revenues, you have to remember, probably a percentage point or two of the 6% growth is just a reflection of the repeal of tax credits that occurred last year as in a revenue enhancement mechanism and another maybe uh small uh portion of that is a shift to electronic filing for large uh taxpayers. So there's some anomalies at work. The underlying, let's say true, rate of growth of tax revenues is probably only 4%, maybe four and a half percent. Then after inflation, that's about equal two and a half percent inflation. That's about what we'd expect the economy to uh a growth rate we'd expect the economy to reach by next year, 2% growth.

[0:49:19] Randall Roth: Well, and and yet, we're we're talking about slashing various budgets, especially in the so especially in the social services area, and we're talking about uh, you know, no raises for government workers, we're talking about all sorts of things that would suggest a different economy than what you're describing.

[0:49:36] Paul Brewbaker: Well, at the risk of sparking more uh uh controversy here, the bottom line on on uh state government right now is 6% or let's call it 4% uh revenue growth uh uh adjusted for those um adjusted for those uh revenue enhancements. 4% revenue growth is less than the expenditure growth we've planned uh uh and built up uh some momentum uh for in in the state budgets.

[0:50:01] Randall Roth: So regardless of what we're reading, we're spending more money.

[0:50:03] Paul Brewbaker: We're we're still spending a little more than we can afford to uh in the public sector.

[0:50:08] Noel Jacob Kent: Noel, I bet you've got some thoughts to share about this.

[0:50:10] Noel Jacob Kent: Oh, I sure do, Randy. Um, I think the Kyatana administration has been very disappointing. Uh, when they uh came to power and uh they they basically could have uh created a very imaginative series of policies to deal with this revenue shortfall if that's what we have. Uh, what they have done basically is to adopt the sort of republicrat policy of attributing economic problems to social welfare programs and too much government and seeking to deregulate corporations and provide tax breaks. I think the core of the crisis strategy has been to assault the poor, the working class and state workers. And so you get these huge cutbacks in education and, you know, we're feeling that at the University of course, and the DOE and also in the community health clinics. But why was a policy never formulated to, uh, for instance, to create a tax surcharge on high incomes? Why wasn't that ever on the table? I think a lot of people in the public sector are willing to share the pain of this revenue crisis, but we don't see anybody else sharing it. We don't see the Dodds and the Johnsons and people at the corporate top sharing the crisis that we it's on our backs. And I think this has resulted in a great deal of resentment and demoralization among public workers and other people in Hawaii.

[0:51:28] Randall Roth: So you're you're feeling a a class struggle here.

[0:51:32] Noel Jacob Kent: This is class war. It's class war, and this is the what's going on throughout the United States. It's class war by uh by the upper class against the middle class and the low classes. Absolutely.

[0:51:42] Paul Brewbaker: Well, I'm not sure I see class warfare, but I do agree that um there are there are problems with the way uh fiscal austerity is being implemented and I'll I'll I'll point to two. One, in terms of the cutbacks that Noel uh alludes to, the the problem with cutbacks in general is that inevitably they create inefficiencies. And so we we, in addition to uh having, you know, slashed and burned in a number of uh uh public spending and employment areas, we also create certain we we create a disruption that leads to efficiencies that have to be overcome. That that will take some time for the public sector to uh work that out. On in terms of uh tax revenues, um it's an interesting question of whether uh there is a possibility to uh uh gain revenue. Um, and I I'm inclined to think slightly differently about it. I I think are the way our tax system in Hawaii is set up, our income, the problem with our income tax is that uh high marginal income tax rates are brought to bear at relatively low levels of income, so we don't really have that much progressivity. And uh for instance, the median household that Noel referred to earlier is already paying the maximum marginal income tax rate at about 40,000 uh for a couple. I'd be inclined Where I the the Kohi of tax revenues in Hawaii, I'd be inclined to redistribute the burden of taxes in Hawaii towards the property tax and away from the income tax. I think the way we're set up right now, we inadvertently subsidize the investments of offshore uh investors in Hawaii, uh who pay relatively as we do, who pay relatively low uh real property taxes.

[0:53:19] Randall Roth: So not necessarily raise taxes, but shift the burden so that it's um it's more on the backs of folks who are investing from outside Hawaii.

[0:53:27] Paul Brewbaker: I think we should tax wealth a little bit more heavily, that it would give us an opportunity to to to tax income for the lower and middle class uh income earners, uh much less heavily and maybe provide them with more incentives for additional work effort.

[0:54:15] Randall Roth: I think the future looks very bleak in Hawaii. Uh, I think that uh, huge numbers of people are being, many of them uh of certain ethnic groups, the Native Hawaiians, Samoans, there's Filipinos and others are being left out of the uh the so-called progress train. Uh, I see a great deal of youth uh who are alienated, who feel they have no future, who are really uh in despair. Uh, I see the beginnings of a sort of permanent underclass along the mainland lines and uh the growth of crime and violent crime is is is part of this. Uh, I think we need to create uh a much more equitable economic system in which people feel they have a real stake and real belonging. We need to create livelihoods as as much as jobs. I think we need to explore a whole series of imaginative alternatives for the economic restructuring of Hawaii, and I think we need to take power away from those power centers uh and the banks and financial institutions and corporations, which have traditionally held power in Hawaii. And I think we need to democratize Hawaii, I think that's really critical. Let me say in the bright side, I think the Hawaiian sovereignty movement represents a real possibility of moving into very imaginative and constructive ways of of organizing our society along the lines of very different values. I look to the sovereignty movement as a a real place where where we can really talk about uh viable change in Hawaii.

[0:57:00] Speaker 1: on the top 10. I'd also add that in terms of growth of per capita, per capita personal income, we're we're definitely in the top in the bottom five, so we need to really get something going. Fortunately, at mid decade, we do see that opportunity now at hand. We see the improvement in tourism gradually spreading to the rest of the economy. Most of the declining sectors, construction and real estate investment that we talked about a little bit earlier, have have pretty much bottomed out. And so we do see the economic pie beginning to increase and we expect that as we participate more actively in the regional and global economy, growth will growth will be restored.

[0:57:38] Speaker 1: Greater equity can be achieved by growing the pie. It's more likely to be able to achieve that, take advantage of the increase in in the resources available through growth then can be achieved simply by redistribution and economic democratization. I think can invest if you're concerned about that in Hawaii can advance by investing in Hawaii companies and exerting your rights as a shareholder to vote for the kinds of corporate policies you think are appropriate.

[0:58:07] Randall Roth: no what about that I get the impression that you're more concerned about cutting the pie properly, and Paul is saying you got to have a big pie and then with social democracy, you can cut it properly.

[0:58:19] Speaker 1: I don't believe that economic growth can can believe the more equity. Uh what we've had is the economic growth and productivity of the last 2025 years have been monopolized by the people at the top. What we need to have is a radical redistribution of income, power and wealth in the United States.

[0:58:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, that's it. Uh I want to thank my guest, Noal Kent, professor of ethnic studies from the University of Hawaii and Paul Brubaker, the chief economist for the Bank of Hawaii. As I explained a couple times, our KHPR transmitter was down this morning, and so even though it was recorded July 7th, we're planning to rebroadcast it July 21st on KHPR. So if you're listening at that time, thanks for tuning in to the rebroadcast. We've been talking to Noal Kent and Paul Brubaker about Hawaii's economy. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, our technician this morning was Philip Hutchinson, our producer is Susie Roth and working the phones this morning was Wally Roth. Uh next week which I guess is last week if you're listening on the 21st, oh my gosh, this is going to get complicated so I'm not even going to tell you what's coming up on July 14th. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, Aloha on track.