Public Education in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-12-03
Guests: Joan Husted (Executive Director, Hawaii State Teachers Association); Rod McPhee (retired President, Punahou School); John Dolly (former Dean of Education, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:00:18

[0:00:04] Randall Roth: Good morning. This is Randy Roth, host of Pop Radio. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 and KKUA 90.7. And then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM. Everyone who works to bring Pop Radio to you is a volunteer. We do what we do because we enjoy it and because we believe strongly in the importance of lively and informed dialogue. Our airtime is paid for by the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that encourages grassroots efforts to strengthen our sense of community and that administers its charitable funds with efficiency and compassion.

[0:00:39] Randall Roth: Our topic today is the public school system in Hawaii, with an emphasis on the role of the teachers union. With me in the studio to discuss it are Joan Husted and Rod McPhee. Plugged in by phone is John Dolly. Each of my guests has a long and impressive resume, but I'm just going to hit a few of the high points so we can get right to our conversation. Joan Husted currently is the Deputy Executive Director of the Hawaii State Teachers Association and is its chief negotiator.

[0:01:08] Randall Roth: She joined the staff of the HSTA in 1972 and has served as its acting director of negotiations, research, contract maintenance, director of field services and programs, director of programs, and finally, as assistant executive director, field operations. She has seen the association through 10 collective bargaining agreements, two strikes and one teacher walkout. In 1985, she was a recipient of the YMCA Outstanding Leader Award and that same year, she received the Honolulu Star Bulletin newspapers, Pacemaker of the Pacific Honor. In 1986, television station KGMB named her one of the outstanding women in Hawaii and in 1990, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority awarded her the Distinguished Public Service Award in the Far West Region.

[0:01:52] Randall Roth: She has her bachelor's degree from Sienna Heights College and a Master's of Arts from the University of Michigan. She has taught at the high school and intermediate levels. Rod McPhee retired in August of 1994 after 26 years as president of Punahou School. He came to Hawaii from Glencoe, Illinois, where he was superintendent of the public schools. He has been a public school teacher and administrator and has been a faculty member at the universities of Wisconsin and Chicago. He's taught school administration for 4 years at Harvard and has conducted administrative workshops at Harvard, Stanford, and Northwestern. He has directed or participated in studies of 5 mainland public school systems.

[0:02:31] Randall Roth: Rod has two degrees from the University of Wisconsin and a doctorate from the University of Chicago. He is co-author of the Organization and Control of American Schools. Currently, he is a consultant to the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards and serves as a board member for several community organizations and corporations. John Dolly is just recently and for nine years, the Dean of the College of Education at the University of Hawaii. Currently, he holds that position at the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, and he is the author of our chapter on public schools in Hawaii in our Price of Paradise Volume 1. Joan, Rod, and John, good morning.

[0:03:08] Joan Husted: Good morning.

[0:03:08] Rod McPhee: Good morning.

[0:03:09] Randall Roth: Joan, a lot of people in Hawaii, I think, noticed an article in the newspaper a couple weeks ago, talking about the number of public school teachers in Hawaii who send their own children to private schools. The statistics are interesting, and some people would say alarming. In the United States, generally, a smaller percentage of public school teachers send their children to private schools than does the public generally. But in Honolulu, the percentage is four times as great. This, I think, concerns a lot of people, not because public school teachers should be sending their kids to public schools, but because public school teachers are are the most informed consumers.

[0:03:52] Randall Roth: And a lot of times when we're trying to buy the best product, we ask the informed consumer. What's your reaction to this study?

[0:04:00] Joan Husted: Well, Randy, I I I think people have a right to raise questions about why their public school teachers send kids to private schools, but I think we have to look at what Hawaii is. There is a real climate within the state, and it has been for a number of years, that private schools are the place where kids get education. It's a kind of a folklore that that occurs in this community. And a lot of people say, 'Oh, you mean you're not sending your kids to private schools? Don't you care about their education?' Even the military, I understand, puts out a videotape that says, 'Maybe you should consider private schools.'

[0:04:32] Joan Husted: So you get into this whole melee of where should you get an education. And teachers are first and of all, parents, and and they they react to that kind of pressure. So that's one reason. Secondly, I think many public school teachers are also very aware that there are some key lacks in our in our public schools. Our facilities are not where they ought to be. We're lacking resources, and I think that they're demonstrating that frustration in some cases by going on to onto private schools.

[0:05:03] Joan Husted: And then thirdly, our teachers also have certain religious values, they belong to organized religions, and many of them send them to parochial schools because that's a value for them rather than walking away from from a public school. So I think you have a whole mix.

[0:05:18] Randall Roth: So you don't necessarily think it means that that they're telling us, through their actions, that there's something very wrong with our public school system?

[0:05:27] Joan Husted: Well, I I'd be less than honest if I said some teachers weren't sending their kids to private schools because they were frustrated with some of the conditions in public schools, because I think that's true. Um, and I think they see private schools with better facilities, smaller class sizes. Um, somebody told me at at one of the private schools, um, they had lots of aids that were working in regular classrooms. That's a luxury we don't see in the in the public in the public school.

[0:05:51] Rod McPhee: Rod McPhee, what do you think about that study and Joan's reaction to it? Well, I think the study reflects what we've known for a while, which is that in urban schools, urban city urban situations, you have a much higher percentage of teachers sending their kids to private schools than you do in the country as a whole. In Hawaii, I think you have several factors. One is the historical precedent. The independent schools were started long before public education got much of a foothold. But I think in addition to the educational dimension, there's another factor that certainly plays a role in the decisions of some parents. And that's the whole factor of safety of the children.

[0:06:29] Rod McPhee: Um, we've had kids tell us, or I've had youngsters tell me that there are problems with the bathrooms in the public schools. They're they're known as places that are not safe and they don't dare go in all day long. And that's where one of the points that I have a problem with the HSTA, I think. Because their contract says, no member of the bargaining unit shall be required to balance or maintain daily registers, collect lunch money, or inspect bathrooms and or restrooms on any scheduled basis.

[0:06:57] Rod McPhee: Well, if the teachers aren't checking those on occasion and they're not safe, the kids are just going to avoid them, and the parents are going to find other options for their youngsters. Same thing has just happened in New York City. The contract there that has just been agreed to by the the mayor, not the Board of Education, interestingly, has done two things. It's protected all the teachers from any layoffs through 1998, and it has removed them from any supervision of any of the hallways or the ban or the bathrooms. So, again, in New York, the headline in the New York Times says, 'New Teachers Pact Could Prove Costly to Children'.

[0:07:34] Rod McPhee: Because as I point out there, if the teachers don't do this, who's going to do it? There's no there's no money to provide for other people to do it.

[0:07:43] Joan Husted: Okay, Joan. Um, well, I I can't speak for the New York the New York City teachers union, um but let's let's take a look. First of all, we don't think it's productive to use uh highly trained professionals for the purposes of supervising bathrooms. That's not what you hired your teachers to do. We do believe, however, that there ought to be proper security on a school campus, and we have long joined the state student council, for example, in calling for more security guards, if that's what it takes. We think also a school can develop a climate of good discipline. I mean, it shouldn't be a case of of uh supervising a bathroom.

[0:08:20] Joan Husted: We ought to prevent those kinds of things from happening right up front. And one of the things that we call for in the same collective bargaining agreement, is that the administration is going to provide proper support and discipline. And we have a provision in our contract that if children are at risk, there is a way for teachers to bring that to the attention of the proper authorities. So first of all, let's prevent it, and secondly, let's hire the proper people to supervise campuses and let the professional teachers teach.

[0:08:48] Randall Roth: Okay. I want to come back to the topic of of safety. Interestingly, when I got into the studio this morning, one of our listeners had sent a very long facts telling a number of stories, the main theme of which was great concern about the safety of children in in the public schools. But we'll come back to the topic of safety. I first want to go to John Dolly. John, are you there?

[0:09:06] John Dolly: Right, I'm here.

[0:09:07] Randall Roth: John, what do you think about the situation with our public schools in in Hawaii, uh whether it's related to something that Rod or Joan has said or something else that you think is of of great importance?

[0:09:18] John Dolly: Well, I I I agree with both. I think there's been a history of private education in Hawaii. People see it I think as a status symbol and many people I talked to when I was in Hawaii expressed great concerns about safety for their children. These are all legitimate issues. Nevertheless, when you have 40% of your teachers sending your kids to private schools, it does send a message to the general population that there's something wrong. And I think that perception is going to kill the schools when the people who work within the system don't appear to be supporting that system.

[0:09:50] Randall Roth: So John, are you saying that that they should uh, at sacrifice to whatever else would have them sending their kids to public or to private schools, you're saying they should send them to to public schools, or are you saying something else?

[0:10:03] John Dolly: I guess I'm saying something else. I don't think you can make people send their kids anywhere. Um, you know, it's one of the rights you have as an American citizen, you can send your child wherever you want, but the school.

[0:10:11] Randall Roth: So what's what's the lesson from this study? What what are we

[0:10:15] John Dolly: I think the lesson is that there is uh at least among teachers, um serious problems are perceived um to exist in the public schools and maybe we ought to go to those teachers and find out exactly what those problems are and try and address them.

[0:10:28] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, Rod McPhee, in your article in the focus section of this morning's Honolulu Advertiser, you start out by saying that the Teachers Union is first and foremost there to serve its members. Um, the implication I guess is that if the kids are somehow benefited by the actions of the Teachers Union, that's fine, but make no mistake, it's first and foremost for its members. Um, that's pretty strong statement.

[0:10:55] Rod McPhee: Well, it is a pretty strong statement, but I don't think there's any political scientist or any anybody who's analyzed organizations who would say that the major purpose of of a union is to benefit anybody other than the members. Uh any other benefits are useful, they're wonderful, but they're secondary. People are not going to pay dues to an organization so that it benefits somebody other than themselves. And that's true of of any union, and not only the teachers. And I don't think that's necessarily bad, but that is the reason for existence of any union.

[0:11:27] Randall Roth: So when when you gave uh the the quote in the the your article this morning about uh, president of a Teachers Union proudly saying, 'no teacher was fired while I was president', you're suggesting that that that's an illustration of uh, the union there to watch out for the teachers.

[0:11:46] Rod McPhee: Well, that was certainly his his stance, and and what he later said was that if by collective bargaining, we believe that we would professionalize and empower the teachers, we have clearly failed. What we did only protected the weakest among us. This is John Radcliff, this is what he said in the speech on Maui, 1992. I didn't say this. But this was what John said was the reason, in essence, the reason for the union was to protect the members.

[0:12:12] Rod McPhee: I don't fault that as a rationale for the union, but I think if anybody looks at the union, and I understand Joan's point of view and saying that it's really to benefit youngsters, uh I just I just don't agree with that philosophically. I think secondarily, and I also agree that most teachers come into teaching for good reasons. They don't come in for selfish reasons or to get rich. But when they join a union, they are coming together to do something to help all of the members of that union. Okay.

[0:12:45] Joan Husted: I've got a feeling Joan, you feel a little differently about this. Oh, I mean, there are so many different things that in that. Number one, let's let's take a look. Uh, not all unions are uh cut out of the same mold. I mean, essentially, Teacher Associations are really kind of craft unions. We're very interested in who enters the craft, how they stay in the craft, how they perform in the craft. And we're very interested in the clientele of the craft which are our kids. Our mission statement says that we're interested in quality public education in the state of Hawaii. Teachers join unions because we're a collective voice.

[0:13:22] Joan Husted: Uh, we're the one collective voice that speaks for kids in this in this state. We're the ones down at the legislature, we're the ones at the rally saying public schools need more money, kids can't suffer. And a lot of teachers join uh voluntarily as members of HSTA to become part of that voice. Uh we're also very, I you know, I love John Radcliffe dearly, he was my boss for 13 years. Um, but I'm afraid John and I saw something different in those 13 years, you know, he he sits back and says nobody was fired on on his watch.

[0:13:56] Joan Husted: Well, I'm sorry John's wrong because I defended a number of teachers who were indeed fired on on John's watch. Um, so what you saw was something different, but if a teacher wasn't cutting it, that they were pushed out of the system. But if if you take a look at some of the things we've been involved in, if you look at what the track record is, uh, I think you can talk quality. Uh we're very interested in maintaining a workforce that is high quality. We've long supported an independent teacher standards board and it's independent from the Department of Education. It's independent from the bureaucracy and frankly, it's independent from us.

[0:14:53] Joan Husted: Uh, so you keep and and continue to get good teachers into the system. We've supported the National Teacher Standards Board. Uh, and we'd like to see all of Hawaii's teachers certified under the National Teacher Standards Board when the day comes.

[0:15:06] Randall Roth: Okay. I I want to come back and I want to talk about standards, and I want to give you an opportunity to to respond additionally to to Rod's comments about the union. But I want to first get a few thoughts from John Dolly and then we're going to remind listeners just uh who we are and how to call in, and we'll welcome some some calls at that time. John Dolly, what do you think of what you've been listening to?

[0:15:24] John Dolly: Well, I I agree with both. I think Rod has hit on a core value that that needs to be the center focus of any policy debate on education. That is, whatever we do, we should keep the child as the number one objective and not try and build a system that's simply good for the people working in it, which I think sometimes unions do. I also agree with Joan. When I was in Hawaii, HSTA was one of the few groups in the state doing anything to lobby in a positive way for children in Hawaii.

[0:15:58] John Dolly: And I find that somewhat disturbing that we don't have more people advocating for children period, never mind the school system, but just for children. But on the other hand, I also think the union has within its contract things that are somewhat self-destructive that are not helping the schools in Hawaii, and those need to be addressed and the union has protected some of those benefits for teachers, I think, to the detriment of public schools in the state.

[0:16:29] Randall Roth: Okay. And I should add, there are really two unions involved. There's Joan's union, the HSTA, the teacher's union, and then the other one is the HGEA, which the principals belong to. Um, and I have tried for a long time to get officials from that union in to um to join us on this show, and I can't get them to even return calls or or fax as much less agree to to join us. Well, you're listening to Pop Radio. My name is Randy Roth. With me in the studio is Rod McPhee, the president emeritus of Punahou School, and Joan Husted, an official with the Teachers Union here in Hawaii.

[0:17:04] Randall Roth: By phone, we have John Dolly, who just formerly and for nine years was the University of Hawaii College of Education Dean. If you would like to join in the conversation by asking a question or making a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are always invited to call us collect, the number again is 955-8821. We're talking about public schools in Hawaii, and especially the impact of the Teachers Union. If um you are around your television set this evening, watch KHON Channel 2 News at 6:00 and perhaps at 10:00. Nelson DeRongchang is down here with buddy the cameraman, and we anticipate that perhaps they'll do a report on the show on their evening news.

[0:17:47] Randall Roth: Our number again 955-8821. We've got a number of people on the line. Let's first go to Ruth in Moiliili. Good morning, Ruth.

[0:17:56] Speaker 3: Good morning. Uh thank you. Particularly as an uninformed uh lay person, isn't it true that part of it is economics, that a lot of the teachers have husbands who are earning good living and therefore can afford to send their kids to private school.

[0:18:12] Randall Roth: Okay, well Ruth, let me direct that to to Joan because Ruth is suggesting that the teachers make a lot of money, and I've read quotes from you that teachers in Hawaii are underpaid. Uh what's what's the truth here?

[0:18:27] Joan Husted: Well, I think I think those teachers that send their youngsters off to private schools, uh in many cases scrimp and save like every other citizen who sends their kids off to private schools. Uh we're we're not looking at an affluent teaching force. I think the national data clearly indicates that we rank 50 out of 50 states as far as average teacher salary corrected to the cost of living. But I think I think all community members who send their kids to pub private schools do very much have to sacrifice to do that. Uh and I think teachers are are part of the the group that sacrifices to

[0:19:00] Randall Roth: statistic all the more amazing to me that based on the statistic that you just gave our teachers are relatively speaking underpaid and yet four times as many of them are sending their own children to private schools here as across the United States.

[0:19:02] Speaker 3: Well I think that's indicative of the of the value or or the aura that private schools have within within the state.

[0:19:04] Randall Roth: But but the percentage of public school teachers is twice that of the percentage in in Hawaii. In other words, it's not just a higher percentage than public school teachers across the United States, but a much higher percentage than people in Hawaii generally.

[0:19:06] Speaker 3: And that's true and you you can't really argue with the statistics. I'm not going to sit here. There is some information out of decision demographics and Arlington that refute the actual number but um I think again part of it is the fact that our teachers are also looking at a level of frustration about what it's going to take to improve the public schools and have decided in some cases to send their youngsters off to private schools. By the way the former superintendent of schools sent his kids to private school, the governors have sent their kids to private schools. I mean

[0:20:55] Randall Roth: Well there's nothing wrong with the individual decision. It's just the the the message that society is being given by informed consumers.

[0:20:56] Speaker 3: And what we would like the the consumer to do is talk to to the teachers and to us and say, look, what can we do?

[0:20:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Rod, I just wanted to add to to the question that Ruth posed, that a lot of the people who were sending their youngsters to Punaho uh, had two people teaching in the public schools. It it's, we have the highest number, highest percentage, I believe of double income families working in in Hawaii of any state in the Union, partly because of the cost of living. But I agree wholeheartedly with Joan that people who do send their youngsters to independent schools, what whatever one it is, uh have to sacrifice. This is an expensive proposition and it really means as you're implying, Randy, it really means they've made a tough decision and it costing them of a ton of money to do it.

[0:21:16] Randall Roth: Well let's let's move real quickly through some more calls. We have all of our lines are are full. Thank you Ruth. We go to uh Steve in Honolulu. Good morning, Steve.

[0:21:18] Speaker 6: Good morning. Thank you. Um, I'm I teach at the University of Hawaii and I'm calling in support of Rod McFee's position um concerning the unions. I found them to be actually very protectionist and I'll just give you one example and perhaps they can respond. I would discuss that can respond to this. You know that in in in Hawaii, um, if you we have a program at the University of Hawaii in Educational Administration, which theoretically would allow someone to become a principal as administrator in our public school system. But actually we have a two track system and this is totally illegal. You could register um for the program and get a degree in Educational Administration and you will not be allowed to administer here in Hawaii. The Union itself or at least I should say the DOE selects a cohort of students who will then attend a special program, the same courses that you might take, but you will not be in the same class with them. And once they get their degree, it's only they who are certified to administer here in Hawaii.

[0:21:52] Randall Roth: How how do people get selected to get into that special track?

[0:21:52] Speaker 6: That's a very good question. It is not done at the university interestingly enough, although I believe we might have one person on the you know on the board that selects it, but this is selected totally through the through the DOE. and it's only their cohort of students that are allowed to serve here. And that to my mind is none only protectionist, but it goes against totally the university's policy of you know, equal opportunity.

[0:22:04] Randall Roth: Okay, Steve. Let me get uh John Dolly's thoughts on that. John, uh very recently and for nine years was Dean of the College of Education at UH. John, what do you think?

[0:22:09] John Dolly: I only caught bits and pieces. I really couldn't hear the question. I assume it's that dual track and that administration.

[0:22:18] Randall Roth: Dual track and and the suggestion that maybe that there was some sort of of favoritism that that people in the DOE would hand pick individuals that would go into the the better track?

[0:22:24] John Dolly: Well, that's not true. In fact, what what happened at the university, um, in collaboration with the DOE, about 7 years ago, we started redesigning the program in an educational leadership or educational administration. And one of the things we saw coming was a shortage, not only of teachers but of administrators. And we established a joint committee. That was um combination university and DOE leadership. And that committee does in fact select people into the cohort program at the university. But that cohort program is underwritten financially by the DOE, so that people engaged in the two-year it's a field-based program, two-year program, uh do have their salaries paid and receive a lot of support from the DOE. That is a special program. It involves a two-year commitment. People do have to meet a series of prerequisite requirements to get in there.

[0:22:42] Randall Roth: Is the admission all merit-based?

[0:22:46] John Dolly: Uh, it's merit-based as well as not only do you have to meet the criteria for graduate school and the program criteria in the College of Education, but you also have to have the recommendation of the appropriate of your principal and superintendent. So I mean in that regard, uh there's a number of hoops that people have to go through to get into that program. It is true that that program is not open to the general public. Okay. Uh that is a special program designed for people within the system of Hawaii, but you can uh pursue a degree outside of that program. Now probably what they caller was referring to is the fact that it yeah we are a closed system in Hawaii. Yeah. You cannot get into uh the system as an administrator without first having come up uh through the system as a teacher. I can I could see how that could be very frustrating, Steve.

[0:23:09] Randall Roth: And whether that's legal or not is an interesting issue. Nobody has challenged it to my knowledge. I know, I'm not so sure it is. we can't blame the unions for that one. By the way, that's exactly right. There are some legislative or statutes that restrict some of these things. Okay. Steve, uh thank you for your call. Thank you so much.

[0:23:32] Randall Roth: Okay. You know just as soon as uh one caller gets off, we've got another caller getting on the line. So I'm going to try to to keep it moving if if everyone who's waiting if you could organize your thoughts and try to ask your question or make your comment as as uh briefly as possible. We'd appreciate that. Let's go to Malcolm in Manoa. Good morning, Malcolm.

[0:23:35] Caller: Good morning. I'd like to make a few comments about uh things that your panelists said. Um, first of all, uh Mr. McFee says that uh the union exists for the benefit of the members, that's my impression that it exists for the benefit of the Union hierarchy and the political operation that it supports. The HSTA is one of the largest contributors to political campaigns in Hawaii. Um, there's a close relationship between the HSTA and the DOE, in that administrators and union officials move back and forth, so that a Leeward District rep is now a uh vice principal, our superintendent former superintendent was a union official and is now uh Governor Cayetano's chief of staff, John Radcliff who was executive director was Cayetano's transition director. So when you hear the DOE and an HSTA point of view, you're really hearing one story with two different accents. Okay. The uh uh College of Education is a part of this too. They uh often support the uh HSTA or the HSTA supports them with for example the teachers standards board, which is a way for the teachers union to help the uh guarantee College of Education jobs. Now the College of Education reciprocates by by giving these teachers post graduation credits which advance their salary. So there's a it's a handshake between the HSTA and the DOE. Whether whether these people give you the most highly trained professionals is really in doubt. Um, students of teachers who got their degrees in math did better on the NAEP than students of teachers who got their degrees in education. And nationwide, people in the College of uh graduates in education have lower standardized test scores on the grad on graduate tests on on tests for graduate school admissions than virtually every other academic major except for uh social work.

[0:25:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Malcolm, I I really appreciate uh your sharing your thoughts with us. Well, he's talking about the political clout of unions and I could not be uh more in agreement. If If you look at the National Democratic party, uh, one out of every eight delegates to the 1992 convention was a member of either the NEA or the AFT. They have poured incredible amounts of money into the Democratic Party. And those are the National Teacher Unions.

[0:25:42] Randall Roth: That's the National Teacher Unions, and anybody who doesn't realize how potent they are politically is not looking at the facts. They're very strong here in the state of Hawaii, they're very strong across the nation. A Governor Clinton is truly indebted to the teachers for his election and he's made no bones about saying so.

[0:26:40] Randall Roth: some linkages and cross-linkages. Uh that's going to happen. Um, I maybe we do need somebody to keep it all honest. I proposed a long time ago that the superintendent of education should be a totally independent office, somebody in a sense who is a watchdog for the state. Uh, I would like to comment though on the SAT scores. That's national data and from national data that's true. That is not true in Hawaii. Uh at least in the college of education and at UH Hilo. Uh the requirements to get into teacher education are pretty stringent and the requirements for graduate education are pretty stringent. So I don't think those data hold up at all. At least in data that I looked at at the University of Hawaii.

[0:26:59] Speaker 3: Um, well, you know, every every educational decision in the state of Hawaii is a political decision. I mean that the the legislators and the political powers to be make decisions about public education. And if you're going to advocate for the kids and public education, you're going to advocate for quality education, you've got to work with those people to get it done. So, yes, uh we exercise political clout. Uh we endorse candidates that support public education. We endorse Republicans and Democrats who support public education and that's the way it gets done in this state.

[0:29:51] Randall Roth: But also uh certainly at least the HGEA does not endorse candidates for the Board of Education who are in favor of privatization.

[0:30:22] Speaker 3: Uh I got to let HGEA speak for itself. Well they won't. You're right. Well, but but HSTA uh is it a supporter of different forms of of privatizations choice vouchers, that sort of thing?

[0:30:40] Speaker 3: No, well, the association has uh been on record. We've opposed privatization of public education. I mean, clearly, we believe that public schools must remain public. Uh we have supported the student centered school concept which is Hawaii's version of the charter schools. And we're now working with the second student-centered school which would is about to be the second student-centered school. Uh, vouchers, you know, it's interesting. I I I think we have to ask some fundamental questions about vouchers. One, if we're going to go to vouchers, will these private schools take all the kids? And will they keep them?

[0:32:10] Speaker 3: And two, are they willing to abide by all the federal and state regulations that public schools have to abide by? So, uh we need to get answers to those questions.

[0:32:17] Randall Roth: Well, if you're going to do vouchers, as Joan just mentioned, with all the regulations and the stipulations, then I as an independent school administrator would not want vouchers. I don't want them anyway. I think the public schools deserve public support because that's what they were created to do, and I think independent schools deserve independent support because they're they're by choice. Now, there are people like Milton Friedman and others who are very strong advocates of the vouchers, but I don't like his system. Uh Terry Moe, who's now uh in California, at the Hoover Institution is talking about a different form of vouchers, which would enable independent schools to retain some of their independence. But I don't know enough about that. At the moment, the vouchers that I have seen are not vouchers I would support. I think Joan is is right on that one, but I don't see that the HSTA is supporting choice in the sense that I think parents ought to have a choice in the public sector.

[0:32:54] Randall Roth: I'm not sure what their position is on the charter schools, and so I don't really know about that, but the charter schools, if they're really independent, would be a great thing. But uh what kind of charter schools are you talking about, John?

[0:33:00] Speaker 3: Well let's do it real quickly. One is we don't have a problem with public school choice. So we've supported the geographical exception program so parents can move their youngsters around. We've supported magnet schools. We've supported learning centers which all allow certain kinds of choices. Uh charter schools are uh a function which would allow a school's community to develop a school that might specifically meet the needs of the youngsters within that area and free them up from most rules, regulations, laws, and what have you. The first one is Wylai. I just spoke to the Wylai parents two nights ago. The second one will probably be Lonnie Kai coming in out of Kalu.

[0:34:27] Randall Roth: Good morning, Steve.

[0:34:27] Speaker 6: Good morning. I like to say that I've put a couple of kids through the public schools here, and I have another one that's probably going to go through. That I am a teacher at the University level, and I see the products of both the public and the private schools in Hawaii. And I have two comments that I'd like to make and let the panel. Hang up on what the panel make, wouldn't say what they will about them.

[0:34:46] Speaker 6: First of all, I don't see how we can say in Hawaii that we value public education when per capita in terms of costs, we spend less than any any other state in the Union. Uh that's in view of our cost of living and so on and so forth. We have the lowest public expenditure on public schools in the country. And obviously what you you get what you pay for. The second thing I'd like to say, and I've noticed this as a teacher of the products of the public schools and the private schools. The best students out of the public schools, and the best students out of the private schools seem to do about equally well at the university. Um, it's the people who are a little bit below the best, and it seems to me that the big, in my experience, in 28 years of teaching them, the big difference between students has been the degree of parental involvement and who's their significant others. The students who are most interested in their friends, who significant others are their friends, are students who do poorly. And students who significant others are their parents and their elders seem to do better than the others. And that may be a value judgment. It seems to be largely cultural. There are certain cultural groups in which parents seem to influence their children a great deal in Hawaii. There are certain cultural groups in Hawaii where it seems that students are children are are supposed to learn from their cohort and are supposed to be and supposed to value their friends and their their like-age friends higher than anything else. And those are the groups I've noticed whose students do the most poorly in school. Okay. And I will hang up and listen to what you have to say.

[0:36:03] Randall Roth: Thank you, Steve. We really appreciate your comment. You know what I want to do is is get hear from a few more callers and then we'll we'll open it up and have our guest in the studio and John Dolly respond to uh any or all of the comments they've listened to. Let's go to Emmett in Kaaniohe. Good morning, Emmett.

[0:36:13] Caller: Good morning, folks. Say, um, I think we'll all agree that there's been a serious problem and an ongoing problem in the public schools here in Hawaii for decades. And what I'm wondering is if the teachers, uh, in the teachers union are so concerned about the children, why haven't they used more of their economic clout and their political clout to get something done? Specifically, I don't remember any time where we've had teachers negotiations where we've gotten down to the end the final big problems, strike or no strike, that had anything to do with other than teachers benefits and salaries. Why don't the teachers in the union put their uh reputation uh and their livelihood at stake for the benefit of the children once in a while?

[0:37:02] Randall Roth: Emmett, I really appreciate uh your comment. Uh again, I'm going to move on and hear from some more callers before we we open it up to our guest in the studio and to John Dolly. Let's go to Eric uh in Kapolei. Good morning, Eric.

[0:38:00] Caller: Good morning. Um just a couple of comments that are based on my experience with sending my children to uh elementary school in Hawaii. Um, first of all, I know that poor teachers uh are in the system and remain in the system. And there is really no vehicle for getting them out of the system except to have them retire. Um second, um if you have a child with special needs or even not a great special need or even a great special need, there's no mechanism for either choosing a teacher that would meet that child's needs or choosing not to have a teacher which you know specifically won't meet your child's needs. Um, the union won't allow it. All teachers are the same according to the union, and are equally capable of teaching all children. And that's something I've been told physically, so at least my it's my own experience. Okay. Finally, uh

[0:38:00] Speaker 2: number three. Um in response to the business of teachers not having to check bathrooms and things, um Sorry. My son just interrupted me. Teachers are in local parentis. They are the only parents that teach children have because they're required to be away from their parents to be in school. So, the teachers have to parent. They cannot just be educators. You cannot say, well, I'm only going to educate and when the kids are out in the hall or in the bathroom, they're all on their own because otherwise we're not doing any of uh our duty to society. We're just raising wild people.

[0:38:37] Speaker 1: Eric, thank you. We really appreciate your thoughts this morning. Let's move to David in Aiea. Good morning, David.

[0:38:43] Speaker 5: Good morning. Uh I've been teaching in the Dealy now for 10 and 10 years as of Y and I, and before that I taught in in a private school for nine years. And the only part and before that I worked in private industry, so I've had various experiences. And I would suggest that the only time I really needed the union or needed any kind of outside support was when I was in the public school.

[0:39:08] Speaker 5: And I value that that support really well when you are threatened, when you do go into a bathroom and you do monitor the bathroom like I have done over the years because I see problems developing and you are sworn at and threatened by students and then the administration does not follow up on any kind of discipline, you do need that uh voice of many, if you're a voice of one, you'll succeed.

[0:39:39] Speaker 5: I would also just one more thing. I would suggest to Mr. Mcfee and Mr. Dolly that for his replacement at the university now, come physically into the school and look at the problems and see what's going on before sweeping generalizations are made. I'll be glad to open my classroom to them.

[0:40:00] Speaker 1: Okay. David, thank you very much. We appreciate your call. You know, folks, just as soon as someone gets off the line, somebody else is on. I I know our lines are just going to be full right to the end of this show. Uh so again, I'm going to take a a few more calls and and then I want to hear from from our guests some more. Let's go to uh John Bickle has been on the line for for just a bit. John is a social studies teacher at Roosevelt High School and uh and ran for union president this last year and and wasn't successful. But John, I think you've got some some thoughts to share.

[0:40:30] John Dolly: Yes, thank you. Um, I I like to to start off by responding to um to Dean Dolly's comment that um the number of of teachers who send their kids to private schools is a message to the public. I would also also hope that it would be a message to policymakers because there are problems in the in the schools in in Hawaii and teachers know them best. We know the the problems of class size, of facilities and discipline. But I think it's not the strength of the teachers union, which is the cause of the problem, but rather the weakness of the teachers union.

[0:40:57] John Dolly: Um, if we have a strong union and the stronger the union, the more that we're going to be able to get something done on class size, facilities, and discipline. The one area of the contract where I do think that there's some some opportunity for change would be the area of teacher evaluation. Current system is called PATH, which is a system by which the teacher sits down with the principal and comes up with some objectives and at the end of the year, the teacher the principal signs saying that he's he's seen them. Unfortunately, it's primarily a joke. Um it it really doesn't happen, and I think something needs to change on that.

[0:41:26] John Dolly: My hope would be that the teachers union would sit down with the state after after making a strong campaign as to why we need more resources for education and say that look, we we'll make some agreements. We'll change path to make teachers more accountable, but we need a pay raise. And and the reason is not just because, you know, teachers are selfish, but rather we need to recruit and retain qualified teachers and we're currently not doing that. I have good friends in the teaching profession who have left the state of Hawaii because they could not afford to leave here.

[0:41:54] Speaker 1: John, uh I really appreciate your sharing your thoughts with us this morning. Uh anything else that that's pressing you need to share before Well, well, let me make one comment if I may about about this issue of uh of teachers monitoring bathrooms.

[0:42:06] John Dolly: Um, I I don't know of any architecture firm the architects to monitor the bathrooms or to to keep up after its clients in the in the waiting room. I don't know the same thing of doctors. If you're going to treat me as a professional and I have a master's degree, um then then really, I should be focusing on the thing I do best and the thing I do best is in the classroom.

[0:42:22] Speaker 1: Okay. And that's where my efforts should be. Okay. I I can sure understand that. Thank you, John. Appreciate your call. Let's take just a couple more. Bill from McCulley. Good morning, Bill.

[0:42:32] Caller: Hi, good morning. Uh well, I've got some comments and some questions. I'll make them real quick. Real quick. Okay. I've been uh teaching for over 25 years and fortunately have not had to answer to any unions and I find that as a professional, uh that it's not just teaching that I do. There's a lot of role modeling and uh monitoring and other things uh involved. So I have no problem with that. The uh both my children go to a private school because I visited all of the public schools here in on the island of Oahu and they're deplorable in physical condition and a lot of the teachers uh efforts are deplorable as well.

[0:43:08] Caller: The other thing, the question that I have for whoever can answer is, why is only one university out of four allowed to produce teachers? Why doesn't the DOA sanction uh BYUH or Hawaii Pacific University or Shamanad. Uh I think our teacher pull would be a lot more sophisticated, have broader perspective and probably gain a great deal. If anyone can answer that, I'd sure appreciate it.

[0:43:37] Speaker 1: Okay, next point. That's it. Okay. Okay, Bill, thank you. We really appreciate that. Um let's take a break from from our calls and and get some reactions or or if there are some additional points that need to be made because we're getting down to the last 15 minutes or so. First, uh John Dolly, just uh real briefly, any reaction to what you've been listening to or additional thoughts that need to be shared?

[0:43:58] John Dolly: Well, I got lots of them. Uh, first off, people have to remember the schools are not designed to solve society's social problems. We cannot make up for the fact that more kids are living in single parent households. Uh, as Rod noted earlier, we have the highest proportion of women in the workforce, uh, particularly married couples. The schools cannot take on that responsibility unless people are willing to put a massive infusion of resources uh into the schools, and I don't see that happening.

[0:44:31] John Dolly: In terms of dealing with poor teachers, I agree with the comments. The current PATH system is a joke. I think we need to look at some other way of evaluating teachers that's more meaningful, uh, that's easier, more specific, and has some reliability and validity. I'm not so sure that system does. The lack of discipline in schools is well noted. I think what the general public fails to recognize, I think Joan could speak to this, uh we're stuck with some students.

[0:44:56] John Dolly: We're stuck with some students in schools who shouldn't be there. Um they're put back there by the courts sometimes. Uh we simply can't get rid of kids that have no business being in school. Uh and I think we need to start looking at that issue. Is school an entitlement, or it's simply, it's an opportunity we give you. But when you abuse that opportunity, what, you know, what commitment do we have to you as a student? I think it's crazy. All institutions in the state of Hawaii have had teacher education programs, except Hawaii Pacific University. Shamanad produces teachers, UHE Hilo produces teachers, um, and uh BYU also produces teachers.

[0:45:42] Joan Husted: Well, what a wide ranging area of of of comments. Let's let's talk about a couple here. Uh poor teachers in the system and the teacher evaluation process. Um we wholeheartedly agree there ought to be a valid, workable teacher evaluation process. And right now, HSTA is involved with the Department of Education to take a look at designing a brand new teacher evaluation process. There's a task force on accountability and assessment. Um we think the problem with PATH is not with the instrument itself, but it's going to be a recurring problem, uh if something's not done. The span of supervision for most school administrators is a span that most businessmen would not allow to happen.

[0:46:27] Joan Husted: The principal at Farington High School, for example, has three vice principals and 142 teachers to evaluate. And that doesn't include custodians, cafeteria workers and other people. It's not going to be the instrument that's going to do it. It's going to be whether or not we can work with the span of supervision and get really valid evaluation processes in place. We support teacher evaluation. The second thing we support is a rigorous probationary period for teachers. When teachers come into the system, they must serve two years of probation and we think that ought to be a good solid testing period.

[0:47:03] Joan Husted: And at that point, if teachers are going to make it, they ought to get their tenure. If they're teachers who perhaps shouldn't be teaching, they shouldn't be tenured as teachers. Um There are a lot of needs for money. Uh the school system doesn't have the money. The national data shows the per pupil allocation is not where it ought to be and until the community makes a decision that it's going to support its public schools financially, we're going to continue to have these kinds of discussions.

[0:47:35] Rod McPhee: Well, I agree on the financial support, but I want to make sure that whatever we're talking about here, we're not talking only salaries. I think it's deplorable that we have physical conditions as bad as they are in our public schools, that we have youngsters with no teaching equipment, no textbooks. I was disappointed a few years ago when a lot of these things were reported about no textbooks and I didn't see the HSTA stepping out with a really strong position about this. Uh I also tend to agree with Eric's question uh or comments about children with special needs.

[0:48:11] Rod McPhee: Uh one of the things that seems to me was illustrated again a couple of years ago is a tremendous shortage of people in special education that we needed in the state of Hawaii and yet the HSTA resisted any efforts to pay them more to bring them here. The University of Hawaii has a far different system, uh you know, a professor of surgery gets more than a professor of economics. That may not be fair, but it's the marketplace and in Hawaii where we're short special education teachers, math teachers, science teachers, why doesn't the union permit us to pay more for those people in fields which are very difficult to find?

[0:48:50] Rod McPhee: Uh and the reason they don't, again goes back to union imperatives, which is everybody's the same, everybody's pretty equal, uh you know, all union members have to be paid on the same basis, which I find is a problem for the state of Hawaii.

[0:49:05] Speaker 1: Well, I want to remind listeners that this is Pop radio. We're talking about public schools, the impact of the teachers union. In the studio with me is Rod Mcfee, the President Emeritus of Punahou school and Joan Houston, an official with the Teachers Union, HSTA, the Hawaii State Teachers Association. Then we have by phone, John Dolly, who is the former Dean of the College of Education at the University of Hawaii. Our lines have been full the entire hour. I think we could have taken hundreds of calls if we had had time. So I I'm not even going to give the phone number again.

[0:49:35] Speaker 1: If you would like to uh see what we think will be a report on the show on the Channel 2 news this evening, you might check at 6:00 uh or perhaps at 10:00 and uh we think maybe there'll be a report on today's show. Also, if you missed part of the show and you'd like to hear it in its entirety, tonight at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM, we'll have the entire show rebroadcast. That's 1380 AM.

[0:50:00] Speaker 1: Well, um the next thing I guess uh Joan, any any thoughts and then I I've got some some more callers, and we're going to take a few more, but I know you're chomping at the bit. Uh you've heard a lot that you want to respond to.

[0:50:11] Joan Husted: Well, let's just let's just talk about a couple of things. One is the whole business of of lobbying for more textbooks and lower class sizes. Uh I I'm sorry that Rod feels that we've not been very active in that area because quite frankly, sometimes we're the only ones in the hallways of the state legislature. Uh you probably probably remember a couple of public rallies that we brought the parents and educational officers and everybody to talk about resources in schools. And we're not talking about money just going to teacher salaries. We're talking about money across the board that have to go into facility so kids learn in those facilities. They've got to be first rate.

[0:50:49] Joan Husted: Um the the old issue of maybe we should pay shortage areas um more money than we pay uh other teachers is really a debate going on within the organization itself. Uh basically we've taken the position that we think the money is better spend improving the conditions in schools that will attract these teachers to come in rather than pay certain groups of teachers the money to work in bad situations. Um and unfortunately a large number of our special education teachers are not properly certified in special education, and that raises a real question about paying them more money if they're not properly certified.

[0:51:26] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's take a a few more calls and then we'll get some responses to to the calls and give our guests an opportunity to make some closing statements. First, Marjorie in Honolulu. Good morning, Marjorie.

[0:51:36] Caller: Good morning and thank you for a most interesting program. What I would like to ask about is again the question of teachers sending their children to private schools and the message given to taxpayers. Well, wouldn't it also gives the message to the taxpayers that it's our money that's paying the teachers to subsidize their children to go to private schools and isn't that sort of works?

[0:52:01] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, I appreciate your your comment. Uh let's go to Evan in Kailua and Evan, if you could keep it tight, we're going to try to get to the folks who've been waiting a long time on the line uh and we just have a couple minutes.

[0:52:12] Speaker 7: Evan in Kailua. Hi um, I've been listening to the program. I love to it every Sunday but uh a question on this is why even though there's public and private schools, why don't we have a technical school? Something that could help out the economy so that when the students of of Hawaii graduate, they could help the economy and stay in Hawaii instead of going to places like Seattle or Oregon or California.

[0:52:34] Speaker 1: Uh-huh. You know John Dolly who's available by phone had um I guess it was a column by Bud Smiser based on an interview with John Dolly and and John, if I recall, you had uh uh suggested something along these same lines. John Dolly, can you hear me?

[0:52:47] John Dolly: Yeah. I yeah I think in a sense we've abandoned uh technical education in the public schools with the rationale that we'd make it available in the community colleges. But the fact is, we have 40% of our kids that kind of fall through a loop and never go on to any level of higher education. And I have some concerns that we're really not connecting these kids with the with the work world and I think we ought to offer some kinds of programs that would interest kids as early as intermediate uh or middle school because we have to realize that a large proportion of youngsters in the state will not complete a college degree.

[0:53:20] John Dolly: Okay. And unless we give them some skills, they're not going to be very employable.

[0:53:24] Speaker 1: Okay. Very quickly let's go to Shoshana in Honolulu. Good morning, Shoshana.

[0:53:28] Speaker 4: Uh good morning. Um I have both a comment and um perhaps something that will lead to in in the realm of a question and I'll I'll try and make it as brief as possible. The first thing is about the whole issue of credentials getting basic certification and PD. Um I have taught not only in the public school system, but also in a private school system here. Um, I do not have credentials. All of the private schools here that is in I I do have academic credentials, they don't have education courses per se.

[0:53:57] Speaker 4: All of the private schools that I've been involved with here in Honolulu, uh have hired me with no question and I have served competently, in fact, I've gotten some sort of certification waiver. My affiliation with the public school system is on a part time temporary basis, so I'm so called not don't need credentials. My observation all and question also has to do with very underserved area and that has to do with English as a second language. There are literally hundreds of people on this island with a fine masters from the University of Hawaii, which has the nation's number one ESL program in the United States and nationwide.

[0:54:31] Speaker 4: But the DOE will not hire them because they don't have credentials. Uh Eloni that has an ESL program will hire them. These programs are terribly underserved. We have teachers in the program who just have courses in reading or a course here in linguistics. The reality is and I know it's from resources What I'm saying is that DOE teachers do not have the credentials and if they do, I have been told by resource teachers that they will not use them. They've used them only for this, whatever it is to get a a salary increment. The system is is failing these kids. I don't think the people need these so-called education courses. This is simply protectionism.

[0:55:06] Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you. We really appreciate your thoughts and I'm sorry to rush you, but I want to give our guests one minute each and that's exactly what you have. Uh let's start with John Dolly by phone. You've got no more than one minute, John. Can you sum up your thoughts?

[0:55:20] John Dolly: Well I I think go back to the beginning and I think I agree with Rod and and I think Joan, too that children need to be the focus and we better start looking at all arrangements and that includes union contracts, uh state policy on education. Anything that doesn't make children the focus, I think is a waste of time and money. I also have some concerns with teachers having tenure in the state. I've written about this previously. Teachers should be tenured in their schools, but they shouldn't be able to move across the state the way they can do now where we have in some instances, 40% turnover in some schools.

[0:55:51] John Dolly: I don't care how much money you put into a school, 40% turnover in teachers, you will not have a good education program. But clearly the state is underfunded in terms of its K-12 system.

[0:56:00] Speaker 1: John, very quickly, the one word from your chapter in The Price of Paradise, Volume 1, that sticks with me is the word bizarre, which you use to describe the notion of having principals in a union.

[0:56:10] John Dolly: Yeah, I'm very disturbed with that. I think the fact that they won't even come on your program and discuss the issue is I think it's crazy and I've said that before. If you're a manager, manage like the university, you could have tenure as a teacher, but the idea that somebody would actually have tenure in the school as a manager is beyond comprehension to me.

[0:56:28] Rod McPhee: Well, John is absolutely right in in that statement about uh principles being in the union and and not being managers. I think that's one of the major difficulties in the state of Hawaii with respect to any possible change. I've written that, I've stated it, and and uh I'm delighted that John uh agrees on that because I couldn't agree more. I think he's also absolutely right in saying that what Hawaii needs more than anything are advocates for children. HSTA is doing some of that, but I don't and Joan has pointed out where they're doing it, but I don't

[0:57:00] Speaker 2: see others doing it and I think that the children of Hawaii are suffering because the legislature and the governor and others are not doing what they should for the benefit of the kids who live here.

[0:57:09] Speaker 1: Okay. Joan, you get the luxury of the last word, but it's got to be a quick one.

[0:57:12] Joan Husted: Uh, the the issue is quality. We want quality education for our kids. We want you to come out January 17th at 3:30 on the lawn of the capitol and demonstrate your commitment to public education.

[0:57:24] Speaker 1: Thank you, Joan. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. Aloha.

[0:57:31] Speaker 8: drinking water and it was uh the contaminants that could be allowed in drinking water. They held the meeting in a room that holds three people. The Hawaii Supreme Court decision and incidentally the the notice read Bob, you're going to have to make this quickly.

[0:57:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, the notice read that uh, basically you think they were doing something good for the water when it was exactly the opposite. Hawaii Supreme Court essentially said they could say anything and they could hold the meeting in a phone booth if they wanted to. Okay. Bob, thank you for your comments. We go to Dave on Oahu. Good morning, Dave.

[0:57:59] Speaker 9: Yeah, I just uh like to follow up on the point on trusting local officials. Uh, I think it has a lot to do with process and I was wondering if Linda might be a little more specific about which local officials might be trusted, and and I'm directed more at the issue of uh, the the current debate on uh, Home Rule between the counties and the and the state. Uh, is she suggesting that all these rules be revised and considered at the county level or at the state level. Uh, I'd like some clarification on that point.

[0:58:30] Speaker 1: Okay, and it's Lisa Munger and I think we're tripping up on that word trust. Uh, Lisa, can you comment on Dave's question?

[0:58:38] Speaker 10: Um, Dave, I'm I guess I'm of the view that with regard to environmental regulations particularly, that that should be at the state level while land use probably at the local level is is my personal view. Uh, the reason that I think that perhaps the environmental regulations ought to be at the state level and by this I mean technical standards uh, for various pollutants. Uh, because it requires a some amount of expertise and I think probably it's more efficient to have that in one place at the Department of Health rather than to duplicate that on each of the islands.