Protecting the Environment
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1993-10-08
Guests: Patricia Tummons (founder, Environment Hawaii newsletter); Kirk R. Smith (Senior Fellow and Program on Environment Coordinator, East-West Center)
Duration: 0:26:33

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: I'm Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. Stay tuned, in just a few minutes, I'll be talking to East-West Center Senior Fellow, Kirk Smith and Environment Hawaii editor, Pat Tummons about current and future threats to Hawaii's natural environment. Good morning. I'm Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. Today's question is how well are we taking care of our natural environment? And with me to discuss it are Kirk Smith and Pat Tummons.

[0:01:03] Randall Roth: Kirk, you wrote in volume two of the Price of Paradise that Hawaii's natural environment is in pretty good shape, that we're at the top of just about every good list. But Pat's newsletter highlights what seems to be a major environmental concern each and every month. Do you and Pat simply disagree about the quality of Hawaii's environment, or can your positions somehow be reconciled?

[0:01:23] Kirk R. Smith: Well, I think that's not quite the position I took in the Price of Paradise volume. I tried to show people how Hawaii is very unique position in the world, being Honolulu being the most remote city in human history, for example, gives us some particular advantages. Nothing of our doing, but just because we're so remote, we have a very clean environment compared to most places in the world and most places in history. However, that same remoteness also makes us very vulnerable to impact on our unique ecosystems. So it's a combination of being favored but being vulnerable.

[0:01:56] Randall Roth: And I want to come back to to the ecosystem issue. Uh but Pat, other than the ecosystem, are there some environmental concerns that to you are are screaming concerns that we really need to pay a lot of attention to?

[0:02:09] Patricia Tummons: Absolutely. Um going back to what Kirk just said, for example about Hawaii's favored position globally, uh I think this notion that we have no air pollution problems because the trade winds carry um our pollution to sea is an extremely short-sighted notion. Uh sooner or later, if we embrace the theory of global warming and rising sea levels and ozone depletion, all of our pollution is going to come back to roost in one or another form.

[0:02:38] Patricia Tummons: Apart from that, I think Hawaii is facing critical problems with regulation of coastal activity. It's uh with regulation of uh the types of activities that have a great impact on water quality, both underground water quality as well as coastal water quality. Uh I I see many, many problems out there besides ecosystems.

[0:03:01] Randall Roth: I I want to come back and and get some more items on that list. But first, Kirk, can you respond to to Pat's comments about air pollution and how we need to be looking at this on a on a world global level rather than just the impact on those of us here in Hawaii?

[0:03:14] Kirk R. Smith: Yeah, certainly. If you're looking at greenhouse gases or ozone depleting materials, that's uh very important worldwide these days. But when I talking about pollution being clean and so forth, it's talking about local kinds of pollution. And let me say from the outset that I've come at this from a very different picture, from very different position than many people. My work looks at environmental problems both uh in developing countries and throughout the world. And my concern also concern is looked at historical environmental problems and in the context of history or the world today, Honolulu has probably the least air pollution in world history.

[0:03:48] Kirk R. Smith: For any city over 500,000, uh I can't think of one today. And cities in the old days were not clean of course.

[0:03:55] Randall Roth: So if if we've got limited resources which obviously we do, you're suggesting that that maybe uh air pollution is not the place to start because of our unique situation.

[0:04:05] Kirk R. Smith: That's exactly Yeah, exactly right. We want to eventually we want to eliminate all human made toxins circulating in the environment and a good deal more of the natural toxins. But that's that day is far off. We can't afford to get there now and we don't know how to get there now in some cases.

[0:04:19] Kirk R. Smith: So the question is what is the best pathway from here to there? So yes, air pollution will someday be an important issue in Honolulu, and certainly if we let things slide, it'll be that day will be sooner. But in in the meantime, we have a lot more pressing priorities. We can put air pollution down the line. Doesn't mean we're off the hook, it means that we just put it at a different point in our priority than Los Angeles.

[0:04:39] Randall Roth: Except for the ecosystem issue which you mentioned is at the top of your list. Uh what are some of the things that should be up toward the top of our list of concerns?

[0:04:47] Kirk R. Smith: Well I certainly agree that coastal zone management is one of the most serious things. Very difficult thing to get at what what Pat mentioned.

[0:04:53] Randall Roth: Can can you give me an example of something specific that that our listeners should know about?

[0:04:56] Kirk R. Smith: Well the biggest thing is is the runoff. Uh uncontrolled runoff from construction and uh it I've been told that there are laws on the books in Hawaii that should control that, but these laws are generally not enforced.

[0:05:08] Randall Roth: Why is that?

[0:05:10] Kirk R. Smith: I can't tell you why.

[0:05:10] Randall Roth: Who's dropping the ball? Whose job is that, Pat?

[0:05:12] Patricia Tummons: The control of nonpoint source pollution, which is another fancier name for the runoff, has been historically very uncontrolled. No, there have not been enforceable regulations on the books until within the last year, I believe. Uh now the EPA, the um federal Coastal Zone Management Program and the state um Department of Health and the State Office of State Planning are all working together to try to develop management practices as well as uh regulatory schemes that can be enforced for control of uh pollution that comes not simply from construction, but also from such things as agricultural runoff where you have nutrient loading from fertilizers, where you have chemical loadings from various types of pesticides.

[0:06:01] Patricia Tummons: Um the kind of runoff that you get even from residential areas where you've had no construction for 50 or 60 or 70 years is extremely important in uh adding to the overall pollution in the coastal area as well.

[0:06:14] Randall Roth: But you're saying the powers to be are aware of it, they're working on it and it sounds as though it's a matter of time before it's under more control than it's under now, is that the idea?

[0:06:22] Patricia Tummons: I would like to think that it would be um in the future more better control than it is now. However, there's a great resistance to efforts to regulate this, because efforts to regulate nonpoint source pollution equal regulation of land use and there's a great deal of resistance to any encroachment on what I can do with my land.

[0:06:47] Randall Roth: Kirk, any thoughts on that?

[0:06:48] Kirk R. Smith: No, I certainly agree. That's a principle issue in Hawaii in general, is land use.

[0:06:51] Randall Roth: What about water? Pat mentioned uh concerns about water quality just a little bit ago. Kirk, is that something we need to be more concerned about than we have as a community?

[0:06:59] Kirk R. Smith: Well again, uh it's a matter of what perspective you take. If you look on a national basis or a global basis, we have very clean water supplies. However, we do have capability now to measure toxins, you know, uh chemicals at very low levels in water, so we're getting we're getting beginning to pick up things even in our fairly clean water supply. Doesn't automatically eliminate all our water as being perfectly of concern, but I'm just saying putting in a historical or international perspective it might not be the highest priority.

[0:07:27] Patricia Tummons: Well, I think that we we don't yet have a handle on how bad things may be in the future. In the case of a lot of the pesticides and that were used in agricultural um fields over the years, some of them may take years, decades to migrate down to the level where they impact on our underground aquifers.

[0:07:48] Patricia Tummons: Right now, we're seeing in the Central uh Oahu plain um Del Monte has a proposed Superfund site. Some of the chemicals that were used by the military. It's Schofield Barracks are beginning to seep their way down into the aquifer. You have the potential, I would say, for increasing um discovery of pollutants without any kind of ability to ameliorate their presence.

[0:08:14] Randall Roth: Kirk, I know in your chapter in in the Price of Paradise you had said we've not done as good a job with pesticides as as we could have, should have. Are we doing a better job now and do you agree with Pat's suggestion that we may have a time bomb? We may have some pesticides already on their way to the aquifer?

[0:08:29] Kirk R. Smith: Well, you're not going to get an academic to say we don't need more research. We certainly do need to watch these things that are happening and there have been some cases where it has showed up in the water supply.

[0:08:37] Randall Roth: Is there something we can do about it now?

[0:08:39] Kirk R. Smith: Well there are things you can do to clean the water supply if you find them in it. Uh this again, it's a question of relative amounts. We're talking about the for example these wells that were where's Mililani Town that what they put in the charcoal activated charcoal filters. Where they stripped out the toxic chemicals course they end up with charcoal that has toxic chemicals on it. But there are 700 wells in Florida that have more than a thousand times the same amount of pollution that are still being used daily. Yes, there's pollution there, but the question is how important is it related to all our other concerns?

[0:09:11] Randall Roth: Can I ask the two of you, do you drink tap water or do you have some sort of filter system in your home, Pat?

[0:09:16] Patricia Tummons: I drink tap water.

[0:09:18] Randall Roth: Now that sounds good to me. What do you think, Kirk? When I'm not drinking beer, yes. Uh, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Kirk Smith, a senior fellow in the East-West Center's program on environment, and Pat Tummons, the editor of Environment Hawaii.

[0:09:34] Randall Roth: Golf courses. That's a topic I've talked to a number of guests about, and uh generally speaking, people that I've talked to have been fairly positive. And yet with golf courses, we get uh the pesticides and herbicides and uh those sorts of water issues, and a number of other uh issues as well. Kirk, what do you think just generally about golf course development in Hawaii?

[0:09:56] Kirk R. Smith: Well, I have ambivalent feelings so it, probably like almost everybody in Hawaii. On the one hand, I recognize these problems, particularly with the high chemical use that happens in golf courses, and non-point source pollution that results. You know there's also the concern about is it really meeting the needs of the broader public in terms of use of land? On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised that in 50 years, we're putting up monuments to the people who built those golf courses, because it may be the only open land left.

[0:10:20] Randall Roth: What do you mean by that?

[0:10:21] Kirk R. Smith: Well, um we aren't very good at controlling land use in the state and things keep getting filled up, conservation land doesn't usually get formed, it gets variances that gets build on. Golf courses will be eventually large, open areas of land, that could be used for parks and other things in the future. I'm saying, you know, I don't play golf to me attracting the golf tourist industry isn't isn't all that important, but and I do have these concerns about the the high chemical use in some of these courses.

[0:10:50] Randall Roth: I hear you saying it's almost uh temporary stage, it's a way of keeping it uh from being developed.

[0:10:57] Kirk R. Smith: Well, I'm not sure you, you know, I think that may be the result and I don't think that's anybody's intention at this point.

[0:11:02] Patricia Tummons: I think that golf courses can be very, very bad, if if the management practices are not uh state-of-the-art. I think you can have a lot of mitigating circumstances where you have low input uh fertilizer and chemicals. In the long run, I think you're not going to mitigate the problems associated with runoff. They're going to show up sooner or later. You have other problems such as compaction of the earth that might have other environmental consequences.

[0:11:30] Patricia Tummons: I really think, if you're going to be talking about the price of Paradise though, you you can't ignore the impact that golf courses have on the prices of the adjoining lands. Anytime you have a golf course, you can just rest assured that whoever is sitting on the fringe is either come into a bonanza, or they have paid a bonanza for that privilege. So I think that anyone's concerned with the price of living here has to be concerned with the proliferation of golf courses for that reason alone.

[0:11:58] Randall Roth: So you would say the economist who say it's good to add value to something that maybe they're missing the point?

[0:12:05] Patricia Tummons: If you're the owner of the property, it's great to add value. But if you're someone who's just trying to struggle along, it's not so good.

[0:12:12] Randall Roth: I see. Pat, I know you've been very critical of the military and the military's uh impact on the environment here in Hawaii. What is one specific concern regarding the military that you might want to mention?

[0:12:24] Patricia Tummons: I don't believe that the military is ever going to be able to clean up the land that it has occupied to the point where it can be available for unrestricted use. And this is of concern when we have so little land in this state. Already, we have the area of Waikane Valley that's been put off limits to the Hawaiian family that had farmed that land for centuries. We have areas such as Makua Valley, which again is a a natural area, it's it's beautiful. It has a lot of endangered species and the like. We're never going to be able to use that for anything other than a reserve.

[0:12:58] Randall Roth: Okay. Kirk, any thoughts on that?

[0:13:00] Kirk R. Smith: No, I think it's very appropriate now that the public attention is being turned toward the environmental impacts of the military in general. They've been able to get away with things for years because of these concern, the Cold War concerns and so on. Now, very much appropriate that we push them very hard to come under the same laws as everyone else.

[0:13:17] Randall Roth: Have they cleaned up their act? If they can't clean up what they've messed up in the past, have they at least cleaned up their act so that they're not creating these same problems?

[0:13:28] Patricia Tummons: It's very difficult to know what they're doing. There are a lot of people in the military, I think, who have an a greatly enhanced awareness of the need to get a handle on the pollution. But one of the institutional problems with the military is the turnover, and with the exception of the most elite officer corps, you have people coming in, they're mustering out in two years or or three and in any case, they're not going to be around when suddenly someone discovers that they have really messed up.

[0:14:01] Patricia Tummons: I think this constant turnover, the lack of continuity, is a huge problem in having accountability within the ranks of the military, and this is seen, it's manifested in their environmental management practices.

[0:14:14] Randall Roth: So if the individuals who are making those decisions thought their children were going to be growing up and living in Hawaii that maybe they would have a different attitude?

[0:14:22] Patricia Tummons: I think if they thought they were going to be caught, they would have a different attitude.

[0:14:26] Kirk R. Smith: Well, one thing I've been saying for years is the people in Hawaii, some people in Hawaii are proud of the fact that we don't have nuclear power plants here, and don't aren't going to be relying on nuclear power in the future. But actually, Hawaii has perhaps the most nuclear reactors per capita of almost any place in the world. And these reactors of course, are not power plants and they're not all in town at the same time usually. These are the submarine reactors that are stationed at Pearl Harbor.

[0:14:53] Kirk R. Smith: So the whole set of concerns related to nuclear waste and nuclear safety have uh sort of been have avoided the the military side of this but now's the time with the change in the the in the global picture to push hard on on some of these issues.

[0:15:08] Randall Roth: Kirk, how scared should I be at these roving nuclear power plants?

[0:15:13] Kirk R. Smith: No, I are there been very few accidents in the in the on the US side in these things. The Russians have had some we know, but uh all I'm saying is now is the time to open it up, now is the time to get the procedures and regulations in that to make make sure that they're handled properly.

[0:15:27] Randall Roth: Because we haven't known in the past exactly how it was being handled, now we need to be more. Well and the things we've learned for example with the Handford military base, I mean the Department of Energy has got a great plan and they've spent the first 50 years of after World War Two not being waste around and now they're going to spend the next 50 years cleaning it up.

[0:16:00] Patricia Tummons: Now with the reassessment of the environmental consequences of the Navy's practices, we here in Hawaii have a little bit of a wedge to figure out what has been going on there and what should be going on or will go on in the future.

[0:16:26] Randall Roth: But in the meantime, where they have been sending the nuclear waste, that place Idaho, or Montana, I believe they're saying no way, they don't want it anymore.

[0:16:34] Patricia Tummons: Well, it's a federal judge that's saying no way because of the failure of the Department of Energy to comply with environmental laws.

[0:16:43] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Kirk Smith, a senior fellow in the East-West Center's program on environment and Pat Tummons, the editor of Environment Hawaii. Kirk, what do you say to people who who are concerned that if you take the environmentalist position to the extreme, we have no business activity whatsoever. Uh there are some who would say if we're going to have any sort of of business activity or industrial activity, you're going to have to accept some sort of compromise when it comes to protecting the environment. What's your reaction to that?

[0:17:18] Kirk R. Smith: Well again, I think you can put this in the framework uh that I was speaking of before, lining things up according to the priorities. And you'll find that there are lots of things that can be done for the next years that really bring a big environmental benefit that don't seriously impair business. Uh at least business in general, there may be specific businesses obviously that you're going to have to restrict.

[0:17:38] Randall Roth: So it doesn't have to be a win-lose, it can be win-win or at least win-neutral.

[0:17:43] Kirk R. Smith: Well in the long run I think it's and even most big business would agree. It's a win-win situation. They can't exist in a long-term deteriorating environment.

[0:17:51] Patricia Tummons: Uh I would wholeheartedly agree with Kirk, I would point out that nationwide, companies have been finding out that the less waste that they generate, the sounder their their environmental practices, the more they have to show at the end of the year. Uh good environmental management is very consistent with good resource management in the sense of profitability. Uh, but also I think it's very interesting here in Hawaii we've discovered a a new industry and that is the cleanup industry. I wish I had a dollar for every mainland firm that has immigrated to do business in Hawaii because of the massive cleanups now at Pearl Harbor, at Schofield Barracks and elsewhere.

[0:18:31] Randall Roth: Who's paying for that cleanup generally?

[0:18:34] Patricia Tummons: Uh at the military bases, it's the taxpayer. Uh in some of the other cases, it's private industry at Hawaiian Western steel, for example, which is a very large private uh contaminated site.

[0:18:47] Randall Roth: Kirk, I've I've heard about something called HERR, uh HRR, the Hawaii Environmental Risk Ranking. Can you briefly tell us what that is and and whether you agree with it or not?

[0:19:00] Randall Roth: through um actually a national study that was done for the environmental protection agency where they asked senior scientists to examine risks in the United States and rank them by their importance. And then after this was done, they compared it with the funding that the national EPA has, and interestingly enough, the the two list were exactly inverse that is the things that had the most funding, had the least risk according to the experts.

[0:19:23] Randall Roth: So it concerned the scientists, evidently, didn't concern the politicians as much as well, well, you know, they they environmental protection agency is reflected in their budget.

[0:19:32] Randall Roth: And then when they did a public opinion survey, they found that public opinion was quietly quite closely correlated to EPA's funding schedule. So you could say that EPA was doing its job, that is, it was reflecting public opinion. But with that But it's a little disconcerting that Yeah, does that suggest that the the public is uh is not properly informed of what our biggest concerns should be?

[0:19:51] Randall Roth: Well, you know, it's it's a tricky business because uh just the absolute quantity of a risk may not be the only thing that the public considers when they want to do something about it. For example, the thing that had the highest priority in terms of funding was the superfund, you know, they're dealing with hazardous waste sites, which are very low in terms of absolute risk but very high on everyone's outrage factor.

[0:20:11] Randall Roth: I mean, we're all outraged this stuff got dumped out and companies went broke and you know, pretended it wasn't there and this kind of thing. But you have to recognize we're not getting a big public health benefit from that from that cleanup, although we may be getting substantial other benefits.

[0:20:25] Randall Roth: Pat, do you uh generally feel that that how we're spending our limited resources is upside down or or do you feel differently?

[0:20:33] Patricia Tummons: Um, well, I I have no real opinion on that. I think that everywhere you turn, there needs to be more money spent and I would hesitate to say that some other some valid and legitimate program should suffer because some other program is not getting enough money. Uh, one problem that I have with the her or hair ranking is that it seems to be very anthropogenic, that risks are associated with human health rather than overall environmental health. If you're going to be looking to the protection of ecosystems and endangered species, the that particular risk ranking is not going to be what determines your priorities.

[0:21:13] Randall Roth: Oh, now we got Kirk excited. This is his special area.

[0:21:16] Kirk R. Smith: Well, this is a point of just of information. There was two volumes of this thing, one was the environmental health side and the other focus specifically on the ecosystems. Actually, I think the ecosystems one is the better of the two, developed a new method that they're going to be using in other parts of the country now. It really looks and and and finds a way to make rankings of the vulnerability of of important ecosystems and the stressers in it.

[0:21:37] Kirk R. Smith: But you're but they're in the other part of If you only read the other part, you probably wouldn't get it because it's only concerned with environmental health issues. Let let's talk about the protection of of ecosystems. I know Kirk and in your chapter, you say other communities in the United States may have a tough time choosing their priorities, but here in Hawaii, ours is real clear. Tell us what ours should be and why?

[0:21:57] Kirk R. Smith: Yeah, I think we we're benefiting, we're in paradise to an extent. This is the name of this book and this program, um with a unique situation, relatively clean environment, beautiful weather, uh moderate conditions of all sorts. And yet, um, we have it gives us a uh stewardship over that environment to make sure that it stays that way. And the and the as you know, there are more endangered species in Hawaii than the rest of the country put together.

[0:22:24] Kirk R. Smith: We have 10,000 endemic species here more than any place else in the world, endemic meaning species that uh only exist here, and a very special situation. I don't think that people in Hawaii realize how special it is, how Hawaii's ecosystems are sometimes on the na the top of the list of national environmental programs, people in Boston and people in Washington and in San Francisco were concerned with Hawaii's ecosystems, and yet people in Hawaii don't seem to be aware of how special they are.

[0:22:50] Randall Roth: Well, but there was a piece in the newspaper just a few days ago where some politician in Washington was ridiculing the money being spent on our brown tree snake patrol. These dogs that sniff out for the the brown tree snake. Um is that just some nut in Washington or is this widespread that people don't appreciate how important this is to us, Pat?

[0:23:09] Patricia Tummons: I think that that particular remark was most unfortunate. Uh if you're on the mainland where the brown tree snake might not be, you know, it's just one more snake. You don't assign much value to the presence or absence of snakes, without understanding that snakes are not here, you don't appreciate how important it is to keep them out.

[0:23:30] Randall Roth: What about the feral pig? Kirk says get rid of that thing. Disaster. I agree with Kirk all together on that. It's unfortunate that it's turned in in some cases to a cultural question. Uh I I think that the Hawaiian pig was much smaller and did not do nearly the damage that the present wild pigs do. So you think it's it's just a uh a mistaken understanding when people say, well, we need to preserve the culture, which includes the feral pig.

[0:23:55] Patricia Tummons: I do.

[0:23:56] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, what can we do to protect our our ecosystem, the the individual in Hawaii? What can we do?

[0:24:05] Patricia Tummons: I think be very mindful of the impacts of the least of our actions on the environment, whether it's using water, whether it's recycling, whether it's uh driving extra trips in our car.

[0:24:15] Randall Roth: Live simply, huh? That's right. Yeah. So and do that on your own. And on the other hand, be sure you find politicians to get into office who have uh agree about Hawaii's special nature.

[0:24:26] Patricia Tummons: Exactly.

[0:24:27] Randall Roth: Is there uh is there a job to convince other people that this is important? Uh it seems to me there's an awful lot of people who say, who cares how many indigenous species we have and how many we lose. Uh what do you say to someone like that, Kirk?

[0:24:42] Kirk R. Smith: Well, they should read the book.

[0:24:45] Randall Roth: Pat, do you have other advice?

[0:24:47] Patricia Tummons: Um, I think there's a a need and perhaps a growing awareness to recognize the importance that species play to the overall picture of our environment, whether or not we know what particular role they play or not.

[0:24:59] Randall Roth: So in some cases it's the fact that we don't know what they have to offer that makes it that much more important that we protect them.

[0:25:06] Patricia Tummons: That's right.

[0:25:07] Randall Roth: We've got just a few seconds left. Kirk, any parting thoughts?

[0:25:10] Kirk R. Smith: Well, in addition to reading the book, they should read Pat's magazine every month, it has a good source of information in this area.

[0:25:17] Randall Roth: Yeah, I I wasn't familiar with it until quite recently and I was very impressed with the quality of environment Hawaii.

[0:25:22] Patricia Tummons: Thank you.

[0:25:23] Randall Roth: Our guest this week were East-West Center researcher Kirk Smith and environment journalist Pat Timmons. This show was produced by Jill Center with technical assistance from Rick Stanley. We would like to hear your thoughts about what we've said or not said. Those comments can be sent to me in Care of Hawaii Public Radio. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.