Privatization of Government Services
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-04-27
Guests: Linda Lingle (Mayor of Maui County)
Duration: 1:04:13

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise radio show. We're sponsored by the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that encourages grassroot efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Today's topic is privatization. It's an especially timely topic because of a very recent Hawaii Supreme Court decision and related attempts by the Hawaii state legislature to deal with this topic of privatization. We'll get to the details in just a few minutes, but first, I want to share the good news. We have with us in the studio this morning a person who has emerged as the number one spokesperson on what I'll call the pro-privatization side of this issue.
[00:00:43] Randall Roth: She can tell us if she's not at the end of the spectrum, but at least the newspapers have described her as the the lightning rod on that side of of this controversy. She's the one who has stepped forward and argued that the Supreme Court was simply wrong in deciding this case and that the legislature simply has to do something to address what otherwise will be the catastrophic consequences of this opinion. Her name is Maui Mayor, Linda Lingle and I'll tell you a little bit more about Linda in just a minute. But first, I want to share the bad news, which is that despite our attempts to get somebody from the other side of the issue, ideally, UPW, that is the government workers union head, Gary Rodrigues, here, we weren't able to get Gary to come into the studio at least.
[00:01:31] Randall Roth: After being turned down by him, we asked a dozen or so others from the various government unions or from the legislature, people who are perceived as as pro-union, members of that body, the union's lawyer, just a a number of people and their first reaction would be, 'You really ought to have Gary Rodrigues.' He's, I guess, Mayor Lingle's counterpart in the sense that he at least is perceived as being at the other end of of this spectrum, the person who is very, very much against privatization. I've been told that Gary probably will be listening this morning. Gary, if you're out there, our number is 955-8821. We would love to hear your voice. We would love to hear your side of this issue.
[00:02:14] Randall Roth: But with that introduction, I want to tell you that Mayor Linda Crocket Lingle is here. She was a member of the Maui council for 10 years. She's currently in her first or in her second term as Mayor. Her first job when she got out of school and came to Hawaii was working for Art Rudledge at the Teamsters and Hotel workers local number five union. She's a journalist by profession. Welcome to the Price of Paradise Radio Show, Linda.
[00:02:40] Linda Lingle: Good morning, Randy. It's great to be here to talk about an issue that is extremely important to the future of services for the people of Hawaii.
[00:02:48] Randall Roth: I think a lot of our listeners realize that this was an important topic a year ago and it's likely to be an important topic in a year or 10 years or or 20 years, but it is especially timely right now. Could you go back just two months in time and tell us what your thinking about privatization was before this Kono opinion? That's the name of the Hawaii Supreme Court case that I made reference to earlier. What you're thinking about privatization was before you read the opinion and then the impact that that opinion had on your thinking.
[00:03:22] Linda Lingle: Privatization is one tool that government has to provide the best, most cost-effective services for the people of Hawaii. It is not the answer to all of our problems, but it is certainly one tool that we need to have to make sure we can get people the services that they need. When the Kono decision came in, what it said was we could not continue to contract the way we have for decades in Hawaii, and it's not only the counties that contract, it's the states. To give you some idea of the magnitude of the number of private contracts that exist, the state judiciary has identified 800 private contracts that they have with various companies and organizations. State Department of Health has 500 contracts.
[00:04:03] Linda Lingle: In the county of Maui, we have over 150 contracts with private companies and another 100 or so with private organizations, so the impact is going to be very great on organizations as well as companies.
[00:04:15] Randall Roth: So when we're talking about privatization, we're talking about government services being provided by the private sector and you used the term contract out, evidently that's the process by which those private sector individuals or organizations are given that task.
[00:04:30] Linda Lingle: That's correct. It's a public bidding procedure and people submit a bid, it's opened in public, and that company that can provide the best service at the lowest cost is awarded the contract.
[00:04:41] Randall Roth: So, up until two months ago, we had lots of contracting out to the private sector so a substantial degree of privatization, but then along comes the Supreme Court of Hawaii and basically says it's illegal unless...
[00:04:55] Linda Lingle: What they said is that under existing law, we can't do it, but the legislature has the ability to correct the law to allow us to continue to operate the way we have for decades. The Supreme Court was very clear they didn't want to take away the legislature's prerogative and they put it clearly in the legislature's court, and that's why it's so important for the legislature to take action.
[00:05:16] Randall Roth: And that, of course, makes it very, very political and you and a number of other officials from the counties and and from the state, have been down at the legislature over the last couple months lobbying hard for legislation that would upset this Kono opinion, that would take us back to where we were two months ago in terms of what we thought the law was. On the other side has been Gary Rodrigues from the UPW and other government worker unions. What is it that they've been arguing?
[00:05:45] Linda Lingle: I'm not sure, and it's too bad that he can't be here this morning to express himself.
[00:05:49] Randall Roth: And that number again, Gary, is 955-8821. No, I'm, I'm, I do hope that he calls. But let me give you a real challenge and I'm told that one reason Abraham Lincoln was such a great lawyer and such a great statesman was that he had this this knack for being able to very fairly sum up his opponent's argument. Do the best job you possibly can in making Gary's argument. So are you going to take the place of Abraham Lincoln in this morning? I'm looking at you.
[00:06:18] Linda Lingle: Uh they've been putting out false information on this issue and I think this is one point that is very important to clear up for all your listeners, and that is not one government worker has lost a job because of contracting out for services. And in fact, life in Hawaii has been made much better because of our ability to contract out. We have never wanted to uh get rid of any government worker and in fact, we support the civil service system. We think it's an important system to protect government workers. But what contracting allows you to do is to expand existing services in a time when the state simply doesn't have the economic resources to provide all the services that it needs to.
[00:06:57] Randall Roth: But but wouldn't he argue that any governmental function that's performed by somebody in the private sector, even if it's not taking a job away from somebody who presently is doing that job, that in the long run, it means you're going to have fewer people working for the government, fewer civil servants. Um and isn't that a valid argument?
[00:07:19] Linda Lingle: I think what's important is that if you are not allowed to privatize, you will have fewer private sector jobs and you will have a weaker economy in the state of Hawaii. And that's one of the benefits of privatization is it does create jobs. It helps small companies and it does create more employment, give us a better economy.
[00:07:38] Randall Roth: And doesn't it, as a practical matter, if you can contract out with the private sector if they give you a low bid, doesn't that as a practical matter mean that the government union is gone?
[00:07:50] Linda Lingle: Not in any way, Randy. What it means is that if the public wants to continue getting services, that we're going to have to have to find alternatives because we simply cannot afford to go on the way we have. And as you know, the people of Hawaii have been struggling with a very poor economy for the past few years, and one of the chief economists at one of our largest banks said recently that the problems in Hawaii are not cyclical, they are structural. And the point is we cannot continue to operate the way we always have. We have to be willing to get the best service at the lowest possible cost, and sometimes that means privatization but not always.
[00:08:26] Linda Lingle: And I'll give you an example. You know, there was a controversial book buying contract that the State Library System put out. And what this said is that we're going to hire a company in North Carolina to buy books for the people of Hawaii. Well, it may be cheaper to do it that way and I'm not sure that it was, but it's not the most cost, it's not the best service for the people of Hawaii because the best service is a service that means that those of us who go to the library really want to take out those books. So you might end up with cheap books by privatizing, but you're not giving the best service to the people. So privatization is not always the best answer, but it must be a tool available to the government.
[00:09:02] Randall Roth: But if we're talking about a a task that can be done by somebody who's um working for a private company just as well as it could be done by somebody working for the government, let's say somebody cleaning the parks on Maui. Um first of all, why not pay them a a fair wage with uh with good benefits? I think a lot of people see government jobs as being uh non-exploitive jobs. Um tell me what the argument is for saying, no, we want to reduce the amount of money that we pay the individual, you know through its employer now, the private sector, we want to reduce that. Why not allow these non-exploitative, I'm just doing the best I can here, Linda, don't look at me funny. Why not allow these non-exploitative jobs with a fair wage and good benefits? Um don't taxpayers want to support that kind of of opportunity?
[00:09:54] Linda Lingle: All of us want to make sure that the people of Hawaii have good jobs at fair wages that they can have a good life here in Hawaii. And the ability to contract and those people who receive the contracts are having a decent life in Hawaii because of their ability to have that private contract. We have two types of contracts in our parks on Maui, Randy. One is with an organization that provides employment for the developmentally disabled. That is our largest single contract to clean our parks. If we are not able to contract with that organization, that organization will cease to exist as it does today, and the people who are helped by this employment will go on public assistance.
[00:10:33] Linda Lingle: So that contract in particular, which is currently under challenge by the UPW, is one of the most important ones that we are trying to protect and that is not protected under the legislation that was agreed to at the legislature just uh yesterday or the day before.
[00:10:47] Randall Roth: Okay. Now, I want to come back to that in just a moment, but I remember reading the written testimony of I believe it was your director of finance on Maui, and he was estimating that if that particular contract was um, uh cancelled because of this case and if uh civil servants, government workers, members of the the government workers union were given that task, that the cost to the county would more than double. Why is that?
[00:11:15] Linda Lingle: It's because the level of benefits in the government are higher than anywhere in the private sector, whether it's nonprofit or businesses, so that an average business has fringe benefits of maybe 30%. The government has fringe benefits of 60%, and we have discussed and analyzed this issue and we estimate that for any government service to be contracted out, it does save about two to three times the amount of money. One are the benefits, but a second reason is a lot of the nonprofits that we contract with get contributions from the private sector that they would not make to the government. So not only is it more expensive to hire a government worker than a nonprofit organization, but we lose the contributions from the public that we would receive.
[00:11:59] Linda Lingle: So one of two things will happen if we are not allowed to contract with these organizations and private companies, we will either have to cut services or taxes will go up. One of those two things will have to happen because we can't provide the service at the same cost that the private sector can.
[00:12:15] Randall Roth: Okay. Now in just a minute or two we're going to invite calls, but you raised a a moment or two ago something about what's going on in the legislature and just reading the newspaper, I'm under the impression that an agreement has been struck between the the house forces and the Senate forces in the conference committee. It involves a a two-year moratorium of sorts and I can't help but think of a week or two ago when somebody in the Attorney General's office in giving testimony before one of the committees said, a moratorium does nothing. A moratorium doesn't help us a bit. So I'm wondering, where are we right now with respect to the legislative reaction to this Supreme Court opinion?
[00:12:55] Linda Lingle: The moratorium that the legislature has passed out of conference committee is a bad law, Randy, for four specific reasons. It will cause taxes to go up, it will force us to cut services, it never addresses the main issue, and it actually raises a new issue that I'd like to get to in a minute.
[00:13:12] Randall Roth: Okay. And when you say it doesn't really address the issue, is there concern that during this two-year moratorium, while you're continuing to use private sector providers for government services, continuing to contract out as as uh you described it earlier. Is there a concern that someday somebody is going to argue that that's violating the law or is there something else that causes you to say the legislature really hasn't addressed this?
[00:13:36] Linda Lingle: Both of those things, Randy. And let me get the specific ones out first. What this bill does is it does not cover the landfill on Kauai, and that is the only landfill on Kauai, so if this is the law, the legislature passes in its final days, the only landfill on Kauai will be forced to shut down immediately. And that will raise a new issue because they are under federal regulations with the Environmental Protection Agency to provide a certain level of landfill. They don't have the workers in the government to do it. As soon as they shut down, they are going to be in violation of federal law. The second thing it will do, it will cut off mental health services on the Big Island to children and adolescents, and as you know, the state of Hawaii is under a federal court order under the Felix YH decision to provide these services.
[00:14:21] Linda Lingle: But under this bill that the legislature passed, they will have to stop those services immediately and they are specific in this bill. And the third thing it would do, it would stop Maui from providing work opportunities for the developmentally disabled through our parks contract. So there are some very bad outcomes with this bill and it never addresses the issue, it simply puts it off for another day.
[00:14:44] Randall Roth: Well now, I've read in the newspaper in a couple of places that Gary Rodrigues from the uh Public Workers Union, has said uh what you've been describing. Um what you just said here on the radio show and also you've talked in terms of having to cancel a number of of contracts depending upon what the legislature would do. He's described that uh on several occasions as last minute scare tactics. What's your reaction?
[00:15:09] Linda Lingle: It's important to understand, Randy, that I don't get to decide as the mayor whether I want to enforce the law or not. Uh the court has made a ruling, they've said that these contracts are void unless the legislature takes some action. The legislature was not taking action and therefore I would have no choice as would no other mayor have any choice but to end those contracts. So it certainly wasn't something I would like to do. It's something I want to avoid at all costs and that's why we need the legislature to take appropriate action, so we are not forced to cancel contracts.
[00:15:45] Randall Roth: Under the bill that's passed out of the conference committee that both the House and the Senate will vote on tomorrow, I guess, or Tuesday, um would you have to cancel any existing contracts?
[00:15:56] Linda Lingle: Yes, we would probably have to cancel all parks maintenance contracts on Maui, the Big Island would have to cancel its landfill contract, Kauai as well on the landfill. The Big Island on its mental health services, there's a listing of contracts, every contract that's currently being disputed by the UPW is in this list. But then the bill goes even farther, Randy, what it says is, any contract that is either before the court or before an administrative agency is also not covered by this bill. So there are other contracts out there that will also have to be ended if this is the best the legislature can do, but we are not accepting this and the mayors from the neighbor islands will be in Honolulu again tomorrow morning, trying to meet with the House Speaker and the Senate President before they go into caucus at 10:00 tomorrow morning.
[00:16:42] Linda Lingle: To talk with them about why this bill is not the answer and in fact raises even more questions and try to impress upon them that what we are seeking here is to make sure that we can get the public the best services at the lowest possible cost, and this bill will not allow us to do that.
[00:16:59] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. With me in the studio is Maui's Mayor, Linda Crocket Lingle. We're talking about privatization. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. Linda, let's get back to the Supreme Court opinion, this Kono case. And um uh it really ought to be called UPW or Rodrigues but just the accident of how the uh the uh case was titled, we call it the Kono opinion. Um why is it that the Supreme Court did what it did? And and some people knowed a couple weeks ago Joe Gadan, who's uh a retired federal magistrate magistrate, uh said that the Supreme Court had uh had created confusion where there was clarity.
[00:17:52] Randall Roth: In other words, there's been a lot of criticism of of that opinion. Real quickly, why did the court hand this hot potato over to the legislature? Why didn't it go the direction that most states have gone, which is to basically say um, you don't have to have specific legislation specifically exempting it from the civil service in order for services to be privatized?
[00:18:18] Linda Lingle: What made the Kono decision so unusual, Randy, was that the issue that was being argued in court was whether or not the Big Island had violated the collective bargaining section of the law. But what the court said was, oh we're not going to even deal with collective bargaining. In fact, county, you can't even negotiate this with the union even if you want to, because it violates civil service law. So they ruled on an issue that was never raised in the case and that's what was so unusual. It was so overly broad. They didn't stick to the issue of the Big Island landfill. They said not only can you not go negotiate this, it's just a violation of the law. Period.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: and we're going to hand it to the legislature to try to correct.
[00:19:03] Speaker 1: So you're suggesting they use this as an opportunity to do something that they wanted to do as opposed to doing what what they were required to do in this controversy.
[00:19:13] Linda Lingle: No, I'm not suggesting that, but that may have been the result of what they did. Again, the issue that was before the court was collective bargaining and they ruled on civil service. It was very unusual, especially unusual for a court to go beyond what it's asked to do. In most cases, a court will try to narrow their focus or narrow the opinion to get to the specific issue that's before them, and yet in this case, they went beyond what they were asking, ruled on a completely different section of the law.
[00:19:39] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go to some calls. First, Dorothy on Oahu in her car. Good morning, Dorothy. Good morning. I just have a very brief comment and mine is that I totally support Mayor Lingle in all of your efforts to enhance the privatization and the assistance of the otherwise publicly supported or ever dwindling services such as the the rehab services. So I just can't say enough about your efforts, and I'm sorry we've been frustrated in many ways with the legislature's decisions and actions, and this is yet another one with the moratorium. Just to vote of support, and I thank you.
[00:20:17] Linda Lingle: Thank you very much, Dorothy. We're not giving up. We'll be down there tomorrow, and our goal remains the same, and that is the best services for the people of Hawaii at the lowest possible cost.
[00:20:28] Randall Roth: Support you 100%. Thank you. Let's go to Gary, and in parentheses it says Not Rodriguez in Honolulu. Good morning, Gary.
[00:20:35] Speaker 2: Good morning, Randy. My question is yesterday morning in the paper when they had the article about the privatization agreement reach, there was also an article about uh contract settlements being reached with the UPW bargaining units 1 and 10. Wanted to see if there might be any correlation between those two events.
[00:20:58] Linda Lingle: I don't see any direct relationship between the two. The UPW is about the last collective bargaining unit to settle their contract. We've been working on it and it was expected to settle, so I don't see any direct relationship.
[00:21:11] Randall Roth: Anything else, Gary?
[00:21:12] Speaker 2: Nope. Thank you, and keep up the good work. Thanks Gary.
[00:21:15] Randall Roth: Let's go to Susan on Maui. Good morning, Susan.
[00:21:18] Speaker 3: Good morning, Randy.
[00:21:19] Randall Roth: You're on the air.
[00:21:21] Speaker 3: Thank you. Um Linda, I work for the state system the hospital state system on Maui. Don't you think that the UPW and HGEA have held us all back?
[00:21:35] Linda Lingle: I'm not sure what what you mean by held us all back.
[00:21:39] Speaker 3: Well, because there's there's deadwood and dead weight and and there's so many people afraid of being privatized. I've lived here 20 years. I worked in hospitals all over the United States and they are private, and there was never a problem or a worry about our jobs. But now that this is all coming up, everyone's so worried that they're going to lose something or they're not going to have a job.
[00:22:10] Linda Lingle: I see. I think in any organization of any size, you have uh great workers, you have in-between workers, and maybe those who aren't pulling their weight, and I don't think government is any different. In Maui, we have 1800 county workers, I believe we have a great workforce who have a lot of pride, who really work hard for the people of Maui. But if we're going to be able to expand services, we simply cannot afford to hire more government workers. Again, our goal is to provide the best service at the most cost-effective price, and the only way for us to do that today to expand those services is to have the right to contract when it makes sense. It's not always the solution, but it has to be one tool that we have available to us. I think too often government workers are made a scapegoat for poor leadership, lack of good management, but overall, I don't have uh anything but greatest respect for government workers. I think uh they they really do work hard and have a lot of pride.
[00:23:06] Randall Roth: Uh on the other hand, last week, one of our guests was Ed Case, and um after he heard what our topic was going to be this week, he he faxed in a copy of some floor remarks that he made uh just a week or so ago. And one of the points he makes is that uh and I'll just quote him, we must recognize that competition or the threat of competition from the private sector in the provision of certain governmental services can be a tremendous motivator to the preservation of a first class civil service. Um do you agree with that? That that part of the benefit here is that it it has civil servants um less secure in their jobs?
[00:23:41] Linda Lingle: No, I don't think it's a benefit for anyone to be insecure in their job and I've never thought of it in those terms before, Randy. Um again, that's not a goal of ours is to make workers feel insecure because you're not going to get the best services if you have workers who don't feel good about themselves and their job, and in Maui County, the reason I have such great support from the government workers is because we have created a very sound economy, we have a strong fiscal county government, we don't worry about payroll lags or furloughs or those types of things, and I think that's why I continue to be supported by the workers themselves because the best thing I can do for the workers is to make sure our county stays fiscally sound, make sure our economy stays healthy, and one way to do that is to use all the tools that your disposal, and one of those tools is to contract out services.
[00:24:31] Randall Roth: One of the questions I was going to ask you before our hour was up is why the economy seems to be doing better on Maui than elsewhere in the state and and did did you just answer that question or is it a little bit more complicated than that?
[00:24:43] Linda Lingle: I think a lot of it is attitude and I think Maui people have a a very good attitude of working together, we're very interconnected there. Uh we've taken a a very conservative approach to county finances and that's kept us in a very good uh financial position. Also, as you may know, last year Maui was the only county in the state to gain population rather than lose population, and that's because there are private sector jobs being created.
[00:25:07] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Susan.
[00:25:10] Speaker 3: Can I say one more thing?
[00:25:11] Randall Roth: Okay. This is Susan from Maui again.
[00:25:14] Speaker 3: When Dr. Handlin was quoted in the Maui news this past week about the hospital, um for the first time, and I don't know how long, there wasn't one sick call. There is it is scary, people. Uh but I don't see if if the county took the hospital, or if our if a company bought the hospital, I don't see the people who who are so scared are the people that shouldn't be there.
[00:25:47] Linda Lingle: Well, let me explain one situation where I think privatization has to be approached very cautiously, especially because we live in an island 2500 miles away from the next state. We have to be especially careful because we don't want to just replace a public monopoly with a private monopoly, where then we are at the mercy of whatever prices that they want to set for services to the public, and that's why you need to be very careful when moving towards privatization. So if you bring in a private company, you lose all your personnel, your expertise to provide a service and now that private company can set its price anyway it it wants, if there is not a lot of competition in that particular field. So you need to be cautious, you can't take a knee-jerk approach to privatization, it has to be something that a government leader analyzes like they analyze any other problem that you might face.
[00:26:34] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Susan.
[00:26:36] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[00:26:38] Speaker 4: Good morning. Thank you, Mayor. You're doing a wonderful job. Please run for Governor. Uh three things and I'll hang up. One, I wondered why, uh well first of all back to the last question, productivity. I believe the Supreme Court decision referred to 38 public workers being affected. I believe the contractor has about 10 working there. Uh the other is uh why do the counties, if the state will not change the law enabling them to to contract these services, why don't they simply require the State Health Department to run these rubbish dumps? And thirdly, uh and probably most importantly is this decision has given the United Public Workers a monopoly on that service. If they strike, technically the counties or the state, nobody can even contract those services out any longer because they would be violating the law. I'll uh turn my radio up and listen. Thank you.
[00:27:31] Linda Lingle: Well, Stewart, that was an excellent point you made at the end and one that hasn't come out, and that is uh if anyone has a monopoly whether it's private or public, you're in a position of not being able to provide that service. The impact in the community would be tremendous. Your earlier point about the the landfills, I think it's important to point out here that even the State Department of Health testified before the legislative committees that Kauai could not operate a landfill according to current federal and state law unless they continue to have this private contract. So our the head of our Department of Health, the that that that section of the Department of Health that deals with landfills, Dr. Anderson, he went to the legislature and he said, if Kauai is not allowed to continue, they will be violating the law, and yet this bill that the legislature has cast out, will force Kauai to violate the law and that's why the bill needs to be reconsidered and why we need to be successful on Monday with the House Speaker and with the Senate. And I want to make this point Randy, because the State House has been very good on this issue and they've helped us all along. It wasn't until the very end, those few minutes before midnight on the final day, that they conceded and went along with the Senate. I don't know if they were aware of all the implications of the bill. I'm not sure, I need to talk with them, but the House has been very helpful with us all along on this issue until it came to that last day.
[00:28:54] Randall Roth: Okay, and I want to come back to just the politics of this in a moment, but we've got some people who've been waiting patiently so I'm going to go to them first. as a service out for bid. Uh what's to prevent that from becoming totally political where the company that's making the biggest contribution to your campaign son of a gun happens to be the one that you decide has the best mix of low price and high quality, how can we avoid that happening?
[00:38:18] Linda Lingle: That's a great question. And in Hawaii, as you know, we revised our law that tells us how we can buy private services. They call it the procurement code, but what it is really is, it's a law that tells you how you have to go about this, and you have to follow the law. So for instance, if we're going to put out a contract, uh to fix a building, we have to advertise it in a newspaper of general circulation for a set number of days. It has to meet certain requirements within that ad. People have so many days to submit their bids. They have to be written bids, and they have to be opened in a public setting. So there is no possible way that anyone can win that bid that has not gone through that process.
[00:39:00] Randall Roth: You it's true that you could open the bid and say that I think that second bid is more cost effective, even though it's it's more it looks like it's more money, but I think it'll be a better service. You have to prove that and that's open to challenge from the other bidders and again, it's all done in public.
[00:39:16] Linda Lingle: Okay. Well, we have a challenge right on the Big Island on the uh police communications uh operation where the low bidder wasn't awarded the contract.
[00:39:24] Randall Roth: Right. But you know about it. The public knows about it, the press knows about it. So, you're accountable as the politician who's making the decision you're accountable.
[00:39:31] Linda Lingle: Absolutely. And it's all done in public.
[00:39:33] Randall Roth: Bill, I've got to move on. I've got six people. Thank you. Um, I'm looking at uh an article, an Island Voices article that appeared a few weeks ago, the heading is uh Oh, did he did he get off the line? Oh, okay. Well, we had Joe Gadan for a minute there. Joe, if uh if you want to get back on the line, I was going to give you an opportunity to uh uh say a few things about the Island Voices piece that you had written and that I had mentioned just a little bit ago. Um, we have on the line next uh Bud Smiser, who is the uh contributing editor of the Honolulu Star Bulletin. Uh Bud is from here on Oahu. Good morning, Bud.
[00:40:06] Speaker 5: Morning. I'd like to suggest that we turn our eyes south to New Zealand. I was just down there uh on a a 10-day writing trip and I don't pretend to be an expert, but I can tell you that their government was running into troubles in 1984, even worse than ours, but ours are getting that way and they vastly changed things. And among the vast changes, they've made privatization a number one priority and they also passed a law abolishing compulsory unionism in both the private and public sectors. And I just recently saw the head of the Trade Union Council quoted, saying, well, he opposed that, he wouldn't want to go back, he finds it uh that compulsory unions are weak unions. And the the experience in New Zealand is that they have come from being a country in debt to being a country in surplus. That successive governments have been reelected, and uh this last year, labor didn't win, but even it was pledged not to turn back the clock. New Zealand is worth looking at. I'd like to I'd like to promote a trip down there for Mayor Lingle and uh a lot of our other mayors.
[00:41:20] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Bud. Appreciate your comment. Uh let's go to Jack on Maui. Good morning, Jack.
[00:41:26] Speaker 6: Morning, Randy. You're on the air.
[00:41:28] Linda Lingle: Morning Mayor, how are you this morning?
[00:41:29] Speaker 6: Morning, Jack. I think you're doing a wonderful job as mayor. We're going to hate to lose you, and I hope you run for governor.
[00:41:33] Linda Lingle: Thanks a lot, Jack.
[00:41:35] Speaker 6: I always thought you've been very fair and impartial between private sector and the unions and I think it shows with what the administration in Maui probably is the best in the state of Hawaii. My question this morning is, I don't think I heard mentioned why Mr. Rack didn't show up.
[00:41:49] Randall Roth: Um, let me ask that question of uh of Mayor Lingle, why wouldn't Gary Rodrigues and is that who you're referring to, Jack?
[00:41:57] Speaker 6: Gary Rodrigues, okay.
[00:41:58] Randall Roth: The the head of the the UPW, the the main government Workers Union. Why is it that he would turn down the opportunity to write a piece for the newspaper, to be on the radio. Um, I know this is not unusual that he would simply not um not show up, not participate in in a dialogue. Um, I don't know if this is correct or not. If there's anyone from the legislature is listening and this is incorrect, please call in and tell me. Gary, if you're out there and this is incorrect, please call in and tell me. I'm told that what he was doing was going from office to office down at the capital with a large number of of members of his union, basically asking members of the legislature, you know, can we or can we not not count on you? And it was, you know, a very political context as opposed to discussing the merits of of the issue. Um
[00:42:48] Linda Lingle: Well, I think the reason he wouldn't come on, Randy, is he simply on the wrong side of this issue. In fact, the other private labor unions are on the public side in this issue and I don't see it as my side and and Gary Rodriguez side, I see it as the public side and Gary Rodriguez side. And I want to make it very clear that I don't have uh any problem with Gary Rodrigues. In fact, I respect the job he's think he's trying to do for his union members. That's his job. is to do everything he thinks he can to protect his members and protect their jobs. and I admire him for doing that. My gripe is not with Gary Rodrigues. My focus is on the state legislature because their responsibility is not to any particular person or group of people, but to the state of Hawaii and the health of our entire community and that's what I want them to focus on. So I think number one, he's on the wrong side of the issue and number two, Randy, he probably feels he won already because if you look at this law that came out of conference, he doesn't have any reason to come on and try to make a case anymore. He's he's won the case to a large degree.
[00:43:52] Randall Roth: So you're suggesting and I'm restating this because Gary, if you're listening and you disagree, please call in. You're suggesting that he doesn't want to engage in dialogue because there just isn't merit to his side. His side is this helps my members and my members have a lot of of votes, a lot of political power and the legislature you better go with something that supports my members or we're going to vote against you. You're suggesting that he's not here because he doesn't have anything more than that to say?
[00:44:19] Linda Lingle: I don't think he has anything more to gain because he's already won through this bill. He has gotten the legislature to say that Kauai can no longer contract for that landfill, the Big Island can no longer contract, the mental health services have to stop. So he's gotten the things that he wanted already.
[00:44:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Gary, again, 955-8821, we really do want to hear from you. Um Ernest from Kauai, you're next. Good morning, Ernest.
[00:44:44] Speaker 7: Hi uh, good morning uh mayor. Um, I appreciate your your time on the radio today. It's been very appropriate since the legislature is about to close. Uh my question is on this bill that came out HB 1798 SD1, CD1. Uh Mayor, do you think there's any chance that the legislature might extend and put this back to conference committee or back for discussion?
[00:45:06] Randall Roth: And Linda so that so that I understand the context of the question, is it do they have to extend in order to come up with something other than this bill that you've described as as greatly flawed and that Ernest described by number, uh do they have to extend in order to come up with something that you'd be happy with?
[00:45:23] Linda Lingle: I'm not positive about that, Randy. Maybe one of the legislators could call in and let us know exactly what their process is, but we do think there's time to reconsider this, to go back to conference and to we think the best bill overall, Randy, was the house bill that was called House Bill 1472. It was the bill the house was moving forward all along until the very end and that bill would have addressed the issues we were concerned about. And the most important point for your listeners to remember is that what we were seeking here was to go back the way things had always been done for decades in Hawaii. We weren't seeking anything new, no expanded authority for the government against workers or anything like that. We just wanted to go back to the way things were, and that's what we're still seeking.
[00:46:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Ernest, thank you for your call.
[00:46:10] Speaker 7: Uh uh, can I ask add one more thing there? Okay. You know I Mayor, I've read the uh the House uh bill version that came out, uh 1798. And to me it seems like it actually expands and put us into a worse situation than. Would you agree with that?
[00:46:26] Linda Lingle: I I'm not that familiar with the 1798 that you referred to. That is the uh bill that came out of uh committee on Friday night.
[00:46:34] Randall Roth: Oh, that was the final version. Well, when things were happening that late at night, I haven't had a chance to read them all, Ernest, but I appreciate you following this matter so closely and we are going to be in Honolulu tomorrow morning, Mayor Kosaka, Mayor Yamashiro and myself to talk with both sides about this. And if I understand correctly Linda, you were saying, even if it doesn't make matters worse, it doesn't come close to addressing the the situation.
[00:46:57] Linda Lingle: That's correct. The bill that came out of conference is not a good law.
[00:47:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Ernest. Um, a little bit ago, I started to describe this Island Voices piece by Joe Gadan, the headline is Privatization Ruling is Wrong. Joe, I believe we've got you on the line now?
[00:47:11] Speaker 8: Yes, you do.
[00:47:12] Randall Roth: Uh, what do you have to say?
[00:47:13] Speaker 8: Well, there's a there's another reason why the decision is really kind of very strange. Is that um the decision came out because the uh United because the um because the county made a motion for summary judgment, they went to the judge and said, look, there's no need to have a trial on this case, you know, rule in our favor because uh we should win, and what the court said the court said, no, no, we can't do that. But then the court took it upon itself to rule in favor of the uh uh the UPW, when the UPW didn't even ask for that type of relief. So, the court seemed to go out of its way to kind of sabotage privatization.
[00:47:54] Randall Roth: Joe, as a as a retired federal judge, would you describe that as judicial activism?
[00:47:59] Speaker 8: Oh, that is is it it is is, you know, it's very it really is. The job of the legislature, really the job of the Supreme Court is to interpret and to apply the laws. Uh, and uh the the I mean, everyone who really studies law knows that the the the the the the Supreme Court should find a way to make a law work rather than find a way to overturn it. And this was a very peculiar decision. I've discussed this with many other lawyers in town that uh um that studied the Supreme Court and we're all just baffled by this case because the law says, you know, any other law to the contrary notwithstanding no, you know, the the the privatization can take place and the Supreme Court just ignored that language and they said they had to have some magic words in there.
[00:48:50] Randall Roth: Joe, I want to avoid getting into the detail that only the the lawyers are going to uh understand and enjoy. Uh, but I really do appreciate uh you sharing your thoughts this morning.
[00:48:59] Speaker 8: Yeah.
[00:49:00] Randall Roth: Thank you, sir. We go to Luanne on Maui. Good morning, Luanne.
[00:49:04] Speaker 9: Good morning, Randy. Good morning, Mayor Lingle.
[00:49:06] Linda Lingle: Good morning Luanne.
[00:49:07] Speaker 9: I would like a little clarification. I've worked in the non-profit world on Maui for the last 12, 13 years and I'm wondering does this ruling affect or will it down the line affect if it stays in, all the RFPs that the county gives out, such as to Women Helping Women or Maui family support services? And will it affect those contracts that the county has for services such as the ones they have with Holly Mahalu, to to run the the housing project? That the question or the clarification I'd like.
[00:50:05] Linda Lingle: Okay. Luanne, thank you for your call.
[00:50:12] Speaker 9: You're welcome.
[00:50:13] Randall Roth: We go to David in uh Wapahu. Good morning, David.
[00:50:16] Speaker 10: Uh good morning. Mayor, you've done an absolutely wonderful job as mayor of a Maui and again, congratulations on being the new home of A hula bowl.
[00:50:22] Linda Lingle: Thank you, David.
[00:50:23] Randall Roth: Yeah, you know David, I'm going to let you finish but folks out there if there is anyone who thinks the mayor isn't doing a great job, please call. Uh, we we really want to hear from everybody. Linda, I'm I'm shocked by how supportive the callers have been thus far. David, continue.
[00:50:37] Speaker 10: Thank you very much. Um, I think it's important mayor to recognize that Mr. Rodrigues does not speak for all the unions in Hawaii and I was hoping that you might be able to comment on if this is accurate.
[00:50:45] Linda Lingle: Well, that is correct. In fact, the local five hotel workers union adopted a resolution uh supporting the original house bill that the mayors had been supporting uh as well as the carpenters union also came out in support of our position because there are many unionized workers who are doing work for the government as a part of their employment with private companies and we think those contracts ought to be able to continue and those workers should not lose their job just because they're private sector union workers and not government union workers. We don't think it's fair to tell a worker who belongs to a union because you're a a private company, you're going to lose your job so we have to go hire another government worker to replace you. That's simply not right.
[00:51:27] Randall Roth: David, thank you for your call. You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. I'm here with Maui's Mayor Linda Crockett Lingle. The topic is privatization. Uh next on the line, we have Representative Galen Fox from Honolulu. Good morning, Galen.
[00:51:43] Speaker 11: Hi, good morning Randy. Good morning, Mayor Lingle.
[00:51:45] Linda Lingle: Good morning Galen.
[00:51:46] Randall Roth: And and I guess just so everybody knows Galen this is your your first term in the legislature, uh you are I believe an economist by training and worked for Dbed for a long time. Um, any other background to provide before you tell us what you have on your mind?
[00:52:01] Speaker 11: Well, I phoned in because uh you asked the question about, you know, what can be done in the last few days of the legislature, and you correctly pointed out that uh this is my first term. So, I've never been through a legislative closing before, but as I understand it um, you know, there's still is time to deal with very major issues and uh including no fault, as long as agreement is reached by Tuesday midnight. If they do it on no fault, I think that privatization might also be able to be dealt with. They would simply reach an agreement by midnight Tuesday extend the legislature two days so that the uh the bill could be voted on in final form two days later.
[00:52:38] Randall Roth: Galen, if if any of our listeners feel strongly one way or the other on this issue, how could they best uh be heard? Should they call their their own representative, should they send a fax, should they call some organization? How can they best express themselves so that people like you in the legislature, who among other things are trying to listen to what the people are are saying. Uh, how can they do it most effectively?
[00:53:04] Speaker 11: All legislators uh welcome uh direct contact um with the people. So uh approaching your own legislator is fine, but I agree with uh Mayor Lingle that at this point uh the critical decision point is in the House and the uh the idea would be to try to get the House to stick with the original bill that uh that it amended as it came over from the Senate, Senate Bill 1472. It could be the Senate version, but uh the Senate number but you want the House version and the message should go to the house leadership stick to your guns.
[00:53:36] Randall Roth: Stick to your guns on the house side. Who on the Senate side is um uh the roadblock if you will to to what what I guess Mayor Linda Lingle is supporting and that is um, you know, an authorization to continue to uh uh contract out with the private sector. Who in the Senate is saying, nope, we want everything provided through government unions?
[00:53:58] Speaker 11: Now, my understanding is that the Senate is uh pretty evenly divided between those who uh would like to preserve the status quo, which is what Mayor Lingle is arguing for and those who figure that um that we might try a little bit with what Gary Rodrigues has been trying to achieve through the courts. Okay, and status quo, that that was Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah. Um, Galen before you you hang up Linda, is there anything you'd like to uh ask of Galen or say to Galen? Uh here we've got a direct line for a little bit of lobbying.
[00:54:36] Linda Lingle: No, but I will see him on Monday down at the legislature along with as many others as I can and I appreciate him calling in and making clear that there is time to correct this issue and to get us back to where we were and to keep us on track with trying to get Hawaii's economy back online.
[00:54:54] Randall Roth: Galen, you know, we we criticize members of the legislature a lot. I just want to thank you for uh for running for office and putting in the time and energy and I know in many cases it's a thankless sort of job. I don't know what position you've taken on any of these bills, but as a citizen, I just want to thank you for uh for rolling up your sleeves and trying to make a difference.
[00:55:12] Speaker 11: Well, thank you, Randy, for the difference you make by bringing issues uh, you know, in a position where they can be discussed intelligently and thank you, Mayor Lingle for your uh your wonderful remarks this morning.
[00:55:23] Randall Roth: Thank you for calling in, Galen. We go to Kevin in Macau. Good morning, Kevin.
[00:55:27] Speaker 12: Good morning. Uh Mayor Lingle and Randy. Uh two quick points I want to make. The fringe benefit rate for government workers is nowhere near 60% as was mentioned earlier in the program. And the other point is, I am not aware of any challenge to the contract to provide mental health services on the uh Big Island.
[00:55:48] Linda Lingle: Randy, let me address both of those points. The first one about the fringe benefit rate. Not only do you count the health and welfare benefits as well as the retirement system benefits, but also government workers get 21 days of vacation, 21 days of sick leave, 14 paid holidays and when we talked about the cost, the 60% cost, we were including all of those things. So what that means is that for the public to hire one government worker, it does require us to pay their salary plus an additional 60% in costs to the people. Now, I'm looking at the bill as it relates to the things that will not be covered under the moratorium that the legislature is suggesting. And it's it's item number 10 and it says the child and adolescent mental health services on the island of Hawaii by the state to various private contractors. So it's clear that that would no longer be allowed on the Big Island if this bill passes.
[00:56:44] Randall Roth: Kevin?
[00:56:45] Speaker 12: Well, I maybe I stand corrected on some of it. I just was not aware that there had been a legal challenge to that service being provided.
[00:56:53] Linda Lingle: I'm not sure you you may be right. I'm not sure there was a legal challenge, but it is one of the specific items in the bill, but it is one of the specific items in the bill.
[00:57:00] Randall Roth: that is going to have to be discontinued.
[00:57:02] Speaker 13: Well, in fact, the point of the Kono opinion as I understand it, is that everything is out unless there's a specific statute that uses this the magic words of exempted from civil service and so I think even if there hasn't been a specific controversy, it was in trouble as a result of this Kono opinion.
[00:57:17] Linda Lingle: Well, yes, it was in trouble, but the bill the legislature is adopting here is trying to deal with that issue by saying, well, that's okay, we're going to deal with Kono by saying we'll have a moratorium and allow these contracts to continue except certain contracts. And then they list out the specific contracts and then they add in any contract that's being challenged in court or any any contract that displaces workers. So for instance on on the island of Maui, we're trying to privatize uh curbside recycling. We want to have curbside recycling for the county of Maui and I have 41 refuse workers who I would have to move to other county positions, which we've held open for them, which they're qualified for, they wouldn't lose benefits, they wouldn't lose salary. But under this bill, it says I can't displace them.
[00:58:02] Randall Roth: Now I understand why the state uh AG's office has set a moratorium does nothing. Let's go to Lisa in Puna. Good morning, Lisa.
[00:58:09] Speaker 14: Good morning uh Randy and good mor- uh good morning Maralingle.
[00:58:12] Randall Roth: Good morning, Lisa.
[00:58:13] Speaker 14: I just have a quick question and I'm very sorry that um Mr. Rodriguez isn't there. Um so I'll I'll uh pose the question and it appears that from reading the paper and I may be wrong that he wants the right to scrutinize each contract as it comes up and I'm wondering does such an authority exist?
[00:58:31] Linda Lingle: That was one of his original proposals and the Senate did accept that from him for consideration and it did not uh pass out. But yes, he did want to have every contract be allowed to go to arbitration, and prior to even proposing that bill, he said, well, let's not really deal with it in the law, let me just look at all your contracts from all the counties in the state and I'll decide which one is okay and which one isn't. In fact, he wrote a letter to every county in state department, if you remember, telling us, give me a list of all your contracts, so I can begin to look at them and decide which one is okay. Well, the point here is, whether it's him or anyone else, he doesn't get to decide what's okay. The court has made a ruling.
[00:59:11] Randall Roth: Well, well, that's good that that was overruled. I found that very disturbing. So, thank you, you're doing a great job.
[00:59:17] Linda Lingle: Thank you, Lisa.
[00:59:27] Speaker 15: Morning Randy and Linda. It occurs to me that the city and county of Honolulu has as much at stake here as anybody else. Two questions: Why have we not heard from Mayor Harris, and two, what is his position?
[00:59:41] Linda Lingle: I can't answer why we haven't heard more from Mayor Harris.
[00:59:44] Randall Roth: And this is related to my next question by the way. But go ahead and finish answering Dick's question.
[00:59:48] Linda Lingle: I'm not sure why Dick. Uh but he takes the same position that the other mayors do, that privatization should be allowed. I don't Every time that we've talked about it or that he's made a comment on it, although he has not been uh very aggressive about his comments, uh he has said that he favors government having the right to privatize government services.
[01:00:11] Randall Roth: Is he going to be with you tomorrow when you're talking with the legislature?
[01:00:15] Linda Lingle: I would doubt that he would be there, but he might be. He has been at one of the hearings that we've all been at.
[01:00:21] Randall Roth: Dick, thanks for your call. We're just about out of time. I've got to move on. Linda, last question, a lot of people have talked about you as a candidate for governor. Some people are saying the role you've assumed on this issue is showboating. That you're out there in in front, uh, because this is an issue that uh that you think the people are are ready to to rally around you on and um and that if Mayor Harris, for example, decides to run for governor um uh next year or if Kay Tano is running for reelection, uh that somehow or another, this is being done with political motives. That it's going to help you in your campaign for governor. One, interested in running, and number two, what do you think about this accusation that it's showboating?
[01:01:05] Linda Lingle: Well, Randy, I certainly hope that the people of Hawaii see this as a matter of leadership, as whether or not an elected person is willing to step forward and protect the overall quality of life here in the state of Hawaii. You know, I believe Hawaii is the greatest place in the world, but everyone knows our economy is in deep trouble. We need to be creative and we need to have leadership that's strong enough to stand up when it's time to stand up. And yes, I am looking very seriously at running for governor and I appreciate all the supportive calls that we got this morning.
[01:01:34] Randall Roth: Okay. And if people don't like what they're hearing about what's going on in the legislature, call or fax your legislator, let them know how you feel one way or the other. Well, I want to thank our guest, Maui's mayor, Linda Crockett Lingle. Linda, this has been uh an hour that went very quickly. I appreciate your coming in this morning and talking to us. legislature. Call or fax your legislator. Let them know how you feel one way or the other. Well, I want to thank our guest, Maui's mayor, Linda Crockett-Lingle. Linda, this has been an hour that went very quickly. I appreciate your coming in this morning and talking to us.
[01:01:53] Linda Lingle: Well, thank you, Randy. I enjoyed it very much. I've been on with you before, but never in the studio. It was a nice experience. Thank you.
[01:01:58] Randall Roth: First time we've actually met. Uh, the producer of The Price of Paradise Radio Show is Suzy Roth, the Director of Operations, Jeff Ilardi. Our technician this morning was Ryan Kampuspos. You've been listening to The Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha. The producer of the Price of Paradise Radio Show is Suzy Roth, the director of operations Jeff Eilardi, our technician this morning was Ryan Campuzpo. You've been listening to The Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.