Legalize Prostitution?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-01-28
Guests: Pam Vessels (outreach worker, Waikiki Health Center; Rev.); Kenneth Tano (Captain, HPD Vice Division); Tracy Ryan (spokesperson, HOPE); Mary Jane McMurdo (State Representative)
Duration: 01:04:26

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: This is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning on KHPR 88.1 and KKUA 90.7, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8 on KIFO, that's 1380 AM. The goal of each of our programs is lively and informed dialogue. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation. Today's topic is a question, should we legalize prostitution? If you haven't seen your morning advertiser, take a look at the focus section on page B3. You'll see a couple of articles written by two of our guests, one is Tracy Ryan, the other Pam Vessels. In their articles, they are describing their positions so far as our topic today is concerned.

[00:00:45] Randall Roth: Well, in addition to Tracy and Pam, with me in the studio is Captain Kenneth Tano from the Honolulu Police Department, and then we have representative Mary Jane McMurdo on the phone. I want to tell you just a little bit about each of them and then we're going to get into our conversation. First of all, Kenneth Tano has been with the Honolulu Police Department for 28 years. Currently he's a captain in the Vice Division. That's the division that deals with drugs, gambling, and prostitution, and before that he was captain of the Waikiki Patrol Division.

[00:01:16] Randall Roth: Tracy Ryan is a spokesperson for Hawaii Opposes Prostitution Enforcement. That stand that boils down to hope, H O P E. She has lived in Hawaii 21 years, is a libertarian, and tells me that her primary interest in the topic of prostitution derives from her interest in civil liberties. She works in the areas of real estate and accounting.

[00:01:39] Randall Roth: Reverend Pam Vessels is an ordained minister who is a community health outreach worker for the Waikiki Health Center and executive director for an organization called Holly Hohokana Nahine. She has worked in the sex industry since the winter of 1988. Now that this is what she's telling me, and she can explain this a little bit more in a minute, but before that was giving her services away. Pam, I can hardly wait to hear your explanation of that. And then finally, we have representative Mary Jane McMurdo, who I believe, her district includes Waikiki and as everyone knows, Waikiki has been the center of attention with respect to this topic of prostitution.

[00:02:20] Randall Roth: Well, why don't we start, Ken, if you could tell us very briefly just from the police department's perspective, what is the law and why does it seem to be, um, unenforced, or, um, at least there seems to be a concern about the enforcement of the law right now?

[00:02:37] Kenneth Tano: Well, Randy, although it appears that it's not going to be, um, it's not being enforced, on an average we execute about between 400 and 500 arrests every year. However, presently there's really no consequence to that arrest and that is really based on, uh, one of the mayor's major complaints, and that is, uh, there's no space.

[00:02:58] Randall Roth: And so I suppose that has a couple of effects. One is that people that you actually do arrest end up back on the streets very quickly, and I suppose your folks, um, don't put as much time and energy into making those arrests if they figure that it's not going to accomplish anything.

[00:03:15] Kenneth Tano: Well, there's no consequence to the crime right now. Uh, a lot of the prostitutes look at, uh, paying a fine as just the cost of doing business.

[00:03:24] Randall Roth: And, and that's what it is, is a fine as opposed to incarceration.

[00:03:27] Kenneth Tano: Correct.

[00:03:28] Randall Roth: Now, we have so called John laws, don't we? Here in Hawaii? Yes we do. Uh, of the people who get arrested, uh, what percentage are the people who are receiving the money, and I assume most of those are women, and what percentage are the people who are paying the money, and I assume most of those are, are men.

[00:03:45] Kenneth Tano: Well, likewise with both the Johns and the prostitutes, uh, although there's, uh, it really comes under the same law of prostitution, whether you're a John or whether you're a prostitute. And, in both cases, nobody goes to jail.

[00:03:59] Randall Roth: But, but do the men get arrested, um, a significant percentage of the time or, or is it primarily, uh, the woman who ends up being arrested? Most of the arrests are the prostitutes.

[00:04:09] Kenneth Tano: Um, we do go out and do what we call reverse operations, where we have to have police officers, women police officers pose as prostitutes, and that, that becomes very difficult.

[00:04:20] Randall Roth: So you're trying hard to enforce it, uh, in, in both directions, both the person receiving the money and the person paying the money.

[00:04:26] Kenneth Tano: Yes we do.

[00:04:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Well let's go to Mary Jane McMurdo on the telephone. Mary Jane, are you there?

[00:04:31] Mary Jane McMurdo: Yep, I am.

[00:04:32] Randall Roth: Um, good morning and I really appreciate your joining us. I know you've got a prior commitment, uh, in about a half hour that you've got to leave us for. Right. But if you could first of all right now, very briefly explain what it is that you've introduced in the legisl- in the legislature and why, and then later on in the show before you have to leave, I'll go back to you and get your comments on everything that you're hearing from the other guests.

[00:04:54] Mary Jane McMurdo: Okay, very quickly. Let me tell you why first. Uh, you know, as, Captain Tano said, the mayor has wanted more minimum security beds, and one of his big reasons for this is specifically to put prostitutes in jail. The problem with that is, we're not even sure we're going to be able to find money for the minimum beds, although I have a bill in for minimum security. 300 of those plus the drug program at Waiawa. Um, but even so, who do we put in jail first? Hardened criminals or prostitutes?

[00:05:30] Mary Jane McMurdo: And there in lies the rub. It with a minimum amount of space, it seems to me we need to take the people who do the harm and put them in prison first. Second thing is, Waikiki tourism people want the, uh, prostitutes off the streets. They want to get rid of this, uh, all of these prostitutes running around. You know, they're very, um, uh, aggressive now. They'll, they'll go up to somebody, even if they have their wives and their children with them. And so they feel this gives, uh, Waikiki a bad name. Okay, then we had a law for to, uh, put them in jail for six months if they practiced in Waikiki.

[00:06:15] Mary Jane McMurdo: Well, in, in essence, this begins to look as if you're trying to regulate. Saying, you're practicing Waikiki, we put you in jail. You practice down on Hotel Street, it's okay.

[00:06:26] Randall Roth: Mary Jane, if, if your bill to legalize prostitution were passed, wouldn't government actually start regulating it?

[00:06:34] Mary Jane McMurdo: That's right. You cannot regulate something really unless it is legal. Now, going on the Nevada laws, which are the biggest ones we have to go for because it's the only state in which it is legal, the advantages of legalizing are that you check for health. They get tested every week. And there's never been a case of AIDS come out of a brothel. Never. Also, the incidence of rape in, in Nevada is very low, in the counties where prostitution is legal.

[00:07:07] Mary Jane McMurdo: We also could regulate where, uh, this is legal, what hours, uh, and we also in Nevada, if somebody a pimp, will give is illegal and can be automatically sent to jail for a year with a $20,000 fine, which isn't peanuts. A prostitute who gets caught practicing prostitution when she knows she has HIV, you know when she's positive, that also is a mandatory jail sentence and a fine. Okay, Mary Jane, let one more thing. Okay. We also would we need money in this state. We are passing up a tremendous amount of money from licensing and taxing of prostitutes, which we no longer, we cannot do.

[00:08:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Mary Jane, uh, stay on the line and I know you have to leave in about 20 minutes, but before that time I'll come back to you and get your thoughts on what you're hearing from our other guests. Okay fine. Thank you. You bet. Let's go to Tracy Ryan. Tracy, as I mentioned at the top of the hour, is spokesperson for an organization called HOPE, H O P E, which stands for Hawaii Opposes Prostitution Enforcement. And if you haven't seen the newspaper this morning, Tracy has an article in it where she lays out her position in a little bit more detail, but Tracy, very briefly, what are your thoughts on the legalization of prostitution?

[00:08:33] Tracy Ryan: Uh, well, basically what we're trying to do is as it said in the enforcement of the criminal law, um, we have no specific position as to whether brothels would be good, bad or otherwise. Um, what we're trying to do is get away from the government's position which says that the government has some power to regulate the sexual conduct of consenting adults.

[00:08:54] Tracy Ryan: We don't think that the government has that power or should have that power. We see that these sex acts which are involved in prostitution are otherwise a perfectly legal event. Um, there's no law in this state against fornication or adultery. Um, or a number of other um things which they can charge them in regards to illicit sex. So that the only thing which they're stating is illegal is the right for these women to engage in a legal a legal activity for their support and their financial needs, which we think they cannot do. So we're looking at it basically from a standpoint of civil rights and civil liberties.

[00:09:28] Tracy Ryan: Um, looking at the utility that's exists in the law, we don't see the law as having any utility. We don't see that the law, um, prevents people from complaining about prostitutes in their area for various reasons, some of which the police officer explained earlier and others which will get into later. We don't see it as helpful in disease control. We don't see it in protecting the prostitutes from many abuses which can come their way. We don't see the law as having any benefit to anyone. And we don't see it as being popular either. And you think that if prostitution were legal and then regulated that a number of the current problems would, would go away?

[00:10:04] Tracy Ryan: They could be dealt with.

[00:10:06] Randall Roth: That's okay.

[00:10:08] Tracy Ryan: I think um, if it were legal, then some of the problems could be addressed.

[00:10:13] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go to, um, Pam Vessels and, and Pam, I should ask you first about my introduction, that you've been working in the sex industry since the winter of 88. Before that you were giving your services away. Maybe you should explain to our listeners just what it is that you've been doing with yourself for the last 10 years or so.

[00:10:29] Pam Vessels: I've been working hard. Okay. Just like anybody else in the sex industry does. Uh, I started out working as a volunteer, uh, downtown on Hotel Street, doing HIV and STD education, and from that came a grant that, uh, continues to function today, from the Center for Disease Control to do HIV and STD education with prostitutes at night in Waikiki, for the Waikiki Health Center.

[00:10:55] Randall Roth: So you work directly with the prostitutes. You know them very, very well.

[00:10:59] Pam Vessels: I know many prostitutes, yes.

[00:11:02] Randall Roth: Uh, what's your position on the legalization of prostitution?

[00:11:05] Pam Vessels: I'm against the legalization of prostitution. I really believe that prostitution is violence against women and children and that from that standpoint alone, it should not be legalized. It is a it's it's not just a job.

[00:11:25] Randall Roth: Mhm. You know, you know, as I read your article in the newspaper, um, decriminalization is the term used to describe your position where you're saying, um, the people who work in the industry are are victims. Yes. And and they shouldn't be further victimized by being fined and and put in jail. So you're saying, don't make what they do a crime.

[00:11:47] Pam Vessels: I think that's true because from my observation, um, and I can just give you one example of a wonderful woman named Kim, who worked as a prostitute here in this state for, uh, about 20 years. She was arrested 94 times, convicted 54 times and served over seven years in prison over petty misdemeanor crimes. Mhm. And, um, all of these incarcerations, uh, none of them were beneficial for her. They kept her off the street a little while and then she was back. And, um, and now that she's out of that life and in college, it's been really difficult to go back and repair a lot of that damage that has happened to her.

[00:12:30] Randall Roth: What I don't understand about decriminalization is that as I think your position is you you take away the consequences to the prostitutes, um, but you don't sanction it by regulating it. Right. Wouldn't you tend to have just as much, if not more, prostitution once you decriminalized it? And you without regulation, you wouldn't really have the ability to to go in and and address some of the current problems with it.

[00:12:59] Pam Vessels: Well, I think that the the way that, uh, the bill that's been written, from what I've read, the way it's going to address those issues are really, uh, not appropriate. I think they still are things that are going to stigmatize the prostitute. You see, I agree with with Tracy to a certain extent. I think that whatever sexual activity that two consenting adults agree to participate in whether or not barter is involved or not is none of my business or the state's business. I think that if the state decides to legalize prostitution and then regulate it, then in essence the state becomes a pimp.

[00:13:37] Pam Vessels: Mhm. And there is um, a saying on the street that whole money is no money. And I think that the state would find that all of the problems that would be created by legalizing prostitution would in essence negate the money that was raised. And I also think that this bill, as it's written, is really prejudicial against the women involved in prostitution, whether they're working on the street or in a brothel.

[00:14:04] Randall Roth: So your basic position is the state should get completely out of it. Totally out of the sex business, yeah. Okay. Um, Tracy, you started coughing a little bit ago and we gave you a break. Uh, do you want to finish your, your thoughts?

[00:14:16] Tracy Ryan: Um, okay. In regards to, um, I'll start with the last set of comments. Um, the only thing I'd like to add to to Pam's comment and to the other comments in is that what controls the amount of prostitution and when and where it's going to exist is what the demand side in the in the of the equation is.

[00:14:36] Tracy Ryan: Um, there's never been a society in the history of the world that's been able to figure out a way to stop men's demand for prostitutes. And what we're seeing now is prostitute is occurring in areas and at an at an amount which is concurrent with the amount of demand. When demand goes up, there's more girls. When it goes down, there're fewer girls. That's why there's actually fewer girls working as street walkers in Waikiki now than there were four or five years ago. There was more tourism there, there was more demand, there were more girls. The effect of the law on the overall you on the overall picture of prostitution doesn't really get at that. I would also like to comment on the fact that the police officers are saying, well, there's no deterrent because no one's going to jail. I think Pam pointed out that she knows someone personally who spent over seven years in a 20-year period in jail.

[00:15:21] Tracy Ryan: I know a lot of prostitutes too and I know most of them have been have been sent to jail. I know have one friend who's gone to jail six times. Um, it doesn't stop them from being being prostitutes. All it does is interfere with what I feel is interfering with their civil rights. And in terms of enforcing the John law, he was correct in saying that the law is the same for men and women. So the statistics which are kept at the police department only show male and females because it's the same law. I don't think we've ever had a John go to prison in the history of the state of Hawaii.

[00:15:50] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We call it pop radio. Our topic today is a question, should prostitution be legalized? If you would like to catch the show in its entirety tonight on KIFO 1380, you can do just that at 8:00. Now, if you want to ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 955-8821. We're especially interested in hearing from first time callers. Our number is 955-8821. Pam, I think you had something you want to say.

[00:16:22] Pam Vessels: I'd like to talk a little bit about the reality of brothels in the counties in Nevada where they are legal. The people that I know who have worked in those brothels have brought back stories to me that are not what I hear the law enforcement talking about. First of all, in many brothels, it's impossible to just walk up to the door and say, my name is Mary Smith and I want to work in your establishment. In many brothels, you have to have a referral. And that referral comes from a pimp. So so it hasn't gotten rid of the pimps? Oh no, that's a joke.

[00:16:57] Pam Vessels: Pimps are a psychological phenomena and that's not going to go away if we legalize prostitution. In I know many pimps who work in Las Vegas who have women working in brothels. Um, also when a woman goes to work in a brothel, she presents herself at the door and she's not allowed to take anything inside that establishment with her, even a toothbrush. When she goes in, she has to purchase from the company store her toiletries, she has to rent the towels. She is unable to say no to a client.

[00:17:31] Randall Roth: You're describing a form of involuntary, well, and not involuntary but servitude. Servitude really because she has to buy her food. She has to buy all of her toiletries there. She has to rent the tools of her trade there, things that she's going to use which might be towels or other things. And so she's really at the mercy of these people. She can't say no to a trick, and she works usually 24 hours on and a few hours off.

[00:17:54] Randall Roth: And from that, and what you wrote in the advertiser this morning, uh, I think one of your points is that legalization would put at least some of this out of sight, but it's not the sort of thing that society ought to allow to happen whether it's in full view or not.

[00:18:09] Tracy Ryan: That's true. You know, I have a great deal of love and respect for the women and men and transgender individuals that I know who work in the sex industry. It it's a hard job and, um, the survival skills that they have are so admirable. But at the same time, I see the violence that takes place every day. I see the isolation that these people suffer because of their trade and the stigma that's placed on them. And I think that creating a a legalized entity such as a brothel is not going to do anything for that. And I think in our state, what it's going to do is create a sex ghetto. Okay. Well let's, we've got some uh calls coming in. Let's take a few of them and uh then I want to hear some more from Captain Tano and from uh representative Mary Jane McMurdo. Let's go first to Al in IA. Good morning Al.

[00:19:00] Speaker 1: tion envision including gay prostitution?

[00:19:07] Kenneth Tano: Well, I guess uh that would depend. Um the legislation that's been introduced I guess wouldn't distinguish one heterosexual from homosexual.

[00:19:17] Speaker 1: It would only be correct if we were to legalize prostitution. We'd have to legalize all forms of prostitution.

[00:19:24] Kenneth Tano: Okay. Al, did you have another question?

[00:19:26] Speaker 1: No.

[00:19:26] Kenneth Tano: Thank you very much. Our next call is Anne from downtown. Good morning, Anne.

[00:19:30] Anne: Yeah, good morning. I was just going to ask you about the pimps and you happen to start talking about it while I was holding on the radio. Why can't the pimps be targeted because the pimps are in fact enslaving these women and we know, I think the police know pretty much who the pimps are and so do some of us local people who see them down on Hotel street. And if they do legalize prostitution, I think these Hotel street type prostitutes are the pretty low-end bunch.

[00:19:56] Kenneth Tano: They're not the Waka Kiki class prostitutes, if you get my drift. Yeah, and that's a great question, and and Ken Tanno from from Vice. Um I know a few months ago there was a pimp who was sentenced by Federal District court judge Ezra uh to 13 and a half years, a a relatively harsh sentence. Everybody that I know was celebrating that. They thought that was wonderful. Why wouldn't the police crack down harder on on the pimps? Well, in fact, we're working on a bill right now that would uh help us to address this problem with the pimps.

[00:20:27] Kenneth Tano: Previously, the law stated that you needed all these corroborating evidence to convict a pimp. In fact, uh the uncorroborated testimony of one prostitute would not be sufficient, where a prostitute was saying, 'Hey, this guy was uh running my life. I was giving him money.' That that wasn't admissible in court. So, it it has been a it is a difficult process to to target the pimps, but we have just in this last uh year in 1995, we were successful in two cases. So even if you know who the pimp is, there's a big difference between that and being able to arrest them. To arrest and getting that corroborating evidence.

[00:21:05] Kenneth Tano: Okay. And thank you for your call. Um Mary Jane McMurdo is the representative who has introduced legislation to legalize uh prostitution. And Mary Jane, you're still on the phone?

[00:21:16] Mary Jane McMurdo: Right.

[00:21:17] Kenneth Tano: I know you have to take off to a prior commitment. Any thoughts on what you've been listening to?

[00:21:21] Mary Jane McMurdo: Uh yes, one thing, uh the bill that Captain Tanno is talking about was heard, uh I think it was Friday, by the House Judiciary Committee and we did pass it out, it is a very good bill.

[00:21:35] Kenneth Tano: And that's the one that would give the police department Noncorroborating evidence of um on a pimp.

[00:21:39] Mary Jane McMurdo: So that'd be up to be able to go after the pimp easier than they can now. Okay, so I think that probably has a very good chance of passing the legislature. Second of all, I neglected to say one thing about this legislation would only it would be patterned after the Nevada and with some some changes. But mainly, it's an enabling legislation. In other words, what it would say is if the counties that want to legalize prostitution, uh they have the right to do so with certain parameters. For one thing, the testing would be absolutely mandatory for every seven days and that kind of thing.

[00:22:24] Mary Jane McMurdo: Uh, you know, we don't have time to go into it in detail, but what I am not hearing, and I'm not even sure legalizing it would do this, but I think it would come closer than anything else. I'm not hearing how this is translating into uh what the improvement association and the mayor wanted, which was a lower profile in Waikiki.

[00:22:51] Kenneth Tano: Well, Mary Jane, I really appreciate uh your joining us this morning. I know you've got to go, uh but thank you very much.

[00:22:57] Mary Jane McMurdo: Okay, thank you very much for calling. Okay, bye.

[00:23:00] Kenneth Tano: Um and I noticed as Mary Jane was talking, I had some reactions here in uh in the studio, and I want to get those very quickly. And then we've got some more callers on the line. And if you joined us late, um I want to let you know we're talking about the legalization of prostitution. Our guests in the studio are Kenneth Tanno, who is a captain in the vice division of the Honolulu Police Department. That's the division that deals with drugs, gambling, and prostitution.

[00:23:24] Kenneth Tano: Tracy Ryan, who is a spokesperson for an organization that is in favor of legalizing prostitution, uh the Reverend Pam Vessels, who is an ordained minister, and works at the Waikiki Health Center. Her position is, and I know this is oversimplifying uh everyone's position, but she's for decriminalization. And uh we've talked to Mary Jane McMurdo, who is a representative in the legislature who has introduced legislation this year that would would legalize it. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821 and neighbor islanders are always invited to call us collect. First, we'll go to Tracy Ryan.

[00:24:00] Tracy Ryan: Uh, I just want to explain a little bit about the law. There isn't a single prostitution law. It's actually a series of four or five different statutes which relate to different things. The statute that Mary Jane was bringing up, which the police officer brought up, is 712-1205, which was a law passed in 1972, saying that you couldn't convict someone of being a pimp based on the testimony of a prostitute. You had to have more.

[00:24:25] Tracy Ryan: The problem was later that the court ruled that that meant you couldn't convict a pimp on the testimony of two or three prostitutes, because it was still just the word of a prostitute and they took it to mean that a prostitute's word was no good. And that's what made the law basically unenforceable.

[00:24:39] Tracy Ryan: Um, it was this law is being amended now by the way because I brought it up. They have had it on the books for 20 years. They complained that they can't enforce the law, and it was up to me to actually point out to them if two or three months ago, to the Women's Political caucus which is this is the law, which is why the state can't do anything and why they have had to turn to the federal government to actually prosecute pimps.

[00:24:59] Kenneth Tano: So sometimes an individual can make a difference.

[00:25:05] Tracy Ryan: We go, and Tracy, you're you're saying, 'Well, yes.' Your your expression is saying, 'Well yes, but it's been an awful lot of work.' It's it's just that um, no, this the whole situation is, it's it's ridiculous. You've got a situation where people are being harmed and the law is protecting the the people who are doing the harm, and the people who are being harmed are the ones who are being hurt by the law. It's crazy.

[00:25:25] Kenneth Tano: Well, and I think everyone in this room says there's something wrong with the status quo. Uh Ken Tanno, I believe you would say that there are a number of things wrong. You've mentioned the the lack of prison space, you've mentioned some problems with with the laws themselves. Um you you certainly don't think that it's working right now, do you? Well, the first thing I want to do is, of course, thank Tracy for her innovation and in helping us with the law.

[00:25:50] Kenneth Tano: Um, you know, I think with the police department, we're looking at uh the issues a little differently as uh 20 years ago, where we're thinking, well, prostitutes are are criminals, they should be locked up. Uh we realize the the problems um that go on in prostitute's lives. We feel that perhaps incarceration could be a means to to educate them and and do something that is would serve in a positive way. You know, but currently the law is probably the the only deterrent that we have for the for prostitution. So, you're saying, 'Without consequences to the prostitute, we're just going to have more of what we have now.'

[00:26:29] Kenneth Tano: That's correct. Uh Pam Vessels, and then we have a number of people on the line, we'll go to them.

[00:26:33] Pam Vessels: Well, I would like to address this prison space issue, but first of all, I'd like to address the testing, HIV and STD testing and counseling. I think this part of the bill makes me angrier than any other part. And that is that when a woman, if it's legal and a woman decides to go into prostitution, she has to provide verifiable identification. I'm sure she's going to have to be fingerprinted and and she's also going to have to give up her blood and vaginal secretions for testing on a regular basis.

[00:27:02] Pam Vessels: The client, on the other hand, is going to come into the establishment, be patted on the back and say, 'Hey, we're really glad to see you. Welcome, we're having a special tonight.' And that person is going to go in and pay for the privilege of entering someone else's body or participating in some sexual activity with them. And this man is not going to have to give his name, address, phone number, fingerprints. He is not going to have to leave a deposit of his blood or semen at the door.

[00:27:33] Kenneth Tano: And you're saying with with legalization and regulation, it's the government that is treating the man like a a a valued customer.

[00:27:41] Pam Vessels: He is a valued customer and the person providing the service is still stigmatized. It is still, she is still going to be seen as a vector of disease, when in reality, it is much easier for a woman to get HIV from a man than for a man to get it from a woman. And yet, she is going to have to submit herself every week to these kinds of tests and while this man is going to come, he's going to pay his money, have his sexual experience however he defines it, and get back in his car, drive back to Mililani and walk in his door and say, 'Hi honey, I'm home.'

[00:28:18] Pam Vessels: You know, the real thing that we cannot address with prostitution, because it is just too hard to face, is that it is not tourists who keep prostitutes in business. It is not tourists, it is not people from the mainland or Japan who come over here and want to put their money down to pay to rent the body of someone. The thing that is so hard for us to grasp, because it hurts so much, is that women know deep down that it is the men they love who are keeping prostitutes in business.

[00:28:51] Kenneth Tano: Husbands and fathers.

[00:28:52] Pam Vessels: It is their husbands, their fathers, their sons, their grandfathers and until women get to the point where we can acknowledge that and come together to protect our sisters and to hold the men in our lives accountable, then uh, it doesn't matter what we do.

[00:29:10] Kenneth Tano: Okay. I know you also want to comment on the prison issue and and we'll come back to that before the hour is up, but we've got a bunch of people who have been waiting patiently. So let's go to Wayne in St. Louis Heights. Good morning, Wayne. counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting. Reverend counting.

[00:30:21] Tracy Ryan: for a while. The people complained because the prostitutes had spread out all over the city, so they brought it back in the 30s. Um, it was closed down in September 44 because we had at that point an appointed um governor who felt that the prostitution was a very bad thing to have, and he took it upon himself to close down the brothels over the objections of almost everybody.

[00:30:41] Tracy Ryan: And after after the war when a lot of the military left and there wasn't that much demand, complacency set in and we've simply continued with it being illegal. It wasn't closed down because there was any particular problem with it, it was closed down because we had a governor who felt that it was the wrong wrong thing in our state to have and he didn't have to answer to the electorate.

[00:31:00] Kenneth Tano: Wayne, does that answer your question?

[00:31:01] Wayne: Yes, thanks very much.

[00:31:02] Kenneth Tano: Thank you. Let's go to Linda in Makiki. Good morning, Linda.

[00:31:05] Linda: Good morning. I just would like to ask a question of the people there today. Um if I'm not mistaken, the law in Norway, in Scandinavia is such that it is not a crime for the woman to to to be a prostitute, for the man or the woman to be a prostitute, but that it is a crime for anyone else to make money off of that act. What do the people think about that?

[00:31:29] Pam Vessels: Uh Pam Vessels, do you, are you familiar with that? I'm familiar with that, and I really think that uh the person doing the work should make the money. And um right now that's just not what happens because the prostitute who makes the money now turns it over to someone else.

[00:31:45] Kenneth Tano: Is it your impression, and and I think there are a number of of other places around the world, I've I've heard Denmark and Germany and Canada mentioned as as places where it's legal in in one form or another. Is it your impression, Pam, that that's quote working, not working? Um what have we learned from all of those experiments around the world?

[00:32:08] Pam Vessels: That men are unable to control their bodies.

[00:32:12] Kenneth Tano: Okay. Let's get uh Ken Tanno's. You know, I was just reading an article about what was happening in Sweden where the officials there are trying to repeal the law because of all the problems that are that are occurring with the the women um harassing men, um with the men prostitutes harassing the women, of course. Um So you're saying, with the men or women, the prostitutes harassing other people? Right. And it just the the general lawlessness that that occurs based on on the prostitution. Okay. Tracy Ryan.

[00:32:42] Tracy Ryan: I I comment on that. Um there are a lot of complaints which people have about prostitutes. And if you look at the complaints which are coming from Waikiki which deal with harassment, those are complaints about things which prostitutes are doing. They're not complaints about prostitution. And even when I've talked to people from the neighborhood board down there and from the Improvement Association, they're not concerned that there's prostitution in Waikiki. What they're concerned about is the girls are bothering people by grabbing them or harassing them or or things of that nature.

[00:33:11] Tracy Ryan: And those are things which could be covered by other laws. We can have laws against someone grabbing passers-by or following you down the street and pestering you. It's the same thing that there that was on um the 2020 two nights ago about can we control aggressive begging in various parts of the country where people are being harassed on the street. That's an entirely different issue. And when for prostitutes are engaged in other illegal activity such as stealing or selling drugs or anything other, there are already laws for that.

[00:33:36] Tracy Ryan: You don't need a law making just being a prostitute a criminal in order to get out of various other things which a prostitute may also be doing.

[00:33:43] Kenneth Tano: Let me ask Ken Tanno, uh from the perspective of the police department, what you think of what you're hearing from Tracy? Well, you know, unless you you work the streets uh as I did in Waikiki, uh you don't you don't see the violence and the things that are occurring based on on the prostitution. Um prostitutes themselves are victimized. We've had a a prostitute several years back that was murdered. Uh they're they're robbed and they're raped themselves. So I don't think this this state is is ready to condone that act and say that prostitution is going to be okay here in in Hawaii.

[00:34:20] Kenneth Tano: So in a in a way, you're saying what I think Pam was saying earlier, that even if we could somehow put it out of sight, that there's something really very bad going on that society shouldn't tolerate. And they're going to be victimized.

[00:34:32] Tracy Ryan: It's if if the prostitute wasn't in in in her essence committing what is today a criminal act, then it would be up to the Department of Labor and the Police Department to protect her from all this victimization that's happening to her. If she's been beaten by someone or raped, then she should get the same legal protection as anyone else. But let me give you a there's a case which occurred a couple of months ago where four men had four prostitutes in a hotel room in Waikiki. They pretended they were police officers, they threatened the the girls, they threatened to throw them out the window, they took advantage of them sexually, and then they robbed them.

[00:35:03] Tracy Ryan: So the girls went down, told the police. The police took the police report, arrested the men, turned around and arrested the four women for prostitution. Now with that kind of thing going on, what is the I mean, how much motivation is there for the prostitute to come forward when she's victimized? If she feels that just because she's a prostitute she can be arrested for that, even when she comes forward, when she's been victimized.

[00:35:22] Kenneth Tano: Let me ask Ken Tanno, and and I'm sitting here thinking, well, that's terrible. On the other hand, I guess you can't yourself decide which people who've committed a crime to go after and which ones not to go after. But is there another explanation for that? Well, what we would do is uh in order to to get the cooperation of the the prostitute to become witnesses, we could uh work with the prosecutor's office and work out an agreement to drop the charges.

[00:35:46] Kenneth Tano: Uh so that's how you get the leverage in the first place is you you arrest them, but the expectation is that once they cooperate then Yes, because the robbery, the assaults, that those are much more serious offenses. We're dealing with a prostitution is a petty misdemeanor and we would be able to to uh negotiate something to drop the charges. Okay. Well, Linda and Makiki, if you're still there, you've generated an interesting conversation at this end.

[00:36:10] Linda: I'm Okay, thank you.

[00:36:12] Kenneth Tano: Thank you. Let's go to Dennis in Kailua. Good morning, Dennis.

[00:36:15] Dennis: Good morning. Uh I've done a lot of thinking about this topic, so if I could just briefly read a statement about it, I'd like to do that.

[00:36:20] Kenneth Tano: Okay.

[00:36:21] Dennis: I think the sad truth is that uh prostitution, legal or otherwise, has nothing positive to offer for women. If we honestly examine prostitution at its most basic level, we find that it is nothing more than men purchasing the virtually unlimited right to use women's bodies to achieve their sexual gratification. The uh proponents of legalized prostitution have euphemized uh this objectification of women uh into an occupation. The reasoning behind these proposals ironically plays upon the very inequalities that has characterized the relationship between men and women.

[00:36:52] Dennis: The legitimization of an occupation steeped in exploitation because it offers women's women an alternative to pay inequities that exist in normal workplaces, would be laughable if it's not so tragic in its consequences. Prostitution, including the legal type, virtually never benefits the women economically. If it it's the pimps, the brothel owners, organized crime who reap the financial rewards from prostitution. The prostitute on the other hand typically ends up destitute with nothing to show for years of victimization.

[00:37:20] Dennis: I think a lot of people have suggested that there's not much difference between uh men uh, you know, expecting uh sex on a date in a return for a nice night in the town and I think the truth is that this also plays into the the problem with uh prostitution. I know the comment was made earlier that um that prostitution has has never been uh something that we can get away with in in terms of meeting men's demands. And I think the reality is that in those societies where uh men and women are not equal, that is where prostitution, rape, and other uh types of abuse of women take place.

[00:37:56] Kenneth Tano: Okay, Dennis. My comments. Thank you very much for your comment.

[00:37:58] Tracy Ryan: Tracy Ryan has

[00:38:00] Speaker 1: The reaction.

[00:38:01] Speaker 2: Ah, well, I think that, you know, there's there's certainly some truth in what you're saying, but again I have to you know, I have to advise people that all prostitutes' lives are not the same and not all of them are equally, equally victimized. Um, I think that pro obviously there is something in prostitution for the people who go into prostitution. Um, what we have to look at is the people who are going into prostitution, what they look at their choices are and they don't have the same choices, evidently, that other people do. That's why they end up in there. A lot of girls start out in prostitution as teenage runaways, and I think we have a social problem in our country regarding how we are handling teenage runaways, which is something that needs to be dealt with as a social as a separate issue. Why do these girls feel that their best choice is prostitution? They think at that point in their life that it is a choice for survival, and survival is something that people have to do and that's a lot of reasons why people go into this. But I don't I don't agree with the idea that it's in the nature of prostitution which is a problem, it's the nature of our way our society sees prostitution, which is the problem. We see it as an illegal activity without any protection for anybody. I don't think that there's anything inherent in prostitution which creates the victimization. I think if there were, if there were good, good a good, a better society where there's more respect for the prostitute, more protection for her, then we would have a better class of prostitutes with less victimization, and that has occurred in other societies at other times. It's not always as bad as it is here and now.

[00:39:30] Speaker 1: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We call it pop radio. Our topic today is should prostitution be legalized. If you would like to ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 955-8821, and if you joined us late but would like to hear the entire show tonight at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM, you'll have an opportunity to do just that.

[00:39:52] Speaker 1: In the studio with me I have Kenneth Tano, who is a captain in the vice division with the Honolulu Police Department, Tracy Ryan, who is a spokesperson for Hope, H-O-P-E, that group is called Hawaii Opposes Prostitution Enforcement, and Reverend Pam Vessels. Pam is an ordained minister, who is a community health outreach worker for the Waikiki Health Center and also the executive director of a group called Holly Ho Makanah Wahine. We have a caller from Maui, Madzab. Good morning.

[00:40:20] Madzab: Good morning.

[00:40:22] Speaker 1: Did I pronounce your name correctly?

[00:40:23] Madzab: Very close.

[00:40:24] Speaker 1: Okay, go for it.

[00:40:25] Madzab: All right, I work as a physician and I just like to make perhaps two comments.

[00:40:30] Madzab: Um, number one is that I think that we forget that we usually view women as sexual objects, by that I mean if we watch TV, all we see are examples of women have wrinkles, they have pimples, they aren't good enough the way that they are. They need to be better because their bodies are not good the way that they are, they need to have a man. And the other thing which we do is that we often as men think of sex as being power, which is that if I can get them to do what I want to want what I want them to do, I have a lot more power over them. And I think with all this I have to agree with the previous caller, the gentleman who said that there's exploitation of women. And, I think we forget sometimes that sex is basically a basic instinct like breathing and we've taken something that was perhaps initially meant for reproduction or perhaps pleasure, and made it into the focus of an activity which we feel is perhaps the most glamorous in the world, because if you look at all the TV shows and everything, if a man meets a woman, the first thing they do is have sex, and it just seems that we have taken something which is important in our life, made it the most important thing, and then we want people to function as surrogate sex partners or prostitutes, etc., and unfortunately while I do see this being victimization, the since it already exists we need to do something so that the people who are engaging in it have some protection.

[00:42:00] Madzab: So it's kind of like a two-edged sword, I wish it weren't there, but at the same time if it is there we need to do something to protect them, but if we could somehow get to the issues that lead us to having these problems and if we could correct those, that'll make life a lot better.

[00:42:12] Speaker 1: In the meantime, are you saying that we need to legalize it in order to deal with um the problems?

[00:42:20] Madzab: Well, I personally don't see a problem with um having it since we already have it at the present time of paying for sex, but if we're going to do that, then I think definitely it should be like a labor issue where people should be able to get a license, do the things that are required, but of course part of the problem is that the people who enforce the laws also sometimes end up taking advantage of the people who whom they are supposed to be enforcing. Okay, so we'd have to go from the pimps to make sure that people who are enforcing the laws aren't going to do the same thing that the pimps do.

[00:42:54] Speaker 1: Mazep, I appreciate your call.

[00:42:56] Madzab: Thank you, sir.

[00:42:56] Speaker 1: Let me get a reaction from our police officer in the studio, Kentano, and then we'll move on.

[00:43:03] Kenneth Tano: You know, anytime I hear the the issue of legalization, um, you know, we think of uh brothels and just prostitution uh wide open. We're not even able to to get a prison built in different communities without the population going up in an uproar. Um, is this gentleman ready to have the brothel right next door to his house, or are you ready to have uh one of these homes in Kaimuki? You know, I don't think uh we we talk about these issues, but I don't think this community is is ready to to accept anything like that.

[00:43:36] Pam Vessels: Um, I think that you're right. I don't think that people want brothels in their neighborhood, but the reality is they already have brothels in their neighborhood, because the hostess bar industry in this state is a sacred cow, prostitution. And there are any number of hostess bars in this city that have upstairs and back rooms where women are turning tricks on a regular basis, where minors are working in the sex industry. I myself had a 14-year-old foster daughter who was working at age 12 as a prostitute in a local hostess bar.

[00:44:07] Speaker 1: Your article in this morning's paper said, "surely people realize that that's what's going on." Uh, I'm not sure I realized it and I'm wondering, Kentano, is is that an accurate description?

[00:44:18] Kenneth Tano: It's happening. Um, we get complaints on a on a weekly basis and we send our officers in um to do undercover work. It's difficult to make these these kinds of cases. Last year, we Help us Help us to understand why it's so difficult when it when it seems so obviously going on to to people who are there like like Pam. Help us to understand why it's so difficult.

[00:44:38] Kenneth Tano: Well, we we send an officer in. These these women are are are cautious. Um, even um the street prostitutes in in Waikiki, um, we they're very selective. Some of them will not deal with with the locals. They'll only want to deal with the Japanese tourists. It came to a point where they wanted to see a visa, they wanted to see identification, and, and this sounds ridiculous, but at one time they were even checking the underwear of the of the uh the officers because if he was claiming to be a Japanese tourist and he had the BVD brand, then perhaps he wasn't. So it, you know, it's not as easy as going in there and and making a case.

[00:45:19] Speaker 1: This is a Pam and her article was saying these people have wonderful survival skills. And evidently they've they've figured out how to deal with your attempts to um uh to get in there and and crack down on it. Tracy Ryan.

[00:45:32] Tracy Ryan: I just want to add a little bit about, um, we talked about brothels and we talked about street walking. We haven't talked about the escort service industry at all, which um apparently, from listening to the community, seems to be the area of prostitution which has the least objections from the public. And, um, what we've seen recently is is um a lot more people advertising in various newspapers and stuff for things which I believe to be believe to be prostitution. And, um, we've actually been looking, our our attorneys have been looking for a a case to test the constitutionally constitutionality of the law based on um them charging an escort because the very clean case without a lot of these other issues, which we've been talking about, which apply to other areas of prostitution. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that there have there have been any any arrests since this this um this whole subject matter came up in in in the public forum last year. It seems that um they've decided that they want to concentrate on where people are complaining and um not enforce the law where no one's complaining, which just makes political sense, but it makes it more difficult for us to get our court challenge going, because I believe if we do get into court with a case, that the law will be ruled unconstitutional.

[00:46:41] Speaker 1: And that goes back to this notion that a lot of people really don't care if it's going on, they just want it out of sight. Let's go to Diana in Honolulu, who's been waiting very patiently. Good morning, Diana.

[00:46:51] Diana: Good morning. Um I really thought that Denis gave an excellent analysis of the problem. That's the that wrote read the statement? Right, yeah. It was really excellent. I know that when they've done studies of prostitution, they find that in societies or cultures where women can go out and they can earn as good money as men, and there's a lot of equality between men and women, there tends to be less prostitution. It's kind of a uh hierarchical dominance kind of act, where women often have trouble um making enough money to survive, and also it's a power thing. Okay. Um, there are uneven power relationships and women are more subordinate, in a way, you know, as it flourishes or it becomes worse, it's kind of a symptom of something bigger and worse going on.

[00:47:42] Speaker 1: Okay, let me get a reaction to that from Tracy Ryan.

[00:47:45] Tracy Ryan: I would tend to agree and what you're looking at is differences in the in the economics in the society, in a society where you'd suppose didn't have this steady stream of teenage runaways and things creating people who wanted or needed to be in prostitution, if there were was other opportunities for these women, you'd see fewer women in prostitution, but you wouldn't see less demand from men for prostitutes. What you'd have is the prostitutes would be much better off. They could charge for more for their fees and they would probably be able to get more protection, more respect from the community. Um, so I do go back to the idea that it's a social issue and how our society deals with women, deals with teenagers, deals with prostitution, which makes it worse. And I and and I think that the criminal law against against prostitution is what makes things the worst it all worst of all because all the problems which we brought up about prostitution are not helped by the law. Every one of them right down the line are made worse by us having a criminal law against it.

[00:48:40] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, earlier, everyone in the studio indicated and certainly Mary Jane McMurdo agreed that that there's something wrong with the status quo, and that really as a community we we ought to be doing something. Now there's disagreement as to what we ought to do, but everyone seems to agree that that something should be done. Kentano commented that that one of the problems from the police department's perspective is the lack of prison space, and Pam Vessels, I know earlier you had something you wanted to say about that aspect of the issue and so, we'll hear from you now.

[00:49:09] Pam Vessels: Um, there is a lack of prison space and um one of the things I think that's an overriding issue for me is that what I keep hearing about on many different issues in the legislature this year is uh the concept of punishment and judgment, and that somehow incarceration is the cure all for this. And I personally think that redemption is the cure all for this, and that that has to happen someplace outside of prison, because you can put people in prison forever, but if you do not provide for them the ability to change their lives while they're there, then what you have is a holding space where people learn to be better criminals. Okay. So, I I have one more thing, I think that, you know, there are programs around that offer some solutions to this, and the truth is that the community has supported some of these rehabilitation programs, but only to a limited extent, and I think that if some of the people in Waikiki who are complaining so much about prostitution on their streets would put their time, their energy and their money into the programs that are available to provide women with education and therapy and support, the things that they're going to need in order to redirect their lives away from prostitution, then you would see fewer prostitutes in Waikiki, and you would see women who have been in prostitution and who are now working in um as uh doctors and lawyers and uh checkers at Safeway, that they would be out there talking to their sisters and saying, "you know, there's a better way to do this."

[00:50:53] Speaker 1: Uh, comment from Kentano?

[00:50:56] Kenneth Tano: Well, you know, I agree with uh Pam Vessels that we need to do more. Um, I think the law acts as a deterrent and we need to have the law. However, we we have to look at what's happening with the an example is drug court, where we now are looking at at defendants and saying, "okay, if you if you have a problem, we don't we're not interested in just locking you up. By mandate, by the court, by a court mandate, you are required to go through treatment. You are required to to be educated, you are required now to stay drug free and we're going to check on these these things and we're not going to lock you up." We need to have those same kind of programs, I think. But the the the hammer in this whole thing can be law enforcement and that's where it can be very beneficial.

[00:51:39] Speaker 1: So you have to have that leverage in order to give people the incentive that you think they need to have to clean up their act.

[00:51:45] Kenneth Tano: For one thing, to stay off of prostitution, not to become involved in it. And if you are, if you are involved with it, then there's going to be a means upon your arrest to to be rehabilitated.

[00:51:56] Speaker 1: Let's get a quick response from Pam and then Tracy has something to add.

[00:51:59] Pam Vessels: Well, I certainly agree um with the officer, but I think that one of the pieces that's missing this in this right now is that the agencies that are available to help these women and who indeed are taking them out of prison on supervised release and extended furlough and things like that, the prison system is still getting paid for these people. But the people who take them into their programs are not getting any money. And so if our program takes a woman on extended furlough or supervised arrest, then we're feeding her, clothing her, sending her to college or getting her GED and providing her for therapy and the state is still getting the prison system is getting the money for that, and the agency doing all of the work and putting all the money out on behalf of this woman because we have faith in her ability to succeed, is not getting any money for it.

[00:52:46] Speaker 1: And I know your organization is one of many that have had your funds from the government drastically reduced over the last year.

[00:52:52] Pam Vessels: Well, I'm sorry. That isn't true. We do not get any federal or state money. We only get money from uh individuals and non- um community organizations such as the Hawaii Community Foundation.

[00:53:03] Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Tracy, I think you had a comment.

[00:53:06] Tracy Ryan: Well, I would say that again, I don't think that we need the laws as a deterrent. If we go back to what the in the opening comments were from Ken was that no one was going to jail, so if that is the case, which I don't agree, I don't think it's it's any deterrent anyway. Um, I don't think that I I don't like the idea that it's saying we're saying we need to have some coercive power over people to force them to get their lives together. I think it's up to them to get their lives together. And as a society, I think the criminal law should be there for some definite public purpose, not to tell one person or another how they should live their life, because someone else says that this is the wrong way for you you to lose live your life. Um, if the prostitutes feel that they have all these problems, then there should be resources for them to go to. They should be protected by law from different abuses which occur from them, but no one should be saying, "just because they're having sex with someone for money, we should have the right to force them to do other things with through force of law. We we disagree with that."

[00:54:03] Speaker 1: Tracy, I know from talking to you earlier that you believe most people would support legalization of prostitution.

[00:54:10] Tracy Ryan: That was what our our polling found. Uh, they don't all agree with uh with our my my opinion, it's a variety of different opinions, but um a lot of them would agree with with Mary Jane's opinion that we should have it legal but strictly controlled. Most men think it would be great to have legalized prostitution where it was controlled and there was no ill consequence for the man and the women were all regulated and, you know, subject to health checks. I do before we leave, I want one more comment but you can go on if you.

[00:54:38] Tracy Ryan: I promised to come back to you but I just wanted to to underline what I think you're saying, which is there are a lot of different reasons why you think the majority of people in our community would support legalization. But your your attempts to measure that suggests that a majority would support legalization. 70% 70% but they don't all agree with each other on how.

[00:55:05] Kenneth Tano: Well, I guess it it has to do with the people you deal with and uh I've dealt a lot with the the people in Waikiki, the business community, uh Waikiki Improvement Association, the uh Waikiki Neighborhood Board and they are totally against any form of uh legalization.

[00:55:12] Speaker 1: Okay, well we're down to the last minute or two. Uh each of you will have a minute let's say to to sum up or to add what hasn't yet been said. Let's start with you, Tracy.

[00:55:21] Tracy Ryan: I would just disagree with the last comment because I have personally talked to the people on the Improvement Association on the Neighborhood Board and they've said that they way the only alternative they're given to having the street walking which they're complaining about is a criminal law. If they had an alternative which allowed legal um brothels or escort services or whatever they had no objection to it. That's a view of people who would support legalization but don't agree with me, don't agree with you. Um, but so that's why I say there's different points of view. Also, I wanted to just bring up briefly um the idea of of the health checks and the the threat of disease. The girls in Hawaii are very careful to practice safe sex. The rates of of sexually transmitted in a disease in Hawaii are very low, very low. Um the rate of syphilis here is 3.5%, whereas a national average is 39.7%. And we have a very, we have a large number of prostitutes in Hawaii because it's a good market for it, a lot of visitors, military personnel. And so I think that saying that the girls are are being irresponsible and we should be overly worried about it is not true. The girls are very responsible about practicing safe sex.

[00:56:25] Kenneth Tano: Well, the bottom line is in in law enforcement, uh police officers are we're required to enforce the law. The law is is basically the voice of the people um and until the law is changed, you know, and we do have complaints in Waikiki or with massage parlors or whatever, we're going to do our best to to address those problems and the course of action that we have is through arrests.

[00:56:50] Pam Vessels: Well, I think that there really is no society where men and women are truly equal, and I think that that is one of the factors that

[00:57:00] Speaker 1: keeps prostitution flourishing in our world, and I think that the bottom line for me is that I really do believe that prostitution is violence against women and children, and that our responsibility as a community is to protect our women and children.

[00:57:15] Speaker 2: Okay, I want to thank my guest in the studio, HPD's Kentano, Tracy Ryan from an organization called Hope, and Reverend Pam Vessels from the Waikiki Health Center. Our producer is Suzie Roth, our assistant producer this morning is Wally Roth, our director of operations at Hawaii Public Radio is Jeff Ilardy. If you'd like to hear the show in its entirety tonight at 8 o'clock on KIFO 1380 a.m., you can do just that.

[00:57:41] Speaker 2: Our show next week is going to be who runs the University of Hawaii. David Yount has written a very provocative book. Whoop. David Yount has written a very provocative book with that as a title, Who Runs the University. He and Stewart Howe will be here. You're going to want to hear it. You've been listening to pop radio. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

[00:57:56] Randall Roth: You've been listening to Pop Radio. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.