Should We Build a New UH Campus in West Oahu?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-02-25
Guests: Margery Bronster (Attorney General of Hawaii); Bruce Bergland (UH administrator); Sumner La Croix (Professor of Economics, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 01:04:58

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Good morning. This is Randy Roth, host of Pop Radio. We're broadcast live each Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM. All of us who work on this program are volunteers who believe in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. In putting together each show, we try to identify people who are not just knowledgeable, but also thoughtful and open-minded, so that even though they generally have different perspectives and opinions on the issues, they share a goal of shedding light rather than generating heat with respect to our topic.

[00:00:41] Randall Roth: Today's topic is the Governor's proposal to build a new campus at the University of Hawaii, West Oahu. If you've done your homework, you know that Governor Cayetano laid out that plan a week or so ago, or I guess it was exactly a week ago on page one of the advertiser's focus section. Right next to it was an article critical of the Governor's plan. It was written by three economists from the University of Hawaii Manoa: Jim Mack, Sumner LaCroix, and Jim Romaset.

[00:01:07] Randall Roth: In this morning's advertiser on the op-ed page of the focus section, four professors from the University of Hawaii, West Oahu, respond to the article that responded to the Governor's plan. I guess you could call it the critics are being critiqued. Together, all of these articles constitute what we consider lively and informed public dialogue of the highest order. Again, our topic today is the Governor's proposal to build a campus for the University of Hawaii at West Oahu. With me in the studio are Marjorie Bronster and Sumner LaCroix.

[00:01:38] Randall Roth: Marjorie has been the Attorney General for the state of Hawaii for one year. Before that, she was a partner at the Carl Smith Ball Law firm and has been a past president of the Hawaii Lawyers Care organization that provides pro bono legal services. Ms. Bronster studied Chinese language and history at Brown University and attended Columbia University School of Law. Good morning, Marjorie.

[00:01:59] Margery Bronster: Good morning.

[00:02:01] Randall Roth: Sumner LaCroix is a professor of Economics at the University of Hawaii Manoa and senior fellow in the International Economics working group at the East West Center. He was the 93-94 recipient of the Robert Clumpton award for distinguished community service at the university, and the 93-94 recipient of an excellence in teaching award from the University of Hawaii Manoa College of Social Sciences. Sumner's research is focused on the economic history and recent development of Hawaii and other Asia-Pacific economies. He has published extensively on land issues in Hawaii, intellectual property disputes between the United States and Asian countries, and the expanding Asian aviation industry, as well as foreign investment in China. Good morning, Sumner.

[00:02:43] Sumner La Croix: Good morning.

[00:02:44] Randall Roth: We also have on the phone with us Bruce Bergland, who is the executive vice chancellor and a professor of Psychology at the University of Hawaii, West Oahu. Bruce has his BS degree from Iowa State University in Psychology and a PhD from Stanford in counseling. We're going to be talking to Bruce by phone in just a few minutes, but I want to start this conversation by asking you, Marjorie, I know you and Earl Ansai have been the point people for the governor in working out this proposal.

[00:03:13] Randall Roth: Could you real real briefly, kind of the reader's digest super condensed version, and I know you're going to have to oversimplify it to to do this, but could you just tell us very quickly what the plan is all about?

[00:03:24] Margery Bronster: Sure. I'll I'll try and keep it brief, but as you know, it is a very complex transaction, and I will just give you the highlights. A number of years ago, the state purchased about 1,100 acres out in Kapolei and some other lands, including a 59 acre Raceway Park. Um, at that time, Campbell Estate agreed to give the state 200 acres for use of as a university. Under the current transaction that we've been negotiating, we would exchange the 59 acre Raceway Park for approximately 991 acres of land. That land uh could be used for the university and related purposes.

[00:04:08] Margery Bronster: In addition, the state is planning to lease a building in the civic center in Kapolei, and Campbell Estate has agreed to give the state uh an area of up to 10 acres for 10 years at cost for a temporary campus for the university. And basically what this deal does, it gives us greater flexibility in timing and an opportunity to develop some of the remaining lands for sale in order to fund the university.

[00:04:38] Randall Roth: Okay. And and as I understand it, the University of West Oahu has been around for 20 years, but it's consisted of of not much more than three temporary buildings on the parking lot of Leeward Community College. So to say they've been treated like a stepchild, I guess is to to overstate the degree of support that they've received over the years.

[00:05:13] Randall Roth: So the University of of Hawaii, West Oahu is out there, and so we're not talking about creating a new university, we're talking about building a campus, and what I hear you saying is that you've worked out a land exchange and a way of arguably coming up with much, if not all of the funds necessary to build that campus. Marjorie?

[00:05:18] Margery Bronster: Well, I think that basically the temporary campus will take care of West Oahu for the next 10 years or so. Uh the it will give an opportunity for West Oahu to continue, and I understand that there are questions about accreditation if it just remains as a temporary site on the parking lot.

[00:05:36] Randall Roth: Okay. So if nothing is done, perhaps they'll lose their accreditation, and if that happens, I think probably and we'll ask Bruce Bergland in a minute, but I think probably that campus goes out of existence. So perhaps, perhaps something has to be done.

[00:05:51] Margery Bronster: That's right, and I think that it gives us a short term opportunity for a temporary location and some real long-term opportunities.

[00:05:58] Randall Roth: And I think that's where I I muddled things a little bit. You're telling us that really two things are going on. One is that Campbell Estate would provide what we need for the next 10 years for a temporary site that would probably satisfy the accreditation folks, but then in the long run, what we're really talking about is is a brand new very expensive campus, and that's the portion of this plan that we're going to focus on mostly today in our conversation. Do I have it right?

[00:06:23] Margery Bronster: That's correct.

[00:06:24] Randall Roth: Okay. Sumner, very quickly, hopefully more quickly than what I've asked my questions. Can you sum up your major concerns with the Governor's proposal?

[00:06:33] Sumner La Croix: Okay. Um, I want to start off just by praising the Governor and his administration for putting together a creative land deal in a time of budgetary stringency which essentially acts to raise capital improvement funds for the state where they would otherwise not be available. Where my uh problems with this plan arise is that I'm concerned that that the use of the funds may not be the best use of the funds, that we haven't really carefully investigated what the alternative uses might be.

[00:07:02] Sumner La Croix: I'm also concerned that building a larger West Oahu campus will not contribute to the overall excellence of the UH system, and that at this point in time, maintaining and building the excellence of the system really should be our top priority. Finally, I think it's important before we move ahead with expansion plans for UH West Oahu, to consider how much it's going to cost to operate and to maintain an expanded UH West Oahu. It's important to take a look at the impact on the current budgets as well as on future budgets. So, in a nutshell, those are my uh concerns about the plans to expand UH West Oahu.

[00:07:41] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's get a voice from the University of Hawaii, West Oahu. Bruce Bergland is the executive vice chancellor as well as professor of Psychology out there. He's been uh at the University of Hawaii, West Oahu since August of last year. His responsibilities include administration of day-to-day operations, uh provision of executive leadership to deans, directors, faculty, staff, etc., development of an administration of the campus budget, etc. In other words, this is the head guy out there so far as that campus is concerned. Bruce, are you there?

[00:08:14] Bruce Bergland: Yes, I'm here.

[00:08:15] Randall Roth: Have you heard what Marjorie and Sumner have added uh to our conversation thus far?

[00:08:19] Bruce Bergland: Yes, definitely.

[00:08:21] Randall Roth: Any thoughts from you?

[00:08:22] Bruce Bergland: Um, yes. As you mentioned, I've just been here since August, and uh because of my newness, I have spent most of the time uh focusing on uh meeting people, going to neighborhood board meetings, rotary clubs, etc., etc. in the West Oahu region, uh, trying my best to learn from people about what their concerns are. And of course, the first thing that I would say uh from from all of this work that I've done is that the people of West Oahu definitely need and want higher education services.

[00:08:53] Bruce Bergland: Now, obviously, uh Leeward Community College and and Provost Polk there do a great job at the at the community college level, um, but these the people of that region are are are greatly desirous of of four year degree services. And uh it was my impression coming here that that's one of the commitments that the state and the regions had made uh particularly with the the whole development of the second city concept. Um, so I've been hearing that loud and clear from all the people there.

[00:09:22] Bruce Bergland: Uh a second point I would I would make is that uh West Oahu, you're right. West Oahu is probably isn't even fair to call a stepchild at the moment given the way it has been living. However, because it is so undeveloped, um it can be developed into something that fits the needs most both of that region and this and our system. That is to be a complementary part of the system, not a duplicative part.

[00:09:47] Bruce Bergland: Uh that brings me to my third point, which is if you approach the development of that institution in that manner, um you can also therefore do some things that allow uh the Manoa campus to continue to do what it does best and what it its people are there to do, uh while not forcing Manoa into trying to be all things to all people. And I think that's a concern that that probably bears a little more attention than it's than it's gotten so far. West Oahu teaches half of its courses at night. It's the average age of its student population, and these are these are undergraduate students is 32 years of age.

[00:10:25] Bruce Bergland: Um, it's a very different kind of institution than Manoa and serves a different kind of role that Manoa has not chosen to serve, whether it wants to or not, I don't know.

[00:10:34] Randall Roth: Bruce, let me ask you a question. Um is it correct to say that without a new campus or a solid print plan for a new campus that your accreditation would be in in great jeopardy and that's a nice way of saying you'd probably lose it?

[00:10:50] Bruce Bergland: Um, I I think you're you're very close to accurate there. Obviously, I I don't know exactly what the accrediting body would do. However, the the accrediting body visited in 1988, it's the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. It visited and said that, in fact, the programmatic thrust of the institution was quite good, that the the the quality of what was being done there was good, but that because of the lack of physical facilities, the lack of commitment to anything resembling a real uh institution from the physical point of view and resource point of view, that they put the institution on warning status.

[00:11:26] Bruce Bergland: Now, that there are two more severe levels of sanction. One is probation, and then then the next is show cause. Show cause means that you are told to come and explain why your accreditation should not be uh taken away. The problem that West Oahu faces right now is that it has been a number of years since that last warning, and we believe that there's a high probability that when the accrediting body comes in October of '96, if there has not been a significant change in the in the evidence of commitment, that instead of just going to probation, there's a real chance they would go to show cause.

[00:12:01] Randall Roth: Okay. Bruce, thanks a lot and stay on the line. We want to come back to you a little bit later. And in the small world department, uh Bruce and I used to play handball once in a while together at the downtown YMCA in Denver about 20-25 years ago. You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. Our topic today is the Governor's proposal to build a campus for the University of Hawaii at West Oahu.

[00:12:23] Randall Roth: With me in the studio are Marjorie Bronster, the Attorney General for the state, who together with Earl Ansai has been a point person for the governor in working out this proposal, and also Sumner LaCroix, who is a professor of Economics at the University of Hawaii, Manoa. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, you can call us at 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders just have to add a 1-800 to that, so it would be 1-800-955-8821. If anyone tuned in late and would like to hear the show in its entirety tonight on tonight on KIFO 1380 AM at 8:00, you'll have the opportunity to do just that.

[00:13:03] Randall Roth: Well, one of the things, Marjorie, that Sumner said is that he's not sure where the funds would come from to operate the new campus. The Governor's proposal, as I understand it, is is limited to the building of of the campus. Um, what's the thinking right now in terms of of where the money to operate the campus would come from, or is that simply in somebody else's uh culiana?

[00:13:28] Margery Bronster: I think generally it's fair to say that that's something that we did not address in discussing the deal with Campbell Estate. We were trying to open up some flexibility here, and the special fund that would be established under the legislation that's now being considered is for development costs.

[00:13:45] Randall Roth: Okay. And so it to me, a strength and a weakness of the proposal, and a strength and a weakness of the critique of the proposal is that what really counts with respect to what we're talking about is what things are going to be like in 10, 20, 50, 100 years. And so I guess you're saying, we really don't know what the state's finances are going to be, um, fair to say?

[00:14:09] Margery Bronster: Well, there's part of it that that is fair to say. I think that the whole idea of with the West Oahu campus has been discussed for a lot longer time than just this last year. I think the commitment was made years and years ago, but I think what's important to realize is that under the the proposed legislation, there is a special fund where the university would get all of the net proceeds from the development of 500 acres of land.

[00:14:36] Randall Roth: Okay. Sumner, as I understand it, the the development of this 500 acres basically would involve the state government going into the land development business. And on the one hand, I'm wondering whether governments are supposed to do that, but if there's no philosophical objection to that, maybe the government should develop even more land and have more profits. In other words, I'm sitting here wondering whether that's a good idea, a bad idea. What are your thoughts?

[00:15:02] Sumner La Croix: Well, government going into the land development business, it's not usually something that we see happen in other states. Uh we've had it happen before, uh in this state, and there's been mixed consequences um of government going into the land development business. I do want to note that uh I think contrary to the Governor's statement that the that the land development business is a relatively riskless business. That that there is a certain amount of risk which is attached to it and that even though the expected proceeds uh from the development uh of the 500 acres are $92 million, certainly they could be substantially less uh or substantially more.

[00:15:36] Sumner La Croix: It is a project that has some that has some risk, depending upon what happens with the Hawaii economy, the prospects uh for jobs in the future. What concerns me too about about there's only two major concerns I have with the land deal. Uh the first major concern is it is it locks us in to building uh West Oahu down the road. Uh right now, this provision that essentially says that we have to start construction in West Oahu by the year 2006, uh that's still 10 years away. And sometimes when we see provisions in contracts that are 10 years away, we tend to pay less attention to them.

[00:16:12] Sumner La Croix: But then as time moves on and all of a sudden we're 10 years down the road, and now we have to give land back, or we have to pay a fee uh if we don't build West Oahu, um then all of a sudden we end up being locked into a major project.

[00:16:24] Randall Roth: So it's easy to say yes now because after all it's another 10 years, but you're saying we might lock ourselves in to where in 10 years we've got a real problem and that we maybe can't afford to do what we've already started to do and it's beyond the point of no return.

[00:16:38] Sumner La Croix: Well, I think it's one of those things that if we're going to do this type of lock-in clause, we really better give careful adequate thought to what's uh to whether or not we really need West Oahu now because when the 10 years comes, we're not going to want to pay this penalty at that point in time. It reminds me a little bit of the leasehold contracts where people pay less attention when they sign the leasehold clauses down the road but then as you get closer to renegotiation they become more onerous.

[00:17:02] Margery Bronster: Okay. I think that you have to realize that where we currently stand um is that if a university is not completed by the year 2006, the 200 acres that Campbell Estate dedicated to the state will have to be returned. So the 2006 condition that we begin construction was simply an effort on our part to try and ease up the restrictions and make it more likely that we will not end up giving the land or money back to Campbell Estate.

[00:17:37] Randall Roth: And I think as I understand it, Marjorie, at the core of the Governor's plan is the fact that that a new campus out in West Oahu would would benefit the Campbell Estate a lot, and you've negotiated um what a number of people have thought a pretty attractive deal. In other words, you've said to Campbell Estate, this is going to benefit you folks a great deal. What are you going to put on the table? What value you going to give to us? And naturally, they're going to provide it in a form that requires you to build that campus as opposed to allowing you to do anything you want with that.

[00:18:08] Margery Bronster: Well, actually, it's interesting, while I think that the best deal is for the state if we do build the campus, there is a possibility that the state could not build a campus and we would still end up with probably an excess of 700 acres of the 991 acres.

[00:18:27] Randall Roth: So Campbell Estate's kind of gambling that uh this thing's going to work out?

[00:18:31] Margery Bronster: Well, as you point out, I think that there is a lot of benefit in it for the state and for Campbell Estate, and we're certainly hopeful that, you know, the deal will go through and that the university will be built.

[00:19:00] Speaker 1: discussion just a moment ago that I wanted to understand what the benefit was to the Campbell Estate for this big land swap.

[00:19:10] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, let me ask that of Marjorie because Marjorie, you're you've been the one who's been negotiating trying to get every last drop of value out of those folks that you can get. What is the value to them of having this new campus uh there at Kapolei?

[00:19:24] Margery Bronster: Well, as you know, I think the governor has long felt that Kapolei really should be the second city. And I think that consistent with uh the transaction, this would be a win-win situation for both the state, who gets a lot of land, a lot of opportunities, and for Campbell Estate, who will see the second city really kick-started.

[00:19:46] Speaker 2: Okay. David, thank you for your call. We're going to move on to Anne on the Big Island. Good morning, Anne.

[00:19:51] Anne: Good morning. Um I want to say thank you to the Attorney General for the safety action seminars that she uh runs that we've taken I've taken part in for the last year and a half, they're very valuable. But I want to say about the university system, over here on the Big Island, you know, we have a lot of territory to cover and the the the growing campus, or the the campus that's trying to grow on the Kona side is suffering greatly and you talk about step-child, and you talk about loss of accreditation. You don't know from nothing compared to what's happening in Kona.

[00:20:23] Anne: And the people there the the the farthest they might have to go is three hours drive to get to the campus at Hilo. On your on the on the Wahoo, you only have the at the most an hour's ride to any place and you have good public transportation, and we're very frustrated on this island about having an accredited campus on the west side of the island. I just want to state that, please. Thank you.

[00:20:44] Speaker 2: Thank you, Anne, we appreciate your call. Um I think her statement uh can stand on its own. Do you want to either of you want to comment? Uh very well stated. Go ahead.

[00:20:54] Sumner La Croix: Well, I think it's it's uh certainly worth noting that uh these types of of commutes are certainly much longer on the Big Island than they are on Oahu. Um our commutes here are not easy. Uh people who commute in from West Oahu, uh to East Oahu, to the downtown or to Waikiki or to other business areas uh in the state face a very difficult commute, but uh those commutes on the Big Island uh are much more onerous.

[00:21:18] Sumner La Croix: And when we start looking then at the plan for UA to West Oahu, I think we really need to ask the following question, would some of these resources that we're coming that we're currently looking at to devoting to UA to West Oahu, would they be better spent on the other islands? Um I think these are the types of planning questions that we really need to think about much more carefully before we make a decision to plunge into the West Oahu plan.

[00:21:40] Speaker 2: Okay. And Marjorie, as I understand it, the governor's proposal is focused on West Oahu as opposed to perhaps Maui or the Big Island or what have you, because that's where the people are and more importantly, that's where the growth is projected as being?

[00:21:54] Margery Bronster: That's right. I think if you look at the population projections that have been provided and that are available, it shows that currently, the West Oahu population exceeds all the neighbor islands put together. And the projection for the year uh 2020 will be that West Oahu will continue to exceed the combined population of the neighbor islands.

[00:22:16] Speaker 2: Okay. Uh let's go to Steve in Waikiki. Good morning, Steve.

[00:22:20] Steve: Good morning. Um I'd like to refer back to the governor's article of last uh Sunday, in which he explained his position using the example of UC Irvine. Uh he was talking about the California experience where the Irvine Ranch which was essentially something like Campbell's Day, the big land owner, gave the state of California uh a certain amount of land to develop UC Irvine, and he pointed out that the whole Irvine uh California complex had developed very nicely around that campus, and he was hoping a similar uh something similar would happen in West Oahu.

[00:22:57] Steve: And I think it's critical to point out a very basic difference between these two operations and why I think the West Oahu is not similar to the Irvine example that's been given. Can you do that quickly?

[00:23:09] Steve: The University of California Irvine is the UC Irvine is part of the University of California system. It's not California State. It's not a cow college. It's not just a four year campus. It's a branch of an elite research university. Um what's being planned in West Oahu will not generate the high tech parks, will not will not attract anything like it will attract practically no uh outside research funding. It won't work like a research university, which is what UC Irvine does. UC Irvine stimulated growth in Irvine, California, because it was a big main research campus and it was a critical mass of brain power and uh first-class operation. It was part of the UC system, one of the best in the country. What we're proposing in West Oahu is DOE grades 13 through 16, uh another second rate low low level cow college operation and it's not going to do for West Oahu what the University of California Irvine did for Irvine. I think the example is mistaken.

[00:24:13] Speaker 2: Steve, I appreciate your call. You you've made an excellent point and I would just add that there's a letter to the editor in this morning's advertiser in the on the bottom of page B3, where John Thorne has uh suggested the same sort of thing and and given some additional uh reasons for for his position. Steve, thank you a lot. You know, I'm not sure but I think I felt Bruce Bergland kind of jump and maybe hit the ceiling uh when cow college or or DOE grades 13 through 16 or whatever were mentioned. Bruce, are are you there on line 6?

[00:24:45] Bruce Bergland: Yes, I am.

[00:24:45] Speaker 2: I bet you have a reaction to that. But if you could try to keep it short and and civil. And and specifically, I think a lot of people are asking, what would we have out there, assuming that there is this new campus, assuming we get over the first hurdle and we get this thing built, are we going to have something that is going to be more like what we have at Manoah for example, or more different? And I know you addressed that briefly earlier, but in just a matter of seconds, if you could tell us a little bit more about that, especially in the context of Steve's comments and the letter to the editor in this morning's paper that I just mentioned.

[00:25:19] Bruce Bergland: Well, I also want to bring in something that Sumner mentioned. Um he talked about being us being locked into something way down the road. Um I think that that the the development being in old years allows us the opportunity to plan something well. And that's what you want to do when you're building an institution. You want to plan it well so that you you are developing it to fit the needs that you see and also, as I said before, to fit into the system. And along that lines, for example, there is a very real possibility that that West Oahu could be developed based around uh technology of the delivery of higher education via telecommunications, etcetera, etcetera, and developed in such a way that it can serve not only the needs of the people in West Oahu, but the needs uh many of the needs of people in Outer Islands and be, for example, the center for uh the delivery of of things via telecommunication. I'm not saying it has to be that, but the point is, if you are intelligent in your planning and your development, and given this lead time, given the a successful execution of this land deal, that that commitment to developing the campus, I think you can develop something that really does that job well and then, and then also attends to everyone's concern that this not be some low-level cow college, as was mentioned by the caller. It there's no, you know, we have no intention of none of us want would be associated with something of such a poor college quality as the caller just mentioned.

[00:26:48] Speaker 2: Okay. Bruce, thank you and stay on the line. We'll be back. Sumner Lacroy, do you have a response to that?

[00:26:52] Sumner La Croix: In a nutshell, this really goes to my central objection to this project and that is that we should be doing the planning for the project prior to making the commitment to the project. We have a habit in this state of having visions about large projects and then deciding that we want to commit to the project and move ahead. We make the commitment and then we find out about all the problems afterwards as we move down the road. What we ought to be doing on large projects of this type is to be doing the planning first, finding out the pitfalls first, finding out what it's going to cost to build, to operate and to maintain. And then after we have all the information, making the decision as to whether to move forward. I do agree with Bruce that that that that further planning uh is really critical to West Oahu and it's possible that once we see the plans that uh West Oahu will prove to fit very well in into the UH system. I certainly have an open mind, but I'd like to see I'd like to see both the financial and the substantive plans more in place, particularly before this particular legislature moves ahead and approves the land deal.

[00:27:54] Speaker 2: Marjorie?

[00:27:55] Margery Bronster: Well, I think that one of the things you have to realize is that the planning had already been considered for the 500 acres uh below the highway, and I think we all agree that if we were uh stuck with that plan, there would be no university at West Oahu built. What that would mean is that 200 acres or the value of 200 acres would immediately go back to Campbell Estate, we would not get the 991 acres that are being considered for the university, and we would end up with 200 fewer acres uh below the highway and a raceway park instead of 991 acres and 1,300 acres uh below the highway.

[00:28:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, you look like somebody who's just negotiated a great deal and you don't want to lose it, huh? Okay, let's uh let's move on and I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're talking about the governor's proposal to build a campus at the University of Hawaii West Oahu. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. In the studio with me is Marjorie Bronster, the Attorney General for the State of Hawaii, and Sumner Lacroy, a professor of Economics at the University of Hawaii, Manoah. The number again is 955-8821. Let's go to Raj from Waikiki. Good morning.

[00:29:12] Raj: Good morning.

[00:29:13] Raj: I have a comment and a question, uh both um having to do with budgeting. Um in uh both the East-West Center and the University of Hawaii at Manoa, are suffering from budget problems, and it's uh surprising to me that there is no uh endowment or large endowment at either of those institutions and it seems that with budget crisis a a large endowment would have uh maybe solved problems at the library with the journals and and books and other things. And I was wondering whether or not there was a plan uh to begin a major uh drive for endowment to sort of begin uh to give a little more in financial independence to uh both the universities in West Oahu and Manoa.

[00:34:27] Speaker 2: What's your question? Correct. Any plans to establish a sort of a capital uh or an endowment drive or something? Uh when we talk to Bruce in just a little bit, we'll get a response to that specific question. Did you also have a comment or was that wrapped into the question? That was wrapped in. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. We're going to move through some callers real quickly, but we will be hearing from Bruce Bergland some more a little bit later on. Alvin in Kapolei. Good morning, Alvin.

[00:34:48] Alvin: Yeah, uh I've been listening to this and reading your comments in the newspaper right now and one of the things that really bothers me. I'm not, you know, real knowledgeable about what is going on, but what's running through my mind is I don't understand that because the state has so many problems as it is and I was just reading about some problems on Molokai, um it perturbs me, disturbs me a lot that we don't somehow improve what we already have at Leeward Community College and I'm wondering, who is really going to benefit from all of this by putting the college uh through Mr. Kayanos' uh exchange of land with with Campbell Estate and you know, I I I can't understand why we're doing all of this when we already have present problems that haven't been taken care of. And and if Campbell Estate is as benevolent as they claim to be with all this land that uh

[00:35:48] Speaker 2: It's not benevolence. They they've got something to gain from a university out there.

[00:35:53] Alvin: Exactly. Their land value will go up.

[00:35:56] Speaker 2: And and that's why they're willing to kick in uh a lot of land. Well, if they're so benevolent, why don't they pay for the whole school instead of sucking it to the taxpayer? Okay, and Miss Bronster No, we we appreciate your call, Alvin. We we really do and and and Marjorie, uh it's a fair question. Can you maybe squeeze some more out of those folks?

[00:36:15] Margery Bronster: Well, I think that um if you look at what they had given in the past and and what we've negotiated at this point, I think that we have gotten quite a bit for the state.

[00:36:24] Speaker 2: I I guess that's the challenge of any negotiation. You want to push real hard, but not too hard, right? Just just to the point of almost too hard. Uh Alvin, thank you for your call. Sumner a quick reaction and then we're going to move to some more callers.

[00:36:35] Sumner La Croix: Yeah, you know, I I think it's worthwhile at this point to know that the proceeds of the land sale are going to bring about $92 million net uh to the state. Uh the current costs of constructing a new UH West Oahu are estimated at around $148 million. Uh but that figures now has to be adjusted upwards because of the hillside location, uh which is uh which has been chosen uh for the new UH West Oahu. Um once we take into account the usual cost overruns and everything else, if we move that figure up toward the $200, $250 million range, uh then what we're left with still is 100 $100 to $160 million uh shortfall. And I I think again, that's that's the type of planning that I think that we need to uh put forth as to where that type of money is going to come from uh if a new campus is going to be built.

[00:37:22] Speaker 2: Well, and and just reading in the newspaper, evidently there's some folks in the legislature who who share that concern. Uh I know Donna Ikeda, who is chair of the uh Senate Finance Committee is is quoted as saying, if if there are any flaws at all in this financing plan, uh then the whole thing is is going to fall apart. Marjorie, how confident are you that this thing is solid and that there aren't some uh tragic cracks in the proposal?

[00:37:48] Margery Bronster: Well, I I'm not going to speak to the details of the amount of money that's going to be raised, but I think that one thing that is really important to remember is that we're talking about 991 acres being answer to the university. for a university of 2750 students.

[00:38:06] Sumner La Croix: It's a lot of land.

[00:38:07] Margery Bronster: Now, by way of comparison, Kapalani Community College has an enrollment of 4200 students on 44 acres. Leeward Community College has 3800 enrollment on 49 acres. That leaves an awful lot of acres, 900 plus acres uh to do other things for the university, um related activities, there could be sales, there could be uh rental of certain of the land. So that I think that there are a lot of opportunities available to the university and the legislation that is currently being considered would put the title of that land, all 991 acres into the university.

[00:38:50] Sumner La Croix: Mhm. I I think I hear the implications. If we needed to raise a little money, we could do more than just have a bake sale?

[00:38:55] Margery Bronster: I think so.

[00:38:56] Sumner La Croix: Okay. Well, let's go to Scott in Moiliili. Good morning, Scott.

[00:39:00] Scott: Uh, I I too have been following this very closely and I I really appreciate Dr. LeCroy's observations and uh perhaps um uh assisting the state in developing a little more uh uh studied culture of of these large scale planning uh planning of these sort of large scale projects. Uh, I guess the first comparison that came to my mind that this sounds like it's going to cost about to build the campus about four times what it cost to renovate the Capitol for whatever that's worth.

[00:39:31] Scott: But uh uh it also sound something I've maybe learned from what Miss Bronster said this morning is this this is sort of a a uh has a fail safe scenario in five or seven years if if uh the economic situation in Hawaii has not changed too much and this doesn't become as viable. Uh the state isn't really going to lose anything, still will gain. Is that is that what I'm hearing?

[00:39:54] Margery Bronster: That's right. I think that right now, we're pretty sure to lose 200 acres. Um if we don't go through with the with the university at this point, we get some more flexibility and if the state decides later not to go through with it, we still have the rest of the land.

[00:40:09] Scott: That's my question. Thanks.

[00:40:11] Sumner La Croix: Thank you, Scott. Sumner?

[00:40:12] Sumner La Croix: Yeah, I I want to know too that I I did note at the top of the show that that I'm I'm not a a hefty critic of of the governor's uh uh land exchange. In many ways, I think it's quite creative and I I really do have to offer praise to the governor for and and to Marjorie and and to Marjorie for putting together for putting together a creative land deal where I think though that the focus ought to be uh ought to be directed uh is whether or not uh UH West Oahu down the road uh really makes sense for us, whether or not we ought to move ahead for it, whether the economy can support it, and whether it's a coherent educational endeavor. Those really I think are the are the questions that that that that need much more careful attention.

[00:40:50] Sumner La Croix: How can we be visionary and practical at the same time, Marjorie?

[00:40:54] Margery Bronster: Well, I think that this gives an opportunity for the university to start looking uh very seriously at the various planning uh projects and problems.

[00:41:03] Sumner La Croix: So it buys some time.

[00:41:04] Margery Bronster: That's correct. It buys some time and it gives the university an opportunity to look at at least a starting point um for the funding of this university.

[00:41:14] Sumner La Croix: Okay. Well, we've got uh our lines are are full and we're going to get to all of our callers uh as soon as we possibly can, but we've called um uh a fellow who's the student body president out at the University of Hawaii West Oahu. And uh I believe his name is James Nelligan. James, are you there?

[00:41:30] James Nelligan: Yes, I am.

[00:41:31] Sumner La Croix: Uh, James, just real briefly, could you share your thoughts uh on behalf of the students out at West Oahu about this issue?

[00:41:38] James Nelligan: Well, I think that uh the primary issue for us is that everybody is speaking of West Oahu as if it's a theory and that we need to realize that this is already a campus uh or essentially it's a it's a body of students and faculty without a campus.

[00:41:53] Sumner La Croix: In in search of a campus, right?

[00:41:54] James Nelligan: And uh if you've been to West Oahu, you know that uh all of our administration is three portables and we share classrooms with uh LCC. You know, I I hear many of the arguments um and uh you know, I've listened to the the show now and I hear people calling in from the Big Island and whatnot. I think that what we do need to focus on first off is that a university is not something that's built in a day. Uh it's a very long term issue. Yet uh universities uh or the concept of of of of building a better campus can die in a day in the legislature and whatnot.

[00:42:28] James Nelligan: So what we need to look at is what are the long term needs of the community and I think that anybody who takes a drive past Pearl City sees that the development specifically of the housing community of the young families are here. They're in Millilani, they're in Eva Beach, they're in Capole. I mean, these are the places where all of the development is occurring. So therefore, it makes sense that we put the campus where the children will be, I mean, and where uh the growth of the state is going to occur.

[00:42:58] James Nelligan: And I think that when we look at the university, it's far more than just a university. What it'll do for the Capole region, it'll bring in many businesses, uh it'll bring in foreign investment. There's so much available. And in in addition, it will probably help many areas such as places like Nanakuli and Waianae because what will happen in Waianae or uh in Capole is a well planned community will eventually reach out and find its way over to some of these areas which will create better health care, um uh better public services, which haven't been there for that side of the island. And if we just real briefly, if we if we look at places and I and I and I'm with the Caucus and I understand the issues of the Outer Islands, I think that time and time again we have to look that, you know, the population of West Oahu is greater than all the other islands combined and so is its growth. And it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money to develop a campus in a place where there isn't growth and where the industries are dying.

[00:43:56] Sumner La Croix: James, when are you running for governor? No, I'm just kidding. James, thank you. We we really appreciate that. Um, let's move on and and folks who've been waiting real patiently, I am going to get to you and I want to leave some time for Marjorie and Sumner and Bruce to uh comment on everything they've heard and and add anything that needs to be added. So very quickly, let's go to Brian on Oahu. Good morning, Brian.

[00:44:17] Brian: Uh, good morning.

[00:44:18] Sumner La Croix: What do you have for our guest this morning?

[00:44:20] Brian: Well, uh the problem I'm having is is the educational values of of this. I understand the economic values, how the building the university will raise land values and whatnot. But, you know, the educational question, I don't think is being addressed uh fully. If the the educational purpose of West Oahu is to have a four year undergraduate experience, uh we already have that over in Hilo. And for 10 or 20 million dollars, you could build a couple of more dormitories over there and and fulfill that need. Uh especially when the university is talking about vertical cuts, it seems that the West Oahu might be a very good vertical cut.

[00:44:58] Sumner La Croix: Okay, Brian. I I really appreciate your call and and I think, you know, Brian puts it in an interesting perspective because right now in the system, there is talk of so-called vertical cuts and I suppose everything is fairly on the table. Uh but that's why we're having this conversation right now, is trying to decide what which way to go. Uh Sumner?

[00:45:16] Sumner La Croix: I really thought that he put the issues uh quite nicely. The real issue is is not just economic development, it's also educational coherence. And the question that we really need to ask ourselves is, will we end up with two mediocre universities? If that's the case, I think that the state will be badly hurt, because it is really critical to maintain at least one high quality research university in the state. Marjorie, is is is it fair to say that that no one including you and the governor want two mediocre institutions? And doesn't that suggest that there is an expectation that the commitment to higher education in the future will be greater than it is right now?

[00:45:54] Margery Bronster: I think uh as it was pointed out, it's hard to um to think of West Oahu currently as a an ongoing university because it has no site. But it is important to realize that we are spending money on West Oahu and I think that that commitment is what there's an opportunity to continue.

[00:46:15] Sumner La Croix: Okay. And we're going to go to Bruce Bergland in in just a minute, but I want to take a couple more calls because these are folks who have been waiting a long time. Let's go to uh I think it's Diana in uh Haulu.

[00:46:24] Diana: Hi. Um, I'm calling from the California perspective, too, because I attended my children attended the um colleges and universities in California. And Governor Brown, Pat Brown um in the 1960s and 50s built the university system and a lot of them were um pulled together the way this one is being done. In other words, land was deeded or given or whatever by developers who were hoping to raise the value of uh surrounding lands often and very, very isolated and Okay, and based on your experience. livable and it helped pull the whole um state into affluence. It it helped make create the kind of state it was, but it was also done with very low tuition and to make it accessible in every way to every bit of the community. It was part of a whole idea.

[00:47:23] Sumner La Croix: So you felt it it it worked there and Yeah, but it had to be part of in other words you had to from every level at that time, California valued schools, the valued the high schools, the whole thing and just pumped its dreams and hopes into its school system and it made it so nobody who wanted to and who had the the effort in California couldn't go through school. Okay, Diana, I really appreciate your call.

[00:47:49] Margery Bronster: Well, I just wanted to say that, as you know, Governor Cayetano has put education really at the forefront and I think that he believes that this will be consistent with making Hawaii uh a very strong educational place.

[00:48:01] Sumner La Croix: Sumner? Okay. I'll move on to the caller, Ian from Waikiki. Good morning, Ian.

[00:48:08] Ian: Good morning.

[00:48:09] Sumner La Croix: Good morning. Thank you for waiting. You're on the air.

[00:48:12] Ian: Good. I I just wanted to point out that uh uh the we have a blatant example of the lack of planning and government waste in the example that uh Sand Island community college marine training center which cost a figure of around $9 million plus two and um the plan was to educate 30 or so persons a year for marine industrial uses. Well, I mean, there's no there's no work for all these people. And they're going to teach all that many people. There's nowhere for them to get any work and they'll have to leave the state. So I can't see the point in spending all this kind of money on a community college project and uh and it's just an example of what we what you're talking about, uh lack of planning and then something that has happened and it's only a year or so ago and I think it's a disgrace.

[00:49:06] Sumner La Croix: Okay, Ian, I I appreciate your call and I think I I heard Bruce Berglin hit the ceiling again. Uh Bruce, I was going to wait until a little bit later in the hour, but but why don't we give you a minute to to give us some concluding remarks and and I know the reference to West Oahu is a community college had to uh uh sound like fingernails on the blackboard to you. Bruce Bergland on line 6?

[00:49:27] Bruce Bergland: Sure. Um, well, I understand and and um unfortunately so many people don't know much about West Oahu. One of the points that that I want to emphasize and and it's a critical one is that West Oahu serves a different group of people. A group of people that aren't being served uh at the present time by Manoa or the community college. These are people that need and want four year degrees but who work full time, who have families, who need to go to school at night, who need to go to school on the weekends, etc. And West Oahu already is serving that population, albeit in in in in circumstances that are just greatly greatly limited, with a high quality teaching faculty, faculty that is doing an excellent job. And um I I think unfortunately too many people right now are uh and and I know Sumner is not really saying this, but but quality doesn't necessarily mean a research university. Um you can have very high quality instruction without being a research institution. And of course what would be developed if we were successful, if this goes through, we put ourselves in the position to take some time, as Sumner rightly says, to plan an institution that can do a superb job of delivering high quality instruction to that segment of the state, in addition to, as I said, possibly also using technology to deliver many of those services to the Outer Islands. And I think it's something we need to pay careful attention to.

[00:50:55] Sumner La Croix: So Bruce, what I what I think I heard you say is that while the planning has started, there's a lot of planning to be done, but this buys us some time.

[00:51:02] Bruce Bergland: Yeah, and just as as Marjorie said and and consistent with Sumner's point too. And I understand why people would be very nervous about making some kind of uh chisel in stone commitment to something before it's planned. That's a that's a pig in a poke kind of uh mentality and I and I'm against that also. However, given the circumstances, this could put us in a spot where we could finally make a commitment to the institution and planning and and the downside, if the worst happened, the downside as Marjorie has pointed out, isn't is still probably positive for the state in the long run.

[00:51:36] Sumner La Croix: Okay. Bruce, thanks a lot. We really appreciate you being available to us today. Sumner, do you have any reaction to that?

[00:51:42] Sumner La Croix: Well, I'm still concerned about the vision of West Oahu as essentially a university that just serves West Oahu. Um if for example West Oahu is constructed under that premise and the Manoa is upgraded to a higher quality research university, it raises its admission standards, uh then essentially we have West Oahu with lower admission standards uh serving the West Oahu area. Uh then one really has to ask, what about the high quality students in West Oahu? Well, they're still going to be taking the bus and driving to Manoa. And then we have to ask what about students of lower quality in East Honolulu? Well, those students are now going to be taking the bus uh out to West Oahu.

[00:52:22] Sumner La Croix: Are you turning this traffic argument against the governor here?

[00:52:25] Sumner La Croix: Well, all all I'm really trying to note is that is that I think this is one of the problems with the educational coherence of these arguments. So it is really critical to step back and take a close look at whether or not we want to set up a university in this state that really just serves part of what is still a pretty small island. And I I think it's worthwhile to contrast that with UC Irvine. UC Irvine is a major research university, that as a letter in the advertiser today indicates, has had Nobel Prize winners, and it takes applications from all over the state of California. It's very competitive to get in. It doesn't just serve uh students from the Irvine area. It it serves students state wide.

[00:53:01] Sumner La Croix: I think what I'm hearing from everyone is that there's a lot of additional planning to be done. Marjorie, I I think you would agree with that. Bruce has certainly said that, but your point is, let's buy some time to have that opportunity.

[00:53:14] Margery Bronster: Well buy some time and set up a funding mechanism which has never been there before. I think that in the past when we were talking about building a university on the 500 acres, there was no money available and it would all have to come out of current funds, bond funds, etc. This at least gives an opportunity for money and time to do those plans.

[00:53:34] Sumner La Croix: And Sumner on several occasions this morning, you've complimented the creative, innovative, you know, financing plan, it it is something new and different. It is something new and different. I I think that buying time is is is quite useful in this in this uh You're you're listening to pop radio.

[00:53:48] Sumner La Croix: The number or forget the number to call. Our lines have been full the whole time and they're full right now and I'm going to make a real effort in the last 10 minutes to get to everybody who's on the line. I don't know if we're going to do it or not, but I want to get to as many of them as I can and I want to give Sumner and Marjorie each an opportunity to to sum up their thoughts or to add something that needs to be added. Let's go to Mike in Manoa, on the Manoa campus. Good morning, Mike.

[00:54:11] Mike: Good morning, and by the way, the campus is empty, so if there's any West Oahuans who want to come and take some classes, we have a open apparatus ready to go. But uh, I think this is a real overreaching uh attempt by the uh state. And if they really want to get clever, and since there is a real budget shortfall, then why don't we um attempt to get us a uh free enterprise uh involved and have uh some bids from the mainland come in. Uh I know Maui is going about their Maui is trying to put in their own private uh university over there and it's going to work and uh would be a lot cheaper for the state to have uh a a private university be built uh in West Oahu if that's what West Oahu really wants as a university.

[00:54:58] Sumner La Croix: Okay. Mike, I I'm going to have to move on and I know you have some more to say, but I I want to give some others an opportunity to at least get their main thoughts out. Uh but I do appreciate you calling this morning. Let's go to Ernie in Pearl City. Good morning, Ernie.

[00:55:11] Ernie: Ernie, are you there? Yes, I'm here.

[00:55:13] Sumner La Croix: You're on the air.

[00:55:14] Ernie: I I have a question for Sumner. Um, you know, he talks a lot about the planning at the West Oahu, but the alternative is to expand the Manoa campus, and yet even today, Manoa is congested. It's uh parking spaces are uh severely constrained and open space is practically gone. I went to Manoa 20 years ago, Okay, and I felt like 20 years ago, I had a much better uh experience. Ernie, your question is, It's really serious yeah that uh Manoa can handle the level of undergraduate uh education because this is what we're talking about. Excellent question. Let's let's get let's get Sumner's reaction. I'm sorry to cut you off but I do have to move if we're going to give other folks an opportunity. Sumner.

[00:55:54] Sumner La Croix: I think that regardless of what we do with West Oahu, we certainly could use Manoa better. Um, the classrooms are not fully utilized. Uh, I think all you have to do is walk around campus after 3 o'clock and you can see many, many empty classrooms, there's many empty classrooms at night. Uh, one thing we we might want to consider if we want to spread out the load at Manoa uh during the day is some type of peak load tuition. You want to take classes during the prime time hours, you pay more than you do during other times. That would uh help people who have relatively low incomes get access to the university. The Manoa parking situation, it was it was clearly horrendous during the early 1980s and there were many people who became quite reluctant to go up to campus during business hours, but it's improved substantially with the construction of the second garage uh in the quarry area. Um it's very rare that that that that garage fills up and again, if access to Manoa is is is really the prime problem, building another garage on the upper campus area uh would essentially fulfill parking and access needs for a long, long time.

[00:56:51] Sumner La Croix: Okay. Let's go to Chris in Palolo. Good morning, Chris.

[00:56:54] Chris: Oh, hi. Yes. I just really have a comment to make. Nobody has yet answered the most important question.

[00:57:00] Speaker 1: which is where is the money going to come from to run the campus once it's built. Seems to me that without anybody being able to answer that question, and given that there don't appear to be any valid educational reasons for building it, it seems to be driven more by development than any educational reasons. We're being asked to buy a pig in a poke, basically.

[00:57:21] Speaker 2: Okay, Chris, I appreciate your comment. Let's go on to George in Manoa. George.

[00:57:26] George: Yes, hello.

[00:57:27] Speaker 2: Is this George Simpson?

[00:57:28] George: I guess so.

[00:57:30] Speaker 2: Professor of English at Manoa. What do you have for us today?

[00:57:32] George: Two points, real quick. Number one, double standard in the argument. When it comes to talking about West O'ahu, which should be West O'ahu college, incidentally, not university, when it comes to talking about West O'ahu, let's all be reasonable, long range, do the best thing. When it comes to Manoa, chop, chop, chop, chop. Double standard, and I wish Bronster and the governor would get off of that.

[00:57:53] George: Number two, a small point, but may maybe more critical than than one really understands. Walter Kupau took 30,000 $30 million out of First Hawaiian Bank. Jack Hoag is on the Board of Regents there. I think it's a message to Hoag, get on with West O'ahu or or you're in big trouble.

[00:58:11] Speaker 2: Thank you, George, appreciate your call. We go to Michelle in her car. Good morning, Michelle.

[00:58:16] Michelle: Hi, good morning. Um, I'm noticing that it seems to me that there is a lack of choice here. You can either drive to Kaniowi or you can drive to UA. There's nothing wrong with expanding the options that are available out on West O'ahu. It does have a limited degree program. You can choose what's there or you can choose to fight the traffic and come into town. But as far as expanding options, it's important to keep Hawaii's education important and a top priority and to keep our minds here.

[00:58:46] Michelle: I think that if there's more options available, you're more likely to have a higher retention rate. I personally left to go to college. I didn't think I could get what I wanted out of Manoa. I sat through a year of 200 and 400 people in each class, and one year was enough for me. U has 20 people in the class. It's a much better option.

[00:59:06] Speaker 2: Okay, Michelle, thank you very much for your call. Um, we're just not going to be able to get to everybody who's tried to get in this morning. We've got just four minutes left, and I want to give Sumner and Marjorie each an opportunity to say whatever it is that they would like to say, and, um, we'll go to Marjorie first.

[00:59:23] Margery Bronster: Well, I I wanted to thank everyone for their comments and their questions. I think that uh there is a lot of information uh that has been made available and I think that that's very useful to the debate. I would also like to say that when we were negotiating with Campbell Estate and trying to look at this, we were not trying to make decisions for what the university ought to be doing. We were focusing on positioning the state in the way that was the best possible in order to make uh the university at West O'ahu a possibility, um as opposed to determining exactly what students should be out there, what educational choices should be made.

[01:00:04] Margery Bronster: Those are all things that should be planned by the by the university. But I think that we believe that the uh transaction, the land exchange would give tremendous opportunities to the university and the state and that it is important in hard economic times or good ones to have a long-term view, and we believe that this gives us the opportunity to to take advantage of a long-term view.

[01:00:31] Speaker 2: Sumner?

[01:00:33] Sumner La Croix: I think that in considering this whole issue, we need to fundamentally address the question of excellence in in higher education. Access is extremely important, but access to uh uh a number of low-quality universities, colleges, and community colleges, um is going to leave people in the state with a crippled economic future. The critical questions that we really need to ask before we move forward are, can we afford to build, maintain, and operate a West O'ahu College? Are there better uses of the funds? Um, what are the alternatives that could possibly be done uh with the money that's generated uh by the land sales?

[01:01:18] Sumner La Croix: Uh, but most of all, I think we need to focus on maintaining not just access to the University of Hawaii system, but also maintaining excellence in the system. And I think that's going to require a lot more planning before we really move ahead and and pour concrete out in West O'ahu.

[01:01:32] Speaker 2: Okay, and Marjorie?

[01:01:47] Margery Bronster: I think that, um, having that opportunity to have more time to plan, I think is very important, and I think that there'll be a lot of work that will need to be done uh as soon as this transaction is is approved uh in order to make all of it a reality.

[01:01:49] Speaker 2: Had to roll up our sleeves and get to work, huh? Okay. Well, I want to thank my guests, Marjorie Bronster, the Attorney General, who together with Earl Onzai has been a point person for the governor in working out this proposal, Sumner Lacroy, who is a professor of Economics at the University of Hawaii, Manoa, and Bruce Bergland, who is the executive vice-chancellor out at the University of Hawaii, West O'ahu. Our producer is Suzy Roth, our technician this morning was Philip Hutchinson. Uh, next week, we invite you to tune in when we're going to be talking talking about environmental regulation or over-regulation depending upon your point of view.

[01:02:24] Speaker 2: We're going to have Paul Achev who is with the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund, Lisa Munger who is a practicing attorney who represents a number of of larger companies, and Cheryl Okuma Sepay, who is the head of Wastewater with the City and County of Honolulu. I think you're going to find it a very interesting conversation. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.