Niihau and the Robinson Family
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-04-19
Guests: Keith Robinson (co-owner, island of Niihau)
Duration: 1:05:07

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: This is Randy Roth, host of The Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on UAA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings, beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our sponsor, the Hawaii Community Foundation, is one of the oldest and largest community foundations in the country. It's been earning the people of Hawaii's trust for more than 80 years, and in the past 10 years alone, has distributed nearly $80 million in support of local charitable causes in areas such as education, health, human services, culture and the arts, and community development.

[00:01:06] Randall Roth: Today's show has to do with the Robinson family that owns the island of Niihau. It's been in the news in the last couple of days. Two days ago, in the Honolulu Star Bulletin, the headline says, Robinson's may sell Niihau, leave Hawaii. Yesterday in the Advertiser, the headline was, Niihau operations almost cease. A lot of people in this community are very interested in and concerned about what goes on on the island of Niihau, and I think interested in the Robinson family which, for about 134 years, has owned that island. We caught up with Keith Robinson, who is a member of that family, and talked to him for about 30 minutes. We talked to him yesterday, recorded the conversation.

[00:02:12] Randall Roth: He said a number of provocative things that I think are going to touch a nerve or two. I think some of you listeners will like what you hear, some of you I know will not. What we're going to do is listen to that conversation and then open the floor for comments, and like I say, you're going to hear a number of provocative statements. With that, we go to our conversation which was recorded yesterday between me and Keith Robinson of the Robinson family that owns the island of Niihau. Keith, as I understand it, your family has owned the island of Niihau for about 134 years. How did the family come to own the island in the first place?

[00:03:05] Keith Robinson: Well, they originally left Scotland because there was too much drinking in Scotland, and they went out to New Zealand, got there around the 1830s, and then things turned bad in New Zealand. There was a, an internal division in the family and there was also a war with the Maoris. Unfortunately, the family had friends on both sides of that. They were British and they also had real good relations with the Maoris. And it's hard to be friends with people who are trying to kill each other. I mean, what I mean is as they say we had friends on both sides of that fence and it put us in an awkward position and so eventually, because of that and the internal family split, they decided to take off and go hunting for an island of their own.

[00:03:45] Keith Robinson: They traveled as far up as Vancouver, passed up a chance to buy the place, and eventually came back here and picked up Niihau.

[00:03:58] Randall Roth: And was the idea from the very beginning to use it for ranching or for agricultural purposes?

[00:04:11] Keith Robinson: I believe so, yes, and that was very unfortunate. It was, we now realize that Niihau was too dry to be really suitable for a ranching operation, but at the time it was purchased, we, it had just been through a couple of very green years and there was water everywhere, grass everywhere.

[00:04:25] Randall Roth: Now, in in a minute I'm going to ask you about some recent business decisions that have been made, but during that 134 years up to just the last couple of months, what was the extent of development on the island of Niihau?

[00:04:38] Keith Robinson: Well, it's been very very minimal. Now, again, Niihau is a very harsh climate, and, uh, man's structures don't survive too well over there. For instance, we were deeply involved in the atomic test program back in the 50s, the so-called teaken orange tests that helped to establish the distant early warning line, and today no no trace of that remains practically. I mean, man's structures just don't do too well there.

[00:05:18] Randall Roth: Now, according to the newspaper, in just the last couple of months, you've shut down the ranching operation on Niihau, you've shut down the charcoal manufacturing operation, and you're in the process of selling the helicopter that you've used not just for emergency medical purposes, but also to run a small hunting operation on Niihau. What's going on?

[00:05:31] Keith Robinson: Well, uh, basically, the money ran out. Uh, we've been running Niihau at a loss for many decades and, uh, subsidizing the losses from income elsewhere, and, uh, basically the money just gradually ran out and, uh, things got real bad in the mid-90s, early to middle 90s. We weren't able to pay men, we weren't able to buy equipment, get fuel, things like this. It was becoming a real pinch. It was an absolute disaster and it just intensified through the early to middle to late 90s, and, uh, at this point, the worst part of it that really scares me is this business of having to sell the medivac helicopter. We're, we see no other choice at this point, but that could potentially put people's lives in danger.

[00:05:57] Keith Robinson: That helicopter saved a number of lives.

[00:06:11] Randall Roth: Now, as I understand it, you're shutting down the businesses on the island of Niihau and you're engaging in what almost seems like a fire sale trying to generate some cash. And according to the newspaper, a major reason for that is that you've got an estate tax bill that has to be paid?

[00:06:24] Keith Robinson: Yes, yes. And it just hasn't been completely paid off. Uh, we made a miscalculation there. We, uh, we supported the Niihau operation far longer than we should have thinking that the money to pay the taxes would be there when needed, and we only gradually and dimly became aware that, but our family financial survival plan wasn't going to work. It was a progressive revelation and a gradual one and I might add a most unpleasant one. Most unpleasant discovery.

[00:06:50] Randall Roth: The article in the in the Star Bulletin had a headline, Robinson's may sell Niihau, leave Hawaii.

[00:07:04] Keith Robinson: They did?

[00:07:17] Randall Roth: That's what the headline in the Star Bulletin said.

[00:07:30] Keith Robinson: Okay, I have not seen that article, I have only heard of it.

[00:07:43] Randall Roth: And I know from talking to you that at least so far as the sale of Niihau is concerned, you have some strong feelings about that. What are they?

[00:07:57] Keith Robinson: Well, uh, we're we remain in it for the long haul if possible. Uh, nobody can tell in this highly unsettled world, how long a long haul is anymore, but, uh, the sale of Niihau has has never been discussed as an actual concrete proposal, uh, in this particular case.

[00:08:10] Randall Roth: So you're saying the absolute last thing to go would be Niihau.

[00:08:23] Keith Robinson: I wouldn't say the absolute last thing. There might be a couple of family houses and things like that, but, uh, that might survive longer, but, yes, uh, Niihau would be, uh, uh pretty far down the line, I think.

[00:08:36] Randall Roth: And why is that? If the climate and the terrain are such that it's not going to enable you to run a business there, at least agriculture or a ranching business that's going to make a living, what is your commitment to hanging on to that island all about?

[00:08:50] Keith Robinson: Stubbornness and stupidity, I guess. Well, there was one other thing. And this is the first time in 130 years that it's been mentioned outside of the family. And I don't want it to get twisted around by activists, okay?

[00:09:16] Randall Roth: We'll we'll let you tell us what it is.

[00:09:30] Keith Robinson: There was an old family tradition. It was never mentioned by anybody else but it came down through the family. The king had already finished making the sale of Niihau to our family. Excuse me, and he said, he looked up and it was already done. It was a done deal. We were the owners of Niihau. I want to make that very clear. It was already a done deal. Am I making that clear to you?

[00:09:43] Randall Roth: Yes.

[00:09:56] Keith Robinson: Okay. According to the our ancestors who told us these things, he looked up from the table and he said, Niihau is now yours. Or most of it was. We had to buy up a couple other land holdings besides his, but by then the majority was ours at that point. He said the people who live there will work for you and serve you, the native Hawaiians. And then he added very quietly, our people are beginning to die off in this land now. And he said, we are no longer as strong as we once were, and the day may come when the Hawaiians are very weak in this land. And he said, if and when that day comes, please do the best you can for them. That's all that he said, okay? And our ancestors quietly replied they would see what they could do, but there were no hard and fast promises, okay?

[00:10:49] Randall Roth: Your family for many generations has acted as stewards and at least so far as I can see have looked at this as as not just a commitment but almost a sacred commitment on your part.

[00:11:02] Keith Robinson: Well, oh boy. I don't know. Uh, we have strong feelings about it, okay? We were strong monarchy supporters, uh, at the time of the revolution. We defied the provisional, we quietly defied the provisional government on a number of things and there was a bad feeling, uh, both about that and about some other things between us and, for instance, the Dole family. And, uh, so, uh, I don't know, it was, uh, we just, we, uh, we think the Hawaiians got a raw deal and we've tried to help them out wherever we could. If if you look around on the enterprises that we have, uh, you'll I think see that like in the sugar plantations and the rest of our businesses, I think you'll see a disproportionate number of Hawaiian employees and the rest that aren't are other non-Caucasian so-called locals.

[00:11:55] Keith Robinson: I'm not saying that we discriminate against other races, but, uh, we've always tried to give the local people some, uh, support and especially the Hawaiians.

[00:12:09] Randall Roth: And despite the business problems, uh, Niihau is not for sale?

[00:12:22] Keith Robinson: Flatly, no.

[00:12:35] Randall Roth: And there's not a plan to put it up for sale?

[00:12:48] Keith Robinson: At this time, no. And I'm not being cagey with you when I say that, uh, when I'm qualifying that at this time, I mean, if we have a nuclear war tomorrow or something like that or an asteroid hits the earth, uh, it might change everything. But, uh, uh, uh, at this particular time, no. But again, let's be very blunt. There are two great rumors that never die in the western world. One is that, uh, one is passed around the news media all the time and, uh, the other is passed around among rock and rollers, and the one is that, uh, Niihau is, uh, uh is is for sale and the other one is that Elvis Presley is alive.

[00:13:15] Keith Robinson: So, I mean, uh, uh, this this rumor will probably never die.

[00:13:28] Randall Roth: Now, you've had business losses and I guess with respect to the ranching operation on Niihau, it's in large part related to the the arid climate and the terrain, but according to the newspaper very rough conditions. Yes. Rough topography. According to the newspaper articles, you've had business losses not just on Niihau and you feel that at least some of the explanation for those losses can be traced directly to state government in Hawaii.

[00:13:55] Keith Robinson: Well, now you have to go back about 40 years or so. Uh, the last generation of the family, the people who uh who taught my brother and myself and so forth, before they passed on, they warned us that now, see, the Democrats had just taken over the legislature and the government here, okay? And, uh, they were setting out to change everything. And the old timers warned us very specifically that ultimately, uh, the, uh, the government, uh, the policies, the new policies that were being implemented by the new ruling machine, would destroy the economy, would have a severe adverse effect on the economy. We were specifically warned of this. And it was also told to us that the estate taxes, then, we might not be able to survive just on the commercial income, the agricultural income. It might not be uh sufficient to pay the estate taxes and keep ourselves in business, both.

[00:14:48] Keith Robinson: And this was a very good idea because this land was on the North Shore of Kauai, which had just been swept, you won't remember this, but uh there had been uh two big tidal waves, one in 46 and one in 57. And, uh, I was uh a little too young for the 46 one and I was in the mountains on the 57 one, but uh and I I've been involved in a number of other tidal wave scares and believe me, there's nothing like a feeling of terror in the middle of the night when you're working uh on a low-lying shoreline with the sirens wailing in the distance and you're desperately trying to get the livestock and everything else out of there.

[00:15:14] Keith Robinson: So my father said, someday he felt that the government would require that all buildings, especially on the North Shore, wherever possible, would be built out of the tsunami inundation zone. Therefore, our higher land, which was out of the tsunami inundation zone, would be ideal for this kind of thing. Dad said, keep the crops and the livestock down on the flats. You can always uh usually drive the livestock to higher ground. The crops are expendable under those conditions but the houses and the people are not. Keep them on the higher ground. He said someday this would uh probably be law, he thought.

[00:15:54] Randall Roth: And let me make sure I've I've got this right. We're talking about 4500 acres on the North Shore of Kauai. Yes. And specifically, we're talking about acreage that is outside the tsunami inundation zones. Very little of it. Relatively little of it is in the tsunami inundation zone. That is correct. And the plan was that you would buy this, hang on to it, and then down the road when there were big estate tax bills because Or business losses due to an adverse climate. We were uh we were warned that the economy would be destroyed. Okay. So when both things are happening now, you've got some business setbacks and because of the death of a family member, you've got a large estate tax bill. In theory at least, now you sell that land to get the cash necessary to keep the businesses going and to pay the taxes, but that's not working. Why?

[00:16:34] Keith Robinson: Well, uh the Land Use Commission back around the mid-late 60s or early 70s, rezoned that to conservation. And we uh we didn't really realize what impact that would have at that time. And, uh, once you have it in conservation, uh you've essentially destroyed the value of it for residential housing. You can't get any uh appreciable amount of residential housing on it. So as a result of the Land Use Commission action, uh which was highly uh discriminatory incidentally. Everyone around us was uh given uh uh zoning that enabled them uh to uh develop their property, but, uh the, uh the conservation district is our property line. There's some places right across from the property line where it's uh, um, where it's R4, that's urban density.

[00:17:27] Keith Robinson: Uh, so anyhow, uh, we were essentially forbidden to uh develop and, uh, so, uh, the, uh, the residential uh value of that land was just ruined. And it was too bad because this land was not usable for agriculture or anything else. It was really not that good.

[00:17:53] Randall Roth: So as I understand what you've just said and and combined with what was in the newspaper, this is land that's ideal for development in the sense that it's outside the tsunami inundation zone. It has views and available water, it's accessible. Uh it isn't a habitat for endangered species And it has almost no native vegetation on it. And yet it's been designated conservation which, in your words is is destroyed its its value and yet the low-lying land that's in the tsunami inundation zone, that has been zoned for residential construction and heavily developed. Can you beat that, only in Hawaii? I mean, the out at Hainai flats uh where it was under 45 ft of water in in the late middle 40s uh they built it all up R4, and yet our our property, which would be the sensible place to put the houses, uh no houses.

[00:18:20] Keith Robinson: What, I I just shake my head.

[00:18:33] Randall Roth: Now, only in Hawaii. As I understand it, in addition to your concerns about what the Land Use Commission did some years ago and what you feel is a practical inability to reverse that now, I'm told that when you're running your ranching or your agricultural business that your supervisors spend as much time filling out papers and complying with regulations as they do actually working. Is that right?

[00:18:46] Keith Robinson: My brother ran an unofficial estimate a couple of years back on the uh the Gaine Robinson supervisors the time they spent uh complying with federal uh with government regs, not just federal regs, but government regulations and filling out uh government mandated forms and complying with government are rules and all that yes and he came up with an estimate that it was a rough estimate but probably fairly accurate that uh these G&Rs, Gain Robinson's supervisory force was uh spending about 50% of its time uh complying with government regulations or filling out forms. Yes, that's an enormous loss in productivity.

[00:19:17] Randall Roth: In case you tuned in late, this is the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and you're listening to a conversation that I had yesterday with Keith Robinson, a member of the family that has owned the island of Niihau for 134 years. Already you've heard some provocative statements, you're going to hear some more. I want to be sure to give an opportunity to those who don't like what they've heard or will be hearing as well as those who who do to voice their own thoughts. We're going to conclude this conversation in a bit. Those of you who would like to get in line to make a comment after you've heard the entire conversation, our phone number is 955-8821 or if you're calling from a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821.

[00:20:08] Randall Roth: We've got another 15 minutes or so of conversation. We're going to play it right now but then we'll hear comments of listeners. Again, if you'd like to get in line, the number is 955-8821 and with that, we go back to the conversation that was recorded yesterday with Keith Robinson. in the advertiser article, you're quoted as saying Hawaii is being governed by a bunch of power mad taxaholics whose political philosophy is part Karl Marx and part Marie Antoinette. Did you say that?

[00:20:42] Keith Robinson: Yes. I'm I guess I'm a bit of a curmudgeon and I was I was feeling grumpy and I was sicker in a dog but I stand by the statement. These people uh have no idea of really what's going on in the real world.

[00:21:16] Randall Roth: Well and the reason that I I restated is that I want to ask you the question, are you optimistic that that will change?

[00:21:33] Keith Robinson: No. No absolutely not. That's why we're considering uh getting out of Hawaii. Uh transferring a lot of our operations. Why my brother and I are thinking of that. You have to understand now, it takes anywhere at least usually from about 10 years for government uh new programs, new laws, new court new court decisions to take a full effect and reach the full destructive potential in a society or in our society. It takes about 10 years. So in other words, the economic mess we are seeing right now, uh if the degradation of our economy is as a result of things that happened 10 years ago. Now, in our case, it was even longer. We were able to stave off the baneful effects thanks to Bruce's magnificent management in the face of almost insurmountable odds. Uh he was able to stave off uh this uh this crippling by the land use commission. This this thing that they did to us way back in the 60s and 70s downzoning our land to conservation.

[00:22:41] Randall Roth: And Bruce is your brother?

[00:22:58] Keith Robinson: Yeah and uh he uh he was able actually to uh keep the wolf from the door for uh for nearly 30 years. But, eventually it catches up. And uh so we believe that at this point we haven't even begun to see uh what's happened in the last 10 years. Right now, we're muddling around in a messy economy and uh yes, it's it's uh 30,000 jobs have gone out of the way in the last few years and all that, but we don't really think that the the uh, we don't really think that this may have begun to sing yet.

[00:23:49] Randall Roth: And so here, while we're trying to attract new capital to Hawaii, the Robinson family is thinking of maybe taking its capital elsewhere. And I guess, according to the newspaper article, you're specifically concerned about Moody's recent downgrading of the state's credit standing.

[00:24:06] Keith Robinson: Yes, uh if you'll check into uh the financial community all over the world, that's that's like a vitally important credit rating and credit ratings are like individual thing. They're based on individual behavior and responsibility. Except this is the collective behavior of nations and uh states. And uh once uh once your uh bond rating or your credit rating uh I don't care if it's it with the IMF or Moody's or anything else uh starts to slip and the world's financial community perceives that you're not being responsible or managing your fiscal affairs well uh at that point you risk a wholesale flight of capital. Now, Bruce and I uh when we were desperately trying to market this conservation land so we could take pay our tax bills, we uh we tried firms from here to Wall Street. I mean, we were going around begging for people to take this land off our hands.

[00:24:57] Keith Robinson: And they just they just looked at us and said are you crazy? Uh Hawaii's got a terrible reputation and there's no way we're going to invest in Hawaii. Uh get out of here. And just uh we we came to realize that uh Hawaii, in economic terms, has uh has the same uh today in in the uh national economic circles, financial circles, and international circles, it's got the same reputation that a uh 19th-century leper colony used to have. No one wants to touch it. We couldn't we were begging people to buy our land. We for years we couldn't get it.

[00:25:31] Randall Roth: As I understand it, you or your family uh are very much involved in raising endangered plants.

[00:25:48] Keith Robinson: Uh yeah. That's primarily me because well Bruce is uh so overworked and other things. Yeah. So I uh I've got a an endangered species wildlife preserve. Yeah.

[00:26:05] Randall Roth: And I'm also told that the Sierra Club, legal defense fund, or other environmental organizations have not exactly been your favorite organizations.

[00:26:22] Keith Robinson: Oh they hate me and I hate them. Uh I can't stand those people. I I frankly think that they're lying to the public and uh on top of that, I think they're uh uh misusing the endangered species issue to get money and power, uh power over other people. Um I I stay strictly away from them in my work.

[00:26:39] Randall Roth: So you're attempting to um be a steward of the environment and specifically trying to raise these endangered plants as best you can.

[00:26:56] Keith Robinson: Yeah. Um and actually, I've had a lot of success and it uh you have to understand that that people in the private sector uh have to use common sense. Uh they can't afford to be politically correct and uh so they've got to uh to look reality in the face and recognize it and go with reality. And uh uh uh well, I'll give you one illustration that just shows the enormous uh incompetence and waste and inefficiency in government and I don't want to uh mention this particular species. It's a very famous and well-known one. And uh but I just don't want to embarrass people because it it would look very strange uh to the public uh and they would know who was who was involved.

[00:27:30] Keith Robinson: But there was one uh very well known endangered Hawaiian species that the government went out and spent about $25,000 uh trying to protect about seven plants in one gene pool. And uh they spent about $25,000 and today there's uh one half-dead plant left there. It was a complete failure. In the meantime, I went in during that same time period and spent uh $250 and uh today I've got those plants all over my reserve and not just seven, I've got 15 and 60. Mass producing them. So uh they uh they spent $25,000 and uh failed and I spent $250 and succeeded. Um same thing came down with Bruce on Niihau. A few years ago, the Navy wanted a uh him to build a small thing over there. So Bruce said well a small house for the radars.

[00:29:29] Keith Robinson: So Bruce said okay. Uh but it since we're the uh uh occupants of Niihau, we want to do the work ourselves, keep the jobs for the uh Niihau people. Don't let any outside contractors in into it. Navy wasn't too happy but the nasty old Robinsons prevailed and so uh it was a sole-source deal and we got the contract and we built the house. And Bruce did a nice job. The Navy was real pleased. He charged them 25 grand for the job, $25,000. Navy was so pleased they wanted him to him and his Niihau men to come over and uh build another one and uh same plan and everything over on Kauai. But this time it was open uh to outside bidding.

[00:30:37] Keith Robinson: And uh Bruce and his men were not licensed contractors and so forth and nominally and it had to be open for other bidding and so it they just fell by the wayside. The end result was that that building built to the same specs on Kauai as the one on Niihau cost the military 850 grand.

[00:31:11] Randall Roth: Oh my goodness.

[00:31:28] Keith Robinson: And the roof was badly done and that at the last it had to be torn off and re uh that was another 150 grand. So that so on Niihau, Bruce and his men uh built it for about 25 grand and outside they uh built it for about a million. Oh dear, I can prove I was somewhere else when it happened. Whatever it was. She said several times that the Robinsons have done very well by the Hawaiians on Niihau. How important is it to the state of Hawaii or to the Hawaiian community or to you and me, how important is it that Niihau stay as it is at least so far as the 180 or so Hawaiians who live there is concerned?

[00:32:02] Keith Robinson: Well, I really don't know. I can't give you an answer on that. Uh I I just don't know. Uh you have to understand though putting it in a wider in things in a wider context. Uh, uh we uh we use Niihau, uh we use various portions of our our properties for various purposes. Now, on Niihau, we uh have the uh last intact shoreline or relatively intact shoreline ecosystem in Hawaii. All the other islands uh are technically public uh owned and uh they've been thoroughly trashed. considering uh That's why we're considering uh uh fish all over the place, monk seals lying all over, uh stuff like that. Um breeding uh breeding stuff sustaining population monk seals and all that.

[00:33:27] Keith Robinson: So Niihau is for a shoreline ecosystem preservation thing. Then we also uh give the uh the Niihau Hawaiians, the Hawaiians there the uh people there the the equivalent, shall we say, of cultural asylum, if you want to call it that. And then uh we also uh on the side, uh since Niihau is a private place and prying eyes can't get in there too much, we've we've done some uh very secret national defense stuff in the past. And uh we continue to help the national defense effort and there's some hilarious stories I could tell you about some of those things. Uh but uh some of that is also classified, not all by any means, but uh then in the Kauai uplands, uh we uh since Niihau has been pretty well wrecked by uh grazing animals and it's a low hot island uh on on the Kauai uplands, we uh try to take care of forest ecosystems and endangered native species in our Kauai uplands.

[00:34:35] Keith Robinson: So we have a little and, of course, there's the issue of the sugar and the cattle and so forth. So there, these various holdings that are used for other collateral things also than just making money. Um it's just, you know, it it seemed more prudent.

[00:35:09] Randall Roth: Keith, you and the Robinson family in general, I think, could be described as as wealthy people, when you add up the specific assets that you own and you get an appraisal as to what they could sell for. And yet, you and your family don't seem to have lived a life focused on wealth and consumption. Tell me just a little bit about your philosophy and the family philosophy so far as your ownership of all this land is concerned.

[00:35:43] Keith Robinson: Our branch of the family, our particular branch of the family leads a very Spartan existence. I'm not going to say that the others lead an opulent existence, but uh they don't have to take care of places like Niihau and so forth. Uh our our bunch uh uh leads what I would describe as a very Spartan existence. Uh that's just that's just the way it has to be. Uh we we operate on a shoestring because we're being constantly bled down by taxes and uh and by uh uh the costs associated with doing business, uh you know, government-mandated business costs.

[00:36:17] Randall Roth: This conversation is being recorded on a Saturday for replay during our Sunday show. You indicated that um you would love to participate in this show live, but that your beliefs prevent you from doing so on a Sunday. And you also told me a little story about when you were in the Army and enjoyed target shooting.

[00:37:08] Keith Robinson: Yeah.

[00:37:25] Randall Roth: Tell me again, uh about that.

[00:37:43] Keith Robinson: Well, there was a time when I was one of the nation's top target riflemen and uh uh uh Bruce was probably as good or better than me, but uh he never was in the military due to his asthma. Uh so uh uh basically, uh I love to shoot and I was invited to uh join the US Army of the Pacific Rifle team. Uh in 1968, I was the number one man on the team that took national third place in the uh national guard postal matches small board competitions and uh my score then was exactly equal to the uh score of the team that the average score of the team that won the national championship, so eventually I was invited to shoot with uh

[00:39:16] Keith Robinson: uh with the uh US Army of the Pacific rifle team when I was on active duty and it would have been real nice, but I mean I would have avoided a lot of KP and guard duty and you get just free ammunition and you sit around on the range all day and shoot at paper targets, it's it's a great life. I love it. But uh unfortunately half of the uh matches, the uh the anny site matches, the telescopic rifle site matches are fired on Sunday and our forefathers told us to uh to respect the uh the Sabbath day, to obey the uh and and they said uh they said that if uh God uh if we respected God's commandments, God would respect us someday. And it came back one time. It came back in a big way. One time I uh years later, I I got caught in a hurricane at sea where I had absolute absolutely no business surviving, and uh when it was all over, I was uh out of 24 boats that were still in Port Allen Harbor uh I was

[00:43:04] Keith Robinson: next morning I was the only boat still afloat. I shouldn't have survived. But I did.

[00:44:20] Randall Roth: Is there anything that you'd like to add about any of the topics that we've been discussing or anything that we didn't discuss, anything you'd like to share with other people?

[00:45:36] Keith Robinson: No, uh not really. Uh I think that if if anyone wants to stop and think about it, I think that we as a nation are going to have to uh realize that we cannot continue with the mentality and the moral standards of a welfare state. Uh this is what led to the decline and fall of ancient Rome and I think it will destroy us in the long run. I don't mean to be too preachy, but I think that we as a nation and as a people should uh should look deeply into our personal morals and our acceptance, our quiet acceptance of things that aren't particularly uh too good and the uh and the evils they cause in our society, and I I think that perhaps we should uh mend our ways accordingly, or someday we may go the way of ancient Rome. But that's just a personal observation.

[00:46:52] Randall Roth: Keith, we've not met face-to-face. I've talked to you now on the phone twice, and um I want to thank you for being with us on the radio, but especially for the stewardship that you and your family have uh shown so far as the island of Ni'ihau and the Hawaiian inhabitants of that island, and um just everything that you've given to the state of Hawaii and and especially Well no, thank you. I appreciate the compliment, but

[00:48:08] Keith Robinson: But remember, a lot of this is just basic common sense. Uh we have to leave a reasonably intact world for the next generations. That means we don't uh plunder it too much in our own time. We try to use it wisely and so forth and be a little careful. Uh thanks for the compliment about the stewardship but you know, uh we're not looking for praise on this. We just we just think that there's an element of common sense involved.

[00:49:24] Randall Roth: Well, let's start the common sense party and uh run you for office. What do you think?

[00:50:40] Keith Robinson: I'd be miserable. I hate politics. I think politics stinks. But thanks anyhow. Keith, take care of that cold and thank you again for participating this morning. Thank you very much, but I think I'll take care of me, the heck with the cold. Okay, good luck to you. Thanks, Lillian. Okay. Bye-bye.

[00:51:56] Randall Roth: In case you tuned in late, this is Randy Roth and the Price of Paradise radio show and you've been listening to a conversation that was recorded yesterday. I caught up with Keith Robinson of the Robinson family that has owned the island of Ni'ihau for 134 years. If you'd like to make a comment, uh Keith said a lot of things that are really quite provocative, and I'm sure there are some folks out there that agree with many of them, and I know there are some folks who disagree with them, and we really want to give an opportunity to everyone who feels strongly about what they've been listening to to make a comment. And we're going to try to keep these comments short so we can hear from a lot of different people. Our phone number is 955-8821. That's if you're on Oahu. On a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. Again, you've been listening to a conversation that was recorded yesterday with Keith Robinson, a member of the Robinson family, and they own other things, of course, but we at least started the conversation focusing on their ownership of the island of Ni'ihau. Let's start with Tim from Honolulu. Good morning, Tim.

[00:53:12] Speaker Tim: Good morning. Um I just wanted to uh make several comments and support of Mr. Robinson and his views. Um I think that I think that the the ethics that Keith and the Robinson family um have expressed on your show are ethics that would be shared by a number of large property owners and wealthy individuals or families if they were allowed to do so. And what I mean by allowed to do so is if their survival didn't require them to act in ways that a good portion of society deems as selfish, I think that um that a lot more um large entities and wealthy individuals and families would act the way the Robinsons have been acting and the fact that the Robinsons are in the problems they're in right now, um to me is evidence of or to me supports what I'm saying. Other other large entities and wealthy families have acted other than the way the Robinsons act because they've seen the writing on the wall and they've said, 'Hey, we're not going to survive if we don't um act in certain ways.' The Robinsons have chose to do otherwise and now they're faced with the same problems that every large family um of wealth or every large private organization of wealth is faced with. Okay. Tim, thank you for your comment. Appreciate it.

[00:54:28] Keith Robinson: And I have one other comment, and that is that he talked about, you guys discussed the issue of um attempting to bring capital to the state of Hawaii, um and they were discussing the possibility of taking their capital and going elsewhere. Um one of the issues that you guys didn't touch on is the issue of intellectual capital. And the the powers that be in this state, which are basically run by unions, are by nature anti-intellectual capital. Um and until the state until the people in this state focus on the issue of the creation of value in our economy, um and that creation of value comes from intellectual capital, as much as it does from financial capital. And until an environment is created here by us, the people because we're the ones responsible because we got the right to vote these guys in or out, um our economy is going to continue to exist as an animal that's uh basically devouring its own extremities in an attempt to stay alive.

[00:55:44] Randall Roth: Tim, I really appreciate your comments this morning. Bye-bye. We go to Anne from Nu'uanu. Good morning, Anne. Good morning. That's the most fascinating talk I've heard on the radio in a long time. Wasn't that interesting? Keith Robinson a fascinating, I think tonight I'm going to listen and try to tape it. Um, I want to contrast something he said with something that was in the Star Bulletin advertiser article a couple was a couple days ago. Uh two days ago for the one and yesterday for the other. Yeah. He said uh he deployed the welfare state, um and we all know Hawaii is the number one socialist society in the world now. Uh, easy to get a hand out here and a lot of people take it. Uh in the article in the Star Bulletin they said that the people in Ni'ihau were some of the highest welfare subsidized people there are in Hawaii. So which is the truth? Is he Are they heavily subsidized by welfare? And if so, why is he saying the welfare welfare state is bad, which I think is bad too. Well, I can't answer for Keith but I can tell you that he's concerned that the Ni'ihau ranching operation used to provide jobs for many of the Hawaiians living on Ni'ihau and now it doesn't provide any of those jobs and I think his comment in the newspaper that many of them are on welfare didn't necessarily suggest that he thought that was in the long run a good thing. I think he was simply commenting on the situation as it exists. Okay, one asset, great asset they have over there are those little shells that they make their necklaces and jewelry out of. Uh, can they not go into more of that because that's the only place those little Ni'ihau shells are and those are very expensive uh items. Okay. Things like that. Let's take that as a comment. Thank you, Anne. In case you tuned in late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name's Randy Roth, and for the first 34 minutes of the hour, we heard a conversation that was recorded yesterday with Keith Robinson of the Robinson family that has owned the island of Ni'ihau for 134 years. We're taking comments now from anyone who would like to share their thoughts, whether you agree or disagree with what you've been listening to. The number's 955-8821, or from a neighbor island, 1-800-955-8821. Well, I've asked our producer, Susie Roth to give David Cowley's a call. David is a a colleague of mine at the Law School, specializes in matters having to do with land use. David, are you there? I'm here. Uh you heard the conversation with Keith Robinson? Yes, I did. Well, for those who tuned in late, very briefly, the Robinson family many years ago bought 4,500 acres of land on the the the north shore of Kauai. Their plan was to hang on to it until they needed some money. They knew that someday they would need money for estate taxes when members of the family would die, and also they thought that perhaps there would be a time when the economy would not be so good. They thought that some seeds of destruction were sown back in the the the 60s with some of the things that government was doing. And so the idea was to hang on to this land until they needed the money for business purposes or to pay estate taxes, then they would sell the land and they would be able to maintain their operation including the island of Ni'ihau as it's been held for the last 134 years. But he explained to us that his land, which as he described it, is ideally suited for development, was listed as conservation, so he can't develop it and in in his words, it just destroyed the value completely and then he proceeded to explain that the land lower that's in the tsunami inundation zone, which was 45 ft underwater during a tsunami in the 1940s, that that has not only been classified for residential development, but has actually been developed. There are people living down there. You're the land use expert, what do you make of all that? Well, of course, the Land Use Commission has its general duty, uh the the nine member commission, appointed commission to divide all the land in the state into four districts and one of those is conservation and another one of those is urban. Um land suitable for development is supposed to be classified urban and then it's up to the counties to decide whether or not to grant permits for development. Land that is in watershed, that's state land, largely public land, land that has special values uh to the state, the land use commission then identifies and classifies as conservation, usually after a petition, sometimes under its own under its own power. And then that land is governed by the Department of Land and Natural Resources um and anybody wanting a permit to do anything with that land if it's private land then needs to go to the land board and get what is called a conditional use permit uh to do something on the land. Uh Mr. Robinson is accurate that once the land is classified conservation, it's virtually impossible to do anything economic with it, um except occasionally for grazing and things like that. Under relatively new land board regulations, the land is supposed to be largely development free. If it's private land, of course, that raises a problem. If if you can't graze it or do one or two of the the very few economic things you can do with land, then if you can't do anything with it, it's a taking of property into the fifth Amendment, uh because the owner has to do something, be able to do something economic with his or her land. But if he can do something, even if it generates a tiny amount of income, that that's not a taking? Well, it's it's got to be the the key word is economically beneficial use, and so arguably if there is any economic use left, then it's a not a total taking. It could be a partial taking, and that's a a different um a different standard either way. Okay. One other question, he said that when his family went to the mainland and talked about selling land in Hawaii to folks from here to Wall Street, he said that they didn't want anything to do with it, that evidently Hawaii has at least in their minds a very, very bad reputation. They didn't want to get involved in whatever uh we put up with here in Hawaii. Um what was that all about? Well, Hawaii, because of its complex and sophisticated land use system and because of the time it takes to get a a permit to do a project even that most folks agree would be appropriate through often several years, um we do have the reputation on the mainland of being a very difficult place to do development. Um even developers and landowners that come in from California, which has a similar reputation, um come away amazed at the amount of time it takes and and the way we tie up uh land decisions and of course that makes it very difficult to use money upon which interest is being charged, which is what most people do, take out loans to do developments, makes it hard to do those developments in an economic fashion and it does keep development out of Hawaii and as we see, it's beginning to drive developers and development out of the state. Okay. David, appreciate uh your answering some questions this morning. Sure, glad to do it. Well folks, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show and believe it or not, we don't have any callers on the line and I'm a little bit um surprised by that because Keith Robinson said some surprisingly, to me at least, provocative things during the 34 minutes or so of conversation we had with him. We've got some time, if you'd like to give us a call, you'll be first in line, the number's 955-8821, or from a neighbor island, 1-800-955-8821. Just to recap some of the things that Keith Robinson had to say, first of all, he wanted to make clear that there isn't a current plan to sell the island of Ni'ihau. He indicated that the family has been in this for the long haul and it's 134 years and counting and he certainly indicated that short of selling their own homes in which they live, uh the Robinson family is very much committed to hanging on to the island of Ni'ihau and continuing to operate it pretty much the way they have. Although the business activity on the island, the ranching, the farming, the uh the charcoal manufacturing business, that all they've shut down because it's lost money year after year after year and they simply can't afford to continue to lose that money. When asked uh why that and other business interests of theirs have not been doing better, uh basically he described what he considered an intolerable business climate that that exists here in Hawaii. He told the family story of 134 years ago when the island was bought from the king, Kamehameha V at that time, that after the land had been bought, the island had been bought, in his words, it was a a done deal. Uh the king indicated uh softly that his people were dying and his people weren't doing so well and he indicated a hope that the Robinson family could kind of watch out for them. And it's pretty clear that while that doesn't create any kind of legal obligation 134 years later, we've got members of the Robinson family who are indicating that they feel some sense of of moral obligation based upon that. Well, I'm not finished recapping, but we've got four people on the line and so we're going to go to them and ask them to keep their comments relatively short so that we can get to everybody first. Jerry from Kailua, good morning, Jerry. Good morning. You know, um, I I I I like hearing from people like this because they they provide a certain piece of history, but at the same time, yeah, they they haven't kept up to date. Uh Hawaii is not a socialist state if it's welfare programs are lesser than almost any other state in the union. Uh, it it used to be and and in the days when when Hawaii was welfare's programs were functioning well, people were very happy with the community. They're not happy with it now. We've been abandoned by businesses, and this insular or island family is a it was contradictory. He he told us several times that he would never sell the place and then he talked about how how he was trying to sell it and couldn't find a bidder. Oh no, he wasn't talking about the island of Ni'ihau when he was talking about looking for a buyer, he was talking about his land on Kauai. Okay. Well, anyway, it it it's a kind of this the same principle. the the whole business of trashing Hawaii as a place that's bad for business is is an upside down insanity. that Hawaii pays a 35% paradise tax, that is, we give businesses 35%

[00:57:00] Randall Roth: more than they would get if they were operating in the mainland. And um it it's a good climate

[00:57:12] Caller: Okay.

[00:57:25] Randall Roth: for business and it's too bad that that we listen to to the um lobbyists that call themselves the environment the the economic revitalization task force and simply ask for tax cuts for the very wealthy people like we're talking to now.

[00:57:37] Caller: Okay. Jerry, we appreciate your call this morning. We we go to Anita in Waipahu. Good morning, Anita. Uh, good morning. I just wanted to say that I have some knowledge of Keith's work with endangered plants and he works very, very hard and does a real good job.

[00:58:02] Randall Roth: Well, great. We appreciate your calling in this morning.

[00:58:15] Caller: Okay.

[00:58:27] Randall Roth: We go to Scott in Kailua. Good morning, Scott.

[00:58:40] Caller: Uh just a brief comment. Uh I think Keith Robinson is a highly intelligent person who is a great conversationalist and has a wonderful sense of humor and their management of Niihau over the last 134 years of course speaks for itself. Um I I think um one of the uh sidelines of the conversation that perhaps ought to be given more consideration is um your your suggestion that there be a common sense party. And uh this this really ought to be looked into. I urge you to have more conversations with Keith Robinson on many subjects.

[00:59:17] Randall Roth: Okay, Scott, thank you very much for your call.

[00:59:30] Caller: You bet.

[00:59:42] Randall Roth: We go to Grant in Kailua. Good morning, Grant.

[00:59:55] Caller: Good morning. Um a couple things. Uh I just heard Jerry while I was waiting on the phone here and uh sounds like he's not a businessman and uh uh doesn't have to fight the bureaucracy, he just looks at it from um you know, uh an outsider's point of view. Anyway, um most of this uh government power stuff seems to be a a way for people to gain power over property and uh um uh valuable assets, whatever, that without earning it. Uh so you can become elected and then be put in a position of power over somebody else's property. And I think this uh need for power uh is also tied into the idea that uh the government uh is not releasing and not honoring uh uh Hawaiian claims to various parcels of land and things.

[01:00:32] Caller: Nobody wants to give up that power. I don't know that it's the land, particularly, it's the power over the land and the power over how it's used, even if that use uh uh uh reduces the value such as development or uh you know, whatever. It still is a matter of uh of uh people wanting the power and uh and not wanting to give it up.

[01:00:45] Randall Roth: Okay. Grant, we appreciate your call.

[01:00:57] Caller: Thank you.

[01:01:10] Randall Roth: We go to Molly in Manoa. Good morning, Molly.

[01:01:22] Caller: Uh good morning. I want to tell you first of all, I have great respect for the Robinsons, and a sympathy for the Robinsons. I have two points. First is if you will look at a map, you will see that their property is not on the north shore, it's on the west shore of Kauai. I feel badly when you keep talking about the north shore.

[01:01:47] Randall Roth: Well, they they have property uh around the island and this north shore property is uh is acreage that's that's sitting there undeveloped that they have been holding on to for eventual sale. Uh it is on the north shore, but they you're right, the much of their operations are on the west side.

[01:02:12] Caller: Uh I might suggest that you discuss it with him sometime yourself. Again, I looked at a map and I think most of it is on the west shore. Not just on the west shore, it's on the west side. But my second point is, that I wonder if they have asked the Land Use Commission to change some of the conservation zone.

[01:02:25] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I'd like to hear the answer to that sometime. Uh I'll take that as a call because I don't know the answer. I can simply say that that David Kelly's uh a few minutes ago commented that uh at least if I interpret his comment correctly that it is as a practical matter, uh extremely difficult to get that changed. Molly, thank you for your call. We've got time for one more call. Let's go to Larry in Manoa. Good morning, Larry.

[01:03:02] Caller: Good morning. Uh I was noticing that nobody could speak on the radio of course for why the land is in conservation and there may be good reasons, it's just we don't know. So I I just uh my comment is that not to necessarily link the all the good and wonderful things that are happening on the island with uh on Niihau with the conclusion that we need to do away with conservation land or that there wasn't good reason for that particular parcel to be in conservation. Okay. I'm looking at over the Manoa Valley over here and I have read that um many, many years back, this was the truck farm area for all of Honolulu and now now it's all developed.

[01:03:40] Caller: And I know that in Hawaii it's very important that we have a balance between development and conservation and other uses. Otherwise the place would be covered with concrete and uh asphalt.

[01:03:52] Randall Roth: Larry, appreciate your call. Um we're flash if a flash we're completely out of time. They're flashing a card at me. We're out of time. I got to move on. It's um the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Our producer is Susie Roth, the production chief is Jeff Alardi. This morning you were listening to a conversation that was recorded yesterday with Keith Robinson of the Robinson family. Uh most of their operations on are on Kauai, but many of us know of the Robinsons primarily because of their 134 year ownership of the island of Niihau. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that supports grassroot efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii, and that for more than 80 years has been administering charitable funds with efficiency and compassion.

[01:04:30] Randall Roth: One of their many specific programs has to do with neighborhoods. It provides grants to help neighbors work together on projects such as community policing, graffiti paint outs, clearing away debris and trash, or holding community festivals that bring people together. Since this particular program was established just seven years ago, the foundation has given more than $1 million in grants to hundreds of neighborhoods across the state. This is just one of the many reasons why those of us who work on this particular radio show are proud to say they're our sponsor. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.