The Natatorium
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-04-26
Guests: Rick Bernstein (Kaimana Beach Coalition); Robert J. Fishman (Managing Director, City and County of Honolulu); Bruce Anderson (Deputy Director, State Department of Health)
Duration: 1:01:10

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Aloha, my name is Randy Roth and this is the Price of Paradise radio show. This program is brought to you by volunteers who believe in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. Our sponsor has been our sponsor for nearly five years, it's the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that encourages grassroot efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. The Hawaii Community Foundation has been earning the trust of the people of Hawaii for over 80 years. Our topic this morning is the Waikiki War Memorial Natatorium. It opened in 1927, was allowed to deteriorate and eventually closed in 1979 for safety reasons. Right now, I think just about everybody agrees that something needs to change, but what?

[00:00:54] Randall Roth: There are some people who on one extreme say tear it down completely, and then there are some other folks who are saying, let's go in and completely restore it to its original condition with modern improvements, of course. A lot of voices in between, and we're going to make an attempt this morning to hear as many as possible. You may recall that two weeks ago in the Honolulu Advertiser, the Sunday paper, Bill Chapman, who is the director of Historic Preservation program at the University of Hawaii, wrote an article about the Natatorium where he was making the case for restoring it to its original condition, which includes the saltwater pool. In this morning's newspaper, there are three articles, one is by Rick Bernstein, who is a member of the Kaimana Beach Coalition, a second is by Bob Fishman, who is the city manager for the City and County of Honolulu, and a third by Bruce Anderson, a deputy director of the State Department of Health.

[00:01:25] Randall Roth: We have Rick with us by phone, Bob Fishman and Bruce Anderson in the studio, and then we also have Ed Piscosky, who is the architect and engineer for the city's proposed plan of renovating it back to its original condition with modern improvements. So with that, we're going to start talking about this and as we get a little bit further into the program, I'm going to tell you more about our guests in the studio. But first, Bob Fishman, who is the managing director for the City and County of Honolulu, Bob, according to your piece in this morning's newspaper, I know the city is, has some plans and those plans have been on the table for a long time.

[00:01:49] Randall Roth: As an observer of all of this, I'm wondering why are they plans? In other words, why hasn't something happened over this relatively long period of time that that I've been reading about plans to renovate the Natatorium. I guess I've asked you about three questions there, Bob, tell me, what are we talking about this morning so far as the Natatorium is concerned?

[00:02:04] Robert J. Fishman: Well, thank you, Randy. Well, first of all, this is one of those issues that sorts itself out into a moral category as well as a practical category. From the moral perspective, we are proud to be part of the implementation of what started in 1921 when the Territorial Legislature appropriated money and mandated that a war memorial for the the hundred and one Hawaii people, the sons and daughters of Hawaii who lost their lives in World War One, where they could be memorialized. And as recently as 1993, in House Concurrent Resolution 386, the Legislature reaffirmed that commitment that was made in 1921, and called for the recollection of that commitment that was made in perpetuity and the redevelopment or the restoration of the memorial.

[00:02:28] Robert J. Fishman: I think people have to remember that merely because it becomes difficult or impractical to maintain a memorial, a commitment of our legislature, of our fathers in this community, we can't just say it's impractical and we're just going to do something else. Why don't we just forget about it and ignore the commitment that was made to these people who were memorialized? I think that's the wrong thing to do, that's the morally wrong thing to do, and I think we owe it to ourselves to search every possible way to fulfill that commitment. I think one other thing that's important to mention is that is that the State Land and Natural Resources Department and the resources of the state government were active for the first part of this decade, and it was in January of 1995 that Governor Cayetano signed the environmental impact statement triggering the move forward, and that was right about the beginning of the Harris administration as well.

[00:02:59] Robert J. Fishman: So at that point in time, we met with the friends of the Natatorium, which was one of the leading proponent groups to move forward with the restoration, and we started our planning at that point. So it would be probably unfair to say that there was a great deal of foot dragging on this. Now I can't explain why in decades past from the time of 1979 until the 1990s it took so long, but I do know at one point that one of the state administrations tried to close and shut down the facility, tear it down, and they were stopped by the Supreme Court of the State of Hawaii because of the legislative mandate that was made.

[00:03:23] Robert J. Fishman: And if the legislature wanted to change the law, it has the ability to do that. But in this case, in this case, the legislature has not moved to change the law, and we have not only a refusal to change the law, which calls for this this this facility, but we also have a concurrent resolution which encourages us to move forward.

[00:03:38] Randall Roth: Two quick questions. One, you're saying that this moral commitment is to not just preserve part of it, but to preserve all of it and to preserve it in the original intended use, which includes the saltwater pool.

[00:03:54] Robert J. Fishman: Yes, and that isn't my call. That's specifically from the language of Act 15 of 1921 of that legislature. It says plans shall include a swimming course at least 100 meters. And I'll tell you, the legislature amends laws every year. And I don't think it's an accident that that hasn't been amended and I think we have a moral commitment to do what that what that calls for. And and when you talk to Ed Piscosky, the architect, you will find out that it's very practical and doable. And some of the mistakes that were made in the original design of the Natatorium are going to be corrected, and and Ed will tell you how they've been corrected.

[00:04:48] Randall Roth: Okay, when I talked about how this has been going on for some time, I didn't mean to suggest you were dragging your feet, Bob. I thought you were going to point to Bruce Anderson and saying it's his fault.

[00:05:04] Robert J. Fishman: No, we don't do that.

[00:05:12] Randall Roth: Bruce in this morning's article in the paper, uh, I read that uh, that you have to approve this thing and you've got some concerns and I get the impression that you're simply not going to approve it and therefore it's not going to go forward uh until these concerns have been, to your satisfaction addressed.

[00:05:20] Bruce Anderson: Randy, that's that's essentially correct. Um, I'm a relative latecomer to the issue. I've I certainly have not been involved since the 1920s as many people have who've been uh debating this for decades. But following Bob, I I'd just point out that the law that essentially appropriated the funding uh for this was a session law that was simply an appropriations bill. It appropriated $250,000 for the construction of the Natatorium. It basically said this is the money and this is how it should be spent. I don't know that that ties us into preserving it forever as such. But having said that, I swam in the the Natatorium when I was a kid in the 50s and 60s and back then, uh we all went down there to jump off the platforms and slide down the slide into the murky waters of the pool.

[00:06:22] Bruce Anderson: The uh the facility, I think was originally intended as a swimming pool. It it um served its need back in the 1920s, but when I swam there in the 50s and 60s, it was no longer used as a competitive swimming venue. It was simply a a place for people to go to hang out and to jump off the platforms and slide down the slides. The water was always murky. I've never seen anyone, never talked to anyone, except perhaps Ed, who said he could see the bottom at one point, whoever said he could they could see the bottom of the pool.

[00:07:01] Randall Roth: And Ed is the architect uh that we're going to talk to in a few minutes on the renovation plans.

[00:07:09] Bruce Anderson: That's right, I I've asked dozens of groups, uh has anyone ever seen the bottom of the pool and the answer was uniformly no among those who have ever swam there. And that's the reason why the health department is scrutinizing this project so closely. It's not that we're against the restoration. In fact, uh I certainly appreciate the good intent of Bob and and many of the others who are are are adamantly in support of restoring it as it was. The concern we have is that times have changed. The standards have changed for public swimming venues. Uh, swimming pools now have to conform to our state rules as it relates to health and safety, and the old pool simply won't do that.

[00:08:04] Bruce Anderson: You can't disinfect a saltwater pool. That's one of the major problems and you can't see the bottom, which is another issue that we're most concerned about.

[00:08:19] Randall Roth: So as I understand it, your concern with the city's plans is with the the pool part of this. In other words, if there was some alternative use rather than as a swimming pool, uh the structure itself isn't something that you're concerned about.

[00:08:35] Bruce Anderson: The health department has been focused almost exclusively on water quality as it relates to the water quality in the pool. I think there are other uses personally that that should be considered, but uh having said that, our our main concerns center around the water quality in the pool and the appropriateness of restoring the the Natatorium as a swimming pool.

[00:08:50] Robert J. Fishman: Let me let me let me add something. I think first of all we don't argue that the excuse me second. This is Bob Fishman and I'm going to go to Ed Piscosky in in just a moment but Bob. Okay. We we don't argue that that the the pool didn't didn't work, especially after the the holes, the intake and the outlet holes uh became clogged and and I think one of the things that was pointed out, and when you talk to Ed, you'll find that out, was that it was there were some design flaws in the pool at the very beginning and that is a made Well let's talk to the designer. Yeah, but just but just a moment, but but to say that that, well, I've never seen anybody who's seen the the the the water clear, I think it gets around the issue of what we're trying to accomplish over here.

[00:09:30] Robert J. Fishman: That is not that's not to say that we can't solve that problem, and I think one of the things that the state has done it has a it has seen its way clear to approve other saltwater swimming venues and lagoons and including a very large one, much larger than what we're talking about at the Hilton Hawaiian Village, which will be a swim through reef. And I think it proves that technology today, when it's properly applied, can solve these kinds of science science problems, and I think that one of the solutions can be seen in what's going to happen at the Natatorium.

[00:09:45] Randall Roth: Okay, well let's go to Ed Piscosky, who's with Leo A. Daly. It's an architectural and engineering firm and Ed is the individual who I guess has put together the the specific plans for renovating the Natatorium as a venue for swimming events. Ed, can you hear me okay?

[00:10:09] Caller: Uh yes, Randy, thank you.

[00:10:16] Randall Roth: Um, you've heard among other things, Bruce Anderson commenting on his concerns about water uh clarity and and just the the health issues so far as the water quality is concerned. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about how as the designer you've tried to address that?

[00:10:32] Caller: Okay, um, as Bob Fishman said, uh everyone is concerned with uh the public health and and safety issues, including uh water clarity. Um, I guess we feel confident in our design and and actually um uh you mentioned that it's a city and county plan, but in fact, our client from 1988 until 1996 for both the planning, uh the environmental impact statement work and the final design and documentation was the State of Hawaii. Um in in the last uh year or so since the city and county has taken over the project, um I I felt good about the plans because uh the city and county have gone around and spoken to many uh many people in different fields and they've come away from those conversations and meetings uh feeling that the project will work, uh that it is a good project, that the design uh will meet the public uh health and safety issues, and then they want to proceed with the project.

[00:10:55] Caller: Um, at any time, the mayor or the director of the building department Randy Fujiki could have could walk away from the project, but uh after these various meetings, uh they feel good about it and they want to proceed with the project.

[00:11:03] Randall Roth: Ed, how are you going to be able to address Bruce's and the Department of Health's concerns when as I understand it, there isn't a similar pool anywhere and so isn't it all theoretical as opposed to pointing to a specific saltwater pool that that has this modern technology that's working.

[00:11:11] Caller: Okay, um, there is obviously not an exact replica of the war memorial, but there are other uh saltwater venues. Um, Bob mentioned the Hilton Hawaiian Village Lagoon project uh on the Big Island we have the Kona Surf Hotel, which has had a saltwater pool for 26 years. Uh they have no treatment system and they depend on three pool volume changes per day. Uh their guests there have a choice of going to a freshwater pool, the saltwater pool I mentioned or the ocean, and our understanding is uh the guest greatly, greatly prefer the saltwater pool. Uh we also have uh the Kapahulu Groin uh Magic Island, and uh a previous project uh for our firm, the Ko Olina swimming lagoons.

[00:11:50] Randall Roth: So you feel that that this isn't uh all that unique?

[00:11:58] Caller: No, not really. Um, an issue has also been made of the fact that we did not do full-scale modeling. Um, the reason we did not do full-scale modeling was because in fact we had a uh, or or excuse me, large-scale modeling. Uh, we did not do large-scale modeling was because we had the uh, the existing uh war memorial to work with. Obviously mistakes were made, and we were able to learn from those mistakes. Uh, we had uh the resources to do our work properly, and we had the very best people available to do those including uh Dr. Carl Bathan and Dr. Fran Scara.

[00:12:45] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, Bruce, anything to add real briefly before we move on?

[00:13:00] Bruce Anderson: Yeah, I, I, um Oh I I'm sorry, I meant Ed.

[00:13:08] Randall Roth: I'm going to come to Bruce. Uh, Ed, are you still there?

[00:13:24] Caller: Yes.

[00:13:32] Randall Roth: Uh, anything that you want to add real briefly before we we move on?

[00:13:39] Caller: Um, no, I I think that's it. I'd be happy to answer uh additional questions.

[00:13:55] Randall Roth: Okay, well if you can stay on the line, uh toward the end of the show, we'll come back to you after you've heard uh everybody else's input.

[00:14:03] Caller: Thank you.

[00:14:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Real briefly from Bruce, but I want to get uh Rick's comments out quickly, so Bruce.

[00:14:26] Bruce Anderson: Just just for the benefit of your listeners, the the problem with water clarity is is is quite simple. The pool acts as a sediment catchment basin, and that's what was a that was the problem in the past, that is what we're concerned about in the future. What happens is the the ocean water that's that's stirred up by the surf and so forth, has a number, a lot of suspended solids in it. When that water comes into the calm water of a pool, it settles out and you get silt deposited in the bottom of the pool. This was a major problem, recognized even years after the the uh the pool was constructed, in fact it resulted in closure of the pool in the 1940s and still hasn't been addressed.

[00:15:05] Bruce Anderson: The uh, it's a problem inherent in the design where when you get water coming into a a still area, the sediments fall out naturally. They settle onto the bottom and eventually you get a layer of silt that accumulates. Now that sediment gets stirred up again, and that's what the problem was with the old pool. So when we speak about water clarity, that's the main concern we have. The other concern is the the the concern that when water's naturally stirred up, at best the water quality in the pool is going to be the same as outside and there are days when you're swimming off Kaimana where you can't see your hand in front of your face.

[00:15:44] Bruce Anderson: In those days, when the surf's big, usually in the summer, most often at high tide, we'd have to close the pool. You simply can't allow a swimming pool these days to be open when you can't see the bottom, it's a safety issue.

[00:16:00] Robert J. Fishman: I think it's important to mention on that uh also that the old pool design had a had a 25 foot depth on one side for to accommodate diving and of course it sloped up, and that that thwarte dramatically the water circulation and the water movement within the pool and the old pool design had a very negligible pool exchange water water exchange in the pool and this design uh would increase the water exchange up to 10 times per day, which gets gets away from a lot of the concerns I think of sedimentation and not moving moving uh the water through the pool in a in a meaningful way. Now I'm not a scientist, but I will tell you that there's an been an enormous amount of of study into this very problem.

[00:16:16] Robert J. Fishman: This is a this is an important concern and Bruce is a scientist and he knows, but I think that when people look at the design and and the changes that have been made that correct the very small inlet and outlet uh tubes that were in the old design to the very large ones, you will find that inside the pool, there will be a water quality that will emulate the water quality just outside the pool, and I think that that's not a concern to people who swim in Waikiki.

[00:16:23] Randall Roth: That was Bob Fishman, and and I'm resisting, but we're getting into this debate before we've got everybody's positions on the table. So we've got one more person whose voice you're going to be hearing for sure and that is Rick Bernstein, who is a member of the Kaimana Beach Coalition. Rick is somebody who's been very active uh on this issue for quite some time. Rick, can you hear me?

[00:16:55] Rick Bernstein: Good morning, Randy.

[00:17:02] Randall Roth: Uh, Rick, you've got a piece in the paper as well as uh the pieces by Bob and and Bruce this morning. Uh, can you tell us real quickly where you are on this issue?

[00:17:18] Rick Bernstein: Well, before I do that, I would like to to address uh the claim of changing the water 10 times in the pool.

[00:17:26] Randall Roth: Um, Rick, I lost control of this conversation 10 minutes ago, so go ahead.

[00:17:34] Rick Bernstein: Okay. The environmental impact statement states very clearly that the water, the average would be one to three times per day and on very rare exceptions 10 times per day. So the claim that the water will be changing 10 times per day um is not consistent with the environmental impact statement. Having said that, I would like to share with you the vision of the Kaimana Beach Coalition, which is made up of uh users of the area, neighbors and um, park users, and beach users. First, we would like to restore the beach. We'd like to restore the Diamond Head and Ewa Walls uh to act as groins to stabilize the sand Kaimana Beach and the new beach where the swimming pool now exists or now now is.

[00:18:20] Rick Bernstein: Uh we would like to build new restrooms and showers, restore the Memorial Arch to honor the Hawaii residents who were killed in battle in World War I. And by the way, these plans have been in place since Mayor Blasedale and were supported by Eileen Anderson and and Frank Fasi.

[00:18:36] Randall Roth: The plans that you're describing.

[00:18:44] Rick Bernstein: Correct.

[00:18:52] Randall Roth: And and so that I've got a mental picture that's correct, Rick, you're talking about leaving the part that people can see uh, but the pool part would go and and the beach would be there. its place.

[00:19:27] Caller: Um, not quite. We're um in favor of restoring the memorial arch, um removing the um bleachers that that block the viewplane, uh the beautiful viewplane of that area.

[00:19:55] Randall Roth: So the arch is is

[00:20:23] Caller: The arch is the memorial, yes.

[00:20:51] Randall Roth: Okay, so And by executive order um of um Governor Ariyoshi, uh the pool was separated from the memorial park, and as such can be demolished, just so there's clarity on that issue. Okay. Well, why don't you There's no clarity on that issue. Finish up telling us what uh the vision of your group is, and then we're going to invite some calls.

[00:21:46] Caller: Okay. Um we feel that the effect of this partial restoration would be obviously a new beach and open space for visitors and residents. Um it would be much less costly to construct even though claim is that it would be the same cost to uh demolish as it would to reconstruct. Uh there was a study done in the 80s by the CGAS Architectural group that said it would cost approximately half as much. We feel that there would be far less maintenance costs for a beach and a restored memorial arch as compared to a swimming pool and a whole structure. We feel that there would be a much more natural flow of users to the area, reduce traffic and parking problems, which are already um very bad. It would keep access to the beach open to the community, and it would sure assure better water quality uh at the beach because it wouldn't be receiving the runoff from the natatorium.

[00:22:42] Randall Roth: Okay.

[00:23:10] Caller: One Just two more things, it would remove the commercial aspects of the rest of the full restoration, and it would keep Kaplani Park park, and finally, it would be a fitting memorial to the war dead.

[00:23:38] Randall Roth: Okay. Rick, if you want to stay on the line toward the end of the show, I'll go back to you as as well as going back to Ed Piscauskey and get your additional thoughts.

[00:24:05] Caller: Thank you, Randy.

[00:24:33] Randall Roth: Thank you. You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. Our topic this morning is the Waikiki War Memorial Natatorium, specifically, what should be done with it? Should we renovate it completely and have a uh saltwater pool as part of that uh uh process, or should it be completely torn down, or should we do something in between? If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island the number is 1-800-955-8821. You've heard by phone from Ed Piscauskey, who is the architect and engineer for the renovation plans, and Rick Bernstein, who is with the Kaimana Beach Coalition. With me in the studio is Bob Fishman and Bruce Alec uh Bruce Anderson. Bob Fishman currently is the managing director of the City and County of Honolulu. In past lives, he's been the director of communications for Governor Wahe, the chief of staff for Governor Ariyoshi, he was administrative assistant and press secretary to the State Senate president. He's been general manager of Aloha Stadium. Last year he was awarded the excellence in Public Administration award, and two years before that received the Navy's meritorious service award.

[00:25:29] Randall Roth: He was the president of Temple Emmanuel from 1992 to 94. He has two degrees from the University of Hawaii, an undergraduate degree and an MBA, and he's a colonel in the US Army Reserve. Bruce Anderson is the deputy director in the State Department of Health. He's been overseeing the State's environmental protection programs for over 10 years. He was born and raised in Hawaii, graduated from Puna, Yale, and the University of Hawaii, where he has his PhD in biomedical science. As deputy director of the Department of Health, he directs programs statewide to protect drinking water, air and coastal water quality, also administers state sanitation, food and drug, vector control, noise and radiation and laboratory services programs. And this morning right before the show, Bob said don't forget to mention that he spent a few months working for the city as well. That's Bob Fishman, the a few months.

[00:25:57] Randall Roth: Bob Fishman, the managing director of the City and County of Honolulu, and Bruce Anderson, who is the deputy director in the State Department of Health. Well, again, if you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. We go to our first caller, which is Bill from Waikiki. Good morning, Bill.

[00:26:24] Speaker Bill: Uh hi. Thanks for taking the call. You know, I grew up in New England and uh they are along the coastline uh the beach area. There was a uh a private pool that had salt water. And these folks had some great big pumps there. And they would fill the pool in the in the spring or when the beach began operating due to the weather. And uh every couple or maybe a week or 10 days or so or maybe longer, I'm not sure. I never paid close attention as a young person. They would pump out that pool, you know, it was a self-contained pool right next to the ocean. So they would pump it out and uh overnight and then fill it the next day. I guess it would be closed for one day. Why don't we just go out and spend a million dollars on pumps and seal up the pool and we can pump fresh sea water in and out of it at our uh discretion, and then we could give a lot of money to the electric company who would continue to pollute the air to provide us with the electricity and the cost of those pumps and the running them. And isn't this all foolishness? Shouldn't we just have an arch to honor those folks and get back to the beach?

[00:26:52] Randall Roth: Okay. Bill, I'm going to take that as a comment, and we're going to move on to Bob from uh Papa Kalea, who is a veteran. Good morning, Bob.

[00:27:20] Speaker Bob: Good morning.

[00:27:48] Randall Roth: You're on the air.

[00:28:16] Speaker Bob: Okay. I I I support the total uh reconstruction and of the memorial uh as a veteran, and also for those who have fought and gave their life for it. And as a youngster, I swam and used the facility and I think that it's a great idea that we should keep it as a living memorial. And I think because of the high tech engineering we have today in water, they can solve a problem, and they they can use the education. But for to break it down, I'm not against it. I'm fully for redoing it uh in total for a living memorial, and I speak as a past uh DB commander, an immediate past commander, also the commander for the military order of the Purple Heart uh State of Hawaii.

[00:28:43] Speaker Bob: We supported this bill, and we supported the groundwork from the early 80s with the friends of the the Natatorium, uh Mr. Ron Yasoi and Mr. Pang, and they worked very, very hard with all the others uh the uh veterans organization to get support. We've been to the city council, and now we are at a standstill, and it frustrates me.

[00:29:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Bob, I'm going to take that as a comment. I appreciate it. We're going to move on to Fred from Honolulu, who's with the Oahu Veterans Council. Good morning, Fred.

[00:29:39] Speaker Fred: Uh good morning, sir. Uh I just like to state that having been a member of the council now for three or four years and we've uh from day one have been in favor of the complete restoration of the Natatorium. It is a living war memorial. It is the only one in the country, and we want to keep it that way. Uh there is a a lot of aging memorials around the country. If uh if Hawaii sets the precedent for tearing one down, then this will probably set a precedent for others to come down in the future, and I don't think this state wants that on its record.

[00:30:35] Randall Roth: And Fred, just preserving the arch wouldn't do it for you, that it's the whole thing.

[00:31:02] Speaker Fred: No sir, the arch and the pool are one entity. It's always been that way and it should be restored that way.

[00:31:30] Randall Roth: Okay, Fred, I appreciate your call this morning. We're going to take one more call and then we're going to open this up for a little bit of a debate between Bob Fishman and Bruce Anderson and they can also comment on the comments that are being made by our callers. Let's go to Mary Jane McMurdo. Good morning, Mary Jane.

[00:31:58] Speaker Mary Jane McMurdo: Uh, good morning, Randy. How are you?

[00:32:26] Randall Roth: Fine.

[00:32:54] Speaker Mary Jane McMurdo: You're on the air. Uh, I'm calling because I was a little shocked that you didn't have somebody from the Friends of the Natatorium uh to counter Bruce I mean Bernstein and Bruce Anderson for that matter. I've been a member of the friends since of well probably five years, but I started out working with them in 1986 when I was in the legislature, and we've worked in the Senate, the House, the governor, everybody has been be in favor of this. And then the city started working on it, and the next thing we knew, all of these obstacles came up. One of the things that Bruce Anderson has never answered to anybody's satisfaction is the uh stuff that he has talked about the bacteria in the pool, and he has been on this little refrain for years. I've asked and asked and asked, what kind of statistics does he have from the former operation of the pool to back up his claim?

[00:33:49] Randall Roth: Okay. Mary Jane, I'm going to take that as a comment because Bruce is I know going to address that and a whole bunch of other things in just a a minute, but that was Mary Jane McMurdo, uh who is a member of the Friends of the Natatorium, which has been working for a long time for complete restoration. Well, in case you tuned in late, we're talking about the Waikiki War Memorial Natatorium. We've just heard comments from four or five callers. I've got Bob Fishman from the City and County of Honolulu and Bruce Anderson from the State Department of Health in the studio with me. And for a little bit I'm just going to get out of the way and let you guys talk to to each other. Bruce, why don't you start since Mary Jane specifically uh directed a question toward you, but why don't you start Bob, jump in as you will and we're going to give you an opportunity to talk to one another. Bruce Anderson.

[00:34:17] Bruce Anderson: Yeah, Randy, thanks for the opportunity to to make clear the concern we have on on bacterial water quality. all pertaining to the development. All pertaining to the development. All pertaining skin infections aren't about. Actually, this concern came up, uh I spoke to Roger Fujioka, who is head of the Water Resources Research Center, where he found um high rates of of staff skin infections among people who are swimming at Alana Beach Park. And what he found was that uh there was a clear correlation between water quality and the number of people swimming. That is, the more more people you had swimming, the poorer the circulation, the higher the level of staff bacteria. For those who don't know, staff causes boils, skin infections, and and ear infections. I remember as a kid, uh jumping off the platforms here at the Natatorium, we used to all go down and get a leaf, and would stick it in our mouths before we jumped off the pool uh platforms because if we didn't, water would get jammed up into our sinuses. And uh almost invariably, if you if you had uh water in your sinuses for any length of time, you'd come up down with an ear infection.

[00:35:40] Bruce Anderson: That and and many other reports uh uh led led to the concern we had. But it wasn't really a concern even raised by the health department. It was raised by the Water Resources Research Center as we looked at the uh the pool. And incidentally, that was a concern we've raised from day one. The problem with salt water is you don't have any standards that govern the the the the quality of water in a salt water pool. With fresh water, you can chlorinate the pool, and after showering, jumping in a chlorinated pool, there's virtually no risk of infection. We still recommend you don't go swimming if you have an open cut or wound. But having said that, they uh the water is you can quality you can control in a a fresh water pool. Uh you can't do that on an open ocean pool.

[00:36:08] Bruce Anderson: Uh it's a it's a problem that that that is inherent with any salt water pool. Staff bacteria love salt water. And in fact, the way you culture for staff bacteria is you put them in a saline media because it kills most of the other bacteria, but but they uh staff are are just fine in there. So that's that's the major issue related to uh water quality as it relates to bacterial infections. The better the circulation, the the the the less the infection. Now, if the pool exchange is 10 times a day, almost the same as uh what you might expect outside the pool, then I wouldn't expect this to be a problem. But if the pool circulation is restricted in any way, if you're getting down to one to three times a day, that's that's much more restricted than you would have outside the pool area. And in fact, you'd start getting into a a realm where I think there would be a significant health risk. And again, we don't have any standards by which to judge the the degree of risk because there are no standard methods for looking for staff in salt water, and quantifying the staff in the salt water.

[00:36:36] Robert J. Fishman: The important thing to keep in mind, this is Bob here, uh is that uh the the the the factors that will affect uh the water exchange in the pool are exactly what is being dealt with by the consultants and by the architects and and Dr. France Gerson, who for a long time was the head of the uh the Department of Ocean Engineering at the University of Hawaii, uh will say the same thing, and he did to uh to Ed, who is the architect in charge, and Ed will tell you this, that that's the very variable that has been that has been changed dramatically for the for the benefit of the of the swimmers in the pool. But you know, the one thing that has to be kept in mind here is that even though uh Bruce says uh that there are it's very difficult to place standards or to enforce standards on ocean water, on on saltwater swimming areas, that has not stopped the state from approving other saltwater swimming areas all around the state uh and some which are, in this in this case of the Hilton Hawaiian Village Swim through Reef, which is a wonderful project, and it's going to be very very beautiful and well and well managed. Uh that is going to be a larger project than than this pool. And and I think it's very difficult to make assumptions uh based on the fact that there were design flaws in the earlier pool uh from what is going to be in the future. The other side of this that I I I have to get back to, this is not a frivolous uh desire on the part of many people in our population and that this is a very meaningful symbol of our history. Uh the legislature has never wavered, not even once. And when Senator McMurdo spoke to you, uh as having witnessed that debate uh in the legislature, there has never been one effort, one small effort on the part of the legislature to change its resolve that this swimming pool is part of the warm memorial and that the warm memorial should be restored and as recently as 1993, we have a concurrent resolution by both houses of the legislature which have said that. So I think it's a little a little uh improper for us to sit down and start to sec second guess legislative intent here. We should go back to the legislature and ask them to change their mind. If these people feel so strongly that this is the wrong thing to do, uh they there should be a change of mind of our of our lawmakers before we move forward. It is not a frivolous a frivolous thing to be written into the budget of the of the legislature. Let me ask a question, which I think is directed both to to Bob and to Bruce. Um the fact of the matter, I think, is that it's not going to be renovated until Bruce's concerns have been addressed to his satisfaction. Bob, how are you going to do that? How can you do that?

[00:37:04] Robert J. Fishman: Well, Bruce is a rational person. There's no question about it and I think what Bruce is saying to people is show me how you can do it up to the standards of good health and and good management. And I think that at the Coolina pools, at the Hilton Hawaiian Village swim through reef, at the Wykoloa, uh and other areas uh where a lot of people swim, uh it has been demonstrated to the health department that it can be done safely. And I think that in this case and and Bruce's permit is needed for the operation of the pool. It's not for the development, although I think we're trying to be prudent about going forward and getting all the approvals at the same time. Uh I think in this case it will be shown that that it can be done safely. And I think uh Ed Piscauskey and his team, and all the consultants that have been part of the EIS uh that was signed off by the governor. Uh I think that they've shown that we've made a dramatic step forward in water quality uh and that it can be done. It can be managed and handled safely. We're not talking about the 550 users of the pool at the same time. There would be restricted by the number of lifeguards that are on duty and and it would be managed very carefully by the friends. Let me ask Bruce. Bruce, why haven't you been convinced if there are other projects out there that are showing, demonstrating that this can work? What has to be done that hasn't been done in order to get your blessing?

[00:37:32] Bruce Anderson: You you notice we've been uh talking about these other lagoons and venues. None of those have we referred to as a public swimming pool. Our our chapter 11-13A specifically requires that Health Department approve the construction plans and design of public swimming pools, as well as their operations plans. We actually have two approvals that we have to go through. And in that process, we have to be sure that uh the pool is likely to meet the existing standards. What we've asked the city to do is to to to assure us that this pool is going to meet those standards. And so far, we haven't gotten that that clear assurance. I understand from Randy Fujiki, who's the building department point person on this project that they intend to come back to us with some suggested guidelines on this. But we haven't seen anything to date, as it relates to water uh quality and bacterial levels. The water clarity issue is one that we've raised.

[00:38:00] Speaker 1: is that again has not been adequately addressed. The simple collection of data looking at what the water quality is outside the pool, assuming that that's what the quality of the pool is inside the pool, has not been provided to the health department. Turbidity readings, for example, you have to be able to see a disc at the the very bottom portion of the pool. It would be simple enough to go offshore, drop a 6-inch disc, see if you can see it, and how many days of the year you can't see it, and then you would know what the minimum number of days the pool would have to be closed would be. We haven't gotten that information yet. There have been some proposals on how to deal with the the accumulation of sediment, but none of these have been tried and true.

[00:38:43] Speaker 1: The idea of of purging uh the sand that's going to be on the bottom of the pool, as a way of getting rid of the sediment has been one suggested, and it may be a good idea, but this isn't a tried and true method. And in fact, the soft bottom of the pools that's being proposed is one of the major problems. One of the complaints and problems that historically has occurred is people swimming in the pool stir up the bottom. A swimmer feels the bottom 6 feet down. I swam competitively in in high school, played water polo in high school and college. And I I can tell you with assurance that um your your currents go way down below where you are. A 6 foot pool depth is probably the worst depth you can have from that standpoint.

[00:39:26] Speaker 1: As you're treading water, you're going to be stirring up the sand on the bottom. Anything that's on the bottom is going to get stirred up in the process. Now, now I can imagine if the pool is used uh to any extent, you're going to have a significant uh problem with with resuspended sediments as the pool uh is operated. And how do you keep the sand even along the bottom? How do you keep the sand from accumulating along the the diamondhead end of the wall that might occlude the portals that are supposedly going to be venting the pool. These are issues that we've asked the city to come back to us and address and so far, we're getting a off the cuff response is well, if the if the sand accumulates, we'll take a shovel and clear out the sand.

[00:40:09] Speaker 1: We're not talking about a shovel here, we're talking about dump truck loads of sand. Nature doesn't work in small ways. We're talking about a large maintenance cost that that'll be required to clear the pool, to make sure that this system works as it's intended.

[00:40:24] Bruce Anderson: And and and at the risk of of being uh giving Bruce a non-scientific answer, I think this has to be taken in the context of the rest of the beach, the rest of the swimming area in Waikiki. We're talking about providing a swimming environment which is which is immediately comparable to what is right outside the walls of that swimming pool. We're talking about exchanging the water approximately the amount of time that the water is exchanged in the Kapahulu groin, or even better. And I'll tell you that I operated large swimming pools at Castle Park, you know, and there was sand there, and I will tell you right now, I know to some degree how much it's going to get involved in the water.

[00:40:53] Bruce Anderson: We didn't have 6 foot depth, it was less than 6 foot depth, and I'll tell you right now, it's doable.

[00:41:07] Robert J. Fishman: Bob, let me let me ask because as I sit here and I really don't have personally a strong position one way or the other, I'm saying to myself, as a practical matter, number one, the two of you just disagree, but Bruce has to approve this thing, or as I'm hearing the conversation, it's just not going to happen. What can you do after listening to him that you haven't already done over and above what you've done, what can you do to to satisfy him?

[00:41:22] Bruce Anderson: Well, first of all, I don't I don't think that Bruce is an irrational person. I think he has always had an an open mind to talking uh with people seriously on issues that where he is a professional and I expect that his mind continues to be open. And so, it's not a question of where we're going to go behind the barn and duke it out. That doesn't the way we do things. But I will tell you, I will tell you that that there are much larger issues involved in this and this is the way that I started my discussion. Number one, that that natatorium is a disgrace. It is a disgrace. Everyone who drives through Kapiolani Park, everyone who uses the beach should look at that and be ashamed. Number one, that we're neglecting an important part of one of the world's most beautiful beaches. Number two, that we're spitting on the memory of those people for which that that memorial was built.

[00:42:19] Bruce Anderson: And I think we ought to go and do something about it so that we can live up to our consciences and we can get things get things moving forward. That's number one. Number two, if we can send people around the world in a rocket ship and send them to the moon and send and send uh uh messages instantaneously across the world, we can figure out a way of cleaning up the water in that in that natatorium, especially if we're approving swimming areas around the state, which are saltwater swimming areas. Whether you call it a swimming pool or a hot air balloon, the fact of the matter is that people are swimming in the Kaaolena lagoons and people are going to be swimming in the Hilton Hawaiian Village swim through reef.

[00:43:03] Bruce Anderson: And I will tell you that the science scientists have proven that we made major breakthroughs from what was the original design of the natatorium. And if you're going to use the original design of the natatorium and the original problems that were created, as a basis for judging the future, I think you're doing you're doing everyone in injustice. And I think that that's that's the case that needs to be made.

[00:43:31] Robert J. Fishman: In case you tuned in late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. We're talking about the Waikiki War Memorial Natatorium. With me in the studio is Bob Fishman, who is the managing director of the City and County of Honolulu, and Bruce Anderson, who is the deputy uh director of the State Department of Health. We've got uh three people who've been waiting very patiently and I'm going to go to them right now. If you'd like to get in line to ask a question or make a comment, the number is 9558821. Let's go to Sylvia in St. Louis Heights. Good morning, Sylvia.

[00:44:00] Caller: Yes, good morning. I was I was listening with interest to what everybody had to say, but there were a lot of things they did not mention. One was the construction of these enormous groins that will be required, which uh are very uh doubtful as to their impact on the environment or um let's say the quality of the area. And I heard Mr. Fishman mention that uh the memorial is a disgrace to the memory of the veterans. I happened to read an article by Mr. Schmidt, who was head of the statistical branch of the Health Department, and he gave a a statistical numbers and the letter he wrote to the Star bulletin, and he said that there were actually only six uh Hawaii visitors uh Hawaii residents uh veterans who were killed in World War I. Uh not thousands, not even hundreds.

[00:44:44] Robert J. Fishman: 101, ma'am.

[00:44:58] Caller: Well, he he denied that completely and gave this this statement. And the other thing that I would like to say was that the um commercialization of the natatorium which is proposed is hardly a tribute to even six people's memory. There are no uh concessions or gift shops at punch ball and I don't know why the veterans feel that that's completely acceptable.

[00:45:27] Robert J. Fishman: Madam, I'm looking at the article right now and he says there are there were 102 recorded deaths occurred among island residents to uh during uh World War I.

[00:45:41] Caller: But not not in combat and not in in the war itself, right?

[00:45:56] Robert J. Fishman: No, no, no, it says overall total 102 died uh.

[00:46:10] Bruce Anderson: Well, Bob, you're you're you're talking about two different things. Sylvia is let me let me read so that we know exactly what the two two perspectives are. I've got it in front of me and and what Sylvia is referring to is a statement in Bob Schmidt's article, or letter to the editor, that says, "Actual battle deaths of persons in the U.S. Armed Forces, whose pre-service residence was Hawaii, numbered 6. 7 others were wounded." Bob is referring to another part of the letter where the number is 102, but the definition of the group that we're talking about is a little bit different, but I guess everybody agrees that there were people from Hawaii who were in World War I who were uh who lost their lives in the war and the exact number, I guess depends upon your definition of, you know, whether they were residents before or during, and whether they were with the U.S. Forces or forces generally, whether it was in combat or just during the war.

[00:46:39] Robert J. Fishman: But let's take that to a more ridiculous statement, supposing we couldn't bury any new people in Punchbowl Cemetery because it was full and would we consider shutting that down because of the traffic problems? You know, I think you have to put that into perspective. This is a commitment made in perpetuity by the territorial legislature and reinforced by the legislature in the 1990s. Okay, let me get Bruce Anderson has a comment to make and then we'll go back to Sylvia.

[00:47:08] Bruce Anderson: Bob, one thing I I think we need to make clear to all all the listeners here is no one is proposing that that must or the memorial not be restored in some way. Everyone supports restoration and the only thing that would be totally unacceptable would not would be to to not restore the memorial. Even if there were only six that died during the war in combat. I agree with that. Those six brave veterans need to be honored and I think that needs to be made very clear as we talk to other veterans about this issue. Health Department certainly would support that. I think everyone I've talked to does. It's interesting to note that there are over 200 veterans who were killed in combat in the Vietnam War compared to six in World War II. We haven't got to that, we haven't got to that threshold yet, yeah.

[00:47:51] Bruce Anderson: Even saying that, I think we all can agree that the memorial needs to be restored. The only question here that I'm debating is whether we should restore the pool, and whether we could possibly look at other uses of the area that would better serve the public interest, in restoring the memorial for the veterans needs. Number of ideas have been put on the table. The sand volleyball court idea has been put out there. Possibly that might be a a nice idea. But one of the frustrations that we've had in the health department is the Friends of the Natatorium and others refuse to compromise even a bit on the restoration. One idea I've heard recently that I liked was the idea of taking out the diamondhead wall, extending a swimming course through that area, which should would which should be consistent with the uh intent of the natatorium.

[00:48:49] Bruce Anderson: You would have then a venue for for open water swims, for canoeing, kayaking, and other events, a beautiful staging area that would much better serve the public interest, as well as honor those veterans. Those are the kinds of ideas I'd like to see debated but unfortunately, have not come to the table.

[00:49:18] Robert J. Fishman: Yeah, but Bruce, let me share with this. We we are at a point right now where it's very, very late in the game. This the the entire EIS, the environmental impact statement was was was processed by the state of Hawaii, by the Department of Land and Natural Resources. It was signed by the governor in 1995. It's a little late in the game to say, "Oh, maybe what we what we planned to do, we want to stop it right now and do something else." There's no question that that type of changing of the course right now will be confused with stopping everything. And I think that it that that that the veterans and a lot of the the people in the community who would like this to be done uh are concerned that this is really an effort to stop everything that is going on there and that nothing will occur there within the next 5 to 10 years because we go back to the drawing board to term to determine the scientific viability of operating a three-sided pool.

[00:49:47] Robert J. Fishman: And I'll tell you right now, we need to move forward with this because it has gone through the process that the law provided for. It has been endorsed by the legislature, it is the right thing to do. And I don't think that there's any major health problem here. The only concern that I would see is that there's a number of people who are accustomed to utilizing a very quiet beach, who don't want to have more people there. Let me go back to our caller, Sylvia, in just a few seconds, why don't you uh say whatever else you'd like to add?

[00:50:30] Caller: I I would like to because I'm in total and full agreement with Bruce Anderson. I am a member of the Kaimana Coalition also. My husband is a veteran of three wars. Uh, we are long-term residents here. Um, I'm in complete agreement that the art should be restored. Okay. Uh I have never felt any any differently about that, but I do feel that that um money has not been discussed today, but I do feel that commercialization of uh a memorial is inappropriate as a money-making venture and

[00:50:59] Robert J. Fishman: I don't believe that that's ever been planned by the friends. Well, Sylvia, you've made your comment. I I appreciate your call this morning. We got two more people who've been waiting real patiently. We're not going to get to anyone else, so please don't uh make any more calls. But we've got Tom from East Honolulu, and it says in parentheses general, I guess that means Tom, you're a general?

[00:51:28] Caller: Yes, I am. This is Thomas Reanzey, John Reanzey. I live in East Honolulu. I'm a veteran of about 43 years, and about eight wars and I feel very strongly that the World War I Memorial should be uh brought back to its proper status. I remember very uh clearly my uncle and dad who fought in World War I at the Chatu theory and as our gone in the more and telling me of it and when I came back here as an officer and and and lived here seeing the World War I Memorial made me feel very, very sad. So, I'm very hopeful that somehow we can uh uh restore it completely as it should be. As an engineer, incidentally, that has spent billions for the country, uh the water quality can be cured. Uh I it it it it certainly can be fixed with proper engineering.

[00:51:56] Caller: So I feel very strongly that uh as Bob Fishman and the mayor and others uh that we must restore it and not have that eyesore here in the beach.

[00:52:11] Robert J. Fishman: Tom, I appreciate your call. We go to Jack in Waikiki. Good morning, Jack.

[00:52:40] Speaker Jack: Good morning. I'd like to make two points. One is that if you built the whole upper part of the Waikiki uh Natatorium, uh as a raft or a shelf coming out from the shore, and the water had free flow underneath, it would still have all the detritus and all of the organisms and you would have future growth and there's nothing you can do to stop it other than putting filters on all of the holes that you're going to put in the Natatorium.

[00:53:09] Robert J. Fishman: Okay, your other point?

[00:53:23] Speaker Jack: Uh eventually, any Puka will be filled by the reef flow. Okay. Now two, I would question whether the groins being constructed would in any way increase the flow of the of the um tidal flow. It's uh if you have a river and you build the banks, yes, it increases the pressure because pressure comes with depth. But with you with this, the hydraulics are that the pressure goes in all directions and I do not think you're going to have anything sufficient to flush the whole area through there.

[00:53:52] Robert J. Fishman: Okay. Jack, we're going to have to move on because we're getting to the end of the hour and I want to hear briefly from Rick Bernstein and from Ed Piskoski. Let's go to Rick Bernstein next. Uh Rick is a member of the Kaimana Beach Coalition. Uh Rick, we've just got a matter of seconds for you to add anything that needs to be added.

[00:54:06] Rick Bernstein: Thanks, Randy. Um there are no public uh saltwater swimming pools in the United States. No um jurisdiction, governmental jurisdiction is willing to take those on. The last one was San Francisco's Fleishhacker Pool, which was closed in the '80s for similar problems as we have here. Um also I would like to say that this pool was a failure from the start uh in terms of its circulation as as stated by uh Mr. Fishman. And we feel that it's uh in 1998, um it'd be a folly to chase after something that that never worked with uh the assurance from the health department that it's not going to work uh into perpetuity. Why why continue the suffering and why spend 11 and a half or more million dollars to try to perpetuate a pool that uh is sadly outdated and um you know, we have far better things to do with our money than that.

[00:54:35] Robert J. Fishman: Rick, thank you. I appreciate your participation this morning. We got to Ed Piskoski. Ed is with Leo Daley, the architectural and engineering firm that has put together the plans for the renovation of the Natatorium. Uh Ed, any thoughts real briefly at the end of the hour?

[00:54:50] Caller: Yeah. Yes, Randy. Uh the need for a standard has come up and and it is important. I'm looking at a letter dated March 13th, 1990 to Council member John Henry Felix, and it's signed by Dr. Anderson, and just to quote it simply, it says, "We do, however, have State Marine recreational water quality standards which which could apply to saltwater pools." It was that statement that was used by the state of Hawaii to uh design the pool uh a saltwater pool. As recently as last month uh in his comments on our 401 water quality certification application, uh Dr. Anderson called uh the waters, state waters. And if they're state waters, then it cannot be uh defined as a pool. Uh so the uh Marine recreational water quality standards are the appropriate standards for the war memorial. And uh they were the standards that the state of Hawaii used uh to design the restoration.

[00:55:04] Robert J. Fishman: Okay. Ed, I really appreciate your participation this morning. We're down to the last couple of minutes. Um, Bruce, why don't you take a minute and a half or so, and then we'll give Bob an equal amount of time. Go ahead.

[00:55:33] Bruce Anderson: Yeah, just so the listeners aren't confused. Um, if if Ed had read further into that letter, uh he would have said, read the the the statement I made that that the state water quality standards for recreational waters would not would not protect against staff infections. So uh, I was simply pointing out that there are standards, but they would not apply to this situation from the standpoint of protecting public health. Lastly, the uh the uh state waters statement refers to the groins. The 401 water quality certification was required as part of our approval of the groin construction offshore off the pool. But having said all that, Randy, um know that the health department is committed to seeing restoration of this facility occur. We're not trying to be obstructionist here, we're trying to be sure that the issues are dealt with effectively. It would be irresponsible for us to allow the pool to go forward knowing it will fail.

[00:56:16] Bruce Anderson: Imagine if we built a public library, and Bob, I think you'd be in this situation, and and we were saying to you the ventilation system wouldn't work. You wouldn't come back to us and say, "Well, we'll just close the library if it doesn't work." You'd say, "By God, get the ventilation system fixed. We want this thing to work for the public." It would be it would be callous and uh cavalier not to take that type of responsible attitude, and I think the city wants to take that attitude. What we're trying to do in this process, identify the concerns up front, so that they can be addressed effectively. I think other uses should be considered for this. I think the pool is obsolete. I think it's never going to be a venue for competitive swimming. I doubt seriously whether anyone's going to use it for recreational purposes.

[00:56:45] Bruce Anderson: It may serve well as a memorial, but let's face it, if it if it's if it's constructed the way it is now, it's largely going to be a reflecting pool and not effectively useful. I would love to see a pool built that served the public

[00:57:00] Speaker 1: interest better, or some venue created, which would serve the public interest and also honor the veterans. But we're committed to working with the city, they try to make this thing work. We we want the veterans to be honored. We'd also want to see the public's needs met. So um with that let me uh uh suggest that Bob have a few moments.

[00:57:59] Speaker 2: Okay, Bob, you got a few moments, minute and a half, go for it.

[00:58:11] Robert J. Fishman: Appreciate that Bruce. Even if we were only a reflecting pool, we don't see that we have the flexibility to redesign it if it's stated in the legislature as to what it will be. And point of fact, it's very specific in the law what it will be and the legislature has had many, many years to reconsider that and it hasn't. But it won't only be a reflecting pool. There are there are things that can be used in a pool and a salt water pool that you can't do in the ocean, water polo and uh and uh a swimming training for the disabled and uh lap swimming and a number of other things. But the bottom line is we have to do something proper and honorable here.

[00:59:23] Robert J. Fishman: We have a moral commitment that we need to respond to. I think for people who say that we should restore the beach, I'm looking at a photograph right now before the Natatorium when the Natatorium was first built, there was no beach at Sansousi. The beach accreted there because of the swimming pool, and I think that to restore the beach or to tear the the pool down at the cost of $10 to $11 million would be a terrible waste of money. We should do the right thing here and we should restore it the way that the legislature asked us to do.

[01:00:10] Speaker 2: That was Bob Fishman, who is the managing director of the City and County of Honolulu, and earlier you heard Bruce Anderson, Deputy Director of the State Department of Health. By phone with us, we had Ed Piskowski, who is the architect engineer for the renovation plans and Rick Bernstein with the Kaimana Beach Coalition. Our producer is Susie Roth, our technical wizard this morning, Philip Hutcheson. Next week we're going to be talking about budget decisions and their impact on the future of Hawaii. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show, I'm Randy Roth, Aloha.