Child Abuse in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-03-01
Guests: Janice Wolf (former Advertiser reporter; court-appointed attorney and guardian in family court cases); Keith Shigetomi (court-appointed attorney for parents in family court cases)
Duration: 1:05:00

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Hello, it's Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic this morning is one that is as timely as it is important. It has to do with the safety of children and the rights of parents. Specifically, how quick should society be to remove children from their homes, given an indication that the children's safety may be at risk?

[00:00:25] Randall Roth: Our topic this morning is one that is as timely as it is important. It has to do with the safety of children and the rights of parents. Specifically, how quick should society be to remove children from their homes, given an indication that the children's safety may be at risk? With me in the studio to talk about our topic is Janis Wolf and Keith Shigatomi. Janis was hired by the advertiser in 1968, fresh out of the University of Michigan. Over the next 14 years, she developed the advertisers' Human Affairs beat and became the first reporter in Hawaii to cover family court from the inside. In 1982, she went to law school at the University of Hawaii, Richardson School of Law, graduated in 1985. She went on to become director of the Hawaii State Judiciary. Currently, she's an attorney in private practice and we'll tell you a little bit more about what her practice consists of later in the show.

[00:01:02] Randall Roth: In 1982, she went to law school at the University of Hawaii, Richardson School of Law, graduated in 1985. She went on to become director of the Hawaii State Judiciary. Currently, she's an attorney in private practice and we'll tell you a little bit more about what her practice consists of later in the show. Keith Shigatomi was born in Honolulu. He received his bachelor's degree from Drake University and his law degree from the University of Hawaii Richardson School of Law. Keith represents parents in child protective services cases. He also acts as a guardian ad litem for children in family court. Janice, good morning.

[00:01:38] Janice Wolf: Good morning.

[00:01:39] Randall Roth: Um, could you real briefly give us some sense from your point of view of what it is that we're talking about this morning?

[00:01:48] Janice Wolf: Sure Randy. From my perspective, what we're talking about is the safety of children and what I call the ice age. Um, we're talking about the rights of children, um who have and my view, have no power and no control to be free from being punched and kicked, even killed, um free from having to spend the first month or months on life supports. This is what we're talking about, safety in an age when we have problems and drug problems that we never had in previous years.

[00:02:18] Randall Roth: And I guess nobody is against safety, but what is it specifically that you would be saying we as a society should be doing differently than what we've been doing to better provide safety?

[00:03:10] Janice Wolf: but what isn't and hasn't been there is the element of of of new drugs that have come on to the landscape and have added um an a degree of difficulty in terms of dealing with the problem and in terms of assessing the problem, because we're all neophytes.

[00:03:27] Randall Roth: So, when somebody like um like me reads in the newspaper about a baby ruban or or some tragic situation where a helpless child has been hurt badly or even killed, you're suggesting that that probably at the center of that story is is drug use and ice is the specific drug that you've mentioned as being a problem.

[00:03:49] Janice Wolf: I can't say that ice is a factor in every case. We have lots of cases where there is not ice. It's just an abuse case or a sex abuse case. What I am saying and I did go back and look at my caseload before writing the story for the advertiser, but I notice that in terms of all the parents I represent and in terms of the the kids that I represent as Guardian ad Litem, I would say approximately 80% now of my cases involve some use of ice, and that is a scary statistic to me.

[00:04:19] Randall Roth: Okay. Keith, I've I've read your article uh as well as Janice's article. Both of them appear on on page B1 of this morning's Honolulu Advertiser. It's in the Focus section. And in reading your article, I get the impression that you think there's a danger that our society will or maybe has overreacted in some way to to some of these more recent tragic stories of of children being hurt uh even killed.

[00:04:46] Keith Shigetomi: You know, I think it's it's uh natural that people are going to be concerned about children, but as you said, we need to be careful not to overreact and be blinded by emotion. What makes the system work is that you need to have balance. You can't side too much on one side or the other. And at at this time, you need to remember that we're dealing with very important rights of people that you want to take away a child from their own family, and I can't think of anything more intrusive on a person's life than that. And before we allow that to happen, we need to make sure that these people are provided an opportunity to prevent that from happening unnecessarily. And in what I advocate is that if they're going to make an allegation that someone has harmed their child, then they better prove it, rather than putting the the onus on the person to come forward and prove that they did not.

[00:05:16] Keith Shigetomi: And before we allow that to happen, we need to make sure that these people are provided an opportunity to prevent that from happening unnecessarily. And in what I advocate is that if they're going to make an allegation that someone has harmed their child, then they better prove it, rather than putting the the onus on the person to come forward and prove that they did not.

[00:05:40] Randall Roth: Now, this is probably simplistic on my part. Uh I know you and Janice have have similar practices where you represent both parents on occasion and you serve as guardians ad litem on behalf of as advocates for the the children on occasion. And and I both I see both of you as being very knowledgeable, very reasonable people. But to me, where it there seems to be a difference is that as I read your article and I listen to you talk, I get the impression that you're saying parental rights are are really important, almost sacred in our society and that we really as a society need to be careful that we don't take children away from their parents too quickly.

[00:06:01] Randall Roth: But to me, where it there seems to be a difference is that as I read your article and I listen to you talk, I get the impression that you're saying parental rights are are really important, almost sacred in our society and that we really as a society need to be careful that we don't take children away from their parents too quickly. And again, this is probably simplistic, but as I read Janice's article and listen to her talk, I get the impression that she says we as society, if we're going to air and and nothing's perfect, we really need to take kids away sooner rather than later. Um, Keith, what's your reaction to my description of of where the two of you differ?

[00:06:37] Randall Roth: Um, Keith, what's your reaction to my description of of where the two of you differ?

[00:06:43] Keith Shigetomi: I think we need to be careful about safety of children. There's no question about that, but I think what we need to remember is that we're dealing with a system that relies on human input. When when when a case comes to court, the the judge will rely almost solely on the uh information provided by a social worker. And it's the social worker who we need to make sure is properly trained, who is able to present a fair picture of what's actually happening in that particular case. And I think too often that's not always the the that doesn't always happen for reasons sometimes beyond the control of the social worker, such as case overload, um you know, too many too many things that they need to do at the same time.

[00:07:16] Keith Shigetomi: And I think too often that's not always the the that doesn't always happen for reasons sometimes beyond the control of the social worker, such as case overload, um you know, too many too many things that they need to do at the same time.

[00:07:31] Randall Roth: Let me ask Janis, because when I read Keith's piece in the paper, um it resonated with me this this picture that he paints of of somebody coming into my home and saying a person that that I can't confront has said that my children are in danger. And so, according to his article, my children could be forcibly taken from me even though I protest, my children protest, somebody that I can't confront has said those children are in danger. And it could take me a long time and cost me a lot of money to get my own children back. And as I read something like that, it resonates. And and I'm wondering if if you have a different reaction?

[00:08:08] Randall Roth: And as I read something like that, it resonates. And and I'm wondering if if you have a different reaction?

[00:08:15] Janice Wolf: Yeah, I do. I it's to I would say to a very little extent that that's theoretically possible. And probably if we talk about exceptions and extremes that possibly could happen, but there are safeguards that are built into the system. One of the safeguards is time. Um, the once a child is removed from the home, the state has essentially 48 hours to file a petition. That's like, do it or return. From the time the petition is filed, there's a 48 hour time period for it to get into court. What happens is that uh as soon as a petition comes into court, um the law provides for a guardian ad litem to be appointed for the child. The the guardian ad litem is an independent fact finder. The guardian ad litem's job is to go out and be that check and balance for this for the court to provide that information.

[00:08:47] Janice Wolf: What happens is that uh as soon as a petition comes into court, um the law provides for a guardian ad litem to be appointed for the child. The the guardian ad litem is an independent fact finder. The guardian ad litem's job is to go out and be that check and balance for this for the court to provide that information.

[00:09:08] Randall Roth: So they're they're not an advocate on quote the other side of the issue from the parents, they're there kind of as a a deputy judge almost to size up the situation?

[00:09:17] Janice Wolf: Right. The the actually what the guardian ad litem is is an independent fact finder. What the guardian ad litem does is advocate for the best interest of the child. And that's a big difference between what is in the best interest of the child and what the child wants. You can there's you can see that that what a child wants is not necessarily what is best for the child. And then the the other safeguard that's in place is the right to counsel. And a lot of people really don't realize that in child abuse, child neglect cases when a case comes into the family court, an indigent parent is entitled to court appointed counsel.

[00:09:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Well Keith, as I read Janis's piece, uh something that resonates with me and maybe it's just because I don't use ice. But she points out that this drug ice is at the center of so many of these problem cases. I'm saying to myself, uh number one, I agree with Janis when she says if a a baby is born and the indication is that the mother was using ice during the pregnancy, take that baby away immediately. Uh I could see if a parent tests positive for using ice and probably some other drugs too, but she mentions ice as being the single most um significant one in this area. I really kind of agree that we ought to take these kids away from those parents because if they're using ice, it seems to me that that alone means they're in danger. What's your reaction?

[00:10:33] Randall Roth: I really kind of agree that we ought to take these kids away from those parents because if they're using ice, it seems to me that that alone means they're in danger. What's your reaction?

[00:10:44] Keith Shigetomi: Well, I agree with you that if if a parent is using ice, that impairs their ability to parent well. When you're dealing with a situation where a child is born to a mother who tests positive for ice at the time of birth, and and the child also tests positive, I mean that's an easy case. You obviously you're going to remove that child. And you're going to make sure that before you return that child, that the mother has hopefully received the type of counseling and treatment that she needs. But again, that's that's too obvious a situation. With that, you have evidence to back up the fact that the child has been harmed. A a child who tests positive for uh for ice, obviously has been harmed.

[00:11:15] Keith Shigetomi: With that, you have evidence to back up the fact that the child has been harmed. A a child who tests positive for uh for ice, obviously has been harmed. We're looking at the situation that's not black and white. It's the gray areas that we need to ensure that people's rights are protect.

[00:11:30] Randall Roth: Give give me an example so that I can picture the sort of tough situation that you're uh describing.

[00:11:36] Keith Shigetomi: A typical example would be where a where a a child is harmed. Let's say they they have a broken arm and you know the child has been harmed. The question is how was that child harmed? And if everyone comes in and says, oh, my child was playing on the playground and fell and broke their arm. Oftentimes um the social worker may not believe that and they come in and they say, it's we don't think that that's the way that it happened. And because that's probably not the way that it happened, then the parents must be responsible and therefore we're going to remove the child from that parent with nothing more than, perhaps, a gut feeling. And and that's what we're trying to protect against.

[00:12:03] Keith Shigetomi: And because that's probably not the way that it happened, then the parents must be responsible and therefore we're going to remove the child from that parent with nothing more than, perhaps, a gut feeling. And and that's what we're trying to protect against.

[00:12:14] Janice Wolf: Jen, what's your reaction to that? My reaction had a case and I'm I don't want to give a lot of real specific details on it, but I had there I I know of a case that where um a child was brought to the emergency room with a broken arm and essentially that there was a question about how in in in terms of the parents' details of how they how the injuries occurred. Um, the child at the CPS was was consulted, the child was not taken, it the they they decided that the injuries were consistent, and there were some other injuries too, but the injuries were consistent with the stories that the parents told and they returned the child to the parents.

[00:12:36] Janice Wolf: Um, the child at the CPS was was consulted, the child was not taken, it the they they decided that the injuries were consistent, and there were some other injuries too, but the injuries were consistent with the stories that the parents told and they returned the child to the parents. The child recently was just got out of the hospital because it was a shaken baby and the the child was very seriously injured a second time as a result of uh the child having been returned. Now it's entirely possible, Keith, right, that the first injuries were unrelated to the shaken baby syndrome. However, what was found was that in um looking at the shaken baby scans, the second time there was evidence of earlier shaken baby, too.

[00:13:13] Janice Wolf: However, what was found was that in um looking at the shaken baby scans, the second time there was evidence of earlier shaken baby, too.

[00:13:23] Randall Roth: Well, let me ask you a question. If if in that first gray area situation as Keith described it, where we have a broken arm and we're really not sure how it happened. Would it be possible for child protective services to say to the parents, look, if you'll let us test to see whether you've been using drugs recently, and if you test negative, you haven't been, then we'll believe you. But if you refuse to be tested or you test positive, then we're going to remove the child. Is that something one that could be done? Is it sometimes done? What are the problems with that?

[00:13:56] Janice Wolf: Well, ironically in the case that I was just talking about, it wasn't a drug case at all. And um so I But most of the times these people are tested. At at least in the in the hospital situations, an awful lot of them really are tested, you know, that's how certainly with the newborn babies, that's how the the ice or the problem is detected. It's not just because the baby has an injury.

[00:14:45] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, for the folks who've tuned in late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. I'm here in the studio with Janis Wolf and Keith Shigatomi and we're talking about the protection of children versus parental rights, specifically just how quickly should children be removed from their homes given an indication that their safety may be in jeopardy. We'd like to hear from you. If you've got a question or a comment, give us a call at 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. We would also encourage you to watch uh Channel 9 News tonight at 6:10. We have Tasha Koba uh Kobayashi. I'm sorry Tasha. I can't read my own writing here. Um she's here from Channel 9 along with Dominic the cameraman, and uh that'll be at 6 and at 10. And uh hopefully uh we'll have the names all straightened out by then or my handwriting by then.

[00:15:21] Randall Roth: We would also encourage you to watch uh Channel 9 News tonight at 6:10. We have Tasha Koba uh Kobayashi. I'm sorry Tasha. I can't read my own writing here. Um she's here from Channel 9 along with Dominic the cameraman, and uh that'll be at 6 and at 10. And uh hopefully uh we'll have the names all straightened out by then or my handwriting by then. Again, our phone number is 955-8821 or 1-800-955-8821. Uh Janis, you and Keith both are practicing lawyers. Uh just happens that you both graduated from the University of Hawaii William S. Richardson School of Law, but the practice that each of you has has you on various sides of these controversies. You each have served as guardian ad litems for the children themselves, and as attorneys and therefore advocates of of the parents. Um as an insider, somebody who sees hundreds of these cases, anything to add over and above what we've already said before we start taking calls?

[00:16:11] Randall Roth: You each have served as guardian ad litems for the children themselves, and as attorneys and therefore advocates of of the parents. Um as an insider, somebody who sees hundreds of these cases, anything to add over and above what we've already said before we start taking calls?

[00:16:29] Janice Wolf: Well, one thing I can say that I did agree with Keith on is that so much of the direction a case takes depends on the on the luck or the the ill luck, as it may be, the social worker. Whether they're from in my experience, I think Keith is essentially saying the same thing is that a lot of times it doesn't seem logical when a decision is made to pull a child and when a decision is made to leave a child in the home. And maybe this comes from assessment, maybe this comes from training, maybe this comes from the need for more um standardized policies, but you know, there's a a little groups of social workers that are assigned to different units within the Department of Human Services, and whether a case goes with what they call family supervision, which means leaving the child in the home and putting services into the home, or pulling the child, really depends to a large extent on who the social worker is and what the philosophy of the social worker is.

[00:16:54] Janice Wolf: And maybe this comes from assessment, maybe this comes from training, maybe this comes from the need for more um standardized policies, but you know, there's a a little groups of social workers that are assigned to different units within the Department of Human Services, and whether a case goes with what they call family supervision, which means leaving the child in the home and putting services into the home, or pulling the child, really depends to a large extent on who the social worker is and what the philosophy of the social worker is. And and sometimes quite frankly, it does defy logic. And I would say that the same is also true for decisions to return children to to a home.

[00:17:23] Janice Wolf: And and sometimes quite frankly, it does defy logic. And I would say that the same is also true for decisions to return children to to a home.

[00:17:30] Randall Roth: Keith, I know from your article in this morning's newspaper, you suggested that there is, in your opinion, also this tremendous variance from one social worker from another. Uh I think everybody would agree we need to have training and we need to have, you know, all sorts of those wonderful things. But how do you get it? If we don't have it now, if it varies tremendously and we have obvious errors in judgment, at least as described in your article this morning, how do we change that?

[00:17:55] Keith Shigetomi: I think we have to make a decision that we're going to invest in our future, and our future is the children. And as Janis said, you know, we need to we need to we don't need to well, Janis didn't say this, but I think we don't need to change the system, we need to improve the people involved in the system. And one of the things that that happened in January was that the family court put on a training uh seminar, not only for the attorneys and guardian ad litems, but also for social workers and all the other service providers in our community to to help get everyone focused on what our problems are and how how we deal with them.

[00:18:10] Keith Shigetomi: And one of the things that that happened in January was that the family court put on a training uh seminar, not only for the attorneys and guardian ad litems, but also for social workers and all the other service providers in our community to to help get everyone focused on what our problems are and how how we deal with them.

[00:18:28] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, our number again is 955-8821. Our first caller is Malcolm from Tantalus. Good morning, Malcolm.

[00:18:36] Caller: Malcolm, can you hear me? two questions for your panelists. I'd like to ask, first of all, what, how many cases are we talking about a year in Hawaii and overtime? Has it been growing or decreasing?

[00:18:49] Randall Roth: And Malcolm, let let me ask them that question, but what what do you mean by how many cases? Cases of child abuse?

[00:18:56] Caller: Well, yes. By um, let's see.

[00:19:00] Speaker 1: by some other measure than than the system adopts like uh like hospitals identify abused children so that we have some more objective measure.

[00:19:10] Keith Shigetomi: Okay. Keith, just how how do we get our arms around the the magnitude of the issue? Is there some attempt to quantify the problem?

[00:19:20] Speaker 2: There that the Family court keeps statistics. I'm not aware of the statistics, but I would agree with Janice that you're seeing an increasing number of methamphetamine cases in which that is a problem for either the family, the parents, or in terms of the child being born positive for that drug in the system.

[00:19:36] Keith Shigetomi: And and that's what people sometimes call ice? Yes. Okay.

[00:19:39] Janice Wolf: Malcolm, let me try to take a stab. I don't have the exact numbers back but back in 1978 when I did my series of articles for the advertiser on the family court, um, I recall them telling me that there were approximately 20 cases a month coming into the family court on on the child abuse and neglect calendar. In 1998, presently, I I know I have a contract with the judiciary to provide Guardian Adlitem services to children in the contract uh with with several other people, not on my own, but was for 100 cases, for the for a block of 100 cases that came in. We got our first of the 100 cases on uh on approximately August 27th, August 28th in there, and we got the last of the of of our 100 cases um in the big I think the very last day of November, the very first day or two of December.

[00:20:18] Janice Wolf: We got our first of the 100 cases on uh on approximately August 27th, August 28th in there, and we got the last of the of of our 100 cases um in the big I think the very last day of November, the very first day or two of December.

[00:20:37] Keith Shigetomi: So obviously the problem has as dramatically increased in numbers?

[00:20:42] Janice Wolf: It has. I I think it has increased and those were just the cases that we took. It didn't um include the cases that went to um other Guardians Adlitem, either that we were conflicted out of handling, or where there were other where the case was already active in the system, and it was a re-abuse of a sibling and it went to the Guardian Adlitem that handled it before. So, I would say the numbers that I'm giving are a little bit on the low side.

[00:21:06] Keith Shigetomi: Back to you, Malcolm.

[00:21:07] Caller: Okay. Um, I guess that's a a large part of the answer for that. Um the other questions relate to the the structure of our system. Parents, it seems to me and children come and go, but the social workers and your Guardian Adlitem and court are going to be working with each other over a long term basis. So the your uh assumption it seems to me that the Guardian Adlitems are going to be working for the children is or you said they're different from the courts, they're going to be working for the children, but that's that's a statement of their intent. It's not a it's not built into the system. It seems if they live with each other over a long term, they're going to kind of get to grow into each other.

[00:21:51] Caller: It seems if they live with each other over a long term, they're going to kind of get to grow into each other. I mean we haven't we seen numerous incidents incidents on the mainland like that prosecution in Washington um Wenatchee, was it? Where where the social workers I guess are paid by the client and so it's in their interest to pump up their statistics. And why why wouldn't this happen to the to the Guardian Adlitem agencies too?

[00:22:19] Janice Wolf: Okay. May I take us maybe Keith can add to this but a couple of things number one parents don't come and go as I wish parents would go a lot quicker because it would mean that this the the the cases were getting out of the out of the system. Unfortunately they don't go that fast. What we find is that we have families with seven or eight children and we just kind of keep moving them through. It seems like we have and I think you'll agree to this Keith, that we have we we know sooner have three or four siblings than we have five, six, seven. I've had cases where we've had seven, eight and nine children in a family. So they don't go that fast.

[00:22:34] Janice Wolf: What we find is that we have families with seven or eight children and we just kind of keep moving them through. It seems like we have and I think you'll agree to this Keith, that we have we we know sooner have three or four siblings than we have five, six, seven. I've had cases where we've had seven, eight and nine children in a family. So they don't go that fast. Our our money is paid and the social workers are paid by the state. They're not paid by the private by anybody in in any private client or any anybody that comes into the system. And the same with the Guardians Adlitem. The Guardians Adlitem are paid by the judiciary. Their money comes out of the judiciary budget, not out of the the social services budget and believe me we there are times when when the Guardians Adlitem and the social workers do agree but there are an awful lot of times when we don't agree.

[00:22:57] Janice Wolf: Our our money is paid and the social workers are paid by the state. They're not paid by the private by anybody in in any private client or any anybody that comes into the system. And the same with the Guardians Adlitem. The Guardians Adlitem are paid by the judiciary. Their money comes out of the judiciary budget, not out of the the social services budget and believe me we there are times when when the Guardians Adlitem and the social workers do agree but there are an awful lot of times when we don't agree. And and that's a pretty fair assessment I think.

[00:23:31] Keith Shigetomi: Malcolm, this is is Randy Roth. As I was listening to your question, um I get the impression that that you think that perhaps the people who are involved in the system are exaggerating the problem and that that perhaps um this is a situation where where the people who earn a living uh working in the system would uh would just assume that the system continue to to demand their skills and time etcetera. Is that your point?

[00:23:59] Caller: Yeah, um, I've we've seen uh two related incidents um examples of this in the discussion of juvenile crime here and uh and the female juvenile crime rate uh in the advertiser recently. Um I the uh female juvenile crime rate, well the juvenile crime rate in Hawaii is very low, and the violent juvenile crime rate is very low. The female rate is closer to the male rate than it is on the mainland and on the mainland it's males are say four times as likely here they're only three times as likely. And this was represented as a as a a terrible thing that that females are nearly as, you know, our our female crime rate is high, they said, juvenile female crime rate is high. And it in fact is low. And the other was uh this um juvenile crime after school.

[00:24:29] Caller: The female rate is closer to the male rate than it is on the mainland and on the mainland it's males are say four times as likely here they're only three times as likely. And this was represented as a as a a terrible thing that that females are nearly as, you know, our our female crime rate is high, they said, juvenile female crime rate is high. And it in fact is low. And the other was uh this um juvenile crime after school. Um, again our juvenile crime rate's very low.

[00:25:02] Keith Shigetomi: Okay. Malcolm, I I'm going to have to move on. I think you've you've made your point.

[00:25:06] Caller: Can I can I just say this. Sure. Um, the the state is going to experience budget cutbacks. It looks like. Uh we're in for it, and my um in my picture of what's happening is that social service agencies are scrambling for uh to get a a grip on a piece of that budget before it's taken away from them.

[00:25:27] Keith Shigetomi: Okay. Well, I think you've made your point very well. I appreciate your call, Malcolm. We go to Mary from the Big Island. Good morning, Mary.

[00:25:34] Caller: Good morning. Um I had three comments that I wanted to make and then I don't it's not really questions and then have uh your panelists discuss it. Um the first one is just a small one but I think it's an important one. Um Keith mentioned uh social worker overload and with case loads and I've been a foster parent now for several years and I would like to know if there's a single social worker in this state whose caseload is not overloaded because I have yet to meet them. Um and I think that's something we're not seriously addressing. Um the second comment that I had to make was in regards to negative drug drug tests when you are um making a decision whether or not a child is in a dangerous situation. And I'd like to point out to those of us who are not part of the drug culture that a negative drug test can be basically useless. There are um teas and uh other devices that one can use to produce a negative drug test and keep right on using and a positive drug test may be a measure of something that's going on but a negative drug test is not necessarily a measure of what is not going on.

[00:26:08] Caller: Um the second comment that I had to make was in regards to negative drug drug tests when you are um making a decision whether or not a child is in a dangerous situation. And I'd like to point out to those of us who are not part of the drug culture that a negative drug test can be basically useless. There are um teas and uh other devices that one can use to produce a negative drug test and keep right on using and a positive drug test may be a measure of something that's going on but a negative drug test is not necessarily a measure of what is not going on. The third uh point I'd like to make is that our um cultural custom of parental rights being a basic gut issue was developed in this culture before the drug era. And um the situation now is different and of course our customs haven't caught up to it. And when I say drug era I it's not just ice that worries me. I see a lot as a foster parent I see a lot of cocaine and alcohol abuse involved in these situations. And I would like to suggest that perhaps the parents who are doing drugs have already put the child's welfare way behind uh the drugs and that the the situation has changed and our way of looking at it is perhaps going to have to change to reflect that.

[00:26:47] Caller: The third uh point I'd like to make is that our um cultural custom of parental rights being a basic gut issue was developed in this culture before the drug era. And um the situation now is different and of course our customs haven't caught up to it. And when I say drug era I it's not just ice that worries me. I see a lot as a foster parent I see a lot of cocaine and alcohol abuse involved in these situations. And I would like to suggest that perhaps the parents who are doing drugs have already put the child's welfare way behind uh the drugs and that the the situation has changed and our way of looking at it is perhaps going to have to change to reflect that.

[00:27:34] Keith Shigetomi: So Mary, you're saying we need to be very vigilant of parental use of drugs and be relatively quick to to remove the children from those homes?

[00:27:42] Caller: In an awful lot of cases. I've watched families in my community who abuse uh drugs and their children and failed to protect their children as a result of the drugs and it went on for years before CPS finally was able to prove something in court and take the kids out. And after years of that abuse, significant damage and perhaps irreversible damage had been done to the children.

[00:28:09] Keith Shigetomi: Well, Mary, what what's the answer in your opinion, if social workers are already overloaded and the budget is is getting smaller rather than bigger, and if we have trouble determining which parents are on drugs, and you know we listened everything you're saying and it resonates with me. What's the answer?

[00:28:28] Caller: Um, uh, no one single answer or general answer but I I'm disturbed when we cut money out that would uh supply more social workers and supply more training for social workers and yet we can put up a uh convention center on Oahu and we can put a big Kowa desk in the legislature and so on and so forth. Uh I think we've got our our priorities skewed when our children are are less important than that. Okay. We must put more money not less into the the the safety net for our children.

[00:34:30] Janice Wolf: or or whatever these tea are toxic cleansers. You can get them in any health food store. Um, one of the indications if you look for it on the test is that you'll get a completely clean screen and people in our everyday environment don't have a completely clean screen if you test them because we live in a polluted environment, even here in Hawaii.

[00:34:53] Keith Shigetomi: Okay. Mary, I'm I'm going to have to move on. I appreciate your call.

[00:34:56] Caller: Certainly, thank you.

[00:34:58] Keith Shigetomi: Um Keith, Janice, we've got some people on the line waiting and we could go right to them. Is there anything that Mary said that that triggered uh a thought that you want to share right away? Um Keith? Well, I agree that I think we need to invest in our children because if we don't, we'll pay the price later and we're seeing it now with the uh the the call for more prison space and that type of thing. Okay. Uh let's move on to John from Makiki. Good morning, John.

[00:35:23] Caller: Good morning, sir. Randy and the guest. Good morning.

[00:35:27] Keith Shigetomi: Hey, let's take our gloves off and get really in the mark, you know. Why not?

[00:35:31] Caller: Uh first of all, in all your cases, how many of them would be single parents?

[00:35:39] Janice Wolf: Probably the vast majority of them, although, um as a although many of them have partners, um I agree, I agree. So but the fact is, you've got a lot of single parents out there.

[00:35:51] Caller: Right, abusing their kids. How many of these people work? Percentages. We're going right down to the moral fiber of this whole people of America.

[00:36:04] Keith Shigetomi: Yeah, John, let me get a let me get an answer to your last question, because I'm really curious, uh Janice and Keith, and I know your job isn't to keep statistics, but you're there every day, what's your impression?

[00:36:13] Janice Wolf: My well, anecdotally, I would say that um a a great majority don't work or work at levels that still put them at a level that qualifies them for court appointed assistance because in most of the cases that do come into court and that's that's how I would measure economics is that I would say most of the most of the cases that um come into the court involve appointment of counsel by the court.

[00:36:40] Keith Shigetomi: So they're they're probably on on some form of welfare.

[00:36:44] Janice Wolf: I would say, or either welfare, or some kind of general assistance, or sometimes nothing, sometimes sometimes very minimal because of because actually because of drug impairments, it's very difficult for for some people to hold jobs. The issue is not only just being the single parent abusing their kids though, because a lot in in many many of these cases, there's a partner and it's the partner that is um a contributor, if not um the abuser is at least the major um factor in the abuse. There is there is somebody other than than the parent in the house that is part and parcel of the problem. So it's a little bit more difficult to separate out than to just say single parents are the abusers.

[00:37:21] Janice Wolf: So it's a little bit more difficult to separate out than to just say single parents are the abusers.

[00:37:27] Keith Shigetomi: John, why don't you finish up your comment?

[00:37:29] Caller: All right. So besides investing in our children for the future, which after all, me being a foster child, uh I go through the system before all these fancy laws about pinching an ear and call the police. Now, I would think that if we really want to invest in the children for the future, we got to rip them out of the house first, because the parents' lives are spent, they're not going to change, and if they change, then they can have the kids back like changing a store.

[00:37:58] Keith Shigetomi: But John, how do we know

[00:38:00] Randall Roth: know which homes are so unsafe that we need to rip the kids out of there very quickly. Keith's comment, I think, is that it's easy for somebody to make the accusation, and we really shouldn't be ripping kids out of the arms of good parents.

[00:38:16] Unidentified Male: But we give too much slack on the ropes, because most times, quote, it's a woman, and therefore they get the slack, and men get thrown out of the house, the whole deal. But in women's world, they have so much slack, so much goes on, and the first thing that is said is, we're doing this for the sake of the child. That's a bunch of BS.

[00:38:40] Randall Roth: Okay, John, I think you've made your point. Have a nice day. Real well, appreciate your call. In case you turned in late, tuned in late, this is Randy Ross. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I have with me Janice Wolfe, who was hired by the advertiser in 1968, fresh out of the University of Michigan. Over the next 14 years, she developed the advertiser's human affairs beat, and became the first reporter in Hawaii to cover family court from the inside. She's a graduate of the University of Hawaii, William S. Richardson School of Law. She's been the director of the Hawaii State Judiciary. Currently, she's an attorney in private practice, where, among other things, she serves as guardian ad litem for children in the family court.

[00:39:03] Randall Roth: She's a graduate of the University of Hawaii, William S. Richardson School of Law. She's been the director of the Hawaii State Judiciary. Currently, she's an attorney in private practice, where, among other things, she serves as guardian ad litem for children in the family court. Keith Shigotomi was born in Honolulu, received his bachelor's degree from Drake University, and he, too, has a law degree from the University of Hawaii, Richard Richard Richardson School of Law. Keith represents parents in child protective service cases, as well as serving as a guardian ad litem for children in the family court. We're talking about the protection of children versus the rights of parents. And we have some people who have been waiting patiently, and we're going to get to them in just a moment. But we do have a couple of open lines, and our phone number is 955-8821, or from a neighbor island, 1-800-955-8821.

[00:39:36] Randall Roth: We're talking about the protection of children versus the rights of parents. And we have some people who have been waiting patiently, and we're going to get to them in just a moment. But we do have a couple of open lines, and our phone number is 955-8821, or from a neighbor island, 1-800-955-8821. Uh, watch Channel 9 News tonight at 6 and 10. Tasha Kabashigawa is here along with Dominic, the cameraman, and they're going to be doing a report that we think will appear tonight at 6 and 10. Also, if you tuned in late and you'd like to catch the show in its entirety, it will be rebroadcast tonight on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, beginning at 8 o'clock tonight.

[00:39:57] Randall Roth: Uh, watch Channel 9 News tonight at 6 and 10. Tasha Kabashigawa is here along with Dominic, the cameraman, and they're going to be doing a report that we think will appear tonight at 6 and 10. Also, if you tuned in late and you'd like to catch the show in its entirety, it will be rebroadcast tonight on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, beginning at 8 o'clock tonight. We go to our callers, Lee in Kaimuki. Good morning, Lee.

[00:40:25] Caller: Hi, good morning. Um, I've been enjoying this. And, uh, I have I have the, um, unique position right now of working with women who are coming out of prison, many of whom are former ice addicts, and many most are parents. And I think what I want to say at this point, and I have also worked in domestic violence for a very long period of time and child abuse and neglect on Maui, Molokai, and Lanai. And, um, what I want to say is that in my dealing with these women, I disagree completely with what John said when he said that in the women's world, there's a lot of slack. I believe that, um, from working so maybe 15 years with women who have been victimized over and over in violence, uh, situations, sex abuse, etc., that I see women going to drugs after the system has failed them miserably over and over and over. And these are generally women who are impoverished, who have experienced incredible racism in their lives. Many oppressive forces work against these women.

[00:40:59] Caller: I believe that, um, from working so maybe 15 years with women who have been victimized over and over in violence, uh, situations, sex abuse, etc., that I see women going to drugs after the system has failed them miserably over and over and over. And these are generally women who are impoverished, who have experienced incredible racism in their lives. Many oppressive forces work against these women. And what I'm worried about, I I believe completely in the protection of children and that that is our first priority, so I agree with everything that the guests have said in terms of separating the children from the families. But I believe that we need to pop out and get a big picture and look at why this is happening at such an increased rate right now, um, in Hawaii, uh, and begin to also address the needs of these parents, which are extreme.

[00:41:26] Caller: And what I'm worried about, I I believe completely in the protection of children and that that is our first priority, so I agree with everything that the guests have said in terms of separating the children from the families. But I believe that we need to pop out and get a big picture and look at why this is happening at such an increased rate right now, um, in Hawaii, uh, and begin to also address the needs of these parents, which are extreme. And I think that to continue to criminalize the actions of many of these individuals who I mean, I believe what they have done in many cases is criminal, but it is but the motivations behind it, the reasons for it, we have failed these people as well. And I think that in many cases, we need to not criminalize, we need to give, um, treatment on demand. We need to take seriously the poverty that exists, um, in our island chain, that we need to start looking at the big picture.

[00:41:55] Caller: And I think that to continue to criminalize the actions of many of these individuals who I mean, I believe what they have done in many cases is criminal, but it is but the motivations behind it, the reasons for it, we have failed these people as well. And I think that in many cases, we need to not criminalize, we need to give, um, treatment on demand. We need to take seriously the poverty that exists, um, in our island chain, that we need to start looking at the big picture.

[00:42:27] Randall Roth: Okay.

[00:42:28] Caller: And look at some moral issues about, um, how we treat the people that our systems have failed over and over and over again.

[00:42:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Lee, appreciate your call. Thank you. We go to a Rick from Waikiki. Good morning, Rick.

[00:42:40] Caller: Good morning. I have two comments, uh, about previous callers' uh, comments earlier in the show, and I believe single parents really don't single, being a single parent doesn't play a big role because I grew up as a with a single parent, and of course my mom was on welfare, but when I got to high school, she came off welfare and she got a job when she knew I was old enough to take care of myself and she relayed good skill to me as being a parent. I am now 27 years old, I have three kids, and I believe that when they make the comment about how to help all this, has to come down to education and family values. And I think education is probably the biggest part.

[00:43:07] Caller: I am now 27 years old, I have three kids, and I believe that when they make the comment about how to help all this, has to come down to education and family values. And I think education is probably the biggest part.

[00:43:20] Randall Roth: Okay. Rick, we appreciate your call. Thank you. We go to Anne on the Big Island. Good morning, Anne.

[00:43:25] Caller: Good morning. I your show is so great. Um, I have a comment about the goal or the overriding, um, philosophy of the social work business. I'm afraid that sometimes when they put the the, uh, institution of the family ahead of the good of the children, the children suffer. And uh, we friends of ours who are foster parents right now were saying that their social worker said they their major goal is to reunite the children with their original parents and I think some of because of the conditions on our island, the, um, economy is so bad and some of the people are so depressed and everything, I guess they go to drugs and if they're unrelenting drug users, I don't think the children are going to profit from being back with them while they're in their young their school years.

[00:43:44] Caller: And uh, we friends of ours who are foster parents right now were saying that their social worker said they their major goal is to reunite the children with their original parents and I think some of because of the conditions on our island, the, um, economy is so bad and some of the people are so depressed and everything, I guess they go to drugs and if they're unrelenting drug users, I don't think the children are going to profit from being back with them while they're in their young their school years. They're not getting the support they need for their studies and stuff and I think they need to be with someone else who can give them the right kind of support and moral training. Thank you very much.

[00:44:12] Caller: They're not getting the support they need for their studies and stuff and I think they need to be with someone else who can give them the right kind of support and moral training. Thank you very much.

[00:44:21] Randall Roth: Thank you, Anne. Appreciate it. Um, Keith and Janice, as as I listen to the callers, and and I listen to the two of you, um, it's hard for me to disagree with most of what's being said, and yet I don't feel like I'm getting a sense for just how we can make this situation better. Of course if we had more money, better training, better education, better morals, etc., but I'm thinking as a as a practical matter, how do we how do we do something, and this will show my impatience, my immaturity, how do we do something that relatively quickly and in a tangible sort of way is going to make things better for the kids without doing great damage to the rights of of the parents. Keith, any thoughts on that?

[00:44:39] Randall Roth: Of course if we had more money, better training, better education, better morals, etc., but I'm thinking as a as a practical matter, how do we how do we do something, and this will show my impatience, my immaturity, how do we do something that relatively quickly and in a tangible sort of way is going to make things better for the kids without doing great damage to the rights of of the parents. Keith, any thoughts on that?

[00:45:08] Keith Shigetomi: I think no matter what we do, it's going to take time, and we have to understand that we need to make that decision that it's going to be an important one for us to invest time and effort into. In terms of what can we do immediately, we just have to take it one case at a time. I mean that's all we can do, and each of us involved in the system has to look at that one case and figure out the best way that we can serve the family, because that's what we're trying to do. Even as as the the attorney for the parents, you're not going to say, in an unsafe situation, hey, you should you should have the child come home. What you're trying to do is to put the parents on a path to so that they can prevent so that they can provide that safe home and encourage them in in a social work type of way to say, hey, you know, remember, these are your children. You want them in your home. They want to be in your home. Let's make it work for everyone.

[00:45:34] Keith Shigetomi: Even as as the the attorney for the parents, you're not going to say, in an unsafe situation, hey, you should you should have the child come home. What you're trying to do is to put the parents on a path to so that they can prevent so that they can provide that safe home and encourage them in in a social work type of way to say, hey, you know, remember, these are your children. You want them in your home. They want to be in your home. Let's make it work for everyone.

[00:46:01] Janice Wolf: Janice? Well, as as the former administrative director of the judiciary and having worked at the legislature also, I understand what budget means, and I understand what it means to have to, um, make dollars go to a whole lot of different things. However, I think you know, in my cynical self wants to take at least one drug-exposed baby and send him or her home with Norman Missiguchi, the Senate President, send a drug-exposed baby home with Calvin Say, the House finance chair, send a drug-exposed baby home with representative Joe Suki, the speaker of the house and let them have to care for a drug-exposed baby for one night, and have to console a baby that is inconsolable, take care of a baby that is suffering the effects of um, prenatal drug abuse and then let them make some hard decisions.

[00:46:16] Janice Wolf: However, I think you know, in my cynical self wants to take at least one drug-exposed baby and send him or her home with Norman Missiguchi, the Senate President, send a drug-exposed baby home with Calvin Say, the House finance chair, send a drug-exposed baby home with representative Joe Suki, the speaker of the house and let them have to care for a drug-exposed baby for one night, and have to console a baby that is inconsolable, take care of a baby that is suffering the effects of um, prenatal drug abuse and then let them make some hard decisions.

[00:46:57] Randall Roth: And that you think would would affect their priorities?

[00:46:59] Janice Wolf: I think that it would. I think I would like to think that it would. I think that um, I think it's very hard for any of us who are in the field and have seen the children on the intensive care, have seen kids on life support, who've seen kids with bruises and and have seen kids who haven't been fed and who have seen kids um that are seriously injured. I got a case where the first time when where I inherited a case where a child was um some surviving siblings and the first time I had I had seen one of the children was in a 3-year-old child was in his coffin at his funeral, and that is a sight that one never forgets. And I think that we're all moved um, in ways when when tragedy takes on human features and human faces and are not just statistics on a on a drawing board.

[00:47:20] Janice Wolf: I got a case where the first time when where I inherited a case where a child was um some surviving siblings and the first time I had I had seen one of the children was in a 3-year-old child was in his coffin at his funeral, and that is a sight that one never forgets. And I think that we're all moved um, in ways when when tragedy takes on human features and human faces and are not just statistics on a on a drawing board.

[00:47:45] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's go to a couple callers. Uh, Teresa from Makaha. Good morning, Teresa.

[00:47:49] Caller: Good morning, Ralph. Thank you for taking my call. Mhm. Uh, I'm a retired nurse and I I'm really appreciating what you're talking about. Recently, I was listening to Bob Hoag's program on child abuse and there was a case I think it was in January or February, uh, where there was a uh, a child, uh, in the hospital because of um, and I think the child was very seriously ill, um, because of the abuse, and they were talking about social workers. And I think one of your callers mentioned how overburdened maybe the social workers are. But the social worker in that case, um, uh, was carrying 40 cases. And what my thought is, as a nurse, uh, we were giving coping coping classes for stress, and I'm wondering if the supervisor, I presume they have a supervisor, these social workers, if they feel encouraged to speak to her or him? Uh, do they, or do they just feel like they have to, uh, take whatever they get and they can't discuss it, or, you know, that there isn't any outlet for their stress or do they give them coping classes where they can

[00:48:23] Caller: But the social worker in that case, um, uh, was carrying 40 cases. And what my thought is, as a nurse, uh, we were giving coping coping classes for stress, and I'm wondering if the supervisor, I presume they have a supervisor, these social workers, if they feel encouraged to speak to her or him? Uh, do they, or do they just feel like they have to, uh, take whatever they get and they can't discuss it, or, you know, that there isn't any outlet for their stress or do they give them coping classes where they can that, you know, work they're working in the service of people. So they really need this. Like police officers do and nurses do, you know, anybody who's in the service of people and especially when they're dealing with such heartrending cases.

[00:48:59] Caller: that, you know, work they're working in the service of people. So they really need this. Like police officers do and nurses do, you know, anybody who's in the service of people and especially when they're dealing with such heartrending cases.

[00:49:14] Randall Roth: Teresa, um, why don't we and and I think there's time yet. Let's encourage any social workers who are listening to the show. That's what would be very good, you know, because everybody is uh on that on that program, there was a lot of um um, there was kind of like down talk about social workers. Okay, well they they need to they need to be encouraged to get help too. Okay, we're running out of time until Okay, thank you. Oh, thank you. But I want to encourage social workers if any of you are listening and have something to say about what it's like out there in the trenches doing this job, uh, please call us at 955-8821, identify yourself as a social worker and we'll make sure everyone can hear your voice by the end of this show. The number again is 955-8821. Janice, did you have any thoughts about what Teresa was saying?

[00:50:00] Janice Wolf: Yeah, and actually I have one other one other comment that I wanted to make when you, uh, based on what you asked before about what what kinds of quick and dirty things we can do. One of the suggestions that I thought was a great suggestion, actually came from a mother, um, who had shaken her baby. And and what she and I think part of it, especially with shaken baby syndrome, which we're just learning about now and hearing about now, is not done out of malice. A lot of times it's done out of ignorance. People don't know how how hurt a baby can be by by shaking it. And one of the things that she suggested was that in the in the course of doing her parenting classes that was required that were required of her as a court, um, services was to see a video on shaken baby syndrome and the consequences of doing that. And her suggestion was that the video be made available in schools, that the video be made available in OBGYN offices, that the video be made available in prenatal clinics, at at the hospitals that that have clinics, and that we can do a lot to educate people while they are pregnant as to what to avoid. And this isn't going to take care of all the problems, but it is going to take care of some of the problems that just are born about just because people just don't know.

[00:50:17] Janice Wolf: and what she and I think part of it, especially with shaken baby syndrome, which we're just learning about now and hearing about now, is not done out of malice. A lot of times it's done out of ignorance. People don't know how how hurt a baby can be by by shaking it. And one of the things that she suggested was that in the in the course of doing her parenting classes that was required that were required of her as a court, um, services was to see a video on shaken baby syndrome and the consequences of doing that. And her suggestion was that the video be made available in schools, that the video be made available in OBGYN offices, that the video be made available in prenatal clinics, at at the hospitals that that have clinics, and that we can do a lot to educate people while they are pregnant as to what to avoid. And this isn't going to take care of all the problems, but it is going to take care of some of the problems that just are born about just because people just don't know.

[00:51:18] Randall Roth: Okay. I'm going to get to everyone who's called, but we just got a call from uh, from a social worker and so I'm going to take that person right away. It's Jerry from Honolulu. Good morning, Jerry.

[00:51:28] Caller: Hi, um I I I guess I'm well you asked for a short-term fix. And and I think that that you you would be the kind of person that could really contribute to that. And the short-term fix is somebody has to sue the department the way they've done on uh suing for children's mental health, which was allowed to go down to zero funding, the way they did with the state hospital, the way they've done for prisoners. Um, the the the familiar system, the idea that we even have social workers taking care of people is is has long since passed, that just doesn't happen anymore.

[00:52:07] Randall Roth: Jerry, are are you suggesting that that from the social workers' point of view, there just isn't the kind of support that you would need in order to be productive?

[00:52:17] Caller: Lobbying and rational talk has just doesn't work anymore. That that they they there were cuts last year, there were cuts the year before, there big cuts coming this year, and that doesn't that doesn't allow to us to build up a a team of dedicated professionals. We're we're we're patchwork working with paraprofessionals. We've got the smallest possible amount of poorly trained. The people the people in there are dedicated. It's beyond me. I can't stay in it myself. I just can't do it. I can't go in a system where the judges ignore the the abuse to children that not only in not only in homes, but in the the the correctional facilities, uh, the mental health facilities. That People just have to be sued to be brought around to do something that's even beginning to be right.

[00:53:10] Randall Roth: So, Jerry, from from your point of view as a social worker, you're disappointed with the court, you're disappointed with the legislature. You're feeling overburdened. You're feeling At least it sounds to me like you're feeling like you're not really equipped to begin to a deal effectively with the problem.

[00:53:29] Caller: There aren't enough there's not enough people not enough money, um, and and and Okay, let's there's just consistent cutbacks where where support is needed. Okay. Jerry, I'm going to get a reaction all of that from Keith and Janice, and I've got a couple more callers we're going to get to. Thank you very much, Jerry. I do have I do have to say that that lawyers would help. Lawyers would help. That's the only place that's helped with social services lately. Thank you.

[00:53:56] Randall Roth: Okay. Well we've got a couple lawyers here. Uh, I bet you've got a lot of reactions to what Jerry was just saying. Um, let's start with Keith and then I want to go to Janice and we've got a caller or two that we'll get to yet, but Keith, your reaction to our social workers' comments?

[00:54:11] Keith Shigetomi: I think you are starting to see lawsuits. There was a big lawsuit on Maui as to what the department did in that case. You're seeing some lawsuits come out of the the two recent tragedies that that have been discussed in the media. So that that is happening, but I would like to think that we can try and make change without resorting to lawsuits. And as Janice said, if we can just educate the people out there as to what's happening in a real world sense and say, this is what is happening to our children and we just can't let it go on. I I don't understand, I I lawsuit I know what that means and and I can see going to the legislature and and insisting on more money for a variety of reasons. But when Jerry, for example, says he's very disappointed with what the courts are doing and not doing, how does a lawsuit somehow have an impact on what the courts are deciding?

[00:55:02] Keith Shigetomi: I think what Jerry's talking about is what the courts are deciding in the specific cases dealing with the children. You know, what what he's trying to do is change the entire system and the funding and the focus and the priorities. and even the standards that the court would apply in making these decisions? No, I think what he's saying is that I and I guess what he's talking about is the Felix Wyhey lawsuit in which they forced the state to designate certain amount of funds for special needs children and in special education programs. So it all comes to funding. Right. Okay, Janice.

[00:55:35] Janice Wolf: Okay, two things. Um, as a follow-up to what Keith is saying, I think what he's saying basically is that the judges are making decisions based upon the information they get. If there were more lawsuits, it would put certainly the Department of Human Services feet to the fire, come up with better information, better assessments, and better social work that would in turn lead to better decisions in the court. I agree with Keith, there is at least, I know at least one attorney, and there are probably several others who are making fairly handsome livings right now suing the Department of Human Services and that may be the new cottage industry within the legal profession. The other thing that, um, I think is happening right here and right now and that is media. One of the things that I very keenly was aware of when I was a reporter for the advertiser was the effect of media on public opinion. Um, if it and and I think that shows like this, quite frankly, I think the coverage by by the TV, by Channel 9 here, and the report certainly that the advertiser is doing is doing is not letting the story die, not letting the issue die. So often with media, what happens is it becomes a one-day story. There's a there's a flare up, a child dies, a child gets injured, it's on the pages for a day or two and then it's on to the next day's news. But consistent digging by the media, I think is one of the best weapons that

[00:57:00] Randall Roth: and in half to keeping their home safe. Uh, we've got time to take uh the people who've been uh patiently waiting on the line, so if you're there, stay there. We'll get to you by the end of the hour. Anyone else, uh please don't call because we're just not going to have time to get to you. Let's go to Abby, who also is a social worker, Abby, I think in LAIA, good morning, Abby.

[00:57:18] Caller: Good morning. I was uh very interested in the topic you're discussing. It's uh very fashionable these days to point fingers and look around. My experience with the Department of uh Child um Child Protective Services is that those workers are extremely dedicated. They are shooting at a moving target. Um when one has to carry a case load of 50 cases and make judgments about somebody's future behavior and whether someone is or is not rehabilitated. Um, you're asking somebody to do the impossible and it's very easy to point fingers. My concern is that the breakdown in the family is largely caused, from my experience, by the breakdown in the community as well. And I think it's it's it's not going to be solved by lawsuits. Um we can say everything is political. Yes, the legislature needs to put their money where their mouth is when they talk about the future of Hawaii. Uh, Hawaii's children are the future of Hawaii. Um, I think the issue really comes down to you and me.

[00:58:19] Caller: I agree with your last speaker who said that the media needs to keep the pressure on but not in a blaming way. The community needs to take responsibility for what is and is not happening in the schools, on the playground, and in their very own neighborhood.

[00:58:32] Randall Roth: Okay. Abby, thank you for your call. We really appreciate it. Okay. Uh we go to Larry from Manoa. Larry, you've been waiting a long time. I appreciate your patience. Good morning.

[00:58:40] Caller: Hi Randy, well I have been waiting a while for you to take this up on your show and I'm very happy that you have. Um as you know, uh well I have been an advocate for systemic change and many other people have put a lot of work into trying to get systemic change made. All your callers have been right and your guests are both right. And when you have a situation where everybody's right but nothing changes, it's time to think, well, how do you do it? Social workers with uh case loads of 40, 80, whatever the number may be, obviously it's not working. Hawaii put out um what's called a blueprint for change. A lot of people put a lot of effort into that. Uh the legislature is taken up and still we do not have the change that uh your guests and the callers have requested.

[00:58:59] Caller: And when you have a situation where everybody's right but nothing changes, it's time to think, well, how do you do it? Social workers with uh case loads of 40, 80, whatever the number may be, obviously it's not working. Hawaii put out um what's called a blueprint for change. A lot of people put a lot of effort into that. Uh the legislature is taken up and still we do not have the change that uh your guests and the callers have requested. And at the same time, there are models of uh change in other states and particularly in the British Columbia, uh situation where they uh were able to completely change a system so that many of the problems that uh your your guests and callers have brought out are handled routinely. For example, multi-disciplinary teams deciding uh what's the best interest of the child and so forth.

[00:59:28] Caller: And at the same time, there are models of uh change in other states and particularly in the British Columbia, uh situation where they uh were able to completely change a system so that many of the problems that uh your your guests and callers have brought out are handled routinely. For example, multi-disciplinary teams deciding uh what's the best interest of the child and so forth. I I don't need to get into details but I wish to make the comment that there is a way. I do think we need systemic change, and I think the sooner we get about it, the more child's lives we're going to save.

[01:00:02] Randall Roth: Okay. Larry, thank you for your call. We appreciate it. Thanks Randy. We're down to the last couple of minutes. Uh, Keith and Janice, why don't you each take one of them to either add what needs to be added or highlight what needs to be highlighted, uh first, Janice Wolf.

[01:00:17] Janice Wolf: Okay. First, I would just like to make two comments. Number one, I think we have to change the way we look at kids. Kids are not property, interest. And one of the things that concerns me is that we look at children as the property of their maker. That, you know, the maker broke their toys, so we're going to take their property away, and when they learn how to play with their toys properly, we're going to return them. I think we need to start really focusing on kids as people with with independent rights, um with the right not to be hurt. That's number one. Number two, we have to get back to the village. It does take a village, not only to raise a child, but to save a child.

[01:00:51] Janice Wolf: Everybody who turns a blind eye or a deaf ear to a hurt child that they or or a child that they know is being hurt or injured in their neighborhood, in their school, in their community is part of the problem and not part of the solution. We need to make everybody, as our last caller said, the community, part of the solution.

[01:01:08] Randall Roth: Okay. That's Janice Wolf, who currently is a practicing lawyer, who among other things, serves as a guardian ad litem for a number of children who are in the family court. Uh, Keith Shigatomi.

[01:01:21] Keith Shigetomi: I agree that we need to look at the safety of the children, but I also believe that we can't overreact to certain tragedies, that we still need a certain balance in the system, that we need to maintain ensure that people are ensured uh, are given their fair day in court, that they have uh they're treated with fairness and dignity, that they're not uh, falsely accused. And that's what we're saying is that we need a a balance in the system that while we need to protect the rights of children, we also need to protect the rights of people, and parents are people.

[01:02:18] Randall Roth: As I said, you know, we we can agree on the black and the white. The the the question becomes on the gray areas, and we need to ensure that we're taking a balanced and fair approach to it and that we make sure that we don't prejudge someone, that we make sure that we can uh, have evidence to support the the removal of the child. Okay. Well, that's Keith Shigatomi, who is a practicing lawyer and among other things, he represents a number of parents who are uh defending their rights when uh their children are being taken away from them. Watch Channel 9 News tonight. Uh, Tasha Kabashigawa is going to be giving a report, we think, on today's show. Um, tonight at 8 o'clock, KIFO 1380 AM. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, Aloha.

[01:02:37] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, that's Keith Shigatomi, who is a practicing lawyer and among other things, he represents a number of parents who are uh defending their rights when uh their children are being taken away from them. Watch Channel 9 News tonight. Uh, Tasha Kabashigawa is going to be giving a report, we think, on today's show. Um, tonight at 8 o'clock, KIFO 1380 AM. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, Aloha.