Prison Crowding in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-10-09
Guests: Jerry Riordan (President, John Howard Society); Gene Kassebaum (Professor of Sociology, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:05:07

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: 70s here. In fact, our existing prisons are packed beyond their intended capacity, and the state has been ordered to do something. New prisons would be terribly expensive, but many folks prefer that cost to the possible consequences of releasing criminals early. With me in the studio to discuss these and related issues are Jerry Riordan and Jean Cassaboom. Jerry is the executive director of the John Howard Association, an organization that has been working in the field of criminal rehabilitation in Hawaii for the last 36 years. Jean Cassaboom is professor of sociology and director of the Center for Youth Research at the University of Hawaii. He has written books on prisons, crime, and delinquency, and he tells me that his friends at the State Department of Public Safety asked that I mention that he has nothing to do with running prisons in Hawaii.

[00:00:39] Randall Roth: He has written books on prisons, crime, and delinquency, and he tells me that his friends at the State Department of Public Safety asked that I mention that he has nothing to do with running prisons in Hawaii. Jean, Jerry, welcome to the Price of Paradise radio show.

[00:00:53] Jerry Riordan: Nice to be here, Randy.

[00:00:54] Gene Kassebaum: Good morning, Randy.

[00:00:55] Randall Roth: Uh Jean, I'm wondering if you could start this off by just briefly summarizing the current situation regarding prisons here in Hawaii.

[00:01:03] Gene Kassebaum: Well, I think the quickest way to say it is that there are too many people in the prisons we have.

[00:01:09] Randall Roth: Too many people in the prisons we have. Well, doesn't that mean obviously we need to build more prisons?

[00:01:14] Gene Kassebaum: Well, that's one way to do it. Um, we have about 2,800 now um in confinement, uh about um 700 of those would be pre-trials, people who haven't gone to uh a trial yet. Um, and the remainder are mostly sentenced felons, returned violators, and a few doing misdemeanor time. Um, they're all over capacity, particularly pre-trials, uh and um they're uh they're a problem as far as uh running the prison and a problem after getting out.

[00:01:48] Randall Roth: And and the cost obviously of building new prisons uh we're not talking about small, small numbers?

[00:01:54] Gene Kassebaum: No, we're talking big big bucks. Um, I think uh nationally at these days to build secure cells, it's about $100,000 a a cell. That doesn't count the cost of servicing the bonds or operating them.

[00:02:10] Randall Roth: So just the initial front-end cost, the 100,000 per cell, and then we've got the cost of of maintaining it, running it. It's an expensive proposition. Jerry, any thoughts on that?

[00:02:20] Jerry Riordan: Yeah, I looked at a uh planning document that the Department of Public Safety had produced earlier this year, and I think their estimate over the next several years in building was something like $267 million.

[00:02:34] Randall Roth: $267 million.

[00:02:37] Jerry Riordan: A lot of money.

[00:02:39] Randall Roth: A lot of money. Do you have any idea what it costs uh on a day, daily basis to maintain a prisoner or on an annual basis once we've got the prison up?

[00:02:49] Jerry Riordan: Well, there's a lot of average figures that are tossed around. I think one of them is around $25,000 a year for for an inmate, and another is around $74 to $75 a day depending on what you're looking at. An issue to consider with those numbers is that as the place is more crowded, the per inmate cost necessarily goes down. Uh that's not exactly a good thing.

[00:03:18] Randall Roth: Yeah. You know, talking about the size of uh the money that uh can be spent on prisons because we were just talking about building more prisons, I read something in the newspaper several months ago that was attributed to Attorney General Janet Reno, where supposedly she said by next year, we as society here in uh the United States will be spending more on on prisons uh keeping criminals out of uh society's way, um then on public education. Jean, is that conceivable?

[00:03:51] Gene Kassebaum: I think it's certainly uh like it's certainly the case uh that some states, California notably, spend now more on prisons than they do on higher education um and um the other the flip side of that though is that uh they spend it to keep uh criminals out of society's way for a while, but then they come back out.

[00:04:13] Randall Roth: Let's talk a little bit about the the California situation because I'm told that that some people point to it as uh as an example of um of what Hawaii shouldn't do, but probably will do. Uh can you tell us a little bit about that, Jean?

[00:04:29] Gene Kassebaum: Well, California had embarked about a decade ago on a a program of building their way out of a high uh crime problem, and they embarked on an enormous prison construction a program um and enormously increased the number of people in prisons, it's now about 120,000 in the state of California. Um, but they haven't had notably uh a reduction in their crime rate. and um in general, I think uh it leads to a lot of uh concern. I think building your way out of uh a crime problem with uh building your way out of overcrowding with more prisons is something like building more freeways to solve a traffic problem. You know, it it sounds like it will, but often times it doesn't.

[00:05:13] Gene Kassebaum: You know, it it sounds like it will, but often times it doesn't.

[00:05:16] Randall Roth: Jerry, any thoughts on that?

[00:05:18] Jerry Riordan: Uh when Jean gave his freeway example, I thought of another example I've heard and it's as if your kitchen sink is stopped up and both faucets are wide open, and to resolve the problem you get a mop and go at the floor. Uh I think it's something like that.

[00:05:34] Randall Roth: All right. Well, you you've uh pushed me. I I've got to ask what's uh what's the alternative? Because as I sit here, I'm saying to myself, I I really don't think to to put criminals back on the street sooner than they would otherwise be there, it doesn't strike me as being uh an acceptable answer. But Jerry, you've obviously got some ideas.

[00:05:54] Jerry Riordan: Well, I I think if you use uh either the sink or the highway analogies, you have to get at the beginning, you have to get at the front end somehow, and and you need programs on that side. And going after the fact is uh is obviously not working. To to add just a little bit to what Jean said about California's population numbers, uh I read an article the other day about the the whole evolution of California's prison problem, and it said that in 1977, they had 19,000 inmates in the whole state. To give you a sense of they they've added in those years uh 100,000 inmates. And in my mind, I have to ask, why? Was was this really necessary?

[00:06:32] Jerry Riordan: And in my mind, I have to ask, why? Was was this really necessary?

[00:06:37] Randall Roth: Now when you say programs, you're not necessarily talking about programs for those people who have just been convicted of a crime, you're talking about kids. You're talking about keeping people from uh uh committing crimes, I think.

[00:07:11] Jerry Riordan: I think I think ultimately that's where we have to go with this. I think we have made some start in this state uh in doing that. You know, a a little while ago, a couple of years ago, we created purposely this Office of Youth Services to to address this issue. Uh it's not funded as as fully as it might be, but that's I think the direction we need to go in and probably we need to go even even earlier. I mean, the Office of Youth Services is pretty much looking at kids who have already gotten into trouble, and maybe we need to go even a little in front of that.

[00:07:23] Randall Roth: You know, I I sit here and I I understand that, and and I think in a way I agree with that, but I also feel like taxes are are high today, and if that would cost us a lot more, and if that wouldn't immediately pay off so that we would have to build more prisons anyway, at least until the benefits of putting more money into such programs would uh would be evident, can society afford that approach? Jean, do you have any thoughts on it?

[00:07:54] Gene Kassebaum: Well, I think you have a certain amount of money that you're willing to allocate to uh certain kinds of problems, and it's a question of what do you do with that money. Um, where we are now, uh I think one way you could reduce the overcrowding is to sentence fewer uh convicted felons to prison, and that would mean that you'd have to have some credible, effective alternatives to prison, and I think there's a few that for certain kinds of inmates ought to be considered, and in some states are. And then the second thing you can do is to reduce the number of months or years that a prisoner serves in prison. Um, for example, we have now uh the third highest, I think, length of sentence uh among the 50 states. We are at 40 months on the average. The national average is 27. So if we could reduce that um by a certain percentage, uh that would reduce the total demand of room space um there.

[00:08:30] Gene Kassebaum: Um, for example, we have now uh the third highest, I think, length of sentence uh among the 50 states. We are at 40 months on the average. The national average is 27. So if we could reduce that um by a certain percentage, uh that would reduce the total demand of room space um there. And of course we have a system that allows us to do that because we have a parole board at the end that can determine release time. So I think there are some options that would not dump uh offenders on the street but at the same time would not incur the big operating problems of um a large number in prison.

[00:09:10] Randall Roth: In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are UH professor of sociology Jean Cassaboom and the executive director of the John Howard Association, Jerry Riordan. We are live and phone lines are open. Just call 955-8821. Neighbor islanders are invited to call collect. The number again, 955-8821. Jean, you just mentioned that there are alternatives. And something that I've heard about and I don't know if this is for real or not is some sort of of ankle bracelet that uh a person would have to wear and that the correction officials would somehow be able to monitor where that person is and and could in effect keep them out of trouble even though they would be out on their own. Is that uh something that's really feasible?

[00:09:34] Randall Roth: Jean, you just mentioned that there are alternatives. And something that I've heard about and I don't know if this is for real or not is some sort of of ankle bracelet that uh a person would have to wear and that the correction officials would somehow be able to monitor where that person is and and could in effect keep them out of trouble even though they would be out on their own. Is that uh something that's really feasible?

[00:10:01] Gene Kassebaum: It's something that's used in uh uh so-called intensive probation supervision uh all around the country. It's a um electronic device that uh sends a signal usually to a computer uh if a if the person wearing it uh moves out of a certain designated range. So it's usually used in a sentence that says home detention or house arrest or um uh not to uh enter certain areas uh or to be to be in a designated. So it tells you where uh a person is or if a person has left a given area. Now, from then on, of course, you have to have some kind of means of dealing with the person going out of that area. So it's it it it inhibits a a person leaving a designated area um and thereby gives a great deal more um control if you're trying to enforce them to stay in a certain place.

[00:10:39] Gene Kassebaum: Now, from then on, of course, you have to have some kind of means of dealing with the person going out of that area. So it's it it it inhibits a a person leaving a designated area um and thereby gives a great deal more um control if you're trying to enforce them to stay in a certain place. Um, so I I think it has uh utility that way. I'm not sure that it would be the general solution for all problems, though, and that's not a trivial expense, although the cost is going down.

[00:11:13] Randall Roth: And another point you made was that uh our sentences here in Hawaii are are relatively long. And I I sit here saying to myself, well, don't we want people to be afraid of committing crimes? That, what about deterrence? Isn't that a concern? And as you you lessen the sentences, doesn't that eventually result in in less deterrence?

[00:11:35] Gene Kassebaum: Well, you would think so if the world were run by rational people, but then on the other hand, if you look around the country, um you don't see much of an correlation between the length of sentences handed out and the response in the in the crime rate. It some places have long sentences and they um the crime rate is high. Others have short sentences and the crime rate is low. I mean it's so I I think it's a it's a matter of determining how much of a person's sentence you want them to serve inside uh and uh and what can you do about the behavior of people outside.

[00:12:15] Randall Roth: Okay, Jerry?

[00:12:17] Jerry Riordan: That makes me think of um a thing I read a long time ago. Excuse me. Um it was a book called The Nature of Scientific Revolutions, and I read it many, many years ago, and the the author Thomas Kuhn brought up a notion called a paradigm shift. That is sort of that thing that Albert Einstein said that you can't solve a problem by thinking at the same level as a problem, you've got to shift out of that level. And I think that's what we're looking at. Uh listening to Jean talk, I'm thinking about people have the the belief, the paradigm if you will, that we have to put people behind walls in order to punish them.

[00:12:44] Jerry Riordan: And I think that's what we're looking at. Uh listening to Jean talk, I'm thinking about people have the the belief, the paradigm if you will, that we have to put people behind walls in order to punish them. And and if they have to stay there for a very long time, etcetera. And and I think what we need is a new model, that there are ways to punish people that may include that as a uh incarceration as a piece of the punishment, but it's not necessarily the only piece.

[00:13:10] Randall Roth: Can you give me an example of another way to do it?

[00:13:13] Jerry Riordan: Well, you brought up the uh the electronic monitoring. That's a that's another way. Uh the National Institute of Corrections, uh which is a part of the Department of Justice, has a branch uh actually a division called the Community Corrections division, and what their function is is to educate the country if you will, in in this sort of new model, that that community corrections, they stay away from the term alternatives to incarceration because they think that suggests doing something softer than than and what they want to put out is that it's community corrections, that that we are going to punish this person, but we're going to do it in a in a in the community.

[00:14:09] Randall Roth: Okay. And I want to come back uh to hear your thoughts about rehabilitation in a moment. We have several callers on the line. First Shell from Oili Iili. Shell, you're on the air.

[00:14:24] Caller: Uh good morning.

[00:14:26] Randall Roth: Good morning.

[00:14:27] Caller: Uh, very interesting program. I, uh uh a buzzword was just mentioned, paradigm shift. That scares a lot of bureaucrats. Uh uh I I think that's a very appropriate statement. Uh uh given my experience, and I what I'm leading up to is is a question about uh how about lowering the rate of recidivism? I know uh what the John Howard Association does, and you might want to tell your listeners a little more about that organization. If I'm correct, they deal with uh uh prisoners after they're released. Uh, I got involved about a year ago with a program in in uh the prison system here trying to deal with lowering the rate of recidivism and uh I think you're uh uh I I guess my question is, does anyone know about Elizabeth Anderson's program that has been floundering for lack of funding in the prison system here?

[00:15:02] Caller: Uh, I got involved about a year ago with a program in in uh the prison system here trying to deal with lowering the rate of recidivism and uh I think you're uh uh I I guess my question is, does anyone know about Elizabeth Anderson's program that has been floundering for lack of funding in the prison system here?

[00:15:13] Randall Roth: All right. Well Shell, let's let's ask Jerry first to to tell us briefly briefly a little bit more about what the John Howard Association does. And then I'm going to ask him about recidivism and the Elizabeth Anderson program, but one at a time. First of all, John Howard Association.

[00:15:43] Jerry Riordan: Okay. Glad to tell you. Uh the John Howard Association is a private non-for-profit organization uh that as as you so eloquently stated was founded 36 years ago here in Honolulu to help people with the problems of re-entering the community after serving time in prison. Um, back then we started a program called the community assistance program, which was uh sort of a walk-in counselor kind of situation so that a person coming out, and interestingly enough in those days the word was man. We didn't have any women in prison. And could be could say here I am, I've just served my time and I don't have a place to stay, don't have a job, etcetera. Uh I'm happy to say we've continued that program to the life of our agency. We still do that. So people can walk in or can write to our counselor before they're released and can get some some line up on assistance when they come out.

[00:16:20] Jerry Riordan: And could be could say here I am, I've just served my time and I don't have a place to stay, don't have a job, etcetera. Uh I'm happy to say we've continued that program to the life of our agency. We still do that. So people can walk in or can write to our counselor before they're released and can get some some line up on assistance when they come out.

[00:16:32] Randall Roth: And I assume this has something, at least you believe it has something to do with recidivism?

[00:16:40] Jerry Riordan: Oh, yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sure. If if a person comes out of prison and has no resources, uh what's he going to do? He's going to look up his old friends over in Chinatown, let's say, and and hang out, and ultimately get back into the life that took him into prison in the first place. Uh talk about paradigm shift, uh he needs a new model, he needs a new structure to work in, and and we tried in that program to provide that.

[00:17:01] Randall Roth: And when the state is finished uh with him in prison, they push him out the door and don't have the sorts of programs that the John Howard Association has?

[00:17:10] Jerry Riordan: It they may or may not. Uh someone can finish their prison term and come out on parole, in which case there will be supervision mostly. But which will push the person towards programming. But the other way a person can serve full-time, max out, they call it. And if that happens, uh there's no supervision, there's no program.

[00:17:34] Randall Roth: Okay. And I want to come back uh to hear your thoughts about the Elizabeth Anderson program, but Jean, I think you had something to Well, just to pick up on what uh Jerry was saying, a recent statement uh in a federal report said, most California parolees, and we talk about California because it is so large, most California parolees leave prison with no marketable skills or job experience, no high school diploma, a sixth-grade reading level, and a drug problem.

[00:18:09] Jerry Riordan: So you really have um a situation where the likelihood we're setting people up for um a a a trip back. You know, whether or not they do another major offense, if they're on parole, they will be subject to certain rules and get back. It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[00:18:24] Gene Kassebaum: So it sounds like something that uh one would want to cut down uh these risk factors either starting very early um on uh or um making sure that we allocate money uh to corrections and to probation and to parole uh to put in um to mandate remedial work that will increase the person's um likelihood of getting a legal job uh and and making it.

[00:19:07] Randall Roth: Okay. So Jerry, you that you just gave one example of what the John Howard Association is doing and I know it's doing a lot more, but are you familiar with this Elizabeth Anderson effort that Shell asked about?

[00:19:24] Jerry Riordan: A a little bit. I had talked to Elizabeth recently because she is in a funding bind. She had been doing a couple of programs out at uh Halava for the inmates, uh teaching them personal skills, I guess you'd call it. I'm I'm hard-pressed to say exactly what it is she does, but she contacted me because she knows that that we do similar kinds of programs.

[00:19:00] Speaker 1: Uh, as far as I know, she still does not have funding.

[00:19:03] Speaker 2: Okay. Shell?

[00:19:04] Caller: Yes.

[00:19:05] Speaker 2: Does that answer your questions?

[00:19:06] Caller: Uh, pretty much so. I'd tell you a little little bit more about Miss Anderson's program. She deals with uh trying to uh institute paradigm shift thinking in prisoners and and she has literally hundreds of letters from from from pretty hardcore prisoners, uh, and there's a common theme among all of them. I'm very familiar with it because I help her help her write some of her materials and the common theme is thank you for giving me my life back. And uh uh uh it's it's really a shame that programs like this languish uh for lack of funding, and yet uh now we're talking about building these $100 million prisons. I guess I guess I sort of support Ben Cayetano's uh position on that. I I would like to hear more about what what your guests might think about uh uh Lieutenant Governor Cayetano's comments.

[00:19:37] Caller: And uh uh uh it's it's really a shame that programs like this languish uh for lack of funding, and yet uh now we're talking about building these $100 million prisons. I guess I guess I sort of support Ben Cayetano's uh position on that. I I would like to hear more about what what your guests might think about uh uh Lieutenant Governor Cayetano's comments.

[00:20:02] Speaker 2: Okay. I'll tell you Thank you. Thank you, Shell. I'll tell you what, we've got uh David from the Big Island, who's been waiting patiently. I'm going to take his call, and then I'm going to come back and ask our guests if they can talk about uh all of the candidates for Governor and and how they perhaps uh are saying the same things or the or different things about prisons uh here in Hawaii. David on the Big Island, you're on the air.

[00:20:21] Caller: Yes, good morning. Good morning. Uh two points. Uh I I agree with the uh paradigm shift, um for non violent prisoners, certainly community service would be far better than just sitting there twiddling their thumbs in jail. Uh they they are for one thing are are I mean I know you with community service you can't compete with the private enterprise and all that, but our our forests are filled with with exotic plants that are killing the the natives and we need so much labor up there to to clear them out, you know, why not let prisoners do something like that? Uh the other point, um getting to the front end of the whole problem, uh primitive societies maintain their values by storytelling and you we don't have storytelling today, instead we have television. And every child sits in front of television and and learns the values of our society, and it is is any wonder that they go out and and and are violent? I mean, you you can't watch a program almost without seeing somebody get killed or at least be beat up.

[00:20:55] Caller: Uh the other point, um getting to the front end of the whole problem, uh primitive societies maintain their values by storytelling and you we don't have storytelling today, instead we have television. And every child sits in front of television and and learns the values of our society, and it is is any wonder that they go out and and and are violent? I mean, you you can't watch a program almost without seeing somebody get killed or at least be beat up.

[00:21:27] Speaker 2: David, I'm going to ask Jean Casabomb to comment on that.

[00:21:29] Gene Kassebaum: Uh certainly the the violent offender is the uh person who's um most likely to uh be in prison and uh that's the case in our state too, as in all others about 31% of the people now doing time uh are for a violent offense. But then we have a number of others, and in fact, we would have to be 70% or so. Um certainly about 12% are in on a sex offense and about 20% on property and a 12% on drugs. So property and drug offenders in particular are good candidates for a mix of sentencing that would not include a long stretch of incarceration without exposing the public to a greater risk of uh assault of crime. So I think that would be one place to start.

[00:21:52] Gene Kassebaum: Um certainly about 12% are in on a sex offense and about 20% on property and a 12% on drugs. So property and drug offenders in particular are good candidates for a mix of sentencing that would not include a long stretch of incarceration without exposing the public to a greater risk of uh assault of crime. So I think that would be one place to start.

[00:22:16] Speaker 2: Okay, and David, you'd say get that television set uh turned off more often, huh?

[00:22:20] Caller: Or change programming. I mean we we are teaching the children that this is what you do in our society, and then we're surprised when they do it.

[00:22:27] Speaker 2: Appreciate your thoughts.

[00:22:29] Caller: Thank you.

[00:22:29] Speaker 2: Thank you, David. Bye. This is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. Today's topic is prisons. Should we build more? And if the answer is yes, where in the world are we going to get the money? If the answer is no, what are we going to do with the criminals who simply won't fit in our existing facilities? My guests are Jerry Rirden, the executive director of the John Howard Association, and Jean Casabomb, a professor of sociology at UH, who has written books on prisons, crime, and delinquency. Your calls are welcome. The number is 955-8821. We had a show several weeks ago on privatization, and at that time the guests were saying that uh our prisons would be a great place to begin, at least talking about if not actually uh doing this this privatization thing. In talking about that, they said that a number of prisons on the mainland that had been privatized were not just being run more uh less expensively, but were having better results. And when I said why, they said because they make them work, because they're putting those prisoners to work, keeping them busy, uh idleness is the devil's workshop, etc.

[00:23:02] Speaker 2: We had a show several weeks ago on privatization, and at that time the guests were saying that uh our prisons would be a great place to begin, at least talking about if not actually uh doing this this privatization thing. In talking about that, they said that a number of prisons on the mainland that had been privatized were not just being run more uh less expensively, but were having better results. And when I said why, they said because they make them work, because they're putting those prisoners to work, keeping them busy, uh idleness is the devil's workshop, etc. Jean, number one, what do you think of privatization in general? And number two, don't we currently keep those prisoners busy?

[00:23:39] Speaker 2: Jean, number one, what do you think of privatization in general? And number two, don't we currently keep those prisoners busy?

[00:23:48] Gene Kassebaum: Well, the the answer to the first one, excuse me, the answer to the first one is that it really depends on what the uh uh organization is that operates the the prison service. And we have some private contracting for our services uh here in the state. Um, and um, I think that that certainly certain things you can purchase on the uh on the private market uh and enforce through um uh purchase of service contracts without getting into some of the heavy investments that you have to in the state. But I'm a little less optimistic that you can and should run an entire uh corrections program as as a business. Seems to me that the essence of corrections is that you deliver punishment, sanctions uh and uh um um rehabilitative services um uh in the name of the state. It's the community through the state that's expressing its disapproval of uh of an action. And to deed that to to hand that over to a company just doesn't uh accord with my feeling of of what the um the basis of punishment is.

[00:24:25] Gene Kassebaum: But I'm a little less optimistic that you can and should run an entire uh corrections program as as a business. Seems to me that the essence of corrections is that you deliver punishment, sanctions uh and uh um um rehabilitative services um uh in the name of the state. It's the community through the state that's expressing its disapproval of uh of an action. And to deed that to to hand that over to a company just doesn't uh accord with my feeling of of what the um the basis of punishment is. Mhm. As far as um um having uh having a work in the prisons, I think a number of people who uh who operate prisons, certainly the late Judge Sumner, um used to uh be concerned with increasing the number of work lines with increasing the amount of uh of useful work done uh by inmates and reducing the amount of downtime.

[00:25:02] Gene Kassebaum: Mhm. As far as um um having uh having a work in the prisons, I think a number of people who uh who operate prisons, certainly the late Judge Sumner, um used to uh be concerned with increasing the number of work lines with increasing the amount of uh of useful work done uh by inmates and reducing the amount of downtime. Now, the amount of downtime is partly a consequence of this overcrowding because if you've got people uh packed in, you've got to lock them down more hours of the day. And if they're locked down, they can't very well be doing work. So, I think to uh increase the amount of work done, um you would need to reduce the amount of overcrowding and and uh increase the number of sentence felons who are out in the community uh because you can't put enough useful work inside of an institution. So, I I I agree that you would want to increase the amount of useful work done in in prison.

[00:25:26] Gene Kassebaum: Now, the amount of downtime is partly a consequence of this overcrowding because if you've got people uh packed in, you've got to lock them down more hours of the day. And if they're locked down, they can't very well be doing work. So, I think to uh increase the amount of work done, um you would need to reduce the amount of overcrowding and and uh increase the number of sentence felons who are out in the community uh because you can't put enough useful work inside of an institution. So, I I I agree that you would want to increase the amount of useful work done in in prison.

[00:25:59] Speaker 2: You know, as I was listening to that uh uh Jerry, I was thinking that uh it's it's kind of a dilemma, I believe, in that on the one hand, if we want people to be rehabilitated, if we want them to to emerge constructive members of society, we need to treat them with with dignity, and we need to give them skills, and and we need to um to really focus on them as as human beings. But but if we're doing that, we're really not punishing them. We're we're in a way rewarding them for what they've done, or at least some people I think would look at it that way. How do you feel about it?

[00:26:36] Jerry Riordan: Well, I think that the loss of liberty is a punishment, unquestionably. Uh whenever I go into a corrections facility and feel the door shut behind me, uh a kind of tremor goes up my spine. I don't like it. And I'm coming out that same day. Uh the thought of spending years in there is not appealing to me on any level. And whenever I'm doing in there, my liberty is gone and I can't go where I want to go. Mhm. Uh to go back to your uh earlier question about privatization, uh I guess I I uh must plead guilty. Uh we do operate uh residential community facilities under contract to the Department of Public Safety, and uh I guess that constitutes privatization. So when I was saying earlier, the the state uh if if if there isn't a parole situation, the state's just shoving that person out.

[00:27:04] Jerry Riordan: Mhm. Uh to go back to your uh earlier question about privatization, uh I guess I I uh must plead guilty. Uh we do operate uh residential community facilities under contract to the Department of Public Safety, and uh I guess that constitutes privatization. So when I was saying earlier, the the state uh if if if there isn't a parole situation, the state's just shoving that person out.

[00:27:30] Speaker 2: Really by contracting with you, the state is making possible some of those services that are provided. Right.

[00:27:37] Jerry Riordan: Uh we currently operate a program that we've operated for more than 20 years called the Lehea House, and it is a residential program for adult women. And we do some of the things you mentioned, that what they have to do in our program is work. Mhm. Or go to school full-time, and they have to be accountable for their behavior, and they have to behave responsibly, and we have a whole program set up to monitor that. The consequence if they choose not to is that they have to go back to the facility.

[00:28:09] Speaker 2: Jean, you've written books on all of this, and I know you've done a tremendous amount of of research. Is rehabilitation possible? And And when I say possible, are we talking about a high percentage of of criminals who come out of prison uh as constructive members of society or low percentage? How good should we feel about the chances of rehabilitating um people who've committed crimes?

[00:28:34] Gene Kassebaum: I think we should be realistic. It's very difficult to change behavior uh and it's very difficult to overcome uh behavior patterns that have been established for a long time. So there I'd go I'd certainly support Jerry's feeling that early intervention with high risk at-risk kids, preventive programs and uh and that would have a lot to uh to offer. Um it is difficult to design programs that operate uh inside of high security institutions uh that change uh behavior, and the evidence that they do uh is mixed. Um the alternatives to saying the however, and I've contributed a long time ago to a lot of negative information on the program effectiveness in prisons. But the alternatives to um uh having uh a policy of uh providing opportunities for rehabilitation are are fairly grim. Um if you um if you give up on that, then you default to a fairly dreary and frequently abusive uh custodial uh model uh which uh simply says changes impossible. Uh we won't provide any money for that. Uh you do your time and um and that's it. And I think that's really a a more damaging model than even those people who are over-optimistic and think that they can get a guy uh off of dope and into work. Um uh and I know that isn't possible and you expect to have a high relapse rate. But uh you know, you keep plugging away at it. I I think that the assumption that you cannot uh do that is damaging to both the staff morale and to conditions inside uh institutions.

[00:29:21] Gene Kassebaum: But the alternatives to um uh having uh a policy of uh providing opportunities for rehabilitation are are fairly grim. Um if you um if you give up on that, then you default to a fairly dreary and frequently abusive uh custodial uh model uh which uh simply says changes impossible. Uh we won't provide any money for that. Uh you do your time and um and that's it. And I think that's really a a more damaging model than even those people who are over-optimistic and think that they can get a guy uh off of dope and into work. Um uh and I know that isn't possible and you expect to have a high relapse rate. But uh you know, you keep plugging away at it. I I think that the assumption that you cannot uh do that is damaging to both the staff morale and to conditions inside uh institutions.

[00:30:20] Speaker 2: Okay. Jerry?

[00:30:21] Jerry Riordan: I think uh I agree with Jean. Uh there's a lot that can be done, but there's no guarantees. Uh a thing that we've learned in our agency is that timing is a is a very serious and pertinent issue in rehabilitation. For example, we take women into our program, and in when they're when they're talk to in the facility, they they say, yes, I'm ready, I'm I'm all set to go. When they come into the program, they prove instantly that they're not ready and they end up going back to the facility because of some violation or other often drugs. But if they come back again, and we do take them back again, sometimes you'll see a uh a difference. That that something happens and and I listen to a long interview with a an inmate uh from Angola, a large prison in Louisiana, uh yesterday on public radio, and he said everybody gets rehabilitated. He called it growing up. He said sometime along the line in doing your time, you realize I'm responsible for my behavior. How about that?

[00:30:58] Jerry Riordan: But if they come back again, and we do take them back again, sometimes you'll see a uh a difference. That that something happens and and I listen to a long interview with a an inmate uh from Angola, a large prison in Louisiana, uh yesterday on public radio, and he said everybody gets rehabilitated. He called it growing up. He said sometime along the line in doing your time, you realize I'm responsible for my behavior. How about that?

[00:34:28] Speaker 2: Theology, Jean Casabomb, and the executive director of the John Howard Association, Jerry Rirden. We are live and our phone lines are open. Just call 955-8821. Well earlier our caller from Olili Eli mentioned Ben Cayetano's position, and I'm wondering if uh Jean, you could briefly summarize the differences as you see them, uh so far as the four candidates for governor and their thoughts about uh prisons. And if you want to talk about the three uh candidates that have at least 1% uh support in the polls, that's fine. Uh, where do the candidates stand on this issue? Well, we're likely to get three phone calls out of this, if I if I try to get uh to specific. I'd have I'd have to Don't Don't Don't evaluate the positions, but what are the three I I'd have to first say that I don't know as as as much about um the candidates uh positions on this. Uh quite possibly because it is a matter that any intelligent person would be circumspect about uh discussing if they're running for office. It's a um um it's it's an idea which is widely supported uh in spirit by many people that we should have a severe um punishment system delivered uh as we always done um through the prison. Uh but they certainly don't like to think about the cost and about what you get for it when you do lay the money out. So it's not an issue that one would willingly pick up.

[00:35:06] Speaker 2: Well, we're likely to get three phone calls out of this, if I if I try to get uh to specific. I'd have I'd have to Don't Don't Don't evaluate the positions, but what are the three I I'd have to first say that I don't know as as as much about um the candidates uh positions on this. Uh quite possibly because it is a matter that any intelligent person would be circumspect about uh discussing if they're running for office. It's a um um it's it's an idea which is widely supported uh in spirit by many people that we should have a severe um punishment system delivered uh as we always done um through the prison. Uh but they certainly don't like to think about the cost and about what you get for it when you do lay the money out. So it's not an issue that one would willingly pick up.

[00:35:55] Speaker 2: So you don't win a lot of votes when you say let's let criminals out early.

[00:35:59] Jerry Riordan: These ladies and gentlemen know uh how to win votes. I don't, but um as far as I understand it um uh Lieutenant Governor Cayetano uh is um uh least enthusiastic about uh building um uh more prisons but um would review uh the options as I understood his position uh and look at various things to do in response to uh uh criminal convictions. Um I understand um um Pat Saiki's position uh to be that um she would continue a prison uh building program. Um and uh I I don't know much more about it than that. And I have heard um uh Frank Fassy's position to be that he would favor a quick expansion of capacity by um uh tension on platforms um Low security. Low security, um and um um that that's about the extent. So I I'd have to say that uh um I don't know enough really about uh what any of the any of these people would do um with the corrections crowding problem.

[00:36:44] Jerry Riordan: And I have heard um uh Frank Fassy's position to be that he would favor a quick expansion of capacity by um uh tension on platforms um Low security. Low security, um and um um that that's about the extent. So I I'd have to say that uh um I don't know enough really about uh what any of the any of these people would do um with the corrections crowding problem.

[00:37:15] Speaker 2: Okay. And and we can come back to that in a moment. But we have several people on the line. First, Jane Ann from Maui, you're on the air.

[00:37:22] Jane Ann: Thank you. I just um I didn't get to hear part of it, but um I just want to say that if you go into the prison system, the first thing you hear is that there is no rehabilitation to speak of. And I think that most of society assumes that some rehabilitation is going on, certainly more than there is. And with that lack of rehabilitation, people really don't have an opportunity to raise their self-esteem. Obviously, they don't, as as you've mentioned, they come out with no skills, no other options.

[00:38:00] Speaker 1: rehabilitation you mean no efforts to rehabilitate?

[00:38:04] Gene Kassebaum: That's right, and there are very few programs in the prison system nationally, and it's kind of like you're told that you're not here to be rehabilitated, and the message is is that you're here to be punished. Well, you know, if we're if we're capable of influencing each other and we constantly are, then the point I want to make is that, are we influencing these people to be more angry, more frustrated, less capable, because as you said earlier, as well, when they get out, not only do they not have skills, they don't have options, but they're not getting any support, and so, it's just becomes this vicious cycle. So.

[00:38:48] Speaker 1: Jane, let me let me ask Jane. it does it kind of come down to half of us in society say, hey, the whole idea is to punish the perpetrator and to keep them out of society's hair and the other half is saying, no, the whole idea is to change this person.

[00:39:05] Jerry Riordan: Well, I think a lot of people would like to have it both ways. So they'd say uh Can we have it both ways? It ought to be punishing, it ought to be rehabilitative, it ought to be deterrent, it ought to be uh um It ought to be everything.

[00:39:18] Speaker 1: Is that possible?

[00:39:19] Jerry Riordan: I don't I don't think it's possible. I think what you probably have are priorities that shift with certain kinds of offenders, the offense is probably uh uh severe enough so that for them, the the community uh would be satisfied with nothing less than a uh severe uh sanction, a lot of time in um Maybe caning? maybe maybe off with their head. I mean in other words there's certain offenses that the community is very very uh uptight about and does not want to have a lenient response. On the other hand, there are many, many uh offenders that go in, whose conduct is of a different sort and are thereby better candidates for other kinds. So, corrections, does classification, corrections and the and the courts, and I think we might consider sometime uh returning some of the discretion and sentencing to judges, and the parole board in setting the the time in our state. All of them can make distinctions between different classes of offenders that would allow, I think, something other than a simple choice of either punish them or or put them into a treatment program.

[00:40:37] Speaker 1: And and I think you just said that uh, you know, we have too much of this mandatory sentencing to where the judge can't use his or her discretion to where the book says give them 15 years or whatever and it has to be that?

[00:40:50] Jerry Riordan: Well, that would be a topic in itself to talk about our sentencing uh model here, but we do have one of the three classes of felonies, as you no doubt know. A felony A is subject to mandatory prison, but we do have a lot of flexibility in time setting because we have vested discretion in a paroling authority who who does set the minimum time and then the ultimately the release date.

[00:41:14] Speaker 1: Okay, Jerry, you have any thoughts on this?

[00:41:16] Jerry Riordan: I do. when you mentioned to Gene, you know, do half of us want punishment and half of us want treatment? I think a big issue in all of this is is what we want, what the the public wants, so to speak. And there's a there's a foundation in New York called the Ada McConnell Clark Foundation that has done a lot of work in in this area and they came up with the notion that the reason people seem to prefer prison and not community corrections is because they don't know anything about community corrections. They only are back to the paradigm again, sorry to say, but the only model they have is is that you punish someone who gets convicted of a crime by putting them in prison.

[00:42:02] Speaker 1: Community corrections, that would include the ankle bracelet that was mentioned earlier?

[00:42:06] Jerry Riordan: Anything outside the walls. Okay. And so they they decided to go to a place they considered conservative, and they went to the state of Alabama. And what they did down there in a research project was to take 23 convicted persons. Here's, you know, from from shoplifting to rape and murder. This whole list of people and they said to something like 400 citizens of Alabama randomly picked, "you're the judge, sentence them." And this is just cold, and they sentenced almost everybody to prison, because that was their model. Then they showed them a short film on alternative kind of sentences, and the thing did a flip flop. So the first time around of the 23, 18 were sentenced inside and five outside, and when the people saw this short seven or 10 minute film, with new information, they reversed themselves pretty much and came out with 18 going to alternative programs and five going to prison.

[00:43:04] Speaker 1: The paradigm shift, right? The paradigm shift. Yeah, I think so.

[00:43:07] Jerry Riordan: Okay. Jane Anne, I appreciate your call. We've got several people waiting. Thank you.

[00:43:11] Speaker 1: Thank you. Jenna from Maka Kilo. Thank you for waiting. You're on the air.

[00:43:16] Caller: Oh, thank you very much. Um, I, first of all, I want to thank everyone for having this uh program on TV. And I like to say that um, I'm for building more rehab programs, and no uh, no more prisons. And uh, I also want to mention that I was a first offender years ago and and the judge just wanted to lock me up for a long time, and it was just one of those uh times in my life that I had made a a mistake and all of a sudden I seen that um I have um I I was going, I wasn't going to have a life. Did you spend time in in prison? Yes, I did.

[00:43:57] Speaker 1: What was it like?

[00:43:59] Caller: Uh well, the worst thing was not having my freedom. And I think that's what made me realize that the terrible mistake I made, you know, because uh that time I was going through uh several emotional problems, uh from from another country. And um, when I was there, I wished they had a program, which that's what I, I'm about to say that they should have programs within the prison, in a school uh, kind of like mandatory for the for the inmate. But um, I I wanted to go to to classes, but they didn't have uh much available other than like for example uh religious classes, there weren't even classes, there were church and they had secretarial uh classes, but that was just about it. They didn't have anything else. Um I didn't like being inside because I felt like I wasn't being productive. I wanted to do some self-improvement, I wanted to to be out and go to school and different things, um but um the thing is, I think my main thing is that um the the judge was wanted to lock me up and I was not that time that that should have been locked up for a long time.

[00:45:17] Speaker 1: Jenna, let let me ask you one more question and I want to get our our guest's thoughts about what you've said. Uh in your opinion, what percentage of of your fellow inmates at that time were like you that that really shouldn't have been there, that they needed some help getting their lives back on track and what percentage were were people that in your opinion, were were mean people that were going to do further damage as soon as they were out of prison, no matter what?

[00:46:00] Caller: Oh, I would say the ones that uh felt like needed help are like uh 60%. And I would say 20% were ambiguous, they don't know where they stand and perhaps 20% you know, they would go back and do the same thing again. Okay. Thank you, Jenna. Let me get the thoughts of uh of our guest. Gene, anything about what Jenna has just said that you'd like to comment on?

[00:46:08] Gene Kassebaum: Well, I don't know how many months or years Jenna did inside, but I think uh along with our concern with the reduction of overcrowding, we ought to look at that as a as a real possibility. Uh our the presence uh length of time on average is in Hawaii about uh 3.3 years. Now, if you knocked off about uh 10% of that uh time, uh and and if you look at the $26,700 a year that it uh averages according to the Department of Corrections to keep the person in there, um it's an $88,000 uh bill, if you keep a person in the 40 months. If you knock off 10% of that, you're saving about $8,000. Um, and I think that that um of knocking off 10% reduces uh in an appreciable degree the amount of overcrowding. Also, I think the the number of people we have in pretrial, given that we are a bounded island, um more than 700 I think right now, the pretrial detainees uh also could be really reduced, I believe with a better system of community uh uh supervision um for pre-trials. And so I think these are possibilities of cutting down overcrowding.

[00:47:27] Speaker 1: Okay, Jerry, any thoughts about what Jenna shared with us?

[00:47:29] Jerry Riordan: When I was listening to Jenna, the part about uh just being there and not being able to do anything, sort of stuck in my mind. I talked to a fair amount of inmates and and some of them used the term dead time, has a has an awful weighty feeling to me when I hear it.

[00:47:46] Caller: Oh, one last thing I want to say is that um, they should have a more long-term prism um, I'm sorry, long-term rehab programs because um, uh with the hard work of my lawyer, I went to a uh three year long-term program and it was the best thing that happened to me because it was, you know, you can't make uh um make up for a 30 I'm I'm my 30s and you know, 30 years of uh um habit that had been built and you know, it's definitely difficult to break and about a six-month program, but a long-term program, you have a lot of time to to create new habits, build new habits and uh a new way of thinking. So, uh we do have a program in Honolulu which are about that length, two years to three years and from there I came out like a new person, I now uh I now am getting my master's degree and I'm also helping a lot of women in the same position.

[00:48:44] Speaker 1: Jenna, that that that's great. I I really appreciate your call and and I'm very pleased for you that that you've been able to turn your life around like that. Thank you. In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are UH professor of sociology, Gene Casabom, and the executive director of the John Howard Association, Jerry Rearden. We're live, phone lines are open. The number is 955-8821. Mike from Manoa, you're on the air.

[00:49:14] Caller: Uh, good morning. Uh my question regards drugs and crime and how that might be related to a current prison populations. Um, it seems that the rapid increase in US prison populations has coincided with an explosion of the drug trade, uh which shows no sign of decreasing. Um, I believe I've read some statistics that say uh particularly in New York, that up to 50% of the cases in the criminal justice system are uh drug related. Um, I guess my question is, would decriminalization uh taking the economic incentive out of the drug trade have an effect of reducing prison populations?

[00:49:54] Speaker 1: Gene, what do you think?

[00:50:06] Gene Kassebaum: Well, you're dead right that the run-up in prison admissions all around the country uh is uh in large part due to uh the greater volume of uh arrests for drug offenses and the uh the sentencing to prison um of uh persons uh for uh violation of drug laws. So, that uh that recently has become a much larger percentage. Uh the number admitted in US prisons for drug offenses now is nearly as large as the number admitted for property offenses. It's larger than the number for violent offenses and for public order offenses. So, I I I think that that the consequences of a heavy criminalization of drug use and sentencing uh uh especially mandatory sentencing in the in the federal guidelines uh and in our own. For example, in the state of Hawaii uh there are uh felony A drug offenses for which a person must be sentenced to a maximum term of 20 years, regardless of priors or anything else. Now, that can be reduced through appropriate parole decisions, but that that's a major problem. Whether decriminalization, I mean that term is so broad, you know, that it could range from uh uh commercialized products uh, you know, buying cocaine as you can buy package of cigarettes um, or it can range downwards to where you are um, uh significantly moderating criminal penalties for drug use and allowing uh more variable um um reactions to uh to continued drug use and so on. Uh, I think those ought to be seriously examined and I think our Surgeon General uh among other people uh uh has had the courage to say that they ought to be examined, but we really don't know um what decriminalization uh means until, you know, we spend a little time detailing that.

[00:52:24] Speaker 1: Mike, I want to get uh Jerry Ridan's thoughts and then I've got a couple more people on the line. Oh, go ahead and hang up then. Thank you. Thank you Mike.

[00:52:29] Jerry Riordan: Jerry, any thoughts about Mike's point? I uh pretty much agree with what I heard Gene say. It it is a serious Excuse me, it is a serious part of the problem. I think there's another dimension to the problem too. And that is there are there are those who are in prison because they're sentenced for a drug offense and and that number, as Gene indicated, is rising, but they're also those that are in prison for a non-drug related offense who were using drugs to to commit the crime and I've worked with many of those kind of people, so that they don't show up statistically, really. And and Mike's point gets even stronger, I think, when you think about it that way, that the influence of drugs in packing our prison, both direct and indirect is is enormous. And uh I back away from coming right out and saying let's decriminalize, but I would say we need to really look at it and we need to shift our model on this one too.

[00:53:23] Speaker 1: Okay. We um Jean another thought

[00:53:26] Gene Kassebaum: Well I I yeah I think you can you can be uh less enthusiastic about heavy criminal penalties for drug use at the same time be quite negative as I am on the consequences of drug use and and support uh programs for uh drug use abatement. Now, we certainly uh have an attitude like that toward alcohol and tobacco use where we've we have not criminalized uh tobacco use, but we have been relatively, at least moderately successful in reducing uh the acceptability and amount of of smoking. Now I think so I think you could be simultaneously quite against drug use and at the same time want to consider decriminalizing uh the penalties so that you can do something more effective in reducing drug use.

[00:54:09] Speaker 1: Okay. We have a caller from Maui. Ralph, you're on the air.

[00:54:12] Caller: Yes, hello. Good morning. Um I've been a lawyer for 30 years and uh I really agree with what the last couple of speakers have said, particularly about uh in in in in incriminating drug use. Uh but to build on that, I think that with privatization of the prisons, you end up with slavery all over again. Uh one thing that isn't being talked about, about which most of us in the middle class are in total denial, is a relationship between uh racism and poverty and unemployment and uh what is now becoming manifest as a two-tiered society. And uh building more prisons and then putting private industry in them employing people while you destroy unions and while you destroy public services, it leads us to a garrison state. And I'd like some talk about that as well as about the number of native Hawaiians who are in our in our prisons as compared with whites.

[00:55:26] Speaker 1: Ralph, let me uh uh ask Jean. I know in your research you've looked into just who's in jail here in Hawaii. Could you tell us a little bit about how that breaks down?

[00:55:35] Gene Kassebaum: Well, the caller is is right. The largest single ethnic community in prison now, according to several estimates are native Hawaiians including of course part-Hawaiians, about 40% of the admissions and 40% of the uh uh sentenced felons doing time are uh native Hawaiians. Um we also have much smaller percentages but very very overrepresented from uh other minority, Samoans, who are a small percentage of the state population, but about 5% of the prison population are way overestimated. African-Americans also. Uh we have about 20% of the prison population now, which is higher than it used to be who are Caucasian. That's a little under the numbers in the state. Uh and we have a very very much smaller percentage of Chinese, Japanese and uh Koreans in in prison than they form of the state population. So, it definitely there's a very strong correlation between ethnic minority status and the likelihood of going to prison, and of course ethnic minority status is also correlated with income, uh with the years of school completed and with kind of jobs you have, so it it the prisons are in the business of regulating the behavior of um males in their 30s who come disproportionately from uh uh ethnic minorities and and the and the poor, so uh it certainly is a a feature of of prison if you expand

[00:57:00] Speaker 1: presence, you must expect to put more and more of of these folks uh into into prison. Now, why they're in there, they may very well have a higher crime rate, and that in turn goes back to issue number one, uh which is how you intervene early in the life of communities and people uh to reduce the likelihood that they will be indulging in law violation and reduce the likelihood that they're being busted. Ralph, I appreciate your call. We're running out of time and I've got another caller on the on the line. Thank you.

[00:57:29] Caller: Maria from Hawaii Kai. Maria, you're on the air. Good morning. I find your program very interesting. Um, we are arguing around here of what they mean by three strikes you're out. Does it mean you have to be in prison twice and then the third time you stay in prison?

[00:57:46] Speaker 1: That's a great question, Jean, can you explain just real briefly what the three strikes and you're out program or approach is all about?

[00:57:53] Caller: It changes with the state uh and there's one in California, there's one in the new crime bill. Uh, the one in the new crime bill seems to specify that if you have Now you can turn it up. if you have one um uh federal offense, uh which is violent, and a second uh offense uh which is uh either violent or drug, you can uh you must be sentenced uh on the third offense to uh a term of imprisonment. But even the crime bill is not uh categorical on that. So, I don't know. Three strikes and you're out, would certainly have the effect of uh dramatically increasing the number of commitments to prison. And I I think that uh uh some experience with that in California has diminished the enthusiasm for it.

[00:58:40] Speaker 1: Is that just political rhetoric, or is that um uh a serious Well, that's suggestion?

[00:58:46] Caller: It's such a nifty uh metaphor, you know. But it doesn't even make sense in baseball, as I understand baseball. Three strikes means that you're out for that inning, but you got a few more shots in the course of the game. I think in criminal justice, it sounds like three strikes and you're in, uh and in for a very long time. And that's going to be a real problem with those older offenders, you know, that have very, very low probability of committing another offense. The three strikes and you're out means a sort of a massive uh um nursing home uh program for guys in their 60s if they really stayed in that long. So it's hard, hard for me to see how much it's going to be used.

[00:59:24] Jerry Riordan: Jerry Reardon, I think I know a little bit about uh reading from the California example, and the original intention was three violent felony convictions and you go away 25 years to life. And and I think uh what Jean was talking about was that that's kind of been modified here and there. So what exactly constitutes violent felonies has has sort of shifted downward, and the concern that I've read about is that people who who haven't exactly committed three violent felonies will nevertheless be added to the prison population. The uh District Attorney in Los Angeles stood up against the law in California because he believed it was outrageous. And the Department of Corrections in California made some estimates about what it's going to cost them to to follow up with this law, and it's it's pretty enormous. It's something like $20 billion in the next 10 years.

[01:00:20] Speaker 1: 20 billion Okay. Billion. Okay. Well, we're down to the last uh 3 minutes or so and we have another caller, Phil from Waimanalo. Phil, you're on the air.

[01:00:29] Caller: Yes, good morning. Um Getting back again to the issue of uh rehabilitation in in the prison systems. Uh having worked somewhat in the prison systems, I hear locally, one of the things that I was really impressed with was uh the prisoners that I spoke with will say that what they learn how to be is prisoners. When you go to prison, you learn how to be a prisoner. And so when you get out, you're not in prison anymore and so it's difficult to function.

[01:01:00] Speaker 1: Phil, let me let me ask Jean. I I've heard many times that folks who aren't seasoned criminals go to jail and learn how to be uh quote, "expert criminals". Is is sometimes that the the way it works?

[01:01:14] Caller: Well, I hate to keep saying it depends, it depends, and I mean that's That's the professor. Yeah, put a piece of chalk in a guy's hand and if he's a professor, he starts drawing on the board and saying it depends. Um but it depends. Uh if you have uh some uh some offenders by the time they go into prison have already been in juvenile confinement, they've already been in jail, have already been in uh various kinds of uh of programs and so they've learned along the way. I don't know. Um, some of them uh uh confirm their behavior uh with a long stretch in prison. Um, some might be um, I've talked to some who frankly are turned around. Um, you tend to mature out uh after you've done some time, you uh are less likely uh in your late 30s and 40s to come back. Um, uh and so uh uh I'm I'm not sure how much people get worse, but uh they've had a lot of practice often before they get into prison.

[01:02:18] Speaker 1: Okay. We're down to just a a few seconds, Phil. I appreciate your call. Um we we have to wrap this up Okay. in in just the few seconds we have left. Uh if you could change one thing here in Hawaii immediately about prisons, Jerry, what would you change?

[01:02:34] Jerry Riordan: People's perceptions of the need and the functions of prisons.

[01:02:37] Caller: Jean? I think I'd shorten the time that people do.

[01:02:41] Speaker 1: Thank you very much. My guests today were Jerry Reardon, executive director of the John Howard Association, and Jean Cassabohm, professor of sociology and director of the Center for Youth Research at the University of Hawaii. Today's show was produced by Susie Roth, with technical assistance from Jeff Iilardi. We hope you'll turn in next week when we'll be talking about the candidates in the governor's race. Each one's strengths, weaknesses, and chances of getting elected. It promises to be a very interesting conversation. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha. Today's show was produced by Susie Roth with technical assistance from Jeff I-lardi. We hope you'll turn in next week when we'll be talking about the candidates in the governor's race. Each one's strengths, weaknesses, and chances of getting elected. It promises to be a very interesting conversation.

[01:02:53] Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Susie Roth with technical assistance from Jeff I-lardi. We hope you'll turn in next week when we'll be talking about the candidates in the governor's race. Each one's strengths, weaknesses, and chances of getting elected. It promises to be a very interesting conversation. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.