Crime & Punishment in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-05-29
Guests: Michael Nakamura (Chief, Honolulu Police Department); Ted Sakai (Director of Prison Services)
Duration: 1:08:57

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: The price of paradise show. The people who bring you this program are all volunteers, individuals concerned about the future of Hawaii. Our activities began several years ago with the publication of a book called The Price of Paradise and in it we listed three guiding principles. The first had to do with taking an honest look at your problems if you hope to do anything about them. The second said that with lively and informed dialogue, a community is more likely to deal effectively with those problems. And then finally, communities have a moral obligation to keep the interests of future generations in mind.
[0:00:33] Randall Roth: Since then, we've published a second volume and work to increase citizen involvement in the 1994 political campaign. This last effort was called Pop 94, Pop being an acronym for Price of Paradise. If you've listened to us before, you know that we have a topic of the day and we talk about it for a while and then we open up the phone line so listeners can ask questions or make brief comments. The whole idea is to generate lively and informed dialogue about the issues that are shaping the future of Hawaii.
[0:01:03] Randall Roth: Today's topic is crime and punishment in Hawaii and with me in the studio to discuss it are Honolulu police chief Michael Nakamura and the head of Corrections Services for the Department of Public Safety, Ted Sakai. Gentlemen, good morning.
[0:01:17] Ted Sakai: Good morning Randy. Good morning chief.
[0:01:19] Michael Nakamura: Good morning Ted. Good morning Randy, Aloha Kakahiaka to Hawaii.
[0:01:23] Randall Roth: All right. Well the topic is crime and punishment and so we'll take them in order. Uh one would assume there is a relationship. Uh Mike what is the situation today so far as crime in in Hawaii is concerned? And uh and I know in the last week or two, the FBI has issued some new statistics. Could you tell us a little bit about those statistics and secondly, whether you think they're an accurate reflection of what's really going on?
[0:01:48] Michael Nakamura: Uh first of all yes, I I do believe it's an accurate reflection of what's what's happening in Honolulu and in in Hawaii in general. Uh it's contrary to what's happening nationwide and uh that the bad news is that it's even worse for this year. I've got, I received preliminary reports that the the numbers for 1995 will be uh worse than what you see reflected in in the report that came out from the the local uh newspaper. Uh basically Go ahead. basically the the areas of increase would be in the area of property crime. So theft, burglaries, especially auto theft and one area that I'm particularly concerned about is the area of robberies. There seems to be a uh at this point in time in 1995, a 40% increase in the robbery rate.
[0:02:35] Randall Roth: Yeah and so those were the categories with by far the biggest jump over last year and you're saying, looking to the future, you think that's where we're going to see the most increase?
[0:02:44] Michael Nakamura: We'll see that increase here in Hawaii unless there's some changes uh implemented in in our criminal justice system.
[0:02:51] Randall Roth: What uh what's your biggest challenge right now so far as as crime is concerned? Is it does it have to do with uh with funding or does it have to do with um you know increased drug use or something else out there that has uh has you particularly concerned?
[0:03:07] Michael Nakamura: There is um uh the the increase in drug use obviously touches every aspect of crime, as far as I'm concerned in Hawaii. Uh if we can turn the the the tables on on drug use here in Hawaii, we'll we'll have a better better chance in in reducing crime in in Hawaii generally. I think the other overriding problem that we face here in in Hawaii is the overcrowding prison population. That has uh a direct impact on on the crime rate I feel.
[0:03:36] Randall Roth: Well, how does it have a a direct impact? Is it simply because people who would be in jail are out committing crimes or is there some other aspect of that?
[0:03:43] Michael Nakamura: Exactly that, your first point that the uh per uh people that should be in jail are out committing crimes. The uh the example is uh my people out on the road there for that period 1993 to 1994, uh there was uh an increase in the number of arrests in the property crime category here in Honolulu, uh from in the area of 8,000 to 9,000. Uh the increase was about 7%. Uh many of those individuals were repeat offenders, recidivist, uh committing from 50 to 85 uh property type crimes uh uh for any calendar year. Now, if you can put one of these individuals behind bars for say six months, you would prevent uh victims during that six-month period. So I'm beginning to look at incarceration as a form of prevention, and I know it's it's not the the normal way to look at incarceration but uh I I need to do that now. I need to get the the criminal element off the off the streets to prevent the victimization.
[0:04:45] Randall Roth: Okay. Well Ted Sakai, um you wrote a piece for the Honolulu Advertiser this morning, uh page B3 of the of the advertiser in the focus section and uh you're our Corrections expert. Um Mike is not alone. Uh there have been a number of people, uh Honolulu prosecutor Keith Kanishiro, uh Honolulu Mayor, um Jeremy Harris, uh Cynthia Thelan from the House of Representatives had an article a week or two ago, uh all of them seem to be in agreement with Mike that um there's something wrong with the system because there isn't enough space in in the prisons. What are your thoughts?
[0:05:23] Ted Sakai: Well, I think I think we have to acknowledge that there there probably is some relationship between overcrowding and crime, as the chief says. The, but I I don't think overcrowding is the the one factor that is uh that causes crime. In other words, we can build and build and lock everybody up, but we're still going to have crime. We always have a, unfortunately, a new crop of criminals who seem to be coming up up. But uh, it's not as easy as people think.
[0:06:09] Randall Roth: Why isn't it? Is it simply a function of of your needing money to do those things and the money isn't there, or is it because there's there's something unrelated to money money that's a hurdle that has to be overcome?
[0:06:23] Ted Sakai: Well, money is part of it. Prisons tend to be expensive to build and even more expensive to operate. But I think the legislature is sensitive to to our need for more prison space, and they're willing to look at it. The the even more difficult problem is that Hawaii is a small state and there really isn't too much land available for to for us to build a prison. We we face the not in my backyard syndrome almost everywhere we go on every island. Uh, for example on Maui recently, we had the terrible escape. We're not making excuses for that, but one of the the the comments we receive from someone in the community is, why don't we move to jail. The jail has always been there.
[0:07:05] Randall Roth: Mhm. Well, and and this fellow if we're talking about the same one was was on a work furlough, I believe. Is is this the Shane Stewart with the rape of the 12-year-old girl. Um, is the fact that a person uh, I shouldn't say a person like that because obviously you didn't know what what his his likelihood of doing something like that was. But do you have a lot of people that are uh not in jail that under other circumstances would be in jail, um because of this overcrowding problem?
[0:07:34] Ted Sakai: Well, there's no question that there are some people who are out there who should be locked up. Uh, we have a the power to release people on an emergency basis. It was very controversial at the legislature, but it's something that we absolutely have to have in order for us to stay within the capacities mandated by the federal court.
[0:07:54] Randall Roth: I I read an article not long ago and I don't remember the exact statistics, but during one of these emergency release programs, uh something like 40 or 50 convicts were let out. And if I recall correctly, a fairly significant percentage of them were back in within a relatively short period of time that they had been apprehended for committing some crime.
[0:08:16] Ted Sakai: Uh, there there was a study, a report that we we submitted that indicated that, but the report was a little misleading. It was during the first few months of the of our releasing people that this occurred. We've improved a great deal since then and our return rate is much lower now. It was about 40% for a while.
[0:08:36] Randall Roth: I mean, to me, that's shockingly high.
[0:08:40] Ted Sakai: Well, part of it was that the a lot of what what what the report really talked about was 40% of the people we released during that the those early months were re-arrested. But because we didn't have uh all of our procedures down straight, many of the the re-arrests were really for crimes committed prior to their incarceration. That's right. I see so that is misleading.
[0:09:02] Randall Roth: That's right. Mike, you've been listening to all of this. What do you think?
[0:09:04] Michael Nakamura: I think it's important to uh make a distinction between what uh Ted is advocating and what uh the prosecutor has talked about and what I'm talking about. We're not advocating uh a full-scale prison uh building effort. We're looking for uh a minimum security facility that can take care of the non-violent criminals uh which would include your prostitutions, uh your prostitute offenses, uh mainly your theft, your burglaries. uh the the the category of crime where uh people view as non-violent. And that's the first category or one of the first categories that Ted's Ted's organization would be releasing out into the community.
[0:09:43] Randall Roth: Is that right, Ted?
[0:09:45] Ted Sakai: That's correct. Though we we release only those who are non-violent and those without prior records. uh prior probation and parole I would say, but I I I'm glad the chief raised that because I think what what this really calls for is I I think if we really want to look for a solution so to speak to the problem, we've got to look at a range of of responses. Uh it's it's not just a very secure prison. We do need minimum security type prisons that emphasize drug treatment because like the chief says drugs is a tremendous problem, but we also need to beef up some of the programs in the community. Part of the problem is really we release people and we've got very, very few staff who can monitor them while they're out there.
[0:10:29] Randall Roth: Well, if if the critics such as Mike, uh feel that there are answers other than real expensive prisons and and programs and whatnot, why aren't we seeing some of these less expensive solutions um put into place?
[0:10:46] Michael Nakamura: Can I jump in on that as police chief, I need to say that I agree with Ted on that. It should be a multifaceted approach and not just uh building facilities to house these people. Uh we need more prevention and treatment facilities, and uh there there is a uh a very severe lack of treatment uh facilities or or agencies out there to provide treatment for drug abuse, uh uh, you know, people.
[0:11:12] Randall Roth: So more programs in addition to to more space for people who who are not dangerous to society.
[0:11:18] Michael Nakamura: Yes, we need more space. But for the long term solution, uh treatment and prevention is is the key. Uh we just don't have it. And the reason why we're not moving into it, it's not an an attractive political uh endeavor. You don't see immediate uh returns from treatment and and uh prevention type programs. So, politically speaking, uh those uh those type of programs will will not benefit a politician in being reelected in four years. It's going to be a long-term type solution. uh 10 15 years down the road.
[0:11:51] Randall Roth: Well, if if all of this is underfunded coming off the boom years when there seemed to be a lot of money available, um is it reasonable to think that we'll get any of this during these extremely tight budgetary times, Ted?
[0:12:07] Ted Sakai: I I think I think we've got to keep trying and I think the legislature is sensitive. For example, they the recent legislature just funded the drug court program that the probation office will be operating, I should say the courts will be operating. What the drug court is is that if an offender's made major problem is drugs, uh uh I I believe they're looking at property offenders again, they're looking at people who have no priors. But if the major problem is drugs, they want to put the the offender in a separate track where treatment will be the main focus rather than than incarceration. And if the offender succeeds in treatment, then he'll he'll have his uh he or she will have his record wiped out. Wipe wiped off.
[0:12:53] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Our topic today is crime and punishment in Hawaii. My guests in the studio are Michael Nakamura, who's the chief of police for the Honolulu Police Department. Michael grew up in Kalihi, graduated from Farrington High School and has a bachelor's degree in law enforcement from Shaminad University. Um sometimes I think people have this this picture of the super macho uh person being the police chief and I'm delighted to see Mike that you raise orchids for a a hobby. I think that's a wonderful thing.
[0:13:28] Michael Nakamura: I I really enjoy it. It's it's uh a a a way that I can just relax and enjoy nature. Enjoy life.
[0:13:34] Randall Roth: Okay. My other guest in the studio is Ted Sakai, who is the head of Corrections Services for the Hawaii Department of Public Safety. As such, Ted is responsible for the planning, budgeting, and administration of all inmate programs in all facilities in our statewide system. Ted has a BA and Master's Master's degree in political science from the University of Hawaii. And as I mentioned earlier in the program, he's the author of an article that's on page B3 of this morning's advertiser. Ted um uh sounds like you're a busy guy with the prison system.
[0:14:08] Ted Sakai: Well, it's uh there's never a dull moment. I've worked for the department for 16 years now, and I've never been bored.
[0:14:15] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh we also have uh some extra excitement here in the studio. Uh Cheryl Turbiville from Channel 2 is here with uh Jim the cameraman and uh those of you who have an opportunity to watch Channel 2 News tonight, why perhaps there will be a report on on our show on their evening news. Um if you've listened to us before, you know that this is the point in the show when we encourage callers. Uh anyone who would like to ask a question or make a brief comment, all you have to do is call us at 955-8821. Neighbor islanders are always invited to call collect. The number again is 955-8821. We also have uh a couple experts who've been listening to the show on the phone. We have uh Steve Orm who is the top law enforcement officer in Hawaii for the uh federal government. He's the uh US attorney and uh he's been listening to all of this. We we told Steve that we'd like to get his thoughts about the federal angle on crime and punishment in Hawaii. And then we also have Mary Jane McMurdo, who is uh a member of the state legislature. She's the chair of the House committee on public safety, and as such she's uh the point person I guess Ted, in the legislature so far as the various proposals that we've been talking about are concerned.
[0:15:32] Ted Sakai: That's correct on the house side.
[0:15:34] Randall Roth: Okay. Um let's first get uh Steve, if if you're there on line 6, let's just get a few thoughts from you based upon what you've been listening to thus far, and then we'll get a few thoughts from Mary Jane and then we've got some listeners who've uh who've called in. Steve are you there? Philip, do we have Steve on line 6?
[0:15:56] Caller: Steve Orm here.
[0:15:57] Randall Roth: All right. Good morning, Steve.
[0:15:58] Caller: Good morning.
[0:15:59] Randall Roth: Have you heard everything thus far?
[0:16:00] Caller: Yes, I have.
[0:16:01] Randall Roth: What are your thoughts? Uh we want to come back to you again later in the show, but based on what you've heard so far, what uh what's the federal angle on all this?
[0:16:09] Caller: Well, I think to begin with that uh Mike and Ted are both right in this. I think no nobody is saying that the Department of Public Safety is not trying their absolute best to deal with this with this problem as best they can. People are going to have to be released, they're going to have to try to work with them as well as they can. When more people come in and they don't have the spaces to put them in, particularly the non-violent folks, they're going to be releasing them. At the same time, when when guys are making their their living by committing crimes, and as as Mike Nakamura was saying, they're committing a lot of crimes. Those people need to get locked up for all of our protection. Mhm. And I think when I see things every once in a while when they say that when you lock people up, it doesn't have any effect on crime. I I tend to disagree with the logic of that. What I what I see is that it prevents the crime rate from going even higher. As as Mike Nakamura says, these guys are committing 50 burglaries a month. Now, now common sense tells you when that person is locked in a in a in a minimum security prison, or in any prison, they're not committing those 50 per month. So while the overall crime rate may go up, it's certainly not going up as much as if that guy were out in the community committing those crimes and adding to the problem.
[0:17:30] Randall Roth: Okay. Well Steve, stay on the line. We want to come back to you a little bit later in the show. Sure. Um let's shift over to line four, I believe we have Mary Jane McMurdo, the chair of the House Committee on Public Safety. Mary Jane are you there?
[0:17:42] Caller: Oh, I'm here.
[0:17:43] Randall Roth: Have you been listening to all of this?
[0:17:44] Caller: Oh absolutely.
[0:17:46] Randall Roth: It it sounds to me like sooner or later the legislature is going to take uh the rap on all of this because uh It's not like it can help it. It doesn't it uh kind of come down to money, and I know you guys are just real uh short of money right now. What what's your spin on everything that you've been listening to thus far?
[0:18:04] Caller: Well, there are a couple of things I want to mention, first of all. First, I would say that on in public safety. Now, I came in there as green as the grass of Ireland. I knew nothing about the prisons or the public safety. But I fortunately was able to be a pretty fast study on it, and I came in with the same ideas that Cynthia Thelan has, that we need more prisons, need more beds, need more prisons. Let's lock them all up. Well, the reality is that that's not what's going to work completely. You have to have other things. Second of all, or I should have said first of all, we don't have the money to build anymore prisons. So, what are these other things that are going to take less money.
[0:18:49] Randall Roth: Okay. Then, let me come to another point here. We have a group called The Corrections Population Management Commission. And that's composed um of
[0:19:00] Caller: judges and a couple of legislators and various people, I believe Ted Sakai and people like that are on this. But they have done some very intensive studies on this and they came up with comprehensive plans for things that we could do for the prisons here. Now, the reason for this, excuse me, Randy, is because of this federal mandate. Now, this federal mandate, which Mr. Am touched on, says that if we do not get our overcrowding taken care of, we could find that the federal government would simply lock the prisons in the sense that we could put no longer could we put anybody in the prisons.
[0:19:54] Caller: And until we got that situation straightened out, we could be owing or being fined by the federal government up to $100 per day per inmate. Now, Puerto Rico did nothing about their overcrowding and it cost them $28 million. So, you see, the legislature did try to do something this year.
[0:20:18] Randall Roth: But the heat is on. In other words, we're we're going to have to do something. Okay. Well, stay on the line. I want to come back to you.
[0:20:23] Caller: So, then my education started. And I found out also that we we, if we treat, if we get good drug treatment programs, and some of that's going to come out of this new drug drug court, then we release people who are drug-free. They're not going to be as inclined to commit a crime because they're not out there to to commit a crime for money to buy the drugs. Also, you know, the the programs in in literacy are extremely important. And the other one on this line would be, uh, programs for, uh, sex offender sex offenders and uh abusers.
[0:21:10] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Mary Jane, stay on the line. We want to come back to you. Uh, and Ted, I know you're in charge of of all the programs that are currently in place that Mary Jane just mentioned and and in your article this morning in the advertiser, you commented that uh that they're underfunded as it is. Let me come back to you. That's one of the things that we do want to talk a little bit more about, but I've got, uh, some people on the line and we want to get to them right away. First, Desmond from Kaimuki. Good morning, Desmond.
[0:21:36] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Um, my question is, we seems to be looking at bits and pieces of the system, but the citizen, as a citizen, I haven't got any real picture of the overall criminal justice system from police and prosecutors and judiciary and the prisons, how it all fits together and crime prevention and crime cause so that we can address this thing as a total system rather than bits and pieces of it. Does anything exist? Has any thinking taken place in Hawaii of the overall system?
[0:22:12] Randall Roth: Let me ask, uh, please, Chief Mike Nakamura. Do you know of of anyone whose job it is to look at the big picture?
[0:22:20] Caller: Uh, good morning, Desmond. Hi, Chief. I know you very well. I think that's one of the problems, uh, in in the in the state. There is no, uh, coordination between all the different, uh, agencies that are involved in the criminal justice system. Uh, there needs to be some authority to to pull all this together. Right now, uh, some some of the agencies are moving in different directions, so I would agree with Desmond. Uh, there needs to be a closer coordination.
[0:22:49] Randall Roth: Okay, Ted. Yeah, good morning, Desmond. I know I know Desmond very well, too. And I'm wondering I'm wondering why the police chief and the head of the prisons knows Desmond so well. And we should say Desmond, I'm sure I know it's Desmond Burn who's the head of common cause here in Hawaii and as such, he's a real advocate for a number of issues. But Ted, why don't you share your thoughts on this? I think the closest thing that comes to to what Desmond is talking about is the population management commission, which Representative McMurdo referred to.
[0:23:19] Randall Roth: Um, we have the prosecutor, the the courts are are represented, the legislature, and the correction system is represented on that. I think the the commission is very interested in getting the police on the on on board also. But that's the closest thing that we have that takes a look at the various problems. But the main focus by law is on prison overcrowding. Okay. Desmond, thank you for your call.
[0:23:41] Caller: Okay, thanks, Randy. We've got Leonard in Kani Ohe on the line. Good morning, Leonard. Uh, good morning.
[0:23:47] Randall Roth: What can we do for you this morning?
[0:23:48] Caller: Just want to make a comment. I certainly agree with what Chief Nakamora said. I'd like to carry it just a bit further. We we have too many nonviolent criminals locked up for drug offenses due to mandatory sentencing and other very bad laws. We don't need more prisons. We already have more people per capita in prisons than any country in the world. It's a shameful record. Yet we have an endless stream of known violent people who murder their wives, girlfriends, coworkers, and so forth. We need to set priorities on incarceration. Violent people must be the top priority. Thank you.
[0:24:19] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, Ted Sakai, someone told me the other day, uh, one of my colleagues on the faculty at the Law School, said that she believes that in the United States, our incarceration rate is is much higher than it is in any other country. Uh, and I think that was part of of Leonard's uh message. Is that That's That's correct. Why would that be or or you know, doesn't that uh somehow cut against the notion that we need more prison space or is our society just uh prone to uh um having more criminals?
[0:24:49] Randall Roth: I think I think I think it's a combination of two things. First of all, our our policies for throughout history has been to lock people up. And secondly, we have a freer society where people where where there may be more crimes. Our nationally, our incarceration rate is maybe among the top three highest in the world along with South Africa and and Russia. Mike, do you have any thoughts on on Leonard's uh comments? Yes. Yes, I would agree with Leonard in that uh I believe that uh the individuals that are prone to to violence should be the ones in prison, primarily.
[0:25:25] Caller: Uh, however, if if this uh community also wants to reduce its crime rate in the area of property crime, then we need to provide some, uh, some low security facilities for detention. Uh, my priority has always been on on crimes that involve injury or death to individuals. And secondly, I I focus on property crimes. Uh, but you know, if if this this community is is inclined to just focus on on violent crime, then you know, let us know.
[0:25:56] Randall Roth: But but aren't they going to continue to commit property crimes if there's no punishment at the end of the system?
[0:26:02] Caller: That's correct. That's correct. There's no consequences uh at this point in in this state for, uh, committing a property crime. Uh, the majority of the people don't spend any time in in prison at all.
[0:26:12] Randall Roth: So you'd say there is a revolving door. They come into the system when they get arrested, uh, and in fact, many of them get convicted, but they're out of the system and presumably committing more crimes?
[0:26:22] Caller: That that's correct.
[0:26:23] Randall Roth: Ted, I I I think Leonard uh raises a very, very important issue about about drugs and drug the need for more drug treatment. Let me let me just throw out a few numbers here. About 80 to 90% of the people we who come to prison have some sort of history of drug abuse. We we did a study in 1991 or 1992 where we found that about 55 to 60% of our prison inmates were either committed their crimes for drugs or were on drugs or alcohol when they committed their crimes. Third, parole has been doing some careful uh, uh, tracking of people who don't make it on parole.
[0:27:06] Randall Roth: There there's a thing called technical violations. That's when parole, a person will break break the terms and conditions of his or her parole, not necessarily committing a new crime. But what they found was 90% of the technical parole violators are violate to parole because of drugs. So drugs is a tremendous problem. We we've we've got to do something about that issue. It's it's important to do drug treatment in prison so they can go out uh with a chance to make it.
[0:27:35] Caller: Okay. Mike, I just have to chime in and agree with Ted on on that point. Uh, drug, the drugs and drug usage is is at the uh the bottom of all the activities involving uh uh the vast majority of the criminals. If you're going to eliminate uh, uh drug use here in Hawaii, and with that, I would include alcohol. Alcohol involves, uh, close to 75% of all the activities my officers are involved in. You can eliminate, uh, drugs, you you know, we'll have a safer society here. A return to prohibition? Uh, no. I'm not I'm not saying that.
[0:28:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Leonard, thank you for your call. If I could just say one more thing, I think I think I think the real problem is that you have to be selective in who you prosecute. Uh, lots of people can handle alcohol. Lots of people can probably handle minor amounts of drugs and be lead perfectly normal productive lives. If you paint them all with the same brush and throw them all into prisons, of course you're going to have a prison program problem. But if you really want to just build prisons, fine.
[0:28:34] Randall Roth: But what you really need to do is target the violent people. These are the ones that are causing the problems in society. Thank you very much. You bet. Thank you, Leonard. Ted Sakai, what what Leonard just said is exactly what the drug court is all about. And and before I go further, let me say that the first person in Hawaii who really pushed the issue of a drug court was Keith Conishiro, and he deserves a lot of credit for it becoming a reality.
[0:28:56] Randall Roth: The judiciary has worked very very hard to make it a reality, but Keith was the first. But what the drug court will do was select out those people whose major problem is drugs and take them out of the criminal justice system and put them into treatment. Okay. Uh, we've got a caller from Honolulu, Dick. Good morning, Dick. You're on the air.
[0:29:15] Caller: Good morning. I, uh, my name is Dick Chadwick, and uh I think Ted Sakai may recall me from 16 years ago.
[0:29:22] Randall Roth: Not quite, but not quite. I'm a professor of political science.
[0:29:27] Caller: I, uh, would I would first like to, uh, compliment the, uh, committee or the group there. Uh, I haven't heard such a sensible discussion on the prison system in a long, long time. Uh, I would like to make a few comments. Um, the idea that we should dismiss, um, the, uh, the, um, large numbers of people. Uh, someone mentioned there the large numbers of people in prison, uh, with the, uh, rationalization that well we're a free society and therefore we have more people in prison. Uh, I don't think we should, uh, think along those lines. If we did, uh, we'd wind up like Russia.
[0:30:09] Caller: Uh, on the input side, drugs are a major problem, but one has to look behind the drugs at the broken homes, at the lack of support of family values, uh, at the high cost of living, and the, uh, and the, uh, low per capita expenditure on uh, uh, education. These are on the input side. You you got to consider that. Otherwise, you're going to have the crime and you're going to have the drugs. The drugs themselves are symptoms of yet a broader range of problems in our society.
[0:30:42] Randall Roth: Dick, you're making a real good point. Do you do you have a question to ask?
[0:30:45] Caller: On the other side, on the output side, uh, one of the things that I've become aware of over the years is that it is possible to get rid of high recidivism rates if you have programs that nurture those that can be nurtured. Uh, many of my friends, uh, uh, from churches I've been in and so on, uh, have been former, uh, well, have been incarcerated, have been on drugs and so on. And the ones that I meet, uh, got out of that system because people cared. And what I'm wondering is how much uh effort is going into, uh, some serious recidivist program?
[0:38:00] Caller: knowing this I mean they know there's some everyone knows there's something wrong with the system, we all agree with that. So, the other problem that I see and maybe that somebody can comment on this is that it's men generally when they get violent, it's a physical act, women when they get violent, generally, this is a mental act. And this is why we see all these guys in prison and no women in prison, and maybe they they notice this when they get into the families and the the wives or the girlfriends whatever they see really really really mean women who never touch anybody. And I think that's a problem.
[0:38:41] Randall Roth: Rusty, we we appreciate your comments. I've got some more people on the line and we're going to move on to Steve in, I think it's Waikiki if I can read my daughter's writing. Steve, good morning.
[0:38:50] Caller: Good morning, Randy.
[0:38:51] Randall Roth: Is it Waikiki or Makiki?
[0:38:52] Caller: It's Makiki.
[0:38:53] Randall Roth: Oh, well, what do you have for us in Makiki, Steve?
[0:38:56] Caller: Well, a few years ago in the paper, uh, there was some talk about uh, as there has been every now and then, the FBI doing a giant uh study uh white collar crime, you know, this thing boiling up and soon, you know, there's going to be some big revelation, but it seems they never come to pass. I'm sure white collar crime investigation is really tough, uh especially in states like Hawaii, but I wonder if Robbie Olm or maybe the chief or any of your guests have anything to say about that issue.
[0:39:27] Randall Roth: About white collar crime?
[0:39:29] Caller: Right.
[0:39:29] Randall Roth: Okay. Mike, is that something that uh you folks at the police department spend a lot of time with?
[0:39:36] Michael Nakamura: Well, white collar crime really uh as far as the economy is concerned in this state is is an area that we really need to concentrate more on. Uh I'm not familiar with the FBI report that the caller is referring to, uh perhaps uh Steve might
[0:39:51] Randall Roth: Oh, I I think he's he's referring. Uh year to ago there were rumors that the Wahi administration uh had had engaged in some sort of land transaction or whatever that had generated an FBI report but there was never any confirmation of that and I think a lot of people feel it was nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumor. Steve, is is that what you're referring to?
[0:40:12] Caller: Well, I'm not sure that it was unsubstantiated but I haven't heard any substantial discussion since the article, so maybe it is.
[0:40:19] Randall Roth: Well, I tell you what, we're going to take some more callers, but I've got Steve Olm on the line, and when we go to him in just a little bit, as the U.S. Attorney, we'll we'll ask him uh about that as well as anything else that that he wants to comment on.
[0:40:32] Caller: Thank you, Randy.
[0:40:33] Randall Roth: Thank you, Steve. We have Fay in Waikiki. Good morning, Fay.
[0:40:36] Caller: Good morning. Uh, I would just like to make a comment. I don't have a question. All I have lots of questions, but uh, I think that it would do well that those who do set policy in these matters would, uh, perhaps be more educated in sociology and anthropology. And I remember reading a very interesting essay by Margaret Meade about uh how society will never get rid of crime if society does not attend to uh social the sociological side of um well developing society.
[0:41:24] Caller: And um I mean, for example, here in Hawaii, we uh can see a wide wide gap between the wealthiest and the poorest. And yet we will pour our money as a state into projects that uh seem to perpetuate this problem of crime. For example, a convention center, a convention center might be turned into a youth development center instead of the convention center. That's just my comment.
[0:41:56] Randall Roth: Okay, well, I appreciate your comment. Uh, we've got several more people on the line. Dave from Kahiohey, uh, do you have a question or a brief comment for our guest?
[0:42:05] Caller: It's a sort of a combination of both. This has not come up before. I lived for some years in Hoola, and among my friends out there were people who had been associated in various ways with Oahu Prison or Koala Boy's Home. Many of these people and their relatives viewed Oahu Prison or Koala Boy's Home, not as a punishment, but as a reward. Koala being uh perhaps the same thing as high school and Oahu State Prison being uh more like college. As such, the deterrent effect comes to be called into question.
[0:42:44] Randall Roth: Yeah, I I guess so. Well, let me let me ask our guest to respond to that. Mike, do you have any thoughts on that?
[0:43:01] Michael Nakamura: Yes, well the deterrent effect is is uh only in the in the in the point that during the the period of incarceration that individual is not out in the streets victimizing, uh that that's the only point of of deterrent. I I think Ted can address the the other question.
[0:43:07] Ted Sakai: Right, when a person goes to prison or could a youth facility, his his or she freedom is taken away. It's it's not an easy life. Um we are required to provide certain basics, you know, three square meals, uh attention to medical needs, uh certain a certain level of activity, but even more important I think is that it's incumbent upon us as a state to try to address the needs the program needs that we talked about earlier because
[0:43:37] Ted Sakai: because as Dr. Chadwick said earlier, the we've got to worry about the outputs. Most, just about every one of the people who's incarcerated today in our prisons and jails will come out someday and we've got to ask ourselves how do we want them to come out.
[0:43:55] Randall Roth: Yeah, Mike.
[0:44:01] Michael Nakamura: Yes, I I agree with Ted in that point. We we need to view the time that the the prisoner is incarcerated as as uh we need to use that as an opportunity to provide treatment and rehabilitation because otherwise all you're providing to that that inmate inmate is a chance to network with other criminals. And that that's something you need to break. You need to provide him with the opportunities to break out of that that that form.
[0:44:25] Randall Roth: Okay, Dave.
[0:44:26] Caller: Well, that's exactly it, but you haven't really addressed my question. I agree entirely with what you said, but how do we get these people to view this as punishment in spite of the severity?
[0:44:36] Randall Roth: Okay. Next question, maybe throw this out.
[0:44:38] Caller: Yeah, well I I I have to move on and that's such a provocative question.
[0:44:42] Michael Nakamura: I'm try I'm trying to throw a quick suggestion out as
[0:44:44] Randall Roth: Okay, go ahead.
[0:44:45] Michael Nakamura: Okay, we're hurting for space, is there any chance that we can send people to the mainland? This would be a bit of a devastating thing and might add to the deterrent effect.
[0:44:53] Randall Roth: Okay, Ted.
[0:44:54] Ted Sakai: We we could. The the problem is that number one, we have to pay for that, and we pay we would pay thousands of dollars for each person that we send and we just don't have the money. And secondly, just about every system in the country is overcrowded, so what we found is that every time we offer what we propose to send an inmate, the the receiving state will say, well, you got to take one of ours back.
[0:45:16] Randall Roth: Mhm. Okay. Well, Okay, last question.
[0:45:18] Caller: Dave, I have to move on, I really do. You've asked some super questions and made a great suggestion but I've got to move on. Throw this one out. Can you make educational achievement a condition of parole?
[0:45:30] Randall Roth: Educational achievement a condition of parole. Ted, quick answer.
[0:45:34] Ted Sakai: Uh it's uh inmates are not required to participate in education before they get parole, but they're not achievement is not part of it. It's it's an important point because about 55% of the inmates who come to us are functionally illiterate. So that's something worth considering.
[0:45:51] Randall Roth: Thank you, Dave. You know as I was listening and and Dave did ask some extremely provocative questions, I remember reading a month or so ago about how certain prisoners and I remember, I forget now why they were treated this way, but they had somehow done something wrong and they were made to wear pink uniforms and and evidently that warden thought that that was a real deterrent to whatever behavior was being punished.
[0:46:14] Randall Roth: Uh you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests in the studio are Michael Nakamura, who is the Chief of Police here in Honolulu, grew up in Kalihi, graduated from Farrington High School, has a degree in law enforcement from Chaminade, and raises orchids. We also have Ted Sakai, who's the head of Corrections Services for the Hawaii Department of Public Safety, and as such is responsible for all of these um uh convict programs that we've been talking about uh this morning.
[0:46:43] Randall Roth: He has several degrees in political science from the University of Hawaii. We also have on the phone and we're going to go to them in just a bit, Steve Olm, who is the US Attorney, and as such, the top law enforcement officer uh here in Hawaii for the federal government and Mary Jane McMurdo, who's the chair of the House committee on Public Safety. We've got several more callers on on the line, but before we go to them, I want to see if uh if Steve Olm and then Mary Jane McMurdo have any thoughts on what they've been listening to for the last 45 minutes or so. First, Steve Olm, our US Attorney, are you there?
[0:47:14] Caller: Yeah, hi, Randy. The uh the point about white collar crime is very well taken. We have nearly 40% of our lawyers working on those kind of cases. And they are difficult to investigate and prosecute, but bank fraud, income tax fraud, healthcare fraud, political corruption, those are all very important things. They cost people a lot of money and they're ones that we will continue on doing it. The uh bringing gambling to Hawaii would be a way to certainly increase all of our white collar crime problems and I and I hope we are able to avoid that.
[0:47:48] Caller: I did want to uh make one brief point on something that Leonard had brought up regarding uh people being sent to prison willy nilly. That is absolutely not the case. When it it if uh anybody would go down to the state prison, I mean go down to the uh state courthouse, the judges there look at each case individually and people that are convicted of non-violent offenses are almost never sent to prison the first time. When they're put on probation they're given numerous tries to try to get their lives straightened out, and and it just doesn't work. Often people are sent to prison because they just cannot comply with the conditions of probation.
[0:48:25] Caller: And it's hard enough to get to put somebody into treatment but they it's got to take and they've got to want to make it take. So I think as a lot of people have said, it's a problem that our whole society is going to want to, is going to need to get behind and say this kind of drug abuse is hurting everybody and we've got to stop it because it is hurting all of us.
[0:48:44] Randall Roth: Okay, and by stop it, uh you're talking in terms of the community supporting uh additional funding for all of the things that we've been talking about today?
[0:48:52] Caller: Yes, the community supporting it including the you know, the cash box and programs that the HPD and the prisons are doing, as well as just looking at each other in society and saying, don't do this. Don't do this uh don't take ice, you're hurting yourself, you're hurting your family and and making it something that is not a cool thing to do, that is not a neat thing to do.
[0:49:14] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Steve. We really appreciate uh your thoughts on all of that. We've got Mary Jane McMurdo, who's the chair of the House committee on Public Safety. Mary Jane, uh have you been listening to all of this?
[0:49:24] Caller: I yeah, well, part of it I got cut off but that's okay.
[0:49:28] Randall Roth: Okay, our summer interns are out there uh looking really embarrassed right now.
[0:49:32] Caller: You don't need to, that happens. Okay. Blame it on the telephone company.
[0:49:36] Randall Roth: They'll blame it on me, but go ahead.
[0:49:38] Caller: Uh uh three quick things. First of all, there are a couple of other facets of things that we can do for inmates in a prison, which help them when they do get out. One of those is the Correctional Industries program, uh which is not only self-supporting, but the state actually net six to $8 million from this activity. And you what this does is to train inmates or allow them to do various not just cottage industries, they're involved in printing a great deal of the uh state uh you know, all the all the paper that gets turned out in our state.
[0:50:21] Randall Roth: Mary Jane, I know that's just one of three points you're making. Hold your your thoughts just for a moment. I I want to ask Ted Sakai, I read something in the newspaper the other day, uh actually it was in the Wall Street Journal. It wasn't focused on the situation in Hawaii, but it indicated that we've had for many years laws that evidently had been pushed by by organized labor that prohibit uh convicts in prison from working in in in most areas unless they're paid union scale which as a practical matter, means they simply can't do it and that that's the reason why there's so much idle time in prison.
[0:51:01] Caller: Yeah, we had some some this time, but we were able to get the bill through.
[0:51:05] Randall Roth: Mary Jane, let me let me ask Ted um, you know, whether I've just got a a misconception on the federal level because I'm talking about a federal law now and then I want to come back to to Mary Jane on on on our our Hawaii laws.
[0:51:19] Ted Sakai: There's a federal law that says if if prisoners produce goods and services that that enter interstate commerce, we've have to pay the the minimum wage or the prevailing wage, whichever is higher. We do have some programs like that and they are very successful. We have some good state laws. Representative McMurdo and others have helped us get through.
[0:51:39] Randall Roth: Okay. So to to emphasize that word, I I think I heard interstate. So, as long as they're doing work that doesn't involve transferring products or whatever to the mainland or or outside of Hawaii, then you can put them to productive work.
[0:51:54] Ted Sakai: That's correct. We have about 300 inmates who are in correctional industries doing work for the state government and the county governments and they make between 38 cents an hour to a dollar an hour.
[0:52:05] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Mary Jane, that does sound like uh a good direction to go. What else do you have?
[0:52:10] Caller: Well, the uh second thing that I wanted to mention is boot camp, which we did not give the money for this year. We had to establish very tight priorities, and the drug court and drug programs are right up there at the top. Uh, but uh there have been people from the Public Safety Department who have been uh going back to the mainland looking into the boot camps back there, especially in Georgia, which has a tremendous number of them.
[0:52:41] Caller: We right here have the National Guard youth challenge, which has been highly successful, and I would like to see the legislature look at funding boot camp and helping the Department of Public Safety get a program like that started.
[0:52:58] Randall Roth: Okay, and I notice Mike Nakamura nodding his his agreement. Mike, do you want to comment on that before we go to Mary Jane's third point?
[0:53:04] Michael Nakamura: Yes, the uh Well, when Mary Jane mentioned the youth challenge, that was that is a project of the uh the Hawaii National Guard. Uh, that's an excellent program, and right now it's in jeopardy of losing some some federal funds. And if we have any supporters out there or non-supporters, it's it's a time to change your attitude and and support this. It's a very worthy project.
[0:53:28] Randall Roth: Yeah, and I assume individuals can support these things. It doesn't just take government money, right?
[0:53:32] Michael Nakamura: No, it doesn't take just government money, but what I'm doing is is uh asking for uh some supporters to write to our congressional delegation in Washington to have them to uh support this program. It's an excellent program.
[0:53:46] Randall Roth: Okay. Mary Jane, your your third point?
[0:53:48] Caller: Okay, my third point touches on the other story that was in the paper today. Uh, again, these are things that came out of either the uh uh legislative auditors work or out of the Corrections Population Management Commission. And that is that this year we had to give $4 million emergency money to take care of the overtime of uses and lockdowns were specifically mentioned as a way of getting control of the situation. Now this is what the Department of Public Safety is trying to do. Uh there have been abuses of sick leave and of overtime and it has been extremely bad.
[0:54:33] Caller: Now uh this does interfere with our drug treatment, our sex offender treatments, our school programs, but first priority. If we don't have to pay our $4 million extra, just think of the money that we would have available to put on these other programs.
[0:54:53] Randall Roth: Mary Jane, um let me ask Ted Sakai because this also has been in the news uh a lot including a a front page article in this morning's advertiser. As I understand it Ted, uh on any given day, in in the past, the the the Public Safety Department has been doing some things that Mary Jane just mentioned here recently, but inspiring those changes was the fact that on any given day as many as as half of the prison guards were calling in sick.
[0:55:21] Randall Roth: And I believe uh uh people or a lot of people have suggested that that this is an abuse of of the system, that they they really aren't sick. And some people feel that it's because at least in the past that's forced Public Safety to uh hire other guards to work overtime and that overtime has gotten to be a a way for prison guards to make, you know, a lot more money than what was ever intended.
[0:55:45] Randall Roth: And I think this this lockdown approach is that you folks have said, uh if we don't have as many guards as normal, then we simply don't provide various services on that particular day. The uh the prisoners just stay in their cell for example as opposed to going in for uh anger control classes or whatever the program might otherwise be. Uh number one, have I correctly described uh correctly summarized uh these events? And number two, uh what are your thoughts on it because I think Mary Jane raises a a very important uh aspect of of this challenge.
[0:56:19] Ted Sakai: I I think you've correctly summarized the issue. Uh let let me make two points. Number one, as regards abuse, there are provisions in our contract with the union whereby we can determine whether or not an individual is abusing his or her sick leave, and we are implementing those procedures. We don't know as of yet, we we haven't determined as of yet whether there is any abuse. Secondly, the the our director George Aeronon had to do something because as Mary Jane said it the over overtime has become a tremendous burden on the system.
[0:56:53] Randall Roth: In fact, the article this morning said $7 and a half million dollars was paid in overtime last year. That's Correct, the $4 million that Representative McMurdo referred to is simply the amount over the total department budget that we had to request from the legislature. A lot of money. It is a lot of money. It's uh so our warden at Halawa guy Hall has has a very tough decision to make three times a day. For every watch, he has to see how many people he has and then he has to determine which whether programs go or not. It's it's a really tough situation. You guys are under a lot of pressure right now.
[0:57:28] Randall Roth: It's a there's a tremendous amount of pressure. Okay. Well, we have three callers waiting and they've been waiting very patiently, and we've only got about three or four minutes so we're going to move real quickly. First, Howard in in Olawai. Howard, good morning.
[0:57:41] Caller: Yeah, good morning. Uh why don't we build more prisons on the neighbor islands?
[0:57:46] Randall Roth: Okay. Great question, Ted Sakai. Why don't we? Well, we we look we looked at the the big prison over at the Kulani site, the 1000 bed that the previous administration looked at. It uh seems like a very attractive idea, but just to get the infrastructure, the sewer, the electricity and the water up, it would have cost something like 25 to $40 million. It's a tremendous expense. Uh prisons are very difficult to build.
[0:58:13] Randall Roth: In in fact, in your article in this morning's advertiser, you you had mentioned the money we're talking about, uh in theory is enough to buy each of these convicts uh a condo in Boston and send them to Harvard every year. That's correct. Tremendous amount of money. Uh Howard, appreciate your call. We need to move on to Joanna, I believe it is on Maui. Joanna, good morning.
[0:58:33] Caller: Hi, good morning. Thanks for taking my call. Um I just wanted to say that I'm in the process of conducting a tutor training at the Maui County correctional facility, um teaching inmates to tutor other inmates in literacy. I think this is an untapped resource and certainly cheap. I know that uh there are other literacy providers on all of the other islands where there are correctional facilities and this could be something that could um work out nicely for the system, low cost and high return. I would hazard a guess that if uh there are 55% rate of illiteracy in the um intake into the prison system. I imagine the rate uh the illiteracy rate and recidivism is much higher. Thank you.
[0:59:14] Randall Roth: Okay, thank you, Joanna. Ted, any thoughts on that quickly? It's a tremendous idea. We have a lot of a lot of ability among the inmates, a lot of native ability and what we we we wanted to do is bring it out, but I certainly will pursue that. Okay. Dick from Kailua, good morning.
[0:59:29] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Uh I uh I realized that Jocelyn Elder is one of the reasons she got uh fired from her job as Surgeon General by raising the question of whether the drug policy uh should be re-examined, but Decriminalize it, right?
[0:59:47] Randall Roth: Yeah, that's what she was. She didn't say decriminalize it, she said should we debate the issue. Right. And she got a lot of trouble for that. Yeah, and a heck of a lot of trouble. And uh what we heard today, one of the things we heard, for example, is that uh some people are committing up to 200 property crimes here in Hawaii. Those are dangerous, potentially dangerous things and I uh think the evidence will show that a lot of that is driven by our drug policy, that is the the need to get money to feed a drug habit. And I wonder whether it is possible it is possible in this state to have an open and fair debate on the question of whether our drug policy should be changed.
[1:00:29] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, that's a a great question. And and I'll try to answer it by saying that in a about a month, we're going to have a program uh on that very issue. Uh we've got Don Topping from the University of Hawaii who's going to be on one side of the issue and uh Dan Bent, former US attorney and and somebody who pushed real hard on a uh piece of legislation that went through um the state legislature this year on uh on the other side of that issue, and hopefully we will have just that Dick, an intelligent conversation about uh a subject that um that generates a lot of emotion. Thank you for your call. We're down to 1 minute and Mike, you've got 20 seconds of us. Any thoughts that you want to share that you haven't been able to get out this morning?
[1:01:12] Michael Nakamura: Yes, uh we've painted a of a pretty grim picture of crime in in Hawaii or in Honolulu. I just want to balance that a little bit uh and refer to that article that came out in the Advertiser. Uh it it also listed Honolulu as one of the the safest cities uh in the nation. But when they grouped us, they grouped us with the cities with population of 100,000. Now Honolulu has a population of close to a million. And when you compare us to other mainland cities that are close to a million, uh we're right up there. We our crime rate is only uh less than 300. Our closest competitor is San Francisco, which is double.
[1:01:47] Randall Roth: Okay, the music means we're out of time. Ted, Mike, thank you very much. Steve and Mary Jane on the phone, thank you very much. Uh want to thank our producer, Susie Roth, our summer interns, Cassie Roth and uh Aaliyah Yav and uh Phillip Hutchinson is our technical director. We've had uh Cheryl uh Turbyville and Jim the cameraman from channel 2 here this morning and they've added to uh to the fun and uh and the uh the excitement of all of this. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

[Note: music outro 429 s]