Violent Criminals and Overcrowded Prisons
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1997-04-13
Guests: Dan Kahan (Professor, University of Chicago Law School); Peter B. Carlisle (Prosecuting Attorney, City and County of Honolulu); Dan Foley (civil rights lawyer; former Executive Director, ACLU of Hawaii)
Duration: 1:00:58

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: Mr. Paradice to bring this program to you, is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. Our airtime is paid for by the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that encourages grassroot efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that manages charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Well, if you've looked at today's focus section of the advertiser, you know that our show has to do with prison overcrowding and its implications. With me in the studio are Honolulu prosecutor Peter Carlyle and civil rights attorney Dan Foley.
[0:00:32] Randall Roth: Joining us by phone are Dan Kahan, a law professor at the University of Chicago, who has written extensively about alternative forms of punishment, Boyd Mosman, a judge from Maui who has allowed selected criminals to choose public humiliation as an alternative to jail, and Matt Matsunaga who currently is co-chair of the judiciary committee in the Hawaii State Senate. Also, we have Glenn McKay and Ted the cameraman from KHON. They're here taking the show down and if you want to watch their report tonight on Channel 2 news at 6 or 10, why we believe there'll be a report on our radio show today.
[0:01:07] Randall Roth: Dan Foley, you're a well known civil rights attorney here in Hawaii. I think you're a hero to many and a scoundrel to others. You've been associated with a number of very, very high profile cases, one of which has to do with prison overcrowding. I think an awful lot of people out there are very concerned about crime, but they find it hard to be concerned about prison overcrowding. They feel that that's a hardship to the people who are in prison, but they're in prison for a reason. They deserve to be there and it's just hard to sympathize with them. What do you say?
[0:01:40] Dan Foley: It's not a matter about sympathy because few people sympathize with convicted defendants or or sentenced felons or misdemeanants. The issue of overcrowding though is a constitutional issue, in our constitution, in our Bill of Rights, we prohibit cruel and unusual punishment and and due process violations. The federal judiciary over the last 20 plus years and interpreting and applying those provisions to our jails and prisons have said there are certain minimum standards that states and counties must adhere to and locking people up.
[0:02:12] Dan Foley: Overcrowding per se is not unconstitutional, but it's the conditions that follow overcrowding, unsafe, unsanitary, prison conditions, the absence of medical care, exercise and proper diets. The courts have said you must adhere to certain humane conditions. So, when you overcrowd prisons as was the experience here in Hawaii, you you run into unconstitutional conditions and then you run into federal court orders that basically take control of your prisons. And if you don't have proper planning, you have judges forcing the release of prisons instead of a more intelligent systematic planned process of keeping people in and and releasing people.
[0:02:49] Randall Roth: Now, as I understand it, 10 years or so ago you were with the ACLU, brought a lawsuit here in Hawaii and it resulted in one of these court-monitored consent decrees. And earlier this year, there was actually a lot of improvement and everything was all set to go to where the court would get out of the picture and then something happened. What?
[0:03:11] Dan Foley: Well, we're we're sort of returning to where we were in the early 1980s. The legislatures consistently, and the judges and the Hawaii Proling Authority despite what some politicians say, have been getting tougher on crime. Our inmates now serve longer sentences than almost any state in the union and it's increased just in the last three years. Um, but they don't provide the resources for locking up those inmates. So when you increase sentencing and don't increase prison space, you obviously end up with overcrowding and that's what's happening at the beginning of this year.
[0:03:44] Randall Roth: So it's more overcrowded now than before in this 10 year period of time?
[0:03:49] Dan Foley: No, but it's headed that way and that's the problem. It's it's conditions are not as bad as they were in 1984 when we sued the state, but they're headed in that direction.
[0:03:57] Randall Roth: So, basically you because of the US Constitution and the courts, simply aren't going to allow this overcrowding to continue.
[0:04:05] Dan Foley: That's correct.
[0:04:06] Randall Roth: Okay, Peter Carlyle, is it just a coincidence that when you became prosecutor, all of a sudden the prisons got even more overcrowded?
[0:04:14] Peter B. Carlisle: Absolutely not. Uh, I'd like to to to focus on what Dan said there because I think that the the dates are absolutely essential. If you take a look at what he complains about as 1984 as being just an absolutely dismal year uh, in terms of the conditions at the prison. It was a wonderful year in the community in terms of crime. Uh, we reached our rock bottom lows in the last 15 to 20 years in terms of index offenses uh, in 1984, 1985. There were fewer crimes in Honolulu in 1984, 1985 than there were in 1980.
[0:04:48] Randall Roth: Because you were catching them, convicting them and putting them in prison?
[0:04:51] Peter B. Carlisle: And they were getting mandatory sentences and nobody could let them out.
[0:04:54] Randall Roth: So what's happening now during this period of overcrowding?
[0:04:58] Peter B. Carlisle: For the last 10 years uh doing what Dan has done for us with this consent decree, they have made a point of uh doing to you have three ways of dealing with prison overcrowding. One is you reduce admissions, uh two you reduce length of stay or three you build, build, build. For the last 10 years under the consent decree, it's been A and B.
[0:05:18] Peter B. Carlisle: They've been reducing the number of criminals going to jail, they've been letting criminals who are in jail out in a in a faster period of time and they haven't been building prisons and as a result, there have been dangerous individuals who have been released who have come out and who have reoffended. So as a result, now we are reaching record levels of crime and uh we need to do something about it and it's essentially go back to the the systems that we had in the early 80s that were effective.
[0:05:40] Randall Roth: Tell me a little bit about your perception of the people who aren't going to prison or are getting out of prison prematurely because the prisons are are overcrowded. Are these people that that pose a threat to society? Don't pose a threat to society? Are these people who were convicted maybe of of smoking marijuana and many of us would not consider them a danger to the rest of us? Or are we talking about dangerous criminals not being in prison because of overcrowding?
[0:06:04] Peter B. Carlisle: It's across the board. It's not simply one group versus the other. We're now in the position where people are so fed up with some of the misdemeanor offenders that they're actually getting prison terms from judges and it includes some of the most dangerous types of individual. Sampson Cowhe for example, was released during that period. He was in for a 20 year sentence for uh aggravated robbery that included extreme violence towards individuals. He was released after merely seven or eight years and he went out and killed a woman. I have a very a deeply beloved babysitter who lives no more than three or four blocks away from where we sit.
[0:06:37] Randall Roth: So you would say prison overcrowding is a problem not just for the folks folks who are in there, but for everyone else because it does have an impact on us.
[0:06:45] Peter B. Carlisle: Absolutely unequivocally. If you don't uh if you're not in a position to incarcerate, what we need is enough to accommodate all the people who know to who need to go to prison, plus one bed. That's what we need.
[0:06:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Dan Kahan in Chicago. Good morning.
[0:06:58] Dan Kahan: Morning, Randy.
[0:06:59] Randall Roth: Uh, you've done a lot of writing about uh uh theories of of punishment and you've you've written that we have pretty much gone to incarceration as the punishment of choice. Uh, I think everybody understands that one advantage of putting a criminal in prison is that while they're there, they can't commit any crimes. Uh, but what are the other reasons why we have gone to prison almost exclusively or at least predominantly as our form of punishing people who do wrong?
[0:07:27] Dan Kahan: Uh well, Randy, as you point out, uh prison does serve that objective of incapacitation. Um and there's no excuse or no substitute uh for prison for serious offenses. Um the violent offenses, but we do use prison um for many other kinds of non-violent offenses. In fact, I'm in this country, uh most of the the inmates I'm in our prisons and our jails um are non-violent. Um and that's because prison is a is a complex institution. Um we use it to do more than one thing.
[0:07:54] Dan Kahan: Uh we use it to incapacitate, um but we also use it to make um a statement really, um to express uh the seriousness with which we take um the wrongdoing that a particular offender has engaged in. Um one way to see that that's um something people expect prison to do, um is just to look at the failure really um of reformers to be able to replace imprisonment um with other kinds of sanctions um that probably don't express moral condemnation effectively.
[0:08:21] Dan Kahan: Um lots of academics, um lots of reformers of diverse ideologies uh have believed that you could use uh prison sentences or rather these fines, um community service, other alternatives for uh non-violent offenders, um but the public um and the representatives and their judges have understandably resisted um that proposal um because they don't see those kinds of punishments as making the right kind of moral statement. Um if you find somebody that's like saying you can you can buy the privilege of breaking a law.
[0:08:49] Dan Kahan: Uh community service too seems to um to imply uh that uh that the offense isn't being taken that seriously because we're not using um a form of punishment um that people expect us to use and that shows we take the crime seriously. So part of what we're doing with prison um is something we can't do with anything else which is keeping dangerous people out of commission. Um but another thing we're doing with it um is just making a point about serious offenses and and uh Peter Carlyle mentioned that even some misdemeanants in some jurisdictions including Hawaii um are receiving the prison sentence. There, it's probably just to make the moral statement.
[0:09:22] Randall Roth: Well, in your article in this morning's advertiser, you talk about something that some people call shaming and I think it's related to this last statement about the need to make a moral statement. Could you tell us a little bit about that?
[0:09:33] Dan Kahan: Well, in fact, um Hawaii um and other states are now uh experimenting with shaming punishments or at least Judge Mosman um in Hawaii is experimenting with them and um shaming punishments really refer to any kind um of sentence the aim of which is to use publicity um or uh reputational injury as a way to punish um or regulate people. Um you can have signs, bumper stickers for drunk drivers, uh you can have newspaper advertisements. Um the the the hope, I think um behind this movement is to see whether you can find um some alternative for non-violent offenders um that does have this power to make a statement. Um and shaming panel penalties clearly do that.
[0:10:15] Dan Kahan: Um they also probably work as well as fines and community service um since the the non-violent offenders are people who generally uh take uh their standing in the community pretty seriously.
[0:10:26] Randall Roth: And when you say newspaper uh ads, you're you're talking about so and so beat his wife, uh something that would announce to the public that this person did a terrible thing?
[0:10:36] Dan Kahan: Exactly. Um in some jurisdictions uh non-violent sex offenders are required to take out uh full page advertisement um announcing that they've engaged in the offense. Um which by the way also might serve some incapacitation uh function. At least those people are then identified for the community. Um but the hope really is to um use something besides imprisonment for these offenders who don't seem to pose an ongoing uh risk to the community, precisely so you can free up your prison resources for the people who do do pose a threat.
[0:11:06] Dan Kahan: Um and Peter Carlyle talked about the early release of some violent offenders, um obviously that's intolerable. So what you want to do um is avoid having to use prison space for people um who are non-violent so you can keep the violent people in longer.
[0:11:18] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Dan. Next on the line, we have Judge Boyd Mosman. This is the fellow that Dan Kahan just referred to. Uh Judge Mosman, are you there?
[0:11:26] Caller: Yes, I am uh Randy.
[0:11:28] Randall Roth: Uh, your name has been mentioned in many many quarters where people have been talking about prison overcrowding. Has something to do with what Dan Kahan referred to as as an experiment that you're a part of. Uh could you tell us just what is it that you're doing over there?
[0:11:42] Caller: Well, we've uh implemented a program. We happen to call it the VAI program, voluntary alternative to incarceration and I do emphasize voluntary because in in our program here uh what we've done is uh as I sentence individual felons who have been convicted of felony crimes uh to to probation and and we've only done this in probation type situations as and including a condition of jail uh of up to one year. And those types of cases after they've been sentenced to jail, uh then I offer a selected number of them uh the opportunity to hold signs uh on our public highways and byways.
[0:12:28] Caller: Uh this provides them the decision whether or not they want to sit in jail for however long I have sentenced them to already or go out and face the public. Uh that is the the what we're doing here. Uh the the reason we've done it basically is is an alternative to them having to sit in jail. We do not do this on the uh the major cases uh in in any kind of violent uh crime cases uh the kind that I think Peter is is very much concerned about. Uh but we are looking at the these lesser types criminals who who do deserve jail, but uh this alternative is being given to them.
[0:13:06] Randall Roth: So you're not so much so much doing it because uh you feel badly for them, you don't want them to be in jail, as you put it they deserve jail, you're doing it because our jails are full?
[0:13:15] Caller: Well, I'm doing it for several reasons. Uh, the jails yes, are full and and we're we're looking at cost savings but that's not the major reason we're doing it. Uh we're we're looking at a more effective alternative basically. I'm looking at the defendant him or herself uh first and then deciding what what can I do to in make an impact on that individual. I'm looking at the public. Uh up until now, there's been very little accountability to the public. Uh there's nothing in the paper, nobody knows what's happening to these individuals.
[0:13:44] Caller: And so when you talk about public accountability, there's nothing like placing before the public real people who committed real crimes and are receiving real punishment for it.
[0:13:54] Randall Roth: Judge Mosman, let me ask you, is it working? And when I say is it working, number one, are you seeing these folks back in court after you have have had them standing by the roadside with a sign saying they're a crook of some sort. Um let's start with that.
[0:14:08] Caller: Yeah, and that's the primary reason or the focus we're looking at is to to prevent anybody from uh repeating their crimes and to reduce further crime in our population. It's not an easy thing to measure. Uh but let me just say this. This program has been going on since October so it's about six plus months and we have not had anybody since then come back.
[0:14:31] Caller: Uh I am in touch with the probation department at the six month interval. Uh I am starting now to require that uh the probation officer and the defendant who was sentenced, not sentenced but given the chance to hold a sign come to my chambers and we're going to take a look and see how that individual is doing. Uh so far like I say, so good. As regards cost savings, um if if we can look at about $100 per day as an estimate to house a defendant in a in a prison, uh we figure we've saved the state $172,000 over the last six months.
[0:15:08] Randall Roth: That's uh pretty amazing. I might add in talking to prison officials over here uh roughly 500 people who are inmates right now are people who were released early at one time. And so the early release program doesn't seem to be uh getting the the same sort of results that you at least temporarily or tentatively have uh have enjoyed.
[0:15:31] Caller: Yeah, well, you know, I'm the only judge doing it now and I don't mind that because uh we're kind of learning as we're going along and uh the the chief Justice has asked that I make a presentation to the judges at a later training session to be held this year and hopefully by then I'll have some better results.
[0:15:47] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, um, Judge Mosman, we appreciate uh your thoughts on that and if you don't mind staying on the line, I'd like to come back to you later in the show and hear any thoughts you might have about what you hear between now and then.
[0:15:57] Caller: Sure.
[0:15:58] Randall Roth: Thanks a lot. Next we go to Matt Matsunaga. Matt has been in the uh Hawaii state legislature for a number of years and this year is co-chair of the judiciary committee in the Senate. Matt, can you hear me?
[0:16:09] Caller: Yeah, good morning, Randy, and welcome back.
[0:16:10] Randall Roth: Uh, good morning. I know this is a real hectic time. We're down to the last couple days in the legislature. I also know that there're Actually, we have a couple more weeks left, Randy. Oh, a couple more weeks. Okay. Um sorry. Uh I also know that there are, I think I know, that there are a number of bills pending that have something to do with this topic and two of them that I want to specifically ask you about. Uh, the first one has to do with what's called truth and sentencing, which as I understand it, would require that somebody who's been sentenced to prison would have to serve at least 85% of that time.
[0:16:44] Randall Roth: And then also there are a variety of proposals or have been a variety of proposals for more prison space. Could you tell us where these bills stand right now?
[0:16:53] Caller: Absolutely, Randy. I think the first measure, truth and sentencing is as what you stated. Um, the bills would basically give the judges a little bit more flexibility in their sentencing, but would require that the inmates serve 85% of what the judge actually sentences them to. Currently, we have uh what's called a indeterminate sentencing system uh whereby uh a judge sentences a prisoner to a maximal term and the parole authority decides what the minimum term that that inmate should serve. And um, what unfortunately happens is I think the public is left out in the dark, not knowing how much time uh the inmate is actually going to serve.
[0:17:33] Caller: And I think this is going to shift a lot of the responsibility from the polling authority over to the judges who perhaps would be in a better position to know how much that inmate should serve.
[0:17:42] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh the other bills?
[0:17:44] Caller: Uh, the second one was the uh prison space and uh, you know, we're faced with a situation where we have 3,500 inmates uh in a system that can only hold 2,700. Um, sure we have band aid uh fixes to send prisoners to Texas, but um unfortunately uh, as I believe Mr. Carlyle said, we really haven't focused on the capacity of the prison system in the past, and we really need to address that now.
[0:18:12] Randall Roth: Does it look as though the legislature is going to authorize the money to build a new prison?
[0:18:17] Caller: It looks that way. Um, I'm very optimistic. I think um the administration, the House and the Senate all recognize that more prison space uh is not a luxury, but a necessity.
[0:18:29] Randall Roth: What do you say to those people who look at the money involved and they say, my goodness, for the money you're spending on on these criminals, you could take uh some kid and uh buy that that person a condo in Boston and send them to Harvard, and and frankly that's the category that we're in so far as the cost of incarceration is concerned. What do you say to those critics?
[0:18:50] Caller: Well, Randy, there's no question that an effective crime prevention system should have three parts, that is education, prevention, and punishment.
[0:19:00] Peter B. Carlisle: Obviously, the best way to fight crime is to prevent it and we have focused a lot on education and prevention. Unfortunately, we have not focused enough on the punishment and the incarceration aspect. You need that third aspect in order to have effective crime prevention systems. We simply don't have that third aspect um, in our current system.
[0:19:20] Randall Roth: Mm-hmm. How are we going to get it if money is super tight and we're talking about allocating a very large sum to the construction and operation of more prisons?
[0:19:31] Peter B. Carlisle: Well, there's no question that money's tight. Um, uh, the, the prison, the, the cost of building prison would come out of our CIP budget and would require, um, the state incurring more debt. Uh, there's always the possibilities of seeing if private companies can build prisons cheaper than the state. And if we can privatize the construction of the prisons, um, and do it efficiently, and uh, so that it's done well, uh, perhaps that's an option that we need to look at.
[0:20:01] Randall Roth: Okay. We're going to be doing a show in, in two weeks on this Kono case, which I think a lot of our listeners maybe haven't heard much about, but it does, uh, a pretty big factor when we start talking about privatization.
[0:20:12] Peter B. Carlisle: Oh, absolutely. Maybe we can get your uh, your thoughts on that in a couple weeks when we do that show.
[0:20:17] Randall Roth: Matt, thank you very much. Can you stay on the line uh, for just a bit? That's great. Want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Ross and today's topic is prison overcrowding and its implications to everyone in this state. With me in the studio are Peter Carlyle and Dan Foley. Peter Carlyle is the recently elected uh, prosecutor for Honolulu County. Uh, he also is an adjunct professor at the University of Hawaii William S. Richardson School of Law. Also in the studio is Dan Foley, a well-known civil rights lawyer. He's a former legal director of the ACLU here in Hawaii. He's been lead counsel on a number of very high profile cases, and he too is an adjunct professor at the William S. Richardson School of Law.
[0:20:59] Randall Roth: By phone we have Dan Kahan, who is a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, has done a lot of writing about this topic. Uh, Dan was president of the Harvard Law Review. He clerked for Judge Harry T. Edwards of the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. Uh, also clerked for Justice Thurgood Marshall in the United States Supreme Court. Uh, to say Dan has some good academic credentials is a little bit of an understatement. We also have Judge Boyd Mossman from Maui. Uh, Boyd is a graduate of Kamehameha Schools, the, uh the U.S. Air Force Academy and George Washington Law School. Uh, he was a prosecuting attorney before becoming a judge and he's a fellow that a lot of us have heard about who's been experimenting with something known as shaming. And then also we have Matt Matsunaga. You just heard from Matt a few minutes ago. He's the co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
[0:21:50] Randall Roth: If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 955-8821. Uh, I've been gone for five months, so I'm not even sure if the number on the neighbor Islands is the same or are different. It used to be 1-800-955-8821. Yep. Jeff Ialardi our tech technical wizard out there is saying that's the number. So give us a call 955-8821 here on Oahu, or 1-800-955-8821 on a neighbor island. Well, let's go to a caller. First we have Steve from Waikiki. Good morning, Steve.
[0:22:21] Caller: Good morning and it's really nice to have you folks back live.
[0:22:24] Randall Roth: Thank you.
[0:22:25] Caller: Uh, we've missed you. Um, two real short questions. First real short question. Um, a lot of credit is taken by public administra- public officials for uh, crime statistics and crime going up, crime going. Not, they don't take much credit for crime going up, but crime going down and and pointing to uh, their recent efforts. Uh, but one thing I think the public needs to take into account, now my question is, are not the crime statistics really locked in over all of the periods that we've seen recently, to the demography. In other words, as the population gets older and the proportion of young males between 18 and 24 goes down, crime statistics go down automatically. And and really this is never taken much into account when people talk about the effectivess and not effectivess of the programs. The fact is that demography seems to rule things.
[0:23:09] Randall Roth: Steve, let me get a reaction to that from a couple of our guest. First, Dan Kahan in Chicago. Dan, did you hear the question?
[0:23:16] Dan Kahan: Um, I did hear the question and and I think Steve is absolutely right that there are some um, bigger social forces um, including um, just the, the size of the population of people um, who you might expect to commit crimes. Um, that explain a lot of the, the variation in crime rates across places and across times. Um, although there is um, at least a portion of the variation that that you can't explain that way. Um, and and you sometimes do uh, see policies working, seeming to work um, or not work um, and having an effect. Um, maybe just as one, a short, brief um, example of this, um, a lot of us are familiar with the dramatic drop um, say that New York City has had in crime in the last three or four years. Um, and there really hasn't been a significant change in the demographics um, in that city. Um, so I would agree with Steve that that's going to the demographics are going to explain most of it, um, but there's probably still a pocket left over um, where what we do with law makes a difference.
[0:24:10] Randall Roth: Okay. Peter Carlyle here in, in the studio, if I read correctly your piece in this morning's Advertiser, one of the points you made was that uh, aging is a wonderful rehabilitator. Did I get that right?
[0:24:22] Peter B. Carlisle: 100% true. One of the things in terms of the curve of criminality is that uh, younger people tend to offend more frequently and as you get older, uh they tend not to be recidivists uh, with the, the same degree of uh, certainty. Uh, but one of the things I want to point out to your question Steve is that we don't treat all aged defenders in the same fashion. When we were having the great success from 1980 to 1985, the people who were the most criminally active were 18 to 22 year olds. That is no longer the case. The people who are the most criminally active are now anywhere from 14 up to 18 years old, and they're in an entirely different penal system. So that in and of itself means that the demographics aren't actually catered to by our our penal system. The people who are the most crime prone are the ones who are least likely to face penal sanctions because they're in the juvenile system.
[0:25:13] Randall Roth: Okay. Steve, you had another question.
[0:25:14] Caller: Yeah, a real short question. An innovative judge in the mainland was recently publicized a lot in the papers for his treatment of two young offenders who I believe were Native Americans, either I don't know if they were American Indians or Inuits or what. And in which their uh, punishment was to be sent back to their own tribal elders who isolated them on remote islands off the coast of Alaska. I remember right, I think this was uh, well publicized. And the idea was for the judge trying to use um, native community systems of punishment to see, you know, whether they would work. So my question is, is there anybody thinking about any plan to implement, anybody, you know, taking into account the fact that we now have this renewed interest in Hawaiian sovereignty and and and native practices to think of ways and means of using uh, native Hawaiian community attitudes and methods toward uh, toward crime and reducing crime in our state?
[0:26:11] Randall Roth: Okay, Judge Mossman. I'll hang up and listen. Okay, thank you Steve. Judge Mossman on Maui, did you hear Steve's question?
[0:26:16] Caller: Uh, yes, I did.
[0:26:17] Randall Roth: Uh, any thoughts?
[0:26:18] Caller: Well, uh, I believe in our family court system, um, the, uh the courts are utilizing Ho'oponopono to some degree, uh, from what I I have heard especially in Honolulu and that is a Hawaiian, uh, custom and cultural uh, way of, of solving problems, uh, and and they're using it with juvenile defendants as I understand. As regards any other further uh, utilization of, uh similar systems, uh, I can only say that at least in the, in the circuit court area and the adult level, we're we're bound by, by the laws and the statutes and uh, right now, um, uh as far as I am aware, there's no provisions uh, that would allow uh, going outside of whatever the sentencing laws provide and I'm I'm not aware that uh, there are any Hawaiian or other cultural programs or practices or customs that um, would, would be uh, appropriate for this.
[0:27:16] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh, let's go to another caller. Ernest in Honolulu. Good morning Ernest.
[0:27:20] Caller: Would like to focus on um, the question that you asked and I think it was in the form of a question of Senator Matsunaga in relating the cost of incarceration to that of sending someone to college. Um, and I think that my perception is that you wanted to fix on the the cost and how uh, anyone having to pay it, like a taxpayer, uh, would try to get some idea of what the cost is of incarcerating a prison prisoner in Hawaii.
[0:27:54] Randall Roth: Right. That's right. It's very, very high and that was the point I was trying to make and, and Judge Mossman, I think also, um made the point.
[0:28:02] Caller: And I don't think you were relating to the need for education of of prisoners per se, although I'm not against that. Uh, that's right. Um, and so the I would like to get an answer. What is the cost of incarceration? The other thing that I would like to bring up and I would like to hear discussed is wonderful build more prisons. It isn't just capital improvements, budget money, we're going to swell the ranks of officers inside of those prisons. And when we hire new people, we pay for them as taxpayers, until they go into the grave. Thank you.
[0:30:35] Randall Roth: a realization I've had with prison officials over the last few days. Uh, the cost of construction on a per bed basis will vary a lot depending upon the type of facility. Uh, in Hawaii, over the last 10 years, it's been as low as I think $110,000 per bed to as high as $433,000 per bed. So at best, it's a very, very high number. The operating cost average in Hawaii about $30,000 per inmate per year. The 300 that we've sent to Texas, we're paying about 15,000 per inmate per year, but the economists will tell you that's money that's gone from the state system. Uh, if we spend it here in Hawaii, why it gets uh, recirculated here in Hawaii. So there are some very important economic as well as political issues involved in sending prisoners to Texas. And as I mentioned, this Kono case that we're going to address directly in two weeks introduces a legal issue as well. So, uh, we'll leave it at that and go to Elizabeth on Maui. Good morning Elizabeth.
[0:31:30] Caller: Good morning and I am so happy that we're talking about this. Thank you very much. Um, for a long time I've been wanting to ask this question of the appropriate people. I've had experience with this and I believe that if we invest more in youth, while they have energy and not enough direction and understanding of their roles and connection to society, why don't we advertise and utilize the um, conservation core more? And catch people before they go bad, you know, before they have no recourse and families go down the drain because they can't get out of that trap and then it would cost less.
[0:32:06] Randall Roth: Elizabeth, uh, you're you're making a real good point and if you don't mind, I'm going to take that as a comment, and I know Dan Foley wrote in the advertiser this morning some things quite quite similar. Uh, so if it's okay because our lines are full and, and as soon as somebody gets off, someone else gets on, we'll take that as a, a good comment. Thank you, Elizabeth.
[0:32:23] Caller: Thank you for your time.
[0:32:26] Randall Roth: You bet. Let's go to Ann from Honolulu. Good morning Ann.
[0:32:29] Caller: Hello.
[0:32:30] Randall Roth: Yes, Ann, you're on the air.
[0:32:32] Caller: Uh, this is Dan. Oh, and I on?
[0:32:35] Randall Roth: Yes, you're on.
[0:32:36] Caller: Uh, I certainly wanted to, if I had use and finances, I would try to start this. I, I wish, uh, some other activist could take over and I would love to help. The AC- This is all driven, uh, I believe our lack of prison space and our big problem is driven by the ACLU and civil rights of the prisoner. What about the civil rights of the public? Why can't we get the ACLU to take a case for the public, our civil rights are being abused terribly by letting these prisoners out.
[0:33:09] Randall Roth: Okay, and is this Terry from Oili Oili?
[0:33:11] Caller: Yes.
[0:33:12] Randall Roth: Okay, Terry, let me direct your, your question or your comment to uh, Dan Foley. Uh, Dan, I think a lot of people uh, associate you with the ACLU and associate you with some positions that that sometimes are, are unpopular, um, but you've got the Constitution on your side, I guess.
[0:33:30] Dan Foley: People give too much credit or discredit to the ACLU. It's the Constitution and Federal Judiciary that issues orders, uh, not the ACLU. If it were just the ACLU, I'm sure we'd be ignored. As far as public safety, that's very much a part of prison conditions. Uh, bad prison conditions contribute to bad public safety. When Peter talked about the good old days in the 1980s, part of those good old days were locking up sex offenders without treatment, and releasing them without treatment, without proper supervision. Part of the requirements of the consent decree entered into were to begin sex offender treatment programs in prison. They are not now released from prison until they've completed those programs, and continue, continue those programs as a condition of parole. That has reduced recidivism. So, we also are interested in public safety and we have found that drug treatment and sex offender treatment programs in prison are consistent with public safety.
[0:34:30] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh, Terry, we appreciate your, your call. Again, our lines are full, we're going to keep moving. Let's go to Ann in Honolulu. Good morning Ann.
[0:34:37] Caller: Yeah, good morning. Uh, I've been doing quite a bit of reading lately about crime and psychology, and I've come to the conclusion that many of the criminals on our streets, especially in the downtown and Chinatown area, if you know they're more the mainland guys. They're the products of, um, just unwed teenage mothers, and there's millions more of these guys are going to come. And I think in the future, the next 10 years or so, this country is going to have to have prisons that house like 20 million prisoners. And I don't think these guys are rehabilitatable. They, uh, you have to lock them up and throw away the key, because no amount of education is going to change them. These guys never had a family, they never had a father to guide them. Uh, they have nothing. They have nothing to lose by committing their crimes. Uh, you can't shame them, you can't do anything with them, and I fear millions more of these guys are going to come. Uh, have you looked at that aspect of it?
[0:35:31] Randall Roth: Uh, Ann, I want to put that off to the side and I want to invite all of our guests to respond to that. Okay.
[0:35:37] Randall Roth: Um, but we're going to have to tell people uh, what they're listening to and then tell them who the various guests are and I'm a little bit late on doing that and so we'll get to your question in just a minute. Okay. Okay. Appreciate your call. This is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Ross, today's topic is prison overcrowding and its implications to the people of Hawaii. With me in the studio are Peter Carlyle, the prosecutor for Honolulu County and Dan Foley, a well-known civil rights attorney here on Oahu. By phone we have Dan Kahan, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, Boyd Mossman, a circuit court judge on Maui, and Matt Matsunaga, the co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Uh, our lines have been full but we do have one open right now and so if you would like to ask a question or make a comment, just call us at 955-8821 or from a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. Also in the studio is Glenn Wakai and Ted the cameraman from KHON and Channel 2, and if you would like to see their report on today's show, you might tune in to the news at 6:00 or 10:00 tonight on Channel 2. Uh, right before we took that break, Ann um, made a statement. Let's have Dan Foley first and then we'll just go around the circle.
[0:36:45] Peter B. Carlisle: Ann makes a good point. I spent eight years in Micronesia, which were relatively close communities. And the more open those communities became, and the more movement you have from community to community, the less sense of responsibility and the more crime. So the fact that we are an open community, people can come and go at will, certainly uh, gives us less control. Someone who's a danger to the public um, shouldn't be released from prison and I would agree with Ann there. I think one of the functions of the Hawaii Paroling Authority is to look at people that have been in prison, to see what programs they have completed, what programs they have to complete, to look at their record of incarceration, and to decide uh, when it is appropriate to release such an individual. And that's one of the reasons, and one of the problems I have with truth and sentencing, that I think this discretion uh, should be maintained within the Hawaii Paroling Authority.
[0:37:35] Randall Roth: Okay. Also you know, as I was listening to Ann, I was reminded of of a statement you made in your article this morning about in California in 1980 they were spending 2% of their budget on prisons. They're projected in five years to be spending 18% of their budget on prisons.
[0:37:49] Peter B. Carlisle: That's correct, and that's according to a Rand Corporation study. Um, we have found that you cannot build your way out of overcrowding. If you supply a bed, uh, someone
[0:38:00] Randall Roth: And will come and fill it. And it doesn't necessarily reduce crime. It certainly incapacitates that individual and he's not committing a crime while he's incarcerated. But when you take that money away from schools and put it into prison, it's working against prevention. Okay. Let's get one other thought on Anne's comment. Uh Judge Mossman, are you still there? Judge Mossman on Maui, are you there?
[0:38:21] Caller: Yes, I am.
[0:38:22] Randall Roth: Uh, any thoughts on Anne's comment?
[0:38:23] Caller: Well, just just real briefly that I agree that uh, you know, dangerous criminals cannot be released and should not be released and and that's why in in any kind of alternative type approaches, you you got to exclude those and you got to identify those and don't allow them to participate in alternatives which might uh offer their uh a release to the community in some way or other. Here, we have to be selective and with the sign holding we are selective. Uh one out of five defendants who has appeared before me in the last six months has been offered the opportunity to hold signs. And so when I do that, I expect that the others who are not offered the opportunity that are sentenced to prison or jail will be held. And and that's because I am concerned about the, you know, their dangerousness, etc.
[0:39:10] Randall Roth: Okay. Judge Mossman, can you real quickly just give us uh say three or four, five examples of the sorts of offenses that uh in your mind would qualify someone as a good candidate for this alternative to prison?
[0:39:21] Caller: Yeah, maybe I can just read off uh the sign, some of the signs that I've uh ordered them to uh hold. Now, be aware that they they wear their names prominently around their necks on a sign, and then they hold another sign. But this is a type of crimes and I'll just read a couple of them off here, a few of them. Uh beware, I rip off cars, but after this, I won't. I stole for my employer. Now I must pay back. I involved kids in credit card crimes. I cheated welfare, I promise to pay back. I got drunk, I got stupid, I got jail. Uh beware reckless driver with hot temper. Uh recovering tax thief, probation violator, not too smart. And finally, marijuana affects the brain. Don't do it.
[0:40:10] Randall Roth: You know Judge Mossman, I I you're your poet of sorts. Uh my friend Peter Carlyle here uh in the studio would like to ask you a question.
[0:40:18] Peter B. Carlisle: Uh Judge Mossman Boyd, I what I'm curious about is when given that option, have you ever had a defendant say, I would prefer to go to jail rather than uh take the public shaming or humiliation?
[0:41:00] Caller: Yes. Interesting. Thank you. What's the What's the percentage on that? Well, let me put it this way. One person told me that and I sentenced that person to six months jail. Uh that was the sentence, and then I gave her the opportunity to to hold the sign. She said, no, I'd rather serve jail. And later on, her attorney told me that it was because the family did not want this individual holding signs. And uh so, under those circumstances, I told the attorney, if the person changes uh his or her mind, uh I will reconsider and allow that person to hold a sign. Three weeks later, that person changed the mind and then I asked that person at the return day after the sign had been held for four days, did you uh, did you prefer holding the sign or did you prefer sitting in jail? And she says, you know, it's easier to sit in jail than to hold the sign. And she said that as I held the sign out there, I felt like each time anybody passed me by and looked at me, that I was being judged one more time. So when you think of the thousands of people that went by that individual, it kind of demonstrates the effectiveness of this uh this alternative.
[0:42:02] Randall Roth: Okay. Well I in just a few minutes, I'm going to go to Dan Kahana on the mainland and Matt Matsunaga here on Oahu again. But we've got some people who've been waiting very, very patiently on the line and uh and I want to get to them. First, Margaret from Molokai. Good morning, Margaret.
[0:43:06] Caller: Good morning. Can you hear me?
[0:43:08] Randall Roth: I sure can. Do you have a question or a comment for our guests?
[0:44:02] Caller: I have a a quick comment and a question for um Senator Matt Matsunaga. Um he mentioned three aspects to um our criminal education or criminal system. Education, prevention, and incarceration. I would like him to share with us, please, some education and prevention programs he may be aware of, and also um the need to use our capital improvement moneys to build more prisons. Uh those are also the moneys that are used to build schools and classrooms. And Molokai High School is very overcrowded and we were just informed that a new A-classroom building that was in the works right up to the plan, teachers choosing where they would like to have certain things in the classroom had been pulled. Okay. And um literacy rates are very low. You will find that prevention is very important.
[0:45:54] Randall Roth: Okay. Margaret, let me direct your question to Matt. Matt, can you hear me?
[0:46:55] Caller: Yes, yes. Yeah, very good question, Margaret. And I know you've been discussing these sorts of things in the legislature on a daily basis and I know this could be a show by itself. Uh, but can you give us a quick response to Margaret Margaret's question? Certainly. Well, first of all, there's never, unfortunately, enough money to go around to all the worthy causes that need it in dealing with the budget. Um, the state certainly does do its share of providing for education. and as a matter of fact, if you look at our operating budget, it's something like one third of our total operating budget goes for lower and higher education. So, it is not something that we in the we in the legislature uh take lightly with regard to our obligation to educate. Um with regard to prevention, uh we do have several programs um aimed at uh giving youth the opportunity to participate uh in other activities. Um I I guess those are those were the uh most important aspects of um uh the two parts other than other than uh incarceration and punishment.
[0:50:56] Randall Roth: Matt, let me guess, as a legislator, you tend not to make anybody happy. It's just kind of compromising extreme positions. Is that part of the job?
[0:51:04] Caller: It it it's always difficult. Um by nature of our decisions, uh whatever we decide, some people will be happy and some people will not be happy.
[0:52:11] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, thanks for for responding to Margaret's excellent uh question. And I'm going to go to Nolan, who's a warden at 0CCC. Nolan, are you there?
[0:53:20] Caller: I am.
[0:53:21] Randall Roth: Well Nolan, you're right in the middle of all of this. What do you have to share with us? So, what what's the specific question?
[0:53:24] Caller: Well, just basically, I uh wanted to comment uh and hopefully get a reaction from both Dan and Peter uh regarding situation of, you know, practices amongst legislators, uh judges, and other entities who control who come into prison. Uh most often, as we read and try to address the problems and and and hear about it uh via different avenues such as this, we often only hear about the the method of reducing uh the population of the prison by addressing the sentenced people. Uh anyone who knows about a prison system understands that especially in Hawaii, uh if not half, maybe more of the people in prison are indeed not legally guilty of anything. They simply are guilty of um not having enough money to make bail. Uh granted there's a significant reason for them to be placed in uh pretrial confinement, but that is a huge group of the population. Uh again, taking up maybe half of the prison space we have, that is not addressed.
[0:53:24] Caller: I would I just like them to comment if they had any uh any ideas regarding the fact that a lot of people simply don't have money, and if they did, uh the prisons wouldn't be overcrowded to begin with.
[0:53:34] Randall Roth: Yeah, it hardly seems fair that it comes down to money. Let's start with Peter Carlyle and then we'll hear from Dan Foley.
[0:53:40] Peter B. Carlisle: I'd like to know the numbers on that, uh frankly, Nolan. I uh, because I'm concerned about two things. Obviously, if somebody has is charged with committing multiple murders or multiple rapes, uh having them committed either without bail or at very high bail makes a whole lot of sense. But if what you're telling me is that you've got somebody with a $25 uh you know, marijuana pop type thing into that they're sitting in jail and taking up space, that's something that I basically want to know. Uh, my understanding is that's uh a fairly unusual occurrence. The other thing that I'd like to see uh is that we get from the point of pre-trial detention to the point where they're actually sentenced a whole lot quicker. Uh the machinations that we have to go through to get somebody convicted are slow, arduous, pains taking, expensive, and in my mind, uh often merely mindless repetition of certain things. So, uh the sooner we could get to that point the better as well.
[0:54:27] Randall Roth: Let me, this is Randy Roth and Nolan, I'd like to ask you, uh you know what the people in in your facility are are there for. Are we talking about a significant number of people who have been accused of something other than a, than a terribly, terribly violent crime who are there because they can't make bail?
[0:54:45] Caller: Well, there's a lot of people there. Um past practices as as the prison prison space become more more uh tight, of course less and less people are coming in. I think early all on down the line, especially, you know from the point where people get arrested, all the way through the point they go through a reinforcement and get bail set. Uh I think less and less are coming because there is a cognizance of the prison overcrowding space. But I I constantly look at how everyone points at uh officials as releasing convicted prisoners. I I simply wanted to to put out on the on the carpet that there are a lot of people in prison, had they been able to make 5, 10, 15, 20, $30,000 bail, would not be there. And again, we would not be overcrowded had they uh been able to deliver that money.
[0:55:27] Randall Roth: And in the meantime, your hands are are tied, you can't just take everybody who's sent your way if you don't have the space.
[0:55:34] Caller: That's absolutely true.
[0:55:36] Randall Roth: Okay, Dan Foley.
[0:55:37] Dan Foley: Uh first of all, Nolan, the administrator of 0CCC is an outstanding member of the department of Public Safety, does a great job. About half the inmates he has at 0CCC are pretrial detainees. These are not people convicted of crimes. Half? That's about half. And many of them cannot meet a bail of $1 or $5,000, and that's why they're serving time. One of the proposals the Department of Public Safety made to the legislature was to have a a daily reporting center at 0CCC where these pretrial detainees are undergoing uh drug testing, possibly uh other types of controls, electric monitoring, uh being able to allow to work, report into 0CCC daily, but not sleep there. Uh we haven't been successful in getting that through the legislature.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay, Nolan, thank you very much for your call. We've got two people who've been waiting very, very patiently on the line, and I want to give them at least a brief opportunity to make a comment or ask a question. Then we're going to ask all of our guests to kind of sum up their thoughts. Let's first go to Sarah in Honolulu. Good morning, Sarah.
[0:57:00] Caller: Good morning. I'd like to address this comment particularly to Randy, but also to those um who did not pick up on it. When you were talking about the humiliation alternative, with which I agree in principle, I am appalled that you you use the example of wife beating. This is a violent crime, and a person a person who commits it is a danger to the community.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay, I appreciate your comment. Um let's go to John in Makiki. John, you're on the air.
[0:57:00] Caller: Good morning, sir. I must say from the comments I have heard that something perhaps should be reconsidered. All these uh so-called criminals, well, at once they were children. And the strange part, if you look at it, I cannot believe that 49 to 51 percent of the households on welfare or whatever they call it, are homes where there's no dads. Now, these women use children for profit, baby factories, and these children grow up to be what you're describing today. And when are we going to wake up and start looking at women? There's a national organization of women. There's no national organization of men. Something is still wrong in this society and I truly hope people like you get a picture clearer than what you have been saying.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay. John, I really appreciate your comment and I I'm sorry to to rush you, we we do have to move on. We're down to the last uh seven or eight minutes. Uh let's go to Dan Kahana, a law professor at the University of Chicago who has done a lot of writing in the area, especially as it relates to alternatives to incarceration. Dan, we haven't heard from you for a long time. Anything you've been listening to that you'd like to comment on or anything that needs to be added to our conversation?
[0:57:00] Dan Kahan: Well, Randy, you haven't heard from me in part just because I've been listening with such rapt attention. It's really an eye-opener and an education especially to hear from Judge Mossman um the the kinds of uh reactions he's seeing from the offenders in his uh courtroom who he's giving this option of the shaming penalties, too, the the kinds of information he's collecting and and will present to us at some point about uh what the the experience is with these offenders once they perceive this sentence. This is really the kind of information um we need to have. Um obviously, all the comments have brought out um that this is a very complicated issue. Um the prisoners are overflowing, um there are some people who you just have to incarcerate, um yet we're running out of the resources even to deal with those people. Um we've got to try to innovate, we've got to see uh what else can work. Um and and uh the the jury, as it were, is still out on whether the shaming penalties that the judge is trying uh will work. Um but we won't know until uh people try, and I think that the judge is really doing us a great service, and it's wonderful to have uh people from the community and and who represent different perspectives in it, um discussing this issue, and and when we get the results we can discuss it again.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Anything else you'd like to add before we uh say goodbye?
[0:57:00] Dan Kahan: That's pretty much all I have to say, but I guess thank you very much for having me.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Thank you. Uh let's go next to Matt Matsunaga, who is the co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee here in Hawaii. Matt, you've been listening to the whole show, any thoughts to share?
[0:57:00] Caller: Well, first of all, Randy, let me uh, if I could uh say to Judge Mossman um uh advise him that if he's going to sentence anyone to hold signs on the road, make sure it's not in September or November of even numbered years or people might think they're running for something off it. But, on a more serious note, um, I I think the the theme that I keep hearing is that we really and that I agree with is we really need to be creative in looking at cost-effective ways to keep the public safe. Um, bricks and mortar are very expensive, no question. And um, we've got to look at alternatives to uh, one, keeping the public safe from people who are a threat to society. And number two, is seeing uh, giving the prisoner some um, some way to rehabilitate or to get back into uh mainstream society, and once again, contribute to society.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Um Matt, I really appreciate you being available to us today and and sharing your thoughts on all of this.
[0:57:00] Caller: Thank you very much, Randy.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh let's go now to Judge Boyd Mossman on Maui. Boyd, are you there?
[0:57:00] Caller: Yes, I am here.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Any uh farting thoughts?
[0:57:00] Caller: Well yeah, I just want to tell Senator Matsunaga, it was a political science that gave me the idea in the first place, and we we do try to distinguish them, we believe me. Uh but as regards this overcrowding situation, you know, I I realize there's no no easy fixes, but uh I have always used alternatives, uh I think alternatives have been used, are being used, and will continue to be used uh for incarceration. Uh but I I still agree uh with with Peter that uh we, so long as this population continues to grow, we're going to have that percentage of our our our society, that segment that uh are criminals. And and as the population grows, our our prison space is going to have to to grow to some degree and uh I think there's got to be a balance, uh and and it it's being utilized right now and uh we just need to uh balance it more, as Senator Matsunaga has commented, uh towards uh addressing additional prison space and and that's about all I have to say.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Could could I just ask one last question. What kind of reaction have you gotten from your fellow judges?
[0:57:00] Caller: Uh well, you know, um, the Third Circuit uh the Big Island uh is is interested and I'm going to be uh discussing a little bit with them uh this this whole program. The judges here in Maui, one other judge has has has attempted it. It was a disaster actually, uh because uh I, you know, we didn't take the time to train him. I think that if judges are properly trained in this area, uh they will uh they will appreciate the op this this option that they have.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay, Judge Mossman, thank you very much. We go to Peter Carlyle. Parting thoughts?
[0:57:00] Peter B. Carlisle: Well, I guess what I'd like to do is ask Dan a couple of questions. I mean, it seems to me that uh this type of creativity is a is a is something that we need to take a look at. And obviously, uh we've learned uh from uh the other Dan that we don't really have the numbers yet to find out whether it's working or not and we're hopefully getting those from projects like Judge Mossman has put together. But it's long been sort of my impression that if we really wanted to wipe out prostitution we could probably do it overnight simply by putting a placard around the neck of the Johns marching them up and down Kalakaua Avenue saying, I am a whore monger on that uh placard and that would be pretty much the end of uh the demand side of prostitution, which we've never really adequately addressed in my mind. And I want to know if we did something like that, is that something that the ACLU would go jumping up and down and saying we're being cruel and unusual and flag the constitution in our face and say, you can't do that. Darn, I wish I'd asked that question. Dan Foley.
[0:57:00] Dan Foley: Well, I think Judge Mossman um has the right approach in terms of what he's doing. He gives the choice uh to the defendant. Do you want to serve time in jail or do you want to hold the sign? As long as you give that defendant a choice, there is no issue of whether it's cruel and unusual punishment. Um if there is no choice, uh it may very well be justified. It's not for me or the ACLU uh to decide, it's for a court.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, that's one hurdle you don't have to worry about. They get another question? Uh no, that was basically it. I like the idea of these types of of of of of uh alternative approaches, but again, I think we've all reached on what the real problem is, is that there are a lot of people out there who are beyond these type of offenses. The violent offenders, the multiple repeat property offenders, those type of people haven't been deterred in the past, and frankly we're at the point where we simply have to incapacitate them.
[0:57:00] Randall Roth: And as I understand your piece in this morning's paper, you're open to the possibility that that alternatives to incarceration work, but in the meantime, you're convinced putting somebody in prison works. It it there is absolutely no doubt it's effective. Dan Foley, uh, you know, and Dan, I I just have to say um, you know, I and and a lot of people don't agree with every position that you take, but I certainly feel that our community is enriched by having somebody there defending the constitution and whether you win the case or lose the case, um, I I think our community is much much better for having uh you as a part of it. Any final thoughts?
[0:57:00] Dan Foley: Uh, surprising thought, I agree with Peter's last remark. Uh, I'm shocked.
[0:57:00] Peter B. Carlisle: Unfortunately, we're at that situation where we do need more prison space. As I mentioned in my article this morning, we had an opportunity in 1991 if we'd followed some of the recommendations of the American Corrections Association, not to be expanding prison space for women. But it's not just having alternatives. It's developing alternative and diversion programs, not just throwing up a community based bed and sticking someone there prematurely. So these are not easy things to create. Unfortunately, we haven't done it. So for the time being, we are going to have to have some more prison space.
[0:57:31] Randall Roth: Okay. And I guess the bottom line is, our prisons are our bursting at the seams. Something has to be done. New prisons are terribly, terribly expensive. We're all worried about crime and all of this is related, and I guess if the citizens are aware of what's going on, vigilant, asking good questions of their representatives, and talking to one another about this, presumably we'll all get to a better result than what we otherwise would, Dan Foley?
[0:57:57] Peter B. Carlisle: Yeah, maybe. And and and and and I really think that we have a lot of good people in the system. Peter Judge Mossman, we have good judges, not bad judges and they get unfairly criticized. We all have to come together and try to resolve this together.
[0:58:09] Randall Roth: Okay, I want to thank our guests this morning, Peter Carlyle, the prosecutor in Honolulu County, Dan Foley, civil rights attorney here on Oahu, Dan Kahan, a professor from the University of Chicago Law School, Boyd Mossman, a Circuit Court judge on Maui, and Matt Matsunaga, the co-chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee here in Hawaii. Our producer is Suzie Roth, our director of operations, Jeff Icardi. Next week, we've got a real good important topic for you, it's the ceded land controversy.
[0:58:36] Randall Roth: What are we going to do with the 1.2 million acres of land here in Hawaii that are up in the air in terms of just who they belong to and the revenue from a lot of that land. We've got representative Ed Case on one side of that issue and Clayton Hee, who is chairman of the board of trustees of OHA on the other side. It's really going to be a good one. Watch KHON Channel 2 News tonight at 6 and 10. Glenn Wakai and Ted the cameraman have been with us this morning and we appreciate that. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

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