Affirmative Action
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-05-14
Guests: Jackie Young (State Director on Affirmative Action); Jared Jossem (labor lawyer)
Duration: 1:08:58

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: The house answers every call, tells the caller what to expect and then puts the line on hold. The show can be heard over the phone while you're on hold, so callers don't miss anything. I take calls and the order received, and all I ask is that things stay friendly and on point. Today's topic is affirmative action. It's a subject that's timely, controversial and widely misunderstood. With me in the studio to discuss it are Jackie Young and Jared Jossem. Jackie holds a PhD in communications and Women's Studies from the Union Institute for Advanced Studies, served in the State House of Representatives from 1990 to 1994, and currently is director of the State Office of Affirmative Action.
[0:00:45] Randall Roth: Jared is a partner in the law firm of Torkelson, Cats, Jossem, Fonseca, Jaffe, Moore and Heatherington, specializing in labor law, and for 3 years headed up the Republican Party here in Hawaii. Uh, good morning, Jackie.
[0:00:59] Jackie Young: Good morning.
[0:01:00] Randall Roth: And Jared, good morning.
[0:01:01] Jared Jossem: Good morning, Randy.
[0:01:02] Randall Roth: Jared, I know that, uh, your law practice has you dealing with affirmative action a lot. I'm told you're the author of over 150 affirmative action plans. Can you real briefly tell us what affirmative action is and what what's the big deal? Why the controversy?
[0:01:18] Jared Jossem: Affirmative action is a uh, usually a a term applied to government programs which, uh, in the employment setting require uh employers to count the representation of minorities and females in their workforce, and to compare the levels of representation of those minorities and women to the number that one would expect to find in the workforce in the absence of discrimination.
[0:01:46] Randall Roth: So that's kind of a quota of sorts.
[0:01:48] Jared Jossem: Of sorts, and then if there's a shortfall that is statistically significant, uh the employer is expected to do something extra, affirmative action to increase uh the numbers of minorities and women in significant job groupings.
[0:02:05] Randall Roth: Okay. Similar concept has been applied, uh in the uh areas of government licensing, for example, or in government contracting where they've set up set aside programs for minority and women-owned businesses.
[0:02:20] Jared Jossem: But the concept is basically uh to do something extra to make up for past discrimination.
[0:02:26] Randall Roth: Okay, and what's the what's the controversy? Why Why are people attacking that? There's there's discussion now of actually ending affirmative action.
[0:02:34] Jared Jossem: Well, the uh, the problem uh that has evolved since this concept became government policy some 40 years ago is that there's a perception, uh particularly among white males in the country, that they and their children are being deprived of their fair opportunity to compete for a limited number of good-paying jobs on the basis of their race, or on the basis of their gender.
[0:03:01] Jared Jossem: And uh, there's a feeling that just because uh, my kid who's graduating from uh a college that I saved a lot of money to to to pay for, uh is is white, uh why should they lose out in a job uh contest with the child of a wealthier, uh more privileged uh African-American.
[0:03:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Jackie, do you agree with Jared's definition of affirmative action and his description of of why it's so controversial right now?
[0:03:34] Jackie Young: Well, uh technically, yes, I think he addresses the issue very well.
[0:03:38] Randall Roth: Okay. What would you add to uh this this brief introduction as we're trying to get listeners to where they they can appreciate why this is a timely, controversial and important topic? What's at the core of of affirmative action that we need to put on the table right away in this conversation?
[0:03:54] Jackie Young: Well, I think the concept of reverse discrimination, you know, the feeling that um white males in in particular are being discriminated against, it's really reversing an imbalance that has been in place for hundreds of years in this country.
[0:04:08] Randall Roth: So it it it is discrimination, but the idea is there's been discrimination in the past, and so we need discrimination now in in favor of women or in favor of of different minority groups to more or less even things up?
[0:04:22] Jackie Young: Well, Randy, when you talk about discrimination, in general, discrimination just says you pick a certain topic or a per certain certain subject or or group of people, but it doesn't mean you negatively affect that person when you pick it. When we've had an imbalance and you seek to write that imbalance, it doesn't mean you're creating a negative impact on, for instance, white males. It says you're opening the door to a a more diverse group of people.
[0:04:49] Randall Roth: But if if we've only got so many seats in the law school, if we've only got so many contracts to let, if we've only got so many positions in terms of of of hiring and if we're giving some sort of of advantage to a group of people, aren't others who aren't in that group necessarily disadvantaged?
[0:05:11] Jackie Young: Well, it's interesting you bring up the law school. Here at the University of Hawaii, I think for the first time on the last few years, we have more women in the law school than than men, uh as students. I think that would have happened a long time ago had we not had the barriers in there, the institutional sexism that was there that kept women out.
[0:05:30] Jackie Young: So, you know, before, you you just had this this this barrier that said males need apply and females need not apply. You had a very small number, you know, but now that the doors are opened, you've got a lot more women and who knows, if you just did it based on merit, you might have maybe three fourths of the law school might be women.
[0:05:48] Randall Roth: Jared, what do you think?
[0:05:50] Jared Jossem: Well, uh I I think that there has been societal discrimination and institutional discrimination. Uh the question is whether or not the current governmental approach to affirmative action is uh, in the 1990s, the appropriate way uh to uh develop uh social and economic policy in this country. I think that the rules against discrimination are adequate to measure the impact on individual applicants as members of sex or minority groups and to provide them with a remedy if they're the victim of discrimination.
[0:06:26] Jared Jossem: But and and so if you have reached um a level of good representation in the law school for women, for example, do you need to have a numerical target for uh for applicants any longer, or can you just simply say, we're discontinuing that and instead we're going to look at um each person who applies for admission to the law school on the basis of what they bring overall.
[0:06:54] Jared Jossem: Their ethnic background and cultural diversity might be a legitimate factor in in that uh process, but it won't be the determining factor. You're not going to set aside necessarily uh seven seats in the law school or in the medical school class for people whose last name would suggest that they might be of Hispanic origin. Uh you're going to look at their academic record, you're going to look at their accomplishments in life generally and make your selections on a merit basis.
[0:07:22] Randall Roth: Jackie, isn't isn't that a a a a concern that a lot of people who don't like affirmative action say that that ultimately what you're talking about are are quotas, ultimately you end up with a certain number of of slots, whether you're talking about government contracts or or, uh, hiring decisions, or what have you, um, that that you end up hiring based on on gender, based upon race or what have you. Um, is that a necessary part of affirmative action, the so-called set aside approach?
[0:07:52] Jackie Young: Well, this set aside I think and and Jared can help me here comes out of federal contracts and, uh, not so much uh state government policy. But, uh, when you talk about, uh, what he's saying, when you set aside us or or have a certain number of people, uh quotas, so to speak, what happens now is you see that when you allow people in, like Asians in in University of California, at UCLA or or Berkeley, and then you you base it on merit, what you have now is a large number of Asians.
[0:08:26] Jackie Young: And now that is a problem that people see in California, in the California school system, that they went beyond the so-called numerical quota and now they're saying, well we maybe we got to look at other things in order to bring balance. And I think what is not often said is that balance is what we're looking at because when you see the imbalance of any kind, then we try to correct it through affirmative action.
[0:08:50] Jared Jossem: But there's an assumption in that, uh, you know, balance for what purpose? I mean, I believe that all people, whether regardless of what ethnic group we happen to be in, are individuals with different makeups. So we see in the in the OJ Simpson case, people talking about DNA, and it's an individual fingerprint. It's not something that you can just say, well, because you're an Asian, you're going to be good at math, and you know, because you're Jewish, you're going to be good at business.
[0:09:17] Randall Roth: Jackie, what what do you say about that? Because I know a lot of people are concerned that somehow or another, each individual gets lumped in with a group and it it it almost I think preserves stereotypes. What would your response to that be?
[0:09:31] Jackie Young: Speaking about individual differences?
[0:09:32] Randall Roth: Well, the idea that that somebody is no longer an individual, but a white male or or a woman of color or somehow gets categorized and treated in a a a special way because of the category that that individual happens to fall into.
[0:09:47] Jackie Young: Well, I think in the beginning when you don't have a balance, when you when you have a token people in there and for cosmetic purposes, you have people uh of different backgrounds, you may see them only in that way. I know what myself when I go to the mainland, there aren't many Asians there and people see me as a woman of color, which I'm not called here and um in the beginning I'm just seen that way, but after a while as I get involved in whatever activity I'm in, they begin to see me as an individual.
[0:10:16] Jackie Young: And I think that's the long-term success of affirmative action is you give people a chance to let their individuality flower.
[0:10:25] Randall Roth: Okay. In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth and our topic today is affirmative action. My guests in the studio are Jackie Young, the Director of the Governor's Office of Affirmative Action, and Jared Jossem, an attorney specializing in labor law and former head of the State Republican Party. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call 955-8821. You may have noticed this that in this morning's Advertiser focus section, we have a couple of articles by one by Jared Jossem and the other by Jackie Young describing briefly their positions on affirmative action.
[0:11:03] Randall Roth: Here's your opportunity to ask them some questions or to make a comment based upon what they said in the paper or what you're hearing right now. The number again is 955-8821 and neighbor Islanders are invited to call collect. Jackie, before I made that brief reminder, you said something about uh long-term goals and that sort of thing. Um, is affirmative action by design supposed to be temporary and and if so, when do we know when it's time to to stop?
[0:11:34] Jackie Young: Well, I think in in Hawaii, we might reach our goal faster than in some other places because um, in Hawaii, the concept of diversity, the concept or the value of inclusion is part of our makeup here. We we've been blessed with having a society that uh is already diverse and and multicultural. And people, as as Jared and I have discussed in the past, there's a great deal of of uh interracial marriage here has been in in effect for a long time, and there's a mixture socially and professionally of a diverse group of people. So I think Hawaii might have the opportunity to reach any kind of affirmative action goal faster.
[0:12:14] Jackie Young: It may be 10 years, you know, but but it's not it's not in the immediate future, it's not in the next 2 or 3 years, but it might be another 10 years before we we see it all come together. Especially for women. Especially for women.
[0:12:28] Jared Jossem: Well, uh theoretically, uh I think Jackie uh may have a point that it's temporary. It should be under the US Supreme Court's uh Weber case, that affirmative action is only supposed to be practiced for as long as it's necessary to remedy past discrimination. But what's interesting is is that no sooner do you start approaching um success as the politicians and government have defined it, uh then you find new groups stepping forward claiming that they are entitled to affirmative action.
[0:13:00] Jared Jossem: So, we started out looking at affirmative action essentially as an outgrowth of the Civil Rights Movement for African-Americans, then other ethnic minorities and women were included in the um, during the Nixon administration with revised order number four, 1971. Now there are proposed uh changes to the program where, for example, multicultural will become a new category so that the children of uh of um ethnically mixed marriages will have a separate column on the chart. And I've participated in meetings in Hawaii since 1978 where Tongans, Samoans, um Hawaiians, who certainly are lost in the shuffle in terms of federal policy, although I think the state is is a lot more sensitive to Hawaiian interests.
[0:13:48] Jared Jossem: Um, where individual ethnic groups are are starting to say, where's our spot on the chart?
[0:13:53] Randall Roth: What what about is it just race and gender or would would um a gays, for example, be a category that would somehow be affected by affirmative action?
[0:14:04] Jared Jossem: Well, the the there were um gay and lesbian groups who proposed in in Washington uh during the last year's hearings on proposed regulatory change that they also be accorded affirmative action, and in some state schemes, I think uh California and Oregon, there's been substantial pressure to uh include uh um sexual preference as uh as another category for affirmative action.
[0:14:27] Jared Jossem: My goodness, we even have in Hawaii a law that prohibits discrimination based on arrest and court records and convictions. So, presumably um murderers and rapists will someday be entitled to uh affirmative action on the grounds which can be articulated by politicians that they need rehabilitation and to be mainlined and that's the way we're going to solve the crime problem. So there's no end to to where this notion might lead us um unless we decide, as I'm suggesting, that we shift the focus onto giving people a boost on the basis of their economic plight and and their social status.
[0:15:04] Randall Roth: I want to come back to that suggestion, but Jackie, I'm sure you've got a reaction to what Jared was just saying.
[0:15:09] Jackie Young: Well, I don't think you can lump in uh those other things that you talked about about quota arrest records with uh racial, ethnic, and gender uh numerical underrepresentation. I think what we're saying in Hawaii, because we're a pretty progressive state, is that you don't use it as a form of discrimination. I think a case in point is our former board member who recently died, Chuck Norwood. Norwood, yes. You know, had we had not had that in place, I think people might have been questioning more about his his uh arrest record and the fact that he served in time in jail.
[0:15:45] Jackie Young: But I think the the tolerance in Hawaii is such that, you know, we saw that he was rehabilitated, and that shouldn't stop him from going to school and getting the what four master's degrees that he got after he got out of jail, became a member of the school board and, you know, that I think we're ahead of that in that sense in Hawaii. We're small community and and we value harmony.
[0:16:06] Randall Roth: Mhm. You know, something that that you were saying earlier, and I'm I'm going to come back to Jared's suggestion in a moment, but if we had uh a group of people moved to Hawaii from the mainland or some place else and let's say it's a group that isn't necessarily underrepresented where they're coming from, but they're underrepresented here. Um, would they immediately fall into an affirmative action category and and would these recent residents have a leg up on long-time residents?
[0:16:38] Jackie Young: Well, I don't know if it's a leg up but but there's an example that's uh right now, um Hispanics in state government, we don't count Hispanics, we count Puerto Ricans, but we don't count Hispanics and that was a decision that was made when we when affirmative action began like 20 years ago and they decided what groups they were going to count. And because Hispanics were not the the group term that it is now, Puerto Rican was counted. But now we have 79,000 Hispanics in Hawaii, and we haven't counted them in our numerical tables and certainly we it's a growing number. It's 7% of of the population and it's growing.
[0:17:16] Jackie Young: We need to take a look at, you know, are they in state government anyway, you know, how many do we have? Are we are we including them?
[0:17:24] Jared Jossem: And this is Jared and, uh, Randy, I just wanted to I've got here the affirmative action plan that is used by the state of Hawaii Department of Labor and Industrial Relations for its own employees. This is not the one that that is enforced on on private sector employers. And I know there that they count, uh, the, uh, ethnicity of Koreans, Japanese, Chinese and Filipinos, but there's not even a column for blacks in this, uh, in their database or Hispanics.
[0:17:54] Jackie Young: Why, why would that be, Jackie? Well, as I said, uh, about 20 years ago, from my understanding is I wasn't in this field then, uh, there was a determination made how they were going to collect data, and that's what they decided. So, you know, I've been in this position for four months, I think we need to look at those categories and see whether that's applicable today, and certainly it's not if we don't include Hispanics, and we need to do something about that and change our, you know, collection.
[0:18:18] Jared Jossem: To me, to me, it just looks like the state government's affirmative action efforts in terms of their data gathering, at least historically, have been completely limited to measuring the utilization of Asians, and the various subgroupings of Asians.
[0:18:32] Jackie Young: Well, Chinese and Korean are lumped together, though.
[0:18:35] Jared Jossem: Uh no, they have a separate, uh they have a separate category in the labor department, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Filipino, and Hawaiian-part Hawaiian. So if you are Tongan, for example, you know, you don't count in our own State Department of Labor's affirmative action program. I think this is silly.
[0:18:52] Jackie Young: But I think you would agree, Jared, that, uh, the Tongan-Samoan group has grown over the last 20 years, too. I mean, when you think back in 19 what is this 95 in 1975 there wasn't the general awareness of the Tongan and Samoan community that there is today.
[0:19:07] Randall Roth: Oh, I think that's very true.
[0:19:08] Jackie Young: And so I think that has changed and this is why affirmative action is a dynamic program and one that we hope is temporary because our eventual goal is simply equal employment opportunities.
[0:19:20] Randall Roth: Well, should we have a special affirmative action program for citizens of Nauru for example? I mean where does it end? How about Serbo-Croatians and victims of the war in Bosnia?
[0:19:30] Jackie Young: Well, actually, what's interesting is there is some statistics that said that there were 112 different languages that are spoken primarily, primarily spoken in the home in Hawaii, 112 different languages. You know, so you do have these discrete groups that are that are here in Hawaii but uh.
[0:19:47] Randall Roth: And let's not leave out the the Arab Americans who are probably one of the most stigmatized groups. Everyone assumed when the tragedy occurred in Oklahoma that it was some some some Middle Easterner who was responsible, shouldn't they be included in the affirmative action?
[0:20:00] Jackie Young: But you know you could get to the point of right, you know as as you're implying, you know silliness in that sense. But I think if you open the door to the major groups that have been shut out, once you do that, I think then then you have more of a climate that's open to begin with.
[0:20:15] Randall Roth: Okay, you're listening to Jackie Young, the director of the governor's office of affirmative action and Jared Jossom, an attorney specializing in in labor law, or as as a Democrat friend of mine says anti-labor law, which I think that means you you normally represent management whenever management and and unions are in negotiation.
[0:20:34] Jared Jossem: Well, you know uh Henry Ford and Walter Reuther agreed on one thing and that was that the the wage earners had to be making enough money to buy the cars. So I I don't like the appellation anti-labor anymore than someone would consider a union leader anti-management, okay. We'll call you a labor lawyer then.
[0:20:53] Randall Roth: We have a caller from Waikiki, Zuma. Good morning, Zuma.
[0:20:56] Caller: Good morning. Hello. Yeah, I have a quick a couple of questions. First, I'd like to say I really appreciate Jared's comments. I I think affirmative action is silly. I really don't think it has a place in Hawaii because there are so many different ethnicities. I I I I just wonder why does it even exist because there are so many different groups. What's your first question? Oh, my first question is, um, when you made a comment earlier about the gays having a chapter under affirmative action, um, why does that even figure into that? Because, I mean, that is sexual preference. How does sexual preference fit into.
[0:21:30] Randall Roth: Let's ask Jackie Young to answer that.
[0:21:32] Jackie Young: No, we don't count that. No. It would be to count whether you Randy, you know, what is your sexual preference. I mean that's not something we ask. But if you but if you determine Jackie that that gays as a group have been discriminated discriminated against in the past and if you were to determine and and I realize that you haven't done this, but if you were to determine that they're underrepresented in uh certain jobs in government contracts etc, is there any reason why affirmative action wouldn't uh embrace that group that's been subject to discrimination?
[0:22:05] Jackie Young: Let me uh go back again to what I said uh before this caller called in, once you open the door to groups that have been underrepresented in the large groups that we know it, then you you introduce the concept of diversity and then you have much more tolerance in in the community to allow people of all different backgrounds and individual differences to to enter the workforce.
[0:22:28] Jared Jossem: I think Jackie's right in the sense that affirmative action by definition looks at groups rather than at individuals and so if you're the member of a group, whether you define that group in terms of sexual preference, in terms of alphabet, or in terms of the numbers on your social security card, whatever by by by having a group you can identify with, you conceivably can develop a or get a a leg up through government intervention, government policy. And and let's face it, affirmative action is an outgrowth of successful political action by minority groups and female groups who have gotten a preference imposed on private sector employers by the federal government. That's why we have these programs because of political action.
[0:23:12] Randall Roth: Do you agree with that, Jackie?
[0:23:15] Jackie Young: Well, political action, but that comes out of social injustice and economic injustice from from years of of people uh not having opportunities to enter the workforce in a fair way. Affirmative action is really a concept based on fairness.
[0:23:30] Randall Roth: Well it is, but let me ask you this. Let's take Jesse Jackson as an example. He probably makes, I don't know, $200,000, $300,000 a year from his various speaking fees and so forth. Should one of his children receive preference in admission to the University of Michigan Medical School over the child of a white production worker who who's unemployed six months a year working for General Motors in Dearborn, Michigan?
[0:23:54] Jackie Young: I don't know. I guess it would depend on the criteria that is used to enter. Now, if they don't have many blacks, Jesse Jackson's child might be in competition with other blacks or other Asians or other people, but people still look at merit. You still want success whether it's in college or in the employment field and you still have to have a certain level of qualifications to enter. People look at discrete numbers and it's not discrete numbers, it's it's a range. I have to tell you Jared, I I went to Punahou School growing up here, and when I went there, there was a cap on Asians in Punahou school when I went and there was a same number that went all the way through, until there came the 70s, and then they decided to open the doors a little more on qualifications and merit and.
[0:24:42] Randall Roth: Is that offensive to you that there was a cap on on Asians?
[0:24:45] Jackie Young: That was the way it was then because there was also, um, you couldn't buy a home in Kahala. People know that here, you know, you couldn't join certain clubs. And Hawaii was at that same time, you know, prior to all the civil rights laws and it was part of the way things were at that time, and that's why we have some of the laws that we have now, because because there was this, but Punahou can do what they want to do, right? It's a private school, they don't accept federal money.
[0:25:09] Randall Roth: Well, I'll tell you what, let's let's have Zuma ask his his second question. Uh Zuma.
[0:25:14] Caller: Okay. Well, um also what I want to know was now, does affirmative action still have a relevance in in society that it's still it's so diverse and there are so many different groups. I mean, I'm curious to know what the future of it is as far as Hawaii is concerned.
[0:25:30] Jackie Young: You know, I I've said several times before, Hawaii is an exception, but we're also a view of the future. An example is that in state government here, unlike state governments throughout the United States, what is considered a minority in the United States, uh Asians, Asian Pacific Islanders are really the majority in state government here, and as a result, we've had to take a hard look through numerical tables as to our population in state government and seen that we don't have many white people, we don't have many Hawaiians, we don't have many Filipinos. So there has been more of an effort to say, when you're hiring, uh look, let's not hire people that look like us, which is Asians, but let's hire people that haven't been had that opportunity. And we might, and and that has happened in Hawaii.
[0:26:15] Randall Roth: But isn't that again kind of putting a cap on Asians for different reason, but isn't that a cap again?
[0:26:20] Jackie Young: It's not. It's saying hey, maybe maybe we've shown a preference too much towards people who look uh this way. Maybe we ought to open the door to people who are qualified. But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We're talking about qualifications now, we're not talking about unqualified people. But let's take a look. Let's take a look. These are guidelines. Let's take a look. Maybe we better step back and say, you know, uh we somehow maybe have shown unequal treatment, we don't know, so let's take a hard look at this and let's say let's open the doors a little wider so that more people can come in. And in Hawaii as a result, as I mentioned in the article over the 10 year period, uh white people in the white group have almost doubled and the Filipinos and the Hawaiians and Part Hawaiians, we've taken a look at this. This is different from the other 49 states.
[0:27:11] Randall Roth: Okay, Jared, I'm sure you've got something to say.
[0:27:13] Jared Jossem: Well, if you if you start with uh with the 5% of your workforce being white, and you end up with 10% of your workforce being white, in a place where the population is 35% white, I don't know that you've accomplished anything other than perhaps admitting that for uh 30 years you've been discriminating. I think the important thing is to look at the next generation of applicants. And and instead of looking at these gross numbers and these gross percentages, you have to look at the opportunities that exist for individuals. The opportunities that exist for this applicant in this job and that applicant in that job, and you have to convince the public that you're making fair selections based on merit. And uh and merit implies that you're going to help people get qualifications for these positions through an education system for example, that gives people useful skills regardless of their uh of their color or their uh gender, uh that they can then bring into the workforce. But I I'm really bothered by uh state policy, which is admittedly racist. If if we are hiring people simply to project some good resulting statistics that make good political sense, then I think we're violating our constitutional principles. Well, that's what it sounded like. I didn't say that, Jared. I said that that's what affirmative action is about. You take a look at a pattern of of sexism or racism in your uh workforce and you see that, you know, maybe we ought to look at at people when they apply, uh open it up, go for active recruitment of people in the labor force, uh put in uh advertisements in in different journals and not in just small trade journals. But you need to broaden your your uh labor force pool, so the applicant pool, so that you have a wider variety that apply, and then, you know, open the doors to more people.
[0:29:08] Jared Jossem: I don't I don't buy that for this reason, Jackie. Let's assume that in the 1950s and 1960s, there were very few Caucasian applicants for jobs in the Department of Education or at a particular bank, let's say a bank that that that grew in the Japanese community in Hawaii and only Japanese applied, not because whites weren't welcome there, but because that's just what happened. There was no discrimination against Caucasians who never applied for those jobs that at the time the hiring selections were made that resulted in a very heavy representation of Japanese Americans in our school system. The whites weren't excluded, they simply weren't here and weren't applying in those days. So there's no past discrimination that we need to remedy by discriminating against the children of today's Japanese Americans coming out of the University of Hawaii. Why should those kids, whose parents have sacrificed for them, who've sent them to Elani and Punaho and and St. Louis or wherever, sent them on to college, they come home to Hawaii and they want to get a job, why should those Japanese uh American children be deprived of an of a fair shot simply because of their ethnic background because they have to step to the side while while some uh Hispanic or black or or Caucasian uh child, simply on the basis of race, has to get that state vacancy?
[0:30:38] Jackie Young: You know I never said that, Jared. You don't get a job simply on the basis of race or gender. Uh it it would be, in fact, nice if we had more women in in certain positions, but you know women have historically been shut out a great deal.
[0:33:59] Randall Roth: involved and also special education. But um I've seen where there continues to be a bias in the educational system and we need to to correct that with some uh opening of our eyes as to how we educate children. And until then, you're not going to have a fair shot uh for many groups in the uh employment field.
[0:34:45] Jared Jossem: Well, if you don't make a decision based on race, but you're shooting for a goal of of uh parity and statistical representation, could you explain to me how you get from from underutilization of a particular ethnic group to what you uh defined as success? How do you get there if you don't take race into account?
[0:35:06] Jackie Young: You have basic qualifications for jobs. Every job has has uh minimum qualifications. And so you look for applicants with minimum qualifications. And and then you look at the applicant pool.
[0:35:18] Randall Roth: Jackie, so I understand, does that mean that you're not necessarily going for the the the most qualified, you're just saying people need to be minimally qualified and then once they all get to that level, you go for people who are from underrepresented groups? Is that how it works?
[0:35:34] Jackie Young: Well, there is a range of qualifications. You're not looking at only one thing. You don't only look at a test, you look at experience, you look at skills, you look at, you know, the kinds of background that they have. So there is a range. When I say minimal, that is a term that is used, you know, minimal qualification.
[0:36:11] Randall Roth: You see Randy, when when I'm on the operating table, and somebody who graduated from medical school is is is got the scalpel in in my abdomen, okay? I really don't care whether it's a woman or a man or what color they are. I just want to make sure they're the best surgeon available. And and I don't know why our medical schools can't select people based on on some predictive device that takes that into account. How do you know how a surgeon is until they get into the operating room and and hold the scalpel? You can only look at their background and you can only see that they had a certain amount of education, they had a certain amount of years of internship, that they uh had a certain amount of experience in operating on people and and as long as people meet those criteria you bring them in, but when it comes to holding the scalpel, you don't know how they're going to be until you actually give them a give them that opportunity.
[0:37:04] Randall Roth: Okay. I I I. Zuma, you you unleashed a wonderful conversation here and I appreciate. We need to get to another caller. Okay. Well thank you very much and happy birthday. Thank you.
[0:37:07] Caller: Thank you.
[0:37:12] Randall Roth: How did you know that? Okay.
[0:37:14] Caller: Um, a little birdie told me.
[0:37:16] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, listeners, this is the price of paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, the host. Our guests today are Jackie Young, the director of the governor's office of affirmative action, and Jared Jossen. He's an attorney here in Hawaii specializing in labor law, and he's the former head of the State Republican party. To ask a question or make a brief comment, just call 955-8821. And again, a reminder, if you haven't seen this morning's advertiser, take a look at the focus section, you'll see a couple of excellent articles on affirmative action written by our two guests today. The number again, 955-8821. Oh, we have a caller from Manoah. Good morning, Joanne.
[0:37:34] Caller: Good morning and happy birthday, Randy.
[0:37:38] Randall Roth: Thank you.
[0:37:39] Caller: Um, uh yeah. Um, uh you know it and and so your your guests will know it. I'm also the assistant dean at the law school and one of my responsibilities is to oversee the admissions process. And um I also belong to a national committee that is interested in minority affairs for um all law schools. across the country. Uh I I struggle with this every day and and I have some some questions that I think at a national level we're struggling. I my questions are basically two-fold. Um one is, I'm not sure how class if if if if I'm hearing Mr. Jassim correctly, that perhaps class should be a substitution for race.
[0:38:23] Jared Jossem: I'm I'm not sure how that will necessarily bring us the diversity that presumably we all value.
[0:38:32] Randall Roth: Joanne, stay on the line because I definitely want to come back to you. But earlier Jared made that suggestion and then I kind of shifted the conversation away from it. Jared, very briefly tell us what you meant by that and whether Joanne's characterization is is accurate that basing it on income is somehow basing it on on class.
[0:38:51] Jared Jossem: Well, as my article in today's advertiser on page B3 uh indicates, I've uh I think signed on to that group of people who work in this area who are suggesting that uh affirmative action programs be modified to uh focus uh their benefits on people on the basis of uh their low income, for example, uh and uh perhaps the promise that they uh that they offer but to do away with the counting based on on race and gender.
[0:39:26] Jared Jossem: And the reason I subscribe to that idea is uh first of all, I think that uh our country and our society has to look at promoting uh diversity in all of its best uh sense. Uh and to get away from a system which has uh resulted, I think, in a lot of uh animosity. Affirmative action is being attacked, is being divisive, uh, as, being counter-productive and as stigmatizing uh the people who are it's supposed to benefit.
[0:40:00] Jared Jossem: Now, to put it in terms of the law school, for example, um, I think if a uh if a minority or or a female or any other person were to receive the benefit of selection based upon the fact that they came from an underprivileged or disadvantaged background, then when they get into that law school or when when they get into the legal profession, no one's going to perceive them as having gotten where they are simply because of their color or gender.
[0:40:27] Jared Jossem: It will be because they've achieved, perhaps super achieved, they've overcome um uh um environmental challenges that uh people born into into better circumstances didn't have to cope with. And I think they'll be better off as a result.
[0:40:44] Caller: Okay. Joanne. Well, I I guess I'm not convinced that we will end up with a picture that looks as diverse as we would hope for under the class system. I'm I'm not convinced that we still would not end up with um a kind of de facto preference for Caucasians, for example, especially Caucasians, even in a class system. Um and and I guess the other the other thing is when do you stop being underprivileged? At what point, you know, because there is a point at which you can stop having a bad background. Um whereas you are always African-American. You are always Native Hawaiian, and it's visible. It's totally different from from class.
[0:41:27] Caller: You can't see how much money I have in my pocket, but you can see that I'm Native Hawaiian in many cases. You can see that I'm an African-American. So societal discrimination, the history of it is not been on class, it's been on race and it's been on gender. So I'm not at all convinced that we're going to move forward using class as a designation, but that's more an argument. I don't know. I had a second question, too. I don't know if you want to respond to that. Hang on, hang on the line. I want to get Jackie's reaction to what you've been saying, and then Jared has something to add.
[0:41:57] Jackie Young: I I do agree with Joanne. I I've seen the articles on on class and income, and I wonder how can you determine that? Um how do you um ask people? Is it a temporary thing? Is it their parent's income? Is it their income? And I you know, I think that's totally um not within the discussion that we're having as far as affirmative action. It's race and gender.
[0:42:21] Randall Roth: Is that a nice way of saying it's dumb?
[0:42:26] Jared Jossem: Well, golly. Uh, I I I guess we throw out the the income and means test for welfare, and I guess we no longer look at need as the basis for providing people with scholarships. Uh you know, it's ridiculous to say that that you can't measure income.
[0:42:42] Jackie Young: Well, people have gotten into college because they can pay full income, too. You know?
[0:42:45] Jared Jossem: No, no. Well, sure. And I think that when you get people because of the old girl or old boy, it's the old boy network. People have bought their way into college. Or people who buy their way in. That's that's you've got to overcome that, when you have legacies uh that give people preference, those are the kinds of things that are going to perpetuate the old patterns. But So we've had a lot of quotas in the past there. Well, you know, I think it's a very aristocratic view to say that uh that all members of a particular minority group are poor.
[0:43:13] Jared Jossem: It's a very uh racist uh stereotype to say that all members of a particular ethnic group need affirmative action to get ahead. I think we can look at people as individuals in our country and make selections and we can still end up with a great deal of diversity. You know, a lot of the private corporations are are voluntarily moving ahead of affirmative action, and they're getting into promoting diversity, and the key element of the success of these programs is respecting uh each individual for their own uh um merit which includes their ethnic background.
[0:43:48] Jackie Young: Well, Jared, you know, I think that's the maturity of affirmative action, you know, that they've seen that the affirmative action programs do uh promote diversity and they have moved beyond it. Yes, I do agree that.
[0:43:59] Randall Roth: We've got a number of callers that are stacking up. Joanne, you had one more question?
[0:44:02] Caller: Um, well I just had a comment just to to clarify to leave the record clear. At at the law school in our admissions process, by the way for years, we have also looked at at hardship of a variety of of kinds, um economic hardship, regardless of race. So we have included that for years as a diversity factor. But we have uh are very conscious of of race and ethnicity. The last question maybe common is, isn't it possible that we're moving way beyond all of this anyway? Um I understand that the fastest growing quote group, both in Hawaii and on the mainland, is the mixed race. Um doesn't that make it almost impossible then to differentiate?
[0:44:44] Jackie Young: Well, that's why I say that in Hawaii, I think we we are one step ahead and I think we will we will see, perhaps, if you want to call a phase-out happen here quicker than we may see on the mainland.
[0:44:56] Jackie Young: In fact, when uh Governor Cayetano appointed me to this position, I wondered whether there was a need for the office, not for the program, but for the governor's office of affirmative action because after 20 years, I would think that it would be integrated into all the state agencies and they would independently be able to move without somebody you know, telling them pounding them on the head and say you have to do this, you have to do that. Of course, today I'm seeing that there's a bully pulpit that is needed also, but I I think there could be a phase-out of the governor's office eventually because it is moving on its own in the state agencies.
[0:45:32] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Joanne.
[0:45:33] Caller: Thank you, and happy Mother's Day to Susie.
[0:45:35] Randall Roth: All right. And uh and to Jackie, right?
[0:45:39] Jared Jossem: And to and to Mary.
[0:45:40] Randall Roth: And to Mary. Yeah, all right. Um you're listening to a conversation about affirmative action. I'm with Jackie Young, the director of the Governor's office of affirmative action, and Jared Jassim, an attorney specializing in labor law, and the former head of the State Republican Party. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 955-8821. We have Bernice from Manoa. Good morning, Bernice.
[0:46:02] Caller: Good morning.
[0:46:04] Randall Roth: What can we do for you today?
[0:46:06] Caller: Well, I'm listening to this debate with a great deal of interest since I moved here uh about a decade ago. And while Hawaii, um is happy, the the the people who live here are happy to cite the diversity and the ethnicity that they bring, they are many times able or often look through a lens and say, oh, you are this or you are that.
[0:46:31] Caller: I am a mixed race person assumed to be an African-American here, and I've had everything from going into a librarian and asking for a publication and being told, well, we don't have that because only 3% of the population is African-American, to um the most mysterious reasons for for not being chosen for a job.
[0:46:54] Caller: And I just am say I'm listening to Mr. Jassim and thinking, it's really kind of a cup, is the cup half empty or half full argument, that one can look at this question and say, well, maybe Hawaii has slipped through the gaps, but I think that as long as in the social, in social intercourse, in job interviews, a person is asked such things as, how long have you been here? Do you have relatives here? And what are you? That it's still something that needs a remediativ touch. And I don't believe that the question of being able to remediate a situation which clearly has evolved into a situation of imbalance is wrong.
[0:47:41] Randall Roth: Okay. Bernice, let's see what Jared has to say about that.
[0:47:43] Jared Jossem: Well, I I would agree with the caller uh in that uh for example, if you are asked in an employment interview uh uh you know, what are your ethnic roots? So that's a in the illegal pre-employment inquiry. You should file a charge with the Civil Rights Commission and the EEOC and I'm not advocating that we repeal our civil rights laws which prohibit discrimination either in employment or in public accommodations. If you're being you know, not treated fairly at the library, there is a remedy for that.
[0:48:14] Randall Roth: But doesn't that question have to be asked so that affirmative action can kick in? I mean, how can you have an affirmative action program that would work if you don't ask applicants uh for a job, for example, what what their race is?
[0:48:27] Jared Jossem: Well, because uh what we do uh what the government recommends one does, uh what a company does when a person applies is you simply eyeball the applicant and you take your best guess Oh boy as to what they are. And then after a person is hired, you may ask them to self-identify for affirmative action purposes. And we get into some very interesting anecdotal things.
[0:48:51] Jared Jossem: I had a case once where a uh a young woman was uh half Japanese, half um African-American. Uh her dad had I think worked at the at the shipyard. Her mother uh um was uh born and raised in Hawaii of Japanese ancestry, and when she was um detected in a government affirmative action audit as not having been given a job offer which the government thought she should have had, the government went to to her and said, you're entitled to some back pay. And she said, I don't want the back pay. I wasn't discriminated against on the basis of my color. I consider myself ethnically more Japanese because I do tea ceremony and I speak Japanese and all these things.
[0:49:33] Jared Jossem: And the reason I wasn't hired was I wasn't willing to commute to the Hawaii Kai office. I wanted to work down in uh in Waianae. So, we have lots of diversity in Hawaii. We have lots of different attitudes, but I think if a person, getting back to the call, if a person feels they've been the victim of discrimination, by all means, assert your rights and and get a remedy for that.
[0:49:58] Caller: May I say one more thing? It has to be very quick, my my producer just gave me a uh a look. Okay. I I want to say this. The one time that I did contact the Commission on Civil Rights, they told me they had a two-year backlog on dealing with cases. It was very deflating. Good morning.
[0:50:17] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Bernice. And and Jackie, I notice you nodded. Yes, you're aware that that that's a problem?
[0:50:21] Jackie Young: Oh yes, they've come to the legislature and asked for more people for several years now.
[0:50:26] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we're going to have to be moving more quickly. Uh the producer is reminding me that I'm I'm going too slowly. Uh John from Makiki, can you ask a question or make a brief comment?
[0:50:36] Caller: All right. Good morning, and happy birthday, Randy. Yes, thanks. Uh Mr. Jassim, I I was listening to your your comments about uh the class system replacing a a race system. And um what I'm wondering is whether or not that doesn't deny the major value of affirmative action, which is the role model. And as a teacher at Roosevelt High School, I see many Polynesian kids who don't want to become professionals because they don't know any professionals. What do you think, Jared?
[0:51:01] Jared Jossem: I'm not sure I understand the the the question. I first of all, the the the notion of class is not my suggestion. Okay. Income is the word you used. Yeah, I'm using the term income uh and I think that uh by uh giving a if we're going to give preferences to people or a leg up to people and select those people on the basis of of income, uh we will bring uh more diverse uh uh group of people into the into higher education, which is really the stepping stone, I think, to a lot of the the higher paid occupations.
[0:51:32] Jared Jossem: Uh there are role models. So maybe the caller could amplify a little bit on what he means as to the lack of of role models uh in in in the business world. If you do it based on income, your your racial diversity will be incidental to um your system. And you may end up with a bunch of poor people who are from a particular background. And so, you know, and the the education system in Hawaii for a long time had a large number of Japanese, and certain generations it was a lower income level Japanese.
[0:52:02] Jared Jossem: But a lot of other people felt that they shouldn't become or didn't think about becoming teachers because they knew no role models. Today, um I know a number of Polynesian students who I tell them, well, think about becoming a lawyer, think about becoming a doctor, and they say, well, I can't do that. I don't know any Native Hawaiian or or Samoan doctors or or or lawyers. And I think one of the values of affirmative action in providing someone or or Hawaiian or whatever nationality that were underrepresented, is that it begins to tell the next generation that you can become one of these as well.
[0:52:33] Randall Roth: John, let let me get Jackie's thoughts very quickly and and then we have to move on.
[0:52:36] Jackie Young: I agree with you, John. I mean, I think one of the wonderful things about a Native Hawaiian movement now is that we have a group of young uh Native Hawaiian attorneys who have come in through the Richardson Law School and have really um pushed for changes in that particular area. They've been very articulate. Mele-Lani Trask, you know, is certainly one um and they're certainly articulate and they serve as wonderful role models. Role models are very important. And um and in the military in fact, you're you're having a great push in that area and you're beginning to see uh minority um generals, admirals up there that is certainly needed, you know, General Powell, you know, is a case in point.
[0:53:16] Jackie Young: But you do need role models, yes, and we're only now beginning to get them.
[0:53:20] Randall Roth: Okay, quick one, Jared, and then we have to move on.
[0:53:22] Jared Jossem: Well, I would just simply suggest that you contact the Medical Association, for example, and get the Sal Nalawai, who is a doctor, who is Hawaiian, or he passed away, but John Mills is very active at CAM schools. There are a lot of prominent Hawaiian physicians and attorneys, and contact the professional associations. Our public school system ought to do a better job of of finding those role models, bringing them into the classroom and letting them talk to the students, because they are in the community.
[0:53:47] Jackie Young: But we're only just now beginning to count beyond the fingers on our hand. Before it was like one hand, you could only name right now you can't even, you know, name some women in in the highest paid executives. We were talking about that before.
[0:54:00] Randall Roth: Well, what's wrong with Lily Au and the Vydolman? I mean In the listing that came out in the newspaper. Yes, no well when we move beyond the ten fingers, there were so many. Some women are smart enough not to put their income in the newspaper. It doesn't mean they're not making money. Okay. John, thank you very much for your call. Thank you. We have a caller from Maui, Jay. Good morning, Jay.
[0:54:19] Caller: Good morning.
[0:54:20] Randall Roth: What can we do for you, Jay?
[0:54:22] Caller: All right. I uh I don't envy the speakers because this is a simple subject matter, but it's a complicated application because there are so many variables at the different times, and uh as the time goes on, add it on to it. Okay. Now my question is that, being did the do the speaker feel to set up a watertight standard or categories of each individual ethnic group, uh, that is not very dynamic, uh, because uh from my Okay. So how how do we have it evolve? How do we have it?
[0:55:07] Caller: I think it should be more general that is pertinent to the to the premise, because the paradigm itself was starting from civil rights, equal rights, uh equal rights amendments, and then you comes the affirmative actions for implement.
[0:55:24] Randall Roth: Okay. Jay, let me let me pass that to Jared and then Jackie, and then we have to move on. Jared?
[0:55:29] Jared Jossem: Well, I think a greater flexibility would result from the policy I'm suggesting, which would be that you look at not at this person's heredity as much as their circumstances in life and what they have to offer.
[0:55:43] Randall Roth: Okay. Jackie?
[0:55:44] Jackie Young: Well, I think again what we're seeing in Hawaii is that, um, you can't be rigid, that you have these groups but nobody is uh is we're moving away from being pure this or pure that, and I think in Hawaii, we'll will show some leadership in in this direction.
[0:55:59] Randall Roth: So you're you're avoiding the rigidity that that could become a part. I think some people interpret very rigidly, and I don't think it was ever meant to be that rigid. Okay. Thank you, Jay. We have a caller from Molokai, Pat. Good morning, Pat.
[0:56:13] Caller: Uh this is basically just a comment. Um I've worked up at the University of Hawaii for 8 years and um I personally don't think I mean affirmative actions is a is a wonderful idea, but it doesn't exist. And and the reason why is I after having worked on the system for that long, I work with uh people on the campus all the time, go through the directory, 80% of the people who work the state people who work there are of Japanese ancestry. Um and the majority of the faculty being white. So I don't see where this affirmative action kicks in because it's it's so it's so heavily weighted on one side of the other that
[0:57:00] Caller: And if it's by merit, if it's people are hired by merit, I can't see how
[0:57:05] Randall Roth: It looks suspicious, right? Let's let's get Jackie's reaction and then Jared's.
[0:57:09] Jackie Young: Well, Pat Pat, I think from McCallie, University of Hawaii actually is the only state agency that has a full-time affirmative action EEO officer and I think partly because of of that need to look at it very seriously.
[0:57:23] Randall Roth: Okay, Jared.
[0:57:23] Jared Jossem: One of the common errors that the public, with all due respect, makes in this area is painting with too broad a brush. You have to remember that when you look at the applicant pool for a major state university, you're looking at a national pool of of talent as opposed to one which comes purely from this community. So, the statistical representation that one would expect to achieve of PhDs would be the representation among all PhDs, for example, throughout the country rather than the population base of Hawaii.
[0:57:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Pat. Appreciate your call.
[0:57:59] Jackie Young: Still low on women.
[0:58:02] Randall Roth: George from Waimanalo. Good morning, George.
[0:58:04] Caller: Hey, good morning. Uh this is more towards Mr. Jossom. You know, in the newspaper the other day, they had the pictures of the 10 most highly paid people in the state. Now I know that, you know, this is independent, but um they were all, you know, Caucasian people, except one, the president of City Bank. And so that going back to role models and things. I mean, surely, you must admit that some inequality exists.
[0:58:31] Randall Roth: George, let me get a quick reaction from Jared.
[0:58:34] Jackie Young: Wait George, that that was the article I was referring to, the highest-paid executives. Thank you, George for bringing it up.
[0:58:40] Randall Roth: Did they have the trustees of the Bishop estate in there and Lokelani Lindsay? I it was not an accurate article in terms of any, it had no scientific basis.
[0:58:48] Jared Jossem: But you might admit that the the corporate executives that you see, if you're complaining about maybe Japanese in the state, if you look at the Alexander and Baldwin for instance, there's most of the executives are Caucasian, which seems strange to me.
[0:59:04] Randall Roth: Okay, George, you you've made your point very very well. Thank you. And I I've got just a minute or two left, so we're going to go to um Smita, I believe it is, from Honolulu. Smita, you're on the air.
[0:59:14] Caller: Thank you. Um first of all, Randy, Happy Birthday. And, uh, in terms of hiring, I mean earlier on you'd said that if we have only so many positions for minority people, um where do individuals, um with foreign citizenship who have established their merit in this country fit in? Or, um in other words, I mean especially in university settings, if they have if they are equally or more qualified, do they stand equal chance for being hired as the American citizens do?
[0:59:50] Randall Roth: Okay, very very brief response, Jared.
[0:59:52] Jared Jossem: Well, in the eyes of the law, citizenship should not be a barrier, and uh foreign nationals have the same rights under the Civil Rights Act in this country as do American citizens.
[1:00:03] Jackie Young: But unfortunately, there are some Republican measures now in Congress that may change that for for legal immigrants.
[1:00:09] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, Smita.
[1:00:10] Caller: Thank you very much.
[1:00:11] Randall Roth: And I have a note, I'm not sure what it means, but it says, 'Jeff from the studio.' Jeff from the studio, you're on the air.
[1:00:19] Caller: Hi Randy. I have a uh can you hear me?
[1:00:22] Randall Roth: I can hear you.
[1:00:23] Caller: Good. Um you know that you'll be in a new age group, uh because today is your birthday, and so I think we may need affirmative action for your age.
[1:00:33] Randall Roth: Affirma age. Okay. Well, thank you very much.
[1:00:37] Caller: Happy Birthday Randy.
[1:00:38] Randall Roth: Yes. Um you've been listening to Price of Paradise radio show and my guests today were Jackie Young, the director of the Governor's Office of Affirmative Action, and Jared Jossem, an attorney specializing in labor law and former head of the State Republican Party. Our technical director is Jeff Allardi and our producer is Suzie Ron. I hope you'll be listening next week when we're going to have a show on the Bishop estates. Our guests will be Dicky Wong and Jerry Jervis, who are two of the trustees of the Bishop estate. Uh that may sound like a one-sided conversation, but hopefully our callers are going to be providing the other side of that conversation. It's a show we've been working on for quite a while, and we think you'll enjoy it a lot. Want to wish all the mothers out there, Happy Mother's Day. I hate to compete, this being my birthday. Uh Happy Mother's Day. We appreciate mothers a great, great deal. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

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