Affirmative Action at the UH Law School
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-06-30
Guests: Joanne Punu (Assistant Dean and Director of Admissions, UH Law School); Mary George (former State Senator)
Duration: 01:04:57

[00:00:21] Randall Roth: off a wife in Hawaii, and that administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Our topic today is affirmative action. And with me to discuss it, are two of my favorite people, JoAnne Punou and Mary George. Joanne is the assistant dean at the University of Hawaii Law School, and among other things, is responsible for admissions there. She began her career in higher education in 1970 at the East West Center, and at one point was director of the MBA admissions program at Berkeley. She has served on a number of national committees relating to admission to legal education. She has both an MA and an MBA from the University of Hawaii, and is active in community affairs here in Hawaii.
[00:01:01] Randall Roth: She serves on the Board of Directors of the Hawaii Domestic Violence Center, and was recently appointed a sexual harassment information advisor for the University of Hawaii, Manoa campus. She is a a former Peace Corps member and and a good friend. Good morning, Joanne.
[00:01:16] Joanne Punu: Good morning, Randy.
[00:01:17] Randall Roth: Another good friend, uh Mary George, who happens to uh to be seated to my right, served for a quarter century in various elected positions, including the Honolulu City Council, and the Hawaii State Legislature. Prior to that, she was a community activist who among other positions served as the president of the Honolulu League of Women Voters. She is a card-carrying member of Mensa, and has been named woman of the year by the Honolulu Press Club and National Legislator of the Year by a national organization. She has a degree in Oriental Studies from the University of Washington. She lived in Venezuela for 16 years, as well as some other very interesting places. She worked at the uh Reader's Digest and some other places as well, very interesting person and again a good friend. Good morning, Mary.
[00:02:00] Mary George: Good morning, Randy.
[00:02:01] Randall Roth: Well, we're here to talk about affirmative action and uh our listeners who have had a chance to look at page three, the op-ed page of this morning's Honolulu Advertiser. They know that uh you've each got some thoughts to share about this topic that uh at least in some circles is is very controversial. Uh certainly timely. Mary, you were commenting that in the focus section, uh there are some other stories that that relate to at least themes that are part of our topic.
[00:02:27] Mary George: I think so. It's it's a pervasive theme in uh in today's conversation. You can't go to a cocktail party without somebody bringing up some aspect of it, whether it's um um women or colored blacks, or um ethnic, whatever it is. Some somebody's going to mention something that touches on affirmative action.
[00:02:47] Randall Roth: And they had a political cartoon there next to to your article and and Joanne's article suggesting that we have a people have have started labeling everybody as being man or woman or black or white or whatever.
[00:03:00] Mary George: You've gotten into the heart of the controversy, Randy, because I think uh its divisive characteristic is the one that bothers people the most.
[00:03:07] Randall Roth: And and I think if one tried to sum up uh your position as eloquently stated in your article, uh is that you would say affirmative action when you strip away the the very good intentions behind it, uh what you have at its core is discrimination.
[00:03:23] Mary George: Absolutely, that's that troubles, troubles me.
[00:03:26] Randall Roth: Uh you had in in your your draft of what ended up in the paper, something that got edited out, a quote from Colin Powell that I thought was kind of interesting. Do you recall that?
[00:03:34] Mary George: You tell us it was edited out. What a shame. Yeah. Discrimination um uh for somebody is about, no, I'm not saying this right. It is is discrimination against somebody else. But it's You can't discriminate for someone without discriminating against someone. Yeah. I thought that was Yeah. Got edited out. I'll get Jerry for that.
[00:03:52] Randall Roth: Uh, Joanne Punou, uh I've read your article as well, and um you start off by saying, of course, uh we all should be color blind, but I think again, if if I've read your article correctly, you say that there's there's a a competing goal that's very, very important and uh we need to really do what we can to to accomplish it and that's diversity.
[00:04:14] Joanne Punu: Exactly, Randy. Um I think that um being colorblind is an ideal. But the realities of American society, its history, um are such that we're not ready for that yet. We're not quite there. And although I think that some of the recent court cases which are clearly starting to roll back affirmative action issues, um there've been a series of them, um may maybe okay. Maybe it's the time to start taking a look and evaluating and there clearly have been some abuses. But I'm going to make the argument that in education, diversity is probably the most single important ideal that we should be seeking. And uh affirmative action may still be the best way for us to achieve that.
[00:04:57] Joanne Punu: I don't think that we finished the job there and I think that as an educator we still need to defend it.
[00:05:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Mary, um what do you think about that?
[00:05:05] Mary George: Well one of the things the word back kind of bothers me, Joanne, when you say roll back. I think what's being done is we're reminding ourselves of the Civil Rights Act. And it's um um marvelously clearly stated um um national, not a goal, but national truth of equal rights.
[00:05:28] Randall Roth: But how do you get there?
[00:05:29] Mary George: That is Civil Rights Act is a piece of paper, and it was a noble ideal, and it still is. But the fact is that I don't think we necessarily achieved its intention. I think the affirmative action response was to the realization that in reality, we had a lot of things we needed to do before the Civil Rights Act could come to full flower.
[00:05:50] Randall Roth: Joanne, are you telling me that the ends justify the means? I think you are. Or or as you put in your pieces morning two wrongs don't make a right.
[00:05:59] Mary George: Well, not necessarily. In the in this in the um arena of higher education, for example, the the suggestion that diversity is a wrong goal rankles me. I I have to admit. Um the notion that we should have See I Higher education is the door to opportunity. It is necessarily opportunity itself. It's the door to opportunity. And um educators in this country have been concerned about diversity far longer than the Civil Rights Act or Baki or Hopwood or any of these cases. They've been concerned for interestingly uh the quote in this morning's paper by Cornelius Felton, another line was cut out. His words were spoken on the eve of the Civil War, and I find that really ironic, um that he was talking about the need to reach out in higher education to diverse populations as a necessity for building a truly civic-minded population, a truly democratic one.
[00:07:01] Mary George: So to look for diversity as a wrong, I the two wrongs don't make right, I'd have to argue that I don't think it's wrong in higher education. I'm not saying diversity is wrong. On the contrary. I think diversity is is um not only a a worthwhile goal. I think it's a reflection of um of our country. We are a diverse country. And diverse I agree with you, diversity is wonderful. I just don't believe that um discrimination is a way to achieve it.
[00:07:30] Randall Roth: Let me let me put this in a real specific context. There's a a case out of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals from earlier this year. It's called the Hopwood case. And Joanne, I think you would suggest that people are going to be hearing more about Hopwood, especially if if the Supreme Court decides to take it and and review what the Fifth Circuit has done. Joanne, very briefly, and I know it's it's it's not something that can be easily summarized, but very, very briefly, what happened in the Hopwood case, what did the court decide and and what's the impact on affirmative action in higher education?
[00:08:02] Joanne Punu: Briefly, you have to go back to an a bigger case, the Baki case of 1978, in which um among other things, there was a lot going on in that case. But uh Justice Powell at the time declared that race is a a permissible factor, as a quote, plus factor they call it, in considering admissions to higher education. Um his position was that diversity of higher education um need for that justified considering race as a factor, not as an extreme an exclusive end. So for nearly 20 years, institutions of higher education have used Baki, um as a consideration factor. Um in 1992, four white applicants applied to the University of Texas Law School and were denied.
[00:08:46] Joanne Punu: They filed suit on the basis that their quote index scores, which this particular law school uses to admit people were higher than minorities who had been admitted. And that's what Hopwood is about. When a lower court judge basically upheld the university, although it criticized the abuses of Texas system, the way they were doing it. It said, and in the end, it's okay. Um but this the appellate court in the Fifth Circuit, um decided it isn't okay and that no longer could the schools in the the Fifth Circuit use race as a factor at all in admissions.
[00:09:20] Randall Roth: So even though it was a factor, what the Fifth Circuit decided happened was that somebody who was black for example, leapfrogged somebody who was white, got got admitted even though they were lower on this list that was based on on scores.
[00:09:34] Joanne Punu: Yeah, interestingly, it's based on quantifiable scores. But what it didn't consider is the soft factors in a file. Why those individuals, why other factors in the file might have given you cause to leapfrog someone over.
[00:09:48] Randall Roth: Okay. Mary George, what do you think of this Hopwood case, as you understand it?
[00:09:52] Mary George: I'd I'd sort of like to pass on the direct relationship to educational institutions. What interests me about it is that it's part of this of the picture that seems to be consistent in in other areas. The um I don't remember the names of the cases, but um uh there's the one about whether the low bid for a government contract uh could be passed over uh by virtue of the of the minority ownership of a firm that bid that placed a higher bid. And um then there's the case about the drawing of legislative lines in which the court also ruled that um uh color, race could not be used as the dominant factor. So I think the whole um the whole picture is more than just admission to um a college of higher education. And I think it's um it's a reflection of a national disaffection for anything that's perceived as uh tilting the playing field again.
[00:10:59] Randall Roth: You know, Justice O'Connor, uh Sandra Day O'Connor in um in the case that Mary you just referred to, uh she said that that basically there's a tension here between the 14th Amendment guarantee to equal treatment for all citizens. That's on the one hand. On the other hand is the use of race-based measures to ameliorate the effects of past discrimination. So she seemed to be saying a tough choice has to be made. And in that opinion, as you indicated, 5-4 decision out of the Supreme Court about seven years ago. They were not seven years ago, a few years ago. They said um you just can't make this decision based upon race. Equal protection for all. Joanne, you think education is somehow different?
[00:11:39] Joanne Punu: Absolutely. I think it is very different from state actions, and I'll I'll uh agree with Mary in that I think some of the abuses of the affirmative action system in contract awarding in things like racial gerrymandering are have clearly caused a backlash in this country and I'm sorry to see that because had it been a a wisely employed system, I think that we would have uh less reaction, you know, a a visceral reaction from the American public. And I think there clearly have been abuses. I I won't defend and support it when when people like O.J. Simpson can be classified as economically disadvantaged to take uh take advantage of minority contract bidding. There's clearly something wrong with the system.
[00:12:26] Randall Roth: You're peaking at my notes. I I was going to ask because I read an article that was saying uh O.J. Simpson was among a group of of others who were very And my my favorite uh quote uh a Colin Powell was also a beneficiary of this same He and and Patrick Ewing, uh the actor Mr. T, and and Dr. J, the famous basketball player, uh they are all quote economically disadvantaged because they're black and they got a big tax advantage in buying a TV station. Joanne, you would agree that's hard to justify.
[00:12:57] Joanne Punu: Absolutely. And I mean that is such a grotesque definitional change, and I think we would all agree, if that's the case, I would like to be economically disadvantaged.
[00:13:05] Mary George: I think one other what that leads me into is something else and that that's my feeling that this whole conversation is um uh somewhat inappropriate for our state of Hawaii. When I was on the City Council and we used to we we were an equal opportunity employer, okay. Everybody in Hawaii belonged to by federal definition, a minority owned uh um well we're all minorities. So and and um I think the the place it is mostly applied here is to women. But for uh uh ethnic, race, the rest of it, I don't think it's appropriate.
[00:13:47] Randall Roth: Well I should be breaking to tell people to call in, but I think we got an interesting thought here. Joanne, surely you got a reaction.
[00:13:52] Joanne Punu: That definitely a reaction. Yes, we are such a a mosaic in Hawaii, but it doesn't you don't have to look far to see that color lines have clearly existed in Hawaii and and and that we have groups here who clearly have not enjoyed the full benefit of participation in all of Hawaii. And the fact, we would it would be nice if we could break off and do this differently, but the fact is whatever the Supreme Court ends up ruling is going to affect us. So if we're looking at a history of difficulty for native Hawaiians in this state, for example, and we're attempting to provide them further opportunity by access to higher education and can no longer do that, that's a problem I think.
[00:14:38] Joanne Punu: And I, and I'm not sure that our community thinks that that should take place. Um, Well to put it into a specific context, uh at the law school, I know at at times in the past, you've talked about the under-representation in the bar of uh Filipinos and Samoans and and various groups. How how does that or should that factor into the admissions process? Well, I believe that it should. I absolutely believe that our community deserves to have representatives in certain of the professions, in in medicine, in law, that look like them. That they can go to. Um You know, the color line in in in law was was very marked as as recently as 20 years ago. Talk to individuals like C.J. Richardson, Marshall Goodso. Um Marshall will tell you that his firm didn't even start hiring a person of color in their firm until 20 years ago.
[00:15:29] Joanne Punu: And that law firm's what? Almost 50 years old. So there clearly was a color line and I think that we have through consideration of affirmative action measures have started to move that. And we clearly have in that profession.
[00:15:44] Randall Roth: It's interesting. Max Batachelli, who was a professor at the University of Hawaii Medical School for a number of years wrote uh a very eloquent argument in support of affirmative action so far as admissions to the medical school is concerned as well. Mary, I'm sure you've got a reaction to that.
[00:15:58] Mary George: No, I think you're, what I hear in back of Joanne's um uh moving statement there, is the word quota. Oh. You you would like to see, absolutely not.
[00:16:11] Randall Roth: And that's that's a very negative word when we use the word quota even supporters of affirmative action get a little nervous. Why is that not an appropriate word?
[00:16:19] Mary George: Because it doesn't allow you to consider, for example, the individual cases. It's a group thing. And yes, the overlay of affirmative action does recognize that certain groups have been disadvantaged in society, but it doesn't therefore say that you must fix a quota to redress that. That's wrong. That's clearly wrong. But in an all things being equal situation, when an individual file comes to a margin point, um clearly at that point, if you've got 50 files and two seats left and you've got individuals who clearly could address their their histories in Hawaii that did not allow them to fully partake, at that point in time, I think they deserve the nod and at that point in time, race is the additional allowable factor that should figure in.
[00:17:07] Randall Roth: Well folks, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show and we've got what I think is a very interesting conversation going here on affirmative action. With me in the studio is Joanne Punu who is the director of admissions, the associate or the assistant dean at the University of Hawaii School of Law and at one time was the uh director of admissions for the University of California at Berkeley uh their MBA program. Mary George is a former legislator and former City Council person and uh very interesting person in general who also is with me in the studio. Now is the time in the show that we'd like to get listeners involved. If you would like to make a brief comment or ask a question of our guest, just call us at 955-8821.
[00:17:46] Randall Roth: If you're on a neighbor island, just add 1-800 so it would be 1-800-955-8821. Joanne, I just mentioned that at one time you're in charge of admissions at the University of California, Berkeley MBA program. California is kind of at the cutting edge on a number of things, but here with Governor Pete Wilson basically saying, it's not quite this extreme, but basically saying, no more affirmative action of any kind in the state of California. Uh and there seems to be a lot of public popular support for that. Quick reaction.
[00:18:17] Joanne Punu: We'll find out in November. Um it's called the California Civil Rights Initiative, CCRI sponsored by by uh uh the Governor, and it will be on the ballot, which it does exactly as you described. Um the university system of course, uh about a year ago, um took off after affirmative action, um their own Board of Regents. It's clearly going to have an impact. My colleagues at the law school and the MBA programs are very, very concerned about whether um certainly not in California, but in other places in this country, whether we're going to return to kind of the the lily white look of some institutions of higher education, and a possible return to segregation.
[00:18:56] Randall Roth: Mary, you are a Republican, uh Governor Pete Wilson is is a Republican, and in fact, I think this is one of those issues where uh President Clinton and Senator Dole uh are most obviously at odds. Uh just how politically charged is this issue of affirmative action?
[00:19:14] Mary George: I think it's bound to come up in people's minds as they cast votes in November, but a lot of it's going to be because of the perception of uh the differences between uh uh the representatives of the two parties. And I'm not sure these are always correct. Um, I think Pete Wilson for example is, we'll know in November, but I think he's reflecting what his constituency has indicated quite strongly, at least if the polls are correct, that um enough already of affirmative action.
[00:19:47] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's see what listeners have to say. Let's go first to Wayne, uh from St. Louis High School, I believe. Wayne, good morning.
[00:19:53] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Oh, I think both sides have come up with very good points, but I think um the problem really is uh not so much a a black and white situation on a theoretical level when you discuss things in abstract, but the problem really uh appears in uh particular situations. I I agree with Mary that uh in most cases race is not really a problem, but here and there there are problems. I think one place that does have it is the University of Hawaii Graduate Programs, uh where um many departments have a predominance of mainland students of Caucasian background, and very few uh local students can get into these programs. I think um it's a testimony to the law school that it's one of the uh few ex uh graduate programs that has a lot of local students. I and I congratulate the law school for practicing what it preaches.
[00:20:44] Randall Roth: Okay. Wayne, thank you for your call. We appreciate that. I'm going to take a another caller or two and then we'll see what uh Mary and Joan have to say about all this. Let's go to June in Kaimuki. Good morning, June.
[00:20:53] Caller: Good morning. Yes, thank you. My question has to do with the fact that racism in Hawaii has manifested itself in the form of colonialism. So, what are the dynamics of that colonial history and uh neocolonialism that affect uh how we look upon affirmative action in Hawaii today?
[00:21:13] Randall Roth: Uh, good question. Mary George, what's your reaction to that one?
[00:21:16] Mary George: I'm not sure uh um, I'm not sure what the factor of colonialism has to do with uh with current um um obvious problems of inequality. Um, I I I perhaps the caller is referring to um a perception of some of some sort that I don't really get.
[00:21:35] Randall Roth: June, let me get Joan's thoughts, and I'll come back to June. Joan?
[00:21:38] Joanne Punu: Well, I'm I'm guessing June that you're saying that, you know, the this this nation of ours here in Hawaii was um a a a place for Native Hawaiians until mainland uh economic and religious interests came in, they essentially were Caucasian when they came in. And I'm assuming that that's what you mean, that that that the the major uh uh changes in Hawaiian society at that time represented a kind of colonialism and that we're still paying for the vestiges of that.
[00:22:09] Randall Roth: So maybe we feel particularly strongly about some of these issues in Hawaii because of that history. I I would say so. Well, June, did we did we hit what you were thinking of?
[00:22:17] Caller: Well, I think with racism we have issues of power and in terms of of for example, we we have a history of of uh people of color not being able to uh break a glass ceiling in the private sector, which is why they uh there's for example, Japanese uh were um much more inclined to work in government. And now we see situations of Japanese Americans being dominant within the government sector. There is a there is a reason for that.
[00:22:51] Randall Roth: And and June, you would say affirmative action is at least a a part of that explanation.
[00:22:56] Caller: Oh, yes. And it would need to be seen in the context of colonialism because separate from that, it's very difficult to understand.
[00:23:04] Randall Roth: Okay. June, we appreciate your call. Uh, let's go to Milton in the Diamond Head area. Good morning, Milton.
[00:23:09] Caller: And, good morning. Um, uh, I do have a lot of experience with affirmative action, you know, both in the military, and I also, I work for the FAA. You know, inside Diamond Head Crater.
[00:23:20] Randall Roth: Oh, so you're literally inside uh Diamond Head. I thought you were in the Diamond Head area. Go ahead.
[00:23:24] Caller: Yes. Um, the facility here. Um, when I was in the military, um, like uh I I'm I'm part Hawaiian, part Chinese, and they they, you know, under under the military was considered an other. You know, as far as ethnic, you know, background, I was other. Um, but um
[00:23:41] Randall Roth: Doesn't feel good to be other, does it?
[00:23:43] Caller: It's It's actually It was actually, you know, fairly interesting because, uh, you know, we we'd have like the the um equal opportunities, like the meetings and whatnot. And but the the the the thing is I was I was going to the air traffic control school for the the military and there were people there that were like carried, literally carried to the program because the color of their skin or because they were female. And there were people, you know, uh and I'll say now who are controlling traffic, who shouldn't be because they were given like 10 to 15 points on the test. You take a test for, you know, for the the the the federal job. And if you, you know, if you're black, um, Hispanic or or has a Hispanic surname, there were female, you get so many points. Like, you know, I was in the military. I I got five points for being in the military. So say somebody who went to military with me who was black and and female would get like uh five points for being in the military, five points for being black and additional five points on a test. It's like, like OJ Simpson got points.
[00:24:40] Caller: And And yeah, it's it's, you know, on a point system, and there are people, you know, here that I work with who who pretty much like uh depended on uh the affirmative action, you know, point system to get their jobs. Now we have a couple of people here which I consider like extremely incompetent, who it it'll take an act of Congress to get rid of these people. You know, now they they they were hired during the strike when they were hard up for people where they were like uh, you know, and and affirmative action was in, you know, in in full swing.
[00:25:09] Randall Roth: Milton, let me let me get a reaction to what you've been saying as as I sit here and and both listen to the reaction and reconsider a trip I'm planning to the mainland next week.
[00:25:18] Caller: I I'll tell you, I I'll tell you there are a lot of a lot of the problems with the FAA now, a lot of them have has has has to do with affirmative action because a lot of people got into the system.
[00:25:26] Randall Roth: Milton, Milton, you've made your point very, very well. Let me get some reactions to it. Let me get some reactions.
[00:25:31] Caller: Okay, cuz, I'll go ahead.
[00:25:33] Joanne Punu: Well, you this is clearly, uh, you're talking about affirmative action in employment now. We need to get these arenas clear.
[00:25:40] Randall Roth: And and and so that people who tuned in a little bit late, you have a a a different approach when higher education is involved, because that's just in a special category.
[00:25:48] Joanne Punu: Yes, I do believe so. Um, I'm I'm I'm not sure how to respond to Milton because I don't know what play these points have. I mean, if it's uh, if you get five points and the the most you can gain is 10, then wow, that's a big thing. But if you get five points out of 200, then what's the big deal? Theoretically, these people are are in the qualified zone.
[00:26:10] Caller: So, five points is in in in in a in a core of one to 100, and they only pick say the top 10%.
[00:26:16] Randall Roth: Okay. Milton, Milton, let me let me get Mary's reaction and then then I I have to get some uh other callers on. Go ahead, Mary.
[00:26:22] Mary George: His uh um comments resonate with me. I spent a good bit of of my political career as a member of a minority. I was a woman. I was a Republican, and believe me in Hawaii in politics at that time, that was a uh being definitely in the minority. And uh um I have a um an unshakable conviction that cream rises to the top. If you work hard, if you're basically qualified, uh the point the point system is uh tends to make you work harder. I don't know, Milton, am I are you and I talking the same language here?
[00:27:03] Caller: Well, okay, the when it comes to, say, taking a test and say if you score, um, say, say if you get the the 10 the the 10 point difference, if somebody um scores a 90, say, you know, a white male scores a 90, and you score an 80, uh, you will get preference because you got the 10 point difference and you are minority female.
[00:27:24] Randall Roth: Okay. Milton, I I I know. Milton, you and Mary, you and Mary on the same wavelength. I appreciate your call. Thank you, Milton.
[00:27:38] Joanne Punu: Well, he he he used the the the four letter word test, t e s t, and uh You had me worried for a second. I know, with my finger on our imaginary button. The test is is is I don't know what the test purports to measure. I don't know what its biases are, but testing is a is a whole interesting aspect of affirmative action. I mean, we have people who would argue that if they scored at a certain level on the law school admission test, that's it. Nothing else should matter, they should be admitted. The test is imperfect, and many tests are, and the research is still going on about whether some of these tests are are have inherent biases in them. It's not finished. It's it's incomplete and it's an imperfect system. So, I'm a little whenever I hear the word test, I start to kind of itch a little bit.
[00:28:29] Randall Roth: How else is cream going to rise to the top, Mary?
[00:28:31] Mary George: Joan's pushing a button for me here because um um I think the refinement of the criteria is what is basically what we ought to be doing. You're saying the tests are imperfect. Okay, let's perfect the tests. Let's perfect the criteria for entry and into law school, and then you won't have to have a special case. Maybe it needs special criteria but not special exemptions or discrimination.
[00:28:59] Randall Roth: I I think that was a a key point you made in your article this morning that we should attack the the problems that are the cause of the inequality as opposed to going after the symptoms.
[00:29:09] Joanne Punu: Well, that's a great goal, but I'm not sure how you perfect testing. Um, they've been trying it for decades in this country.
[00:29:16] Mary George: Not just testing. The criteria.
[00:29:17] Joanne Punu: Yes, but, but interestingly enough, and this this leads me right back to the education argument, the criteria are plural, um, and and many factors need to be considered when you're evaluating people for a certain whatever. Um, whether it's a place in an in a law school class, or an undergraduate program, or a position, and and um I'll I'll go so far as to agree the criteria need to be thought about much more carefully, and um, I think higher education, well, that's exactly what's going to happen in light of the Hopwood case is schools are going to retreat back and start to think about just equality.
[00:29:59] Mary George: Think about diversity in a different way.
[00:30:32] Randall Roth: It's interesting. Uh, Mary is over here, her mantra is equality, and Joan, your mantra is diversity. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We sometimes call it pop radio. My name is Randy Roth, and I'm here with Joan Punu, who's the director of admissions for the University of Hawaii School of Law, and Mary George, who is a a one-time legislator, city council person, and a number of other things as well. Again, we're talking about affirmative action. And if you would like to ask a question, or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. And if you tuned in late, you can catch the entire show tonight at 8:00 on KIFO, that's 1380 AM. 8:00 tonight KIFO 1380 AM.
[00:31:17] Randall Roth: Well, I want to raise a topic that Joan, I I think you touched on in your article this morning. You, as I recall, were saying that in the old days, we saw Hawaii and and the United States as a microcosm of of Europe, and the goal was uh a melting pot. The new vision, at least I think what you would suggest, most people, certainly in Hawaii, want is that we're a microcosm of the world, and uh we are singing the praises of multiculturalism as opposed to the so-called melting pot concept. Any thoughts?
[00:32:22] Joanne Punu: Well, there is no question the American tableau has changed dramatically in a hundred years. Um, it was okay. I think it was appropriate to think about the melting pot when this country was kind of getting itself established, but one of the interesting aspects is about the melting pot is that Poles, um, Germans, Italians, Irish, we were all of the same race at that time. So the melting pot notion was a little bit easier to achieve, and and and and the immigrants to America were Europeans essentially. This is a very very, as you can see, different country today. It is made up of Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, and within Asians so many different groups that are very different one from the other, Filipinos from Japanese, and that makes for a real different definition of society. And I think we need to shake off the melting pot. I think we need to say, I'm excited to know about your Hispanic culture or your Hawaiian I think it's wonderful to celebrate those differences instead of trying to make everyone merge together. And it's just time for a different paradigm.
[00:33:00] Mary George: Mary George, is it time for a different paradigm? Yes. It it is uh It is time for me to uh counter what you had to say, Joan. It's what it's time for. Um, I think maybe uh maybe my age is useful in this because when when I grew up, when I was in school in Michigan, and that was a long time ago. I was in the graduate school there briefly. And have you ever been to Hamtramck?
[00:33:44] Randall Roth: No, I have not.
[00:33:45] Mary George: Well, Hamtramck was full of ethnic diversity. They celebrated their their uh uh particular, specific cultural uh values, um, after work and weekends. But, man, were they ever Americans. Their kids spoke unaccented, flawless English and and there was no effort to retain um as as a major factor of their lives. When I grew up in Seattle, there were Obon dances, okay? This was in the days of the melting pot, and ethnic diversity does not get swallowed.
[00:38:00] Randall Roth: it gets celebrated as a matter of fact.
[00:38:03] Joanne Punu: Do we have agreement or disagreement here, Mary?
[00:38:07] Mary George: Um, I don't think we should um add to, I'm going to use the word divisive again. I think your your idea of um multicultural mosaic as opposed to a melting pot divides us, categorizes this like this cartoon in this morning's paper with all the little file drawers. And I I like the idea of a melting pot. I I'm a fan of Hayakawa's. Do you remember the sleepy senator? Yes. He was a semantics professor of very early on before that got to be a real uh uh a real thing to take in school and uh he was I guess the founding father of um English as the national language. And I'm a fan of his. I'd like to see it.
[00:38:55] Joanne Punu: Well, I think it's interesting looking forward too because this whole argument may be quite moot as as we we change so dramatically in this country, the largest single growing racial group is the mixed race individual in America and I I hope I stick around long enough to see how all that plays out. It's intriguing that Hawaii is far ahead on the learning curve with this and could very possibly kind of set the tone for the way the country goes. But in the mean But in the meantime, you're saying at least with respect to higher education, we still have to categorize people and we have to take into account a person's race. Yes, I think we do.
[00:39:36] Joanne Punu: Um, if I can give you an an example, um when the the law school opened a little over 20 years ago, you could probably count on one hand the number of native Hawaiian attorneys in the bar here. And as a result of the law school opening and its its consideration of of the special situation of native Hawaiians, they are almost passing away intriguingly in the law from the the the situation of of of of a special consideration that so many have been able to come through and be successful. And this is what's very interesting. Um, listening to Milton's comment, I don't know what FA is doing in its hiring, but the folks that that have come in through the law school um under affirmative action and have graduated are great attorneys out there in the bar.
[00:40:21] Joanne Punu: And they're doing a good job and you would never never in a minute say that, oh, well, they're not doing the job very well. And you take great pride in the fact that a very high percentage of our graduates, much higher than the population generally, uh have been native Hawaiians. Actually, it's if I look at the alumni data, it's about the same. It's about 15% uh somewhere in the range of 15-20% of our graduates in 22 years have been uh 20 years of of graduates. Is it an increasingly or decreasingly uh high or small percentage? Uh intriguingly we our native Hawaiian students are now coming in with very strong files and going regularly right into our first year class without any affirmative action consideration, but we have new groups that are not as as well represented, um clearly not, and I think we know that. Pacific Islanders, Filipinos.
[00:41:15] Joanne Punu: Mary, uh we've just raised the topic of of Hawaiians here in in Hawaii and something in your article this morning that caught my eye was that you said we sometimes practiced what you practiced what you called reasonable discrimination. uh specifically you said uh there hasn't been an effort to integrate non-Hawaiians into the Kamehameha schools. um can you explain a little bit more what you had in mind when you wrote that?
[00:41:38] Mary George: That was I think I used that as an outrageous example to uh uh to point up that there are are some areas that people simply won't stand still for quotas I think is one of them. If you were to say in the law school, for example, that um you had to have a a 50/50 division between uh men students and women students, okay? Or uh uh that was an an outrageous one. Just the way the Hooters um uh
[00:42:07] Joanne Punu: The men needed uh to be hired at Hooters and
[00:42:09] Mary George: at Hooters, those things dressed appropriately. Uh Of course. Of course, okay.
[00:42:14] Joanne Punu: Well, we've got a caller. Let's go to John from Makiki. Good morning, John.
[00:42:18] Caller: Good morning.
[00:42:19] Joanne Punu: What do you have for our guest this morning?
[00:42:21] Caller: Well, there are a couple of arguments in favor of affirmative action I haven't heard, and I just wanted to raise them and see um Mary's reaction. One is as I'm a school teacher and in education, it's very valuable to have diversity in the classroom, especially because I teach social studies. Um how can I get a real discussion on an issue without diversity?
[00:42:41] Joanne Punu: Okay, and I'll just note that Joanne is over here nodding uh in a very vigorous way, she agrees with that uh statement or that question. Mary, what do you think?
[00:42:49] Mary George: Well John, I'm I'm curious to know how you're going to achieve diversity in a public school that opens its arms to everyone. Can can you exclude or include people on the basis of um a diversity of race, I don't think so. You you got to take what you got, no?
[00:43:05] Caller: Well, of course not. But but also I I teach for for and specifically when I've taught um constitutional law, um I've noticed that in the classes where there's a great deal of diversity, the discussion is much better. The the ability to really get in depth of the issue is much better. Um if it's if it's a classroom where I've had once at, which is almost entirely white and male, the discussion never gets anywhere.
[00:43:28] Joanne Punu: But are is there disagreement here, in other words, Mary, you'd like diversity, you just don't think we should discriminate to achieve it?
[00:43:33] Mary George: That's right. It's the way of getting at it I think that um that troubles me and that troubles most people. I don't think anyone would um uh would would disagree that your your uh job would be made easier if you had good representation from people with a variety of backgrounds and a variety of viewpoints. But uh would you uh want to leapfrog people? I I like my verb there. Okay.
[00:43:59] Joanne Punu: John, I'm going to come back to you in just a moment, but I want to get Joanne's thoughts on this. I I know you've got another point to make, Joanne. I I think what Mary's um where Mary is is at an ideal place that we're not, I'm still going to argue we're not ready for and I completely appreciate what John's saying. You take a college classroom and let's leave Hawaii out of this for a minute because we're bound to have diversity anyway. Um, but let's take a college classroom in Iowa and and imagine talking about a notion of justice with nothing but middle class white kids. It's it there's no way you're going to have a conversation that challenges assumptions, that shows depth, and that brings frankly very different viewpoints because the notion of justice is very different for someone sitting in in Nebraska, say of the white race, than it is for someone sitting in South Central LA, who's African-America, than it is for someone who's native Hawaiian sitting in in the Waimanalo.
[00:45:01] Joanne Punu: John, I know you had another point.
[00:45:02] Caller: The the second point is regarding role models. Um when we talk about um affirmative action with regard to employment, I know for example that um when I taught at Campbell High School and there were very few Filipinos or students students were Filipino and did not have Filipino teachers, they seldom if ever thought about becoming teachers. They don't see someone in society who is in that role. How are we ever going to motivate them to be able to uh to aspire to become that? I don't think that cream just automatically rises to the top.
[00:45:30] Joanne Punu: Once again, Joanne Punoo is indicating she agrees with that statement. Mary George, I'm curious, what do you think?
[00:45:41] Mary George: I I still think that you've got to use fair methods of achieving your desirable goals and I'm going to hold hold you to that one, John.
[00:45:50] Joanne Punu: Okay. John, you made some very, very good points. We appreciate your call. Thank you.
[00:45:54] Caller: Let's go to Emma at Punahou. Good morning, Emma. Good morning. And uh I find the whole talk really interesting because I am Filipino and somehow the Filipino uh group is always sort of included. Well, um the affirmative action, I think should be practiced in a limited way. You know, if it's if everyone should just because one is Filipino and one is Hawaiian and one is uh um another colored group that they should be given a priority, then I think that is not good. I think one should be judged um based on ability, based on aptitude, based on willingness and based on self-confidence.
[00:46:41] Joanne Punu: Emma, let me get a reaction to that from Joanne Punoo. Yeah, okay. Um, I agree, Emma. I think she's hit it right on the head. It should be practiced in a limited way. It's partly, I think what I've been saying. But um I think we're forgetting to ask why we need or why we've even considered affirmative action necessary in this country and that's because of racial discrimination.
[00:47:01] Caller: No, I think because the minority don't have a voice yet. When there is a devel like I mean in Hawaii, I have been living here for 30 years as a Filipino woman and basically, I think discrimination is economic. Because my husband is a professor, everywhere I go, I was not considered Filipino, I am Emma, you know, and I was accepted as Emma. But then uh and then my when my husband goes to another group, well, he he's just a person, you know, accepted as he is because he is with me. So there is sort of a colorless and so I am in a good position in many ways. But when I am with other people, you know, they said, oh, you know, as if they worship me in a way that I am in a better position than, you know, than they are.
[00:47:53] Caller: But then with this uh affirmative action, I think it could be probably later, you know, be phased out until the minority has developed leaders like uh well, you know, one example of course is our uh leaders. But then, anyway, I think the group should have some leaders and then they will be the one leading the group. And then once that is established, then you can face up affirmative action.
[00:48:24] Joanne Punu: Okay. Emma, thank you very much for your call. Really appreciate it. I'm going to get a quick reaction from both Mary and Joanne and then we'll go to another caller. Mary?
[00:48:31] Mary George: I think Emma Emma's four reasons for criteria for getting anywhere are excellent ones. I approved of it and uh in no in no way did she indicate special things. These these were four attributes that could belong to to people of any color, of any ethnic group, um women, Republicans, Democrats, whatever it is.
[00:48:57] Joanne Punu: Uh Emma made made the point about economics, personal economics being a key factor, and I'm going to ask the question, what what is the the traditional normal avenue for improving your economic status in society, and it's education, and there it is, and it's higher education. And if anyone tuned in late, again, you've commented that especially when higher education is involved, you're a strong proponent of affirmative action. Yes, I am until we get this thing fixed for once and for all. Okay, well you're listening to Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're talking about affirmative action with Joanne Punoo, the director of uh Admissions at the University of Hawaii, Law School and Mary George, a one-time legislator, city council person.
[00:49:37] Joanne Punu: Um if you'd like to call, our number is 955-8821 and if you tuned in late, you can hear the show in its entirety tonight at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM. Let's go to Steve in Manoa. Good morning, Steve.
[00:49:50] Caller: Good morning. I have uh two quick comments. One, um I believe that the whole question of the subtle racism in society is probably one that 99% of of of our howlie population and I'm one of them. I remember the howlie, probably don't detect. I've I personally lived in an in a in an Asian family all my adult life. And if I hadn't lived inside it, and if I hadn't seen some things in my own eyes, I probably would not have accredited the existence of certain things. And so I think some of the viewpoint that is is presented about the melting pot ignores the the uh advantages for the howlies in the melting pot situation and I don't think I think 99% of howlies and I think they're very sincere, I think they don't detect it. I don't think they realize it. I I don't think they know about things like getting slightly better service at an airline counter and things like that.
[00:50:48] Joanne Punu: So Steve, you that that people who are not howlies will detect and can point out to you but unless you've lived it, you don't know it. So you would suggest you would suggest that affirmative action is simply leveling the playing field that there maybe howlies don't realize that the playing field isn't level.
[00:51:02] Caller: I think that's it. I think they think with that, you know, somebody said, a rich man always thinks that he got his money from God because he deserves it. I I think I think that there are certain little advantages that that they have that they don't realize. You've made a very good point. Let me get Mary's reaction to it and then we'll come back to you for your other point.
[00:51:18] Mary George: Obviously, there interior things, subtle things that everybody doesn't understand. Uh I don't know how Steve uh is it Steve we're talking to? I don't know how Steve can't understand the subtle discrimination I have felt over the years is for being a woman.
[00:51:35] Caller: No, I I haven't I haven't experienced it. I I may be I can. And and why? Life is life is full of those. At the moment I suppose I could I could make reference to uh subtle discrimination because I'm also a senior. I'm 80 years old. There are discriminatory factors there as well and uh you do your best to uh um to to have empathy with what other people are thinking and feeling and that's that's all you can do.
[00:51:59] Joanne Punu: Okay, Steve, you had another point?
[00:52:01] Caller: Yeah, my my second point had to had really to do with multiculturalism as a general concept. Um multiculturalism versus the ethnic uh melting pot. In a way, it's a false question because multiculturalism does not exist, doesn't exist anywhere in the world. It's an If by multiculturalism you mean a box, a society is a box in which a whole bunch of people have separate but equal cultures that totally understand each other and live in harmony. Almost always in a situation where you have a bunch of different subcultures, you have some overarching shared thing. I mean, people, in order just to communicate with each other, have to have some sharing. And what is important is that shared culture. In other words, if we all agree that we're going to have a discussion, and we're going to have a discussion, and there's some rules in the discussion. I'm not going to talk when you talk. I'm going to respect your point of view. Uh you're going to respect my point of view. There's some rules of engagement, in other words. That itself represents an overarching culture which people share.
[00:52:58] Caller: So it isn't it isn't you have to have one of the other. You can actually have both. As long as you have a sufficient glue in your overarching culture and both sides, or all the sides, think that that overarching culture is of benefit to them to share. Take a look at Canada. Canada is currently in the throes of pulling itself apart. Let's hope they don't, but but but they have a lot of problems. One of the reasons they're doing this is because the French Canadians believe that the overall Canadian culture does not give them a fair look at the total picture. They does doesn't let them uh their voice be heard, doesn't let their voice be heard in French and so on and so forth.
[00:53:33] Caller: Um, their dissatisfaction is with this overarching culture, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And multiculturalism, total multiculturalism will never occur and total integration will never occur. There will be a balance between the two, and it's the question of that balance.
[00:53:47] Joanne Punu: Steve, let me get a reaction to that, and then I've got a bunch of Okay, hang up and listen. Well, I appreciate your call. We've got some more people I want to get to and so I am going to move on but I really appreciate your call. Joanne, do you have a reaction to what Steve's been saying? Um Steve's hit on what is going to be, I think a great debate in our society. What is multiculturalism? What does it really mean? I don't think that there real really is a full definition. It's a blooming conversation in America. But I would say that let me give you a kind of superficial but real example of how something would play out in melting pot versus multicultural.
[00:54:17] Joanne Punu: Let me use a local example. In a melting pot concept, the Native Hawaiian language was suppressed and lost and discouraged. In a multicultural concept, it is encouraged, it is taught, and it is seen. That does not mean just because we're teaching native Hawaiian language again and and and and and encouraging people to latch onto their language, that they do lose an overriding overarching sense of connection or value. That's the difference between melting pot and multiculturalism. I think that's a pretty important distinction. Okay. Well, we've got some people who've been waiting very patiently on the line and we're down to the last seven or eight minutes of the show, so I'm going to move a little bit more quickly than I have been.
[00:54:57] Joanne Punu: Let's go first to Tahana on the Big Island, Kona area. Good morning, Tahana.
[00:55:01] Caller: Oh, good morning. I wanted to speak as a parent and as an educator, and I wanted to just let you know that I feel that affirmative action is like in the blooming stages, as you said. And just the fact that we're aware of it and our children are aware of it, um is a real really important. I wanted to share with you something that my eight-year-old, we're howlie, we came here five years ago. I wanted to share with you what she told me one day in coming home from school and I thought it really summed up what what was happening with her. And she came home, she said, "I am so sad." And I go, "Why?" and she goes, "I cannot play football." And I go, "Why cannot you play football?" and she goes, "Because I'm a girl." And I said, "Well, well the girl down the street plays on the high school team. Of course, girls can play on a high school, you know, in in football," and she goes, "And because I'm howlie."
[00:55:51] Caller: And I go, "Oh," and she goes, "And because I have freckles." So, she was experiencing, I felt like prejudicism like across many like different different views, you know, being a girl, being howlie, being ugly. But I really feel like as an educator, too, and I work with these kids, the diversity is a really important issue and meeting them on their their levels. I feel like if we're going to talk about affirmative action, why are we talking about it on the graduate level? Why aren't we speaking up in the schools, at a, you know, in the low grade levels? Why aren't we dealing with these issues of prejudicism, you know, Okay, at this level and meet them with their needs right then, so that when, by the time they're adults, they have a perspective.
[00:56:36] Joanne Punu: Okay, Tahana, I really appreciate your call. I'm going to have to move on so I can get to everybody else. Thank you very much.
[00:57:00] Mary George: commercially fished, we've built boats for a living, he has a computer drafting business, we have a bed and breakfast, um I'm a, I've been a Montessori teacher. We've got and these are just a lot of things that we've done. I've had Montessori training but no other formal education has been passed on to us. We are Haole, we are advantaged in our upbringing in that sense, but anybody I believe should be encouraged to get education not from schools. We we're way over-dependent on institutions for learning. We need to teach children in grade school how to become learners in life.
[00:57:28] Randall Roth: Okay, well Mary George just said Amen and she agreed with that when Jenny, thank you for your call. We need to move on. John in Makiki, good morning, John.
[00:57:36] Caller: Good morning, sir. I have a interesting perspective that I don't think most of society even has considered. One is that uh as a group of people such as the Portuguese, who have been uh serving all the cultures throughout the history of the white men coming here. Strangely enough, I've observed that when a group of people, culture is growing, they usually have certain institutions established. And in the Portuguese culture, it's a shocker. They have no chamber of commerce. They have no television station, which the others do. And it's shocking that they were here, and as an intermediary between the upper management and the working class, and there is nothing to account for that. How the society looks at it, it's as if we don't exist.
[00:58:28] Randall Roth: You know, John, this I I'm this is really touching uh a button for me because when I was first on the admissions committee at the law school and I was trying to understand what affirmative action was all about, and trying to understand my responsibilities as a member of the committee. I asked a number of people, where do the Portuguese fit into this whole thing? And I read some articles and it turns out that that some people lump the Portuguese with the white, you know, category. Others put them into a special, uh, you know, minority group category. There there's just no agreement out there, I think on just where the Portuguese fit once we start categorizing people.
[00:59:02] Caller: We're lost in this culture.
[00:59:04] Randall Roth: Lost in the culture. Let me get a quick reaction from Joanne Punoo then we have to move on, but I really appreciate your call, John.
[00:59:10] Joanne Punu: Well, um John, it's it's interesting, the University of Hawaii um currently has kind of categories to identify its incoming students, if they so choose to be identified. It's optional. But um I think this is the only place in the country where one of those distinct and separate categories is Portuguese. Um, so certainly, at least, at the university you are recognized, and I think that that is clearly a reflection of the unique experience of Portuguese in Hawaii.
[00:59:37] Randall Roth: And that was a result of our conversation, Joanne back in those years. Very unique experience. Um, very quickly because we're running out of time, I have about one more caller. Mary, a reaction to what John was saying?
[00:59:45] Mary George: No, fine, let's let's get the whoever's left.
[00:59:47] Randall Roth: Okay, let's go to Mary. Mary from Kailua, you've got just a few seconds, go for it.
[00:59:51] Mary George: Um, I was wondering if either of you see a possibility that some revision of affirmative action as it is performed today could take place to eliminate most of the abuses and be a moderate step toward a day when affirmative action was really not needed.
[01:00:11] Randall Roth: Okay, good point. You know, I'm going to use that as kind of a springboard into an invitation for each of you in about 30 seconds to kind of sum up your thoughts, Joanne Punoo.
[01:00:19] Joanne Punu: Um, I think Mary that that's that's exactly what where we're at right now. I think uh, Clinton's um said it, mend it, don't end it. I think he's recognized the abuses. Um, I think that the government's willing to say that they got a little carried away, and and I don't think anyone would bemoan that. Um, but I do think, as I said in the beginning, certainly at least without without education, education is a special situation. It is the doorway to opportunity. We aren't there yet. Um, I I certainly hope, to be blunt, that Hopwood, the Hopwood case, fails at the Supreme Court level. Um, I I think we're we're not ready uh yet for that, and and I agree with you. Hopefully the day will come when we can be as colorblind as Mary would like us all to be.
[01:01:05] Randall Roth: Mary, 30 seconds.
[01:01:06] Mary George: I think we're getting there. I think the court the Supreme Court will will very likely sustain Hopwood if the uh example of the uh uh citadel and VMI holds out. That seems to be the tendency. You you don't like uh the Citadel ones.
[01:01:24] Joanne Punu: Oh, no no no no. No, I'm responding to the court's reaction on what I think it'll be.
[01:01:28] Randall Roth: Okay. So Joanne would say diversity, diversity, diversity. And Mary George would say equality, equality, equality, and somewhere in the middle we've got to decide as a people what to do with affirmative action.
[01:01:38] Joanne Punu: Absolutely.
[01:01:39] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, folks you've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My guests this morning were Mary George and Joanne Punoo talking about affirmative action. The director of operations at Hawaii Public Radio is Jeff Alardy. Our producer is Susie Roth. Wally Roth helped with the phones this morning. Next week we're going to talk about capitalism and market economies. Is that good? Is it bad? Is it somehow rotten at the core? And especially what about Hawaii's economy? Is our economy healthy? Is it something that we should be proud of? Are we headed in the right direction? Or is it something that uh again, really needs some work? Are we are our thumbs up or are we hanging by our thumbs? We're going to have um Bank of Hawaii Economist Paul Brewbaker and uh Political Scientist and member of the department of ethnic studies at UH Noel Kent here, talking next week. You've been listening to Pop Radio. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
[01:01:53] Randall Roth: Next week, we're going to talk about capitalism and market economies. Is that good? Is it bad? Is it somehow rotten at the core? And especially, what about Hawaii's economy? Is our economy healthy? Is it something that we should be proud of? Are we headed in the right direction or is it something that uh again really need some work? Are we are our thumbs up or are we hanging by our thumbs?
[01:02:13] Randall Roth: We're going to have um Bank of Hawaii economist Paul Brewbaker and uh political scientist and member of the Department of Ethnic Studies at UH, Noel Kent, here talking next week. You've been listening to Pop Radio. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.