UH and Hawaii’s economic recovery
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-03-15
Guests: C. Barry Raleigh (Dean, School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology, University of Hawaii); Stanley K. Kawaguchi (Vice President, Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade & Douglas); Dean Neubauer (Professor of Political Science, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 01:01:03

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our topic this morning has to do with the University of Hawaii and its role in our community and our economy. With me in the studio is Dean Neubauer, who is a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii Manoa, who also teaches in the areas of public health, sociology, business, and public administration.
[00:00:44] Randall Roth: He's been at the university for 28 years. Also, Barry Raleigh, who is the Dean of the School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology, sometimes called SOEST. And Stan Kawaguchi. Stan is the vice president with Parsons, Brinkerhoff, Quade, and Douglas. It's the oldest continuing consulting engineering firm in the United States, and very importantly, he's a 1993 or 1963 alumnus of the University of Hawaii. Stan, why don't you start this conversation off by telling us real quickly what you think is really going on so far as the big picture is concerned?
[00:01:21] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Thanks, Randy. Uh, I think we're into a global market and we here in Hawaii have to make a big decision. Do we want to get into it or don't we? If we decide we want to, and certainly the four of us around this table, I believe, have agreed we do, then certainly the University of Hawaii has a potential to be a major catalyst in moving economic development here in Hawaii. And we can get into that later. But I think here in Hawaii, we've got a basic question to answer. Do we want to? In other words, we perhaps have to understand that if we say yes to that question, then we're opening ourselves up to a very, very high level of competition.
[00:01:59] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: That's what the global market is all about. But if we say yes, then the university certainly has this tremendous potential to drive us forward.
[00:02:06] Randall Roth: So right now, how would you describe what we're doing if we haven't opened ourselves up to the global market, what are we doing?
[00:02:14] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: We're vacillating. That's the problem. Some of us have said on one out of one side of our mouth, yes, let's get into the global market, let's invite people in. And I think yes, from many, many quarters in our city, we've heard, we don't have the money ourselves to get into what we need outside capital to help us move into the global market. That's one side. The other side of our mouth, we say quietly to ourselves, let's keep them out. Let's protect ourselves. Let's protect our local businesses. Government, that's your job. And this is the vacillation that's taking place. Once and for all, we need to put that question out in front of the table in front of all of us and make a decision.
[00:02:53] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Do we want to get into it or don't we? The assumption of course, here this morning is, we do.
[00:02:58] Randall Roth: Dean Neubauer, uh, would you agree that this is a reasonably good way to begin our conversation about the university as a catalyst for economic development Hawaii?
[00:03:08] Dean Neubauer: I I would Randy, and I'd, uh, like to say in the context that Stan has set that we, uh, we we would do well to think about what the consequences of such economic development would be. If, uh, in the worst case scenario, if you pursue economic development and it destroys the things that you want to preserve in your economy, then in effect, what you destroyed is the quality of life for many of the people in the society. That's a worst case scenario. I'm not saying that necessarily would happen. But the perspective I'd like to, uh, hold on to in this morning's conversation is the notion that the purpose of economic development is to improve the quality of life.
[00:03:45] Dean Neubauer: So that when we we think about the things that we want to do, when we think about the role of the university in being a catalyst, that we think about the values that, uh, that go along with these activities in the community.
[00:03:56] Randall Roth: Are those values consistent or inconsistent with opening up to the global market and competing, recognizing that competition means some people are going to lose?
[00:04:05] Dean Neubauer: Yeah, well, sometimes they're inconsistent. Uh, I've I've argued recently, for example, that globalization around the world seems to be accompanied by, um, income stratification, that is, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Uh, it may be that we are in a in a point of world history where that's inevitable, but I don't think we should assume that on the outset.
[00:04:26] Randall Roth: Okay. It's interesting, Stan, you had a piece in the paper this morning and it said, I think, something like the informed are going to get richer and the uninformed or the under-educated are going to get poor. Uh, did I Well, paraphrase that reasonably well?
[00:04:39] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Well, Randy, what I said in in my article this morning's paper was that in times of change, the learners will inherit the Earth. Okay. And learning really then puts smack dab in the middle of this whole thing, the university system. And a strong university system becomes important to that.
[00:04:56] Randall Roth: Well, I suppose it's about time we're getting to the University of Hawaii since that's the theme of our conversation this morning. Barry Raleigh, um, how does the University of Hawaii fit into this bigger picture that Stan and Dean have briefly described?
[00:05:10] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh, I'd like to comment first on what Stan just said, and then I'll get to that. Uh, what Stan is actually driving at is that we, um, we, if we compete, and I believe we must compete really well. Uh we make a conscious decision and then go after it with uh with our resources and our intentions are very clear. Uh, where does the university come in? I personally think that the university is essential to any strategy of trying to attract and grow, in particular, grow our own locally uh based uh high-tech or knowledge-based industries, if you will. And and uh, the the other examples where that uh correlation exists are are are many. And I think we can do it.
[00:05:56] Randall Roth: Okay. You say, well, don't we have to compete? I mean you you make it sound as though we have a choice. Should we compete, should we not? I thought that one had to compete or they sooner or later were pushed to the side.
[00:06:09] C. Barry Raleigh: I I believe we have to. I don't think there's any choice. And we don't know what the eventual outcome will be, but I I do believe if we're going to compete, we can compete in areas where we have very special advantages in Hawaii. Uh my personal preferences are that we, uh, concentrate our, uh, our, uh, hiring at the university, our, uh, our resources on biotechnology. That it's it's a marvelously growing field. There are people at the university who are doing excellent work already. And in particular, we have a special advantages in marine biotechnology.
[00:06:47] Randall Roth: Well now, let's assume for a minute, we're playing a zero sum game and it may be that that that's the best possible scenario. They're talking about cutting the budget a lot. But let's assume a zero sum game. I think what you're suggesting is that a lot more funds are diverted into that direction which which suggests in a zero sum game that they come from some other direction. Um, is that what we're talking about?
[00:07:11] C. Barry Raleigh: I I don't think there's any choice at the moment. There's not a lot of, uh, state money to be invested, although I don't believe that the state can possibly expect the university to to respond to this need to be a stimulus for economic growth without making an investment. But the university has to itself decide that it's going to reallocate resources once that decision about where to put them has been made.
[00:07:36] Randall Roth: Dean Neubauer, is the university, whatever that means, whether I'm talking about the regents or the president or the Faculty Senate or some other individual or group, is the university ready to do that?
[00:07:48] Dean Neubauer: Well, that remains to be seen. I think that uh there's still lots of uh places in the university where the the wakeup call hasn't come uh even on the budget cut, let alone this broader agenda of what the university should be involved in as a catalyst for uh economic development. I could just say one thing that we talked about, uh, there was a conference on uh Friday afternoon and Saturday at the university about this subject. And this issue came up again and again and again. What are the incentives within the structure of the university to encourage people in the university to act and behave in this way? And most of the speakers who addressed that said, we have to start thinking about how to change that incentive structure.
[00:08:28] Dean Neubauer: I come from the social science out of the the house, uh little bit different orientation than than Barry. And my concern is that uh as we move into the community, we get all aspects of the university involved in notions of economic development because this is not just an issue of of high technology. If we use Stan's uh uh expression, which I like, uh that that that the non-learners uh are not about to inherit this this part of the the the earth, uh we then have to have a broader frame about uh what it is, who's going to be a learner? Uh what what is it that we're going to be learning? Uh I'm I come from a perspective in which uh the notion of how you run organizations, how you frame organizations, how you put together people in social networks is a part of what we would call social technology.
[00:09:18] Dean Neubauer: I think that we have to redevelop our social technology as well as the technology in the lab which produces electronic miniaturization or biotechnology or these other kinds of things as well.
[00:09:29] Randall Roth: You know, as I sit here and I hear, for example, Stan mention the word competition. Um, what I envision so far as specific attempts to compete are concerned, is going out and paying whatever the market requires that we pay for the very top person in whatever area we've decided to more or less place our bet on. And that could require us to pay 200,000, 300,000, 400,000. The sky is the limit once you start talking about whatever the market requires that you pay. And I'm not sure I can envision a lot of folks on the faculty at the University of Hawaii who are making a lot less than that, saying, well, it's okay, we'll let our budget be cut X dollars or we'll lose Y positions, so that we can have this superstar over here in SOEST or whatever the other area might be.
[00:10:19] Randall Roth: Is the university ready for that sort of competition?
[00:10:24] C. Barry Raleigh: We had we had a blush uh brush with that uh earlier in our history where we started out in that direction and then and then backed away from it. Uh we all know that other universities have done this. As I look at the universities who have done this, I've seen that they've got far deeper pockets than uh than we have. So it's always been a dilemma for us. As a Dean, uh when I was a Dean at the university, uh I I was accustomed to uh to losing faculty at at UH to Michigan and Wisconsin and and other places where they were simply able to offer these folks uh labs and emoluments that uh were vastly in excess of what we were able to do.
[00:11:01] Randall Roth: We've been the farm system in a way. We've developed a star here and there and then somebody else took them.
[00:11:05] C. Barry Raleigh: We've seen our young people uh go go to other universities and mature. So uh I I want to go pick up Barry's theme here. There we we have to make, if we're going to do that, we have to make choices about where we're going to do it. Secondly, I don't think it always pays off. Uh we we we do have examples both at this university and other universities where you put a lot of money uh into the superstar competition and then it doesn't pay off. It's a risk business like anything else.
[00:11:30] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Randy, I agree, but let let me put it in a different perspective because I come from the private business sector. A private business, we've been doing that for many, many years. We go out and search out the superstars. We buy them. We literally, well, I don't want to use the word buy, but we basically You pay what the market we pay what the market requires. Absolutely. That's a good term. And and what happens then is that these people become what we call, quote-unquote, the rainmakers. Rain meaning we bring them in and rain, fortune, rains on the firm. Uh Microsoft is doing the same thing. Bill Gates with all these research center research centers. He's he's going out and and basically gathering up all these top brains.
[00:12:11] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Recently, there was another article between where there was competition between the city of Los Angeles and the city of Atlanta in Georgia. In Atlanta, what happened, the government along with businesses and there was Ted Turner's CNN or Turner Broadcasting plus Coca-Cola and others, and they outbid the city of Los Angeles for the services of a top scientist. That person's going over and they expect other satellite and allied industries to start setting up shop around Atlanta. So this is going on in the real world. You've got to get out there and compete and take some risk.
[00:12:42] Dean Neubauer: I I just I just want to say that uh I don't think we should see this in these dichonomous terms. Uh in in the last 15 years, I think this university has done brilliantly in terms of hiring junior faculty in in a market which has been PhD rich. So we can get into this business of hiring really first rate faculty, uh top flight faculty at at the junior level. Then the issue is can you retain them?
[00:13:08] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh yeah, that's a good point. Can you retain them? You can't retain them unless you can you can keep paying them what the market requires, uh, and the market really is on the mainland. But uh let me just remind you that when you hire someone who's a first-rate scientist, uh they're usually getting funding from the federal government that vastly exceeds their salary. So we have people in our school who bring in a couple million, 3 million a year of federal money. And from the state's point of view, that's a great investment.
[00:13:38] Randall Roth: You know, Barry, I I don't want to embarrass you, but when I was talking to somebody about your background the other day, they commented that if the University of Hawaii was the Chicago Bulls, you were the Michael Jordan of this particular team. And they went on to explain that um uh and I have no idea what you're making and I'm certainly not going to ask you, but you're making more than the university president. You're an example of somebody that the university is evidently gone out and paid what the market required for you to come. And the person that I was talking to was said it's no said it's no accident this that the School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology is relatively highly regarded, when I say relatively, in terms of the units at the University of Hawaii, it's very highly regarded and they say there's a direct connection between being willing to pay what the market requires and having that kind of outstanding performance.
[00:14:26] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh yeah, the reality is it's the faculty who do it. It's not it's never the Dean. Uh but uh my coming and by the way, my coming here actually uh I I actually accepted a lower uh total compensation package than I was getting in New York. But there are a lot of good reasons to leave New York. By the way, that's another point that we have in our favor here. We have a we have a place that uh when we recruit, we'll find at least one out of three come here, accept a lower standard of living simply because Hawaii is such a wonderful place.
[00:14:59] Randall Roth: So maybe we don't have to actually pay in dollars what the market says these folks are quote worth that there is some added value from simply having a place like Hawaii for them to come to.
[00:15:11] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh I think that's right. And of course, particularly in our field in the ocean sciences, marine biology and so on that uh that Hawaii has really a special attraction. What I should say though is that uh you can't attract anyone of the highest caliber unless you've already got something in place where there are a lot of very bright people working. When we go somewhere, we like to go where there are very good people. The best faculty like to be associated with smart people.
[00:15:39] Randall Roth: You also commented during this conference over the last couple of days that Dean mentioned that we simply have to fix K through 12 that very bright people are very concerned about the kind of education their children are going to get. And the impression I had was that the audience was 100% behind that statement that until we as a state fix K through 12, we can forget about attracting the very highly educated people.
[00:16:05] C. Barry Raleigh: Yeah, I think that's correct. Uh and and the second point of course is that if we do intend to uh provide jobs for people, we've got to have people trained so that uh their their education fits them for the kinds of jobs that are going to become available in a knowledge-based industry.
[00:16:25] Dean Neubauer: I just wanted to second that a bit. I've had conversations in the past few years about places like Boise, which which has become uh a a mecca for uh software industries. And if you ask people why they relocate to Boise, it's the natural environment, plus uh other kinds of amenities. When people when you talk to people who are considering this kind of move to Hawaii, the uh the the notion of what constitutes an amenity includes the cost of living and uh the quality of uh K through 12 education.
[00:16:56] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Yeah, Randy, that that gets again back to the private sector. The prerequisite, if you want your company to go and let's look at the state government or the university as a company. Number one is you've got to have a reputation of quality. And then you bring these gurus or these rainmakers in and you can really start to move. But quality is a very basic issue, you must have it first. And I think all of us have been saying that also is that the University of Hawaii, if we're going to move the university to become a catalyst to drive the economy here, or at least start things moving, that it must also enjoy a reputation of being a quality institution.
[00:17:32] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: And that of course goes back to what Barry and Dean are saying then, you've got to have the feeders coming up which are the K through 12, and we've got to have quality education there as well.
[00:17:40] Randall Roth: And the implication of what I'm hearing is that we don't yet have that level of quality, that that's something that we have to do something different in order to to attain.
[00:17:52] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Yeah, let me let me add to what you just said. Are you going to avoid the answering that question? Well, I no, I'll tell you what I think it is. I think we've got a reputation that the K through 12 is perhaps not as good as it should be. What I really believe on the university level is that the rep the the quality is there in many, many areas, but people don't know it.
[00:18:13] Dean Neubauer: Part of that's my comment. I think we have more quality than, uh, than we're able to show people. Uh once again, to go back to the the period when I was uh dean and social sciences, which was during the 80s, I was constantly amazed what, uh, this faculty in the social sciences was doing. And, uh, and I think and I know that's true of of other schools and colleges as well. Uh, in we have some indicators at at national levels that many of our departments are very well, uh, well-ranked among their peers. Uh, I think that we suffer from the poor cousin uh self-imposed notion of the poor cousin reputation here where we uh we think less of ourselves than others think of us.
[00:19:00] Randall Roth: the TV news, here's a lot autonomy. Uh President Mortimer is saying it's terribly important that we get autonomy, and there's a bill in the legislature referred to by many as the autonomy bill. Very really real quickly, what in the world is that all about, and just how important is quote, autonomy for the University?
[00:19:18] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh, autonomy for the University is absolutely essential. We we are uh, sort of at the beck and call of the the uh, state government. And uh, yeah, I believe me, it works a very great hardship on on the people at the university. It's very difficult to do things. It's slow, hiring is almost impossible. You can't reward faculty for performance is uh that are, you know, exceptional. Uh, and every every direction you turn, procurement, uh personnel policies, uh ethics commission rules made for regulators rather than university professors. The the university, unless it has its own its own complete autonomy, it should it should be almost completely separate from the state. I think it's going to be very difficult for us to achieve the sort of uh stimulus to the economy that we're we're looking for.
[00:20:06] Randall Roth: Well, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth. We're talking about the University of Hawaii as a catalyst for economic development here in Hawaii. With me in the studio is Dean Newbauer, who's a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, Manoa, Barry Raleigh, who's the Dean of the School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology at the University of Hawaii, Manoa, and Stan Kawaguchi, who's a 63 graduate of the university and vice president of Parson, Brinkerhoff, Quade, and Douglas, which is the oldest continuing consulting engineering firm in the United States. If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, our number is 955-8821. If you're on the neighbor island, it's 1800-955-8821. We're on Oahu, and there's a tendency for us to bring people in from the Manoa campus, but the University of Hawaii is statewide and we are especially interested in hearing the voices from the neighbor islands. I'm sure you've got some perspectives on this issue that are at least a bit different from those of our guests in the studio. So whether you're here on Oahu or on a neighbor island, please give us a call. Again, on Oahu it's 955-8821. From a neighbor island 1-800-955-8821. The University of Hawaii as a catalyst for economic development. Let's go first to Mike from Manoa. Good morning, Mike.
[00:21:25] Caller: Morning. Um, I'm a faculty member at Manoa, but I'm speaking as an individual, uh this morning. Um, I think that the connection between the economy and the university are a lot deeper and a lot more sinister than than the current discussion is recognizing. Here are a couple of facts. Uh Hawaii, uh to the best of my knowledge, at least last year, was ranked 50th, dead last, out of 50 in the percentage of its budget that it spends on public education, not just the university, but the uh schools as well. Dead last. Uh a second fact is that uh under Governor Wahi, the state economic planning Commission projected out as far as 2020 uh as to what state money would go into and what the industry would be and it was going to be tourism and more and more tourism. In other words, despite the rhetoric about economic diversification, there is a clear written commitment to increase tourism and massively so.
[00:22:16] Caller: Population increases of up to 80% on Maui, for example, and projected need to import Micronesians and others uh for the kinds of demeaning jobs that that will create as locals won't do it. Now, part of that and Gregory Pi made a speech to the union, the faculty Union, during uh shortly after that period and he was one of the authors. Part of the consequences of that is that the state economic gurus see no need for a high-powered university in this state uh and the the one caveat is that if units can bring in and be virtually self-financing, bring in enough money to pay their own way, well then they'd be allowed to continue, even more if they make a profit.
[00:22:52] Caller: Otherwise, the the need for seeing is not for things so much like humanities and social sciences, but for applied sciences, biotech, anything that feeds directly into the tourism like TIM, uh economics, and so on. So what I think we're seeing now is not just a simple reaction which we're always used to because that's just about the only planning we get on or off, namely reactive planning, uh to Asian currency crisis and so on. What we're really getting here is part of a long-term policy, which is to run down research and graduate programs at the university in favor of undergraduate programs and a general more vocational training orientation. Two more brief points. Uh in with specific reference to the discussion so far this morning, I think um that if we do that, and I'm certainly not against, you know, improving undergraduate education at at UH. But if we start cutting swathes of departments, as is currently, uh float, there are plans to do just that floating around the campus. Uh local people who ultimately pay for the university through their taxes, their children, and many of them are going to have nowhere to go. We're not it's not as if we're talking about a university in Northern California. If they close down San Francisco State tomorrow, for example, local residents there could go to any number of other universities.
[00:24:08] Randall Roth: Okay, one one more point, Mike. We've got to get to it. We got to keep it moving.
[00:24:12] Caller: Okay. Well, uh then I'll stop. But that that's the kind of thing I think should be discussed. It it it's broader than that. We need forward planning, genuine economic diversification, and that would include um bumping up the uh money given to schools and to the university here rather than what they're doing now, which is instead of sanctioning the hotel industry with higher taxes, for example, room taxes when they screw up, uh they should be looking at economic diversification, and the brain power that is at the university now to to funnel.
[00:24:38] Randall Roth: Okay. A lot of provocative thoughts passed on by Mike. Let's get some reactions to them. First Stanley, and then we'll move around the table.
[00:24:45] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Yeah, Mike, uh I couldn't agree with you more. I think that certainly focus has been tourism and it's been growing. And I believe the reason that's happened is because we just sort of let it happen. We have not had a focus ourselves. And I think this is why all of us are here this morning. Now when you say ourselves, are you talking about the the the university community? No, I'm talking about the state as a whole, all of us, the people who comprise the state of Hawaii. We sort of let this happen. And so this morning, I think we're here saying, there is a different way we can approach this. Now, one of the things I've said to many friends is that one of the problems we have here, and Mike, you're right, is that we view the University of Hawaii like another department, another line department in the government of the state of Hawaii. And what we're proposing, and I am at least, is that we should now begin to look at the university not as a line department, but rather as an organization or a a a group, a community that has a potential to drive economic changes here.
[00:25:46] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: But we've got to make that investment. And what that requires, if we're going to get to that point, is we've got to have a major paradigm shift, a shift in thinking of how in terms of how we view the University of Hawaii. From my sector, the private sector, I'm saying, if I were to invest money, I'd invest it in the university because I believe that in this state, that organization has the best potential right now to drive the economy in a different direction.
[00:26:13] C. Barry Raleigh: Look at Singapore. They have a similar situation to us. Small land base but a a very dense population and no natural resources. What do they do? They they they have a very, very high investment in education. One of the highest educated populations in the world and they're doing great economically.
[00:26:27] Randall Roth: Mike, I'll come back to you. I really will. I promise I'll come back to you. I want to get some more reactions to what you've put on the table already. Dean Newbauer.
[00:26:33] Dean Neubauer: Mike, I agree with many of the things that that you're saying. Uh I'd like I'd like to put a turn on this, however, which is a little bit differently. Um in in in my world, a lot of things are compared with what, and uh I've been looking at uh state funding of higher education across the country, particularly uh in the land grant universities. And one of the things that we see nationally is a transformation from state supported education to state assisted education. The University of Maryland uh over the past decade has been mandated to uh reduce its state support down to about 1/3. The uh University of Wisconsin uh through uh one of the great state land-grant universities has been uh having budget cuts throughout the 90s as its level of state support has been uh has been wrought down, too. The University of California, which uh was celebrated in our conference this weekend by um Mary Walshock, who is the the vice chancellor for uh extended services uh and outreach at at the University of California, San Diego, a university that gets uh campus, that gets $400 million uh in external funding uh as as an example about how the university can uh can can compete successfully and be uh a paradox of uh of economic development, gets 23% of its funding from the state.
[00:28:22] Dean Neubauer: So, what we are seeing in Hawaii uh is is um is is very hard for us who've lived in this university for a long time to accept. Uh and I'm not saying that we should uh not continue the arguments that you're making. But I think it's also wise to to to see these things. One last thing, Barry Munitz, who's the outgoing chancellor of the California State University system, uh a 20 a 23-campus uh outfit that uh educates over 350 million 1,000 students uh annually in California, has indicated recently that in the next six years, higher education spending in California and spending on prisons are going to uh change because of the relative positions in the budget.
[00:28:32] Dean Neubauer: So there are pressures throughout the the rest of what is happening in state budgets to uh militate heavily against state universities, not just the University of Hawaii.
[00:28:40] Randall Roth: Few thoughts from Barry Raleigh.
[00:28:42] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh, Mike, you uh uh drew attention to the sort of difference between if you will, uh supporting undergraduate education at the university and supporting graduate education and research. Uh I'd like to point out that in our case, we evaluate all our faculty and the best researchers are actually the best teachers. They're the ones that are most exciting. They're they're bringing new knowledge to the table, they're uh they're involved heavily with the creation of knowledge and the students respond to that. So the stereotype of of the great scholar who's off in his office with the teaching assistants actually meeting with the students, that's not accurate. Oh, we have some of those, too. But I but I I think a lot of our people, most of them have a have a strong conscience about trying to educate the kids. And the the job market is an extraordinarily competitive one. These uh jobs in the high-tech industries in California are something that we're just barely teaching our kids.
[00:30:37] C. Barry Raleigh: The these uh jobs in the high-tech industries in California are something that we're just barely teaching our kids. I don't think the the sense of how how important it is to have a very strong uh uh scientific and technical education has quite quite sunk home yet and that starts at K through 12.
[00:30:56] Randall Roth: Okay. Mike, back to you to close it, and then I have to move on.
[00:30:58] Caller: Yes, very briefly. You saw on why in Kai's state of the state speech. I mean the idea of building uh prisons at the same time that you're closing down schools and increasing class size exactly what was just said. I just want to emphasize to fin to finish, the lack of planning, both on campus. I mean, we have a huge bloated administration that suddenly announces it has to cut masses of areas or is or is talking about doing so. And we have the same thing at the state level. Why is it the Japanese corporations are buying into aquaculture on the Big Island, for example, and the state isn't supporting adequately, at least uh similar efforts? Why is it the poor working people are laid off, and now poor working faculty member, we're education workers after all, when the state screws things up, despite the fact that uh informed people have been urging economic diversification for years.
[00:31:43] Randall Roth: Okay, Mike. Appreciate your call. Uh we have on the line, Jim Fryerson. Uh Jim is in Chattanooga, Tennessee. He and another fellow were brought out here a couple months ago by by several local organizations to share their experience with economic development in Chattanooga. Jim, can you hear me okay? Yes, fine, Randy. And I I guess you found out about this radio show because somebody had emailed to you some information about it. The wonders of the Internet. Isn't it great?
[00:32:08] Caller: Well, this has been a fascinating conversation and I I think it's actually heartening to me. I I was there the week before Thanksgiving and had a chance to see several people across the entire community and to meet with about six different groups. With me was our leading city councilman, David Crockett, with a wonderful Tennessee name. And we were invited out really to share with a a group of of of of of of Hawaiians across business, government, academic sector, and journalism what our community went through in a very parallel way just in the last 10 to 15 years, a real economic crisis and and a wondering about our own future. I will have to say, I came I came to Oahu in particular figuring that because of your position in in the world, you simply had to have an outward-looking mentality. That your businesses had to be thinking in terms of exports, that your knowledge-based enterprises needed to be thinking about relationships with with the mainland and with Asia.
[00:33:21] Caller: And it was initially surprising to see how the contraction of the 1990s has forced virtually every institution in Hawaii, universities, businesses, and everybody to look inward and to question where where things are going. But I find this conversation encouraging and and just a couple of thoughts back to the earlier part of it. One, there are no zero-sum games in this business. Uh if if the university is thinking as a catalyst, that's the beginning of of of of progress right there. Second, the global economy is not something you choose to join or not. You're in it, and you have to wake up every morning recognizing that you're in it. And third, I hope the university gets the autonomy that it that it needs if autonomy means relative freedom from micromanagement and interference by by state government. But on the other hand, I hope you recognize that you're not autonomous doesn't mean alone.
[00:34:13] Caller: One the one of the wonderful things about you as the 50th state is that the other 49 states want to see you succeed, not fail. And if the call goes out for for good ideas and parallel models, I think you're going to find a lot of people wanting to work with you as our community of Chattanooga is already doing. And finally I want to tell you that there's a group of 25 or 30 who are coming to Chattanooga in June specifically to take a deeper look at what what we did here. And uh there will be a university counterpart to that delegation, so we're delighted.
[00:34:31] Randall Roth: Great. Jim, thank you so much for calling in this morning. You're very welcome. Um we've got some people on the line and we're going to go to them in just a moment, but we do have a couple of open lines now, so if you'd like to get in line, we will get to you before the hour's up. The number is 955-8821 or from a neighbor island 1-800-955-8821. We're talking about the University of Hawaii as a catalyst for economic development. We go to Bob from Honolulu. Good morning, Bob. Oh, Randy, hi. Bob Sorry Spoku. Oh, hi. Bob Bob, you're Why don't you describe real briefly what what your role is with respect to um, uh, lawyers in Hawaii?
[00:35:06] Caller: Well, I do a lot of lobbying at the legislature, so I'm familiar with with the process at the legislature, and I do represent the consumer lawyers as well as several businesses, including uh the retail merchants and some some a large healthcare uh provider. Uh but I just wanted to uh add that I think that the the university should be the center. I agree with all three speakers. Uh I just have one other comment or question. I know that the Lieutenant Governor Mazy Hero had shared the uh task force on science and technology, and I thought that there was some movement uh between the university and private sector to move ahead to in this area to develop uh science and tech.
[00:35:55] Caller: And that's that's the question. The only other comment, Randy, is that I'm not sure if you had mentioned uh as a rhetorical question that we have to fix uh K through 12 uh prior to the university moving ahead in this uh global market. And I I just disagree a little bit. You always have to try to fix K through 12, but if the university uh takes the lead, uh you need funding of course. But if the university takes the lead uh and provides uh uh this moves forward in this area, then I also think that that K through 12 simultaneously can be improved and move in this area. And it will give hope to a lot of young people to to stay here in the future.
[00:36:40] Randall Roth: Okay. Oh, and I made the K through 12 comment, I was referring to something that Barry Raleigh had said yesterday, and Barry as the Dean of the School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology is a perfect person to respond to your first comment. So let's see what Barry has to say. Thanks, Randy.
[00:36:53] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh, briefly, Bob, I think the uh, K through 12 education is something you do in parallel, not in sequence. We got to do both. But uh, I I wouldn't consider waiting on the university until uh we get that fixed. That's going to take a while. The science and technology task force that the governor formed and was headed by uh Lieutenant Governor Maizie Hirono, has in fact issued a report which I think were pays reading. It it really pulls a sharp focus on the university's role in economic development. Subsequently to releasing the report, however, there has been more activity just as you suggest and I think the uh, next week, the president of the university and Lieutenant Governor Hirono are meeting with the Business Round Table, which is as you all know a group of about 40 or so uh CEOs of the major corporations in Hawaii. And, and and their purpose is to talk about what we do next.
[00:37:48] Randall Roth: Okay. Dean Newbauer, good morning, Bob. Good morning. I'd like to um turn your question just a tiny bit around to our focus on the university as a catalyst and the notion of of what can... analysts do, they they get in the middle of other ingredients and make them work. And much of what we talked about in this conference was was how to do that. The the word that we kept hearing again and again and again was outreach, a way of getting the university fully implicated in the community. And and then the second theme that we heard was this should occur at at at all levels, that once again, the whole of the university needs needs to do this.
[00:38:29] Randall Roth: And then thirdly, the the the idea of a catalyst is is to take those things that the university does well anyway, and and we we needn't need not to neglect that in in this conversation. Land Grant universities have always been out there trying to create science and convert it into technology, trying to create an educated labor force etc. And and and as we do these things, once again, we can't assume that often we do them off on the campus but that we do them throughout the community. So our notion of of the university as a catalyst, if there's something new that that we should begin to do, it's rediscover, renew and recommit ourselves to to being in the community to to make these things happen.
[00:39:13] Caller: Bob, any thoughts on that?
[00:39:15] C. Barry Raleigh: No, I do agree with with the Dean. I think that you know, I think all three of of your panelists are Randy are right on the money. I mean, not because I agree with it, but I think that the Dean is is correct. I think that it's more of a cooperative effort on behalf of the community and all segments, government, private sector, and the university. And I think if if the state moves in this direction for the future, and it's not going to be easy because we have immediate economic concerns but on a long-range standpoint, I think it would be excellent and Dean, I'd be happy to offer any you know, small assistance in your efforts.
[00:40:00] Randall Roth: Be on the phone tomorrow, Bob.
[00:40:02] Caller: Thank you, Bob.
[00:40:03] C. Barry Raleigh: Thanks, Randy.
[00:40:04] Randall Roth: Our lines are full, but we're going to get to everybody.
[00:40:06] Caller: Let's go to Steve from Ole, Ili. Good morning, Steve. Good morning. Three quick points and maybe I should qualify or or reveal my cards by saying I've been at the university for 30 years and I run a center up there and we get 90% of our funding outside of the state of Hawaii. So we bring in about 90% of our funding from outside sources. And the three things that strike me about the university and economic development are really all related to the same thing, the need for autonomy. I want to 100% emphasize that and and support what's been said here about the need for autonomy because first of all, it's fairly evident that the lip service notwithstanding, the elite of the state of Hawaii, that small group of people who are really movers and shakers, do not support the university nearly as much as with their deeds as they do with their words.
[00:40:54] Caller: Otherwise, we couldn't explain the reason the university is so poorly funded in relative terms to other state universities and has been for some years and it's been declining. The second thing is that I think one of the reasons the elites in in Hawaii, in fact, have this attitude is first of all, they themselves, their own children don't have to go here. They've got enough money they can send them to Yale and Columbia and so the University of Hawaii is largely seen as for the people of Hawaii and the elites generally, I don't think think of the people of Hawaii something they have to worry much about except as a pool of exploited labor. The next thing is I think that the elites find the University of Hawaii recalcitrant and they don't understand a phenomenon I think that everybody must understand.
[00:41:35] Caller: Universities are in a place, but frequently they're not of a place. Most great universities in the world are part of a world system of great universities. They relate as much to each other as they do their local environment. But I think the attitude in the legislature and the government of Hawaii has been they want a state university of Hawaii that that they can bring to heel and that that will behave the way they wanted to and will win a few ball games. And they don't understand that if they go to London or Paris or or New York or any place, they look at the faculties of these universities, they don't look like London, Paris and New York, they look like the world.
[00:42:08] Caller: And the University of Hawaii's got to look like the world if it's going to be global, and it's not going to reflect these local concerns. My last very quick point is, I don't think the superstar analogy works. I think it's a sports metaphor which is we have a lot of sports metaphors unfortunately in the state government and it works great for for football teams, it doesn't work for universities. Superstars have a tendency to come in, suck up a lot of money, hang their hat for a few years, they're mainly interested in their own careers and they move on. We need to invest at the basic level. We need to hire good young faculty and retain them and have them identify their careers with the university and build the institution.
[00:42:40] Caller: And that's the only way of doing it. It's not a quick fix and that's why the politicals don't like it.
[00:42:44] Randall Roth: Okay, you've made your points very well. Unfortunately, we don't have a whole lot of time and I've got folks on the line so I'm going to move on, but I I appreciate your putting all of that on the table. Uh guests in the studio, I know you're making notes. If you want to make some comments based on anything Steve has said, we'll do it in a bit, but I want to get to some more people on the phone. And in fact, we have Lieutenant Governor Mazie Hirono, who just called up. So I hope the others will forgive me, but I'm going to go out of order to the Lieutenant Governor.
[00:43:09] Caller: Good morning, Mazie. Good morning.
[00:43:11] Randall Roth: What do you have to say for us this morning?
[00:43:13] Caller: Couple of things. I'm very glad that all three are gentlemen who I I have worked with over the years are are talking about the university as a catalyst for economic change. And this is just what we need. I really think this is an exciting and challenging time for the university. A lot of us have been talking about autonomy and the need for the university to really be a part of the economic life of this community for many years. But I truly sense a a willingness and a movement on the part of not just the people at the university, but particularly people on the outside. And Barry mentioned that President Mortimer and I will be going to talk to the Business Roundtable next week.
[00:43:54] Caller: And this really is a follow-up to the report of the science and technology task force, which Barry sat on by the way. And we need to get to some practical next steps such as there are models that other universities use where they have institutionalized mechanisms where the business community and the research community of the university work together and what we call technology transfer and commercialization of research. That is the kind of mechanism we now need to move to creating and that's what President Mortimer and I are going to go and talk with the Business Roundtable about. In addition, I think this is also a tremendous time for us to tout the university as a place where there are many areas of excellence, especially in the ocean sciences, astronomy, bio technology.
[00:44:42] Caller: And as it turns out that the university is going to embark in the first ever concerted endowment drive for the next over the next five years to raise a minimum of $100 million. And Dean mentioned that a lot of state funded universities are moving toward that kind of economic sustainment. I think that is really good. That's part of what I envision as autonomy. That we need to provide and really push for the private sector businesses, individuals to endow the University of Hawaii in a big, big way. Now, the universities are doing it, we're a little late getting in there but, you know, I'm very excited about that aspect of where the University of Hawaii is moving.
[00:45:26] Randall Roth: Okay, Mazie, I really appreciate your calling up this morning and and sharing your thoughts with us.
[00:45:30] Caller: Not at all. It's a pleasure.
[00:45:32] Randall Roth: Barry Rolly, did you have a reaction? As as I was listening to Mazie just now, I'm thinking, who in the world is going to give money if they think it's going to simply replace a dollar that otherwise would have been there, uh which I guess is tied to her comment that autonomy is important, Barry?
[00:45:46] C. Barry Raleigh: That that was my comment uh to be my comment, namely that uh I believe the Governor at one point has said that if we get an endowment that generates let's say an income of $100,000 a year that the state will match it. That's a wonderful leveraging incentive to people to give money.
[00:46:02] Randall Roth: Well, there was a bill along a little bit different, but uh they they can change their minds after the fact.
[00:46:08] Dean Neubauer: What was one 161 uh would have solved a lot of the current problems that we have too, but that that had a different fate.
[00:46:14] Randall Roth: And that was a law that basically said they wouldn't give less than X dollars, but as soon as the economy turned, uh we're well below that line. Well, we're going to get to everybody who's been patiently waiting.
[00:46:24] Caller: Let's go to Franklin from Saint Louis. Good morning, Franklin. Aloha. Thank you, Randy, for your wonderful work. One a couple of comments and I'll I'll hang up just to have a feed feedback on it. Well, one is kind of a playful suggestion or or it could work out if we worked it out. They they're the students all are and uh what about uh fundraising 101 required course. Everybody has to take it and the grades are based on the the the the funds they bring in at the end of the year semester. Number two idea. What do they think, what do your guest think about University of Phoenix that that one that is of uh on the computers?
[00:47:17] Caller: And number three is about um well I'll I'll leave it at there. Okay. Aloha.
[00:47:24] Randall Roth: Aloha Franklin.
[00:47:25] Dean Neubauer: Uh quick reactions because we've got some people who've been waiting and I want to get to them Dean Newbar. Uh Franklin, I'd like to uh just comment on your first suggestion, playful. Uh maybe not fundraising 101, but certainly uh internships, uh getting students in the community as part of their learning environment is where um most universities are going. Secondly, uh University of Phoenix, uh largest uh private university in the United States today growing at a rate of about 6,000 students a year, uh obviously the wave of the future. If we don't uh wake up to what those uh phenomena are, um it's going to be hard on us. Distance education is uh something that UH has come late to the dance too. Uh, it's exploding on the mainland and we simply have to be aware of uh of what these these changes are which are occurring in uh in the way universities uh deliver their uh their learning product.
[00:48:17] Randall Roth: And I guess it relates back to this autonomy thing because uh I know I've been a member of different conversations where there would be an obvious need and by the time University of Hawaii got around to being able to address it, HPU or the University of Phoenix or or some organization that can move much more quickly had already taken advantage of that opportunity. Let's go to Francis on Oahu. Good morning, Francis.
[00:48:39] Caller: Uh yes, uh thanks for taking my call. I've been in Hawaii nine years now, one observation that I think is very important is that we need a uh two party system uh autonomy in balance is uh exactly what it should be. But uh, the university does depend on the state and it's not a matter of who's the uh Black heads and who's the White heads uh either party, but uh a two party system would do an awful lot to stimulate the legislature to uh do things for the university that should be done. I'll leave it at that and you can comment on it.
[00:49:14] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, Francis, thank you for your your comment and I'm going to take our last caller, so we sure have him, and then we're going to have a little bit of time to uh listen to the guests in the in the studio talk about what we've all been listening to.
[00:49:25] Caller: Jim on Maui. Good morning. Good morning, sir. Uh I've been listening to your show and uh thoughts come to mind. Uh first of all, the notion of autonomy uh and and and when I think of that, I think of our constitution that provides uh equal access to education. I believe this is why state constitution and it seems to indicate that public education really is for poor people to improve the quality of their life, not simply a mission to stimulate our economy. I and a specific example would be here on Maui, MCC. Uh, in the early 90s, there was uh changes to how the library was operated, the university library, which increased costs for non-students, the costs of uh adult education.
[00:50:15] Caller: All of these types of things, as they increase, they put out of reach education to the poor. And to me, I think the focus ignores of your show today ignores the fundamental mission I believe of education, which is the quality of life.
[00:50:34] Randall Roth: All right. Thank you very much.
[00:50:36] Caller: Jim, thank you for your call.
[00:50:37] Randall Roth: Well, we're down to about nine minutes and there've been a lot of very provocative things said over the last 50 minutes and I'm wondering uh let's just go around the room and I'll give you another crack at a closing comment in a bit, but real quickly, Barry Rolly, any uh specific things that you've been listening to that need a response from you?
[00:50:56] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh autonomy is an interesting term. We uh I used to be the director of a research institute of Columbia, and there was no net flow of cash to the institute or to the university. We had great autonomy. In other words, if you don't cost anybody anything, they're going to give you a lot of freedom. So I do think there's a correlation between the state share of funding for the university, or inverse correlation between the state funding for the university and the degree of autonomy that we get.
[00:51:27] Randall Roth: I know you and I were seated around a lunch table yesterday and and people were trying to outdo one another with stories of just how bad the bureaucracy is at the University of Hawaii. In in 10 seconds, can you get across to our listeners just how bad it is?
[00:51:42] C. Barry Raleigh: Uh not in polite language.
[00:51:44] Randall Roth: But I think These these stories were wild, by the way, almost unbelievable.
[00:51:49] C. Barry Raleigh: There are some extraordinary things that happen. The university is so risk averse that it's we have continuing audits going on of every unit to make sure that we don't do something that might get someone somewhere in difficulties.
[00:52:02] Randall Roth: And then we start auditing the auditors.
[00:52:05] C. Barry Raleigh: Exactly and I I I think that level of micromanagement and interference are really from the frankly from the legislature and the Board of Regents are are the sources of of the problem.
[00:52:18] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Stanley Kauaguchi. Yeah, Randy, thanks. I think uh I'd like to address this issue of of of feeling an attitude of change. I think that's important and and I'll tell you what's encouraging to me is that we hear from Bob Toyofuku who's who's an active lobbyist in the legislature. We hear from Lieutenant Governor Mazie Hirono, who is one of our political leaders and they're talking the same thing that we're talking about. So I think what we're seeing is a shift in thinking, the paradigm shift that I referred to earlier. People are beginning to think differently, they hopefully the end result is that they will view the university differently. Um and I'll tell you what, the other comment that people made that, well, you know, the the elite are pushing this or they're not doing this and so forth or that there's a conspiracy.
[00:53:06] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: I dealt a lot with the legislature. I've dealt a lot with the political system as well, although I'm an engineer, and I will tell you this is that if people start to get involved and voice their views, changes will come. But they've got to get out there and start voicing their views. They cannot sit back and just expect others to do it, then you will get a small few doing it for you.
[00:53:28] Randall Roth: You and I are members of of a group called the University Community Partnership Committee. And one of our themes is that the university has to reach out and help the wider community understand what the university is all about and how it can serve the wider community.
[00:53:45] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Absolutely and that's with the blessing of President Mortimer, what's happened there's a committee formed, consisting of people from the faculty, the Manoa community as well as people from what we referred to in the committee as the downtown community. Some some people refer to as town and gown. And what we're trying to do is re-establish the connection between the Manoa or I really should say the university system community and the community at large. That there must has to be a realization of what the university has done, what the university is doing and what the university is capable of doing. And that gets back to Jim's comment about quality of life because it's not just technical research.
[00:54:21] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: It is a total package. It's a quality of life issue that drives us into this global market and makes life a lot better.
[00:54:29] Dean Neubauer: Dean Newbar, any thoughts about what you've been listening to? Yes, I'd like to comment on Jim's uh uh points about quality of life and access to education. The University of Hawaii uh over the last 35 years has uh in many ways helped to transform the society of Hawaii. It expanded uh enormously during the 1960s, uh almost a thousand percent if that's even imaginable. The uh contract the first contraction began early in the 1970s, coincident with a uh a budget crisis in 1971. And since then, uh there's been an up down in in state spending. Uh, Jack Burn's notion of the university is that uh by this expansion, this this new state uh undergoing significant growth would provide this opportunity for Hawaii's children who could not go to the mainland uh to better their lives.
[00:55:20] Dean Neubauer: Uh, Dick Osaki, one of my political science department colleagues was very instrumental in creating uh, and a graduate of our university, was instrumental in uh creating the community colleges of uh of of Hawaii to extend that uh that that opportunity and these now exist within this University of Hawaii system. Two things have happened. One, uh as I pointed out earlier, the student proportion of the cost of education, which is still quite small uh in relative terms, has increased. Uh, secondly, uh that is um uh has been made uh less of an increase within the uh the low the community colleges uh level than it has through through uh the research campus, Manoa. The third thing that's happened as as a reform within the university is that uh the the campus is now uh hang under their own tuition, so that they have a capacity to uh to do things with their tuition income that they didn't have before.
[00:56:17] Dean Neubauer: I'll I'll bypass the uh the other autonomy issue.
[00:56:21] Randall Roth: Okay. We're down to the last couple of minutes. Uh, Barry Rolly, Dean of the School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology, sometimes referred to as Soest. You've got just uh less than a minute to give us a closing thought or two.
[00:56:34] C. Barry Raleigh: Well, we're talking and uh over the next year or two while we continue to talk, the rest of the world is moving along. And technology, high-tech industry is the most rapidly developing sector of our economy. If we don't get started now, I think uh we will end up uh where we are now, basically uh poor.
[00:56:54] Randall Roth: Barry, I think yesterday somebody said our motto is ready, aim, aim, aim, aim, aim. etc.
[00:57:01] C. Barry Raleigh: Exactly. We uh we need leadership, and we need to make sure that this dialogue results in some action.
[00:57:08] Randall Roth: Okay. Stanley Kawaguchi.
[00:57:10] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: Yeah, a message for the people of Hawaii, just like I said this morning's paper. Imagine the University of Hawaii as our next new major industry in the state of Hawaii.
[00:57:20] C. Barry Raleigh: Mhm. In addition to a catalyst.
[00:57:22] Stanley K. Kawaguchi: In addition to the catalyst. Yeah.
[00:57:23] C. Barry Raleigh: All right. I like that. Dean Neubaer, you got about 30 seconds to uh put a cap on this.
[00:57:28] Dean Neubauer: Well, uh the conversation has to happen. Change doesn't happen without the conversation. I'd like the conversation to be as broad as possible, that it's a conversation between the community and the university, and that uh action, as as Barry indicates, is a consequence, but it's action across a wide range of fronts.
[00:57:45] C. Barry Raleigh: Okay. Well, you've been listening to uh Dean Neubaer, who's a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, who also teaches in the area of public health, sociology, business, public administration. He's been at the University of Hawaii for 28 years. Barry Raleigh, who is the Dean of the School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology and Stan Kawaguchi, a 1963 graduate of the University of Hawaii who is a vice president with Parsons, Brinkerhoff, Quade, and Douglas, which is the oldest continuing consulting engineering firm in the United States. The producer of the Price of Paradise radio show is Suzy Roth, the um um what should we call you, Jeff? Our technical wizard. He was the director of operations at public radio for some time. Right now, he's our technical wizard, Jeff Elardi. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.