Do we have "too much" government?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1993-08-01
Guests: George Mason (columnist, Pacific Business News); Dolores Foley (Professor, University of Hawaii)
Duration: 0:34:19

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: paradise today, are George Mason and Dolores Foley. George is the founder and now editorial page editor of Pacific Business News, and Dolores is a professor of public administration at the University of Hawaii Manoa. Dolores, is government in Hawaii too big?
[00:00:17] Dolores Foley: Well, Randy, you know, I think this is the wrong question. I think it focuses on the wrong issue. We should be concerned with what government is doing and how government is doing it. Is government doing the right things right, rather than the size.
[00:00:31] Randall Roth: Can I at least ask how big is government in Hawaii?
[00:00:35] Dolores Foley: Well, we do have a high proportion of government workers. Uh, we're above the national average, but there are still 19 states that have more government workers per capita.
[00:00:46] Randall Roth: Are we getting more and more government workers all the time or are we leveled off on that?
[00:00:51] Dolores Foley: Well, we are. We are increasing in the number of government workers. We have increased over the last decade.
[00:00:58] Randall Roth: Can I amplify on that? George Mason, take it away.
[00:01:01] George Mason: Um, in February 1990, there were 103,300 people working for government federal, state, and local. In February 1993, there were 114,200. That increase of 10,900 was all state employees. That's a 10.6% increase in 3 years, and the private sector went from 417,500 to 422,900 for a total increase of 5,400 jobs, 1.3% increase in private sector employment in the whole state.
[00:01:37] Randall Roth: What do those numbers mean?
[00:01:39] George Mason: That government has been increasing at a rate about 10 times that of the private sector, not just in recent years, but since 1970.
[00:01:49] Randall Roth: Dolores, does this mean that eventually everyone is going to work for the government in Hawaii?
[00:01:54] Dolores Foley: Well, one of the things it means I think in terms of, in terms of looking at, why has government grown so big? One of the reasons why is because we demand much more.
[00:02:03] Randall Roth: Who's we?
[00:02:04] Dolores Foley: We, the citizens, and we as business. I mean business always talks about government interfering, but every time you turn around, they're always asking for government protection at one thing or another or incentives or or helping.
[00:02:18] Randall Roth: Is that true, George?
[00:02:19] George Mason: Yeah, well, Are you one of the bad guys here? No, I'm not one of the bad guys. I want less government. I've been preaching for less government for a long time. You know, what you got to do is find out where the pressure points are. Uh, we always blame the politicians, but I don't blame the politicians. The politicians rely on, um, uh, bureaucrats with vested interests to, um, provide all their information, background, and arguments pro and con.
[00:02:47] George Mason: Um, and where does the pressure really come from? Most of the pressure for the last 15 to 20 years has come from private sector unions, the Hawaii, I mean, public sector unions. The Hawaii Government Employees Association, the UPW, the National Education Association, Hawaii Federation of Teachers, go on and on, plus construction unions. This is where all the pressure is. These are the people who can who can round up campaign workers and campaign contributions, uh, and they are the ones to whom, uh, politicians are really beholden and there is no question about that.
[00:03:25] Randall Roth: So you're thinking in terms of growth in government, the primary explanation is the strength of government worker unions in Hawaii?
[00:03:32] George Mason: There's no question about it.
[00:03:33] Randall Roth: Dolores, is there a question about that?
[00:03:35] Dolores Foley: Well, I agree with one part that most of the demands come from the private sector, but not just the unions. I think all of us are guilty of this. I think citizens are constantly demanding more and more. And as I said before, even business, but every time I'm in a conversation I think, well, they need to do this and they need to do that. I always have to come back, who is they?
[00:03:54] George Mason: Hey, I I I don't differ with you fundamentally, except in terms of identifying who we are. The fact of the matter is that last November, Hawaii had the lowest turnout of people eligible to vote, 43%. No state in the nation was that low. It's getting lower all over the country. And when you take a look at somebody who got 54% of the vote, they probably got the equivalent of 25 or 26% of the people eligible to vote. We're not turning out voters and the most guilty people are your students up at the University of Hawaii. The young people simply do not vote.
[00:04:35] Randall Roth: Both of you are getting on me, uh, today. I better jump jump in here. Uh, George, why would it be particularly bad in Hawaii? Why would our voter turnout rate be lower here than any other state in the nation?
[00:04:47] George Mason: I don't know. I don't think anyone has really analyzed it, but I'll tell you something, I think people are just getting fed up and they feel it's hopeless. They feel that, uh, the the the ends are in so tight and, uh, so much nonsense is going on in government, they've just sort of given up. I've talked to some people who say, what's the use of voting? It's all predetermined, it's all a setup. Uh, the attitude here is getting to be very unhealthy.
[00:05:17] Randall Roth: Dolores, I I know you've written someplace, I I've I've read um, uh, you say that democracy means paying attention. Are are we paying attention?
[00:05:26] Dolores Foley: No, I don't think we are. I don't think we take responsibility. I think part of what George is saying is that there is a lot of cynicism, but the only way that's going to change it is if the citizens decide to take back.
[00:05:41] Randall Roth: What what will precipitate that? How will that come about?
[00:05:46] Dolores Foley: Well, I think it's going to mean that people at the grassroots have to start paying attention, have to start saying what what's right, and not not constantly being looking at government to say, are they providing the services but working more in partnership, being a much more powerful interest group.
[00:06:05] Randall Roth: And maybe being more realistic, not not demanding as much. You were saying earlier, government is big because we demand that it do certain things.
[00:06:12] Dolores Foley: Well, I think as a community, we have to start looking at all the multitude of demands that come in and try and begin to forge some kind of consensus because all of us want something, and we may not think the other group is interests are valid. So if you look at, um, developers, they say, you know, the process needs to be speeded up. Well, and very good arguments along those lines, but another group will argue very convincingly as well.
[00:06:39] Randall Roth: What other group might argue that?
[00:06:40] Dolores Foley: Well, environmentalists, or the group that it's going to be in their backyard. And rather than people just pointing the fingers and and then put pointing to the government that they have to solve it, that we have to work more as a community, I think to try and develop what where we want to go.
[00:06:57] George Mason: You know, there's there's another factor here. Uh, we have a one party system, I mean totally one party, which is what Hawaii had the other party, uh, back, you know, World War II time.
[00:07:09] Randall Roth: Was it a problem when it was the other party?
[00:07:10] George Mason: Oh, of course it was. Of course it was. It doesn't matter what party, once you have total control. When I was in government, we had a a Republican Senate and a Democrat House. Okay? Mhm. It was one of the healthiest times in the history of Hawaii.
[00:07:27] Randall Roth: Interesting.
[00:07:28] George Mason: There was balance. There was balance. Now, it's totally one party. There's no balance, there's no loyal opposition to speak of. And that's what that's what's at the root of this.
[00:07:40] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are George Mason, editorial page editor of the Pacific Business News, and Dolores Foley, UH professor of public administration. Dolores, earlier you were saying, uh, the question whether government is too big is is not the right question. What question should we be asking?
[00:08:00] Dolores Foley: Well, our, is government doing the right things right? What what should we be doing? And and what are they doing it? What are the outcomes? What are the outputs?
[00:08:10] Randall Roth: Are they doing a good job?
[00:08:11] Dolores Foley: I we don't know. We don't
[00:08:13] Randall Roth: How can we not know whether or not government in Hawaii is doing a good job?
[00:08:18] Dolores Foley: We evaluate the wrong things. We constantly say how many how many employees there are, how many people come through the door, we how many teachers there are, not did anyone get educated, not how many people got off welfare, but how many people are served.
[00:08:34] George Mason: Oh, good point. I agree with you completely. In government, process is everything, product is nothing. In the private sector, it's the product that counts and the process is designed to get the product on the market as fast as possible, whatever the service or product may be. And it's just the opposite in government. Everything is process, and if you go through some government offices and see the inane things that go on, the fact that you can't get a check cashed by the tax office, you send it in, and 1 month later, it's finally deposited, IRS does it day of receipt.
[00:09:11] George Mason: And 23 years ago, the legislative auditor told the tax office, the state tax office, follow the federal way and get your money deposited. 23 years later, they're still doing the same thing that the legislative auditor criticized.
[00:09:28] Randall Roth: Dolores, is it realistic to suggest that government function the way a business would function?
[00:09:34] Dolores Foley: No, I mean, I agree with George on these other matters. But one of the things that he's often talked about, he looks at efficiency. Well, the problem is in government, there are a lot of other values that we judge it by. One of it is effectiveness. And you can't constantly be saying it's not doing it efficiently when you're looking at a number of other things like equity and effectiveness. And one of the problems, I agree there is far too much emphasis on process. But one of the reasons for that is that we don't like things to be different from the last time it was done, so it builds up standardization and paperwork and paperwork.
[00:10:10] Dolores Foley: So if we begin to ask for flexibility, we have to also question are we willing to give up some of those other things that that citizens have demanded of government.
[00:10:19] Randall Roth: So you're agreeing with George that that government is not efficient. Correct? Correct. So what do we do about that? Can government become efficient, or do we take what government is doing where possible, and give it to the private sector?
[00:10:35] Dolores Foley: I think government can be more efficient. I, but I also think you also have to constantly be looking at the fact that we're asking it to be other things as well, equitable, effective, and that I think a number of things could be privatized, but I don't think that's a panacea. I don't think privatization is the end of all of our woes in this regard.
[00:10:57] Randall Roth: How how do we get government to be more efficient? Let's assume that government is doing a good job in providing equity, for example. How do we get it to be more efficient without doing damage to what it's doing well?
[00:11:11] Dolores Foley: Well, I think one of the things is as as you know, I I teach a number of public administrators, and they're often hamstrung. They can't do their job better because of all the restrictions and regulations that are piled on them.
[00:11:26] Randall Roth: Who who should change that? Whose responsibility is it to untangle that?
[00:11:31] Dolores Foley: Well, it it is obviously has to come from the top in a governmental reform effort, but it's also something that that we're all going to have to be involved with in some way and asking for that kind of reform. It's going to mean fundamental reform.
[00:11:48] Randall Roth: George, what do you think about uh government's role in in providing everything that it's providing? I know you've written a lot about privatization. What before we get to what should be privatized, what is it that government has to do that it cannot give to the private sector?
[00:12:04] George Mason: Oh, a lot of things. I I'm not sure I'd want to see the National Guard privatized. I'm not sure I'd I'd want uh to see certain functions. I think maybe um there still ought to be a tax office, but after 90 days, the uh uncollected taxes ought to be turned over to uh private tax collection agencies that would have something to gain from it. I mean the the the delinquent taxes in this state are are horrendous and uh nothing is really done.
[00:12:35] Randall Roth: You you we we've used the term privatization. What does that mean and and can you give us an example or two other than what you've already given?
[00:12:44] George Mason: Well, it means a lot of things. I attended a privatization conference uh earlier this year, and uh the county uh people and city people that were there, about 300 of them, all gave me one answer. I said, why are you here? And they said, we're out of money. And uh so they're trying to turn as many things over to the private sector as possible. Uh, a lot of prisons have been built and are managed by uh the private sector, and in the Northeast, there are total private toll roads. I could go on and on, I don't want to take a lot of time with that.
[00:13:17] George Mason: A very recent local example was that Steve Yamashiro, the mayor of the Big Island and the County Council, um, voted to give a contract for a new landfill on the Kona Coast to a waste management company.
[00:13:34] Randall Roth: How how did the government workers react to that?
[00:13:38] George Mason: The government workers would love it. As a matter of fact, I've I've talked to their representatives, the government workers would still remain as a member of the UPW. As a matter of fact, all of waste management's uh employees are members of the UPW, but they work for a privately managed firm. So the company is perfectly willing to negotiate with Gary Rodrigues and his union, but Gary has taken this thing to court. And there's some um public here What's the What's he arguing? What's What's he arguing? What's What's
[00:14:12] George Mason: You see, the arguments are specious. The reason is he loses power. As long as he can influence politicians, he doesn't have to worry about negotiating with the workers, he negotiates with the politicians. He has leverage. He doesn't have the same kind of leverage with the private firm. That's just one example.
[00:14:36] Randall Roth: I see. And and there are a lot of cases of successful privatization throughout this country. And and it's going to come to Hawaii, and I'll tell you why, because we're going to run out of money. Dolores, is privatization part of the solution as you see it?
[00:14:54] Dolores Foley: Well, I think it is part. I think I think we have to be careful because I think we there are a number of functions that shouldn't be privatized. And I think in many places, one of the things they've done is actually had government and private sector bid. Very often they have found that the private sector isn't more cost-effective.
[00:15:14] Dolores Foley: So you have to be very careful about this, and and when we look at that and really go through each function and and who is best to serve this and and how that can happen. You're You're you're absolutely right. There are instances where the public employees have bid against uh uh uh private companies, and they've won. But you know why? Because they said, hey, we don't need this, we don't need that. We got too many supervisors, etcetera, and then they'll they'll win against private companies. There are some instances of that.
[00:15:45] Dolores Foley: And there are also instances of after having gone out to the private sector, they have found out that it wasn't it wasn't more cost-effective so they've gone back to to public agencies.
[00:15:56] George Mason: I I can agree if you do accurate cost accounting. It it uh sometimes works out to have government do it, but in in the majority of cases, the private sector can do it for less.
[00:16:08] Randall Roth: You you mentioned cost accounting. I read once that prisons recently built in Hawaii cost something like $500,000 per cell, per bed, uh per person who's intended to be in that facility. George, is that anywhere near being accurate and if so, how does that compare to the mainland?
[00:16:28] George Mason: Uh, that's uh uh Windward Project, um, a boys home or something like that, came out to I think $550,000 per bed. On the mainland, it runs from as low as 50,000 up to 100,000 or so per bed.
[00:16:47] Randall Roth: Why the difference? Is that just land cost?
[00:16:49] George Mason: Oh, I think there's a lot more than that. I think everything in Hawaii costs more, not just the state capitol.
[00:16:58] Randall Roth: Where where do we go from here? If if uh Dolores, if if you were uh in charge of things. You were the governor and the legislature rolled into one. What's the first thing that you would do in an attempt to uh make government as equitable and as efficient and uh as everything that's good, as you could possibly make it?
[00:17:19] Dolores Foley: One of the things I would really turn it around from focusing on the inputs to focusing on outcomes. For So that means looking at performance, looking at results. So in you know, looking at different in some cases, it's difficult to measure results when we're dealing with the public sector. But not just do we have the right equipment and the right people to do it, but are the things getting done?
[00:17:43] Randall Roth: Who would set that tone? Who would say start measuring outputs?
[00:17:49] Dolores Foley: Well, as they say, I mean, it means that we, it's not just something we could add on. In terms of looking at all the incentives, all the regulations and now are all geared to inputs. So we would have to change that. So, a number of states have. I mean, looking at Oregon that talks about benchmarks, Minnesota, Texas, but it means changing the way you look at government. So you really you really have to bring a bring about looking at the results, and we don't look at results now.
[00:18:21] Randall Roth: And and when you say we, you're talking about everyone, the community, as well as the bureaucrats, as well as the politicians.
[00:18:28] Dolores Foley: Yeah, because I think our pressure is on how, you know, did they follow the right rules? Did they do the right regulations? Instead of, was it the right thing to do? Did it did it make the job better? And so we don't focus on on the end product.
[00:18:46] George Mason: Oh, absolutely. It's all process and no product. You're absolutely right.
[00:18:51] Randall Roth: You're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are George Mason, editorial page editor of the Pacific Business News, and Dolores Foley.
[00:19:00] Speaker 1: Each professor of public administration. George, a little bit ago, you said that Hawaii, at least the state government, is going to run out of money. What did you mean by that?
[00:19:12] George Mason: Because they're all arrest of us are running out of money and we're going to put an end to the excessive taxation load that we carry. We have a terrible tax burden there.
[00:19:22] Speaker 1: Is it a lot higher than elsewhere?
[00:19:24] George Mason: Well, at least uh 25-30% more than most places, I know. You see this 4% excise taxes the way it pyramids, it's really closer to 12%. I mean, it has a terrible impact on lower income people. It's disproportionate.
[00:19:42] Speaker 1: But Dolores, I assume, you would say it it has to be high if government's going to provide all the things that we, the voters, demand that it provide?
[00:19:51] Dolores Foley: Yes, I think one of the crucial things that have to happen is that as a community we have to begin to take more ownership and, and not just demand. And as a taxpayer, say, this is what needs to be delivered. We're always going to be unhappy. It's never going to be enough that way.
[00:20:09] Speaker 1: I'm sitting here agreeing with you but wondering, how do I do that? Other than to sit here and nod, how do I do that?
[00:20:17] Dolores Foley: Well, you have, you have to get involved. And one of the things, one of the things, we do have to have a higher voter turnout. But we, neighborhood boards, there's all, there's so many different levels, public hearings and that, where if you look at, what what's the attendance? It's, it could be a lot, it should be a lot higher. We can't constantly say, they're not doing it and then just put another demand or criticism without getting involved. When I frequently say this to people and say, well, you know, I I've got too much on my plate now.
[00:20:51] Dolores Foley: I've got two, I'm carrying, with the job and all the other things, but it's not going to get better unless we do get involved with it.
[00:20:59] Speaker 1: Are things worse in Hawaii than elsewhere when it comes to, for example, government efficiency? George, that's something you've written about. Do you think it's worse here than elsewhere?
[00:21:10] George Mason: Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure you could find places where it's every bit as bad. Um, but they'd be few and far between.
[00:21:17] Speaker 1: Is it better here than elsewhere?
[00:21:19] George Mason: No.
[00:21:20] Speaker 1: Why, why wouldn't it be at least as, uh, as efficient for example as in the typical state elsewhere?
[00:21:27] George Mason: Because it's a closed shop.
[00:21:29] Speaker 1: You're talking about the unions again.
[00:21:30] George Mason: I'm talking about the the unions, the the the one party dominance. Um, I'm talking about cronyism. Yeah.
[00:21:40] Speaker 1: What, what about centralization? I know in in the Price of Paradise book, Lowell Calapa said that we were the most highly centralized state in the Union.
[00:21:48] George Mason: Oh, absolutely.
[00:21:51] Dolores Foley: I think, you know, I think this is one of the problems. I mean, I think I agree with that. I mean, one of the things in terms of its, it's more difficult to get citizens involved when there's a greater distance. So one of, in one of a number of the places where things are getting a lot better, it's, it's been both the state and county have been pushing things down to the local level where it's easier for citizens to get involved.
[00:22:15] George Mason: Oh, I, I can't agree more with that. I mean, we have four governments in this entire state. State of California probably has 18 or 20,000 governments.
[00:22:26] Speaker 1: That, that, that doesn't sound too good to me.
[00:22:30] George Mason: No, that's, you know, that may be the other extreme. But, uh, we have one school board. There's no state in the nation that has one school board.
[00:22:39] Speaker 1: So you're suggesting that, um, if we had more than one school board, that our public schools would be better?
[00:22:44] George Mason: Yes, and I think maybe we ought to even have, uh, school taxing districts so that parents could really feel the pinch and understand what it costs.
[00:22:54] Speaker 1: What about schools being privatized, George? Is that something that government should consider or not?
[00:23:00] George Mason: Well, yeah, there are movements throughout the country to use a voucher system where people can use the voucher to send their children to any school they please, public or private, and, and what's happened where it's been tried is that, um, the parents will choose, either for convenience or whatever, certain schools. And the public schools that are inferior suddenly say, hey, we don't have enough money in these vouchers to pay all the teachers and so we better shape up. And it's, what it is, it's competition.
[00:23:36] Speaker 1: Is competition good, Dolores, when it comes to, uh, public schools?
[00:23:41] Dolores Foley: Well, I think, yeah, I think competition can be good. But although, one of a number of the systems where I've seen them go to a voucher system, there are some real problems with that. But there are also systems where they have gone for choice, so that you're choosing between public schools, which I think has more benefits and, and has to be, you have to look at it very carefully going to a pure voucher system.
[00:24:06] Speaker 1: As I understand, under a voucher system, the government would actually help pay for the education of someone going to Punahou or Iolani or whatever.
[00:24:14] George Mason: Let's, let's assume that it costs $5,400 a year to put a student through the public school system here. You would get a voucher for $5,400 to put your child through school. You could spend that at a public school or at Punahou or Iolani or wherever. And, uh, if you want to pay the difference between that 5,400 and what they charge, that's your business.
[00:24:40] Speaker 1: Dolores, do you think that there's anything to be said in favor of of a voucher system? You look skeptical.
[00:24:49] Dolores Foley: Well, I mean, I think there is, I think there's some dangers with that. What I'd rather move now towards really look trying to look at decentralizing, the school community based management system, I think does offer some some real benefits. And I, I think we should work within what we're trying to do there right now and see how see what we can bring about in terms of reform. Again, one of the things to make that successful, it's going to need, the parents are going to have to be involved in it.
[00:25:19] Speaker 1: George, earlier, I gave Dolores an opportunity to, uh, solve everything. I said that she was the governor and the legislature, etc. Uh, let's give you a crack at it. What would you do? Where do you start?
[00:25:29] George Mason: I'd, I'd probably do what, um, the Democrats and the ILWU did in the late 1940s. They went and routed up all of these kids who just came back from the war, and made politicians of them and got them stirred up on political issues. I attended the 1949 Democratic Convention at McKinley High School, and I'll tell you they were just a bunch of youngsters who later of course went through the ranks and became US Senators and, uh, and judges and Bishop Estate trustees and so on. But these youngsters, uh, ousted the Republican dynasty in 1954, very successfully, took over the government. They were very idealistic, and the problem is they've been there too long.
[00:26:18] George Mason: But you want, you want to, uh, raise a fuss, you want to change things, go right up to your university campus and get those young people stirred up and get them involved politically. They're not.
[00:26:32] Speaker 1: You want competition among the political parties as well as competition in providing services?
[00:26:37] George Mason: Absolutely, I think it's essential.
[00:26:39] Speaker 1: Dolores, is competition that important in terms of improving government?
[00:26:44] Dolores Foley: Well, I don't know I used the word competition, but I agree with George in terms of, we have to make people more politically active. We have to provide that for I think students do need to get wild up and, and involved in the system.
[00:26:58] Speaker 1: It sounds to me like, uh, is government too big? Is the wrong question, and we really don't know whether we're getting our money's worth or not, but we, as citizens, need to do a better job than we've been doing. Thank you, Dolores. Thank you, George. Our guest this week were George Mason of the Pacific Business News and Dolores Foley, UH Professor of Public Administration. For information about future programs, send a self-addressed stamped envelope to Hawaii Public Radio, 738 Kaka Street. That's 96814. We also would like to hear your thoughts about what we've said, or not said. These comments can be sent to Hawaii Public Radio or faxed to me at 9566402.
[00:27:40] Speaker 1: You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.

[00:27:50] Speaker 2: This program is produced by the Consortium of Price of Paradise authors in cooperation with Hawaii Public Radio. The Price of Paradise is of interest for every concerned citizen of Hawaii. It is available in local bookstores and in public libraries. Please tune in next week when Randall Roth, one of his 37 co-authors and a special guest will take on another question of importance to listeners in Hawaii. Cassette copies of this program are available from Hawaii Public Radio for $10 by calling 955-8821.