Abortion
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-08-11
Guests: Holly Born (Associate Director, Hawaii Right to Life); Eve Anderson (State Representative (R))
Duration: 1:00:41

[0:00:05] Randall Roth: Good morning. This is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise Radio show. Our goal is to generate lively and informed public conversations about the issues shaping the future of Hawaii. We're sponsored by the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that supports grassroots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and that manages charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. 23 years ago, the United States Supreme Court decided a case called Roe v. Wade, thereby establishing a woman's constitutional right to end a pregnancy by abortion. But that didn't end the controversy or the debate. People generally opposed to legalized abortion, so-called pro-lifers, continue to work toward change, with some success.
[0:00:49] Randall Roth: People on the other side of the issue, determined to protect a woman's right to choose abortion, worry that the Republican controlled Congress and even today's Supreme Court aren't particularly friendly to their cause. My guests today are Holly Bourne and Eve Anderson. Holly is the associate executive director of Hawaii Right to Life. She has been involved in the pro-life movement since college, before which she wasn't active on either side of the debate, but generally favored abortion rights. She is the education coordinator for the Catholic Diocese Respect Life Office, where her primary responsibility is teaching natural family planning with her husband. She has also counseled women in crisis pregnancies.
[0:01:33] Randall Roth: Eve Anderson was born and raised in Hawaii. She's a graduate of Punahou School and Mills College. She's been a Waimanalo resident for over 40 years, and she's active in community organizations, including board membership of Kapiolani Health Systems, the Waimanalo Health Center, and the Waimanalo Teen Center. She's a Republican representative from the 51st district, which includes Waimanalo, Lanikai, Kailua, Hills, the Bluffs, and parts of Kailua. Well Holly and Eve, good morning. Good morning, Randy. I hope you don't mind, but I would like to start with a rather odd request, if each of you could, as clearly as possible, and as fairly as possible, give me the heart of the others argument.
[0:02:23] Randall Roth: What is it that right to life as a position is all about?
[0:02:30] Eve Anderson: Well, I think just basically, the the pro-life members of society feel that life begins at conception. And I think that's their their main viewpoint that right when conception occurs the life is started and must be taken to term and and brought into this world.
[0:02:47] Randall Roth: And then everything else flows from that.
[0:02:49] Holly Born: Again, not saying whether you think Eve has it right or not. What do you think is the heart of of Eve and other pro-choicers position on this issue? The heart of their argument is that a woman has the right to her body and thus to choose whether to continue or terminate that pregnancy. That's that's probably as fairly as I can state it.
[0:03:10] Randall Roth: Do you feel that a woman does not have a right to make decisions that affect her own body?
[0:03:15] Holly Born: I think a woman does have a right to make decisions that affect her own body, but we're not just talking about her body here, we're talking about the life of a child as well.
[0:03:24] Randall Roth: Eve, what do you think? Is it is that the heart of of pro-choice that a woman has the right to make decisions that affect her own body?
[0:03:34] Eve Anderson: Well, I think she does. She's the one that that will give birth to the child and then must raise it for the next 18, 20, 25 years. So, there's a major responsibility. And if a woman truly, for whatever reasons, cannot go through with a pregnancy, hopefully, we would have educated they would have been some choices before that point, but we know reality that doesn't always happen.
[0:03:56] Randall Roth: Now, reading your article in this morning's advertiser, I got the impression that that you do feel that a woman should have the ability to make this choice because it does affect her body, but I also got the distinct impression that you feel that that I'll I'll say that child inside has a right to be wanted and has a right to a decent life, and that somehow, um, not giving the mother the option of abortion violates that child's right when they come out unwanted?
[0:04:26] Eve Anderson: Well, the tragedies that we see all around us, when a child arrives in this world and can't be cared for. I mean with there's examples are everywhere. Now, and community is not stepping forth to step in, and government is not stepping forth, and so what I'm I mean I would hope that we're all pro-life, but I like to see one also consider a quality of life and responsibility. Um, and I also think that if someone is a mother is or a woman is forced into a pregnancy that she dislikes intensely, can't handle for whatever reason, uh, I'm not sure that doesn't affect the fetus.
[0:05:01] Eve Anderson: I mean we don't know that yet, but I I truly believe it does.
[0:05:04] Randall Roth: Okay, I know Holly, in your piece, you said that you recognize that that people who are pro-choice uh don't like abortion. It's not as though they're happy when there are lots of of abortions. Um, so probably everyone, if not everyone, almost everyone, uh finds abortion basically distasteful, but isn't there some legitimacy to people's argument that that this is really a moral issue um and that it shouldn't be a a political issue that government shouldn't be brought into this moral issue?
[0:05:35] Holly Born: There are many things that the government does that fall into both camps, um, murder, stealing, uh, it's it has to do with infringing on other people's rights. And again, abortion falls into that camp, it infringes on the rights of a child. And referring to Eve's remark, I I have to, you know, agree that I wish every child were wanted. Um, and I do think though that every child is wanted by someone. And it's a personal responsibility issue if they if they have sex, they understand that the consequence might be pregnancy, and with two million couples waiting to adopt, the responsibility lies on the woman to to have that child and place the child for adoption.
[0:06:13] Randall Roth: So you're agreeing with Eve that that child has a right to be wanted etc, but you see adoption as the answer as opposed to legalized abortion.
[0:06:22] Holly Born: Right. And the right to life supersedes the right to be wanted.
[0:06:26] Eve Anderson: No, I just have a a point on that wanting, I mean, adoption, we've got children babies in our hospitals now, uh that can't be that aren't adopted, nobody wants them because they have medical problems, they're either drug abuse, alcohol abuse, whatever. Uh you look on the news the news in the evening news, they'll say these children are looking for a home, they've been bounced around through foster homes and and not every child is adoptable.
[0:06:48] Holly Born: That's so true. And I but I think that the problem is with our system because there are waiting lists for AIDS babies and babies that have severe deformities, um the waiting lists are numerous and and long. So the problem is with the system and not with having finding people to adopt these children.
[0:07:05] Randall Roth: Let me get back to the basic question of of whether or not there should be a right to abortion. Eve, you're basically pro-choice. Are are there any lines that should be drawn? Should women under any circumstances, at any time of the pregnancy be entitled to uh make that choice? Um and if not, what sorts of restrictions should there be?
[0:07:25] Eve Anderson: Now, my feeling is that if a woman is going to have to have an abortion for whatever reason that she's she has, it has to be in I mean, in the first trimester, I'd like to have it within the first week when she knows she's pregnant. Some women don't know they're pregnant. Right, but I'm I'm talking about the law. If the law is going to say you know, before this time it's okay. No, I think the first trimester as it as the way it reads now is is we we couldn't possibly go beyond that because then, I mean every every week that you wait, the baby the fetus is being formed into a child.
[0:07:53] Randall Roth: So generally speaking, people on the pro-choice side would say there is a point in the pregnancy beyond which it shouldn't be legal.
[0:08:00] Holly Born: That's right, and I think the law says first trimester.
[0:08:03] Randall Roth: Okay. Um Holly, do you feel that there's ever a set of circumstances where abortion should be legal, whether it's a pregnancy caused by rape or incest or or incest or or whether the mother's life is in danger or other circumstances?
[0:08:18] Holly Born: I do think that, um, if the mother's life is in danger, uh, abortion should be allowed simply because our concern is both the mother and the child. And whenever that situation comes up, which is rare, it should definitely be taken into consideration. But if I may clarify, um, Doe versus Bolton that happened after Roe v. Wade legalized abortion, um practically on demand for all nine months of pregnancy. And they said that it's for health reasons and health means anything the the quote is um psychological, emotional factors, which can mean the maternal age or practically anything you want. So it's legal for all nine months.
[0:08:52] Randall Roth: And I guess that touches on this this controversy just a few months ago when the Republican controlled Congress passed a a prohibition against what some people call partial birth abortions. It's a a late term technique where I guess, um, uh the child is actually brought out through uh uh the the birth canal except the head and and and the the brain ends up being um extracted and it's a very gruesome sort of thing when you when you read or hear about this.
[0:09:22] Randall Roth: And the Congress made a law or passed a law that said uh that would be um, it couldn't be used except where the mother's life was in danger and President Clinton vetoed that saying it should be where the mother's life or health is in danger, but I think Holly you would say that just opens the door to allowing it anytime somebody wants it.
[0:10:04] Holly Born: I I find that, you know, this whole argument, we never explain it completely, it gets very emotional. First, I think it should be left up to the medical community, and the AMA said that they didn't go along with this. But there are perhaps there are some instances where they need to do that procedure, uh and it's not for us in the community or government who knows very little about medical care, but I think most hospitals, women's and children's hospitals, they don't do abortions if it's even sometimes women don't know the the woman doesn't know really how far along she is.
[0:10:33] Holly Born: Uh but if they suspect, I mean, I know our hospital here, Copilani Medical Center, uh we don't do abortions if if it's we feel the time has gone past the first trimester. And we're trying to be very careful and to air on the other on the side of, you know, so I can't imagine. Obviously there are doctors that do things that shouldn't be done. There's probably hospitals or clinics that do things that shouldn't be done, but then we need to go after them, and we need to ask the medical community to police their own doctors.
[0:10:40] Randall Roth: One more issue I'd like to bring up before we invite callers and and that is what's going on in the Republican Party right now. Their convention is just starting in San Diego, and and Eve, some people have have called this a a one party debate uh within the Republican Party. Uh a majority of people are pro-life and there has been a plank in the platform for some time calling for a constitutional amendment that would support the the pro-life position.
[0:11:05] Randall Roth: But the pro-choice faction of the uh Republican Party had tried to get, and in fact, um soon to be candidate Dole had uh had encouraged the Republican Party to put into the platform some tolerance language that would specifically recognize that some Republicans are are pro-choice. They ended up with a compromise that left the the pro-choicers feeling uh uh less good than the pro-lifers. What do you think?
[0:11:30] Eve Anderson: Well, I think it's mistake to even put that plank in the platform. I would rather see see the Republican Party platform saying that we we stand for strong families, and and every child that arrives in this world uh will be given an honest chance to be successful. It's a no-win situation to put it in the platform, because we don't have in the platform, I mean, what's the man's responsibility, and all the other things that have to happen if if we're going to force everyone into one rule.
[0:11:56] Eve Anderson: So to me, it's a mistake to even have it there. I know in our local politics when we've argued that point is usually done by just a couple of people on the platform committee so it doesn't it's not everybody's viewpoint in the party. Now the national level they did have they had our you know our delegates are up there and discussing, but to me, it's a it's a mistake to even get in there. We we need to encourage our members to be responsible in their actions. But to say you can do this or you can't do that, it'll never work. You can't enforce it and causes problems.
[0:12:23] Randall Roth: Okay. You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. My name is Randy Roth. Eve, I think you would call yourself pro-choice?
[0:12:38] Eve Anderson: Well I'm pro-choice, but I mean I think as I said before, I think we're all pro-life, but I'm pro-quality of life and all those other uh adjectives, but also pro-choice.
[0:12:46] Randall Roth: You definitely wouldn't want to see Roe v. Wade overturned.
[0:12:49] Eve Anderson: Absolutely not.
[0:12:50] Randall Roth: Okay. And also Holly Bourne, who is the associate director of Hawaii Right to Life, and Holly, I think it's fair to call you pro-life.
[0:12:57] Holly Born: Yes, that's fair.
[0:12:58] Randall Roth: We're talking about abortion, and now is the time in the show that we not only welcome, but we encourage your calls. We would like to hear your question or your brief comment. The number is 955-8821. If you're on a neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. Again we're talking about abortion with representative Eve Anderson and the executive or the associate director of Hawaii Right to Life, Holly Bourne. The number 955-8821. Holly, something that you raised earlier that I'd like to come back to is adoption.
[0:13:30] Randall Roth: I'm never sure whether to believe statistics that I I read, but I I saw an article not long ago that said uh all of the women who are pregnant and unmarried, if you look at the statistics in terms of how many of them have the child, how many of them uh abort the the fetus, uh and how many have the child and put it up for adoption, uh 49% according to this article um have the child carry the uh the fetus to term, have the child, keep the child. 49% have an abortion and only 2% put their child have the child and put that child up for adoption.
[0:14:07] Randall Roth: Um, I was a little bit surprised that uh um what is that, 25 times as often we have abortion as we have the adoption. Why isn't there more activity with respect to adoption?
[0:14:20] Holly Born: I that's a very good question. I think there's a few reasons. Um, one, there's not enough education about the adoption option. You hear a lot about abortion, but you really don't hear a lot about adoption. And the other thing is our society is really geared toward the easy way out and abortion is portrayed as an easy solution. It's over in, you know, 10 minutes, the procedure and your situation is resolved. Whereas if you choose adoption, you do have to sacrifice and take those nine months to carry that child to term.
[0:14:48] Randall Roth: Okay, well we have some calls coming in. Let's go first to Bobby in Makiki. Good morning, Bobby.
[0:14:52] Bobby: Good morning. Thank you, Eve. Uh birth control information has got to be taught in our schools, starting in kindergarten geared to the kindergarten age all the way up through high school. We've got to stop these kids from producing babies where the fathers take no responsibility whatsoever. Thank you.
[0:15:13] Randall Roth: Okay, thank you Bobby for your comment. Eve I think you wanted to say something?
[0:15:16] Eve Anderson: Yes, you know, I think even though we educate our teenagers, we're still going to have teenage pregnancy. You know, there's still be. And what I think should happen is the teenager the couple need to come together with their support group, mom, dad, religious member of their whatever, everybody that's and they have to sit down and the young man has to the they has he has to be willing to support that girl through the nine months.
[0:15:40] Eve Anderson: And then he has to pay for half the cost and then the question of adoption, and then once that baby comes, who's going to take it, the girl's parents the you know you know all those questions. But right now we allow the young man to walk away from the responsibility.
[0:15:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Holly I know you didn't hear Bobby's comment uh and I think she was pretty much um applauding what Eve has written and is saying and uh and supporting that position. Any thoughts that you might have on on what Eve has just said? I know we got a little problem with your your headset.
[0:16:13] Holly Born: I'm sorry. Um, I agree with Eve completely that there needs to be some serious education done in the schools about the responsibilities of parenthood. Um, if people understood everything that was involved, perhaps they wouldn't get themselves into that situation in the first place.
[0:16:27] Randall Roth: Maybe this is another topic, but I'll raise it and ask for quick answers. Uh, should we be handing out condoms in the schools?
[0:16:36] Holly Born: Definitely not.
[0:16:37] Eve Anderson: No, we should not be handing them out at schools, but we should be talking about them and and letting people the kids know because they're going to find out about it anyway. But they should not be in a basket at school health clinic.
[0:16:47] Randall Roth: Okay, we move on to Paul on Maui. Good morning, Paul.
[0:16:50] Paul: Good morning. Do you have a question or a comment for our guest this morning? Well, I have a a couple of comments. One is throughout this whole discussion, I have never heard anybody talk about the father's rights involved while the woman is pregnant. The only thing that he's ever expected to do is pay.
[0:17:10] Randall Roth: Hey Paul, hang hang on. I know you've got another comment. Eve said something about the father's responsibility. Eve, what about the the the father's rights in this?
[0:17:19] Eve Anderson: Well, that's absolutely he has a good point. The father has rights up to this point, especially the teenager the young the young person has up to this point allowed to run away, and most young men don't know what to do even if they want to be helpful. I know at Copilani, we have a program for our young teenagers down to 12 years old that are up high. Uh but and we also need the program for the young boy that was involved in it.
[0:17:41] Randall Roth: But but what if the mother wants to have an abortion and the father, who sees that as his child, doesn't want his child aborted, what happens?
[0:17:50] Eve Anderson: That's one of the problems. And when the child comes is is born, who's going to take him? That controversy continues and that child gets pulled back and forth. So this is all these things that need discussion.
[0:18:02] Holly Born: I I couldn't agree with Paul more. I feel it's an outrage that that fathers aren't allowed in the decision making process. And that's part of the reason why I am against abortion because everything falls on the woman and they forget that it takes two to create this child.
[0:18:20] Paul: But legally, the father has no rights, and so what do you expect? The guy goes out there, he is no better than any other member of the animal world. He's genetically predisposed to procreate. And then you turn around and you tell him that all he is is a lunch ticket and he only deserves to pay, pay, pay for 20 years and he might get some sort of form of of visitation, but most of the time he's paying for something he never gets to see or be around or or join in with any of the sad sad parts or the good parts.
[0:18:52] Paul: What do you expect? It only generates a bunch of contempt from the male world.
[0:18:56] Randall Roth: Okay. Paul you've made your point very well. Thank you for your call. Another Paul, this one in Makiki. Good morning, Paul.
[0:19:03] Paul: Good morning, sir.
[0:19:04] Randall Roth: What do you have for this for us this morning?
[0:19:06] Paul: Well, then gentleman just covered a little point of the father's rights. And uh it's interesting that the woman have so much freeway uh in making decisions such as those. Uh secondly, when you think about foster children, which I have been in five separate homes. So I have a lot of experience. First thing you learned that you're a meal ticket, you're a slave. Now, today is slightly different. You tweet a kids, the policeman show up but in my time, they'd break your head off. But love is not part of the whole situation. It has to do with you here because you need discipline, we get paid for it and we're going to make sure you learn discipline and on top of that you take care of this place of ours. Generally, that's how it works.
[0:19:53] Randall Roth: And you're talking about foster care now.
[0:19:54] Paul: Yes, sir. And when when we say adoption, why is it that everybody's talking about adopting only babies? When I was in the Salvation Army, where we were a bunch of boys all unwanted, outcasts. And we were troublemakers. That's why we're in the Salvation Army, not in the uh the other one.
[0:20:12] Randall Roth: So maybe instead of uh pushing older kids from foster home to foster home, uh we had to be pushing for for adoption of older kids. Indeed, in all ages. This idea of, oh, we got to have a baby, that's redundant. Okay. Paul, I I do need to move on, but I appreciate your call. Thank you very much. We go to Ken on the North Shore. Good morning, Ken.
[0:20:31] Ken: Hello?
[0:20:32] Randall Roth: Yes, you're on the air.
[0:20:33] Ken: Yeah, I had one thing that I would like to really say in particular in regards to the situation. One of them is God has ordained marriage is a covenant relationship and sex should be in between a husband and a wife only. People that have sex outside of marriage are underneath a very sinful situation and sin breeds a lot of really harsh and hard realities upon our society. And exactly what we're talking about now is exactly what has happened. Our liberals in our society have became have have basically are in the process of destroying our society. I believe that when people come to the realization that they need to be responsible for their conduct and their actions and that they will fall under what God has ordained and will humble themselves, that our nation could be healed. Okay. There should be no sex outside of marriage.
[0:21:32] Randall Roth: Okay, Ken. I do need to move on. I appreciate your call very much.
[0:21:36] Randall Roth: Um, let me just mention real quickly, in in preparing for the show, I read an article and again, Holly and Eve, I I don't know what to believe because often times, the the bias of the author will uh will affect just what's said. But in this article, it was saying that a growing number of schools are starting to promote abstinence. And they were telling about a San Marcos Junior High School some place in California where they started this program and the year before, they had had 147 pregnant girls in this junior high school. The year after they had started this program, they had 20 and it gave me the impression that that that that was working. Do you have any quick reactions then we'll go back to our callers, Eve?
[0:22:16] Eve Anderson: I think my point of view, when when you just say teach the kids abstinence, and this is what we've heard a lot, to me that's not enough. Obviously, you have to talk about it, you mean, you have to get the kids to understand their responsibility. But you got to talk about the whole gamut, which lots of people are not willing to. So, we've got to teach the kids and be up front with them. What does it take to be a parent? And isn't it better to wait, which is abstinence.
[0:22:38] Holly Born: I think abstinence is definitely the best thing and the only thing to teach in the schools because that's the only thing that's going to guarantee 100% of the time that these kids don't end up pregnant. Um, and these studies, I've read a lot of them, that push abstinence do have better statistics the years that follow and the ones that push other um, birth control methods end up having higher pregnancy rates.
[0:23:00] Randall Roth: Okay, well, I'm I'm expecting somebody to call quickly and to say that uh you folks, have your heads in the sand. We got to be handing out condoms because there's going to be a lot of activity. Well, we'll see whether that we get that caller or not. Let's go to Ann on the Big Island. Good morning, Ann.
[0:23:14] Ann: Hi, how are you? Um, this is a wonderful subject. I think the government should stay out of the problem, except to support families and to support uh individual responsibility. I think the choice is important that is important that women have choice over their bodies, but the choice begins before they decide to have sex. They need to make that choice and knowing, having an education and knowing what happens when they have sex is very important. And the other another thing is abortion is not an ideal method of birth control and it should not be used for that. It should be legal and it should be in hospitals and it should be available to people who need it for emergency situations and just keep the government out of regulations about it. I think we should encourage the communities to to uh help families develop values and take responsibility for one another and that and remember that a lot of teenage pregnancies are not with other teenagers, the pregnancies happen with young girls through adults in their families. Thank you very much.
[0:24:15] Randall Roth: Thank you, Ann. We appreciate your call. Um, just talking real quickly about numbers, Holly in your article this morning, you said one and a half million abortions each year in the United States. Is that a controversial number or is that something that people on both sides of this issue will will accept, Eve?
[0:24:32] Eve Anderson: Well, I don't think anyone knows if those are real numbers or fake numbers because it's hard to collect. That's what the government is telling us it is. Uh, but I would imagine it could even be higher. I don't know, I don't know.
[0:24:42] Randall Roth: Which would suggest that that that it is being used by a lot of people.
[0:24:46] Eve Anderson: Out of the population of how many people in the United States? I mean, so you got to look at a million abortions sounds astronomical, but in the whole population, then it puts it more in perspective.
[0:24:55] Holly Born: I agree that it's hard to believe the numbers, and I agree with Eve that it's probably higher because reporting um abortions is completely voluntary to the center for disease control. So it is probably higher.
[0:25:07] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, let's uh move on to callers. We uh we got a lot of callers, but we're going to move through them very quickly and so if you'd like to get in line, our number is 955-8821. Let's go to Laura on Maui. Good morning, Laura.
[0:25:19] Laura: Hello, good morning. Um, this is a great dialogue you have going. I I wanted to respond to Representative Eve Anderson's comments. I felt that um she's strayed a bit from the topic and it's such a I know, a difficult topic, but women's right over her body. And I myself oscillate between pro-choice and pro-life. I have have many thoughts on the subject, but um it's a bit dangerous ground there was that you're getting into there when she was talking about um babies and fetuses having potentially unsuccessful lives or um being unwanted and that it and and it re better that they were aborted. Uh that's a dangerous area. It's just it's not um
[0:26:01] Randall Roth: Laura, let me give Eve an opportunity to to say whether that's what what she was communicating or not.
[0:26:07] Eve Anderson: No, I don't think it's that that just better that a a fetus be aborted. Well, I I heard you then talking much about abstinence and I I know that that is definitely the more positive area to approach the subject to
[0:26:22] Eve Anderson: But if you just talk about abstinence, the kids are getting pressures from all over and even the young girls getting pressured to have sex with the football coach, you know, somebody and she doesn't know how to handle it. This is why I'm saying we got to roleplay with these kids and let them know when they're in their groups they're out at a party and something, somebody starts pressuring them, how do they get out of it? How do they say no? How do they back off? Many of them don't have those skills and that's what we have to talk to them about.
[0:26:50] Holly Born: Yes, I think that's an excellent approach, but be careful to not talk about um who whether a baby I I it just sounded so dangerous that um if someone's going to be unwanted or unsuccessful be better to have the abortion. I we just can't make those decisions about um our fellow people who's successful and who's unhappy. I mean there's so much potential for everyone.
[0:27:11] Randall Roth: That's right. Well I think it absolutely has to be up to the woman and her support group. Hopefully it's the man involved somewhere in there but but the woman and her support group which could include the doctor.
[0:27:22] Holly Born: Right, thank you.
[0:27:22] Randall Roth: Laura, thank you very much for your call. Bye, bye. You know, as I was listening to Laura, I was thinking of these news reports just in the last week or two of a woman in England, I believe, who is pregnant with or was pregnant with twins, uh both of whom appeared to be quite healthy but saying that she just didn't think she could handle two, had one of them aborted. Uh, Eve, any reaction to that? I found that incredible because I wasn't aware that you could do that. And and I listened to the same program. Uh, but I guess you know the other thing is, to give up a baby that you have carried for nine months and it's not easy to do, and yet even though you can't take care of it, the stress on the mother to give up that child. Uh, so we get into all kinds of controversy, so again that was a decision she made, even for the twin. And we just saw it in Honolulu, where that where the young lady just saw found her brother, didn't know she had a brother, uh and so to separate kids and do all this stuff it just causes monumental damage.
[0:28:19] Randall Roth: But you're not happy about it, but you would support a woman's right to do that to abort one of of two fetuses.
[0:28:26] Eve Anderson: Yes, I would.
[0:28:27] Randall Roth: Okay. Holly?
[0:28:28] Holly Born: There must be a lot of stress on a woman to place a child for adoption, but I I certainly think it's a sad comment on our society when we say that it's it's more dignified to abort the child than to carry the child to term and place him or her for adoption. It's certainly more humane to let the child live and have a chance at life.
[0:28:47] Randall Roth: Okay. Well you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name is Randy Roth and we're here with Eve Anderson and Holly Bourne. Eve is a Republican representative from the 51st district here in Hawaii, and Holly is the associate director of Hawaii Right to Life. And uh we we naturally look at every uh everything said by other scent uh scientists with some skepticism. We're trying to do that. And that's often interpreted as meaning we we have a very a big uncertainties, perhaps bigger uncertainties than really exist. Okay. Steve, thank you for your call.
[0:30:16] Randall Roth: My name is Randy Roth and we're here with Eve Anderson and Holly Bourne. Eve is a Republican representative from the 51st district here in Hawaii, and Holly is the associate director of Hawaii Right to Life. We're talking about abortion and if you would like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call 955-8821 or on the neighbor island, it's 1-800-955-8821. If you tuned in late and would like to hear the show in its entirety tonight at 8 o'clock, you can do just that by tuning in KIFO, that's 1380 AM. Well, we go back to our callers. John on Maui, good morning, John.
[0:30:51] John: Good morning. First of all, I'd like to applaud your courage for having this topic. Secondly, there's a lot of excuse me, there's a lot of areas that you could discuss this on. You know, medical concerns, adoption, environmental concerns. My question is this: It's my impression that the underlying foundation of the pro-life movement is based on religious belief. Because of that fact and because religious beliefs are subjective and traditional, they're based on matters of faith, etc., don't you feel that this precludes any truly objective discussion of the topic? And because of this, don't you feel that the whole abortion area can be put into the arena of separation of church and state?
[0:31:29] Randall Roth: John, thank you, John, and I'm going to get a reaction to that from Holly Bourne.
[0:31:34] Holly Born: That's a good point, John. I think that it does certainly fall into a religious camp, but more importantly, it falls under the human rights issue. It has to do with the taking of an innocent human life. And although many churches have positions on this, it is primarily a human rights issue, and therefore should be discussed in the government and amongst ourselves here.
[0:31:53] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you, John. Appreciate your call. Let's go to Jeff in Kailua. Good morning, Jeff.
[0:31:58] Jeff: Good morning. Uh, I have a question as far as um I work with troubled teens every day. And um I see a lot of teenagers, adolescents who come in and are pregnant. And I was wondering what the law is as far as statutory rape and um about age limits as far as abortion.
[0:32:18] Randall Roth: Um, Eve you want to take a crack at that?
[0:32:20] Eve Anderson: What do you mean by age limits? I mean the young
[0:32:23] Jeff: Oh, I mean if you have a uh a child that comes in or an adolescent, and this person is, say 13 years old, this girl, and she's pregnant. And um maybe she's infatuated with the idea of being pregnant and she's going to have this child and it's going to be her baby. And you know, maybe she was growing up with dolls and uh sees it as a But are we talking about parental notification? Um, well, I mean, how far are we going to take, you know, um, abortion in this issue?
[0:32:55] Randall Roth: Are you going to let a 13-year-old make that decision?
[0:32:58] Jeff: Exactly.
[0:32:59] Eve Anderson: No, we would hope that parents would be supportive of a a youngster like that, but we know not everyone is. And there are major problems. So, no, I think the youngest 12 years old I mean that have come given birth, but you know, all the problems that it it causes. Isn't that one of the controversial issues that various states have tried to require, and some states have required uh parental notification, unless the mother is is a certain age? See, I find it incredible uh this parental notification. You would hope the parents would be but some parents are cannot handle that that that incident. The other thing is some of it sometimes is the father or an uncle that has fathered this child. And so what are they going to do? So we need a that's where we have community or you know, mental health people or sex abuse. We have all the medical people to help parents but I don't I can't imagine that we would force anyone, even a child to have an abortion. Well, but would you let that child make that decision? Let No, that that child would not make the decision by herself. That, I mean, if it wasn't her parents, it would be the medical community and maybe religious community that would help that child I would hope.
[0:34:07] Randall Roth: Uh, Holly, I think you've done crisis counseling. Right. Do you do you run into a lot of very young girls who are pregnant and afraid to tell their parents? Yes. How do you deal with that?
[0:34:18] Holly Born: That's a common situation. Um most likely though, most of the time it's just that the children are overreacting to how their parents are are going to are they they think that their parents are going to react more than they actually will and they don't realize how much their parents really love them. So what we do is we we role model and we or we roleplay and we go through things and we we talk about how to deal with it and if need be, we go with them to their parents to discuss it. We want to be there for that for that girl or woman to to do whatever is possible to help her talk to her parents to get the family involved. So we'll do we'll do lots of roleplay.
[0:34:54] Randall Roth: Okay. Jeff, are you still there? Uh-huh. Does that respond to your comment?
[0:34:58] Jeff: Uh, more or less.
[0:35:00] Randall Roth: Anything else?
[0:35:01] Jeff: Uh, no, thank you.
[0:35:02] Randall Roth: Thank you. Let's go to Mary in Honolulu. Good morning, Mary.
[0:35:05] Mary: Good morning. Um I just wanted to comment on uh some of the conversation earlier about teaching abstinence in school. Mhm. Um I I think uh it is important to teach abstinence, but as Eve said, the full range of options needs to be talked over with the kids because uh you're trying to influence behavior. The reality is though that behaviors will continue even though you're trying to teach uh although you're trying to teach a certain line of behavior, other behaviors will continue. And there's uh there's fatal diseases out there which I haven't heard mentioned yet. Um, talking particularly about HIV.
[0:35:46] Randall Roth: Mary, so that I understand, you're saying it's it's okay to talk about abstinence, but the reality is you've got to make condoms available?
[0:35:52] Mary: That's exactly what I'm saying.
[0:35:55] Randall Roth: Okay. And I and I think our guest in the studio have have commented on that already. They they would disagree with that. Anything else, Mary?
[0:36:01] Mary: No, that's it.
[0:36:02] Randall Roth: Okay. Thanks a lot. I I've been waiting for that comment. I I uh we try to have studio guests that are that are, you know, balanced when we when we set this up as a point counterpoint sort of thing and uh and that obviously is a view that's not represented here in the studio at least. Let's go to Theresa on Oahu. Good morning, Theresa.
[0:36:20] Theresa: Oh, good morning. Hi. Um, I just wanted to point out that I think um the thinking in abortion, one of the most dangerous messages is the one that implies that a life has no innate value unless that an individual has no value unless he or she is valuable to someone else. And I think that the reason this is dangerous is because we can look around society every day and see people that are useless from our perspective, from our from a practical perspective. Mhm. That life has to be considered innately sacred. And and and not even not from a religious perspective, but from a secular perspective. It is it is sacred in in and in of itself. And I think that um as soon as we start trampling on the idea that it that life has no that life has value on its own, then we start looking into really dangerous areas, as another caller pointed out, and and we can start you know, eventually going into aborting society. I I guess one could say this is kind of the slippery slope concern that the next step is is older people who aren't quote useless useful anymore and then maybe the people who have mental illness or what have you, Eve Anderson.
[0:37:39] Eve Anderson: But see, I think in a case like that you talk about the elderly, and there's some that do want to they've lived, you know, they're don't feel they're know don't feel well, they they they just have had it, or they don't have the support. But that again has to be an individual decision. And are we sure it is an individual decision, but how many elderly are in care homes that get terribly uh you know, assaulted.
[0:38:00] Eve Anderson: And we don't seem to do anything about it. So, society has really got to come together to say that every life is important and and that we work together. But until we can do that, I mean, even on this issue, we seem to say the right of the fetus is is is all important. But when the youngster is born, when the baby is born, many, many children, our babies, don't get the care they need.
[0:38:23] Eve Anderson: And I like to think that that the human being, we think we're the most intelligent being in the world, but it takes us years to grow up. So we need to be willing to spend those years to nurture that child. And as we look around us, constantly ask the teachers, that's not happening. So, somehow, we've got to make that happen. And how do we do that?
[0:38:43] Holly Born: Well, I would like to point out that I think, uh, we have to stop thinking that the practical decision is a moral one. I think it's very, very dangerous to say that if something is inconvenient, we should eliminate it, and therefore solve it. I think that as soon as we start doing that, we're going to be thinking about elderly people, and handicapped people, and people that have have, you know, severe problems that really don't play a practical role in society.
[0:39:13] Randall Roth: Okay, Holly, you've you've you've very eloquently stated that concern. In law school, we call that the slippery slope concern. You've articulated that very, very well. Thank you very much. Um, we've got another caller on the line. We're going to go to him in just a moment, but I want to let everybody know this is the Price of Paradise radio show. Uh, I'm here with Holly Bourne from Hawaii Right to Life and Republican representative Eve Anderson. We're talking about abortion and we do have some open lines. The number is 955-8821 or on a Neighbor Island, 1-800-955-8821. We go to Bill in Kailua. Good morning, Bill.
[0:39:50] Bill: Good morning, Randy. Uh, I am in total agreement with both Ken and Ann, but it seems to me that we, society, is not taking a strong position in this discussion, you know, this, uh, difficulty. Uh, the the fact that the church's authority has eroded so seriously, and we no longer have a moral imperative to live according to the ancient teachings of the church.
[0:40:26] Bill: And, uh, I think society is too supine about this business of of of illegal or illegitimate children. I think a good deal of this problem reverts to the attitude of society and the parents. Okay. There doesn't seem to be any real objection to it. I mean, it's I hate to be crude about it, but it seems to be that the ridding of a of a fetus has been reduced to the status of a bowel movement.
[0:41:03] Randall Roth: Bill, we've got to move on. We've got just just a few moments ago, it only takes 10 minutes to get rid of the child. Okay, Bill, we have to move on. I really appreciate your call. Um, I think part of what I heard from from Bill's comments was that all of this discussion of abortion is really talking about a symptom of something that's that's much deeper, a much bigger problem. Um, Holly, do you have a comment to that or anything else that you heard Bill say?
[0:41:28] Holly Born: Yeah, I'm just want to comment on how what he commented on what I said, about the 10 minutes to for the procedure. What I meant by that was that I exactly agree with Bill that it's just seen as an easy solution because it's so quick, and, but it's actually not an easy solution because it has it could have long-term physical and emotional consequences. But the 10-minute procedure is a reality, and that's how many people look at it, and they don't look at the future, and they don't realize that it could be a lot worse off than that.
[0:41:57] Randall Roth: You know, it it's a lot harder, I think, for for everyone, not just the mother, it's a lot harder when we see pictures of of a fetus with well-formed fingers and movements that look like ours and that sort of thing. I guess part of this controversy is to what extent um the Right to Life movement, which tries to get everybody to see these pictures and whatnot, to what extent that's imposing on people something that that they have a right not to see. And I'm not saying this very well, Holly, but I think you know what I'm talking about.
[0:42:32] Holly Born: I think everyone has a right to the truth and the development of the unborn child in the womb is a matter of truth. It's not fiction. It's not something we made up to try and convince women not to have abortions. The the the heart beats after 18 days, you know, and um there's measurable brain waves.
[0:42:48] Randall Roth: So if it makes the woman much more uncomfortable in in making this decision, that's okay because that's It is an uncomfortable decision. It should be an uncomfortable decision. It's a serious decision that she should know all the facts about. Eve, what's your reaction to these pictures that some people would describe as um as as gruesome? Yeah.
[0:43:10] Eve Anderson: Well, I don't mind the pictures. I mean, I think people should should really know what's involved. Uh, but I I get, you know, amazed at the at the where we're saying the federal government shouldn't pay for abortions. Now, okay. Uh, I would like to say if a a woman has to have an abortion or a young girl, why are we educating her after the abortion, making it something that she has to go through, but also the man involved.
[0:43:34] Eve Anderson: He must come in and and be educated to too that there's a better way. But we don't even do that very well, and everybody says, well, I don't want my federal money to go for abortion. They forget that their federal dollars are going to go to pay to try to make this child right as it goes through life. They're going to be paying for this child from from that point to whenever he becomes a mature, she becomes a mature individual, and hopefully,
[0:43:56] Eve Anderson: because a child in the first couple of years of life needs it just intense care and loving and encouraging. If you don't get that and and you know, we see the problem, so so really, we need to talk about it very openly, and we need to have people responsible.
[0:44:11] Randall Roth: And you've you've raised another very complex aspect of all of this, and that is who pays for it, because that's very controversial, whether we're looking at private insurance or welfare programs or or whatever it might be. Let's go to our callers. We have Carol in Kaneohe. Good morning, Carol.
[0:44:26] Carol: Good morning. I've got so many comments and questions and you don't want to hear them all. Let me Let me ask one. Okay. Um, why don't we focus on the word choice? You know, if you don't believe that abortion is right, you don't get one. That's right. And if you believe that abortion is what's right for you, then there are certain parameters that that it has to fit in, and you can arrange for it.
[0:44:52] Randall Roth: Let me pass that question on to Holly Bourne because Eve Anderson, if you didn't hear her, she's saying, that's right, that's right. Holly Bourne, why isn't it right in your opinion?
[0:45:01] Holly Born: Because again, it's a human rights issue. It affects us all. If if we say that it's wrong for someone to steal, we can't just say don't steal then if you think it's wrong and let everybody else do what they want. You can't just say don't have an abortion and let everybody else do what they want.
[0:45:17] Holly Born: It has to do with all of us. Abortion affects all of us. Who pays for it? Who helps these people, these parents, bring the child into the world? It affects all of us, and it shouldn't just be about the woman alone, and um and thinking that it's just her decision, and she's in this isolated tunnel and nothing's going to affect anyone else.
[0:45:37] Randall Roth: Carol, I know you've got a lot more. Unfortunately, we've got quite a few people waiting. I really appreciate your call this morning. Thank you. We move on to George in Kailua. Good morning, George. George, are you there?
[0:45:48] George: I'm I'm here. Okay, you're on the air. Well, you're a very brave man for having this discussion today, Randy. My my wife used a different word to describe it, but go ahead. The question I have is is for Holly, I guess. Um as I'm sure she must be aware, there are certain forms of normal birth control, such as birth control pills and IUDs, that actually work after the point of conception, i.e. the the sperm and the egg have come together. Right. Um, what is the stance of of uh Right to Life people on the use of birth control pills, Norplant, and IUDs?
[0:46:24] Randall Roth: From Holly's reaction in the studio, I think you've asked a very good question, uh George. Holly, go for it.
[0:46:30] Holly Born: Um, Hawaii Right to Life per se doesn't take a stand on that because there is a lot of controversial evidence on that. Um, personally, from teaching natural family planning and doing a lot of research on this subject, the pill, um, the IUD, Depo-Provera, Norplant all can work in those ways. That doesn't mean they do it all the time. They work in many different ways, but they can work that way. So pro-lifers do take a stand against those and they don't use those contraceptives. They either use other ones, or they use natural family planning.
[0:47:01] George: Is Is there any particular reason that the um people who are pro-life don't do more um advertising or proselytizing against the evils of uh of uh preventative birth control then?
[0:47:16] Holly Born: Um, I think they do, it's just not heard. A lot of people talk about this. Um, a couple of very big organizations talk specifically about this. They just don't get a lot of media coverage.
[0:47:28] Randall Roth: Let me make sure I understand. This is Randy Roth. Holly, Hawaii Right to Life isn't against all birth control, but you're saying a lot of Right to Lifers are against those forms of birth control that can cause a very, very early abortion.
[0:47:45] Holly Born: Right. Hawaii Right to Life doesn't take a stand on this issue. We're just abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide. So I'm speaking from a a personal standpoint here. Um, yeah, those four contraceptives can speak can can act as an early abortifacient when the egg and the sperm have already combined to create a new life before they implant in the endom and in the endometrial in the endometrium, they're they're hostile chemicals that are released that don't allow it to implant. So the child is expelled with the next menstrual period.
[0:48:15] George: George, any thoughts on this? Well, I I just think that that's a um a stance that if if a lot more people were aware of it, it might uh cause a lot more second thoughts about um um a 100% uh no-choice uh pro-life stance.
[0:48:34] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you for your call. We go to Mark in Ewa Haina. Good morning, Mark.
[0:48:40] Mark: Uh hello. Uh, yeah, I'm calling, I guess with uh question for the the moderator I guess and also for um right to life representative. Um I've been involved in the pro-choice movement here for a while and I've helped to organize debates um with uh um right to life or anti-abortion groups. You know, we've gone and uh gone to these people uh to these organizations and approach them uh and you know, asked them to participate in a debate. I was wondering um you know uh I my question was concerning the choice of the participants today, I mean what were representatives from Planned Parenthood and NOW not contacted or or what was the the decision behind the the choice of the two participants today?
[0:49:30] Randall Roth: Well, it um I'll tell you what. Mark, let me invite you to give me a call after the show and I would just say that uh that somebody from Planned Parenthood was invited and for a variety of reasons, she declined. Oh, I see. Um but one I was just curious I No, no, I know I understand that, and and I think it's it's really a very good question.
[0:49:50] Randall Roth: Um I then decided it would be especially timely to have the pro-choice voice be someone who is a Republican because of the controversy within the Republican party. I see. But but the nature of of how I've put this together is such that that I think there are a missing a few missing voices, but that's the the beauty of call-in radio. We have people like you who can point that out so that it hopefully by the end of the hour becomes balanced.
[0:50:15] George: Yeah, well, I I would I would urge you in the future to have another debate on this with someone from there's an NOW chapter here, uh um that's active and there's and of course, you know, Planned Parenthood, there are also groups that have been involved in the Hawaii Reproductive Rights Coalition over the over the years, the AAUW and the ACLU. I'll tell you what Mark, call me after the show and I'll take some notes and I appreciate your call.
[0:50:41] George: Okay, just one question for uh uh Miss Bourne. Is that it? Holly Bourne? Holly Bourne. Yes. Um have have you ever uh approached pro-choice organizations and asked them to debate or or have you ever done anything like that?
[0:50:55] Holly Born: Um, I guess I did a lot of debating in my college years, so I wasn't really. And I've only I've only been with Hawaii Right to Life for about four months, so that's not something that I've taken on at this point, but I would be happy to.
[0:51:07] George: But do you know I mean your predecessor in Hawaii Right to Life, you know the director of Hawaii Right to Life. Um uh I I'm trying to remember Barbara Carmen Barbara Carmen. Right. Um that I know of uh I don't recall her ever approaching you know these if if you're comfortable with your ideas are are correct.
[0:51:25] Randall Roth: Mark, we we have to move on but but Holly if you missed it, Holly said she'd be delighted to do that, give her a call. Okay. Thanks a lot. We go to Terry on Maui. Good morning, Terry.
[0:51:35] Terry: Hello. I'd like to direct my uh question to to Holly. And I wondered in the preparation of people who are considering abortion, do what are they How do they prepare them? I have seen some uh pretty um gruesome material, which and I think it is if any of these people saw what happens to a baby as it's being aborted, whether they would really want to put this poor child through that.
[0:52:08] Randall Roth: For better or worse, it can it can really be shocking. Um, it is. Terry, let me ask Holly, um what is it like when when a young pregnant girl comes in to see you, and especially if if her parents don't yet know, um, how do you deal with that? Including what Terry's referring to, these these pictures that you describe as as the truth, that can really be quite shocking.
[0:52:33] Holly Born: Let me clarify that when I was talking about pictures, I wasn't talking about pictures of aborted babies. I'm just talking about pictures of fetal development. I think there's an important distinction there in what you show young girls. What we do when they come into the centers, or at least the two that I've worked at, is get to know them, get to know how they feel about being pregnant, and especially what they know about their three options: keeping the baby, abortion, or adoption. We never show an abortion. Um, at least I never have, and I don't know if anyone else that I've worked with who has.
[0:53:04] Holly Born: We do talk about how the procedure is done because that's something that they should know if they choose that. Um, but again, we never show the procedure. We never show bloody pictures. We never show, you know, aborted babies or miscarried babies. Um, I don't.
[0:53:19] Randall Roth: Let Let me ask you, what percentage of the time, just generally speaking, does someone who comes to you for some form of counseling end up aborting anyway? And I say anyway because I assume as as fair as you try to present this, there is a a clear-cut bias.
[0:53:36] Holly Born: That That's a very good question. I'm not really sure. I just heard a statistic the other day that half of the girls who come into us decide to keep their child, which means I don't know if the other half choose abortion or choose adopt um choose adoption. Um I'm really not sure about that.
[0:53:52] Eve Anderson: Well, I just think, you know, even if it's a 12-year-old or 14-year-old, if they choose and many of them choose to have their baby, then we need to have programs there to make sure they're going to be good moms, and that doesn't happen enough.
[0:54:05] Randall Roth: Okay. Terry, thank you for your call. Oh, you're welcome. We go to Joe in Makiki. Good morning, Joe.
[0:54:10] Joe: Good morning.
[0:54:11] Randall Roth: You're on the air.
[0:54:12] Joe: Uh, I think that you should be talking about a different question and which because I don't think anybody is really in favor of abortion. The question is, what do we do to make abortion, uh to limit abortion to to its very lowest point? And in fact, whether legal restrictions are a good way to do that, and I think it's unlikely.
[0:54:36] Randall Roth: You know, your your first point is something that I think both both guests emphasize in their articles that are that are in the paper this morning. So, I I think there's total agreement on on that. Uh, Eve Anderson, any quick reaction to Joe's comments?
[0:54:50] Eve Anderson: Not right now. Okay. All right, Joe, thank you for your comments. We really appreciate it. We go to Mike in Manoa. Good morning, Mike.
[0:54:56] Mike: Oh, good morning. Uh I've got a comment and a question basically directed at Holly. Uh while philosophically in a perfect world, I think we'd all agree that we'd rather not see any abortion. Uh but I've got some certain practical concerns uh with returning to what might be called the traditional approach. Uh you know, the traditional approach being abstinence before marriage, illegal abortions, and stigmatization of those born out of wedlock.
[0:55:22] Mike: And the practical problems are number one, uh with respect to criminalizing a recriminalizing abortions uh would be the so-called backroom abortions that used to take place before Roe v. Wade, uh which it resulted in a great deal of injury to the mothers and often and also death. And, you know, there were many horrible stories about how those abortions used to take place.
[0:55:46] Mike: And the second one was stigmatization of the illegitimate children, which uh of course is unfair to the children because they didn't have anything to do with uh their parents uh uh procreation, and also the psychological damage that it did to the children. And uh I guess that, you know, while I don't think I don't think that abortion is the right way to do things, but uh how do you uh go back to a more traditional system but not uh you know, encounter these same problems which caused much of the fewer or against the abortion in the first place? Or against, uh uh which uh you know, kind of gave some impetus to legalizing abortion.
[0:56:28] Holly Born: The year before abortion was made legal, um the year before 1973, there were 39 deaths due to illegal abortion and there were 25 deaths due to legal abortions. And that's not a statistically significant difference. And I also um want to point out that if abortion were to become illegal now, we've perfected the methods of abortion over 23 years. We're not going to go back to back-alley abortions, if there ever was any. Um, there's no direct evidence of coat hanger abortions or anything like that. There's just anecdotal evidence. Um,
[0:57:01] Speaker 1: And having perfected these methods, I don't think that all the doctors are going to go in the corner and not perform them anymore. Unfortunately, I think there'll still be doctors who perform them illegally and they'll still be relatively safe.
[0:57:13] Randall Roth: Okay. Mike, thank you for your call. We're down to just the last couple of minutes and I want to give my guests in the studio, Eve Anderson and Holly Bourne, each a minute or so to add what needs to be added or clarify what needs to be clarified. Eve Anderson.
[0:57:26] Eve Anderson: Thank you, Randy. I think whatever way we can argue this issue, it has got to remain pro-choice up to the individual. We have to educate people, so abortions are legal but very rare. You know, I don't know how we do that. I would hope the Right to Life Group would be much more vocal and outwardly having classes and talk sessions with teenagers, that so it's something that we can talk calmly about and really it gets down to individual responsibility.
[0:57:54] Eve Anderson: If you bring this child into the world, what are your responsibilities? And if you don't have the wherewithal, uh you know, we got to talk about adoption. The one the other adoption processes where a family will adopt the young mother for the nine months, so she's cared for and loved, and then the family takes over the newborn and then there's some exchange of letters and pictures. So that's a wonderful option. There are a lot of options out there, but we've got to make it work. And we've got a lot of horror stories that we have to, you know, clear up.
[0:58:22] Randall Roth: Okay, Holly Bourne.
[0:58:23] Holly Born: I think that the most important thing is that, um, abortion claims two victims, the child and the mother, and we have to remember that the mother is can be very negatively affected by an abortion physically, emotionally, and spiritually. We need to educate, as Eve said, I completely agree with her. We need to educate on fetal development, on the abortion procedure and on personal responsibility. The best thing that we can do for these women is give them the care and the respect that they deserve by giving them the best options.
[0:58:52] Randall Roth: Okay, and with that, we hear the music. Thank you, Holly Bourne, the associate director of Hawaii Right to Life, and Eve Anderson, a Republican representative here in the Hawaii state legislature. The producer of the Price of Paradise show is Suzie Roth, helping us technically this morning is Philip Hutchinson. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation. Next week we're going to have a show talking about Hawaii's political culture. If you would like to contact me or our producer, one way to do it is to use email. rroth@hawaii.edu. I'm so proud of having entered the computer age. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.