Water War in Hawaii
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1994-09-25
Guests: Dick Cox (former member, State Water Commission); Michael Chun (former member, State Water Commission; President, Kamehameha Schools)
Duration: 1:09:02

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: They assume pure. But I have a couple of guests with me in the studio today who say that assumption is simply wrong. Our water resources are limited and tough choices have to be made very soon about how it will be used and by whom. Richard Cox is an engineering consultant who for many years was an executive with Alexander and Baldwin. He has served on the Honolulu board of water supply and until just recently was a member of the State Commission on Water Resource Management, sometimes known as the Water Commission.
[00:00:30] Randall Roth: Michael Chun currently is president of Kamehameha schools from 1970 to 1981, he was on the faculty of the University of Hawaii where he directed graduate instruction and research in environmental engineering. Mike then served for four years as chief engineer of the city and county of Honolulu and since 1986 has been a non-compensated faculty member for the UH School of Public Health and Water Resources Research Center. He too has served on the state Water Commission. In 1990 Mike was named Hawaii state engineer of the year by the Hawaii Society of Professional Engineers. Mike, Dick, welcome to the Price of Paradise radio show.
[00:01:08] Michael Chun: Thank you very much, glad to be here.
[00:01:10] Randall Roth: Good morning, Randy. Morning, Mike, too.
[00:01:13] Dick Cox: Good morning, Dick.
[00:01:14] Randall Roth: Now, I'm curious. Both of you have been on the Water Commission, and I've heard that organization referred to many times, sometimes with a smile on the person's face, and sometimes not. Mike, can you tell me real briefly, what is the Water Commission?
[00:01:27] Michael Chun: The Water Commission is the body at the state level that is responsible for overseeing the management of water resources here in the state of Hawaii, groundwater as well as surface waters. Dick has been very much involved in in the Water Commission because he was on the he served very actively I think in that on that body that created eventually created the the Commission itself. Maybe, Dick, you'd like to.
[00:01:56] Dick Cox: Yeah, maybe I might elaborate on a little on this thing. The Water Commission developed out of the constitutional amendments back in 1978 and it was a controversial issue then for many years, because it was 87 before the legislature was able to pass a water code as it's known.
[00:02:20] Randall Roth: And water code, that's just all the law that relates to water use?
[00:02:24] Dick Cox: And that's the law that relates to water use and and water quality, which is left with the Department of Health. But the
[00:02:34] Randall Roth: So, if the code says who owns it, and the Department of Health focuses on quality, what does the Water Commission do?
[00:02:40] Dick Cox: Well, the Water Commission provides actually, in areas such as Oahu, where which we call a designated area, you have to get a use permit from the code so that the quantity of water that you get is resolved by the commission alone in here.
[00:02:58] Randall Roth: So, you folks take a look at those requests and you try to figure out how much water there is, and I guess there's some prioritization that's going on, that if there's competing requests for the use of water, you decide which is the more important use.
[00:03:13] Dick Cox: Well, basically, that's what we're looking. The priorities go and we're still working the commission is still working. I'm off of it now, but as Mike has been working on the Hawaiian rights, which are special rights type of a thing, the Department of Hawaiian Homes have special rights for for state waters along in here.
[00:03:35] Randall Roth: Well, let me ask Mike, why why is that? Why would native Hawaiians have special rights with respect to the use of water?
[00:03:41] Michael Chun: Well, first of all, that goes back to the constitution. There there are some basic constitutional I'm not sure what the term would be but rights that have have been designated for native Hawaiians. And the those native Hawaiian water rights basically fall in three areas, one would be the rights that are associated with the Hawaiian Homelands. Secondly, rights that we refer to these rights as the appurtenant rights and I use that word because you're going to hear it time and again, if you read the papers or if you go to conferences you will hear the word appurtenant.
[00:04:21] Michael Chun: Basically, these are rights that that accrue to certain practices, agricultural practices that were in place prior to 1848, the Great Mahele. And that those rights really have been identified as rights that that are associated with taro cultivation. But it really goes beyond that. So that those are appurtenant rights.
[00:04:46] Randall Roth: So that that's focused on how the water would be used.
[00:04:48] Michael Chun: Yes, right.
[00:04:49] Randall Roth: Okay.
[00:04:50] Michael Chun: And then the the the the third area would be gathering rights, rights basically in the area of surface waters, rights for under certain conditions for native Hawaiians to be able to go to a stream and practice gathering of of foods for subsistence subsistence purposes, and and maintaining maintaining a given amount of water in that stream to allow the propagation of the life that would be then gathered by the biological life that would be gathered by the native Hawaiians. Very simply, that's those are the three basic areas of Hawaiian water rights.
[00:05:29] Randall Roth: Okay, so on on these the list of priorities, native Hawaiian water rights are are very high. What are some other items that are high on the list of priorities as the Water Commission tries to sort out who gets to use how much water?
[00:05:42] Dick Cox: The other high priority, or I don't know if it's a priority, but is the protection of the of the streams along here, the protection of all our water rights water uses along in here. And the state Constitution does have some comments about protecting agriculture along in here. And one right that interestingly enough isn't really discussed very much in the code, but is discussed in codes on every other state is domestic water, people drinking water type of a thing.
[00:06:17] Randall Roth: Now, in preserving this, the stream flow, can that be described as protecting the environment or are these completely different things?
[00:06:24] Dick Cox: That's that's protecting the environment, and it also protects these Hawaiian rights that Mike was talking about for the appurtenant taro rights along in here.
[00:06:32] Randall Roth: Okay, so agriculture in general is high up on the list of priorities and then taro farming is particularly high because of the tie-in with appurtenant rights.
[00:06:40] Michael Chun: Yes.
[00:06:42] Dick Cox: Randy, you know one of the things I think I might mention is that if you take a look at Hawaiian water law, it it goes back to the practices of the those native Hawaiians were here prior to the arrival of Western civilization. And if you take a look at our system of water law, people don't really own the water.
[00:07:06] Randall Roth: That was my next question. Who owns it?
[00:07:08] Dick Cox: The the water the the water goes with the land and certain practices that take place on that land. And so, it's unlike Western water law, where I can own a block of water and I can I can sell it. You can't really do that here in in the state of Hawaii.
[00:07:28] Randall Roth: But can't you sell the land?
[00:07:29] Dick Cox: You can if you sell the land and if if the land use doesn't change, then a water use permit or a a water use that is taking place on that property can continue.
[00:07:46] Randall Roth: Now, I would think that with sugar cultivation on the decline, sharp decline, that there would be lots of of new water on the market if you will, more water available than anytime in the recent past, and that therefore there wouldn't be as much controversy over who gets to use water, but in just reading the newspapers, I get the impression that this is a real hot issue right now. Dick, why is that?
[00:08:12] Dick Cox: Well, they I I think Mike kind of talked about this a little bit, that the use as long as it stays the same on the land can be continued, and one of the problems then comes as if sugar goes out is how do we transfer the water use to to other social needs or people's needs or environmental needs, and this is the issues that are coming to the fore right now, especially on this island.
[00:08:41] Randall Roth: But if the owner of the land owns the water as long as he owns the land or at least can use the water as long as he has the land, why wouldn't that owner simply make that decision? In other words, if it comes to a showdown between the owner of the land who says, I'm going to build houses, and we're going to use the water for domestic drinking, etc., and the Water Commission would really rather stay in agriculture. Mike, what happens?
[00:09:05] Michael Chun: Well, in a designated area, everything's controlled by the permitting system and a water use permit is very specific to use. So let's say Waialua Sugar might have a water use permit to draw water for the purposes of sugarcane cultivation. If they decide no longer to grow sugar but to grow houses, then you know that is a change in in land use and the water use permit would would no longer be valid. You know, it's just a it's it's how the law was constructed and and basically how it operates.
[00:09:41] Randall Roth: So as the plantations shut down, that's pretty risky in the sense that the owners of that land perhaps will use will lose the use of that water that they've enjoyed while they were growing sugar?
[00:09:54] Michael Chun: It conceivably, you know, they they they would have to take a look at it really be up for consideration. The water that they would be using would be up for consideration.
[00:10:04] Randall Roth: In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Dick Cox and Mike Chun, and we're talking about water, specifically who gets how much and for what use. We are live and phone lines are open. Just call 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are invited to call collect, the number again 955-8821. Reading the newspapers, the issue that seems to be written about the most, at least over the last few months, has been the water in the Waiahole Ditch. Dick, could you tell us briefly what this Waiahole Ditch is and why all of a sudden it would be such a hot topic of conversation?
[00:10:47] Dick Cox: Waiahole Ditch, of course, is is is the major issue perhaps practical issue coming up right now before the commission and before the community as a whole.
[00:10:58] Randall Roth: And is it coming up because the plantations are shutting down, or is there some other reason it's coming up?
[00:11:03] Dick Cox: And Waiahole Ditch is owned by Waiahole irrigation company, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Waiahole Sugar. Waiahole Sugar going out, this is brought water across from Windward Oahu to the plains above Pearl Harbor since about 1919. I've forgotten just the exact year, but about 1910 and and brings a about a minimum of around almost 30 million gallons a day and at the maximum something over that. So, here's water that's been used for irrigation of sugarcane for many, many, many years, and other agricultural uses are now asking for the water, that water use on those same lands for growing of potatoes and corn and vegetable crops type of a thing.
[00:11:57] Dick Cox: And the people on the Windward side are saying they want their water for additional taro growing, they want it for hopefully the improvement of the fish life, the Opu's on there, the hihiwai type of a thing. So that's the issue that's coming up here and there are actually three petitions to the Water Commission. One from the state of Hawaii, who wants to run that ditch, another one from the state of Hawaii Agriculture.
[00:12:30] Randall Roth: And when you say to run that ditch, as I understand it, the state's position is, let's pretty much keep the flow the way it has been?
[00:12:38] Dick Cox: That's basically what the state is saying. Let's keep that ditch system open, let us operate it instead of Waiahole Irrigation Company along here. They started in with a joint application, but I think Waiahole Irrigation Company is saying the state should take the lead.
[00:12:54] Randall Roth: Okay. I want to come back and get the other two. Mike, did you have something you were going to comment on?
[00:12:58] Michael Chun: The other issue too I think that's associated is is the actual the concept of moving water from one part of the island or one aquifer, one watershed area to another. I think that's an issue that needs that is being debated and and it's part of the overall discussions that are going on there now. The other thing that I would point out with respect to Waiahole is because it has been ongoing for so long, it is critical to the water resources of the Pearl Harbor basin itself.
[00:13:36] Michael Chun: Because how it was it has been used, uh, has been from sugarcane irrigation and a good portion of the water that is used for sugarcane irrigation recharges the Pearl Harbor basin. So now, when you stop when you start talking about stopping that recharge, it throws all of your numbers up for reconsideration in terms of what is your available yield, your safe, your developable yield, or how much water you have in that part of the island.
[00:14:13] Randall Roth: So some of these uses we use it and it's gone, others we use it, but then it recharges the aquifer. That's correct.
[00:14:19] Michael Chun: I see. Dick, you were saying that there are three proposals. The first one is from the state and it basically says let's keep things the way they are. What are the other two?
[00:14:27] Dick Cox: The second one is from the Department of Agriculture of the state, which wants to get the water again for the same types of uses along here in the Pearl Harbor area. And the third one is a request basically from the neighborhood boards on the Windward side to keep all the water on the Windward side.
[00:14:50] Randall Roth: Or not keep it, but but redirected back to the Windward side?
[00:14:54] Dick Cox: Well, keep it on because that's where it comes from. And don't let it go across the the tunnel to uh to the uh Pearl Harbor side.
[00:15:02] Randall Roth: And not that they would dam up the the ditch, but but basically they're saying no more than what would naturally go to the other side, should go over there, the rest stays here on the Windward side?
[00:15:11] Dick Cox: Yeah, very and they would let it run down the streams. It would allow additional taro growing, which they think there would be taro growers that would then start up growing taro again, and it would improve, they hope would improve the the fishes in the stream.
[00:15:26] Randall Roth: Now, it sounds to me, based on what the two of you were saying earlier earlier about priorities, that they would have pretty good standing because they're talking about taro farming which is high priority via the native Hawaiian rights, and they're talking about something that's quote natural, which I think fits into the priority that protecting the environment has. Dick, what do you think?
[00:15:47] Dick Cox: That's that's that's obviously correct along in here. And I think the uh issue has always been as whether there's been enough water for taro growing. There there are fewer taro growers than there were 50 or 100 years ago.
[00:16:00] Randall Roth: Yeah. Mike, what do you think about that?
[00:16:02] Michael Chun: Well, the one of the things that um we're always torn with is having to make decisions um and um for win-win situations, if you will. Indeed the taro farming and Hawaiian water rights would protect or would would secure water for that practice. The some of the sub-issues there would be how much water is necessary and and the extent to which taro farming would take place. On the other hand, it's very difficult to completely ignore a practice that has been serv serving the public good for for many, many, many years.
[00:16:45] Michael Chun: One could argue that the fact that Waiahole water has come over to the Pearl Harbor basin has been a major contribution to the recharge of that aquifer, has allowed the development of that part of the island. And and to allow um the uh or to terminate that that particular uh recharge, if you will, could have some adverse effect on ability for board of water supply for example to serve the needs of the people in other parts of the island.
[00:17:22] Randall Roth: And and so that becomes a a rather difficult issue to sort out.
[00:19:00] Speaker 1: agricultural use through new crops. Um, is water an important part of that conversation or just, what are we talking about on that tick?
[00:19:09] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, right now, of course, here are the large areas that of sugar that's head in cane that are uh not being urbanized. The the urbanization has basically taken place on the lands that are Mkai uh and the further ones up Mka lands are going to remain in agriculture along here. And one of the largest users that's trying to expand his land is Libby uh the Del Monte uh pineapple people who are look are planning uh potatoes right now and
[00:19:45] Speaker 1: potatoes rather than more pineapple.
[00:19:47] Speaker 2: Uh well, rather than more pineapple, there doesn't seem to be a need that we no longer can pineapples on this island so they're the while they have fresh fruit that they send to the mainland. They're looking at uh potatoes right now which went to FritoLay along and here and they're looking at uh other types of crops right now. They they feel very confident they're going to be able to uh raise many crops and they could use a substantial acreage. There are other farmers also coming. But every one of those farmers is saying we can't come unless we have water.
[00:20:22] Speaker 1: You're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio show. Today's topic is water rights in Hawaii. If there isn't enough fresh water to meet everyone's demands or perceived needs, what should our priorities be? That's what we're talking about, and my guests are former members of the Water Commission. Dick Cox is a former executive with ANB, and Mike Chun is president of Kamehameha Schools. Your calls are welcome. The number is 955-8821. Mike, did you have a comment you were going to make based on what Dick was saying?
[00:20:50] Speaker 3: Well, no, I was just going to comment on from a personal level, you know, the the priority in terms of agriculture, you asked about diversified agriculture. I would I would guess that most people who live here appreciate the role that agriculture has played in in our history.
[00:21:08] Speaker 3: And uh, and and the role that it it needs to play uh in our continued development and growth from this going forward. Uh you know, the the there needs to be a balance between the the urban requirements, you know, to support our population at the same time. You know, it's a very uh I think it'd be very dangerous if we we begin to ignore uh the other uh contributions of agriculture.
[00:21:38] Speaker 3: And that would be retaining open space. It would be uh, you know, keeping things rural, if you if you will the it adds to the quality of life and I think that we can't ignore those those attributes. Uh often times we we make our analysis uh purely a a um uh on an economic basis, financial basis and I think uh somehow we need to incorporate some of these other factors into that equation so that at least they're taken into account because they they are important.
[00:22:13] Speaker 1: I I think a lot of people agree with that. And a lot of those people then split on where golf courses fit whether they keep land open and it's an agricultural use or whether that's a form of urban urbanization. Where do golf courses fit into this discussion of water, Dick?
[00:22:32] Speaker 2: Maybe I could answer that a little bit. Obviously, this is a very controversial issue along here. The Department of Agriculture, interestingly enough, says that uh golf courses are agriculture because you're growing grass along in here versus growing crops. Now you sound you sound skeptical.
[00:22:50] Speaker 2: And uh, well, no, I think that's a legitimate uh approach. Uh the one of the questions that comes from uh many of the people that don't believe that it should stay in here are that uh first place is uh golf courses have in the past anyway, used a great much a lot of uh fertilizer, pesticides, this type of a thing and that this would get back down into the groundwater and uh further that it's a game for uh wealthy people rather along in here rather than uh uh local people although I know, I don't know about, I think Mike's a golfer along in here.
[00:23:31] Speaker 1: That's right, and I'm not a wealthy person. You have any thoughts about uh golf courses and and especially as it impacts on our water supply?
[00:23:40] Speaker 3: I think that uh it's compatible. I I don't have a problem with with golf courses being considered agricultural in in use, if you will. Um I I think um how the golf courses are developed, where they're developed, how they're maintained and operated, I think has a lot to do with with the acceptability um of of of that particular use for a given community. But I I don't believe that it's um um it's a an urban use per se and one that should be discriminated against from from the standpoint of water.
[00:24:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, let me let me expand a little on that too. Uh uh certainly the uh turf grass uh growers, people that work with a golf course, people along here have been uh educating golf course management throughout the state to use less fertilizer, less pesticides and one of the interesting ones just recently has been and it's getting national attention. I think it's called it Arrowhead, but it's uh money coming from Coors beer to a golf course, which overlies their groundwater sources, which goes into the beer and they found they can get by with very, very little uh fertilizer and almost no pesticides. Okay. Well we have a caller on the line. Kathy from Punalu'u, Kathy, you're on the air.
[00:25:06] Speaker 4: Um thank you for answering my call. Um I have two specific questions I'd like to pose. Uh thus far the AG commitment um uh on uh the other side has been short-termed. Uh farmers need long-term leases. Would they consider dedication uh to AG in perpetuity? That's my first question. The second one
[00:25:27] Speaker 1: Well, let's let's take them one at a time, Kathy. Uh Dick, do you have any thoughts on that one?
[00:25:32] Speaker 2: Well, obviously a question of how the length of agriculture uh would be in and that that becomes a planning issue. Uh we have the county planning department and the state Land Use Commission that says, lands must be in agriculture, type of a thing or open space along in here, so that uh it's not necessarily a decision by the landowner only. He may make petition to change the use, but that
[00:26:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, I I my my response is that uh a a water commitment and perpetuity really can be driven only by the land use in in question. And um if if that land use remains in agriculture for perpetuity, I think the the water that's needed to to support that uh needs to go along with that and can cannot be ignored, the the rights to use that water for that purpose.
[00:26:31] Speaker 1: Kathy, when you talk about long-term lease, I'm I'm assuming you're talking about 10, 12, 15, 20 years as opposed to perpetuity, or
[00:27:06] Speaker 4: Well, 10, 12 isn't sufficient. A farmer needs a lot longer lease uh to get his loans in regard to uh his materials and this is uh What Do you know what uh the length is now? Do you sound as though there's a a problem with the way it's done right now.
[00:27:16] Speaker 4: I think what was proposed at the hearings was something like um about 10 years, 15 years maybe, maybe. I see. And and we we need a better commitment than that to um uh you know, to protect the the AG lands. Now, I don't know whether it's going to come from the water commission or from planning. Um but that's not sufficient for good farmers to to get established.
[00:27:48] Speaker 1: And I think Dick, you were saying that that is a planning issue primarily, although the Water Commission certainly is on the periphery of that.
[00:27:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, the the Water Commission of course would provide water for agricultural use, right. So, I mean that's that'd be for that use. And so it would have to come back if they were going to change it. And the the use of the land though from the land owner would be based upon what that planning issues were. Okay.
[00:28:44] Speaker 1: Mike, you have a comment, then we'll get back to that.
[00:28:46] Speaker 3: Yes, very, very often, what happens is that the Water Commission is placed in a position of having to make land use decisions, and we don't think that is a the the proper thing, a proper position to be placed in. And it should it should be driven Water decisions ought to be in my mind rather automatic uh being driven by land use decisions. But often times it is reversed.
[00:29:33] Speaker 1: Kathy, your next question.
[00:29:35] Speaker 4: Oh, well, let me make one more comment on on the uh water commitment here. Um it strikes me as being water banking. Uh if we're not going to get commitment for all sides, then it's water banking. Uh my second point is that your two gentlemen, one represents uh Alexander and Baldwin, the other represents Kamehameha Schools, bishop estate, um in their professions.
[00:30:17] Speaker 1: But you you represent the the farmer.
[00:30:40] Speaker 4: I I would like to know if you are going to have other people with other points of view uh to be interviewed in the future. I I think this is a bit one-sided.
[00:31:50] Speaker 1: Well, the the beauty of live call-in radio is that um, you know, we can have guests that don't perfectly uh balance out and encourage everybody else to call in and ask their questions and Kathy, I I I guess all I can say is that uh we've got some folks here that are recognized as as experts on the subject, and while your approach might be different than theirs, I I'm glad you called in and and I'm hoping others who don't like what they're hearing from the president of Kamehameha Schools and from a a former ANB executive, uh I hope you'll call in and you'll hold their feet to the fire. You'll you'll explain where they're wrong. Thank you, Kathy, I really do appreciate your questions.
[00:32:12] Speaker 1: Please, everybody out there, especially if you disagree with what Dick Cox is saying or Mike Chun is saying, uh please do exactly what Kathy did. Call in and ask an excellent question and then if you're not satisfied with their response, uh ask an even tougher follow-up question. We very much appreciate those kinds of calls. they just should be concerned that we should continue to keep a close eye on it.
[00:38:04] Dick Cox: I think that's that's very very true. the quality of our waters are excellent in in Hawaii and certainly our drinking water is very safe along in here. Fact. Uh the studies that have been done show that the drinking water we get out of the tap is probably better than the drinking water you get out of a bottle because there things can get in as they're bottling these waters.
[00:38:25] Randall Roth: Now that's interesting. We have another caller this one Steve is from Hawaii Kai. Steve, you're on the air.
[00:38:31] Caller: Yes. Thank you. This question regards carrying capacity assuming some level of ag use. Has a calculation been made of the population level that can be supported by our natural water supply here. Thank you.
[00:38:48] Randall Roth: And I'm sure that's that's a planning question. But is it something the water commission also gets into, Dick?
[00:38:54] Dick Cox: I don't think the the water commission's got in. There has been a planning issue and there have been some studies of carrying capacity done, I think through the university mostly. Maybe Mike uh is familiar with some of those ones that were done. I know there was one done on the Windward side of the island.
[00:39:09] Randall Roth: I I've been told that water is the limiting factor in terms of carrying capacity. Is is that right or? Well, really if you if you take a look at the natural our natural um uh water supply and and you consider that and as the only source of our water, certainly there would be a a upper limit to how many people and the level of activities that uh that water supply could support. If you start to take a look at other technologies that might be available here presently as well as down the down the road. Uh who knows what the carrying capacity might be with respect to water. One of the the notion of determining what is that number. Um the water commission itself really has not made those kind of calculations and determinations what the water Commission has been actively working on for the last or since its inception has been trying to get a better handle on how much water um is available to be drawn upon on each one of the islands safely without ruining and destroying and destroying the that particular water source and most of them, we're talking about would be groundwater sources. And and this is this inventory activity has been a very, very high priority for the water commission. Not an easy task.
[00:40:43] Randall Roth: Has it gone on to say based on that inventory we can hold another x thousand people or it just hasn't taken that next step?
[00:40:51] Michael Chun: The water commission itself has not made that next step per se. But but Dick might want to Yeah, I go along on on this. Certainly, I don't think the commission has taken a thing on how many people or something like that. But there are other sources that Mike was talking about earlier Randy and uh the state has the desalination plant out at Ava, which is basically a a research type of operation along here. It can do a million gallons a day. There are some large plants in Florida right now doing desalination. We all know there's lots of water in the in the ocean, right? It will cost more, yeah, along here. But it may not be that much more expensive. The other area that the water commission has been looking at is uh trying to get more conservation and the board of water supply is trying to do that here in in Honolulu now. Uh, you certainly have read about the use of low low flush toilets and in various communities that are actually um bought by the water departments type of a thing. Uh, the use of effluent from uh sewage treatment plants coming here. And this is one that we're looking at uh right now in uh the Ewa Plains so long in our down in that Kapolei area.
[00:42:07] Randall Roth: Steve in Hawaii Kai are you still there?
[00:42:09] Caller: I am. What do you think?
[00:42:11] Caller: I think it was a a good answer. It seems to me that the next step that you referred to would be simple enough. Uh, there must be some notion of how much water it takes to sustain a uh human being in a western style of life and uh a simple division problem ought to tell us after they know how much water is there, how much the natural water supply could support. But I like the notion of uh using um effluent to uh to extend our water use. I I am concerned that uh a uh an approach that involves desalination might just mean no limit at all on the population these islands that worries me.
[00:43:06] Randall Roth: Mike Chun had something to add.
[00:43:08] Michael Chun: Yeah Steve. I I was just going to add um one of the difficulties or at least for the water commission to to make a a simple calculation that could be made if we knew what what the land use decisions are. And and so, you know, the the amount of water that can can or the population that can be sustained by the amount of water that we actually have really depends upon water use. You know, the balance between urbanization, Agriculture. And so those kind of decisions have to be arrived at before you can really get a a sense of okay now given this land use policy, what is it can we support? Yeah, that that's the reason I started my question originally with assuming some level of ag use. Thank you, Steve.
[00:43:46] Randall Roth: Thank you, Steve. In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, and my guests are Dick Cox and Mike Chun. We're talking about water, specifically who gets, how much, and for what use. We are live and phone lines are open. Just call 955-8821. Well, Dick and Mike uh Steve just raised the issue or I guess your response to Steve's question raised the issue of a wastewater. And I know there's a controversy, at least here on Oahu about primary treatment versus secondary treatment versus tertiary treatment. And um I wonder if you could Mike just tell us a little bit about how that fits into the whole issue of of water.
[00:44:30] Michael Chun: I think uh the use of effluent, treated effluent is a a critical element in water management, water resource management. And effluent, that's what's in the sewer. Oh no, effluent is what comes out of the treatment plant. What's in the sewer is sewage. Okay. Okay, so we're not using sewage to irrigate, we're using effluent to irrigate. And there's a there is a distinction between the two. And what's the uh primary, secondary, tertiary aspect of that? Well, a primary is a they refer to levels of treatment. Uh, primary is your first level, basically physical. You remove the solids from the water, from the sewage. And then you go to secondary. It's a it's a it's a higher level of of treatment, you take care of basically, the rest of the organic material. You don't touch some of the more exotic inorganic chemicals. And then you go to tertiary. You get a little bit more uh the the processes become a little bit more uh advanced and you you start focusing on some very difficult to remove chemicals. So that when you come out with tertiary, uh theoretically, depending upon the level that you've taken it to, you could create drinking water. Um if you stop and look at the Mississippi and the Missouri uh in the Midwest, um they serve as water supplies for many, many cities and towns and they also serve as the the the uh disposal point for for many of those same cities and towns. Uh Lawrence, Kansas, for example. All of Oh my. Oh my. You the the the water intake was upstream and the disposal was downstream, but you know, K-State at Manhattan, they're their effluent came into uh the same river that we used for our water supply also.
[00:46:11] Randall Roth: Mike is a graduate of the University of Kansas, and he knows my daughter is at the University of Kansas in Lawrence. Dick, do you have some thoughts on that?
[00:46:18] Dick Cox: Well, I I think that's, you know, Mike answered the question very well. Uh I think the thing that people are looking at is what are the costs uh to go from primary to secondary treatment. where if we use the plant along here to to put that water back into the ground so that it could be used for irrigation and who's going to pay that additional cost? So what I'm hearing is that water is really no problem if we're prepared to pay any amount of money to either take the salt out or to get the uh the sewage treated, etc. We have several callers on the line. First Wayne from Pearl Harbor. Wayne, you're on the air.
[00:46:58] Caller: Wait I have two questions. First thing is does the Pearl Harbor Basin serve the military establishment in Hikam and the Pearl Harbor shipyard?
[00:47:06] Randall Roth: Let's ask Dick to to answer that.
[00:47:08] Dick Cox: The answer is is uh the military does take water out of the Pearl Harbor aquifer along with the border water supply and up to now, Wahu sugar and a number of other smaller users. Dick is an aquifer kind of like a a big jug down there that that holds water and we try not to let the level in that jug get lower than it starts out at? I think that's pretty much true that uh the the our our ground is uh the water sinks down into the ground, and uh if you get it very low, then we'll get a salt intrusion because the salt water is right outside. And Pearl Harbor aquifer is frankly, one of the best in the in the in the world because it has this caprock that has held the water very, very high. Uh back before any wells were in that area, uh well before 1900, the the water level was about 40 ft in that aquifer. Now we're managing it at around 18 to 20 ft.
[00:47:59] Randall Roth: Wayne, you had another question?
[00:48:10] Caller: Okay, my reason for the first question was that if it is and they are being served, why don't they have to adhere to our state's water restrictions when we do put it on to the rest of the community?
[00:48:22] Randall Roth: Uh you're talking about for example, low flush toilets and that sort of thing?
[00:48:25] Caller: Or even uh not car washes and the watering the lawns and so forth and so on.
[00:48:31] Randall Roth: Okay, Dick.
[00:48:32] Dick Cox: Well, let me give a very quick answer along here. First place, the the federal agency, the military, don't have to abide by uh uh the state uh rules along in here. Uh uh the only one of the only areas they really have Well, that's just federal law. They are uh preempt. They have a bigger stick than we do. They have a bigger stick than we do. But actually and and I would like to say for the military, they've been very cooperative with the uh uh Water Commission in giving uh information as estimated uses along here, uh attempting to keep their uses down. Oh, I know there's always controversy whether they're doing the best job possible, but that happens to be the same thing with local people. I go down the street and I see people uh washing their sidewalks off with water, uh which is uh utilized, not a very good use of water. Not a good thing, I see.
[00:49:27] Randall Roth: Uh any other question, Wayne?
[00:49:29] Caller: Okay, my last question then, I have to have part three then. Is the military represented on the water commission board?
[00:49:36] Dick Cox: They are not. No, the answer is no.
[00:49:38] Randall Roth: Okay. Thank you.
[00:49:39] Caller: Thank you, Wayne.
[00:49:40] Randall Roth: We have a caller from Maui. Bill, you're on the air.
[00:49:44] Caller: Oh, this business of seeding the clouds, we have something in Hawaii that most places don't have. We have a lot of moist clouds that come up against the mountains. And the people in Colorado have managed for seeding those. So, we're always talking about dividing up a limited amount of water, but we're letting an unlimited amount of water float by.
[00:50:06] Randall Roth: Let me ask let me ask Dick Cox if this is something the water Commission has ever addressed.
[00:50:11] Dick Cox: Uh the let me answer that. First of Water Commission hasn't addressed this, but it is an issue that's being addressed uh more on the mainland areas which are relatively dry. We did uh work uh oh I would guess it was in the late 40s and maybe early 50s in Hawaii with uh seeding. Uh the island of Maui was one of the ones that was used. Uh the wine sugar planters and uh pineapple growers had a joint uh project there where they uh actually uh used jets of water from the ground trying to put uh small salt particles up there to get additional rainfall in the East Maui uh watershed along here. Uh it didn't uh prove to be satisfactory then, and there have been a few cloud seeding uh from airplane experiments in Hawaii but we've never found that they were uh very effective.
[00:51:10] Caller: The science has moved along plenty since 1940 and I'm just wondering whether we have any ongoing program for seeing what we can do over in the Hana area or other areas of, you know, intense cloud formation.
[00:51:27] Randall Roth: Let me ask Mike Chun if there's anything that that you know of that's going on.
[00:51:30] Michael Chun: I'm not aware of any any um uh any work experimentation, studies, research that are going on right now. I'm not sure if the Water Resources Research Center at the University of Hawaii is engaged in that type of research at this point in time. Um he might um Bill you might want to get a hold of uh Roger Fusioka from that uh uh research center and and query him because uh they do get in involved in a lot of different types of research along that line, those lines.
[00:52:00] Caller: Well, and the water board is not doing anything about keeping its finger on that pulse?
[00:52:05] Dick Cox: Well, the the the water board itself, I mean the commission itself, if you're talking about the water commission, it's more of a management, overall management um function. It does not have the resources to do that type of um research. The board of water supply itself is in a job of uh in the position of developing and delivering water to consumers and so the University of Hawaii has taken the lead uh traditionally in undertaking this type of research and working very closely with the board of water supply, uh not only on this island, but um the water supplies board of boards of water supply on every island.
[00:52:43] Randall Roth: So maybe Bill should call somebody at the University of Hawaii That's correct. and either find out what they're doing or encourage them to do something. That's correct. Okay. That's correct.
[00:52:52] Randall Roth: Thank you, Bill. All right. In case you joined us late, you're listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth and my guests are Dick Cox and Mike Chun. We're talking about water and we're live. Phone lines are open, 955-8821. Well having Bill call from Maui reminds me that uh not all of the water controversy is here on Oahu. Are there any specific water issues that you might want to share with our listeners that are going on on another island, one of the neighbor islands? Dick?
[00:53:24] Dick Cox: All right. I'll I'll I'll kind of respond to this. um One of the areas that certainly the commission has been spending a great deal of time has been Molokai. Uh and Molokai was declared a designated area where every uh use would have to be uh uh approved and uh the quantity would be restricted. And that was uh almost about two years ago. Uh there have been controversy since then on terms of some of the use. Uh the biggest controversy there of course, has been the water uh going to Coola Coy uh resort over there and the water line that they're putting in going over that area at the pressing time.
[00:54:06] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh maybe we can come back to that in a moment. We have a caller though, Tim from Nu'uanu. Tim, you're on the air.
[00:54:12] Tim: Hello, uh good morning.
[00:54:14] Randall Roth: Good morning.
[00:54:15] Tim: I wanted to uh just make a comment about uh water use and especially wa water conservation and it's it's a little separate from what you're talking about, but I wanted to uh suggest to to you and to the people listening. uh an idea I'm going to suggest it to the Board of Water Supply this week that uh a good way to conserve water which I've been doing for a few weeks is when I take a shower to just get myself uh wet, which takes a few seconds and then do all the shampooing and soaping and everything uh with the water off and you know, do it really well for a few minutes and then just rinse off and that turns uh into about a 2-minute shower instead of uh what typical people take probably a 10-minute shower or some people take 20 or 30-minute showers. So that's about a eight times water use. Tim, hang on onto the line. I want to ask Dick and Mike you know, as I listen to Tim, I admire what he's doing. Uh and I think that you know, it's it's neat on a on a conceptual level that we wouldn't just hand someone a glass of water unless they really were planning to drink it. But I think to myself that must be a totally insignificant amount compared to the millions of gallons that flow out into the ocean or that are used on sugar cultivation or whatever. How important is the kind of conservation that Tim is describing?
[00:55:37] Dick Cox: Well, I actually that's I think known as a submarine shower along in here. People in submarines have had to do this for a long, long time. How important is it? And and it's not that by itself maybe isn't so important. It's all of those things put together using that uh the drinking water, the border of water supply does tell restaurants, don't uh provide water unless people ask for it at a restaurant. So it's just changing our attitudes using water. You know, yes, it's just one person, but I've always believed that even when you start multiplying that one gallon saved or the two gallon saved by 800,000 people or a million. Uh how many people on this island? Uh 800,000? Is that the population? Million people if you get all the tourists. If If If you stop and think about it, say if you save 10 10 gallons per person, times 800,000, you're talking about 8 million gallons a day and we the board of water supply pumps uh 160, 170 million So it's not a a small number. And it's my I have my feeling is that um we need to raise the appreciation, understanding, conscious level of of of of for water conservation, you've got to do it through early education. You got to start with the young kids.
[00:56:55] Randall Roth: Tim, when you go to the board of Water Supply next week, you tell them that Mike, Dick and Randy agree with you.
[00:57:00] Dick Cox: Okay, thank you, and that's indeed, I was just going to, as I close here, I would encourage the listeners to try this kind of shower, it works fine because you're not immediately rinsing the soap off the second you put it on the way you do the typical American shower. You get a lather up more carefully, and also I was going to suggest that indeed the answer is to teach it to the elementary, teach the technique to the elementary, school students because it's hard to teach adults to change. But, thank you very much for your time.
[00:57:29] Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm just going to say that I know how to do it because that's how I take a shower.
[00:57:33] Dick Cox: All right. We have some more callers on the air and we only have about six minutes to go, so let's get to them right away. Dan from Honolulu, Dan you're on the air.
[00:57:43] Caller: Dan, are you there?
[00:57:45] Dick Cox: Hello, Dan, are you there?
[00:57:47] Caller: Yes, right here.
[00:57:48] Dick Cox: All right, we've got you.
[00:57:49] Caller: Okay. I have a question. There's a federally funded project on the North Shore of Oahu called the Cayaco Wailua Hydrologic Unit Area.
[00:57:58] Dick Cox: Oh boy, that's a mouthful. What what do they do?
[00:58:00] Caller: They're looking at the relationship between water quality and the streams, the aquifer and the bays and agriculture. It's one of the few projects I know of that directly involves federal state county agencies, large scale agricultural users and the citizens. My question is, what help if any is this project now in its fourth of five years been to this to this group here, especially with regard to determining future agricultural developments on North Shore.
[00:58:27] Dick Cox: Dick, do you have an answer? Maybe I can respond very quickly on this. The commission hasn't received any information from that study. I do know about it that it's going on, but I haven't seen any results, and I think all the results so far are very preliminary, too. Dan, thanks for your question. We've we've got a bunch of calls in a limited amount of time. I'm going to move on to Bill from Kailua. Bill, you're on the air.
[00:58:52] Caller: Yes, good morning. For years, since this water question has become critical matter for the community, I've been watching the terrific run-off into the oceans and I was wondering if there's any program of creating supplementary catchments around the island.
[00:59:12] Dick Cox: Okay. Mike Chan.
[00:59:13] Caller: There's a vast amount of water that just runs off into the ocean.
[00:59:16] Michael Chun: I think there have been a number of studies by the university taking a look at that. One of the more in I think interesting studies was in on the, in the central area, a Pearl Harbor area where there were, talking about capturing runoff in Pearl Harbor through use of a a membrane system. And the water would then be sucked, the fresh water from the stream would be separated from the salt water of the Pearl Harbor through the use of membrane. Again, the water sounds rather complicated. It but it actually was rather complicated, but still it was um, I think more practical from the stat, when you take a look at our watersheds, they're very, very short, they're very, very steep, they're very, very narrow, so it's very difficult in Hawaii.
[01:00:00] Caller: That's a pretty deep value is.
[01:00:01] Michael Chun: Yes, I know, and well it would mean like up a valley.
[01:00:04] Dick Cox: Are we talking are we talking about a dam and a reservoir?
[01:00:07] Michael Chun: A dam and a reservoir, well it's going to make some people unhappy, you know.
[01:00:09] Dick Cox: That's right, and so so the idea though.
[01:00:11] Caller: Well, it makes you unhappy if you don't have enough water.
[01:00:13] Dick Cox: Now, that's a good point, too.
[01:00:16] Caller: I I just I I have been concerned about that for years. It seems to me there's a terrific amount of waste that that that might be captured. Thanks for listening.
[01:00:24] Dick Cox: Thank you, Bill. Uh, we have a caller from Honolulu, Tina. Tina, you're on the air.
[01:00:29] Tina: Hello, recently on the, I believe it was on Discovery Channel, they had an article, attack on the male, and it was about how certain uh pesticides including Heptachlor may break down to give compounds that behave somewhat like estrogen, they have been found in um, down below the sewage outfalls in rivers in Britain, etc. Has any testing been done here in Honolulu to see if we have any of these kind of compounds in our water?
[01:00:54] Dick Cox: Not to my knowledge.
[01:00:56] Michael Chun: This is Mike speaking.
[01:00:57] Dick Cox: Mike, should should we be doing that sort of testing, or do you do you have any thoughts on that one?
[01:01:03] Michael Chun: Really I, you know I'm I I'm vaguely aware of what um Tina is speaking about but um I'm not really sure, you know, I haven't taken any further than that.
[01:01:13] Dick Cox: Dick, do you have any thoughts? Actually testing is going on. I'm not sure if all the compounds that they're looking for, for instance, out of the uh uh sewage effluent uh that comes off of Sand Island, Honalu, and off of the Kaniohi one, by the University of Hawaii they are making studies and, we're spending substantial monies on that right now.
[01:01:35] Dick Cox: Yeah, there's an ongoing monitoring program, but what they're looking at, I think, is a question I'm not sure. Now Tina, maybe maybe you should go to a board board of water supply or water Commission meeting and and ask them that question. It's it's quite possible that uh that they're not doing it and perhaps they should, Dick. It's under the uh Department of Health.
[01:01:52] Michael Chun: Department of Health, okay, okay. Quality and EPA is the other one that's been interested in these things.
[01:01:58] Dick Cox: Thank you, Tina.
[01:01:59] Tina: Okay, thank you.
[01:02:00] Dick Cox: We have a call from Connie Ohe. John, you're on the air.
[01:02:03] Caller: Good morning. Thanks. Interesting conversation. Uh, I always get a little nervous though when I hear people talking about trying to improve nature with high-tech. I can see us becoming dependent on desalination, for example, and then a hurricane comes along and wipes out our capabilities. I'd like to hear your comments on that. Thanks much. I'll hang up and listen.
[01:02:22] Dick Cox: Thank you, John.
[01:02:23] Michael Chun: I think it's uh, it's an excellent observation. When you do, when you begin to uh uh rely on on uh technology, um, you know, we don't have perfect technology. technology from time to time will fail and, and it's a question of being in a position to to um uh back up that technology so that when you do have failure, the failure is short-term and you can continue, you know, relatively short period of time to um operate again. And and that's the same thing with, you know, a power plant uh or any other type of uh technology.
[01:02:57] Dick Cox: Anything to add to that, Dick? Uh, obviously uh, the just our board of water supply has this problem with pumps. uh they have to have uh supplementary power in order to keep them operating type of thing. We have just 30 seconds left. Is there some topic related to water use that hasn't been mentioned during the last hour that that really ought to be tossed out so that folks know that that's a part of this conversation. Dick? Well, I'd like to just make a comment going back to Mark Twain who said uh, whisky was for drinking and water was for fighting over. I like that. Mike, would you add anything to that?
[01:03:35] Michael Chun: Well, I, I just uh we we touched upon it, but we didn't really elaborate and that's the question of education. Um, you know, to to really get a handle on this and it's going to take it we're talking about time periods of generations perhaps, but we really need to begin working with our young people and through an educational process so that there's a better understanding and appreciation for conservation and for the proper use of water.
[01:04:01] Dick Cox: Is there some of that going on now in the schools, or is this something that that we as a community need to to really push for?
[01:04:07] Michael Chun: There is some going on, but I think there is a lot more that can and needs to be done.
[01:04:12] Dick Cox: Sounds good. My guests today were Richard Cox, an engineering consultant who has served on the Board of Water Supply and State Water Commission, and Dr. Michael Chan, president of Command Mesa Schools and noncompensated faculty member for the School of Public Health and Water Resources Research Center at the University of Hawaii. Today's show was produced by Susie Roth, with technical assistance from Jeff Elardi. We hope you'll turn in next week when David McLean from the University of Hawaii and another guest will talk about Hawaii's international role. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth, Aloha.
[01:04:30] Speaker 2: Today's show was produced by Susie Roth, with technical assistance from Jeff Ilardy. We hope you'll turn in next week when David McLean from the University of Hawaii and another guest will talk about Hawaii's international role. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise Radio Show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.