Balancing Individual Rights with Community Interests
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1995-09-10
Guests: John Whalen (former Director of Land Utilization, City and County of Honolulu); Don Clegg (former Director of Land Utilization, City and County of Honolulu)
Duration: 1:05:00

[00:00:00] Randall Roth: Manny Roth, Pop Radio. We're broadcast live every Sunday morning at 8:00 on KHPR 88.1 FM and KKUA 90.7 FM, and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings at 8:00 on KIFO 1380 AM. Everyone who works on this show is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public conversation. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization whose mission is to build community among all the people of Hawaii. Today's topic has to do with a basic tension that exists to some degree in every neighborhood across the state.
[00:00:35] Randall Roth: On the one side, we have the individual's right to do as he pleases with his own property. On the other side are the collective interests of the entire neighborhood. Manoa is one of the areas where this tension is particularly evident right now because of a proposed special district ordinance. It's highly technical and detailed in nature, but the basic idea is to preserve Manoa's charm and natural beauty by limiting a variety of things, such as the size and placement of new structures, the removal of mature trees, and the replacement of yards with concrete.
[00:01:08] Randall Roth: With me in the studio to discuss this topic are John Wayland and Don Clegg. John Wayland is the president of Plan Pacific here in Honolulu. He is a planning consultant involved in urban and regional planning. For five years, he was the director of the Department of Land Utilization for the city and county of Honolulu. Don Clegg is currently the president of Analytical Planning Consultants, Inc. He's involved in land use planning and processing. For four years, he was the director of the Department of Land Utilization for the city, and for five years before that, he was the chief planning officer for the Department of General Planning, again for the city and county of Honolulu.
[00:01:49] Randall Roth: John and Don, good morning.
[00:01:52] John Whalen: Good morning, Randy.
[00:01:52] Don Clegg: Good morning.
[00:01:53] Randall Roth: John, why don't you start off by explaining that our topic today is really much broader than just what is going on in Manoa. It's not as though that's the only neighborhood that's experiencing what I call this tension.
[00:02:09] John Whalen: Right. I think there are a lot of neighborhoods throughout Oahu, and even going beyond the island of Oahu to other parts of the state or to the mainland, there is a kind of a renaissance of interest in neighborhood-based planning and zoning, mainly because I think as people live in more densely populated urban environments, they realize that the conditions that affect them are increasingly more important.
[00:02:44] Randall Roth: When we lived out on the range and the nearest neighbor was a horse ride away, it didn't make such a difference, but now we're more or less on top of one another.
[00:02:53] John Whalen: That's right.
[00:02:54] Randall Roth: I guess we should also make clear that community-based planning is a very broad term, and in a lot of areas around the state, people are doing community-based planning that's really focused on economic development, and that's not what we're talking about today, right?
[00:03:08] John Whalen: Yes, that's right. There are some places that are trying to stimulate jobs and job creation in communities that are, say, a major industry is leaving, and that sort of thing.
[00:03:17] Randall Roth: So both you and Don were directors of land utilization, and that's really what we're talking about is land utilization, how people are going to be able to use their own land.
[00:03:27] John Whalen: Yes.
[00:03:28] Randall Roth: Okay. Don, what's your spin on this thing? What do you think about this basic tension between the rights of the individual to do whatever he wants to do with his own property, and what the community over here on the other side feels is important so far as the collective interests of the neighborhood are concerned?
[00:03:44] Don Clegg: Well, let's sort of separate the issue into two questions. One is the need and desirability of having community input into the planning process, and there's no doubt that this is a necessary thing. And we have a lot of that, and there are a variety of mechanisms that are achieved to do this. The type of planning process that John is involved with in Manoa is one type of this thing that can be done, and that's a very involved type of process. The other, less involved, from a community standpoint, is the normal thing that we go through with public hearings and presentation of information and public input at these hearings.
[00:04:23] Don Clegg: As far as the issue that then evolves in terms of how far should you go in terms of limiting a person's right to use their property. And I don't have an answer to that. That's something which is depends upon the individuals in the community, and it would change from community to community. But I think that there are there's a need to somehow protect the right of the minority from the will of the majority.
[00:04:48] Randall Roth: So on the one hand, we do need to approach this as a community. We do need to talk about it, and we do need to figure out some limit on an individual's use of their property, but it's pretty tough figuring out exactly where to draw that line.
[00:04:59] Don Clegg: That's correct. I think there's a third element that involved here, and that is the administration of whatever comes out of the process. And to be administering 15 different zoning codes, if you will, for different areas, starts to get to be a real administrative problem for staff that are trying to work with it. There are other areas in Oahu that this is occurring. I know that there's a main street project in Waialua, but that's primarily of a commercial nature, and they're it's sort of the merchants along the street trying to get a sort of a cohesive picture, a design and image and personality for their city.
[00:05:39] Don Clegg: There's work also going on in I think in the North Shore and I know in Waipahu.
[00:05:44] Randall Roth: So you would support that sort of thing. You're just saying that they really need to watch out for the rights of the minority while they're doing this.
[00:05:51] Don Clegg: That's right, and I don't have an answer about where that is. We just kind of you just kind of feel your way through it and then hope you've done something right.
[00:05:57] Randall Roth: John, when Don talks about community input, one has to be impressed by the number of people who have gotten involved thus far in this discussion in Manoa. I know there's this organization called Malama O Manoa that has something like 3,300 members, and it's put on, I've read in different places, in one place it said four workshops, and another place it said eight workshops, but quite a few workshops already getting people talking and listening to one another about this. Uh, it's an all volunteer organization?
[00:06:26] John Whalen: Yes, it's all volunteer. Uh, and actually there have been both four and eight workshops. Actually, there've been two sessions of each workshop, but a series of four workshops. Uh, and uh, the workshops were held in at two different times so that as many people, uh, could attend as possible. We have, uh, really a lot of interest and a lot of sustained interest in this, and uh, the workshop process started really not from any assumption that there would be a special district proposed at the end, but really asking people what they liked and would like to change about Manoa.
[00:07:02] John Whalen: And, uh, it worked through the process, uh, through this series of workshops to the point now where we do have a special district proposal. It's a really difficult task, I think, to get people involved, uh, because a lot of people don't really relate to what, uh, what planning is about and, uh, don't really feel they want to spend the time in, in getting involved in this way, but, uh, this has been an extraordinary effort, I think. We've contacted every household in the valley, so there's virtually no one, I think, that can say that they hadn't really been informed about the process.
[00:07:42] John Whalen: And, uh, we just see a lot of, um, people who are are concerned about the the neighborhood in the long term, and uh, there are judgments to be made as to the uh, the individual property rights versus the community values, but there's a great deal of support for some basic uh, values that that people would like to preserve in Manoa.
[00:08:05] Randall Roth: Mhm. Don, how does the process work once the the the neighborhood itself has talked and listened and at least a strong majority of people generally support a proposal? Does the city hold a vote, or does the city look to see just how strong uh, the the minority feel about it? Or, or what happens at that point?
[00:08:26] Don Clegg: I think the the proposals would be submitted in the form of a zoning ordinance, special district ordinance, creation of a special district, uh, to the Department of Land Utilization. They have the option of saying, yeah, I'll, we'll process this on or saying, no, they don't, they want to, they don't want to proceed with it. Uh, let's assume they pass it on, then they would review it, make their suggestions, it gets submitted to the planning commission. The planning commission has a public hearing, several public hearings, uh, get the input from the public and then goes to city council, and the city council has more public hearings.
[00:08:58] Don Clegg: So there'd be three readings there, uh, each one uh, with a public hearing and then three committee hearings, uh, with each of they have their public hearings, and probably this is a very controversial area, a lot more public hearings. So, we do have a lot of public input, uh, in the formal sense. The type of public input that John is involved with right now is informal public input. It's uh, it's work sessions. It's getting together and getting ideas and putting things on paper, developing this ordinance that, that eventually would be submitted to the city council.
[00:09:28] Don Clegg: City council would vote, and it's uh, thumbs up or thumbs down, and it becomes an ordinance or, or it does not become an ordinance.
[00:09:34] Randall Roth: So the people don't vote, they just kind of uh, get this thing ready for the city council to decide whether it's a good thing or not a good thing for the people of that neighborhood.
[00:09:43] Don Clegg: That's correct.
[00:09:44] Randall Roth: Okay. A little bit ago, Don mentioned that uh, that there are other examples of community-based planning going on right now around the state. I'm told that there are some special districts that are already in place. John, um, what's the experience been with some of these special district ordinances that, uh, that already have been adopted some place or another?
[00:10:04] John Whalen: Well, the other areas covered by special districts are pretty diverse in their conditions. And Chinatown is one example of a special district that's designed to preserve the historic character of of buildings in Chinatown. And, uh, that's very different from a situation such as Manoa. Uh, other special districts include, uh, Waikiki, uh, which is very different from Manoa and, and Haleiwa, uh, Thomas Square, uh, but the two special districts that probably are most comparable to Manoa in terms of land use character are Diamond Head District and Punchbowl District. Uh, both of those are centered around the natural monuments of, uh, Diamond Head and Punchbowl, but include very large, um, extents of residential areas.
[00:10:52] Randall Roth: Mhm. Do they have similar sorts of provisions that would restrict the the size and placement of homes more so than they're already restricted by by the regular city ordinances?
[00:11:02] John Whalen: Yes, there, uh, there are requirements uh, on yards in in those, uh, two two, uh, districts in Punchbowl and and Diamond Head District, which are more than what the conventional zoning requires. Uh, that's that's one point, I think, that needs to be made is that all residential lots are affected by zoning now, and there are setback requirements, and height requirements, and and, uh, that sort of thing. Uh, the special districts don't necessarily have more detailed requirements, they just have different requirements.
[00:11:33] Randall Roth: Right. And I guess there are some areas um, where the normal ones don't get into like removal of trees, perhaps?
[00:11:40] John Whalen: Right.
[00:11:40] Randall Roth: So under the the proposed uh, special ordinance in in Manoa, uh, as I understand it, a mature tree that can be seen from the street, uh, a landowner would have to get permission before they could take that out.
[00:11:52] John Whalen: Yeah, that's the current draft, and we're working on a revised draft of of that just to, uh, clarify on what conditions.
[00:11:59] Randall Roth: Okay. Don, what do you think of this?
[00:12:00] Don Clegg: Yeah, that tree provision is in the Diamond Head uh, district as well. So it's not a it's not a startling thing, and I uh, I'm of the things that are in there, I'm really totally in favor of this uh, that part. The trees are incredibly important to us aesthetically and and environmentally. But I think the other districts that we have, if you look at them, they have a each one has a sort of unique purpose. Uh, the Diamond Head is to, to enhance Diamond Head and make sure that the surrounding uh, urbanization does not detract from the importance and the stature of Diamond Head.
[00:12:32] Don Clegg: The Punchbowl District has a similar thing, in addition, it has a view plane between Diamond Head and, uh, and Punchbowl to try, try to preserve that plane. The, uh, the other ones are, uh, though in many cases are largely commercial like your Waikiki is a, to protect an image of the tourism and it's commercial. Your, uh, Main Street Haleiwa is the same thing, it's a commercial. Their Chinatown is largely to, to create an an ambience in in their design which is which is they're largely a commercial area.
[00:13:02] Don Clegg: So, um, this is I think uh, the Manoa one is rather unique in the sense that's a district which is preserving a residential, uh, uh, design and residential uh, image if you will. There have been some other districts in uh, Ewa Villages which were looked at to again to preserve a residential type of lifestyle and residential image if you will.
[00:13:23] Randall Roth: Okay. I want to remind listeners that this is Pop Radio, and today's topic is community-based land use planning. My guests in the studio are John Wayland and Don Clegg. Each is a former director of land utilization for the city and county of Honolulu. If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders are always invited to call collect. The number again is 955-8821. And if anybody tuned in late and would like to hear the entire show, why, tonight at 8:00 on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, you'll have an opportunity to hear the entire rebroadcast. Our number again is 955-8821, and we're talking about community-based land use planning.
[00:14:11] Randall Roth: Well, there's something different but similar in, in one respect going on in in the area of Kahala. As I understand it, Don, uh, there are some covenants that run with the land, and whenever a landowner violates one of these covenants, it's not something that the city and county can, and is supposed to be enforcing, it has to be enforced by uh, the Kahala Community Association. And there have been uh, at least one and I think a couple of lawsuits over this. Do you see this as being similar to the, um, uh, community-based land use planning that we're talking about today?
[00:14:47] Don Clegg: Well, I don't think those covenants arose based upon a great deal of land use uh, planning. They arose uh, uh, from the major landowner, in this case, uh, Bishop Estate, uh, putting down some rules that all of the landowners that purchases had to abide by. The covenant is a, a, a different tool. It's a very powerful tool in some sense, a more, more powerful tool than, than the city has, because they don't have to be consistent, uh, throughout the city with it.
[00:15:15] Don Clegg: Of course, the the local special design districts are not consistent either. In Kahala, the there is a larger setback than the city would require, and there are limits to uses. You're not supposed to have boarding houses or rumors, uh, in in your homes, and it's supposed to be to keep that as a single-family, uh, home.
[00:15:34] Randall Roth: Now, you say it's supposed to be. It does it work?
[00:15:37] Don Clegg: Well, it this is a matter of enforcement, and as Bishop Estate was the major fee owner, they would tend to do the enforcing. As we've seen the land being sold in fee to to the community, the people who live in their homes, the enforcement issue has become uh, much more fluid, and it's difficult sometimes for the community to do this. There are the same type of covenants in Waialae-Iki associated with view planes, associated with heights, at the at the uh, at the uh, the way in which they calculate heights for for buildings or for their homes. And there's two lawsuits going in Waialae-Iki right now to preserve those those things.
[00:16:13] Randall Roth: Because a neighbor would would build and into the view of of someone else?
[00:16:17] Don Clegg: That's correct, and in places like Waialae-Iki, the view is uh, is everything for many of these homes and uh, they did distinctly have a set of view planes, and people have built into them. Some cases they didn't know there was this a thing. The interesting thing about the covenant is that it is something that everybody has agreed to in writing and with a contract, as differentiated from the special design districts where this is a mechanism put in by law and the majority must go along with whatever that law says, whether they agree with it or not.
[00:16:47] Don Clegg: That is not true in the covenants. When you buy a home, you read your deed, it has the covenants in there and you've agreed to abide by those covenants.
[00:16:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, in just a minute, we're going to take some some calls. Uh, John, any thoughts on what John Don has been saying?
[00:17:02] John Whalen: Yeah, I think uh, the the the issue of restrictive covenants is a another way to go and I think uh, there's sort of a balancing here because uh, restrictive covenants I think puts the burden of enforcement on the uh, on the Homeowners Association and that's very difficult to to do, uh, because it it requires, uh, resources and uh, that many communities don't have. Uh, so there needs to be a balancing in terms of what is truly in the broader community interest that ought to be in the zoning code, uh, so that the city and county would enforce it.
[00:17:39] John Whalen: And those things which are much more, uh, specific to individual lots, or the interest of individual property owners such as protection of view planes, which is really not necessarily a broader public interest issue, but, uh, mainly something that is of concern to the individual homeowners.
[00:17:57] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, we have some callers on the line. First, Barbara from Kalihi. Good morning, Barbara. Are you there, Barbara? Jeff, our director of operations, do you have Barbara someplace?
[00:18:09] Caller: Hello.
[00:18:09] Randall Roth: Hi. Good morning, Barbara.
[00:18:11] Caller: I have an question in reference to that proposed Manoa special district. I haven't really been keeping up with it, but I was just wondering, is there a core area proposed for the Manoa special district? Um, will the will the residential standards affect all areas? Um, you know, Manoa is an older area with set lots etcetera. So this is my area of concern.
[00:18:33] Randall Roth: Okay. John Wayland, you've personally been real involved in in this ongoing discussion. Uh, what do you say to Barbara?
[00:18:40] John Whalen: Well, there have been uh, I think the what we're attempting to do in Manoa is come up with a zoning ordinance that fits the existing conditions of Manoa. aren't really appropriate for for these older areas and so you have a lot of uh houses that we call grandfathered houses that were built under previous standards and couldn't be rebuilt under those standards today. So one of the things that we're attempting to do is to come up with zoning standards that that fit those the way those area those older areas were actually built.
[00:19:25] John Whalen: Uh there are places in Manoa, some Manoa was built at different times and different periods. Uh so say the lower portion of Manoa is is different in the way it was built, of there are no uh sidewalks in in many areas, the streets are narrower. In the back part of the valley, the the streets tend to be wider with sidewalks and that sort of thing. Uh what we're doing in Manoa is in this proposed special district is having a special district for the entire valley but with a set of standards that are that that fit both areas.
[00:20:01] John Whalen: In other words, uh you know, not uh to to um penalize one area at the at at the for the benefit of the other.
[00:20:10] Don Clegg: So you have precise boundaries, people can look at a map and see whether they're in the area or not, but you're trying to match these rules up with with what that area is like right now.
[00:20:20] John Whalen: That's right.
[00:20:21] Don Clegg: Is that answer your question, Barbara?
[00:20:22] Caller: That's good enough for the time.
[00:20:24] Don Clegg: Okay, thank you, Barbara. Our next caller is Sarah from Honolulu. Good morning, Sarah.
[00:20:29] Caller: Uh hello. Um I am uh going to change the subject considerably now. Uh I'm concerned about the regulations for bed and breakfast in the neighborhood. I personally feel it's nobody's business what I do in my own home, as long as I pay my taxes and uh don't bother my neighbors.
[00:20:49] Don Clegg: Okay, well, let's get Don Clegg's reaction to that. Okay, the issue here was that uh many bed and breakfast do bother the neighbor and uh with the parking and that were the concerns that uh were expressed to me when I was the director of DLU and we were I think I came in right at the beginning of that bed and breakfast controversy there.
[00:21:09] Don Clegg: And the other issue is that it's a commercial activity in a residential neighborhood. And uh as such uh it's not one of the permitted uses. Now what we had the the the the law was initiated to uh restrict bed and breakfast because of the complaints that were received by by the city and by by the council and by the department. So it does in fact the neighbors, and by and large, the the the neighborhood individuals did not want bed and breakfasts and that's why the moratorium so to speak was put on and the the uh the grandfathering uh was uh took place with the licensing that you have today. John Weyland?
[00:21:46] John Whalen: Uh yeah. Actually uh Don was the DLU director just after I was and at that at just as I was leaving DLU, we had proposed a uh a revision to the law that would allow small bed and breakfast uh establishments in residential areas. Uh I forget how many, I think was limited to two guests at a time or something of that sort or two rooms at a time. And uh we wanted to make a distinction between that type of uh use and uh say a transient vacation rental where the entire house is just rented out for short periods of time and there's no supervision.
[00:22:22] John Whalen: I personally feel that bed and breakfast uh operations are are okay. I mean, they're just like any other residential use and they tend to be kind of quiet uses, but uh Don is correct in that when we went to we made that proposal to uh the City Council, the City Council decided to um to prohibit all future bed and breakfast operations in in all residential areas.
[00:22:47] Don Clegg: I think there's another uh, we've we have a uh concept or philosophy in in handling our visitor industry and that is we concentrate it in in a few areas, concentrated in Waikiki obviously, uh in uh, Kaelina and so on, a few places around the island. We do not generally encourage and do not have hotels elsewhere. This is different than than most cities who will permit hotels and transit vacation rentals if you will, in uh in almost a maybe any area of their city.
[00:23:16] Don Clegg: See, I'm I'm a bed and breakfast fan when I go to uh England and to Europe, uh that's where I stay. I just get one one bed and breakfast place after another and they're delightful. They have a a transient uh movement of transient people. What you have here, and because it's we don't we're not moving around our island's too small, you end up with a sort of a mini hotel, little mini hotels stuck in in the neighborhoods. I think that's the thing that was uh irritating to the people. Okay. John Weyland?
[00:23:44] John Whalen: Uh there is one way actually that uh some of these smaller uh places or smaller hotels of bed and breakfast can be established and that's if if someone has an historic uh house on the historic register, and the Manoa Valley Inn is as a matter of fact is an example of that. And uh there have been other proposals for some of these historic homes to be converted for um bed and breakfast up uh places.
[00:24:07] Don Clegg: Sarah, I I'm not sure that's the answer you wanted. but it's a good investment then, wouldn't it? If you would owned a home that was of a special value, then you get special treatment.
[00:24:16] John Whalen: Well, the if if you place a home on the historic register, you also have restrictions you have to abide by because I I mean any alterations that house have to be approved by the state historic preservation office. So it's it's a it's a trade-off in a way.
[00:24:29] Caller: Well, I have learned that there's only about 70 people registered as bed and breakfast people. And there must be thousands on this island. Uh it seems as though as soon as you abide by the law, then this year they've added $100 tax to pay, which seems to be a punishment for being registered.
[00:24:46] Don Clegg: That's a license fee.
[00:24:48] Caller: All right, but why are we being Why would they be punished for that? Because you're registered, you have to pay that in addition to the other insults that you had to put up with when you originally were inspected. My house like uh going to the school.
[00:25:01] Don Clegg: Let's see what Don Clegg says about it. No, I I agree that the the issue is enforcement and uh we do have some different rules between bed and breakfast and strict transient vacation rentals. Well, this is not, you know, it would not be as obnoxious as a transient. If you don't like the bed and breakfast people in your home, you asked don't invite them in again, they're only here for a short time. Sarah, you've raised a very interesting aspect of our our topic and and I think we need to move on, but I really appreciate your call.
[00:25:29] Caller: Well, in other words, you're side stepping the issue. Well, I just I just think it's time to be realistic about this whole thing and let people just pay their taxes and operate openly and and legally.
[00:25:39] Don Clegg: I think they were real clear, they just didn't have the answer that that you wanted to hear.
[00:25:42] Caller: Well, they seem to have the answer when they licensed them.
[00:25:45] Don Clegg: Okay. Thank you, Sarah. Our next caller is Duke from Waikiki. Good morning, Duke.
[00:25:50] Duke: Good morning. Uh Hi Don Clegg.
[00:25:53] Don Clegg: Good morning.
[00:25:53] Duke: Don knows me. Uh listen, I just have a few comments here to make and get a response maybe from Don and and maybe even John because they were DLU directors.
[00:26:02] Don Clegg: Can you keep them real short?
[00:26:03] Duke: Yes, in the early 70s the community did get together in Waikiki and they studied the carrying capacity of Waikiki and that's how the Waikiki Special District came about. This was a a large group of citizens and also this hotel industry and planners and city officials and residents, everybody. Now that it seems that when the DLU director uh enforces this uh Waikiki Special District, it seems the DLU director is looking to how to bring violators into compliance without even studying the carrying capacity or the reasons why the law came into effect.
[00:26:41] Duke: And it just bothers me because if we if we had studied Okay, if we have studied this and come up with a law and the DLU does not enforce the law, what's the purpose of having the Waikiki Special District in the first place?
[00:26:55] Don Clegg: Duke, let's let's get some reactions to that because one of Sarah's points was that there isn't solid enforcement of rules out there and and I hear that as part of your comment. Don, to what extent can the city effectively enforce the rules that are on the books right now? Well, we have some very uh strong enforcement uh mechanisms on the books right now. The problem is catching people. And uh, and I've always said that uh the best policeman we have out there is your friendly neighbor, because that's the person who's more likely to turn you in than anybody else.
[00:27:29] Don Clegg: We do not have inspectors and staff to go out searching neighborhoods looking for violations, so the violations basically come to us, either because somebody brings in a plan and we say, how that plan doesn't doesn't match or somebody turns you in. Now, I can just tell you, we tried everything that we have, we could do to enforce uh all the regulations in Waikiki. Uh, it's like a the traffic cop. they can't get everybody who's speeding, but they try to get what they can. And when you do catch and make examples of some people, then uh other people tend to to not to speed.
[00:28:04] Don Clegg: Now, the enforcement mechanism that we have, I think are rather severe. If you get caught the first time there's a daily fine that can be probably around $100 a day. If you caught again, it goes up to 200, 400 up to $1000 a day. That fine may be attached. If you don't pay it within six months, that fine can be attached to your driver's license, to your car registration, and your tax bills. And if you don't pay up, you don't get your car registered. So, there are some strong strong laws on the books that try to enforcement.
[00:28:32] Don Clegg: The issue is there is so much of it, and we don't have did not have the people to go out and and really uh police the area completely. Don, if if a neighbor calls to complain about another neighbor, uh does he or she have to give you a name or can it be anonymous? They can it can be anonymous. Uh we do promise them if they give us a name that we will not reveal it, but it can be anonymous and we investigate every single complaint that every came into the department while I was there.
[00:29:01] Don Clegg: Uh, just one fast thing. Mr. Clay in the past and I have talked on this, but we have one uh I won't name the the structure, but we've had one hotel that has been cited five times for past building or zoning violations. And instead of really enforcing the law, Mr. Clegg has said that he wants to bring them into compliance, so he grants a building permit or a variance after they've already done their illegal buildings. And I don't I don't think that makes a sham of the law instead of forcing them to tear out what they do, he gives them then the variance and then they become legal.
[00:29:36] Don Clegg: Let me let me ask, I remember Don is the one who made uh somebody in cut the top of their house off because it was a couple feet too too high. Yes, but that's a that's a minor. That's a minor. No, no, I know. It's not a a major hotel. Let's get let's get uh Don's reaction to your comment. thing to uh any hotels in Waikiki because there's not a uh there's not a hardship issue there.
[00:30:38] Don Clegg: But you you're correct, what we are trying to do is get compliance with the codes rather than to punish uh uh people. We have a little different slant on it than possibly uh of the the the the legal system of the courts, but, and if we get compliance, then all is forgiven, and we that's what we trying to do. And I I just can't put my finger on that particular hotel, maybe because there were more than one that fell into that category.
[00:31:02] Don Clegg: But I can assure you that uh as far as trying to make the law, uh comply people comply with the law, I have a lot more detractors on the side of those people who who are irritated because I did, than those people who irritated because I didn't. Okay, well, thank you, I'll just I'll just hang up, but I'll tell you down just to refresh your memory, it's the Royal Garden Hotel in Waikiki. Oh I'm familiar with okay. They're they're in now for some permits and variants.
[00:31:28] Don Clegg: And they're being granted even though they've already done the building and put in a restaurant in marble, and now they're finding out they have to go in for building permits and variances and in order not to forcing to take it out. the DLU is making compromises. Duke, we appreciate your call. We don't want to get into a a real specific controversy. I don't think that's uh that's the point of our conversation today. I want to remind listeners that this is pop radio. Today's topic is community-based land use planning.
[00:31:55] Don Clegg: It has to do with the the tension between the rights of the individual to do as he pleases with his own property versus the collective interest of the neighborhood. Our guests are John Wayland and Don Clegg, both formerly was director of the uh Department of Urban or Land Utilization for the City and County of Honolulu. Currently John is president of Plan Pacific. He's an urban and regional planner and Don currently is president of Analytical Planning Consultants, Inc involved in land use planning and processing.
[00:32:26] Don Clegg: If you'd like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821 and we have a lot of lines open and so we would invite you. We would encourage you to call us at 955-8821. John, you're involved in Malama O Manoa and I've read someplace that uh you were quoted as saying a lot of the folks who are wanting a a special district ordinance there are concerned for aesthetic reasons. They want it to look the way it looks right now. But you're more interested for environmental reasons. Could you explain that a little bit?
[00:33:03] John Whalen: Yeah, I I think well first of all people that uh relate to what they see and I think that's the reason why many people are looking at the aesthetics of the um of the conditions in Manoa. But uh I also have some concern about uh the loss of trees and increasing lot coverage in in places like Manoa uh for environmental reasons uh because as we we cover up more of the area and remove the trees um in especially in a high rainfall area as many of our valleys are, it's going to increase the stormwater runoff.
[00:33:39] John Whalen: And Manoa Stream has uh flooded in the recent past and uh some of the houses along the stream have been affected. And uh we need to to look for ways to to retain the the green space in in a valley like that simply to avoid the the problems of um of flooding that will occur uh with the cumulative loss of of uh trees and and and uh yard areas. There has been a lot of study about the the value of trees and uh they do have a definite impact on on uh stormwater runoff, so.
[00:34:20] Don Clegg: So it makes a lot of sense but on the other hand, if you've got somebody who's who's planning an expansion to their house, but there's a great big old tree right where they want the the new bedroom or family room or whatever to be, we've got a a conflict here.
[00:34:34] John Whalen: Right, and uh that's what uh our special district uh proposed special district ordinance uh makes a provision for that. Uh in cases where the tree would preclude any reasonable use of the property that they could make otherwise. Uh and and also would allow the relocation for the relocation of the tree or the replacement of the tree with uh another tree.
[00:34:56] Don Clegg: So, you're listening you're listening to people's concerns and in trying to adjust the plan to to fit those concerns. Sure. Okay. Well, we have a caller from Manoa, Robert. Good morning, Robert.
[00:35:06] Robert: Uh, good morning. I see uh Manoa having uh two particular plagues. I wonder how the uh special district plan would take care of them. One is the parking of students during the day and the other is the parking of residents in rental units in the in the older districts with narrow streets at night.
[00:35:29] Don Clegg: Well, there's the plague. Don Clegg. Well, uh I'm not specifically familiar with the Manoa situation you have, but there's a similar one in Kahala where one of these very large houses was built, and I think it has uh 18 bedrooms and something like 10 baths. Now, that was not exactly built as a family uh house, I don't believe. Uh there's kind of, you know, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, maybe it's a duck.
[00:36:21] Don Clegg: So uh but they do claim and have been able to show the inspectors that there is a family living there and that all the people, they fit in the law and they do. Now, one of the biggest issues there, of course, is the parking, when you get that many uh family units, even if they're related, everyone has a car and the parking is uh guess surreal and it there's the solution we're trying to trying to get is to have them park on the property, but the laws say that you wouldn't get enough parking to handle a a by building like their house like that, uh with our existing laws.
[00:37:00] Don Clegg: What are you talking about doing about parking in Manoa? Is is there something that can be done?
[00:37:05] John Whalen: Well, I I don't think the special district is necessarily the way to to address that. The the the real problem is that the University of Hawaii doesn't provide enough parking on on campus, and that's been a a continuing problem. Uh, or provide some other way for people to get to the campus uh through uh Like rapid transit, maybe? There was a there was an opportunity shot to to take care of some of these problems.
[00:37:41] Don Clegg: Uh, but a sort of a companion way of of addressing that problem is is to uh monitor and and enforce the parking regulations around the the campus. Uh, some, in fact, many cities that have uh large campuses like this, uh have resident parking sticker programs, which um prohibit parking by anyone who doesn't have a sticker during certain hours of the day.
[00:38:00] Speaker 1: parking, are they cleared or something?
[00:38:01] John Whalen: Oh, yeah. I think Well, that's uh you you well, there there are areas where, in fact, the cars are parked along what's called the sidewalk area, and that's not supposed to be legal to begin with. So, I think there are uh at least I've seen a lot of cars parked along these sidewalk areas, so you can't even walk past uh some of these uh along some of these streets because of the parked cars. And uh that's one way of of controlling uh the use of the streets uh and actually the congestion of streets with with parking.
[00:38:15] John Whalen: Uh a lot of the parking is illegal to begin with, so I think a lot of it is uh a matter of enforcement and having having cars ticketed.
[00:38:22] Randall Roth: So, you're suggesting this is an enforcement problem, that there are already rules against that, but evidently they're not being enforced?
[00:38:27] John Whalen: Right. And I think it's probably in part an acknowledgement that there is uh such a dearth of parking on campus that uh, you know, I guess they're afraid that if they they enforce it, um, you know, there's going to be a huge outcry.
[00:38:39] Randall Roth: So, even if Robert called the appropriate office and complained, they probably would do nothing?
[00:38:44] John Whalen: Oh, I think probably if people complained uh they would be there are ticketing, but then they'll just come back.
[00:38:50] Randall Roth: They'd be transitory. They be ticket them one week and then next week they'll be back again. Huh. Robert, does that answer your uh question?
[00:38:56] Robert: I guess the answer is there's no hope.
[00:38:59] Randall Roth: The answer is no answer.
[00:39:01] John Whalen: I wanted to uh comment if I could. Okay. Thank you, Robert. This is Don Cleg talking. About the trees, uh and I see that somebody's calling from the Big Island, but uh uh we there is a general law in the city that uh says you really can't cut down trees in uh and particular sizes. And I know that for example, the state wanted to take out the monkey pod trees in front of the uh courthouse on Hotel Street there and they they said something about the trees are growing into the parking in the basement and there's a problem and and I just refused. I said, no, that they they have a lot of monkey pods there in front of the YMCA, Armed Forces YMCA, the building now and it just would destroy it. They did not take the trees down, everything seems to be working fine. Our problem has been really uh in subdivisions also where if you plant trees on people's property and the first thing you know, they've taken them down. So, uh we we try to make insist that the developers put the trees in the wells on city property and and maintain them that way. Mhm. I know one of the interesting things about the conversation in Manoa is that when some people complain about this special ordinance discussion, they find out that there are already rules against uh whatever it is that they're concerned about, right, John?
[00:40:08] John Whalen: Yeah. Yeah, that's uh it's partly uh an education process for everyone, I think.
[00:40:12] Randall Roth: Okay. We've got a couple of people waiting on the line. First, Robin in Kailua. Good morning, Robin.
[00:40:17] Robin: Hi, hello John and Don. This is Robin Foster. And uh I I just uh like to say, Randy, this is a great program. I'm glad you're doing it. What are you doing up this early, Robin? Listening to you.
[00:40:29] Randall Roth: Thank you. I'm honored. Uh and I'd just like to to to uh let people know that there is going to be a conference on community based planning in Hawaii involving um not only Honolulu groups but uh groups from all the neighbor islands and that's scheduled for October 28th at the East-West center, it's a Saturday. There'll be exhibits from different groups uh including Malamo Winowa and presentations and discussions of uh how how to improve and uh and make legitimate more of these community based planning efforts.
[00:41:00] Randall Roth: Okay. So uh you can register by calling the uh office of the American Institute of Architects and it's being sponsored by them, by the American Planning Association, Main Street Council of Hawaii and several other groups. That's October 28th at the East-West Center? That's right. Okay, great. Thank you, Robin. Bye. We have a caller from the Big Island, David. Good morning, David.
[00:41:20] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Um I want to change the subject just a little bit. Um home rule and and community planning is is real good, except sometimes it doesn't work as far as conservation goes. Over here on the Big Island, we have three little streams that have one of the native fish in it, and the state wants to put the streams into the conservation district rather than the agriculture which it's in. And that would restrict what goes into the streams and what's take now the streams by the farmers. And the the mayor here is against that and he says, Oh, these fish are very plentiful here. Well, this is the only place in the whole world where the fish are plentiful. You know, there's it's like a 30 mile stretch of coast and this is their last stand.
[00:42:03] Caller: But the local people say, hey, there are already a place. You know, what's rare about them? And they they don't have the perspective that maybe the state government has.
[00:42:11] Randall Roth: So maybe the the biggest community of all here in Hawaii, all of the people in the state have a real interest in protecting that stream, whereas the people who are right there next to it, uh, their personal best interests are are served by doing something different?
[00:42:25] Caller: Yeah, exactly.
[00:42:27] Randall Roth: Let's get some reactions to that. Don Cleg?
[00:42:30] Don Clegg: Yes. Mhm. I have to admit that's kind of a kind of a toughy, uh and I think that's that issue is probably replicated in in a number of areas, although I think in in many instances, it's the issue is reversed. It's the people next to the stream or next to the resource that want to preserve it and it's a general public who are not uh who want to take it and have it used for some other purpose.
[00:43:21] Randall Roth: It's still kind of the tension between the the bigger group and then the smaller group that's more directly affected.
[00:43:27] Don Clegg: That's certain. That's a an issue which is prevalent not just here, throughout the nation uh that you you have some smaller active groups who who a particular cause and uh the general population is is less interested in it and and um I don't have a I have a solution uh at all for you in this. And I don't know enough about the situation.
[00:43:49] Randall Roth: John Wayland, any thoughts for David?
[00:44:01] John Whalen: Well, I I think he raised a good point that it's not necessarily um you know, it shouldn't be a doctrinaire position that that all planning should come and necessarily from the grassroots. There are some overriding uh public issues or public interest issues that uh that we look to uh to government to um to provide guidance on. Uh, but of course there are a lot of I'm so sure statewide interest organizations, too, that would be supporting the state in in uh preserving those streams. So, uh the state government isn't is not alone. I don't think in that position.
[00:45:11] Randall Roth: David, appreciate your call. Thank you. When we remind listeners that this is Pop radio. Today's topic is community-based land use planning. Our guests in the studio are John Wayland and Don Cleg, both is uh or both are former directors of the Department of uh Land utilization for the city and county of Honolulu. John currently is president of Plan Pacific. He's an urban and regional planner and Don is currently president of Analytical Planning Consultants Inc. He's involved in land use planning and processing.
[00:45:43] Randall Roth: If you'd like to ask them a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821 and we do have some open lines. If you tuned in late, and would like to hear the show in its entirety tonight on KIFO, that's 1380 AM, beginning at 8 o'clock, you can hear the entire rebroadcast. Again, this is Pop Radio, and our topic is community-based land use planning. Uh, John, is there anything um along these lines going on on the neighbor islands uh that you're aware of that um offers a different aspect of of the issue or or anything that that we might want to bring into the conversation?
[00:46:52] John Whalen: Well, I was uh just last month, I I was uh in Maui at the invitation of Maui Historical Society to uh talk with them about a a a kind of a special district for the town of Wailuku. They do have a a a sort of a limited historic district uh um zoning in Wailuku and they they would like to to or this this group uh that I spoke to would like to expand to include some larger areas of uh Wailuku.
[00:47:24] John Whalen: Uh, they were interested in Manoa's experience um uh in this uh this type of thing and um it's an example of um programs like they're they're they're main street programs that are take a slightly different. It's more of a, rather than a regulatory approach, although they do get involved in in advocating uh change zoning regulations to sort of protect the historic character of a commercial area. They're also involved in sort of more proactive efforts to get um property owners to make improvements to property and fix up paint of commercial store facades. Hilo has got a a program like this, uh Wailuku's main street program is very successful, probably the most successful in the state.
[00:48:48] John Whalen: Uh, and there are some other examples. Haliimaile has a program like this.
[00:48:53] Randall Roth: We're going to do a show later in the year where we're going to focus on on those sorts of of community-based planning projects that are a little bit more uh economic in nature as opposed to land use restrictive in nature. We've got a couple of people on the line. First, Jerome from Honolulu. Good morning, Jerome.
[00:49:32] Caller: Good morning.
[00:49:34] Randall Roth: Do you have a question or a brief comment for our guests?
[00:49:37] Caller: I have a I have both uh brief comment and a question for both of our guests. Okay. Uh, I've been working on the concept or introducing the concept of greenways, which are uh linear corridors for non-motorized transit, which also incorporate environmental preservation issues. And I'm wondering if our guests are familiar with this concept and what do they think about this concept for the island?
[00:50:12] Randall Roth: Okay. John Wayland?
[00:50:15] John Whalen: Well, I think it's great. And uh we have actually Malama Manoa has proposed a the beginning of a greenway system along Manoa stream. Uh, the first increment would be a pathway to link uh Manoa Marketplace area with the University of Hawaii. And I think that would be a very well-used uh bikeway walkway. Uh, Manoa Stream is actually quite beautiful. I mean the parts that haven't been channelized with concrete and uh it's very kind of ununappreciated because people don't get a chance to see it. Don Cleg?
[00:51:30] Don Clegg: Putting a greenway into an existing neighborhood or existing built-up area certainly is difficult because of the the property rights and so on. We've we tried that uh concept uh when I was director in developing cluster housing for new housing and you can start to put some of that uh that in where they uh you have a walkway pass where people can within their cluster, within their neighborhood, uh have uh areas that uh that they can uh uh take a walk in.
[00:52:18] Randall Roth: So with a a new city like Kapolei, you can do that sort of thing, but old areas like Manoa, it's very difficult.
[00:52:27] Don Clegg: Well, I think because of the of the preemption of of the land by by all the owners. Now, the even the issue in Kapolei is was very difficult because uh the the densities that the developers were trying to achieve in order to reduce the prices were such that you you didn't have much greenway left and there was a there was a constant uh uh tugging a tug of war to to get enough uh greenway pass that we have in in to design the homes kind of around these. A lot of people also didn't want them in the sense that they didn't want this public uh uh area next in their backyard. They they like the security of having the backyard uh uh next to another backyard.
[00:53:45] Randall Roth: As opposed to a lot of people coming and Coming around. And uh, I the developers I had said, I can't sell houses. People don't want to be uh near a public uh greenway. And so, uh, again, we have the conflicts of of the desires of individuals on either side. Jerome, does that answer your question?
[00:54:21] Caller: Well, not exactly. I I'd really like to get a little bit more specific uh in terms of uh their opinions or their answers. What I'm really interested in is what do they think of the value of a statewide or pursuing a statewide master plan for greenways on the island. I realized in Honolulu it's going to be more of a retrofit, but for islands like the Big Island and Maui, I think Maui is really taking the lead in this role. Also, there's quite a bit of documentation out there that just show the increased value uh properties uh values increasing because of these greenway adjacency.
[00:55:34] Randall Roth: Let's see what what John Wayland says.
[00:55:40] John Whalen: Well, I I think I think it is possible to do this uh in in areas particularly that are going to be developing in the future. I think we need to I to set aside those areas uh now before uh they do become developed in the those kinds of uh pressures that Don was talking about occur.
[00:56:20] John Whalen: Uh, they are the new development proposed development plans for Eva and Central Oahu have a greenway system incorporated into them and the greenways, I think are more again than aesthetic value, they really should be seen as as transportation corridors. Uh you could use uh drainage ways as as um part of this greenway system. And the idea of having them as a network, I mean, a planned network as opposed to something that just occurs at random, I think is um uh a really a great opportunity.
[00:57:00] Speaker 1: 35-unit apartment house, and yet they come in with a special conditional use permit. At the same time, they seem to be saying to other people that you follow the rules, but we're exempt from the rules.
[00:57:14] Randall Roth: Okay, let's get a quick reaction on that, and then we're going to have to wrap the show up, John.
[00:57:18] John Whalen: Well, I think you're referring to there there's a state statute that allows a waiver of rules as applied to housing for low and moderate-income people. And I'm not sure what the current status is of that proposal for Vancouver Drive. I don't know whether that's still current or not, but that's a project that fits under those under that statute.
[00:57:22] John Whalen: Uh, but even within uh the city of Honolulu, I think there are opportunities to really improve our public rights of way uh from what they are now uh by by planting more street trees. I think a lot of our streets could be narrowed in in width uh so that there's more room for uh for sidewalks and uh for for bikeways uh for example. And uh the those kind those ideas have been proposed. That's actually one of the thrusts of the Manoa Special District is to prevent street widenings from occurring in areas where uh it's really not necessary.
[00:57:44] John Whalen: It was a decision the legislature made because of the overriding need for for low and moderate-income housing and that that zoning rules could be set aside in those for those situations.
[00:57:59] Don Clegg: That's a big bone of contention for me as the state coming around and setting the city's zoning rules aside, and they do it on a regular basis. I can just tell you that I don't believe that that the city should be exempt from its own rules. I think if it's good enough for the population to abide by, it's good enough for the city to abide by. And I've had a lot many many in-house battles in the city administration in trying to enforce city rules on city projects.
[00:58:25] Randall Roth: Okay, and with that, we're going to have to wrap up this show. This is Pop Radio. Our guests today have been John Wayland and Don Clegg, both former directors of the Department of Land Utilization for the city and county of Honolulu. Both are urban and regional planners. Okay. Jerome, we're we're running out of time and we've got uh someone else who's been waiting on the line. We're going to have to move on, but we sure appreciate your call. Thank you. Thank you very much. This is Pop Radio. Our guests today have been John Whelan and Don Clegg, both former directors of the Department of Land Utilization for the city and county of Honolulu.
[00:58:37] Randall Roth: uh both are urban and regional planners. Uh we have on the line someone from Manoa, a resident of Manoa. Good morning. Our producer is Suzy Roth, our director of operations Jeff Alardi. Our production staff includes Wally and John Roth.
[00:58:47] Speaker 3: Good morning, sir.
[00:58:48] Randall Roth: Next week we're going to talk about Hawaii's economy. Will it get better in time or does someone have to do something about it? What do you have for us today?
[00:58:53] Speaker 3: Uh I was just wondering the liability issue if you refuse to uh let people cut down huge trees that are in Manoa, the fact that we are in a hurricane area, what would happen when these trees come down, cutting power lines, uh damaging personal property? Who's liable if the city refuses your permission to cut down these trees?
[00:58:56] Randall Roth: We have Seiji Naya, Paul Brubaker, and Dave McLein. Um, did you have a comment, Don?
[00:59:01] Speaker 1: I just want to say that not every group that's community-based planning is as fortunate to have somebody like John Whelan spearheading it with them because if they did, then we'd have a lot better community-based planning.
[00:59:12] Randall Roth: Okay, and with that word of aloha, That's something nice about me, John, we'll be We we sign off. Thank you very much for listening, Aloha. Thank you very much for listening. Aloha. Interesting question. Let me get an answer to that and we'll come back to you if we have time. John Wayland.
[00:59:44] John Whalen: Uh well, one of the provisions of the proposed special district is that trees can be removed if they are a threat to public health and safety.
[00:59:55] Randall Roth: Also, that's a direct response to this concern. You can you can always trim them, too.
[00:59:58] John Whalen: And can trim them also, yeah.
[01:00:00] Randall Roth: Okay. You had another question?
[01:00:04] Speaker 3: Yes, number uh the other question I have, and I live around the the Vancouver area where the city is putting on