Ethnic humor
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1998-03-22
Guests: Jonathan Okamura (Specialist, Student Equity, Excellence & Diversity Program, University of Hawaii); Patrick Downes (songwriter for Frank DeLima)
Duration: 1:04:46

[0:00:02] Randall Roth: Aloha, this is Randy Roth, host of the Price of Paradise show. We're broadcast live Sunday mornings on KHPR and KKUA and then rebroadcast Sunday evenings beginning at 8 o'clock on KIFO. Everyone who works to bring this program to you is a volunteer who believes in the importance of lively and informed public dialogue. We believe the brightness of any community's future is directly related to the level of activity in its marketplace of ideas. Our sponsor is the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that encourages grass-root efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii and administers charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Our topic this morning is ethnic humor. Some call it the glue that holds together our island community. Others see it in negative terms. With me in the studio this morning is UH ethnic studies professor, Jonathan Okamura, and Hawaii Catholic Herald editor, Patrick Downs.
[0:00:59] Randall Roth: Pat, good morning. Good morning. Pat, I know you do a great job as editor of the Catholic Herald, but I think a lot of folks here in Hawaii think of you first and foremost as Frank De Lima's primary writer. Uh, a lot of his songs, his his parodies, his skits are your handy work. How long have have you worked with Frank?
[0:01:19] Patrick Downes: Frank and I go back a long time. We we go back. Actually, we were in the seminary together, which which was about in the late 60s. Okay, so uh we did music with the Catholic youth organization. He was a Hawaiian musician and singer, and I played guitar for him. So we we learned a lot about Hawaiian music at that time. And then over the years, we we we sort of uh met uh on variety of things and when he started his uh uh his career as a comedian, well, he needed some help and I was there to help him. So, I
[0:01:55] Randall Roth: Was it all planned? Did you sit down at some point in time and say here's the type of of performer you're going to be, the type of material we're going to to to together be putting together and presenting, or did this just evolve?
[0:02:11] Patrick Downes: It it really kind of evolved. He was he was a Hawaiian musician, he had a he had a trio, and did Hawaiian typical Hawaiian songs, but he also had this this this very funny shtick that he would perform. And it was the time of uh bugga bugga and and Kanaka comedy. And uh Hula Records was watching the show one one night and and said well we have enough here for a comedy album. So uh they recorded Frank, and his first album was a Taste of Malasadas. Uh, Frank didn't have enough to fill the album, so he asked me to to write a few numbers. I did, we filled the album. And he became an overnight success as a comedian. He became from singer to comedian.
[0:02:52] Patrick Downes: Uh, the trouble was uh his second album, he had no material. He had he had used it all in his first, and so he asked me to uh to help him write stuff. We did. Uh based on the strength of his first album, I mean, he was the second album was successful and I thought, well, this this isn't too hard. And from then we just kind of evolved.
[0:03:10] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, I think there there might be one or two listeners, and probably not too many more out there, who aren't familiar with Frank's work and and therefore your work. So we've got uh a verse from actually it's one of his older songs. We looked for our ethnology CD this morning, we couldn't find it. But uh we've got a bunch of the older tapes and we have a song called Hawaii Sleeps Tonight. Jeff, why don't you roll some of that and we'll give the folks out there a sense for uh Patrick and and Frank's work.
[0:03:41] Caller: In the village, in with more village. Someone non sleep tonight. Hush my pup, speed don't park my doggie, or you'll be dinner tonight. I... Manong the toilet. I... Manong the toilet. Manakea Street, oh Manakea Street. China man he play majong tonight. Manakea Street, oh Manakea Street. China man he lose money tonight. I lose money. I lose money. I lose money. Kochi wa, chot tomade kudasai. Kochi wa, chot tomade kudasai. In the city, in Pearl City, Japanese karaoke tonight. I... I lose money. I lose money. Kea Moku, oh Kea Moku. Koreans work tonight. Bye, I'm drinking. In Kaluwa, down in Kaluwa, the Howlies talk tonight. I make conversation with clarification and consideration of my reputation and quantification in my situation and some sub-ulation and standardization.
[0:06:05] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, that's uh two minutes on the nose of Hawaii Sleeps Tonight. And uh Patrick, I've got some questions about that I want to ask you, but let me go to to our other guest, uh John Okamura, you're um uh with Ethnic Studies, know some other things that we'll tell the folks about uh in just a little bit. But first of all, without commenting on that specific piece, um you have an article in this morning's Advertiser and I can tell from it that you have some concerns about ethnic humor in general, at least. Uh why don't you share with those cheris share with us those general concerns and then we'll talk a little bit about that specific piece.
[0:06:45] Jonathan Okamura: I think there should be some uh boundaries and are imposed by comedians about the kinds of uh jokes that they make about different groups and I I I guess Frank must be aware of these boundaries because if uh he's toned down his act as was stated in the advertiser article earlier this uh month over the years, then he is cognizant that there are concerns being expressed by people in the community and particularly Filipino Americans. And that's my concern that there has to be a sense of responsibility towards the people who are the um subjects of these jokes.
[0:07:21] Randall Roth: Now, there should be boundaries. Did that particular song cross the boundary in your opinion?
[0:07:28] Jonathan Okamura: Well, if you look at the different groups that were included, if as speaking as a Japanese American, there's nothing offensive in that um the the commentary about Japanese, they live in Pearl City, they go to karaoke bars, there's nothing terribly wrong about that, but the Filipino one, I would be concerned about insofar as that it included this exaggerated accent and in Hawaii, we had the Manuel Fragante case about 10 years ago, which he was uh denied a job with the city and county because of his accent. And despite court appeals, he lost that case. And I think by spreading this um representation of Filipinos that have the that they have especially strong accents, that this can contribute to that sort of situation.
[0:08:18] Randall Roth: So it's I guess generally good that somebody like Frank De Lima and and Patrick Downs in doing the writing would would poke fun at at every group that that you belong to, I belong to, they belong to, but there are some negative stereotypes you would say that that do some damage to the members of that particular group.
[0:08:39] Jonathan Okamura: And also the fact that not all groups have the same status in Hawaii, there are groups that are much uh more powerful politically, economically, others that are much more disadvantaged, that are marginalized, these are the ones that are much more vulnerable uh to these kinds of jokes about themselves, other groups can just laugh them off.
[0:08:57] Randall Roth: So you're you're less concerned about uh somebody like Frank De Lima poking fun at at howlies for example, as compared to Filipinos, for example.
[0:09:07] Jonathan Okamura: Yes, yes. So it kind of depends on quote the target of the humor.
[0:09:12] Randall Roth: Patrick Downs, uh you wrote that piece and an awful lot of of other uh uh material for Frank. Um and I've got to I got to be fair to my listening audience. I'm a a fan of Frank De Lima's. In fact, John was saying he likes a lot of of Frank De Lima material, but he feels that there are times when when bounds are are crossed. Uh what's your reaction as you hear that?
[0:09:35] Patrick Downes: I I would agree that there are times when bounds are crossed when when uh the humor is not out to for for laughs but it's more to be little or to mock somebody. Um, the the idea behind this song was was trying to uh sort of put put a uh exaggerated, maybe microphone on the entire state and to hear what's happening on a given evening, uh, ethnic-wise. And and Frank and I tried Frank actually co-wrote this with me. We we tried to uh uh treat everyone with a very broad uh stereotypical kind of brush and uh and uh everything is is exaggerated. Uh we we we tried to make everything equal, all all accents being, you know, equally exaggerated. Um, and each uh image of the of each ethnic group, the the common uh one that uh you know, every everyone accepts is not not necessarily being true, but the one that's out there.
[0:10:42] Randall Roth: So you're you're conscious of the fact that there there are boundaries and so as you're writing this, you're saying to one another or to yourself, have have I crossed the boundary here?
[0:10:52] Patrick Downes: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're we're always conscious of of of offending people.
[0:10:57] Randall Roth: Are the boundaries changing? Uh John mentioned there was an article in the paper a week or two ago suggesting that the Frank in particular had uh kind of pulled back a bit. He wasn't quite out there the way he had been in the past because of what the paper called political correctness. Uh is that actually consciously going on on your side of of this?
[0:11:19] Patrick Downes: Well, not we I mean, we don't address it uh each and every time we get together. But yeah, the um and his comments about um you know, groups being unequal as as in far of status in Hawaii, the the Filipinos would is an excellent example. Um and uh we if you if you examine all the the material that we wrote, you know, some some groups get it harder than others. Uh and I would say the Japanese and the Howlies especially. But yeah, we have to be careful.
[0:11:51] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, John, also in the papers lately, and and you mentioned it in your article this morning, uh a City Council person over on Kauai who is a mayoral candidate uh Mary Thronis, I believe her name is, was quoted uh not long ago as as saying the county building looks like a Manila taxi cab and she suggested uh that uh she or someone would hew down expenses. And a lot of folks found these expressions uh offensive. Do you think of this as being in the same ballpark as what we're talking about when we talk about ethnic humor? Or is this just a a completely separate set of issues?
[0:13:33] Jonathan Okamura: I think it's part of um a certain climate in Hawaii in which people uh think they can they can make comments about different ethnic groups and because of this permissiveness perhaps, that's being expressed through ethnic humor. There's even a sense among politicians that they can use these expressions and uh even in public forums. This was an interview with a uh newspaper reporter and it it's incredible that this uh woman had no sense of what was appropriate for her to comment about the her constituents. Um I think this happened about 10 years ago. It were a person was a secretary of Agriculture in the Reagan administration, made an off color joke about African Americans not in a public forum, but a reporter reported what he had said, and he had to resign. So let's not uh ignore the significance of uh these kinds of comments when uh they're made. That this is something that happened a long time ago. This is not a sort of new thing that's going on in Hawaii, but uh if this went on on the continent, I'm sure this person would be have been forced to resign.
[0:14:00] Randall Roth: You know, I can kind of understand it with respect to those particular comments that I just mentioned. But a little bit before that, uh Governor Cayetano was quoted in the newspaper as as having the use the word papolo, which again, I'm relatively new to Hawaii, but I think simply means a black person. And I'm I'm really kind of searching, why would that be offensive if if that is a term that's synonymous with a black person, African American person? Why would people be offended that he would use a word like that?
[0:15:15] Jonathan Okamura: It could be some misunderstanding about the term and how it was being used. But a personal, I I wouldn't uh be opposed to the use of that term in public discourse because it's first of all, it's a Hawaiian term and the Hawaiian language uh as we all know has been uh been prohibited from being used and this is an an an appropriate term. It's it's not a demeaning term. It comes from a plant, which is has a black seed, but has medicinal value. So, that the the connotation isn't necessarily negative.
[0:15:47] Randall Roth: So you wouldn't put that in the same category as what we're talking about today on on ethnic humor?
[0:15:53] Jonathan Okamura: No, no.
[0:15:54] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh Patrick, what what's your reaction to what you're hearing from Jonathan, whether it has to do with the comments from the City Council person on Kauai, the use of the word papolo or or anything else before we uh invite our callers to um to hear, let us hear from them.
[0:16:09] Patrick Downes: Um, well, first with the word popolo, I think I agree with John. Everything he said. Uh um what the other person, the the expressions the other person used, for example, a chew down, um I'm not that I've heard that as a local expression long time ago and I don't think as a local expression people knew what necessarily came from the derivation of that. An an equivalent word would be gyp, to gyp someone. That that's that's an ethnic slur against gypsies. But I don't know if people know that. Um I think this Councilman probably should have known that. Uh but uh I don't think it corresponds to any kind of uh uh association with Jewish people in Hawaii because there are not that many. Uh so in that case I think her her statement was uh probably an innocence. Yeah, innocent, I mean on the mainland, no. Over here, she probably didn't realize what she was doing.
[0:18:10] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, folks, if you would like to ask a question or make a comment, again our topic is ethnic humor. Our phone number is 9558821. If you're on a neighbor island, the number is 1-800-955-8821. If you'd like to uh get onto the internet and participate in an uh electronic discussion of this topic, go to www.popweb. That's p-o-p-w-e-b, popweb.org. Again, the number is 955-8821 or 1-800-955-8821.
[0:19:00] Patrick Downes: without the ethnic connotations. And so we ethnic humor has, you know, has a a negative connotation on the mainland. But uh here when you talk about local humor, the ethnic part of it just has to commit. I mean, it's it's part of life.
[0:19:16] Jonathan Okamura: And and help me out here. Um ethnic humor becomes local humor when what? What makes the local?
[0:19:22] Patrick Downes: Well, local local local humor becomes ethnic humor when you realize that the only people in Hawaii are ethnic and and you can't humor comes out of, you know, characters and people and situations and we we are all very aware that, you know, you know, I'm half Okinawan, John's Japanese, uh you're Howly, you know, this is these are all part of uh the the way we interact with each other and and that's where our humor comes from. Just just how we are, how we
[0:20:00] Jonathan Okamura: Well, I agree with what Patrick just said, that the humor in Hawaii because of uh the composition of the population, um local humor does become ethnic and content. But my concern is um the stereotypes that are being used in local humor do not necessarily have to be demeaning ones, negative ones. I use as an example, Rap Raplingers humor, which was about which was local humor but wasn't necessarily based on demeaning stereotypes. It was based on stereotypes but they weren't uh presented in a way that he was making uh especially offensive uh kinds of characterizations of people. And um the other thing about local humor is that, well, not everybody, well, everybody who could be considered ethnic here, using that term in very broad sense, but not everyone may be considered local. So the projections of Filipinos in, for example, uh local humor in Hawaii are that of being an immigrant population with a strong accent, with certain kinds of of um behaviors that would not be characteristics characteristic of local Filipinos.
[0:21:09] Patrick Downes: Okay. Well, let's take some calls. We've got a number of people on the line. Let's go first to Francis from Honolulu. Good morning, Francis.
[0:21:16] Caller: Yes. Uh thanks for taking my call. Uh I think I have to look at the funny side of life, whether it's my set of circumstances or someone else. The primary thing is always to remember charity and my neighbor, he has the same he or she has the same feelings I have, but uh getting into political correctness, uh sometimes I can go overboard in the other direction. Uh again, I should always remember other person's feelings and if it's awkward, uh then forget about it, uh but uh it depends on the intent and if someone public speaker gets up and uses it just to uh pursue their own gains, that's a different story. But uh humor in the sense that Frank uses it is usually uh just what's uh funny, and I once heard uh that humor was no more than reality. I think GK Chesterton said that. So there's a middle of the road on this and that I think intuitively we know what the humor is side of life is.
[0:22:17] Patrick Downes: Okay. Francis, stay stay on the line a minute. John, Francis mentions um Frank De Lima and and saying something um, you know, with good intentions, not trying to hurt anyone. And to me, Frank De Lima is in a special category because just about everybody in Hawaii knows how much time he gives, especially to the children of this community, but I don't know of anybody who puts in half the volunteer time for the community that he does. So he doesn't seem to be doing it with any malice whatsoever. Uh what's your reaction to what Francis is saying and and what I've added to it?
[0:23:11] Jonathan Okamura: There's also the um reaction on the part of the groups that are being the targeted in the jokes and if they find the comments again with no intent on Frank's part to be offensive, to demeaning, then I think those should be also taken into consideration. If we look at discrimination, often time, there's no intent. If we consider institutional discrimination, for example, is a major factor in the inequality in society. There may be no intent.
[0:23:22] Patrick Downes: So it doesn't matter who's saying it or how they're saying it if the impact is a is a negative impact, then it's bad.
[0:23:30] Jonathan Okamura: I think so. Yes.
[0:23:32] Patrick Downes: Okay. Um any thoughts, Patrick? Well, you then you have to think, well, how negative? Uh, you know, if, you know, is it Some people will always be offended no matter what you say. Um, and uh you can't judge or or or judge your work by by that. You you have to you have to balance it all out and uh if if you find that you're offending too many people, well then cut cut that part out. Uh Frank is an entertainer. I mean, he he he makes his living by by pleasing people. He can he can't can't afford to alienate people. Uh, but then he can't afford to be boring either. So uh it's he's always sensitive to that.
[0:24:12] Jonathan Okamura: Mhm. I've I've gone to some of his shows, and I think if if people in the audience sensed that anyone was reacting adversely to something, I think I think he would have felt that from the whole audience. At least that was my impression.
[0:24:24] Patrick Downes: Yeah. Yeah. Uh Francis, any thoughts?
[0:24:27] Caller: Uh, well, I appreciate you uh commenting on that. Uh, but again, intuitively, I think I know what's correct, and in spite of that, if anyone's offended that I should pull back, but I'm Polish myself and I thought Polish jokes were uh usually funny. Uh someone might have taken offense at it because they were more sensitive than I was. But again, I think there's a fine line and that it's divided between am I just trying to express the humorous side of life, the optimistic side of life, or am I trying to hurt someone? And I think intuitively I usually know. And if I overstep, then I would apologize at the same time.
[0:25:07] Patrick Downes: Okay. Thank you, Francis. Let's go to Rita at Hi-Ku, Maui. Good morning, Rita.
[0:25:13] Caller: Good morning. I've been listening to Francis talk and changing what I was going to say to you. Um my last name is Goldman, which as you can tell is Jewish, and I've been here for 20 years and the first time I ever heard the word used as a verb was in Hawaii. I was very offended by it. I was born 2 years after the Holocaust, and was raised without any information about being Jewish because my parents were nervous about it. Um and if you look historically at the plight of Jews, which is I believe where diaspora was was first used for people being kicked out of various places, um a lot of it had to do with the fact that there was nothing in Jewish religion against lending money, um there was in in Christianity, therefore, people would go to Jews as lenders and then be offended that they have to pay the money back and um would find it convenient to kick the Jews out or kill them instead. Um, so when I hear the phrase Jew as a verb, um I find it very offensive. On the other hand, I'm not particularly interested in political correctness either. I think we all have to take things with a grain of salt. Um, the answer to me is education. On Maui, we've created a Jewish art and education council which is not only for ourselves, but also to bring public awareness of the fact that there actually are quite a few Jews in in Hawaii. In fact, the mayor of Maui County is Jewish. Um and I think that the key here is that we do become more familiar with each other's culture so that we don't make mistakes through ignorance that may cause a great amount of pain, and we do become more aware of where the boundaries are.
[0:27:01] Patrick Downes: Okay. Let me get a reaction to that, um Pat, any any thoughts on that? Yeah, I I would agree that uh that uh education is uh is is key here. Uh we we all benefit by learning more about other people's cultures. Um, with regards to um the the the expression of Jew as a verb, uh I um I I would agree that that this politician should have been a little more and and not have not have used it. Uh but then again she I think I don't know where she probably picked it up, but I I would I would hazard a guess that it was in her youth and she had no idea what the what the word meant and and and if if she had been educated, she would not have used it.
[0:27:48] Jonathan Okamura: Uh John? Well, I think this is the part of the problem about uh the um ignorance about the significance of these kinds of uh terms as they are being expressed in Hawaii and which can result also when jokes are spread about what different populations uh supposedly do. That people think this this actually what they really are like and these this is what the basis of uh this is how stereotypes get spread. And it's not just the comedians, it's also being spread to disc jockeys, it's also being spread to children at schools who tend to use these uh terms to refer to their classmates such as my daughter who's been called a dog eater at school. And so there are these very damaging kinds of consequences from uh these uh routines that get spread around uh the state quite easily.
[0:28:36] Patrick Downes: But you know, I sit here and I really wonder how do you draw the line between what's appropriate and what's not appropriate because I get the impression that you all agree that to use an expression like Jew down is a is a is a bad thing and and that wasn't I I don't think that was even an attempt at at humor, but but it was using a stereotype and and everybody seems to agree that that that was a bad thing. But recently I've seen Frank De Lima do a a routine where he's he's dressed as a as a Catholic cardinal and he's using uh hand signs that uh are are quite uh significant to to we Catholics and does all sorts of things that uh uh I I would think in theory at least a lot of Catholics could take great offense at and yet I've seen him do it a couple times recently, one of the occasions was Father Kiko's uh Monsignor Kiko's uh send off, uh-huh and uh and the bishops and the priests and everybody else were rolling in in the aisles, they they loved it and yet um there are other things that poke fun at a group that don't work. Patrick Downs help me make sense of this.
[0:29:37] Patrick Downes: Yeah, well, uh I I had some hesitation being the editor of the Catholic Herald. I had some hesitation. Frank wanted to develop this character Cardinal Vermicelli. And I said, no, you don't. That's that's that's that's that's uh that you don't want to go in that direction and but he he insisted on it. So we tried it out uh and we figured if we if we kept it to just the peripheral, just the we didn't get it into any theology, any dogma, and any morality, it was it was just uh the pomp and circumstance that uh is often funny when it comes to the church, uh that we can exaggerate that and uh and uh it would become funny. We we tried this character first in front of uh some bishops and archbishops, and we figured if it worked there, you know, we were safe and it did. I saw it at a at a dinner for a George Chaplin which had a lot of Jewish folks there because George is is Jewish, and they loved it too. And so that worked with a wide variety of of people in different groups, but other things don't work.
[0:30:47] Caller: Can I make a suggestion? Please do. stereotypes Jews and non-Jews laugh at. I'd take no offense at um the the typical stereotype of the Jewish mother or the Jewish princess. I've had a Jewish mother, I am a Jewish mother and so on, those seem relatively harmless to me. The term to Jew someone specifically relates to historical reasons for persecution and uh and annihilation. Um and I think that that when people become more educated into certain very sensitive areas, I think that that almost any ethnic group has has areas where yes, there's a certain amount of truth. My mother was very much a Jewish mother and I don't mind the the the stereotype of that, but that wasn't threatening to my life. Um a couple of years ago, um uh Lane Nishikawa and Victor Talmich came here with a play called The Gate of Heaven which conveyed the historically correct fact that members of the 522nd um which was part of the 442nd, um helped liberate Dachau and the play began with that and and followed the friendship of a of a Japanese-American soldier and a Jewish survivor of the camp through their lives. We brought that play to high school students here on Maui and they were amazed at the history, they had no idea, and they started showing greater respect and interest in each other and their cultures.
[0:35:40] Patrick Downes: Okay. Rita, thank you for your call. You're welcome. We appreciate it. Uh Lloyd from Waikiki, you're next. Good morning.
[0:35:46] Caller: Yes, Aloha. I think uh when I first came here about 30 years ago, I I really was offended for a few minutes about the Howly being kidded and then later on I got the biggest kick out of it because the first place I was ever in where I was a minority, and I loved it. And I knew a little bit about the background of the people that lived here in Hawaii, the Filipinos, the Japanese, the Portuguese, and so on. I think one of the biggest problems having here now is we're getting all these people from other parts of the the of the United States and they still have a chip on their shoulder or they're it's separated where we we never had that 30, 40 uh years ago. We had everyone was together. They laughed at each other, they played and they loved each other, and we had the real local spirit. Unfortunately, we're getting a lot of people with chips on their shoulders and problems and they don't find it humorous. They find it offensive and that's a shame because uh to me, it's it's one of the thing long things that we need here in Hawaii is the togetherness of making fun of each other and getting together.
[0:36:44] Patrick Downes: You know, as I listen to you, Lloyd, I I'm thinking uh of of what Patrick was saying just a little bit ago about it's not really ethnic humor that we're talking about this morning so much as local humor. And I guess Patrick for it to be local humor, you have to have been here long enough to appreciate Yes. Yes. that's it and you also have to be a certain ethnic group uh of people. You have to be, you know, the original group that was here, that were in the plantations and lived together and loved each other, and and and everyone was together. And now we're getting people from all around the country with other ideas. And so when they hear this humor, they get offended, and I I think that's a shame, but they don't really have information on on how this was set up in the first place. And I think another thing I don't want to get off the subject but I think some of the the the the uh pigeon is funny. I not not so they can't hear the kids understand anything, but I do I like the puga and you that, you know, the different just a few phrases uh that that kind of make us more Hawaiian feeling and more feeling of local. I like that. Okay, Lloyd, thank you for your call this morning. Aloha.
[0:37:45] Patrick Downes: Aloha. Um Pat or or John, any any quick thoughts on that or should we move on? I I yeah, I'd like to say that that you know, there is the expression, you had to have been there. You know, when it comes to humor, you're at a funny party, something happens and you try to explain it to a friend and you know, they don't know what you're talking about.
[0:38:00] Speaker 1: because they weren't there. Um a lot of local humor is, you know, you had to have been there 30, 20 years ago.
[0:38:08] Speaker 2: So do you, as you get more and more newcomers, do you have to stop doing it because you're offending more and more people who haven't been there.
[0:38:16] Speaker 1: You have to shift. Yeah. For the the Filipinos are are problematic because they were there. One group was there, but they're still they're still coming. So there's actually two different classes of Filipinos. The Japanese, Chinese, uh Portuguese, uh, they all came up on an even scale, even playing, you know, from the from the plantation. So they were, you know, all there.
[0:38:40] Speaker 2: John, does does uh Pat and Frank Delima just stop telling Filipino stories because we've got the new group of people coming in from the Philippines? Or or how do they adjust to this changing situation, and yet retain what what I think even you recognize as being a a great core?
[0:39:04] Speaker 1: But they have to make How do they How do they do that? They could be um jokes about more positive kinds of stereotypes about Filipinos, um about family values, valuing on education.
[0:39:15] Speaker 2: But is that is that funny to talk
[0:39:18] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not the joke writer. It's the easy way it's the easy way out to pick on what seems to be the deficiencies about people because everyone can eat easily make fun of that and find humor in that. Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right. The challenge is is is to is not to pick the the easy the easy joke. Uh Frank's latest album Ethncology, it's it's based all ethnic stuff. We we didn't have a Filipino number in there. We're you know, it's it's difficult. Oh, so that was an adjustment. I mean it Well, it wasn't necessarily an adjustment. It just we couldn't we could not come up with anything. I couldn't come couldn't come up with anything that didn't cross this changing boundary line. Yeah. I I you know, I personally, I have never written an eat dog joke. Although it's in that song, the Frank one, I put that in. That's that's that's the that's a cheap shot. I think a cheap joke.
[0:40:13] Speaker 1: But always get to laugh. I don't think it's that offensive. Hawaiians eat dogs, Chinese, I believe did. Uh, but um but I I don't like it because it's it's just it it's just an easy cheap joke. Uh so, um but so I I couldn't I wrote most of ethnology, and I couldn't think of anything for the Filipinos this time around that wouldn't be offensive.
[0:40:35] Speaker 2: Okay. Let's go to Larry from uh Kailua-Kona, I believe it is. Good morning, Larry.
[0:40:39] Caller: Good morning. How are you doing? I um I'm I've been here about 10 years and the word I like to know more about if the experts know out there is the word Howley. Um I've always thought it meant white, but somebody just told me recently, it means without breath and it's something that Hawaiians used when the white man came over here and uh they were, you know, the Hawaiians used their breath more and uh so I was just wondering uh if anybody knows the real reason out there, you know, where the word comes from. And this Monday um I just want to remind your uh listeners that uh at 9 o'clock on PBS, they're going to have a show about the Hawaiian sovereignty, but to take over the kingdom.
[0:41:20] Caller: And I wonder if it all comes from that that you know, I can understand Hawaiian's being using that in a derogatory term uh the word Howley after all those years of kind of making humor out of something really serious. And um I want to know if there's any truth to that because uh uh I take a little offense to that. I know everybody uses the word Howley. Does anyone know that?
[0:41:41] Speaker 2: Um John, I know you could give us a a a long answer. Real quick uh the word Howley and if you can tie it into our topic this morning, that's great. If you can't, we'll just hear the definition and move on. Go ahead.
[0:41:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm familiar with that um understanding of the origin of the term without breath, but uh and there are different uh reasons I've heard why that was used, um one perhaps they didn't speak the Hawaiian language. But uh the term in itself is not necessarily derogatory. I think people are reading into uh the the the term when they interpret in that sense, because it's again it's a Hawaiian term that has survived over the years and uh there's nothing necessarily objectionable to its continued use in public discourse.
[0:42:25] Speaker 2: My my impression has always been it's only a bad term when it follows the word damn or something like that.
[0:42:30] Speaker 1: It depends on the adjective.
[0:42:31] Speaker 2: There you go, depends on the adjective. Thank you, Larry. Let's go to Lynn from Honolulu. Good morning, Lynn.
[0:42:36] Caller: Good morning. Um I I was born and raised in Hawaii and now I'm been on the mainland for about 10 years now and back visiting my folks. And what I always loved about growing up in Hawaii was the humor, the ethnic humor. I grew up around you know, Rap Rapanger, um Frank Delima and the Bummai. And it it's more relaxed. When I'm on the mainland, people are so tense about race race relations and ethnic uh stereotype, and I think it was a good thing for me to grow up with um humor, ethnic humor.
[0:43:13] Speaker 2: All right. Let's uh quick reaction to that, John.
[0:43:17] Speaker 1: Well, that's the common understanding here that we have better race relations on the um continent and we're much more laid back about these matters, but uh let's not forget that we have our own problems too.
[0:43:31] Caller: Oh, yeah. No. Definitely there's problems here but it's it's not the same as on the mainland. It's just I don't think there's the tension that I see um on the mainland.
[0:43:43] Speaker 2: You you know, as as I listened to you Lynn, I I really like um local humor and when when my family and I moved to Hawaii uh and I kind of plugged into if you will, Frank De Lima and the different performers, it just struck me as something special and very positive uh uh about Hawaii. But yeah, Pat, I'm wondering, more and more, I think there there is vocal criticism of of that type of of humor and and we're seeing things in the newspaper that's that's quite critical of it. And I suspect that that eventually what this will result in is the death of local humor. Um am I right or am I wrong? Is that where it's headed?
[0:44:26] Speaker 1: It it it I'm not sure. Uh what I think one of the the tests of ethnic groups getting along is do they fall in love and get married? And I think here overwhelmingly the answer is yes. We have uh uh the average kid is a a variety of ethnic backgrounds. Um that is the ultimate in in uh race race relations. When your cousin is Japanese, Chinese, Korean, you know, Irish, uh Jewish, whatever. Uh, and more and more, I think see the families of Hawaii are are made up this way. That that I that's where Hawaii sends sends a model to the rest of the country.
[0:45:09] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, our our lines are full, and so we're just going to keep on moving. I will let you know if you tuned in late that you're listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. My name is Randy Roth. I'm here with Patrick Downs and John Okamura talking about local humor. Uh Patrick Downs was born and raised in Hawaii, he's a graduate of Chaminade University, married and has three children, Mariel, Celia and Thomas. He's the editor of the Hawaii Catholic Herald and long time composer and writer for comedian Frank Delima. John Okamura is a researcher with the Student Equity, Excellence and Diversity office at UH Manoa and a regular lecturer in the Ethnic Studies department. He has a PhD in Anthropology from the University of London and is the author of a forthcoming book titled, Imagining the Filipino American Diaspora.
[0:45:59] Speaker 2: Um, let's go to Ann from Nuuanu. Good morning, Ann.
[0:46:02] Caller: Well, good morning. Great show this morning. I'd like to tell you about a little experience a couple months ago, I went into a uh large record store here, the largest on the island, and I was in there shopping around and all of a sudden on the uh the store loud speakers, uh they started playing this rap song and believe it or not, the words over and over in this song were kill the white man, kill the white man. You know, they kept saying this, and I went up to the counter of the, you know, the clerk at the counter and I said, excuse me, I said, do you have to play that song? I said, that sounds very racist, and he looked at me and he shrugged his shoulders and turned away. And I left the store, and I don't think I've been back since.
[0:46:46] Caller: But I compare that with Frank De Lima and I think these islands are going to become very, very small and cramped indeed if we allow rap music with racist words like that to be played and say, that's all right, but we don't allow Frank De Lima's ethnic humor. And uh uh I've been here since '72 and the uh Frank De Lima I I uh I don't mind he makes jokes of my my ethnicity. I have no problem and I'll laugh with him. Uh so, what do you think of this? Comparing these two types of things.
[0:47:23] Speaker 1: Well, that's much more extreme, obviously, and it's not intended to be humorous. And I think there's been some kind of uh self self censorship um done by these record companies. And uh I don't think Frank's humorous touches anywhere near that sort of um very uh negative kind of uh message being sent out.
[0:47:46] Caller: Well, Frank is great. I I wouldn't miss him if he had to stop doing his type of humor. I think we need it desperately now more and more.
[0:47:55] Speaker 2: Ann said she doesn't mind it when her group is uh the target of of Frank's humor. I get terribly disappointed if if Frank doesn't come after the Hawlies just I I I maybe it's just the way I was brought up, but uh if a person won't kid you, then they don't really like you, and that's just the way I've reacted. Let's go to Pedro from Maui. Good morning, Pedro.
[0:48:15] Caller: Good morning. Hey, I just wanted um to say that I really do love Frank Delima and all his shows and he has been I've been here in Lahaina Intermediate and Lahaina Luna and he has come many times over. Um however, the one thing I've learned from myself, you know, considering myself a comedian and poking fine in different things in life and stuff, that if the person or or people who you're poking fun at don't take it as a joke, then it doesn't become humor anymore. And that's when you really have to look at your comedy and see if it's really offending, because if the people that you're poking fun at don't take it as a joke, then it must really be offensive to them whether it's whether you're not meaning it to be that way or or not. I think that And that's where Frank De Lima has to really look at.
[0:48:59] Speaker 1: Okay. And Pat, I know earlier in the show you were saying the exact same thing that you've got your own reasons over and above what Pedro is commenting on to be very sensitive to whether it's working. Yes, we once tried to uh do a funny song about Popolos blacks, we used the word Popolo, uh it didn't go over very well. If you were to take that and analyze the song compared to what we did to other groups, it was mild, I thought, or at least equal. But because, and then we tested it out on a few people and they didn't find it offensive, but they were quite open minded. Uh but we we we ended up uh withdrawing that, uh because the blacks have a different status in Hawaii.
[0:49:45] Speaker 2: Okay. Pedro, thank you for your call. Uh we move to Melissa from Manoa. Good morning, Melissa.
[0:49:51] Caller: Good morning. Um I wanted to um comment because I was raised here and um I what are the things I think is people have the create their self images on the playground and often times you keep it that uh self image or expand on it rather than uh thinking, well, that's child and, you know, now I'm an adult and And so, I lived with uh stereotypes, um and uh was the target of them. Um being white, I had, you know, people make comments about Hawlies that I didn't you know, I just accepted the general um information about that. Um it's interesting, a few years ago in on uh public television, there was a panel of discussants who were talking during the um let's see, Black History week or in the beginning of the year. And a Hawaiian man said, well, Hawlies don't have a culture.
[0:50:56] Caller: And um I also uh found that that there was this some assumptions along that line, and I I ignored the fact that every year we went to Bobby Burns dinner and and other kinds of, you know, my grandmother gave me kills uh all of us kills and other kinds of things that reflected our own long um ethnic history. Um, and instead accepted what was the common knowledge on the playground about it. So there's a problem um, uh, and I I got into a few fights also on the playground over some of this stuff. Um, so I don't think the local humor is necessarily harmless, although I can banter now with the best, and um, don't always think it is harmful.
[0:51:52] Speaker 2: Okay. Melissa, I'm I'm going to take that as a rhetorical question. Um, even though I haven't given the phone number out uh since the beginning of the show, our lines have stayed full the whole hour, and we're getting down uh toward the end of the hour and so I'm going to keep moving, but I I think you've asked a very provocative question this morning. Thank you. Keith from Wylai. Good morning, Keith.
[0:52:07] Caller: Good morning, Randy. How are you?
[0:52:09] Speaker 2: Fine.
[0:52:10] Caller: I wanted to make comment on a couple of things. One is that all you have to do is see a show by someone like Don Rickles uh to appreciate the what Frank Delima does is humorous. Uh Rickles by comparison uh uses uh ethnicity in a very vicious, vicious manner, usually attacking someone who's sitting close to the front of the stage or something. And uh I think also regarding the use of the term Howley and stuff, I think one of our problems here is that we when people say Hawlies don't have a culture, it's because they're lumping all Caucasian ethnic groups into one group and calling them Howley. Whereas we break up the oriental faction into different ethnic groups, Chinese and Japanese and Koreans and Filipinos and so on. And if you took the so-called Howley group and broke them up, you'd find that they are completely different peoples who are not related at all and who do have cultures.
[0:53:23] Speaker 1: I where where I grew up, uh we had we told jokes about the Italians, the Germans, the Scotch, you know, French. Uh you don't get that in Hawaii, we're lumped together.
[0:53:33] Caller: That's true and in in the Hawaiian language when we speak in Hawaiian, of course we use Howley to mean foreign and so everything is either foreign or it's not but it's the use of Howley in English that lumps everything together. And uh I I've been in a very small minority for all of my life uh particularly the last 40 years, and I don't find it offensive to be called Howley but I would much rather that uh people took the time to find out what my ethnicity was rather than what my race was.
[0:53:59] Speaker 1: So you kind of come back to education which yeah. Okay.
[0:54:06] Speaker 2: Keith, thank you for your call this morning. Thanks much. We go to Coco from Molokai. Good morning, Coco.
[0:54:12] Caller: Good morning. I just wanted to comment on a few things that uh you know, like in Hawaii, it's like a melting pot here. And uh everybody, you know, finds a little humor in in a little bit of everything about, you know, different races of everybody. And I don't think anybody should be really taking it to heart, you know, because these programs are coming on the radio or on TV and you can always have a chance to listen to it or turn the channel or turn it off, you know. Yeah. So, I don't believe anybody should be really taking it to heart and as far as you looking at the Chinese people, you know, they've been eating you know, monkey brains and cooking up snakes, you know, Filipinos they they make a joke about the dog you know. Nothing to really worry about.
[0:54:57] Speaker 2: Don't get too serious about it. Okay. Thank you, Coco. Appreciate your call. We go to Sam from Honolulu. Good morning, Sam.
[0:55:05] Caller: Yeah, good morning, Randy.
[0:55:06] Speaker 2: Sam King, right? Yep. Unmistakable voice.
[0:55:10] Speaker 1: Well, it's it's the first time I've done this, but a couple of things. I just wanted to point out that some of these names come and go. When I was growing up, the name Kanaka which meant human being, it was mispronounced Kanaka, well fighting words. And uh the military and the local boys used to get into big fights because they'd say they go you you Kanaka and uh fight, fight, fight. Massy case was full of that sort of stuff. You don't hear that word anymore. And it's been gone for years. Another thing I'd like to point out is that Howley does not mean no breath. Ha, with a long A, means breath, and Ole means not or no.
[0:55:51] Speaker 1: And so some somebody who's not graduate of the University of Hawaii says well, Ha Ole means no breath, but this is a short A in Howley. So, it has no bearing on no breath at all. Otherwise, keep going.
[0:56:08] Speaker 2: Okay, great. Thanks for the call.
[0:56:10] Speaker 1: And by the way, I love I love uh uh Frank Delima's record, I play it at least once a once a day.
[0:56:19] Speaker 2: All right. Thank you, Sam. We go to Larry from Manoa. Good morning, Larry.
[0:56:26] Caller: Morning, Randy. Uh one of your guests earlier on said that you have to uh you have to have been there to appreciate some jokes. So I put out to a fear group. Suppose you went back before Frank De Lima to a time where uh the society in Hawaii was deeply exploitative, that you could fix on the plantation or uh anything else you want where one group is exploiting another. And I I think to some extent this still holds today. Um, and test out the theory that uh there were uh there were the whether ethnic slurs later developing into ethnic
[0:57:00] Speaker 1: jokes as a means of keeping the harmony to prevent everything from exploding, so that if a boss made a joke about somebody who's on the work gang that it wouldn't just explode into a riot. And uh I like to hear what you guess think about that and about what uh that whether this is still going on today.
[0:57:19] Jonathan Okamura: Okay. John uh Okamura. I think that's true. I think the jokes are a way of expressing animosity, hostility toward groups which uh otherwise should not be expressed and uh for example, the the uh Kauai County chairperson could have expressed her feelings about um the Filipinos working at the county building or in in a way of by making a joke. It's it's unfortunate she made this other kind of comment, and I think that's one of the ways by which that kind of animosity in Hawaii is being expressed through ethnic humor.
[0:57:56] Patrick Downes: Patric Downs? Um, as far as having having to be there, comedy comes from a the the it always within a context of a common shared experience and uh you know like you know, like Sam King said, some some of the expressions are changing. If you weren't back there when Kanaka was derogatory, then it it it means nothing to you today. Um and some of the expressions were born out of animosity. You know, that that's that's absolutely true. Uh but they also evolve and and they they their harshness, the edge, you know, is where it wears away. And after a while, it, you know, at some point, it becomes funny and then and then it's dropped.
[0:58:36] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, we've got just five minutes to go and a couple people have been waiting very patiently, so we're going to move on to Peter from Hawaii Kai. Good morning, Peter.
[0:58:44] Caller: Good morning. I just felt I'd call after listening to a lot of these callers call in like that Jewish lady. Listen to Jackie Mason, listen to Don Rickles, listen to Richard Pryor. Uh all of a sudden, everybody's be beside everything having to you have to be politically correct, all of a sudden everybody's sensitive. I mean it's a perfect world we live in, you know. I mean, are we going to write every war, every wrong that has been done through every ethnic race here in Hawaii or the world. I spent time in the military on the mainland. I've been through every big city, and I've heard all those words being used so consistently: Jews, niggers, kikes, spics, and some Hawaiians find being called Kanaka offensive as well. So where does it all end, really when you think about it. I mean, we live in such a perfect world. Now all of a sudden, everybody is so sensitive about a certain part of humor. I love Frank De Lima, and like the most of the previous callers I call, it's a way of expressing ourselves. Of course, a lot of people that are finding it much more offensive, unfortunately, that's how life is. Life is not perfect, you know, so I don't know, you know. I don't know what are you what are you think about that.
[0:59:54] Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate your comment. Take that as a very provocative statement, but we're down to a couple minutes. I got one more person who's been waiting a long time and that's Lynn from Hamakua. Good morning, Lynn.
[1:00:03] Caller: Good morning. Um yeah, I just wanted to comment that I think uh as a stand-up comic myself that part of it is that you have to be grounded in the culture or the cultures that you're making fun of because then you're able to communicate in a way like a previous caller said, that that the that culture thinks it's funny too, you know. If If I can stand up and do one of my Japanese characters, Misi Nakamitsu, I mean, you know, in the PTA in Honal Kai Elementary School and everyone in the audience laughs including the people of Japanese ethnic background because it isn't important, you know, that it's just important that she's local, right? And another friend of mine, Angie Baker, is a Filipino gal and she gets pretty heavy on the Filipino jokes. But guess what? It's really okay because Angie is Filipino and she tells you that right up front. And you know, if you I grew up in Hawaii. I grew up in Hana Maui and Honolulu and I had lots of ethnic exposure and I my ability to do the accents comes from hearing it. You know, I use, my stage name is Auntie Tutu. And and it's really it works. You can tell it works when everybody's laughing and you're not, you know, ending up offending people. And one time, I did a group of jokes that did offend somebody and I dropped them. Because, you know, I just want to be I I want to entertain like Frank De Lima does. You know, that's the point of it. And if you're not making people happy, then you're not doing your job as a standup.
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: Lynn, thank you very much for your call. We appreciate that. I've got a minute and a half left, and you've each got half of it. Uh Pat Downs, any concluding remarks?
[1:01:40] Patrick Downes: Uh, I I I really enjoyed being here, and I like I liked all the give and take. Um, I I do believe, you know, we may be at a point in Hawaii's history where we're we're changing. You know, the the plantation roots are are sort of maybe withering away, and we're and we're we're turning into a more cosmopolitan, maybe mainland type of place, perhaps. Uh and as we do, you know, our comedy has to adjust. Um, comedy is made its main purpose is to entertain, to make people happy. Uh, a lot of comedy nowadays is gross. It's it's offensive. And I'm not talking racial, I'm talking every, there's all kinds of sexual type of comedy, comedy that makes fun of of of marriage and and all kinds of things. The these some truly offensive things. Um, you know, as as a comedy writer, I there's always a challenge. You know, the challenge number one is to make people laugh.
[1:02:33] Jonathan Okamura: Okay. John Okamura. Yeah, thanks Randy. I also have enjoyed being on the show and thanks to the callers for their questions and comments. Um my only concern is that we don't overemphasize the significance of ethnic humor in Hawaii. Certainly there's a place and and it does contribute to making Hawaii a special place. And I and I don't want to be misunderstood as uh being totally opposed to ethnic humor. I've enjoyed it myself over the past 20 years since I moved back to Hawaii, and uh I was a big fan of Buka Buka for example, and I'm still a fan of Frank De Lima. But uh let's not uh get to the point where we think that it is the glue that holds the society together. That's uh absolute nonsense, and I think it's absurd that some statement like that could be printed in a um daily newspaper in Hawaii. They're far much more significant ways by which we maintain ourselves as a diverse ethnically diverse society.
[1:03:21] Speaker 1: Okay, and everybody should try to learn as much about each other as possible. Our producer is Susie Roth, our technical wizard is Jeff Alardi. You've been listening to Pop Radio. I'm Randy Roth, Aloha.