Who Runs the University of Hawaii?
Price of Paradise · Hawaii Public Radio · aired 1996-02-04
Guests: David Yount (physicist, author, longtime UH professor and administrator); Stuart Ho (UH regent)
Duration: 1:08:59

[0:00:00] Randall Roth: doing it, and also because we believe in the importance of lively informed public dialogue. Our airtime is paid for by the Hawaii Community Foundation, an organization that encourages grassroots efforts to improve the quality of life in Hawaii, and that manages charitable funds with efficiency and compassion. Well, we have an interesting program for you this morning. It's about a new book and the new book is about Who Runs the University? In fact, that's the title. Our guests in the studio are Stewart Ho and David Yount. Stewart has a a resume that could take a long time to read to you, but I'm just going to hit a couple of the high points. He has his undergraduate degree from Claremont McKenna College and a law degree from the University of Michigan.
[0:00:50] Randall Roth: He's been in the Hawaii State House of Representatives, he was deputy corporation counsel for the City and County of Honolulu, he practiced law with a a New York law firm, he has been a regent at the University of Hawaii, including a a couple years as chairman of the Board of Regents. He's been Trustee for the Asia Foundation, governor for the East West Center, a Trustee at Claremont McKenna College. Currently, he's a director of about 10 non-profit organizations, and also is director of Aloha Airlines, bank uh BankCorp Hawaii, uh Bishop Insurance of Hawaii, uh the Gnett company. He's a Trustee of uh CREF. All of the uh college professors and many others will recognize that as the college retirement equities fund. Also currently he's chairman of the board, president and director of Capital Investment of Hawaii. That's an investment company, and chairman of the board and director of Gnett Pacific Corporation. That's a newspaper publisher that owns newspapers in Hawaii and Guam, specifically the Honolulu Advertiser. Good morning, Stewart.
[0:01:54] Stuart Ho: Good morning.
[0:01:55] Randall Roth: We also have with us David Yount. David is a professor of physics at the University of Hawaii, Manoa. He has his bachelor's degree in physics from Cal Tech, Master's and doctor's degrees in physics from Stanford. He graduated uh with honors and he had a post-doctoral fellowship at Princeton University and a National Science Foundation post-doctoral fellowship at Orsay, France. Dr. Yount began his educational career as an instructor and an and assistant professor at Princeton. From 1965 to 69 he was a member of the professional staff at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center. Returning to the classroom he became an associate professor of physics at the University of Hawaii in 1969 and was promoted to full professor in 1972.
[0:02:42] Randall Roth: He served as chairman of the Department of Physics and Astronomy from 79 to 84, and soon thereafter, he was made Vice President for Research and Graduate Education. Uh, let's see that was in January of 86 and he served in that capacity at the University of Hawaii until March of 95. David is author or co-author of more than 140 research papers in the fields of high energy physics, diving medicine, acoustics, and surface chemistry. He's listed in more than 25 biographical references, including American men and women of science, Who's Who in technology today, Who's Who in American Education, International Who's Who of intellectuals, Who's Who in America, and Who's Who in the world. Uh, he's done a lot of experimental and theoretical investigations on decompression sickness, more commonly known as the bends, and his work in this area resulted in a new set of diving tables.
[0:03:38] Randall Roth: In recognition of that particular work, Professor Yount received a Stover Link Award for the um of the undersea and hyperbolic medical society for 1987. He's traveled extensively and speaks French and German. And very importantly, has uh just written a book that is a real blockbuster of a book called Who Runs the University? We're going to be talking about that in just a moment. Good morning, David.
[0:04:03] David Yount: Good morning, Randy.
[0:04:05] Randall Roth: David, uh let me just share a couple of quotes that have appeared in the press here in Hawaii in the last couple of days. Uh the Honolulu Magazine article on your book called it brutally honest and surprisingly literate. The Star Bulletin uh a few days ago called it the talk of the town, and in this morning's advertiser, the editorial calls it an act of courage. Uh and I'd just add, I thought it was the most fascinating book I've read in a long, long time. Uh what's going on here? Why did you write this book?
[0:04:37] David Yount: Thanks for the good publicity. All my life, I've been interested in how things work, and I think that's why I became a scientist, and my interest is quite general, in including physics, but also subjects like physiology. When I found myself in the administration, I realized that I didn't understand how it worked. I didn't know why the university ran that way, didn't make any sense to me that it would run that way. It seemed like it barely ran at all. And over the years, as I learn more about it, I realized that maybe other people would share my interest in how it runs. Maybe if more people understood how it runs, we can make it run better.
[0:05:17] Randall Roth: And uh I know one of the things in your book is that you talk about the the management isn't what it could be. And Stewart Ho, in this morning's advertiser, you have a review of David's book and uh and a lot of your own thoughts about the uh issue of governance at the university, and you say the issue is not good management. The issue is power. Uh tell us what you meant by that statement.
[0:05:43] Stuart Ho: The uh um um the the the reason that uh I made that statement is because as as as David has um observed, the constitution of the state uh sets up a a an ambiguity between as to who really uh runs the university. Um, it gives the uh legislature uh the uh the power to appropriate money for the university, and yet it um it um um it states that the Board of Regents will have the power uh to run the internal affairs um and business of the university. Uh, someplace in between, um uh most people would recognize that's an it's not a um uh that's not a uh uh a very clean way of of of um distributing power.
[0:06:33] Stuart Ho: Uh they're going to be overlaps and uh that's what's happened and that's um the the overlap is is the subject matter of uh of David's uh book.
[0:06:42] Randall Roth: And I think the metaphor that you use, and I thought it was was very interesting, is that at times, there are too many hands on the wheel, and other times, no hands on the wheel.
[0:06:51] Stuart Ho: That's exactly right.
[0:06:52] Randall Roth: So, I guess you would agree with David that uh that there's a lot of potential that's uh going unused at the university?
[0:07:00] Stuart Ho: Uh, yes. Uh a lot of a lot of um um a lot of bad things happen there because of this uh uh this ambiguity and people trying to fill the power vacuum and so forth. Um you have um uh as David's pointed out, exiting star faculty members, you have confusion, you have um decisions that don't get made, uh decisions that get postponed. Um, all of these things um um um because of um this overlap, uh and the opportunities it creates for mischief and all kinds of other not-so-good things.
[0:07:34] Randall Roth: Well, well David, what is the bottom line? If if somebody said uh never mind the book and and they shouldn't ever say that because it's a fascinating book, but what's the bottom line? Who runs the university?
[0:07:44] David Yount: I think Stewart got it exactly right. Nobody and everybody. Uh depends. Sometimes there's nobody running and sometimes everybody's got their hand in it.
[0:07:55] Randall Roth: Uh wouldn't we normally say, well the Board of Regents, they're the group that really make the tough decisions. Right now, for example, we're all waiting for um what are called vertical cuts. The Board of Regents has been talking about lopping off entire units of the university. Um, as I sit here waiting to to hear what the answer is, what I think you're suggesting is that maybe members of the Board of Regents are really going to be deciding that, but maybe it's going to be people in the legislature, or maybe it's going to be somebody else. Um, help me out here. Who's probably making these decisions right now that we're about to hear in terms of what units get lopped off?
[0:08:39] David Yount: Normally, the board is held accountable for the management of the university. This is really the key and I do have a chapter on the Board of Regents. Um, the board normally would delegate that authority to the president and to the university administration. Uh, in our state, however, the board doesn't really have the authority that it should have if it's going to be held accountable. That emerged very clearly uh during the search for the presidency where they selected Cecil Mackey and they were unable to give him the salary they had negotiated with him. If the board can't even select the chief executive officer, it certainly cannot run the university.
[0:09:20] Randall Roth: Who who selects the chief executive officer?
[0:09:23] David Yount: Well, nobody and everybody.
[0:09:27] Randall Roth: Uh, want to make sure that our listeners are aware of um something very important in this morning's advertiser in the focus section. On page B1, right there on the top of the focus section, the headline is UH where politics is the master and there are quite a few excerpts from your chapter David, on the Board of Regents. And on the bottom of that first page, page one or or I guess that's in the middle, there's a headline the running of UH falls to no one and everyone, and that's the article written by Stewart Ho that I had mentioned just a bit ago. And then on page two, we've got an editorial written by the advertiser about the book.
[0:10:05] Randall Roth: Uh David, quick reaction to their editorial?
[0:10:08] David Yount: Well, I'm delighted, uh both by Stewart's review and by the editorial, and particularly by the fact that they focused on the central issue of the book. The book is really about governance. How does the university run? Of course, you can't describe how it runs without describing who runs it. So, the title of the book, Who Runs the University, is is intimately connected with with the issue of how, who and how. Uh and by focusing on that issue and and the fact that that revolves very much around the role of the Board of Regents, I think they have pointed the readers in the right direction. This is really the subject of great interest to me. Um former President Al Simoon called me up a few days ago, and he also is interested in that issue, management.
[0:10:57] David Yount: How do you manage an institution like this? Uh, who does what and and who should be doing what?
[0:11:04] Randall Roth: You you tell a lot of fascinating stories involving individuals who are very much alive and and most of them are are still around, and uh I'm sure they're going to be some folks who are referred to in the book who aren't real happy with it. But it's so well written, uh those characters really do come alive, and my impression and the advertiser's impression and Stewart Ho's impression is that you were uh amazingly objective and and fair in describing what happened as opposed to putting judgments on the actions of people. How do you react to that?
[0:11:38] David Yount: This is what my wife would call a professional deformation. My profession is science, physics, and we're trained and and our practice is to describe things objectively as they are, and as much as possible avoid judgments. I've tried to do this. It's it's my style. It's the way I write in general, and I've tried to do this in the book, which means in a certain respect, it comes out dry and objective rather than inflammatory, uh scandalous. I'm trying to avoid scan. I'm just trying to lay out the facts and let other people make their own decisions.
[0:12:15] Randall Roth: I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We call it Pop Radio. I'm talking to David Yount and Stewart Ho. David is a UH professor of physics at Manoa, until recently was Vice President for Research and Graduate Education, and he's the author of a hot book called Who Runs the University? It's published by UH Press, and we'll have some information for you in just a little bit as to when it will be available and how you can go about reserving your copy. My other guest in the studio is Stewart Ho, who is the chairman of the board of Capital Investment Company and Gnett Pacific Corporation. He's a former chairman of the UH Board of Regents.
[0:12:55] Randall Roth: If you would like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 9558821. And neighbor Islanders, I've got some new information for you. Normally, we would tell you to call collect. We've gone uh into the modern age, I guess you would call it. We have our own 800 number. 1-800-955-8821. So it's the same old number but a 1-800 in front of it and we look forward to hearing from neighbor Islanders as well as folks from Oahu. Anyone who tune tuned in a little bit late, who would like to hear the show in its entirety tonight at 8 o'clock on KIFO 1380 a.m., you'll have an opportunity to do just that. Well Stewart Ho, I want to read to you a quote from David's book. This is the chapter on the Board of Regents, and this is uh a part of what was in the advertiser this morning.
[0:13:45] Randall Roth: It says, a crude statement of the interface problem is that the university is an ivory tower of howly faculty embedded in a multiracial community run by Japanese politicians. An equally blunt formulation of the autonomy issue is that the howly academics and the Japanese politicians both think they should be running the show.
[0:14:06] Stuart Ho: True.
[0:14:09] Randall Roth: Um, boy, I'll tell you, when uh Honolulu Magazine called this brutally honest, David, you don't hold anything back. Stewart, tell me a little bit more about this so-called interface problem or the so-called autonomy issue that David wrote about.
[0:14:24] Stuart Ho: Well, it's very much uh it's very much alive. It's it was alive when I was there uh at the university, which is 30 years before David got around to writing the book. And I was sort of I was sort of uh surprised uh that um everything David wrote about um was as live and as well uh 30 years before that um in in my time. Uh, the interface uh situation is is is definitely there. Um boards of regions change, the leadership of the university changes. Um um the institution is never seen to change. The cast of institutions never seem to change. The um, the Faculty Senate in my day and now the Union and and um uh the governor's uh role in the whole thing, the legislature's role in the whole thing, legislators change.
[0:15:16] Stuart Ho: Um, and yet the result is the same.
[0:15:18] Randall Roth: Yeah. And and I guess on this interface uh problem, as David writes, in theory the Board of Regents would reflect the community, and he makes an awfully good argument for the fact that year after year after year, it really doesn't reflect anything but the legislature.
[0:15:34] Stuart Ho: Well, uh this is not true uh this is not true of every uh Board of Regents, but um um it it it is true that uh that um many um um many regions are are are not um uh primarily the governor's um um choice. Uh many regions um are appoint are appointed um uh because they are the choices of um of key legislators.
[0:16:01] Randall Roth: Okay. Well, our lines are packed and we're going to try to move through them real quickly. So each caller if I could ask you to to try to keep your question or your comment as brief as possible, that way we'll get to the many many people who are wanting to to talk to David and Stewart this morning. Let's start at the top. Desmond from Kaimuki. Good morning, Desmond.
[0:16:19] Caller: Good morning, Randy. Um, I'm representing as chair of Common Cause, Desmond Burn. Uh question, we've protested uh that Joseph Blanco, currently the chairman of the Board of Regents and is an executive assistant to the governor. There's nothing wrong with him personally, but holding both positions we regard as bad since the chairman of the Board of Regents should be very independent. Um, they can't get the media or anybody to uh get excited about this issue. Uh what about the panelists?
[0:16:50] Randall Roth: Okay, let's have Stewart Ho's thoughts on that first.
[0:16:53] Stuart Ho: Uh that's that that's a question uh that's an issue I would disagree with you with uh with um on uh Desmond. Um I think I think one of the possible solutions to this um this interface problem so to speak, um is really to abolish the Board of Regents and to and to make the governor uh the um um basically the ultimate power as far as the university is concerned, uh what the president in in between. Now, if you can't have that, um better to have somebody on the Board of Regents like uh uh Joe Blanco uh who has the instant ear the governor uh because uh frankly uh from the legislature, the legislative point of view, it's a little tougher to pick on the governor than it is on the Board of Regents.
[0:17:38] David Yount: I I think Stewart's comment reflects the paradox in the governance of the university. The more um autonomy you have, the less support you get. Uh it's true that if if Joe Blanco were independent, the university would have more autonomy, but we'd have less support from the governor. So on the one hand, uh Joe's in a position to help the university by virtue of his relationship with the governor. On the other hand, we have less autonomy because of it. That paradox appears over now over throughout the history of the university. If we get more autonomy, the legislature will give us less money. This is what happened in California. They get less than one quarter of their funding from the state of California now, the UC system.
[0:18:26] David Yount: And that's the price of the autonomy which, yes, they have autonomy, and yes, they lost most of their state funding.
[0:18:32] Randall Roth: And I guess we have more autonomy today than we've had in the recent past and uh all of a sudden we're looking at uh 30% less budget than just a few years ago.
[0:18:41] David Yount: Well, again, uh when there's very little money available, uh the legislature will basically lose interest in the university and give more autonomy to the university.
[0:18:52] Randall Roth: Okay. Desmond, thanks a lot for your call. We're going to have to to move on.
[0:18:56] Caller: Thank you.
[0:18:57] Randall Roth: Uh, Wayne in St. Louis Heights. Good morning, Wayne.
[0:18:58] Caller: Good morning.
[0:19:00] Speaker 1: I have a question for either one of your guests. Uh, the uh chart that's printed on uh page B4 this morning's advertiser indicates a breakdown by ethnic background of the UH faculty and students and the community. and it's it shows here a very high percentage of University for Hawaii faculty, towards Caucasian background. And uh my question in regards to the the students uh UH students, it doesn't really indicate this but isn't it true that with with regard to graduate students there tends to be a higher percentage of Caucasian students, particularly in the smaller departments.
[0:19:36] David Yount: David, yeah, that's correct. Um as it indicates in this excerpt, our faculty is recruited nationwide and that's a requirement if we accept federal funds. We have to do national searches for our faculty if we're going to keep federal funds and therefore our faculty tends to look like the faculty in Iowa or any other any other university in America. Uh our students naturally reflect the local population, uh some some percentage like 90% of our students come from Hawaii. Now, when you look at the graduate student enrollments, you find that about half of our students come from out of state and again they reflect the national uh ethnic makeup rather than the local one. So, yes, we have more Caucasian students in our graduate school.
[0:20:25] Speaker 1: I can understand why the the faculty might be Caucasian if they're recruiting nationally, but why is it though that the graduate students are tend to have a higher percentage of Caucasians? Are they being recruited nationally?
[0:20:36] David Yount: They are being recruited nationally. That's exactly the point. In other words, they are in the same ballpark as the faculty and therefore, tend to be more like the faculty. Uh but it's really sort of a blend. It's it's halfway between the undergraduates and the faculty.
[0:20:51] Speaker 1: Okay.
[0:20:52] Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
[0:20:53] Speaker 1: Thank you Wayne. We go to Steve at UH. Good morning Steve.
[0:20:56] Caller: Hi, I want to say this an excellent program and I can't think of two better qualifying people to discuss it. I've known both of them for a number of years and I think very highly of both of them. And I'm glad you've got this mix, let me congratulate you on the program. Um two points, one very rapid in relation to the previous caller and one main point. The rapid one in relation to previous caller, if Hawaii wants a world class university, then it has to play in the world league, it can't play in the bush league. And if it's going to play in the world league, it's going to look a lot more like the rest of the world and not just like the local problems it comes from that's true of any university in the world. The best universities in other countries, like University of London, University of Paris, and so on, they don't look just like people from London, or just like people from Paris, they look like people from all over the world because they play in the world league. They don't play in the local league and the objections in local community to the fact that university looks like the rest of the world and not just like community are a misunderstanding of what universities are. And what the best university for them is. The best university for the for the local community is a university that plays in the world league, the big time university, not a small time bush league.
[0:22:02] Speaker 1: Steve, hold on hold on. I I want to ask David to to say something about the point you're making because to me David, this was a major theme in your book, the tension between the folks at the university who tend to to have excellence and merit as as guiding stars and the folks outside the university here in Hawaii, who often times look first and foremost to relationships and common heritage and and that sort of thing as as values that they hold the highest. Could you say a few things about that and and Steve's comment?
[0:22:31] David Yount: First, let me say that I agree with what Steve said. He's quite right about the University of London and other such places. Um secondly, the issue that he raises here is really one of the largest issues faced in the state of Hawaii. It's posed here as a question what kind of a university do we want to have? Do we really want to have a world class university or would we be happy to have a state college? Uh state colleges are a lot cheaper than world class universities, maybe we could get along with a state college. And this reflects the larger issue of what kind of a state do we want to have. If we look at the next century, are we going to have a world class state or are we going to be one of those beautiful places like Tahiti, which is kind of a backwash? Now, I love Tahiti, it's a beautiful place to visit, and I like to be world class and so there's there's a real question here before the people of Hawaii, what kind of a place do we want to be in the next century? If we want to be a world class place, we need a world class university.
[0:23:35] Speaker 1: Let me get Stewart's thoughts on this then Steve I'll get right back to you, Stewart.
[0:23:39] Stuart Ho: I uh I I'm not sure that the uh the state government and especially the legislature has made up its mind that it wants a a world class university. I mean, obviously, you hear the rhetoric and you've heard it for the last 30 years uh that we want to be a world class, we want to have a world class University of Hawaii. Uh uh the actions belie the words. the uh uh and yet uh this is one area where I think there's there's a lot of blame uh that can be passed on to a lot of lot of people. The um the faculty I think um has not made a done a very good job of explaining itself uh to the uh to the state government. Uh and the state government on the other hand has not done a very good job of trying to harmonize uh the uh their their reduced circumstances, which by the way have not been just is not a recent occurrence. It's been going back since Harlon Cleveland's time that the level of state support for the uh university uh in proportion to in proportion to the whole um uh has really gone on on a on a sort of a downhill trend. But the uh um I don't think that I don't think that we've uh that the political leadership and the university leadership and certainly the the campus leadership uh have ever gotten together and attempted to to make a judgment as to what do they mean by excellence in education and so forth and so on.
[0:25:07] Speaker 1: Well and maybe part of the problem is that we just assume that everyone in Hawaii shares this goal of excellence and puts it higher than some other goals and David, I think you commented that you found yourself in meetings occasionally where you were defending excellence and things that at least at one time you thought didn't have to be defended.
[0:25:44] David Yount: I I think it shows you how naive I was that I that I found it surprising that I had to make those arguments in favor of excellence. But Stewart's exactly right, the state hasn't made up its mind yet, and it's a valid issue that that the state needs to consider. Uh we're a small state, we have only about 1.1 million people. Can we really afford to have a world class university? Uh that's that's a good question. And on the other hand, if we have a world class university, what can it do for us as a state? What can it do for our citizens?
[0:26:05] Speaker 1: So we should really have that that conversation, make a decision and behave accordingly as opposed to stumbling along the way we have.
[0:26:11] David Yount: Yeah, that's exactly the point. As you as you point out in your book, Price of Paradise, informed dialogue is a service to the community. I'm delighted that people are discussing these kinds of issues and I'm particularly delighted that Stewart and I believe Jerry Burris wrote the editorial, have decided to focus on these kinds of issues.
[0:27:16] Speaker 1: It has been said in the editorial in the advertiser and it was said in the editorial in the Honolulu magazine, uh saluting the UH press, this first-class operation we have here for publishing this book and for having the courage to publish this book and both the uh publications and we hope there isn't retaliation against Mr. Hamilton and the press for having spoken the truth which is what his mission is. His mission is to publish the truth but he in Hawaii you publish the truth and you get wapped and that's what we really worry about. Okay, Steve thank you. Thank you for your call. We really appreciate it. And you know folks along the lines of what Steve is saying in terms of uh whether we'll go for excellence in some areas as opposed to trying to do everything very well. It'll be interesting to see David just what happens um over the next few weeks. I'm told some announcements are going to be made in terms of these so-called vertical cuts.
[0:29:21] David Yount: Yes, I've heard the same thing and I I think we're all trembling, one thing is if it's our department or our program.
[0:29:28] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's go to John on Maui. Good morning John.
[0:29:31] Caller: Yes, good morning and this question is probably uh for Professor Yount. Uh one of the things certainly that's held out to faculty for good day's work and community service and research and and of course teaching is the promotion system and I don't know if your book addresses the question of promotions and I would certainly like to get your perspective uh on whether or not you think it works well, whether it doesn't work so well.
[0:29:54] David Yount: Uh I address it in great detail as part of my effort to describe the culture of the university and I give examples of people who have really remarkable records of achievement, have won all kinds of awards and yet couldn't get promoted to the off to the staff of professor, perhaps they remain associate professor. Uh I give those kinds of examples to illustrate what the system is and then let the reader decide, well, do we want to recognize other things besides the research paper as as a bonafide uh basis for for promotion? B, 10 years from now we may not have tenure. Right now I'm really glad I have it. We were talking of we were talking about retaliation a few minutes ago. Uh, tenure and academic freedom are really the things that permit me to write a book of this type. If we didn't have the tenure system, I could lose my job, uh, I wouldn't be willing to take that risk. I found the responsibilities with the tenure system, I know that that I have academic freedom to some extent I can publish a book like this.
[0:35:01] Speaker 1: Okay. John, thank you for your call. I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. We call it Pop Radio. My name is Randy Roth and I'm here with David Yount, a professor of physics at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, who until recently was vice president for research and graduate education for the University of Hawaii. He's the author of a book called Who Runs the University, and it's a book that everyone who cares about the future of Hawaii should buy when it's available. And we'll talk a little bit more later about when and where it will be available. Also, Stewart Ho, who's the chairman of the Board of Capital Investment Company and Gannett Pacific Corporation. He's a former chairman of the UH Board of Regents. If you would like to ask a question or make a brief comment, just call us at 955-8821. Neighbor Islanders just add a 1-800 so that your number is 1-800-955-8821.
[0:35:53] Speaker 1: Well, David, we've got well, let's go to another caller. Lay, I think it is from Honolulu. Good morning. Is it Lay?
[0:35:59] Caller: No, it's Aleya.
[0:36:00] Speaker 1: Aleya. Okay.
[0:36:01] Caller: I have a a comment and a question concerning the ethnic makeup of both the academic staff and the um administrative staff at the university. First of all, um I don't know how it's represented in your book Dr. Yount, but I find that locally, I think there's a radical problem of discrimination by um uh lumping uh a race with others of ethnicity. The Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Hawaiian, Filipino are ethnicities. Caucasian is a race. And as I said, to lump uh Greek Americans, Italian Americans, uh Spanish Americans, German Americans, French Americans, etc. as the race, I think it's radically um discriminatory in a, in a, in a uh land where in in Hawaii, where everyone seems to be very proud of their specific ethnicity. More specifically to the my question is that it seems to me that I I think your book could is is is excellent from what I understand, obviously, we haven't read it yet but I think what we need to do is expand the cultural issues that um really the forces that go to make up who staff the university, both academically and in terms of administrative staff uh rather than, I think, a denigrate the so-called Caucasians from being uh faculty members. I think we should look around and see the fact that we have many people in the state who are um ethnically Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc. uh who have excellent degrees, somehow they don't seem to choose to go on to take PhDs and join the university. I don't think it's because there is lack of opportunity, I think it's because there is obviously as you say there is power and and money and status outside the university. The value of the university is to control it for other groups of people and it's a synecdoche. It's what the Chinese would call a rice bowl. So the staffing at the university as I said I think we're we're we're flex some of these cultural issues and I think it should be opened up in terms of discussion. As I said the staffing the staffing's mostly Japanese women, um so called Caucasian women have very hard time.
[0:38:00] Caller: our discriminated against it being terms of administrative levels. And if there are so-called Caucasian academics, I think it's because the others want to be judges, lawyers, doctors, etc. because there's more money and power there.
[0:38:10] Randall Roth: Lea, let's let's get David's reaction to to what you're saying and and David, let me let me read just one sentence from your book because I think it relates to what Lea was was just saying. Gender bias is uh exacerbated by the influence of Japanese culture and society which is particularly pervasive in contemporary state government and which uh finds a woman's participation in power in power mongering unseemly. And I didn't read that very well, but I think you're in agreement with at least part of what Lea was just saying, aren't you?
[0:38:43] David Yount: Yes, I am. I'm trying in my book to describe the situation as it exists. So for instance, the advertiser has a table where the ethnicity the ethnicity of the faculty and the students and the community and so on is given. Um, I personally would prefer that race had nothing to do with recruitment. I think that recruitment should not be based on race or gender. It should be based on qualifications. But there are people who think that requiring excellence in the recruiting process is a kind of code word for having biases against certain groups. And so those issues those issues are out there being discussed, and I've tried to point out that the issues are there without necessarily passing judgment on them.
[0:39:35] Randall Roth: uh, Stewart, as as I read the book, um, one of the themes that I thought kept popping up was um one related to race. And yet, you know, I know David uh isn't putting in his own thoughts in terms of of this race ought to do that or shouldn't do this or what have you. Uh what was your reaction as you read the book so far as the the question of race is concerned?
[0:39:57] Stuart Ho: I didn't have a, I didn't have a particular reaction. I mean, um about it one way or the other. I perhaps it's because uh race has always been an issue that that runs through everything in the in the in the islands. Um
[0:40:09] Randall Roth: And what he was describing struck you, it it it rang true for you?
[0:40:12] Stuart Ho: Yeah. Mhm. Okay.
[0:40:14] Randall Roth: Lea, thank you for your call. We're going to have to move on. We have Marvin in Kailua. Good morning, Marvin.
[0:40:20] Caller: Uh, good morning. I'll make my comments very uh short. Uh, actually, it's a question. Uh first of all, I'm really glad there's some truth telling. It's nice to hear truth. Um, the question is uh this, the University of Hawaii has a reputation or at least a perception of being a mediocre in an academic sense. Uh, mediocrity seems to characterize the perception that I have and that I see in the community of the university. I'd be very interested in how the issues that uh your your author uh describes, has an impact either on the perception or the reality of academic mediocrity at UH. And I'm going to sign off.
[0:40:58] Randall Roth: Good Good question and David, that was one of my uh or one of the parts of your book that I found most interesting. Could you talk a little bit about that?
[0:41:05] David Yount: Well, first I should observe that the Manoa campus is really a mixture of a university, such as you'd find in the University of California system, a Berkeley, UCLA and a state college such as uh Fresno State or one of those state colleges. And therefore, the range of excellence that you find on our campus is enormous. Uh we have remedial courses, what essentially amount to remedial courses in our college curriculum, but at the other end, in fields like oceanography or astronomy, uh we're among the top several universities in the world. I was told by Don Hall, the director of the Institute for Astronomy, that we have now reached the point where only CalTech and Princeton are ahead of us in terms of our faculty in astronomy. Of course, we're way ahead in terms of our resources, our facilities.
[0:42:01] David Yount: But by now the quality of our faculty in astronomy, in terms of their publications, the citations, people referring to their articles, we're right up there with CalTech and Princeton.
[0:42:10] Randall Roth: What about the undergraduate program? I I think you agreed with the caller that the perception in the community is that it's mediocre except maybe when the sports teams are winning or something like that?
[0:42:21] David Yount: Well, the as I say, it covers an enormous range. The perception tends to be based on the the lowest common denominator. It's true that there are courses that are that are really remedial courses. It's true that there are students that are really not prepared for college. And in that same classroom, you're going to have students who will go to MIT for graduate school, they'll go to CalTech for graduate school, and they're all in the same classroom.
[0:42:49] Randall Roth: Okay. Uh let's go to John in Honolulu. Good morning, John.
[0:42:53] Caller: Hello. Yes, this is Don Lubit. And I used to be a professor and administrator at the university back in the 60s and I wanted to bring attention to an article in a journal it's making the jump into cyberspace, a discussion on distance learning paradigm shift required for the 21st century by John Blumhart, director Educational Media Center, Honolulu Community College and this is in the latest issue of Okay Don, you're going to have to get to your question or comment. We've got a bunch of people waiting. Okay, well this is the in the latest issue of Education at a distance, the distance learning monthly publication, United States Distance Learning Association, and I just wanted to bring this to the attention of the uh panel in the radio radio audience because this is an excellent article to read, giving direction that the university system can and must go because of the changes in communications and education and it should be available I would assume at the university library.
[0:43:55] Randall Roth: Okay. Don, thank you very much. You know, listening to Don's comment made me think about uh West Oahu. Uh I'm really curious what's going on here because from from my uh vantage point in one of the things David, that your book has convinced me of is that I really can't see at any given time what's really happening. But it looks to me like um the Manoa campus is more or less being uh disassembled, disassembled. And we're talking about building another campus out at at West Oahu which which to me, based on what I have available to me just doesn't make sense at all and I'm wondering what's actually happening what a governor on the one hand says we're going to go into high technology and universities without walls and we don't need to build buildings anymore. But then on the other hand, is 110% seemingly behind the idea of a brand new campus at at West Oahu. What are your thoughts on that and then I'm really anxious to hear Stewart's because I've got a feeling that that Stewart may have a different uh viewpoint than I do.
[0:44:57] David Yount: So far, Stuart and I have agreed on practically everything and for me, that's a kind of a reality check. When he says it was like this 30 years ago, he's telling me you got it right. It's that's the way it is. Uh in terms of the uh Manoa campus being disassembled and and West Oahu, I'm reminded of what Al Simone used to tell me almost daily. He said you only know 1/10th of what I know and I only know 1/10th of what's going on. Do I know what's going on at West Oahu? No, I don't. In my book, I've I've dedicated one section to West Oahu. I've traced the history of it. It's been in business, I suppose, nearly 30 years and have uh 20 years anyway. How far have we come in 20 years? They're still in a parking lot at Leeward Community College. Now I mentioned earlier that Manoa is kind of a mixture of a real university and a state college. And if we had a state college at West Oahu, then Manoa could focus on being the UC and West Oahu could focus on being the Hawaii State University and that might make a lot of sense.
[0:46:04] Randall Roth: But that's not what they're talking about doing, is it?
[0:46:06] David Yount: That's not necessarily, they're talking about moving the whole thing over there and I've heard people say just tear Manoa down and start over. Uh I thought the site had been selected and we went through a long process of looking at number of sites. The board, I attended a number of board meetings where that was discussed, I said okay, they worked hard on this, they found a site. And then suddenly I read in the paper, no, that's off, we're doing something else now. And I don't know the answer.
[0:46:31] Randall Roth: Let me pass this one off to Stewart and Stewart I'll I'll preface this by saying I I happened to run into the governor the other day. We had Supreme Court Justice uh Kennedy out at the law school and we had a reception at Washington Place. And and I asked the governor if he would be willing to come on this radio show and talk about West Oahu and you would have thought I pulled a gun on him. I've never had anyone pull away from me and leave a conversation quite as quickly. I I have the feeling that there are considerations that that we simply we being people who rely upon the newspaper and and TV reports and that sort of thing don't really understand. What's going on?
[0:47:08] Stuart Ho: I don't know. Uh I I think that uh I think what may possibly be going on is is is got something to do with the city's plan uh that and and the state's uh uh agreement that all the growth on this island, uh if there is growth as large as they they they think it will be will be toward that area and therefore they ought to have this West uh West Oahu College. But I I think the I think I I was taken by the discussion on this earlier about the um about why West Oahu and and and and and and uh uh David's comment on the uh um the California State System. We have never we've never accomplished um um a um uh a gradation if you will of uh of intellect among our kids uh with respect to the where they ought to be going to school. If you talk to a lot of students and I have over the years, they'll either say one or two things, uh you ask them how things are at school and they'll say if they're at Monoa and they'll say either it's too hard or it's too easy. And basically what that means is that because you have such a huge or very wide range of intellect um and and students attending, uh the professor, the instructor, uh has got to uh pitch his uh his class uh for that wide range of intellect. So some of the kids in the class are going to be bored because it's too easy, and others are going to be struggling because it's too hard. Now other states have uh have solved this well long ago, but uh somehow the solution of of of of uh segregating uh um um people by by aptitude um um uh is a political problem that nobody wants to deal with. And yet, the people we're doing a great disservice to are the kids.
[0:48:53] Randall Roth: I'm I'm reminded of of the controversy in the DOE as to whether you have some sort of special program for kids that are are especially bright. Um a lot of controversy there. Uh I want to remind listeners that this is the Price of Paradise Radio Show. My name's Randy Roth. I'm here talking with David Yount, the author of a brand new book called Who Runs the University and Stewart Hoe, who is the chairman of the board of Ganep Pacific Corporation and a former chairman of the UH Board of Regents. If you would like to uh ask a question or make a brief comment, our number is 9558821 and if you tuned in late and would like to hear the show in its entirety, tonight at 8:00 p.m., KIFO 1380 a.m. the entire show will be rebroadcast. Uh want to tell listeners very briefly that there's been a a bit of a glitch in the production of the book. I guess the the binding or something like that uh fell behind schedule. But as I understand it David, they're going to be flying in uh the first 2500 copies and so they're going to be here what in about two weeks?
[0:49:55] David Yount: In the next two or three weeks. Let me mention something about the glitch. It's a good example of the kind of thing I discuss in my book. There was a contract between the university and the people that make the covers for the book and the procurement and property management office allowed that contract to lapse and it took 5 weeks to reinstate the contract and the UH Press had four books, four different titles in the pipeline when that happened and my book happened to be one of them. Just happened to be one of them. So that cost us five weeks. Now to try to make up for lost time, uh Bill Hamington is going to airship at extra expense of course, he's going to airship 2500 volumes to the state. He hopes that will last until the ship arrives within another 5,000 or so.
[0:50:40] Randall Roth: And and here's I guess the suggestion. People who would like to be first in line to get one of those 2500, and and folks, my hunch is that they're going to sell 25,000 in the first couple of months. If you want to be first in line, you should call one of your bookstores or go down there and get your name on on their list or maybe call the UH press and and the number I have and I got this from the article that the Star Bulletin ran uh 9568255 and I'm sure they're in the newspaper uh or in the um the phone directory, the UH Press. So there are going to be about 2500 copies available in uh a couple of weeks. And then I'm told around March 21st, uh they plan to have many, many copies available. Well, we have a couple people have been waiting very patiently on the line. We'll take them and then uh have our guests uh sum up their thoughts on this topic. Let's first go to Jim in Honolulu. Good morning, Jim.
[0:51:34] Caller: Hello. Uh, you uh university think about having a vertical cut. I don't know who decides vertical cut and what it's a priority and uh to be placed on the vertical cut, I think it's very important. President alone cannot decide it. I think faculty, president, and uh students and community for that matter should be participated at deciding vertical cut and priority in that uh area. Thank you.
[0:52:00] Randall Roth: Okay. And and just so our listeners understand, um the so-called horizontal cutting, that's the belt tightening where where all of the units are asked to uh to spend a little bit less money. And what the Board of Regents is uh talking about doing right now are some so-called vertical cuts where they lop off entire units of the university. Let's go to Susan in Honolulu. Good morning, Susan.
[0:52:22] Caller: Uh, good morning. I'd like Mr. Hoe and Dr. Yount to please go back to a question that came up earlier that they didn't address at all. Uh, there really is a lot of um people who of um who are Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc., who have degrees from this university, other universities on the mainland uh who could um like Mr. Hoe himself who has uh you know, JD degree. Uh, many people could go on and get a PhD and teach at the university and they don't. Uh, I know the JD is required for the law degree law school and MDs of course who teach locally at the medical school. But, aside from those people, I mean, there's a lot of people here who could certainly have chosen to take up university teaching and haven't. I mean, my own perception is that there's just not considered politics and and money involved and I'd like both of you to please directly address this issue instead of as I said, focusing on the issue of so-called Caucasians being at the university teaching and and somehow it's, you know, they're the bad guys. Thank you.
[0:53:23] Randall Roth: Okay, uh, Stewart Hoe.
[0:53:25] Stuart Ho: Well, I I think first of all, I think we would all agree that that uh um we want the best uh possible um uh people uh within our means to pay uh for those services to be teaching our kids. I mean, I I don't think I don't think there's anybody who um uh would disagree with that. And uh uh the best way to go about achieving that uh end is is a um uh is to subscribe to a meritocracy. And I think that's what uh happens uh at the at all universities across the country. Now, one of the one of the things about about universities that is very little uh understood outside the campus, uh is the very nature of universities and university faculties. And um and uh uh I mean, this is a tradition that goes back to the monks. Um the uh uh and I I mentioned this earlier, the the inability uh or the lack of of of of of uh communication that goes on about the university and the university faculty's inability to to describe its its function and why things are the way they are, and why Albert Einstein uh would have to be would be called down to the legislature to explain why he only teaches a one class a a a week and and 25 kids at that Only one class a week? Uh maybe maybe uh no classes a week. Those are the kinds of things that that are uh very little understood by um uh people outside the campus and I and I a lot of there's a really a lot of explanation as due on this. I have an awful lot of people that that assume that I'm in the classroom 40 hours a week.
[0:55:05] Randall Roth: David Yount.
[0:55:05] David Yount: I, of course I agree completely with what Stuart said. I would add just one thing which is that there are many people from Hawaii who get advanced degrees and take jobs at faculties and they're at the University of Arizona, they're at Princeton, they're at MIT. And I would probably I would guess that we probably have as many uh professors from Hawaii leaving the state as we have coming in. Uh our state is is well educated and we produce lots of talented people. And they're out there in the national pool getting jobs just like everybody else.
[0:55:39] Randall Roth: Okay. Um, let's go to Joe in Honolulu. Good morning, Joe.
[0:55:43] Caller: Hi, this is um, if you were to look at the UH, you'd never guess that there was a budget problem judging from all the buildings that are being built, sidewalks that are being rearranged, signs being put up, etc., and so forth. I mean, how do we how do we uh divide this budget problem from these these kind of capital expenditures?
[0:56:03] Randall Roth: Okay, David Yount.
[0:56:04] David Yount: I think the that first answer Joe is that they are divided. The capital improvements budget is entirely separate from the operating budget. The new building for Pacific Ocean Science and Technology, for example, a $48 million building. Uh the funding for that was arranged beginning about 10 years ago.
[0:56:25] Caller: Payment, that is true, but I'm talking about things like sidewalks that were perfectly good, being rebuilt, being being brought up to the university. Intranally cost $100,000. I I recognize these buildings are sort of a different thing, but it just seems that there's so much going on on campus.
[0:56:41] David Yount: Um, again, some of the repairs and maintenance, sidewalks, whatever, uh money has been provided in previous years. Uh during Simone's administration was averaging about $12 million a year. I understand we're now spending less than $2 million a year on repairs and maintenance.
[0:57:00] Speaker 1: That's an amazing statistic when you think that the value of the physical plant must be more than a billion dollars.
[0:57:05] Speaker 2: You know, and and when you talk about capital expenditures, one of the the more and there's so many interesting parts of your book. I I I feel like I'm I'm in a rut here, saying one of the more interesting or fascinating parts. But when you are talking about the the special events arena, the the sports palace as some people call it. Uh and how it was a political thing and it was presented on a take it or leave it sort of basis, it's not as though the university had the option to take that money and spend it on a library or anything like that.
[0:57:34] Speaker 1: That's right. One of our highest priorities of course is the Hamilton Library. And yet, instead of adding to the Hamilton Library what we called Phase Three, uh we built an arena and you could ask, why that? But I think the arena has been a tremendous success. They're filling it up routinely. They set a record last year for uh women's volleyball, a national record, uh which uh again this year they they beat the record again. So, I think uh looking back, the arena was a tremendous success.
[0:58:05] Speaker 2: In my day, it was the baseball stadium.
[0:58:07] Speaker 1: Exactly.
[0:58:07] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, we're getting down just to the to the last few minutes and uh I want to give each of you an opportunity to to add what needs to be added or to emphasize what needs to be emphasized. Uh David Yount.
[0:58:21] David Yount: Well, first I want to thank you, Randy, for giving me this opportunity. I I'm delighted to have the dialogue. I hope that people will respond to it and recognize that that we're all interested in making the university better, making the community better. That's what we're here for and I hope it's received in that way.
[0:58:39] Speaker 2: You know, David, uh something you mentioned this morning and it's the nicest compliment I've ever received on the price of paradise books. You said that in a way your book might be looked at as an in-depth version of our chapter on the University of Hawaii and you and I were both commenting, wouldn't it be great if somebody would do an in-depth version of each and every one of those chapters.
[0:59:00] David Yount: I agree. I I think you've laid out in the first volume about 38 subjects which could be books. Uh and one that I'd certainly like to see somebody write is about the Department of Education. I'm not qualified to write that book but I wish somebody would write it.
[0:59:16] Speaker 2: Uh we're looking right now and at a minimum sometime fairly soon, we're going to have uh a show on that. Stewart Ho, anything uh that you'd like to add or emphasize?
[0:59:25] Stuart Ho: Only that uh I think the book uh David's book is timely and that uh I hope that the reaction and and the state the state government will not be to hunker down in the trenches and and try to try to explain it off. Um uh everything he says is true and the effects are are are are are are detrimental and true and accurate. And uh um it comes at a it comes at a timely point I think because um uh the university I think is at risk, it has been at risk uh for many years, but uh today it's even even at a greater risk than ever has in the past.
[1:00:01] Speaker 2: It sure feels that way to me. Uh you hope they won't hunker down. What do you think will happen?
[1:00:09] David Yount: David David chuckles nervously.
[1:00:11] Stuart Ho: I think I think they'll hunker down.
[1:00:14] Speaker 2: Um how could we how could we somehow prevent that? How can this be pushed in a constructive direction where this book really leads to wonderful positive developments, David?
[1:00:24] David Yount: One of the interesting things that happened to me this week is I got a call from a faculty member who wanted to know how to work with the legislature. How does it work? My feeling is if more people understand the system and how it works, they'll be able to take part in the process and actually accomplish something.
[1:00:41] Speaker 2: Another part of the book I love, there are things that I now understand that I had no, I didn't even realize I didn't understand until I read the book. I now understand and my reaction was to want to get in and and try to to change some things. Hopefully, uh that power that knowledge will be power for other people, too.
[1:00:58] David Yount: Yeah, knowledge is power.
[1:01:00] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, this has been for me at least a a particularly interesting conversation with David Yount and Stewart Ho. Stewart is the chairman of the board of Ganet Pacific Corporation, former chairman of the UH Board of Regents. David is a professor of physics at the University of Hawaii and has many, many, many accomplishments but the big thing right now is that this fellow just wrote a book that you really want to get, you want to read, you want to share it with uh your kids on the mainland or anyone else that cares about the future of Hawaii. Our producer is Suzy Roth. Our Director of Operations for Hawaii Public Radio is Jeff Ilardy. For the next two weeks, we're going to take a real close look at the media in Hawaii. Specifically, we're going to ask, are they fulfilling their obligation to the people of Hawaii? Next week, we're going to take a a particularly close look at TV journalism, that part of the media. Wally Zimmerman from KITV Channel 4 and Kent Baker from KHON Channel 2 will be here to help hold their feet to the fire. We have academic Jerry Catto from the University of Hawaii. In two weeks, we're going to focus on the press. John Flannigan, the editor and publisher from the Honolulu Star Bulletin will be here and I think we're going to have Larry Fuller and Jim Gatty from the advertiser as well. To hold their feet to the fire, we have Tom Brislin from the University of Hawaii. You've been listening to the Price of Paradise radio show. I'm Randy Roth. Aloha.
[1:06:03] Speaker 2: state. It's exactly right, the state.
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